What's so great about Wally West?

I admire his high metabolism and appreciate women who have it because it makes drawing food porn more easy

>>87700573
Barry also has high metabolism. It's just a generic speedster power.

>>87700561
Barry is bland, and Wally was the Flash for decades before being sidelined.

>>87700561
They grew up while he was starring in the book.

Wally's run invented the Speed Force as the concept we know it.

More than that, people grew up with Wally, and Wally himself grew with age: he went from being a young man suddenly having to take over the role of The Flash, to eventually having a loving family.

In particular, Wally's run also emphasized family and built up the Flash family.

Barry's initial run established the villains that would define The Flash, but Wally (via Waid and Johns) established the modern feel that most comic people associate with The Flash.

>>87700561

Wally was the flash for a long time. Also, he had the whole "overcome his weaknesses to step up to fill his mentors shoes" thing going for him, along with some other really great arcs.

>>87700601
See, this is all just meaningless buzzwords. It's clear you prefer Wally and think he's more interesting; why do you?

>>87700610
Waid invented the Speed Force, Wally was just around for it to happen. Barry and Jay invented the vast majority of their actual powers. Almost all the relevant Flash villains are from Barry. The costume and the theme of The Flash are Barry's. Why is the Speed Force more important than all of those contributions?

If the answer is seriously just "read Wally first" then that's stupid. Why get onto people for liking Barry when they probably read/saw him first before Wally?

>>87700620
Flash of Two Worlds did this first. It wasn't a new thing with Wally, even if they made a longer arc out of it. The Return of Barry Allen was over by Flash 80. Are those first 80 comics above Barry's hundreds just because Wally was a shitty Flash who had to stop being shitty?

He runs so fast it makes his hoohaa do a slippy no no

>>87700743
best reason so far desu

>>87700698
Barry Allen was a hyper bland "generic superhero" until Mark Waid brought him back in his run on Flash, which allowed him to stand out when juxtaposed against Wally (a character who actually had some character) and thus gained a personality

Barry Allen having anything resembling a personality is 100% an invention of the post-Wally West Flash paradigm, much like how Hal Jordan didn't become a total sub-Guy Gardner knucklehead until Geoff Johns brought him back. It's writers playing favorites with the characters they grew up reading, like how Bendis kept trying to make Spider-Woman seem important

I don't know about Wally or Barry being the best, but making them so absurdly fast has ruined storytelling for Flash in my opinion.

He's an actual character, which comics Barry is not.

>>87700932
Flash has been lightspeed since literally the very first issue of Jay Garrick's comic. So no, unless Flash has literally never been good you're stupid.

>>87700975
You don't seem to know what the word character means.

>>87700816
What's so bland about Barry that isn't bland about Wally? They have the same morality, ended up living basically the same life (superhero married to a reporter in a blue collar area that loves them). Wally, as a matter of fact, has no facet to his life BESIDES those things, whereas at least Barry has a cool interesting in science.

They've both been through the tragedy ringer, they've both grown as characters from the trials and tribulations their villains put them through. Is Wally a not generic character just because his humor is more modern than Barry's was in the 60s? Because Wally is such a close rip off of Barry that I don't get it.

The time when Wally was most different (the Baron and WML era) is less recommended than when he himself just became a more generic hero (Waid and Johns). Anything that's bland about Barry is just about as bland about Wally. Unless Speed Force is your only excuse, in which case Speed Force is just as much about Barry these days as Wally.

Barry Allen is the Jonathan Joestar of the Flashes. He's not particularly interesting, but it'd be missing something without him. Everything people attribute to The Flash is introduced or fleshed out after he dies, but he's still a respected character. Before 2009, it'd be rare to find someone who outright loathed Barry Allen.

>>87700561

He was the Flash when I was 12

>>87700978
Yeah and now they've really gone many times past the speed of light to the point of absurdity.

>>87701383
You're gawking at numbers when that's not the point. The Flash will always be fast enough to save the day. The level of speed is just for fun and scale. And sometimes to show improvement in their abilities.

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>>87700561
Hoooo boy.

Personally I find Barry Allen really formulaic. From his generic "dead mom" origin to "villain of the week", there is nothing he offers that you can't find with other ones.

With Wally, you have a viewpoint to superhero community. He GROWS UP in this clique, the guy's another uncle is Green Lantern, he spent a lot of time in Wayne Mayor as a kid, all Batkids love him etc. So when he grows up and joins the League, watching him making himself being accepted by Superman and Wonder Woman is actually pretty damn good. He grows up a lot in pages and faces a lot of challenges, something Barry never does.

Also Wally being flawed isn't a bad thing, the books never excuse his mistakes. He betters himself at the end of each challenge and that's inspiring. Barry's mistakes are handwaved almost every fucking time.

He's also a pretty easy going guy (unlike Barry) so his books are filled with friends and allies I enjoy reading about.

And last, everything you like about Flash is first introduced by Wally. He defined the modern Flash, so it's hard to write him out of Flash's lore.

>>87701486
Wally doesn't really know any batkid besides Dick. He's had like one conversation with Barbara in his entire life and I don't think any with Jason.

