ONCE I CALLED YOU BROTHER

pretty good at depicting God as an unstoppable outside force, neither completely good or bad.

Oh Dreamworks, how far you have strayed.

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>>87368584

>>87368584
Anyone else felt kinda bad for the pharaoh? Like when Moses came back after mad long the pharaoh was like "so thats all you came back for? didnt come back to say high to your bro?" Then he went all "fuck you to then, and your jews"

>>87371509
well, that and in the bible story god basically used the pharaoh as a puppet by "hardening his heart" against his brother.

>>87371650
:(

>>87368584

ONCE I THOUGHT THE CHANCE TO MAKE YOU LAUGH

>>87371650
To be fair, the justification is so he can release the Jews from slavery. Not like Pharaoh has the power to say "okay no more slaves anymore kthx bye" without serious repercussions from other powerful Egyptian figures. So he needs to demonstrate the might and wrath of the Jewish God.

>>87372013
WAS ALL I EVER WANTED

>>87372611
THIS WAS MY HOME

I
SEND
MY
SCOURGE
I
SEND
MY
SWORD

>>87373187

ALL THIS PAIN AND DEVASTATION

>>87377303
HOW IT TORTURES ME INSIDE

>>87377620

ALL THE INNOCENTS WHO SUFFERED

>>87372318
Theres no real "to be fair" when it comes to old testament God. He played humans against each other and toyed with them all just to prove his points to them and everyone else.

>>87375325
Those were the best parts of the song, the numerous voices of God speaking, pretty much saying "I am going to fuck your shit up with everything I've got."

>>87377812
FROM YOUR STUBBORNNESS AND PRIDE

>All them Egyptian cuties in transparent clothes showing their curvy silhouettes
Hell yeah

>>87377925
YOU WHO I CALLED BROTHER WHY MUST YOU COME DOWN ANOTHER BLOW?! THIS IS WHAT YOU WANTED?

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>God makes pharaoh stubborn
>God punishes pharaoh for being stubborn
>like seven times

Man, what's the guy's problem.

Probably the best interpretation of the book of Moses put to celluloid. I fucking love this movie with a passion and I an agnostic. It deserves a special 2 disc bluray. We also need Antz re-rendered FFS!

I was expecting Metal Gear Solid references but I was disappointed

Thus saith the lord

gives me chills

>>87371509
Pharaoh seemed like a real bro.

Not cool God. Not. Cool.

>>87371509
>>87371650
>>87372318

Rameses did nothing

N O T H I N G

wrong.

>>87381421
God is an absolute prick.

Just loved how utterly terrifying God was, every line uttered by his voices grinded the fear of god into your soul.

A good reminder that the abrahamic god is 10x times more terrifying than any polytheistic deity that gets hyped across all kinds of media, despite being presented as kind or apathetic most of the time. He's definetely eldritch level, an all consuming wave of pure fuck you.

Pharaoh didn't deserve any of that shit.

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>tfw there will never be a modern version featuring a ww2 american jew corporal returning to his brother who thought he was lost
>the brother is Adolf Hitler

THIS WAS MY HOME

>>87378033
THEN LET MY HEART BE HARDENED
I NEVER MIND HOW HIGH THE COST MAY GROW
THIS WILL STILL BE SO
I WILL NEVER LET
YOUR.
PEOPLE.
GO.

>>87368584
BUT NOW WE HAVE TO FIGHT EACH OTHER

AND WE TRUST OUR FATE
TO THE HEART OF THE CARDS

>>87382906
NO MATTER WHAT!

>>87368584
BUT NOW I CALL YOU...LOVER

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BY THE POWER OF RA

>>87383038
MAY THE BEST MAN WIN

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>>87382205
> "Aaron, at the command of Moses, raised his staff over the Nile River. The water turned to blood causing the fish to die and fill the land with an awful odor"

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>>87385289
> "Aaron raised his staff again over the streams and rivers causing frogs to come out of the river. The frogs overran the country.

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>>87385363
> The next plague was brought on by Aaron striking the dust with his staff. This caused the plague of lice.

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>>87385569
> "If you do not let my people go, I will send swarms of flies on you and your officials, on your people and into your houses. The houses of the Egyptians will be full of flies; even the ground will be covered with them

>>87371509
Prince of Egypt was about the relationship between Rameses and Moses, not God's promise or the commandments

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Are there any other good works that show God as being fucking terrifying?

This and SMT are the only ones I can reall think of.

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>>87385593
> If you refuse to let them go and continue to hold them back, the hand of the Lord will bring a terrible plague on your livestock in the field—on your horses, donkeys and camels and on your cattle, sheep and goats.

>>87368584
DELIVER IS

>>87370769
>if God is all powerful, he cannot be all good
>if he is all good, he cannot be all powerful

I stopped reading the bible when I was 16, but IIRC it never explicitly says God is 100% good. It says he is holy. I've always seen God as a Lawful Neutral type deity, while Satan would be Neutral Evil

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>>87385727
> "Take handfuls of soot from a furnace and have Moses toss it into the air in the presence of Pharaoh. It will become fine dust over the whole land of Egypt, and festering boils will break out on people and animals throughout the land

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>>87385825
> "Let my people go, so that they may worship me, or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

1/2

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>>87385961
> You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go. Therefore, at this time tomorrow I will send the worst hailstorm that has ever fallen on Egypt, from the day it was founded till now. Give an order now to bring your livestock and everything you have in the field to a place of shelter, because the hail will fall on every person and animal that has not been brought in and is still out in the field, and they will die.

2/2

>>87372611
[Inarticulate chanting intensifies]

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>>87385990
> If you refuse to let them go, I will bring locusts into your country tomorrow. They will cover the face of the ground so that it cannot be seen. They will devour what little you have left after the hail, including every tree that is growing in your fields. They will fill your houses and those of all your officials and all the Egyptians—something neither your parents nor your ancestors have ever seen from the day they settled in this land till now.

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>>87386084
> Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that darkness spreads over Egypt—darkness that can be felt.” So Moses stretched out his hand toward the sky, and total darkness covered all Egypt for three days

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>>87386179
> "About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. 5 Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the female slave, who is at her hand mill

>>87385666
God is pretty terrifying in the Old Testament. He basically fucks over a guy's life just to prove a point to Satan.

>>87386315
I mean besides that. It's hard to ignore the old testament in this case.

>>87386344
Probably not much. The minute you even so much as mention God these days you get swarmed by fedora-tippers and fundamentalist Protestants each wanting to kick your ass. Maybe the Darksiders series, but it has been a while since I played that, so I'm not even sure.

>>87368584
I CAN GO THE DISTANCE

>>87368584
FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE PHAROH IS EVIL

>>87386937
You were the chosen one! You were supposed to destroy the jews, not join them!

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>>87385792
>tfw athesists and moralfags get buttmad about god about that.
You'd think trying to attribute human character traits to an eldritch extradimesnional being would be stupid right?
>hurr durr why does arahamic skyfather not share my post modern ethics systems???

God is
the same way we say Darkside *is*
You cant attribute human traits to forces beyond human comprehension the same way you cant call gravity mean when a baby falls from a 4 story building.

>>87377826
This. Old Testament God is brutal, unpredictable, unforgiving, and at points flat-out vindictive. But you devote yourself to Him all the same, because He is The Creator.

Such a brutal unforgiving God doesn't make much sense to us in CURRENT YEAR, compared to love-and-roses Jesus and the New Testament, but it's simply a reflection of the harsh and unforgiving atmosphere the ancient Israelites lived in and the lack of revision to the material later on, as Jews don't care about converting people.

>>87371650
Pharaoh wasn't Moses' brother in the bible though. in fact I'm fairly certain there were two different Pharoahs

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>>87371650
This is a bullshit retcon.

Jews were originally not Monotheistic. The point of the original Passover story was that the Jewish God was so badass he could leave his native land and go to Egypt and still have power.

>>87385792

Old Testament God is kind of a dick when you look at it from a human perspective.

