ITT; Legacy Characters that surpassed the original character

Does the Human Torch count?

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Characters literally no one cares about outside of porn thread?

>>87687910
How relevant

Beast Boy is pretty well known thanks to the cartoon. Way more people know about him than they do the Doom Patrol, where he was introduced as the token little kid.

>>87687900
I'm going to say no as the previous Human Torch has no real connection to Johnny Storm.

I think there is a debate as to whether Hal Jordan and Barry Allen would count though.

Barry Allen as the Flash.

Arguably Wally as well in the 80's and 90's, but not so much anymore.

Like it or not, Carol Danvers is the most well known version of Captain Marvel.

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No matter how hard DC tries to say otherwise.

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Do villains count?

>>87687885
She's certainly stuck around, but I wouldnt say she's surpassed Jack yet.

>>87688046
Best Ms. Marvel
BTFO Kamala you don't even understand quintessentail traits of the legacy you're carrying

Flash, Green Lantern, Robotman, Black Widow, Atom, Sandman, Batgirl, Batwoman, Starfire, Human Torch, Blue Beetle.

>>87688072
I feel like if she had started using the name way earlier (like after Mar-vell died) people wouldn't make that much of a problem out of it

>>87688149
>Black Widow
You mean Yelena Belova?

>>87688138
She suprassed Syl though

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>>87688072
DUH
well known version != best version

Carol is Binary/Warbird

>>87688172
Claire Voyant

>>87688172
Golden age Black Widow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Widow_(Claire_Voyant) unrelated to natasha.

Not sure if, Kara And Babs counts http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Super-Girl_(Earth-One) http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Elizabeth_Kane_(Earth-One)

>>87688146
>BTFO Kamala

D E L E T

>>87687885
>DC's Carol

If anything this and Zatanna proves that you just have to put a girl in a skimpy outfit to "surpass" a male character.

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The Blue Beetles are like this. Ted Kord is a better character than Dan Garrett, and Jamie Reyes is much more well known than either of them. (Not to say that Jamie is better than Ted, they're both pretty great.)

>>87688149
>Starfire,

Since when?

>>87688418
The russian one

>>87688418
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Starfire_(New_Earth)

Jamie Reyes Blue Beetle.

Dinah Lance Black Canary.

Wally West The Flash.

Barbara Gordon Batgirl.

>>87687939

He's not a legacy character. He's the one and only BB.

>>87688464
Leonid Kovar is original

>>87688184
Young Animal Manhunter book when

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Helena B.

Didn't DC outright retcon Black Canary into one character for the New 52? Honestly, I enjoyed her being a legacy character.

The original Black Canary - Dinah Drake - was a superhero in the 40s/50s/60s. Her daughter - Dinah Lance - ended up taking up the mantle. I find superhero families a cute concept. Cute, former superhero Drake and her daughter who took up her identity years later despite her discouraging it.

>>87688666
Yes, they combined Both.

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>>87687885

>>87688338
Take your SJW waifubait and go

>>87687885
Wally West is the best answer to thread.

>>87688723
>Wallyfags
Sorry kiddo, Barry was and is the definitive article. Even when they were trying to push Wally as "the fastest ever" just like how they tried to shill Kyle, nobody forgot they were just filling bigger men's shoes. Powerlevels aren't all it takes to make a good character, something they forgot in the XTREME era.

BuckyCap is best Cap, but then again, Bucky (Cap or not) is better than Steve in just about everything except for WWII stories.

>>87688691
My Atlantean

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For a while.

>>87688839
What's the /essentialhawkanddove/ core?

>>87688952
The 1988 series Kesels

>>87688569
pre-new52 Helena Bertinelli>>>pre-new52 Helena Wayne>>>new52 Helena Wayne>>>>> DOGSHIT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PURE CANCER>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>new52 Helena Bertinelli

>>87688994
She was always shit, except for pre crisis Helena Wayne.

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>>87688691
>picture for plankton

>>87688143
At least you can tell what the G1 Barricade looks like. Bayformers just look like writhing geometry.