Wally's also pretty formulaic. No dead mom but every story is "power of love/lightning rod" along with the Villains of the Week.

Barry has arguably the most famous character flaw of all time in being late. He screwed up all the time. I never got this "Barry is perfect" thing. It just seems so made up by people who don't read any comics with him in them. He's retrospectively treated as flawless because of his sacrifice, but that has nothing to do with his character. Even when he was doing the deed he had his doubts.

I like The Rogues, the costume, the science theme, Gorilla Grodd, Reverse Flash, the cool uses of super speed as a power, the blue collar city beloved hero and all sorts of things about Barry that Wally stole.

I agree you can't just write Wally out of Flash lore like they did. That was never my point -- he was clearly important. But, just like you have here, I see people make lots of mistaken and downright hypocritical opinions of Barry compared to Wally while screaming to the heavens that Wally is the best Flash.

Wally's everything is a very good imitation of Barry, with the added Speed Force chicanery. If all you like is Speed Force stuff then ok, but Barry's also, by the pure retcon that is the Speed Force, super involved with Speed Force chicanery.

>>87701486
Well, keep in mind that the dead mom origin is only a few years old. For decades, Barry had two living and loving parents and chose to be a superhero solely because it was the right thing to do. I think that's an important thing to note.

I'm pretty sure you made a thread like this a few weeks ago, except it was just you ranting about Wallyfags.

>>87701620
>Wally doesn't really know any batkid besides Dick. He's had like one conversation with Barbara in his entire life and I don't think any with Jason.

Wally supported Jason when he first became Robin, and he's REALLY good friends with Barbara. They worked together in JL for a while too. He helped out Tim while he was in Keystone for a while. In short, all Batfamily has a relationship with him. Nightwing goes without saying. Only Damian has no established relationship with him.
> No dead mom but every story is "power of love/lightning rod" along with the Villains of the Week.
Power of love happens at very important moments, not all the time. He's more of a "nakama power" guy, which is rare in western comics.

> He screwed up all the time.
And he never faced any actual consequences for it. That's my problem with Barry.

I think what really divides fans is that Wally has better stories. Barry tries to imitate them in new 52 and Rebirth but it's just not as good. Godspeed was Hunter Zolomon rip off but he lacked everything that made Hunter awesome yada yada.

Barry is good but he's not really "all that" compared to Wally. He can't add the emotional weight Wally does in his stories but Wally can deal with his enemies just fine.

>>87701687
Being around when Oracle existed doesn't mean he got along with her. They wouldn't even qualify as acquaintances. Wally was always more fond of Starfire when it came to Dick's girlfriends.

Wally and Linda's relationship is the basis for almost every Waid story, even when it's not specifically coming back home or whatever.

>And he never faced any actual consequences for it. That's my problem with Barry.

Is this a joke? The last like 8 years of Barry's run was him in constant misery where Iris death sends him into one mistake after another.

Whereas with Wally, at the end of every arc shit goes back to being fixed. Even his kids being killed was undone like 20 issues later by time travel hijinks.

What emotional weight does Wally have that Barry doesn't? That seems like some meaningless platitude.

If you think Wally has better stories, sure, but what is unique to Wally about them? Aside from The Return of Barry Allen -- I'll plainly admit that one obviously only works with Wally. But everything else is just typical Flash/Speed Forcey stuff and love stories, both of which suit Barry perfectly fine.

>>87701673
I'm sure there are lots of Wally West threads. He's a popular character.

I'm not ranting about Wallyfags or anything, I'm asking for folks to tell me why they like Wally so much to the point where they shit on Barry for even existing anymore.

I get liking a character but hell, I don't know how many times I've seen "Barry should die" or "Barry should've stayed dead" and the like.

>>87700604
/thread
Same with TIM DRAKE IS THE BEST ROBIN, KYLE RAYNER IS THE BEST GREEN LANTERN and whatnot.

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Wally grew up and made the flash series move forward with new characters,relationships and drama.Barrys return removed any new flash characters and Barry himself never grew,Buccelato's run had him silently narrating with a voting supporting cast and never really getting a voice of his own,Booth was even worse at this and Geoff johns kept Barry a background character for all of JL so Barry never had a chance to stand out or establish a personality or friends.Waids run is the polar opposite,flash family grew,Wally grew and even after getting kicked down a thousand time always got right back up,I've always felt Wally west is what Peter Parker is to marvel,the young kid who made it big.Look at how many spiderman fans want Peter to have a kid,because Wally proved the young teen hero becoming the responsible dad is just so damn relatable.if you take Barry out of any flash story his character doesn't change and noghing is really lost,Ztards out Wally and he becomes a different man entirely.Ive always felt Barry has the problem miles morales has,he needs to bring down other characters to stand out and even his most notable characteristics are stolen from the previous flash.Geoff johns had the right idea making Barry a stoic take no shit detective but too many writers prefer writing bland man or diet Wally and that's what makes him full

is Flash #54 by Messner-Loebs the best Flash comic of all-time

>>87701763
Flash #0 and maybe DCU Rebirth if you cut out all the non-Flash stuff.

>>87701732
Let's not generalize here. I grew up with Tim and Kyle but for me Dick is my favorite Robin and Guy is my favorite Green Lantern.