On the other hand, even if he torches your city, or turns you to salt, or any of that shit, he leaves you alone when you're dead. It's only in the New Testament that that shit gets extended to eternal punishment AFTER your dead.

>>87387805
>You cant attribute human traits to forces beyond human comprehension
Bullshit we can't, he made us in his image, thus to say that he is completely incompatible with human thinking goes against that.

>>87388281

I believe the Pharaoh was his uncle

>>87388321

They were also rumored to originally be cannibals.

But this was way, WAY before they were called Jews and were like animists or something.

>>87388490
>cannibals
doesn't seem very kosher

>>87388490
I thought Yahweh rather distinctively forbade human sacrifice.

Why didnt my oarenrs teach me something useful and interesting

Chicks dont dig dudes who know the bible. They just dont.

>>87388715
Parents*

>>87388515
>>87388523
>I thought Yahweh rather distinctively forbade human sacrifice.

He did, and I said pre-Judaism.

It's thought by some to be the original reason why they don't eat pork.

>>87381851
>Rameses did nothing
>N O T H I N G
>wrong.
Well of course. Rameses had nothing to do with it. In fact none of the Pharaohs had anything to do with it. There was no significant Jewish slave population in Egypt. There was no Moses, and there was no Passover.

Jews can't even agree on which Pharaoh they were talking about. Because it was made up and Rameses is picked after the fact because he was famous.

>>87388797
I thought the pig thing was because of how awkward proper butchery and preparation is compared to other animals and how cross-contamination happens with greater frequency where pork is a factor

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>>87388417
>In *his* image
It doesnt specify physically, spiritually or mentally, it could be all, one or none, neither of which make any sense.
However if we read it as him creating another entity with a individual soul outside causality immortal and capable of self awarness then we can see it as such.

If you really want to read in to it specifically then god is complicated because *we* are complicated and he made us in his image, however we as a unit and collective are capable of evolution, ideas, memes, dialectics all filtered and broken a thousand times until the stronger remains, ideas and people adapt and god is outside of adaptation he merely *IS* so we inherit gods awareness of itself instead of his nature which changes constantly.

>>87381556
>I fucking love this movie with a passion and I an agnostic
I love it too, and I'm an atheist
Honestly I dont see how anyone could think this movie is anything other than amazing, even if they don't believe or have ties to the story spiritually.
The art, the music (I even like this campy number >>87383636), the brother dynamic between pharaoh and Moses, its all damn near perfect.

>>87381421
In this version, Pharaoh explicitly lets his heart be hardened.

>>87368584
NOW I CALL YOU SISTER

*Pharaoh shows up in drag*

>All the nonbelievers in this thread
Y'all motherfuckers gonna get smote by the lord

>>87368584
He has cancer and ANTS said he's not looking so good

F

>>87381421
I always saw it as God's way of saying, "You made your bed, now sleep in it."

>>87388490
Come on, baby, who doesn't have a cannibal in the ancestry? Our dinner!

>>87389400
>bowing just because your master cracks his whip

I'll choose freedom.

>>87389400
>Y'all motherfuckers gonna get smote by the lord
Since Passover never happened, I doubt smiting is even on the cards.

>Implying man judging God isnt as ridiculous (if not more) than an ant judging a man
>Implying God isnt the arbiter of morality and the sole judge of life's worthiness to begin, continue, or end
> Implying this course of events wasnt a long time coming and ultimately essential to God's greater endeavors on all humanity's behalf.

C'mon now

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>>87389606
>implying god is just and good
>implying abrhamic god is real
>implying god its'nt real
>implying a specfic set of middle-eastern fanfic read's with 1000x offshots and bastardisations is right about anything

God is either everything, the first mover or beyond causality and effect. We live the benevolence of the collective spirit of man the zeitgeist on a spiritual level with low level reality warping potential like 40k orks, which is why we can meme things into reality if we collectively shitpost hard enough, man has will and god has to watch if he so choses, because if no will no soul, if we have will we are not bound by any fate but our own and their is no invisible hand in motion.

>2016
>not being Deist
>lmafoing @ ur lyfe

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>>87368584

>>87389400
Sorry to tip my fedora, but if smiting was a threat, then why do people like Josef Kony, serial killers, human traffickers and animal abusers get off scott free everyday?

>>87377954
alexander would weep if he saw egypt today

>>87390151
>implying they get off

the real smiting isnt done in this mortal realm, anon

>>87368584
>no sequel with David

It's got everything.

>>87390281
Gaaaaaaaaaaay

>Muh bronze age fairy tales

>>87389606
>Implying man judging God isnt as ridiculous (if not more) than an ant judging a man
Why wouldn't an ant be allowed to judge a human?

>>87389794
Stupid sexy Ramses.

>>87368584
SOMEBODY ONCE TOLD ME

>>87370769
>neither completely good or bad.
God is good.
>>87385792
No Lex, that's wrong.

>>87388409
How is enacting justice bad? God literally gives people a chance to repent and only smashes them when they don't. There are even stories where they DO repent and God doesn't smash them.

>>87371509
Pharaoh... He's had a hard life, ya know?

>>87388417
Yeah, no.

What >>87387805 said is pretty much the whole point of the Book of Job. Until you have the kind of omnipotence and omniscience that God does, you're in no position to cast any kind of moral judgement on whether He is "good" or "evil," because our ideas of morality are only applicable on a human scale, not to fundamental forces of the universe.

>>87388849
>There was no significant Jewish slave population in Egypt.

There's no ethnic or cultural group in that region that DIDN'T have a significant slave population in Egypt at one point or another.

>>87381595
> such lust for revenge, God

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>>87370769
>>87385792
God explicitly calls itself the creator of both all good and all evil

God has a bizarre blue & orange morality for itself which humans can't grasp

>>87385792
>if God is all powerful, he cannot be all good
>if he is all good, he cannot be all powerful
what kind of bullshit "logic" is that?

Old Testament God was way harsher because people were way worse in the past. People getting raped in the streets, selling and eating of children. Now we have laws and social norms and such that even if people don't follow in deviance, those who adhere to the laws are a majority. This is before all that. Heck, the israelites decided to go do everything other than what God advised them to do on practically every two weeks. And they were in the most direct contact with Him than anyone else. Imagine the rest of the world.

>>87381421
>Man, what's the guy's problem.
He used the opportunity to pwn the majore egyptian gods
http://www.stat.rice.edu/~dobelman/Dinotech/10_Eqyptian_gods_10_Plagues.pdf

>>87388849
A historical Moses would probably have been an Egyptian though, based on his name

The stuff about being found in a basket and being related to Aaron and Miriam was probably retcons to make him Hebrew

>>87382414
>>87378033
>>87377925
>>87377812
>>87377303
>>87375325
>>87373187
>>87372611
>>87372013
>>87368584
Man this song is so damn good

I completely forgot about this movie. They'd probably never make a movie like this in this day and age.

>>87391053
Pretty simple
If he's all powerful, then that means he has the power to stop or make anything happen, and seeing as evil things happen to people (good people nonetheless) and God didn't stop it or punish the evildoer, he can't be all good.
Also, if he's all good, that means he can't do evil things, which means that God is not all powerful, seeing as these are things he cannot do, or, at the very least, will not allow himself to do.

Whats the miracle /co/ is able to have a thread about a religious movie and not have everything go to shit?
>>87390377
You can't judge what you have no power over, let alone can't comprehend.

>>87391329
You can totally judge what you have no power over
In fact, at that point, that's the only thing you CAN do, other than kowtow to its demands.
Now, if you mean that you can't have your judgment affect the thing, you're right there, but that's up to the thing itself whether it chooses to listen to you or not.

>>87390281
Then what's the point of judging at all? Why be judged for eternity by the actions you partook in such a brief instance of 100 years top when that pales so much with the rest of spiritual existence?

>>87382414
THUS, SAITH THE LORD

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>>87391180
>Quoting Batman V Superman in your theological argument

>>87391819
That argument predates Christianity.