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>>87688797
Barry Allen has 2 good stories to his name and has failed to develop as a character since flashpoint.You can criticize waid and Geoff johns difintice runs all you want but accusing Wally of not having character is blatant lying,Wally's character is by far the most fleshed out and every adaptation of flash myths burrows from it

>>87688797
> Powerlevels aren't all it takes to make a good character

I know right? Generating Speed Force didn't suddenly give Barry any personality after all.

You'll always be butthurt Wally has the better character and stories.

>>87688500
Elaborate on Jaime because I don't see it desu

>>87688797

No one born between post-crisis and the New 52 knows Barry before Wally unless they got into The Flash post-52. We all grew up with Justice League and the Wally West comics.

Terry mcginnis. Maybe not passed but equals Bruce as batman.

>>87689647

Does anyone remember the Blue Beetle's preceding him?

>>87689867
You might want to reword your post because "anyone" is a broad term.

>>87689743
Dcau is why I'm a wallyfag. Barry is kinda boring.

>>87688072
*Birthed and was raped by Marcus
*Lobotomized and power-drained by Rogue

That is literally all Carol was remembered for until 2005, and even then she was just barely noticed by people until her promotion to Captain.

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>>87687910

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>>87687885

Why is DC successful when they change the identity of their heroes but Marvel fails when they do it?

>>87690515
But this is the same character, just younger as fapbait for pedos.

>>87690529
Because DC mostly did it in the 90s and stood by it for a time. While there's a couple of more recent attempts at it from DC, mostly they stick to the perceived original even more than Marvel do these days which has created problematic schisms for them with some characters.

>>87690578
She's the BETTER character,Anon.

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>>87690529

you might be committing the teeniest bit of selection bias...

>>87690529
I don't really know about the popularity as for as D.C. goes, but with Marvel, I guess it's because very few of these feel inorganic and oftentimes take a big shit on their predecessor.

Like, even BuckyCap, of whom I'm a huge fan, had this problem. Bucky couldn't be Cap until they"killed" Cap. Granted, Bucky did a lot to venerate Steve, but the process of getting their required some clickbait of being proportions.

It took like 3 years for the time travel gun twist to be fully revealed. They could've been up front with it, and made the twist simply that we knew (beyond speculatory senses) but the cast didn't.

D.C. seems more friendly to "graduating" characters when they bring in legacies, but my knowledge of D.C. is kinda small.

>>87690529
They don't forget about the predecessor and walk over their legacy. Characters like Wally West had to fight tooth and nail to be accepted.

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He had a cartoon.

>>87690640
His book was actually okay.

>>87690656
Kyle was a nobody from nowhere and chosen because of how unlike a Green Lantern he was after Hal went fucking insane and turned into a villain because he suffered a tragedy. Wasn't even till years later Geoff Johns came along and retconned evil Hal as not being Hal.

Wally couldn't be Flash until Barry died in an event.

A lot of DC's other attempts were rejected by readers, and with the exception of Bat characters, most other successful replacements really came down to most people currently reading comics at the time not knowing the original.

>>87690806
Oh and I should add in, the even Barry dies in was written in such away to allow for the characters return, DC were just going full steam ahead on their "new" directions at the time so told the writer not to go ahead with that story he had planned, and Wally then stuck for years, until Grant Morrison brought Barry back using the original story concept.

>>87690757

First one is surprisingly great, the Giffen "Books of Fate" series was crap.

>>87690640
90's Fate was actually pretty interesting despite the EXTREME look.

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>>87690806
> Kyle
> Hal

You're forgetting someone there.

>>87690867
No, I wasn't. Hal's the "perceived original", Alan falls under those other attempts most of the readership don't/barely know at this point.

>>87690892
To clarify, I love Alan, just he goes pretty much unnoticed by most sadly.

>>87690847

Jared is actually an interesting character, and what would normally be an edgy-as-fuck theme of "fuck the rules I do what I want" works well with DC moving away from the Lords of Order/Chaos tie to the mantle of Doctor Fate. Also helps that he's not a completely unlikeable dick who really is trying to do better.

Does Marvel even have any proper, well known legacy characters?