>>87701745
I like how you just posted a picture that was Geoff Johns ripping off Barry Allen's feud with Thawne.

I'M GONNA KILL YOUR WIFE AND YOU CAN'T STOP ME

Same shit different artist.

>>87701773
or the issue of Wally in the theater

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>>87701722
> Being around when Oracle existed doesn't mean he got along with her. They wouldn't even qualify as acquaintances. Wally was always more fond of Starfire when it came to Dick's girlfriends.

Anon, you should stop talking about the things you don't know.

> Wally and Linda's relationship is the basis for almost every Waid story, even when it's not specifically coming back home or whatever
Basis? Sure, he develops their relationship and that's not a bad thing. Better than being a non entity like Iris, I guess.
>Is this a joke? The last like 8 years of Barry's run was him in constant misery where Iris death sends him into one mistake after another.
And when he came back from dead, all of those things were forgotten. Nothing of short happened in New 52. His Flashpoint mistake is attributed to Manhattan (even though he gave them the opportunity in the first place)

>What emotional weight does Wally have that Barry doesn't? That seems like some meaningless platitude.
His insecurities? His desire to prove himself? The amount of love he's not afraid of showing to others? DC Rebirth is still fresh dude. What emotional depth any of the New 52 Flash had compared to Wally stories? I'm waiting here.

>If you think Wally has better stories, sure, but what is unique to Wally about them? Aside from The Return of Barry Allen -- I'll plainly admit that one obviously only works with Wally. But everything else is just typical Flash/Speed Forcey stuff and love stories, both of which suit Barry perfectly fine.

You can't tell Chain Lightning with Barry either. Blitz is entirely structured for Wally West's values and invoked by his friend. All best Flash stories (and by proxy, Wally stories) are about Wally and considered best because they effect Wally, they are character driven stories.

>>87701620
So by your reckoning, Bart is the best speedster?

>>87701825
not him, but obviously

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>>87700698
>the theme of The Flash are Barry

>>87700698
>Waid ruined Flash stories forever

>>87700561
He's flawed, he has some pretty good stories, a nice gallery of rogues and has a distinctive voice. Also, it's relatable for most of the folks: he's a big fanboy and often fuck ups things with the best of his intentions because he's impatient as fuck.

>>87701811
Of course they didn't address 30 year old shit when they were introducing what was ostensibly a new character to the audience.

Wally being a flirt with any girl isn't being friends. They never met when she was a Batkid and only very rarely interacted when he was in the JL and she was Oracle. My point stands even if you can find one of the like 3 times they were ever in the same room together.

Why do people think Barry has no insecurities? The dude is awkward and shy -- something Wally's never had problems with. Wally's "proving himself" thing was done by issue 79, like I said.

DC Rebirth is a weird one. That emotional moment was more fan catharsis due to being strung around by DC. That has less to do with who Wally was as a character and more to do with DC being blind idiots and coming around after awhile. I'm not saying Wally doesn't have emotional impact as a character. That'd be silly. What I'm saying is it's not exclusive to him as compared to Barry. The most famous scenes in Flash history are Barry in shock after he killed Thawne and his speech as he died to save the universe. Those are some of the most emotionally heavy moments in comics history, certainly in Flash history.

I'm not saying Wally's a shit character. I'm trying to suss out why the fact that people liking Wally means Barry has to be a "boring" character.

Chain Lightning could easily be done with Barry instead of Wally. All it was was time travel. All you'd have to do is swap out the Crisis on Infinite Earths part with basically any other major event. The vast majority of the story was fighting Cobalt Blue, a perfectly interchangeable villain.

Blitz is itself a ripoff of Barry's old stories, or an homage I guess, if you're being generous. Johns has no subtlety in making Zolomon just another Thawne -- but with a different background.

All the best stories, besides Return of Barry Allen, could swap Wally and Linda with Barry and Iris just fine. That's my point.

Oh, also this >>87700610

>>87701825
Where'd you get that from?

I like Bart plenty but I don't get your point. I think it's obvious I favor Barry, but I like all of them.

>>87701851
Jay was a jock superhero. Nothing but the color scheme and superpowers survived his run.

The Arrowverse, Barry pretty much has bits of Wally's personality.

>>87701962
*in the

>>87701962
Wally has bits of Barry, like his morals and heroic principles.

Hell, TV show Barry isn't like Wally or Barry. Wally was never the whiny, incompetent, irresponsible baby TV Barry is.

>>87701620
>Wally's also pretty formulaic. No dead mom but every story is "power of love/lightning rod" along with the Villains of the Week.

Not really, no. It's more of the "My parents are shit, I always wanted to be with my hero and I'm going to make it. Fuck yes! But I clearly need help of my friends because I screw my life so many times because I just run into the villain of the week and get kicked because, well, I have some very huge insecurities.... Let's chills and make fun stuff for a while, yes?"

But ok, it's as you said.