>>87391819
?
That argument's older than dirt, if BvS used it, it was just to further the Jesus parallel they have going with Supes

>>87386315
people seem to forget the part where he rewards Job for his faith with more riches than he had before

>>87391819
Stupid Evans poster

>>87392603
He killed his family.
He killed his family when the mythology was just "you die"

>>87392603
And he rewarded Lot's faith with a dead wife and father-daughter twincest date rape.

>>87392603
He killed his family and then paid him off. How wonderful.

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>>87392644
God has the same taste in porn I do.

And I'd have smote Sodom too, too much /y/ shit.

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>>87389374
>tfw you never get a Prince of Egypt adaption of Oreimo

>>87386315
To be fair, God doesn't actually fuck over Job. Satan goes to God and says "I bet I can make Job renounce you if you let me fuck up his life," and God says "Give it your best shot, kiddo."

I mean, he doesn't stop it from happening, but he's not directly responsible for it, since all the bad stuff was the direct work of the devil.

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

>>87392659
He got a new family, and he didn't seem all that torn up about losing the old one, for some reason.

>>87390322
Bathsheba best girl? Easily one of the top five Biblical tales of cuckoldry.

>>87392824
>he's not directly responsible for it
Come on, really? Satan can't do shit without Yaweh's okay and everybody knows it. And for what it's worth, God has done WAY WORSE than Satan has over far less than that.

Remember that time King David took a census and God flipped out and murdered scores of Israelites, and it got to the point where He actually felt bad about it afterward? Off the top of my head that's one of the only times God did something and was like, "Okay, even I admit that was kinda fucked up."

>>87370769
>Oh Dreamworks, how far you have strayed.
You mean you DON'T like talking smart babies lmao?

>>87393055
>that time King David took a census and God flipped out and murdered scores of Israelites
What the hell is his problem? Holy shit

>>87393283
David wasn't supposed to do that.

Yes, it is that simple.

>>87390477
don't really want to tip my fedora, but the old testament is full of him being a dick for the sake of being one, and many of his laws are nonsensical by today's standard.
there are many contradictions between god's depictions in the old testament, but the biggest clash is between old and new one. in the new one he's a lot more chill than before

>>87390477
>How is enacting justice bad?
If Old Testament bs is what you call "justice".

>>87385666
>Are there any other good works that show God as being fucking terrifying?

Mostly works about pantheons with multiple gods where they have a god of Death, a goddess of Pain etc.

I feel like the most obviously dickish God gets is towards the end, when Moses parts the sea and God blocks the army with a sweet fire tornado, then removes it when the jews still aren't all the way through so he can bait the army into the sea and kill them with it.

Seemingly just for the lulz!

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> "WHO MADE MAN's MOUTH? WHO MADE THE DUMB, THE DEAF, THE MUTE, THE SEEING AND THE BLIND? DID NOT I? NOW GO"

>>87395409
it's like god chilled out after he had a kid

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>>87397481

This made me chuckle

>"Yo I don't do that smiting thing no more, I got a family now"

On the other hand...

>"Dad halp they crucify me"
>"Goddamn lazy kid, you brought it on yourself being a damn hippie"
>"Dad it hurts"
>"Suck it up son, it'll build character"

>>87391067
>people were way worse in the past.
>People getting raped in the streets, selling and eating of children.
Atrocities and war crimes still happen in bad parts of the world today, and have almost always been considered taboo in the majority of civilized societies.

For a more fair claim on how people were "worse" back then, you could cite the way civilized societies stoned people in the streets.
Brutal yes, but we still perform executions on each other, just through more modern means.
>Now we have laws and social norms
Society is far from a new concept.
As long as society has existed we've had laws and social norms.

>>87385666
Satan trips

>>87368584
This was the movie that that made me atheist. I cried at the scene where God killed the kids

>>87398945
>I cried at the scene where God killed the kids
you're a grill aren't you

>>87398969
I don't know anon are you a homosexual?

>>87389441
I always thought the same. The book of Exodus starts off by saying that that generation of Egyptians had forgotten about Joseph and his works and treated his people like crap. So God notices that people aren't treating Abraham's descendants with the respect they used to, and remembering his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, he comes down hard on the Egyptians.

>>87399024
>I don't know anon are you a homosexual?
What? Is that suppose to be a quip?
What does my sexuality have to do with you being aware of your own gender?
I was asking your gender because of the way you explained you reacted to a scene in a movie we're discussing.
That's perfectly relevant and pertinent to the discussion on hand.
Bringing my sexuality into this is not, and is just being an ass.

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Is God the most popular comic book character of all time?

I don't think any other fictional superhuman has even come close to having as long of a run (and widespread popularity) as he has.

>>87400011
Yep you are a homosexual

>>87385792
people dont seem to realize that god is kind of a dick

>>87400465
>Yep you are a homosexual
I'm a homosexual because I've asked someone's gender after they've shared their experience with a film?
Are you even trying to be clever?

>>87401447
Seems like he's got you pegged. Probably not the first time, eh?

>>87401998
No, just being called a homosexual is such a noninsult where I live in this day and age that it'd be silly to bother affirming or denying it, it's just a nonissue either way.
My sexual identity doesn't matter to this discussion one way or the other, especially not when lobbed as a derogatory accusation.

>>87401447
Asking for somebody's gender -- along with their sex and pronouns and all that puerile shit -- yeah, is sign that you're big into social justice and thus are a "queer" person yourself.

>>87388281

Pharoh's were infamously incestual. Fathers marrying daughters, Brothers marrying sisters. There's no reason he couldn't be both.

>>87402282
I'm not into social justice at all.
I was just wondering if that poster was a girl as I wasn't personally that emotionally moved by that scene.
That's a harmless question, and to drag my sexuality into it is rather confusing.

If you must know though I'm straight, but I don't see why that weighs in on this discussion, unless you are implying homosexuals are inferior.
Which is a different discussion than the one we were having entirely and it seems you are only trying to derail my original question to that poster.

>>87390822
>There's no ethnic or cultural group in that region that DIDN'T have a significant slave population in Egypt at one point or another.
There is no significant Jewish slave population in Egypt. Even Jewish archaeologists know this. You have no leg to stand on to generalise when even Israel gave up on it. Don't you find it suspicious why the Bible had to add the part about how "everyone who ever lived in Egypt died in the desert without seeing the promised land?" That's added just to justify why no one alive at the time had ever known about being liberated from Egypt, because the Passover never happened.

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>>87392642

But he got a much hotter younger wife in the end, so it all balances out!

>>87393055

If you count Noah, God also kinda felt bad about the whole "flooding the planet" thing. That's why we have rainbows. They're God's visual promise that He wont try to wipe out humanity again.

At least, with a flood. Anything else is fair game I guess.

If God is so powerful how come hedidnt just let his own people go?

>>87403021
Because He's got a strange sense of propriety.

God could handwave everything into a state of perfection but doesn't because like, lessons or some shit. That's my basic understanding of the concept, for a real answer go flag down a priest.

>>87402426
it's almost as if it's a work of fiction meant to teach you something and tell a story

not even fedora tipping, if you think anything in the bible is literal you're a fucking retard.

>>87403021
>>87403227
I'll take free will for 500 Bob

>>87403233
>not even fedora tipping, if you think anything in the bible is literal you're a fucking retard.
I don't think you understand why people would call you a fedora tipper in the first place.

>>87403233
That part with the talking animal seemed legit as fuck doe

>>87403009

That's why you don't have to worry about Global Warming. God promised not to flood so you can pollute as much as you want!

>>87391180
Define "good".

Everything in life is good from one perspective or another, even the complete eradication of the human race would be considered "good" if you're an animal who would flourish in a depopulated world.

>>87404542
Moral relativism ho!

Reminder that God hardened the Pharaoh's heart so that he would have a pretext to completely fuck Egypt up with all his magic powers, thus showing everyone that they shouldn't fuck with the Hebrews but also making God not seem like a dick who ruined the Egyptians for no reason.

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>tfw The Prince of Egypt is my all time favourite animated movie
I'm not even christian, but goddamn, dat storytelling, that pacing, that writing, dem characters, dat art, dat animation, dat cinematography, dat score, and dat voice acting.