>>87690914
In a round about way there's Tony who technically isn't the original Tony if you want to count a story everyone's forgotten.

At a point during the Clone Saga Peter wasn't even the real Peter until they rightly did away with that.

Carol is a legacy, Marvel just do their damnedest to pretend like she's the original sadly.

X-23 has also been picking up more awareness all the time, though I'm not gonna pretend like Logan isn't gonna come back eventually.

Also, sort of Human Torch as mentioned upthread, but not really.

Oh and in a similar vein to Human Torch there's Ghost Rider, with Johnny Blaze being the second one.

I think I'm pretty much out of longshots I can kinda claim for Marvel.

Oh actually thanks to MCU Scott Lang will probably be more remembered as Ant-Man than Hank now, so there's that.

>>87689867
Ted Kord is pretty beloved by people that aren't casuals/new

I like Jaime but he hasn't done anything to really usurp Ted other than appear in cartoons. None of his runs compare to 80s JLI

>>87691026
I think with Ghost Rider you'd be better going with the torch being passed from Johnny to Danny when they found out they were brothers.

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>>87688072
holy moly

>>87688666
>>87688682
They'll probably change it back sooner or later.

>>87688072
ahahahahahahahahaha

>>87691287
J-just you wait, after her movie drops this will be true.

>>87691200
But anon, that's Shazam!

>>87688397
I'm gonna go ahead and support the thesis that Ted Kord is better than Jaime

Not in the new series, though. New Ted sucks.

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>>87690529
a. Marvel doesn't do sidekicks, generally. You can thank Stan Lee for that. A lot of DC's most well regarded legacy heroes started off as sidekicks, or at least as teenagers.

b. DC's entire silver age was built on re-inventing their golden age heroes, so those legacies just kinda happened.

c. DC's timeline allows for characters to grow up over time. Dick Grayson went from Robin to Nightwing to filling in for Batman over the course of 70 years, Wally West did the same. Even before the New 52, Cyborg had grown up and moved from the Titans to the JLA.

TL;DR: Marvel's timeline basically doesn't accommodate legacies.

>>87690640
So 90s Fate and Extreme Justice. Is there anything else?
I also unironically live Ted's XTREME outfit. The dark blue meshes really well with the gold.

>>87691843
>Marvel doesn't do sidekicks, generally
Not when teen heroes in the Marvel universe are usually treated by their elders as annoyances and liabilities.

>>87688072
No you dumb fuck, Billy Batson is the most well known Captain Marvel

>>87689518

C'mon, now. That's not fair. Golden Age Atom was shit even by Golden Age standards

"I can do an uppercut" is not a fuckin superpower.

>>87692093
>Not when teen heroes in the Marvel universe are usually treated by their elders as annoyances and liabilities.
Or kill in events

>>87687885
>>87688034
>>87688108
>>87688397
>>87688615
>>87688691
>>87688951
>>87689415

>>87692863
Meant to say "these."

My bad.

>>87692922
No problem

>>87691031

No, I haven't seen any DC fans mention Ted unless they're very into more obscure heroes.

post-movie (pratt) star lord

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>>87688046
Way better than the first Moonstone.

>>87694857
I forgot

>>87693560
so like he said, non casuals

>>87688397

I just hate Jamie's origins. I hate that a random fucking alien robot thing would BY SHEER FUCKING COINCIDENCE be a blue beetle looking thing and go by the same name this dead hero did.

They should of connected them. Ted should of build the Scarab, powered by the Scarab Dan found in Egpyt. That's so much simpler and connects them all. But nope. We Space Ayy Lmao #059696505050964094-3934540-3902-0495-0 in comics instead.

>>87687885
That's not Jack Knight

>>87688615
That's some dick

>>87690529
More normies, casuals and newfags are Marvel fans and REEEEE when things are different from the movies.

>>87699101
No, that's Jason Todd. :^)

>>87698710
But the Reach didn't call their agents Blue Beetle, they were called Infiltrators, Jaime only took that name because of the connection to Ted and Dan.

And Dan chose the name Blue Beetle because the Scarab looks like a blue beetle.