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>>87701927
>Wally being a flirt with any girl isn't being friends.
Are you a moron? Do you even bother searching for the context of the scene? Wally was very beloved in superhero community, especially in batfamily, and that's a fact. Even though he clashes with Batman a lot, they have a complex relationship beyond that. You should really keep quiet about this because clearly you are not well informed.
> The dude is awkward and shy
which comics rarely acknowledges and lets him get all the pussy.
I will give you this: he really doesn't know how to approach people and keeps things to himself a lot. But that's not going to be a flaw that will be improved on, people around him will chalk it as "barry being barry"

> Wally's "proving himself" thing was done by issue 79, like I said.
no, it really wasn't. you'd know this if you read the books.

>What I'm saying is it's not exclusive to him as compared to Barry.

>what is flash #0.
dude, you clearly didn't read enough wally stories to make conclusions about his character.
>Chain Lightning could easily be done with Barry instead of Wally.
No you couldn't, because main point of that story was about Wally's growth.
> Johns has no subtlety in making Zolomon just another Thawne
Holy shit, if you think Zolomon is Thawne rip-off you are clearly a troll dude.

>>87701994
He used an overly derivative description of Barry and I used one of Wally. There's obviously more intricacies to both of them.

>>87701778
All of this.

>>87702034
I get that the superhero community, aside from maybe Batman, loved Wally. They loved Barry too. That's not really the point. And yes, like I said, you know of one of the few times they've interacted. Kudos? Do you think he's best friends with Hawkman because they had a team up once?

Barry being awkward has been a thing forever, thus the bow ties, the being late, the pun based humor. He's a big science dork, that's as core to his character as anything, and that's plenty to work with, just as much as Wally's insecure "taking over the family business" thing is.

The end of The Return of Barry Allen is Wally getting over being compared to Barry. It comes up a couple times (most notably Blitz), but his usual response is to not even acknowledge it because it's not a problem for him anymore.

Flash #0 is a very sweet one shot comic but it's not a major arc. Barry could just as easily go back in time and give himself a pep talk as a kid, too. It might not be as resounding because Wally had a shitty childhood, but it'd probably work better now with the whole dead mom thing.

The main point of that story is cool speed force flash family shenanigans. What do you mean Wally's growth? Unless you mean that one bit about how he has to try something different from Barry because he isn't Barry, but that's not really a big deal or even an overarching part of the whole story.

Hmmm Zolomon is someone who was initially friendly with The Flash, but felt wronged by his actions and turns to a life of crime, abusing his new super speed powers to cause Flash untold trauma and hardship because he blames the Flash for his ruined life.

Obviously there's shit in the details, Thawne was a bad guy from the get go and a lot more two dimensional, but they serve the same fucking role. Zolomon's whole schtick of beating up and hurting the people closest to Wally because he's faster and more powerful is EXACTLY what Thawne did.

>>87702073
> i know wally all about from wikipedia and general circlejerking: the post

look, it's okay that you are walking around main issues and making up shit to fit into your arguments but you still can't prove barry's new 52 run failing at every aspect of wally and not carrying any of the emotional depth. barry doesn't even have a sidecast, they tried to make him a roommate to hartley (wally's bff) and they did nothing with THAT. that's how lame barry's side cast is.

> aside from maybe Batman

If you read the comics, you would know Batman helped him out at remembering his past and they still respect each other hence why Wally went to him first in rebirth.

It's okay to be uninformed anon.

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>Is there any truth to it?

You understand the issue with asking for an objective answer to a subjective, opinionated question? But I'll take a go at it, none the less.

A lot of people love Wally compared to Barry for the same reason a lot of people love Terry or Dick compared to Bruce. Are they similar? Absolutely. Is the former better than the latter? Not particularly. However there a very specific novelty with comes with the fact that Wally isn't Barry - that Wally isn't the Flash, at least not yet. It's interesting to take a character like Barry who is by his own right whole and complete, strip him of his demeanor, his experience, his talent, his success, and have him crawl, stumble and climb not only back to where he was but have him surpass where he was at the start. That is, in its most bare simplistic sense, the story of Wally West to many of his fans on this board.

Now with that being said it's not impossible to be a fan of both Barry and Wally. Some would argue that Barry doesn't have a personality and that's just petty. But while Barry has character, he certainly doesn't have that "rite of passage" charm that Wally has. When people think of Barry they think the Flash, and not too much else, but when they think Wally they think the kid who wanted to be the Flash, the guy with the chip on his shoulder who as something to prove - to himself if not anyone else. And when you take that goofy, loveable oaf who just tried his hardest live up to his uncle's name, and have him play ball with the big boys like the Justice League and against the rogue gallery, creating the speed force, breaking records and redefining the legacy his uncle started, you capture an essence that people are drawn to in the Flash, an essence of triumph that you really only find with Wally West.

>tfw the one person in the world that only liked The Flash in Baron through Messner-Loebs run, Morrison/Millar and Time Flies

>>87702119
I guarantee you I've read more Wally comics than you. I mean the fact that I can respond to any issue mention with knowledge of what you're talking about shows as much.

Batman knew something was wrong and then fixed it. And he was angry about it, none the less. Batman and Wally do not get along and most of that is on Wally not liking Bruce. Every time the dude mentions him it's either to belittle himself (because insecurity to other heroes is still a major part of his character) or to talk about how fucked up he thinks Bruce is.