How did the sequel fail so damn hard? Joseph's story is pretty damn neat too.

>>87405100
They made a sequel? Never knew.

They couldn't have chosen someone cooler than Joseph? He just gets bullied by his brothers and tells people what their dreams mean.

>>87405131
What story would you tell, then? one of the Judges?
actually, I'd love to see a dreamworks movie about Samson

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>>87405131


>Thinks the story of how the Jews got to Egypt is a sequel.

>>87382414
>HE RUNS THE BOARD
>DELETES THE PORN
>THE JANITORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
>LET MY IP GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>87388490
Every society has a history of cannibalism.

>>87385792
>Taking Epicurus seriously

Gat dayum, but there's some bad philosophy in this thread.

>>87405164
Not sure off the top of my head but it does seem odd to do someone as low key as Joseph. Not all that much juicy material to work with from what I remember.

>>87392824
>>87386315
Dude, how sweet would it be if God made an old testament family guy show based off the Bible. And we all get to watch it when we pass over.

>>87405272
Rugrats was Hebrew kino

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>>87391180
>>87391819
You know it always bothered me how the director/writer had the balls to have Lex say this in the movie, but he didn't have the balls to have Lex Luthor say "Allah" when he was listing off the names of God and other gods.

>>87405228

Are you kidding? It's one of the most emotional stories in the bible. It has betrayal, sex, forgiveness and a happy ending, along with the Supernatural.

David is too bloody (and has a bad ending, also incest). Solomon ends in disaster. Abraham is full of the hero being a dick, he sacrifices his son, throws his other son out so that he'll die in a desert (plus incest). Maybe one of the Judges?

>>87405373
Not to mention a female trying to rape a male

>>87393283
>taking a census

>When that right is specifically reserved for the priests, TO THE LORD.

Basically David usurped the authority of God Himself. The absolute easiest way to get God to smite you, biblically, is to directly lie to, steal from, or presume to speak and act for God without His direct consent. That bit even carries into the New Testament, with Ananias and Saphira struck dead for lying to the Holy Spirit.

The fact that David was not struck dead for the action of shows just how much God specifically favors him.

>>87393283


David was a real person, and it looks like the real David actually started losing battles at that time. There needed to be an excuse for why David, God's chosen king, suddenly started to lose and the census was a good scapegoat.

>>87403233
>it's almost as if it's a work of fiction meant to teach you something and tell a story
>not even fedora tipping, if you think anything in the bible is literal you're a fucking retard.
You don't understand. The Passover is what Judaism used to prove they are the Chosen People. And without it there is no Promised Land, as if there is no Passover then there is no Promised land to escape to. You can't claim that the Passover is a metaphor, that doesn't work for the religion.

>>87405537
So I can't believe that I'm of the chosen people unless I assume I literally have a magic ward that prevents god from killing my first born?

I'm not allowed to practice my religion unless I believe that the world literally flooded and was saved by a man who built a boat so big it could hold two of every animal, of which were capable of repopulating the planet?

what about the fact that the Pope agrees with me?

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>>87405696

You're forgetting that the pope is literally the anti-christ. And Palpatine.

>>87405696
>So I can't believe that I'm of the chosen people unless I assume I literally have a magic ward that prevents god from killing my first born?
Yes, because that was the only proof you got that you were the Chosen People. More importantly, it is the only way the Land of Israel could exist. Jews either traveled to the Promised Land, or they were always living in the Promised Land and was never promised it by any god. Without Passover there can't be a Promised Land. If a people had always been living in one place, it makes no sense to then say that the land was promised to them. Archaeologically the Jews didn't arrive at the Promised land.

And without the Chosen People, there is no King of the Jews, no prophecy, thus no prophets.

>>87405949

Dude Benedict hasn't been the pope in years. It's a Jesuit now.

>>87390477
>There are even stories where they DO repent and God doesn't smash them.

The only story of that kind is the story of Niniveh, and it wasn't supposed to be a real story, just a fictional tale (inb4 all the bible is fictional, I meant Jonah's story was literally a Jew fable that got included in the bible, like the tale of Job). In the story of Moses, he Himself hardens the pharaoh's heart to keep bullying the Egyptians and show off his power. In fact, most of Old Testament sounds like the Israelis are aware that he's far from benign or even reasonable, but he's justified in doing what he wants because he's all powerful and created everything.

>>87391141

just like that story of Jesus' parents needing to relocate due to the census is a retcon to make him into a descendant of David

>>87390777

The point of the Book of Job is that he can do whatever he wants because he's omnipotent, and the only reason you can't cast moral judgement on him is because you can't enforce it. Old Testament's God justification isn't anything more than the rule of the strongest.

Besides, even if you're a being impossible to grasp, if you impose moral standards on other creatures, as inferior as they are compared to you, you should at least set an example.

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>>87405696

>So I can't believe that I'm of the chosen people

No, goy.

>>87406314
>just like that story of Jesus' parents needing to relocate due to the census is a retcon to make him into a descendant of David
Especially since it is a BAD retcon. Because we know as a fact that Census of the time doesn't require you to travel at all. So we can strike out the entire born-in-a-manger story.

>>87396951
You do realize that the Egyptians were A-class dicks, right?

>>87372318

Actually, he can.

Because he's the PHARAOH.

>>87405131
>He just gets bullied by his brothers and tells people what their dreams mean.

He goes from being a simple peasant to be the king of Egypt

>/co/ - Theology

>>87405373

Job

>>87398890
Kay, I admit I worded that last part incorrectly, I meant more sophisticated laws and more adherence to social norms. Also, yes atrocities and war crimes happen in bad parts of the world...but that's why we call them the bad parts. Imagine all of those things happening on a more widespread and uncontrolled level.

>>87388321

I recall something about YHWH having a wife and brothers, who all got phased out over time.

>>87399053

Well, the few lines we have from the Egyptians POV, they say Israelites are trying to live off them. I don't find that hard to believe that they were trying to live off Joseph's fame and works, and it's not like because a dude made you a favor once, you owe their descendants for all the eternity.

>>87389441

Except when he learned his lesson and tried to make the bed right, God tied his hands behind him.

>>87397481
God chilled out after having sex with a girl. All those Old Testament butt fuckery was due to sexual frustration.
4000 years from now he'll be sexually frustrated again.

>>87405429
>The fact that David was not struck dead for the action of shows just how much God specifically favors him.

Too bad he didn't feel the same way about the scores of Israelites.

I used to think Israelites were dicks, but with time I realized that their religion was just an incredibly abusive relationship. Probably the peoples God smited in the way got far better than the Israelites, being toyed with and teased with promises of peace, just to end up exiled and as bitches of any empire that God would eventually cast down.

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>pharaoh kills a bunch of babies because he's afraid someone will overthrow his rule
>God subverts his plan and lets him watch as his little empire crumbles
>"PHARAOH DINDU NUFFIN GOD WAS BEING UNFAIR"

So, what happened to being a god on earth, pharaoh?

>>87406890
Israelites like it in the butt.

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Now that we're talking about Prince of Egypt again (I fucking love these threads)...

What's everyone's thoughts on Jesus Christ Superstar?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-voeq7Cebo

>tfw animated adaptation never ever

>>87406895
>So, what happened to being a god on earth, pharaoh?
Worked out pretty well, actually. The Egyptian Empire was fine and was far more successful and enduring than what the Jews created.

>>87406738
>I recall something about YHWH having a wife and brothers, who all got phased out over time.
The wife is still in the Bible, her holy symbol was a tree. That is why there was description of how trees should not be planted anywhere near YHWH's places of worship. And not all Bible translations remember to erase the wife's name.

Her name is Asherah.

Her erasure explains why women gpt short end of the stick in the Abraham religions. YHWH is meant to be worshipped by men exclusively, women are suppose to worship Asherah. The theological divorce left women with nothing, thus they had been second fiddle to men in religious duties ever since.