Half his post-Teen Titans with Dick involve him talking about how he doesn't want Dick to end up like Bruce, after all. Like that time Dick almost killed the Joker OH WAIT I MUST'VE WIKIPEDIA'D THAT

>>87702157
>It's interesting to take a character like Barry who is by his own right whole and complete, strip him of his demeanor, his experience, his talent, his success, and have him crawl, stumble and climb not only back to where he was but have him surpass where he was at the start. That is, in its most bare simplistic sense, the story of Wally West to many of his fans on this board.

See, I agree that's a good story. But that story is done and told by Flash #79. He's got the girl, he's got the powers, he's overcome the hurdle of living up to his mentor both emotionally and heroically (defeating Barry's ultimate nemesis).

>Now with that being said it's not impossible to be a fan of both Barry and Wally. Some would argue that Barry doesn't have a personality and that's just petty. But while Barry has character, he certainly doesn't have that "rite of passage" charm that Wally has. When people think of Barry they think the Flash, and not too much else, but when they think Wally they think the kid who wanted to be the Flash, the guy with the chip on his shoulder who as something to prove - to himself if not anyone else. And when you take that goofy, loveable oaf who just tried his hardest live up to his uncle's name, and have him play ball with the big boys like the Justice League and against the rogue gallery, creating the speed force, breaking records and redefining the legacy his uncle started, you capture an essence that people are drawn to in the Flash, an essence of triumph that you really only find with Wally West.

See, that's not my issue. I like Wally plenty, have read his runs! He's a great character. My issue is this weird shit where in any Flash thread Wally fans come in, call Barry boring, lame, a Wally rip off and blah blah. I kind of understood it as just bitter tantrums over his erasure. But it's still fucking happening. Anytime Barry cracks a joke he's "RIPPING OFF WALLY." They incessantly say anything people like about TV Barry is just Wally.

>>87702217
....if you read the comics then why are you trying to make up facts?

it's not that i don't like barry allen. far from that. but there are thousands of heroes with barry's dilemmas and wally's story very different compared to them.

>>87702157
>nd when you take that goofy, loveable oaf who just tried his hardest live up to his uncle's name, and have him play ball with the big boys like the Justice League and against the rogue gallery, creating the speed force, breaking records and redefining the legacy his uncle started, you capture an essence that people are drawn to in the Flash, an essence of triumph that you really only find with Wally West.

nailed it.

>>87702236
>See, that's not my issue. I like Wally plenty, have read his runs! He's a great character. My issue is this weird shit where in any Flash thread Wally fans come in, call Barry boring, lame, a Wally rip off and blah blah. I kind of understood it as just bitter tantrums over his erasure. But it's still fucking happening. Anytime Barry cracks a joke he's "RIPPING OFF WALLY." They incessantly say anything people like about TV Barry is just Wally.

But that's true. The fact that Barry is portrayed by man who are in their early twenties show you that they are ripping off from Wally West.
When Barry joined JL, he was a newly married man. Now he's treated like a little child by Bruce in DCEU for no reason other than trying to make him a Wally-lite clone.

>>87702244
I didn't make up anything. You scoffed at me comparing Zolomon to Thawne when that's literally all Johns was doing. Most of Johns' run was bringing Wally's life closer to Barry's. Reverse Flash killing his family and all.

>>87702260
I haven't kept up with DCEU because it has been and still looks like trash, so I can't comment on that.

Barry cracking a joke doesn't make him like Wally. That's inane. Any regular person can crack jokes. But if Barry does it he's suddenly appropriating Wally's rich, totally original history. When it's exactly the fucking opposite.

>>87700561
Literally Wally West made Barry Fallen The Flash.

Is this that same autist who was whining about Barry and Wally both having the name Flash?

>>87702358
Nah I don't care about that. Jay was The Flash first, anyhow, if that was even a thing.

>>87702391
At least you aren't that retard then.
He went a few threads bitching about how Wally and Barry both being called Flash somehow devalues them, that Wally should have different name for no good reason and that them being called the same thing is confusing.

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I can't get into Flash past Nu52. In short I guess I blame Bally. Feels like a big "fuck you" to my childhood. There being two racially different Wallys is fucked up, even as comics go.

No doubt It's only a matter of time before Wally vanishes forever and is permanently replaced for the sake of "diversity".

>>87702404
Dude must not have read many comics. There's been multiple Batmen, Supermen, Green Lanterns and Flashes for ages.

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>>87702434

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>>87702449
We all know who's REALLY to blame, don't we, Eobard.

>>87702260
De-aging an older character means they're ripping off a younger character. Modernizing an old character means they're ripping off a newer character.

When Dick is Robin they're ripping off Tim.
When Barbara is Batgirl they're ripping off Steph.
When Barry is Flash they're ripping off Wally.

Have I missed any yet? This nonsense.

Hey, when Jay was a kid over in E2, were they ripping off Wally there too?

>>87702861
I think he's mostly talking about the process of making movie Barry significantly younger than the rest of the Justice League and kind of like a kid looking up to adults is the exact same vibe Wally had on the JL. He was younger, less experienced, and less respected than everyone else on the team (Except kyle, I guess) and had a lot of insecurity about that.

That seems to be the direction they're going with Miller, which is far closer to Wally from a personality perspective than Barry. It's not just age, but relative age and how it characterizes him.

>>87702861
> When Dick is Robin they're ripping off Tim.
I have never heard of this.

>When Barbara is Batgirl they're ripping off Steph.
Batgirl of Burnside was a poorly written Steph comic, you know this. Larson corrected it so far though.
>When Barry is Flash they're ripping off Wally.
Depending on the context, yes. Like >>87702938 said, Miller being the youngest of the big 7 is Wally's gimmick. Being a good friend to Cyborg is Wally's gimmick. Bruce and Barry are equals on JL and it's actually Bruce who is inspired by Barry for the most of time.

Now Bruce will treat Barry like a new Robin.

>>87702982
>> When Dick is Robin they're ripping off Tim.
>I have never heard of this.
You clearly weren't around when Teen Titans or Young Justice S1 were on the air.

>>87702073
>Flash #0 is a very sweet one shot comic but it's not a major arc. Barry could just as easily go back in time and give himself a pep talk as a kid, too.

I think that's the point. He could have, but he didn't. Wally did, because that's in his character, and it has weight because we know he didn't have a great childhood. You keep saying Barry could do the same things, but he doesnt. That's what makes them different. You can't discount Wally stories just because it's possible Barry could do the same.

>>87703018
Actually, it is VERY out of character for Wally to time travel for personal reasons. He hates time travelling. He only does it to get back to his own time when he gets flung through the time stream, or when someone else is fucking with time and he has to stop them.

That moment only happened because Waid had to do a #0 like everyone else at the time, but had already basically done a Zero Year style story with the first issue of Born to Run.

It's actually far more in Barry's character to go through time for personal reasons.

>>87703018
The point is that Wally West isn't naturally a better character for these kinds of stories. The vast majority of them would work for Barry, too, he was just dead at the time.

They're pretty interchangeable as The Flash aside from a few things, it's just a matter of whether you like science dork or class clown more as a character.

>>87703046
>>87703066

He's been the main Flash again for 7 years now and yet he hasn't given us anything like that.

The most emotional thing happened so far was Wally's return to his life, think about that.

Maybe, just maybe "this could work for Barry too" isn't a good excuse.

>>87703046
He didn't do it voluntary, to be fair.

>>87700561
1) he's not a boring ass scientist

2) he's kind of an underdog, because he has to live up to Barry, but also doesn't want to outshine his legacy

3) >>87700604

4) he was one of the best parts of JL cartoon.

>>87703150
I mean, when your writers are Manapul and Venditti, what do you want?

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>>87700561
-Nostalgia
-He had a legit character arc
-He had to WORK at being as good a Flash as he considered Barry was, it got a little monotonous at times but never got as bad as Bruce bemoaning his parents.
-He was a decent guy.
-He had been a superhero for more than half his life, he grew up in it and was the first of his peers to actually take over from his mentor (barring the odd times Dick did it), this made him unique.

-The kids though were a mistake IMO, maybe they were trying to replicate an Incredibles vibe? I dunno.

I wouldn't call Wally 'better' than Barry but he had more layers than Barry which made for more interesting stories and to be honest I think it shows since when Didio (?) had a boner to bring Barry back & when they did it seemed to be "Yay Barrys back!...now what do we do?" then immediately saddled him with the Mom murder impetus.

I can't say I preferred Barry being dead but I liked his post death role as the hero that EVERYBODY (in comics) missed, even Bruce admired his decency.

I like the Flash Family emphasis on Wally's run and the fact that Family didn't always meant blood relatives but the people that care for you and help you when you most need it.

Wally grew up in a broken home, the West family save for Iris and Ira West were horrible people, and Wally's mom and dad were the worst people. That said Wally could have become a super villain ala Daniel West later on but he didn't, he overcame his shitty home situation and in part it was also thanks to Iris West looking out for him.

What makes Wally different from Barry? Barry is more straightlace and corny and for the longest while he had the bland generic superhero personality (like Mar-Vell) but then they made him more of s geek and a sweetheart.

In comparison Wally was more jaded (and when he became Flash he had more of a reason to be after Barry died and with Iris gone) and he was more sardonic and a bit of a smartass but more willing to joke around than Barry.

Wally also befriended the Rogues, something Barry was not able to do (although I am sure they will give that befriending you bad guys shtick to Barry now in the show and in the New 52).

>>87701620
Shit go read a Flash comic with Wally, because you obviously haven't picked one up.

>>87701811
And Iris was such a non entity and boring generic girlfriend, honestly I liked her better when she came back in Wally's run and when Wally flashbacked about her because the comic then gave us a reason to like her.

>>87701927
>Saying Zolomon is another Thawne

Holy shit KYS

>>87706068
She had a very weird shtick as "the aunt from future" and that was really cool. Hell, her The Queen Mother status was much better than where she is now.

The more I think about it, the more I realize what a great sidecast Wally had. That's something Barry severely lacks in comics.

Like >>87701486 said. Barry was always pretty whitebread.