That also is why we know as a fact that YHWH is a man. If he was the one and only god it would make no sense to assign a gender.

>>87406895
Thoughts like this were probably what motivated Jews to create an imaginary story like that in the first place. Quite a wish fulfillment tale.

A lot of it is kind of pointless to talk about.

Since the Hebrews likely weren't actually slaves at all.

>>87407322

In way, religious texts are a lot like comic books.

Someone makes the seminal work, then a bunch of other writers come in over the years and add their own fanfictions to the main canon. Then other people come in and take away parts they don't like, or that they think jibe with the rest of it.

This leads to years of retcons and re-retcons until they hammer out a basic set of concrete events.

Christianity is basically the new-52 of Judaism.

>>87391819
It's called the problem of evil. It is a very old philosophical quandary.

>>87405341
In X-men Apocalypse, Bryan Singer had the Apocalypse worshipers say one of the 99 names Muslims have for God instead of directly saying "Allah". I dont think the news made it into America but over here it made a lot of people uncomfortable. I'm glad Snyder didnt include it in the movie

>>87391819
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AzNEG1GB-k

>>87407492
>It's called the problem of evil. It is a very old philosophical quandary.
And it was only really a quandary once the idea of an omnipotent AND all-loving god appeared. For most of human history, it was only ever one or the other. Almost everyone believed that gods are not omnipotent, and that is why it is possible to deceive gods. And Abraham's Jewish followers believe that their god is omnipotent, but NOT all-loving.

Christianity was when the incompatibility happened. For the rest of the human race, the issue was so obvious that it was deliberately avoided. But Christianity just up and went and forced their followers to believe in the illogical. This then allow these same followers to do ANYTHING at all. Because once you can convince them of illogical things, they would obey you into doing any crimes you can imagine.

>>87405429
>Basically David usurped the authority of God Himself.
God was the one who got him to take the census in the first place, unless you trust the other part of the bible that says no it was actually Satan.

>>87406895
The Egyptian Empire was one of the first great ancient civilizations.

The Jews, God's chosen people, did what for a few thousand years, exactly?

>>87407155
I saw a live play of it. I don't know if it was the writing or because the best actor in the play was the one in the role of Judas, or some mixture of the two, but the play was very sympathetic towards him.

>>87391780
>THUS, SAITH THE LORD

I
WILL
NOT

>>87407785
LET MY PEOPLE GO
>LET YOUR PEOPLE GO

THUS SAITH THE LORD

>>87407691
It depends on the production, but Jesus Christ Superstar is generally a very sympathetic portrayal of Judas. Jesus is also very fallible; he's tired, wavering, and, at times, even self-absorbed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LU3HjGmHfo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJxKtOwgLdw

>>87407617
>Jewish followers believe that their god is omnipotent, but NOT all-lovin
That makes perfect sense. Answers all the moral issues when it turns out that God doesn't give a shit about morality.

>>87407858
Its also very into the idea that Judas was as fated in his role as Jesus, which he ultimately confronts god about at the end of the play. It implies there's a place in heaven for him which jives with some current Christian theology now but was a pretty big deal at the time.

Actually one of my favorite depictions of the Passion, Roman fighter jets and all.

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>>87385666
Berserk.

>>87407155
I love it. My favorite musical.

HE'S JUST ANOTHER SCRIPTURE THUMPING HACK FROM GALILEE

THE DIFFERENCE IS THEY CALL HIM KING! THE DIFFERENCE FRIGHTENS ME

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>>87407617
Right, the problem only exists when you try to create an all loving and all powerful deity.

I'm honestly a bit disappointed that there are so few depictions of the ancient Indian religions in Western culture. Stuff like Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism (yes I know Sikhism is not ancient) are some pretty cool shit.

>>87407617
But that's wrong

Zeus was stronger than all the other gods combined, and he was also all-good because he was the keeper of order in the universe

It's only this whiny bullshit of "why did a loving god let humans be dumbasses who ruin everything?"

>>87407190
But Hebrew is actually a spoken language today, Egyptian isn't

The Egyptians got cucked into oblivion by Arabs armed with fanfiction based on Hebrew religion and even today are a pathetic race of morons dicking around by their river

>>87407858
>>87407893

I actually really like that depiction of Judas. It turns him from some kind of evil mustache twirler into a character befitting a Greek tragedy.

>>87406657
Fluffer at a porn studio, but what does that have to do with anything?

>>87385792
No my dear, God simply is, good and evil are human values and God is beyond that. In fact there's a story in the bible that basically asks why he is worthy of worship, God simply answers because he is all powerful.

The idea of a benevolent and humane god is purely Christian.

>>87368584
I still think it's funny that the jews never were slaves in egypt.

They could even "call" in sick to work because they had a hangover. Archeologists found their punch cards.

>>87408011
>Zeus was stronger than all the other gods combined, and he was also all-good because he was the keeper of order in the universe
Nope. You missed that he had aid from Hecate, without who's help he would never defeat the Titans. And Hecate basically is the one god that Zeus never order around, because he needed her consent to rule.

>>87407322
>this entire post

Atheists are very good at sounding like they know things, but things like "it would make no sense to assign a gender" make it clear they're just pretentious autists.

>>87407431
>religion is like comic books

And here's the part where atheists reveal themselves to be immature manchildren comparing thousands of years of disagreement over the human place in the cosmos and who rules those cosmos is the same as men in tights who are strong

>>87408011
>Zeus
>All good

Zeus was a gigantic dick who embodied some of the worst traits of man kind.

Furthermore, he was powerful, but not all powerful, as he was often tricked or misled.

If it was a simple as people just being whiny, the problem would not have existed for millennia, without any real answer.

\>>87408036
>But Hebrew is actually a spoken language today, Egyptian isn't
>The Egyptians got cucked into oblivion by Arabs armed with fanfiction based on Hebrew religion and even today are a pathetic race of morons dicking around by their river
Then all you are saying is that the Arabs beat the Egyptians. Nothing to do with Hebrew.

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>>87387805
>God as an almost Lovecraftian cosmic horror
Jesus, when you think about it like that suddenly a lot of shit makes sense

"I will stretch out my hand smite Egypt with all of my wonders"

This line always stuck with me. From a writing perspective, it's a great insight into God's personality and eminence

>>87391180
If he is all good then he can never be anything else. This does not mean he isn't all powerful it simply means that your understanding of good is simply not up to par.

>>87407155
One of my favorite albums of all time

>>87408295
This is one of the routes people try to go to answer the question, but it doesn't hold up.

First, suffering exists. It doesn't matter if there is some greater good behind it, because it still exists. An all powerful and wholly good being would be able to prevent any and all suffering.

Second, it uses morality/good as defined by God (unknowable) to explain the existence of god. You can't use something in its own definition or proof.

>>87408151
Not exactly lovecraftian, an important difference between God and any of the entities in Lovecraft is that he loves humanity, whereas all the various Lovecraftian deities are more or less apathetic or indifferent to us.

>>87408085
>Atheists are very good at sounding like they know things, but things like "it would make no sense to assign a gender" make it clear they're just pretentious autists.
You can call me anything you like, it wouldn't magically make your own beliefs superior. Especially since you assume I am an atheist, when all I am rejecting is YOUR religion. Funny that, Abraham's followers basically invented the concept of non-believers being guilty by default. The idea that someone who doesn't worship the same god as you do, is not suppose to be a problem. Religion was personal, or tribal. Judaism at least still held to the belief that there is no reason to convert others. While the rest of the world just sees that it makes perfect sense strangers on another land would have a different religion from themselves. Thus it was never a problem that someone not being a believer was suppose to be grounds for violence. But then Monotheism of Judaism was mixed with the urge to convert non-followers, by Christianity and Islam. And now suddenly it is important to insult people who are not of your religion.

>>87408101

You're thinking of early Zeus. Late Zeus was all wise and all loving. That's actually pretty common with God mythology, early in a God's life cycle they're petty God's that act an awful lot like humans. As time passes they go through a "flanderization" and become more good and noble.