I always preferred Wally because I liked how flawed he was. He was portrayed as a slacker, a womanizer and he we wasn't completely virtuous. He was also usually funnier and had a more interesting supporting cast.

>>87700816
>how Hal Jordan didn't become a total sub-Guy Gardner knucklehead until Geoff Johns brought him back.
Lies. He already screwed up sometimes in the Silver Age, and his foolhardiness heavily intensified throughout O'Neil and Wolfman's runs. It was less present in Jones run, but that was a more mature, experienced, character growth which, for better or worse, was reverted in GL: Rebirth.

>>87705999
I've read 1 to 247 of Wally's run, and the 90s Morrison, Waid, and Kelly JLA. All the seminal Wally reading.

>>87706094
Different backstories, same roles as characters. Both torture their respective Flash by trying to take their loved ones away, albeit for different reasons. There's a reason Zolomon puts on Thawne's outfit.

>>87706366
>>87706068

Of all things, isn't supporting cast interchangeable? Barry got saddled with the New 52 where DC was explicitly against the supporting cast, but we're getting them back soon.

This is honestly a kind of inane statement. "I like Wally more than Barry because I like Max Mercury and Jesse Quick," is drivel. Those are their own characters.

>>87700561
I believe the saying goes coming out of the wood work. Not word

>>87708751
The problem you are having here to understand is that Barry hasn't and never had any of the qualities that made Wally awesome. No amount of "b-but you could tell those stories with Barry too!" will change the fact that they haven't done anything noteworthy for the last 7 years.

Barry's main sidecast is West family. That's how it is in mainstream media, that's how it is in comics. And Wests besides Wally mostly suck so there is little you can do about it.

Barry needs to focus more on detective work. That's his gimmick and you can do wonders with it.

>>87708914
Saying you like Wally more because DC banned Barry from having a Flash Family supporting cast is ridiculous. It's not like The Flash Family follows Wally wherever he goes, either.

And yeah, Wally had a couple of great runs over TWENTY YEARS. Barry had a good run with the only competent writer who wrote him (Johns) and then he got saddled with mediocre ones. Wally isn't a worse character because Baron's run was shit.

>>87700561
he is white

>>87708914

>And Wests besides Wally mostly suck so there is little you can do about it.


this isn't true.

>>87709145
Barry also had a 20 year long run before dude. Baron's run wasn't shit, it was boring. Wally's entire run until Infinite Crisis was pretty good.
>Saying you like Wally more because DC banned Barry from having a Flash Family supporting cast is ridiculous.
That's called opinion. They banned them to "improve" Barry but yet here we are.

You have absolutely zero argument here at this point. We've given you things why Wally is better and your only counter argument is "BARRY COULD HAVE TOO". He didn't, pronto.
Besides Wally's only sidecast isn't speedsters. There is Piper, McGees, Chunk etc. They have given Piper to Barry's sidecast and did nothing with it either.

>>87709208
OCs like Joe works maybe but Ira was ruined in New 52.

>>87709286
Barry's Silver/Bronze Age comics were some of the best, so that's not the horrible indictment you think it is.

Chunk stopped being a Wally character in Waid's run. He showed up like once afterwards in that single Johns issue. Same with the McGees. Piper is fine in Barry's comic, basically the same character except the being gay thing isn't as big a deal because it's 20 years later.

>>87709375
> This reaching

I entertained your bait enough, dude. You take or you leave.

> Piper is fine in Barry's comic, basically the same character except the being gay thing isn't as big a deal because it's 20 years later.

i'm genuinely questioning whether you read comics or not here.

Wally offered much more variety in the types of story offered.

Since his career started so early in his life we have seen coming of age stories from him, different love stories, stories about the Flash legacy and honouring your elders that paved the way, stories about defining yourself and gaining confidence in ones abilities, stories about distinguishing yourself beyond your role models, stories about petting go of the past, about the transition from young lone hero to mentor for a new generation, stories about forming a family what having children means when you also have huge responsibilities and how those are balanced, stories about coping with your children coming of age and even defying you, possibly being right even.

Barry could maybe do half of these types of stories.

Through Wally's stories we are shown how he earned the mantle, made it his.

Aside from the fact that most of the lore came about during his time. It makes him much more influential.

Barry lost myth status once he came back. His story had an end and his likes would never be seen again, until they were and made everything else lame.

>>87709621
Most of the lore did not come during Wally's run. That's preposterous.

>>87709716

Barry (the character) is only three years older and wasn't around for 20 yrs at one point.

In our time Barry was Flash for about ten year longer but has been in publication about 17 yrs less that Wally and during Barry's tenure as Flash the origin of his powers was not explored as much, or explained and laid out as it was during Wally's run.

>>87709716
modern lore is entirely wally's whether you like it or not.

>>87709874
>>87709875
The vast majority of Wally's run queues off of Barry's run. Nearly all his villains, all his powers, his costume, his history. The only new lore addition is a handful of Wally unique villains (most of which who don't matter anymore besides fucking Axel) and obviously the Speed Force. The vast, vast majority of the shit you see in Wally's Flash run originates in Barry's or is derivative of Barry (Iike Cobalt Blue).

>>87710209

It's what came after without rebooting. The continuation of that story. That's not derivative, it's not a separate property in that sense, it's the following chapter.

>and obviously the Speed Force.

Way to sneak that in there.

I've never seen someone so defensive over such a bland character.

>>87710983
He doesn't understand that it's the subtle differences and the character development what the people like in Wally over Barry. For the people that does, I mean.

Let him alone. He either is a stubborn, deep fan of Barry who would argue whatever argument you present him, or he's one of the best trolls I've seen here in a while because he can hold an actual endless discussion.

>>87710983
Wally's about as bland as Barry. They're more similar than they are different.

>>87711181
>>87710983
So what? He likes Barry more than Wally, whats the problem with that? I'm pretty sure most of us thought they were the same person during in JL anyways.

>>87710983
Not the guy you've been arguing with, but he's just defending his character of choice like other people have been defending Wally. Just because you're not interested in Barry doesn't mean other people can't genuinely dig him.

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>>87710209
What was even the point of making this thread, dude? It would be one thing if you just didn't understand why people like Wally, but every time somebody gives a reason for preferring him as the Flash, you get super defensive. It's not about Barry-specific powers; it's not about the villains; it's about who we would actually want to read about.

For the record, I like Barry (pretty sure more than most people). I feel like I can relate to him better than most cape characters. But his runs have been pretty bland for the past few years. It's easy for writers to not bother with making him interesting because there's no precedent for real, deep characterization.

In the end, if we're talking about character ONLY, I like Wally better. He felt more like a real person than Barry did during most of his runs. If that opinion doesn't sit right with you, then you won't really get anywhere with us in this thread unless you write the best-ever run of the Flash that redefines people's views on the character starring Barry Allen as a character people actually like

>>87711480
The problem is that he's quite persistent in his crusade and pursuing of the ultimate true in which Barry is clearly the same than Wally, yet still better and older.

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>>87705945
Barry befriended Heat Wave, and even let him stay at his place while Goldface was hunting them both.

>>87711554
How would you make Barry more interesting?

>>87711729
The easiest way is to give him some conflict that he cannot solve easily without moral choices, and give his actions in said conflict an actual consequence that the characters weights with for a time.

>>87711554
Because for the last like 7 years people have non stopped bitched about how shitty Barry is and how great Wally is.

>>87711801
Wally never had anything like that.

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>>87711729
I'm definitely no writer, but to improve Barry's character, I would just expand on the already-established parts of his personality from all eras. imo, Barry should be this awkward, dorky guy with a tendency to put more on his plate than he can fill. That's one aspect I liked about the start of Manapul's and Williamson's runs: Barry is portrayed as this guy who's super eager to run around the city and be a superhero, even if there's a shit-ton of stuff he already needs to address in his life. At the end of the day, Barry should just be a regular nerd in a costume. You could even create some parallels with the idea of being a superhero and the reality of being one.

I would also
-improve his supporting cast (dad, Singh, etc.) by giving them more stuff to do
-make him a little more introverted
-give him stories where he has to use his brain more than his speed

But that's just how I would do it. Right now, if Williamson could just do SOMETHING new with Barry's character, I'd be happy

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>>87711886
I disagree, but I wasn't trying to say he did in any case.

>>87711682
Wally going to the Rogue's party is the GOAT Flash issue

>>87700561
Wally's strengths are all in the stories he got told about him, conceptually he's not going to give you goosebumps.

Wally is the best but there's also an element of Barry being the worst, most boring Flash bc of the bad luck of Silver Age creation. Hal's the worst GL too for the same reasons

>>87712273

>-give him stories where he has to use his brain more than his speed


remember Flash Facts

>>87700816
>much like how Hal Jordan didn't become a total sub-Guy Gardner knucklehead until Geoff Johns brought him back
A lot of what you're saying is either lies or the worst forgetfulness, but this is the worst bit and so clearly untrue.

>>87701851
Jay's stories... do not hold up very well and are incredibly generic. If it wasn't for Barry and Wally and the Justice Society, he'd be totally forgotten. Honestly, reading his and Alan Scott's Golden Age stories, it's clear why they both got rebooted with brand new directions.

>>87702034
>which comics rarely acknowledges and lets him get all the pussy.
Iris shit talked Barry so much in the Silver Age it made Lois' relationship with the foppish Clark Kent look respectful by comparison.

>>87702434
He already vanished forever, this is the undoing of that. And honestly, Kid Flash isn't a role that Wally can exactly go back to, it's not like the new kid is stealing something from him when they acknowledge both.

>>87702982
> When Dick is Robin they're ripping off Tim.
>I have never heard of this.
I honestly have, especially when Young Justice League was coming out (Robin used computers and made jokes? Clearly they're pasting Tim Drake onto Dick Grayson!)

>>87713213
Yeah but at least she loved Barry and not The Flash.

>>87712951
People keep shitting on Barry's scientist job, but it's absolutely one of the more interesting things about him. He's a huge nerd, that's why he figures out so many weird things to do with his powers and his enemies can get away with such absurd abilities and schemes.

>>87712909
Yep, I love that issue and even bought some of the original art from it. But Barry still befriended a Rogue, it's not unique to Wally.