This is most notable with Athena, in her early portrayals she's just as small-minded, wicked and petty as every other god, but her later stories she's the goddess of Wisdom and without flaws.

>>87408341
I don't really care about the conversation, but I'd like to address the second point. While that would normally be true, it's been repeatedly stated in the Bible that only God can define God. Yahweh even means "I Am what I Am". He's a being that exists outside of time and space, and in it at the same time. He's omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, and infinite in being. Hell, even the Catholic Church refers to such ideas as the Trinity as mysteries. A big part of Christianity is that God can't be understood or measured by humans, because he's just that far beyond us.

Even the whole "made in his image thing" really doesn't mean as much as people think. We make fictional characters in the image of humans. Does that mean that a fictional character can understand and comprehend us? No, it's beyond them, because they're fictional and limited while we're real and not.

>>87408494
Right, and this makes sense within the faith, and is correct within the faith.

It just can't be used as a proof in a logical debate divorced from any one particular belief system.

After all ,isn't that why it's called faith?

>>87408085
>All Atheists are the same.

>>87392824

>He's not directly responsible

God has created everything and is omnipresent. Also I'm pretty sure Satan has no free will. He's directly responsible by default

- jew slaves built the pyramids -

outside of the Bible’s stories, there is no record anywhere in history of this enslavement. No archaeological evidence was ever found. Thousands of people wandering through the desert for 40 years? You’re gonna leave something behind. They didn't because it never happened.

The Egyptians left no record of it and the fact that most of the construction in Egypt was done by free Egyptians is a matter of archaeological fact.
The fact that not a single artifact has been found that could be definitely linked to the biblical Exodus. If the parting sea, the burning bush, the plagues, etc. did happen, they appear to have left no traces.

There is NO way to confirm even, that the Israelite WERE slaves in Egypt. There is only one source for the story of enslavement or the Exodus: The Bible.
For many scholars, the silence of the Egyptians sources is telling. I personally would want two or three separate sources before I will believe what any ONE source says. And frankly, there is NO Egyptian written texts saying anything about the Exodus.

Some argue that the Egyptians simply would not record such an epic embarrassment. The Egyptians were meticulous bureaucrats and DID keep unflattering paperwork (papyrus scrolls).

There are Egyptian documents of many bad things happening in Egypt at the time, civil war, unrest, of foreign incursion, of people coming in and taking over Egypt. And yet you have NO evidence for this massive upheaval of the Pharaoh and the destruction of his entire army. You WOULD expect to find it! Looking at the Exodus through the lens of science, we know only a few hard facts.

The archaeological and historical records remain resolutely silent about these epic events. the only plausible reasons to not finding any evidence to the Exodus is that:

1. it did not happen the way the Bible says it did
OR,
2. it did not happen at all.

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>>87408643

>>87387805
Then there's absolutely no point in organized religion and we shouldn't give a fuck about "god"

>>87388797
well humans are known as "the long pork" for a reason

they do mention that the flesh of swine is impure for whatever reason

>>87408692
Pigs are demons. Literally.

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>>87408744
I figured Schlomo just got a bad case of Trichinosis once

>>87408692
Pigs ate just about everything dead and alive, and humans can catch disease from them since our genetics are so close that we can interchange organs. So there was a good reason to avoid pre antibiotics treated pigs. Another cloven hoof animal like the camel is used as transport and is valuable. Kinda like how there is a taboo about eating horse in the usa.

>>87408968
From my cursory glance, it appears Jesus also exorcised demons from a man, driving them into a nearby herd of pigs, who promptly dove into a river to drown

https://goodquestionblog.com/2014/03/20/why-did-jesus-agree-to-the-demons-request-to-go-into-the-herd-of-pigs/

I still buy intestinal parasites more, but seeing as how the concept of medicine back then was nothing but spirits and bad humors, it makes sense.

I'd feel pretty shit if a demon came through my bacon too.

>>87408599
All of you lot speak with the same aura of intellectualism because you're going against the tide when you cant even comprehend the simple fact that his might, his plans extend to such an extent that we cannot even begin to understand how and why he works the way he works.

His commands are not only meant for individual benefit but also for a societal uplift that is again a part of, I'm sure you're familiar with this term, "The Grand Design".

When you have someone with knowledge over all dominions, over all ages- past, present and future and that being asks you to do something, you simply trust his judgement and go ahead with his commands because his reasoning are far heavier and more beneficial than your hurt feelings.

Here's the song that stuck with me from Prince of Egypt other than the inaccuracies such as turning the Pharaoh into Moses's brother for that extra hint of Drama:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG0a9WFkgzU

>>87408647
>the plagues

There was actually written record of the plagues by the Egyptians and other cultures of the time. Scientists today have theorized that each "plague" caused a chain reaction for the next. A volcano erupted causing the sky to become black and ash and flames rain down. Locust swarms caused a spike in the frog population, the frogs died due to overpopulation and their decaying bodies in the water spread disease, the first born were sent to retrieve reserved grain from the storage sheds and most likely were exposed to ergot poisoning and died.

>>87389441
Pretty funny god when you gotta make up some craaaaazy bullshit excuses for your god. Like would you go drinking at a pub with your god? Knowing you'd have to make excuses for why he keeps playing grabass with the male bartender? Why he's pissed down his trouser leg? Why does your god keep knocking over chairs?

>>87368584
BUT THEN YOU GOT A SEX-CHANGE.

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>>87389773
You can meme things into reality

>>87409079
>There was actually written record of the plagues by the Egyptians and other cultures of the time. Scientists today have theorized that each "plague" caused a chain reaction for the next. A volcano erupted causing the sky to become black and ash and flames rain down. Locust swarms caused a spike in the frog population, the frogs died due to overpopulation and their decaying bodies in the water spread disease, the first born were sent to retrieve reserved grain from the storage sheds and most likely were exposed to ergot poisoning and died.
No, that is not science. That is assuming that the ten plague are real and then retroactively try to argue how it can happen scientifically. There is still no evidence that the ten plagues ever occurred, so your "scientific analysis" is pointless. It can't be scientific until we actually get evidence of its existence, there is no point trying to explain what never happened.

>>87408647
Yeah I know.
It's still a good movie.

>>87409079
>there was actually a written record of the plagues

There has never been any written record of the mass enslavement of the Jews in Egypt or of the Exodus. The Egyptians were sterling record keepers and would keep track of anything and everything that could be useful information in the future including accounts of defeat in battle and the failure of rulers. I highly doubt that people so tied to record keeping would fail to record/lose undeniable proof of the hand of god. Don't act like the bible is a literal account of history. It is a book of parables.

>>87408147
>>87408036
I thought the language the egyptian coptics speak is pretty close to ancient egyptian

>>87408085

And yet, where's the lie?

This movie was a fucking masterpiece, Dreamworks please go back to 2D animation.

>>87406679
>Imagine all of those things happening on a more widespread and uncontrolled level.
But how much worse was it really? I mean we have war and genocides to this day.
If the logic is that it was harder to bring violators or raiders to justice, the same could be said even recently about the dark ages, early america, the wild west, or times before forensic evidence.

Where do you draw the line of society awakening to the concept of morality and lawfulness?

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>>87398252
>I don't know what you people did to Him, but He's never been the same.

My favorite view of god and jesus

>>87409069
All of this assumes the existence of not only a god, but the Abrahamic God, from the start, which makes it hardly convincing.

Yes, I know the point of being a follower of a faith is that you don't need convincing, but this isn't the ancient era anymore. I can, with a click of my finger, look up all the major religions of the world, as well as most of the minor ones. Perhaps I find that Hinduism, or Buddhism makes more sense to me. If that's the case, all the posturing about how the Abrahamic God is the one true god comes off a bit silly.

>>87368584
ALL I EVER WANTED!!!!!!

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>/co/ comes together to talk about cartoons
>Shitstorms about race, sex, politics, political movements, and of course tumblr

>/co/ comes together to talk about Christianity
>Calm, rational and interesting discussion about theology

Shit like this reminds me why I come to this site every single day

>>87409204
I didn't say anything about mass enslavement, I said that a series of events happened that are recorded that match what the judeo call the plagues. Most likely shit happened and they wrote a historically fictional story around that.

>>87406679
>>87409245
Also, may I point out, this whole topic is about the old testament story of Moses.
A story about a man who wanted to deliver persecuted jews from slavery, this was the reality depicted of how life was in the old testament.
But are we really in modern years that far divorced from the concepts of jewish persecution or slavery of other races?

>>87409281
GLEAMING IN THE MOONLIGHT

>>87409382
THIS IS MY HOME!

>>87409204
Did they keep the names of slaves?

>>87409371
>A story about a man who wanted to deliver persecuted jews from slavery, this was the reality depicted of how life was in the old testament.
>But are we really in modern years that far divorced from the concepts of jewish persecution or slavery of other races?

Slavery of ONE race, Africans. And the only reason Africans got singled out was because Europeans banned slavery in their own countries. And Jewish persecution was caused by the Christian belief of Jewish Deicide, leading to Muslims protecting the Jews from Christian attack.

But still, it all doesn't matter if the Passover was a lie.

>>87409460
>Did they keep the names of slaves?
Why would they not? What kind of crazy world do you think we live in that something as valuable as a slave would not have a name? Slaves are EXPENSIVE and not many people can afford one. They are revenue-generating assets.

>>87409532
I dunno. It would seem redundant to record the finer details of sacrificial slave labor.

>>87409510
Africans are far from the only race that have been enslaved in modern times.
In parts of the world there still is slavery, child labor, and sweatshops.

>>87409579
>I dunno. It would seem redundant to record the finer details of sacrificial slave labor.
WHAT?
Slaves are NOT sacrificial! That's now how it works, that's not how ANY of this works. Slaves are the equivalent of stocks and bonds, they make money for you. You don't just up and kill slaves, that would be like setting your wallet on fire. Yes, violence is needed to keep slaves in line, but killing a slave is a complete waste of money. You think new slaves grow on trees?

>>87385792
I'm no Christfag, but some of the smartest and most logical people human civilization have ever producing have been debating this for two thousand years

Truly by applying Dungeons & Dragons alignments to them you have elevated the discussion

>>87409605
>Africans are far from the only race that have been enslaved in modern times.
>In parts of the world there still is slavery, child labor, and sweatshops.
Yes, but slavery has once again returned to being equal opportunity and no longer race based.

>>87409630
>I'm no Christfag, but some of the smartest and most logical people human civilization have ever producing have been debating this for two thousand years
What is there to debate? As I mentioned in >>87407617, it is just a logical fallacy that is intentionally designed to be impossible. It forces believers to stop thinking, which is beneficial to Christianity.

>>87409615
Then how did they build the pyramids?

>>87409665
>Then how did they build the pyramids?
By paying farmers to help with construction during flood periods. This is well documented. It is a kind of social welfare and government spending when the population is not doing anything.

>>87409660
Upthread people were mentioning that God is, to some extent, not human, and thus His priorities and goals are not what they would be from a human perspective. That's the logic I tend to apply

>>87409689
Are you calling the Jewish people liars?

>>87409693
>Upthread people were mentioning that God is, to some extent, not human, and thus His priorities and goals are not what they would be from a human perspective. That's the logic I tend to apply
Is it not bizarre that Christianity is the only religion that require this? And that the Jewish God, allegedly the same deity, doesn't need the same jumping of hoops?

>>87409709
>Are you calling the Jewish people liars?
Are you saying the Jewish people are magically incapable of deception, unlike the rest of the human race?

>>87409723
Go to bed /pol/

>>87409739
>Go to bed /pol/
I am not sure how treating a bunch of humans as humans, somehow makes me /pol/.

>>87409710
Nope. Because I believe that Christianity is true. So it being different than all other religions makes the unique claim of truth make sense to me. Cause if it were like all the others, how could it have a unique claim on truth?

>>87409631
>Yes, but slavery has once again returned to being equal opportunity and no longer race based.
That's a jocular and interesting interpretation of the modern issue.
But it doesn't really have much to do with my discussion with that anon regarding his blanket claim that old testament times were vastly "worse" and less societal than the new testament.

I'm still trying to understand when he decided humanity awoke as a species and became lawful and moral.

>>87409693
But that still does not solve the problem of evil, as it relies on an unknowable god. That is, that answer relies on faith, which is the point of the exercise.

Purely through logic, it is easily determined that both an all good and all powerful God would both want and be able to prevent all suffering from ever existing, yet suffering persists. Thus the god must either not be all good, and/or all powerful.

Trying to get break the question by saying we can't understand god's motivations is attempting to prove that an all powerful all good god exists because he exists. It doesn't work without the logical jump required by faith.

>>87409759
Well, one human's good is often another human's evil. I don't see why the question can't be broken by saying, "Good is absolute, and independent of human perspective."

>>87409783
>Well, one human's good is often another human's evil. I don't see why the question can't be broken by saying, "Good is absolute, and independent of human perspective."
Then you have severed any reason for humanity to worship that particular god. Because assuming you are right, what made you think the eternal life after death that the god promised isn't actually eternal torture from the human perspective? If the god's words and deeds do not match those of humanity, then any promises made by the religion is suspect and is made untrustworthy.

>>87409759
What about the idea that the afterlife exists? Maybe it's in the next life that justice is truly done.

>>87409783
The problem of evil doesn't actually break under the relativity of good route, because regardless of how you define good and evil, suffering exists within the world. A wholly good being that is also all powerful would be capable and willing, to prevent all suffering. Yet suffering exists.

>>87409824
>What about the idea that the afterlife exists? Maybe it's in the next life that justice is truly done.
Many religions believe this, but they do it assuming that the gods that enforce this have limits in what they do. Your problem with an omnipotent god is that he could get justice for everyone RIGHT NOW, and forever. That's what it means to be omnipotent.

>>87409270
Good point. You see, the argument for the Abrahamic God comes from history. He has been the most long standing, prevailing figure since the beginning of time. While there are other beliefs which talks about morals, only few other than the Abrahamic religion, talks about creation. The Abrahamic religion has been pushing the same (or similar) prophecies, explanations, principles and doctrines since the beginning of time and I found that to be convincing enough evidence of this religion's claim to be the one true voice of God

>>87409824
That still would seemingly place a limit on either God's ability or his will, because a wholly good and all powerful being should have no limits by which that can eliminate suffering, including suffering on Earth.

>>87409818
While an interesting question for someone who isn't actually questioning the idea of truth and reality, once you've made a commitment, either you believe in Cthulhu, or you believe in God. If you believe in Cthulhu...I'm still not sure why you don't just commit suicide. I believe in God. Which is why I don't. (waiting for the "Kill yourself" because Cthulhu ;)

>>87408085

That's not really a rebuttal, though.

yall motherfuckers are being pretty civil for a rabbithole religion thread

good on you

>>87409858
>You see, the argument for the Abrahamic God comes from history. He has been the most long standing, prevailing figure since the beginning of time.
You mean from back when he was married?

Or does that not count and you are pretending his time as a Canaanite war god wasn't the beginning?

>>87408081

It also shifts the narrative of their exodus.

It goes from a panicked, suffering people who desperately grabbed what they could for the long journey, to a bunch of hired help that got pissed off and just left, and stole a bunch of shit on their way out.

>>87409923
>Canaanite war god
that'd make a good movie

>>87409858
I'm pretty sure that Hinduism as a belief structure predates Abrahamic faith, as well as YHWH, and has remained pretty consistent.

Jainism is also incredibly old, nearly as old as Hinduism, thought the modern version of it is "only" about 3000 years old.

>>87409861
>If you believe in Cthulhu...I'm still not sure why you don't just commit suicide
Simple. The human race has evolved to resist suicide. Anyone who is predisposed to kill themselves, tend to do so. I didn't kill myself because I am currently talking to you. Anyone who want to kill themselves are already dead, and are not here in this thread. You might as well ask why Earth can support human life.

>>87409859
How does it place a limit? It's a means by which God can do precisely what you ask. Everyone who dies in this life passes on to the next. It counts as the alleviation of suffering.

>>87409973
But I don't ask why Earth can support human life - because I know. Goldilocks!

>>87409975
Because suffering still exists in some form for there to be an alleviation of suffering.

Again, suffering should not exist in any form if there also exists an all powerful all good god.

For suffering to exist in the mortal realm, on Earth, then God (if all powerful and all good) must either be unable to end and prevent suffering, or must be unwilling. In the first case, they are not all powerful, and in the latter case they are not wholly good.

If suffering can only be relieved in the after life, even if for an eternity, that still means that God is unwilling or unable to prevent it in the mortal world.

>>87409975
>How does it place a limit? It's a means by which God can do precisely what you ask. Everyone who dies in this life passes on to the next. It counts as the alleviation of suffering.
You are now arguing that death doesn't count as suffering. You have not defended your god, you merely pretended that suffering doesn't really count.

It is really fascinating. Do you know why the Japanese doesn't have a cultural taboo concerning suicide? It is because culturally Japan doesn't believe that their afterlife is any better than their living world. Because Japan never treated death like it is a good thing, ritual suicide (for a good reason) is considered noble. While for worshippers of YHWH all the cults that permit suicide have destroyed themselves. And that what remained had to enforce suicide as a taboo, because death is made to be too seductive.

>>87410030
That's too narrow a definition of "good" for my liking.

Sometimes suffering leads to a greater good in a person. Not always, but sometimes.

>>87410014
>But I don't ask why Earth can support human life - because I know. Goldilocks!
You ask why I am still alive. That is the same kind of question. If you WOULD kill yourself if you realise your god isn't what you believe it is, then maybe your link to the land of the living is too tenuous.

>>87410053
And sometimes suffering is seemingly pointless.

But that isn't the point, the point is that suffering exists, and any gains made from suffering could be conferred in other ways by an all powerful being.

Seriously, an all powerful being has absolute dominion over everything. There is no reason for suffering, even if it helps a person grow ( which I doubt is the case for a woman who is gang raped to death or a child soldier shot for not killing their mother when ordered).

Suffering cannot logically coexist with an all good all powerful god.

>>87410053
>That's too narrow a definition of "good" for my liking.
>Sometimes suffering leads to a greater good in a person. Not always, but sometimes.
You are trying to justify all suffering by saying some suffering are all-right. That doesn't add up, I hope you realise that. By that account, the only cases of suffering in the world should ALL lead to greater good. But you know very well that is not true.

>>87410063
I was actually talking about myself. Sorry for the confusion. But seriously - if you served a "god" as evil as Cthulhu, why wouldn't you commit suicide (that's what's always made extended Cthulhu stories seem odd to me).

>>87410112
Why do people who ultimately kill themselves after shooting up a school not just go out by themselves like most people? Increase the body count before you go.

>>87410135
Hmm. Good question. I suppose if you did embrace the unreasoning evil that is Cthulhu, that would make as much sense as anything else, and since we are not meant to be alone, we take that positive drive and turn it to great evil.

>>87392603
>lose seven sons
>Have 14 more sons
What kind of sociopath thinks having twice the amount of children makes up for losing a child?

>>87410112
>I was actually talking about myself. Sorry for the confusion. But seriously - if you served a "god" as evil as Cthulhu, why wouldn't you commit suicide (that's what's always made extended Cthulhu stories seem odd to me).
You see, Lovecraft wrote Cthulhu by interpreting what he believes higher dimensional beings might do.

And one thing Loveraft point out, is that in his mythos, HUMANS DON'T MATTER.

Christianity and the Abraham religions in general, has humanity as the centre of the universe. That human souls and their salvation is meant to be of utmost importance that would decide the fate of the universe. Lovecraft simply realised that this is bullcrap, that if such beings exist then they would be too busy with their own affairs to care what humans do or that we even existed.

Now, some people might kill themselves if they felt so insignificant. But the human race is a part of life on this planet, and there will always be people able to handle themselves and continue to live. That's what life is about.

>>87410091
I think that would be the case if suffering were permanent, but it isn't. It's only a temporary state.

And who are you to say what would be 'better' for humans than what they learn from suffering? You're not God. You don't know humanity as well as its Creator. You presume too much.

>>87410214
>And who are you to say what would be 'better' for humans than what they learn from suffering? You're not God. You don't know humanity as well as its Creator. You presume too much.
Then once again, you are assuming your god has a different view of what he thinks humans want. And as such, leads back to my argument earlier that such a god is unreliable and can't be trusted to deliver salvation.

>implying through heavens eyes isnt the best song
>implying Plagues isnt overrated
>implying Ramses father did anything wrong.
>implying

>>87410209
The difference is that humans are created by God. Cthulhu's just a buttinski. :)

>>87410214
That "presuming" only works when you assume the creator exists, at which point you are no longer trying to solve the problem of evil.

Again, the problem of evil isn't necessarily about the Christian god, but an abstract god that is all powerful and all good. If such a being existed, suffering should not logically exist. It doesn't matter if it is permanent or not, it should never happen in the first place, because an all powerful being would have the means to prevent all suffering, and an all good being would have the will and desire to do so.

You can't prove god exists by saying God exists, which is what you are trying to do.

>>87392824
the original story predates the christian concept of Satan. instead in the original book of Job it is the angel Sah-tahn the Accuser whose job it is to tempt man into sin to see if they are truly devout. God created a whole entity to punk people. I feel like that pretty much puts the blame solely on god.

>>87410256
>humans are created by God.

Only under certain religions. Jainism, for example, has no creator deity.

>>87410243
But salvation has already been delivered. The Resurrection has already taken place. Christianity proceeds from a position that salvation is a settled fact.

>>87410275
I was just comparing Cthulhu to the Christian God.

>>87409144
Of course. How else do you explain trumps success during his campaign? Those new emails were only found because Anthony weiner sexted a 15 year old girl, and now trump is tied with clinton again. If thats not meme magic, I don't know what is.

>>87410275
Do they have an explanation for the origin of man?

>>87410193
When your infant mortality rate is hovering at or near 50%, you gradually learn to harden yourself to the death of your children.
People forget that most kids didn't make it until the advent of modern medicine.

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>>87410307
don't bring retarded discussions like this here, especially if youre going to bring in retarded arguments

>>87409858
>only a few other than Abrahamic religion, talks about creation

Literally every religion has a creation story. No matter how bizarre or unlikely they believe something created something out of nothing.

Also how can a truly kind and loving God damn people to an eternity of torture in hell for transgressions in the mortal life? That part of exisistence is such a short amount of time in the grand scheme it seems pretty strange that god would do that. espcially when it is god who made you to commit those sins?

>>87407670
They got the Romans to worship one of them and then they destroyed it from the inside.

>>87410344
>especially when it is god who made you to commit those sins?
You might want to be more specific with that claim. "Free will" is usually the response.

>>87407670
turned a stick into a snake.

Bet your Romans and Egyptians cant do that shit.

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guys if you want to Christfag this hard we have /pol/

>>87410392
/pol/ hates Christianity, though. They don't believe in the holiness of all life and the possibility of mercy.

>>87410409
you're wrong there buddy, Christanity on /pol/ is the last bastion of non degeneracy, now fuck off there and take your Bible with you

>>87409759
The problem here is that you keep trying to apply mortal logic to an entity that, by definition, is unknowable and omnipotent. God can't be constrained by a paradox for those same reasons.

>>87410307
Basically, the universe was never created but always was, and is governed by natural laws. Humans are born into the world and the soul, which has always existed (uncreated) enters the body.

Jainism, given that it is an eastern religion, it is less concerned with the physical origin of man. There isn't really anything in the faith that would be at odds with the theory of evolution.

If we had to get into it, it would simply be that Humans are material, non living (explain that in a moment) things in the material world that serve as the vessel for the living, uncreated, perfect souls.

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>>87410392
>thread about a biblical animation
>surprised christfags are in it

How could this be happening?