Who was in the right?

>>86781207
Steven was
Steven didn't actually kill anyone, that just doesn't count
Whatever her name was wanted to bring the war back, even though the point of the war was to protect the earth
If Steven didn't stop her, she would have gotten crushed by the sheer force of numbers and superior tech and maybe would have brought the war back

Steven.

Rose was in the wrong for keeping it a secret but was right to not rely on gem shattering weapons when other alternative existed, especially has there was even a possibility the defeated gems might join their rank.

Bubbling seem like an efficient and sure way to keep the defeated gems. Shattering them was pointless and solely motivated by revenge.

>>86781207
Bismuth was trying to murder steven
how is this even a debate?

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>>86781207
Bismuth was right about confronting a genocidal totalitarian regime that literally hollows out planets for its own gain. Approaching these people with any form of mercy after the implied atrocities they continue to commit to is naive and childish.

Bismuth was wrong about trying to murder a child who would hold such a naive opinion.

>>86781207
Neither

>>86781346
>Approaching these people with any form of mercy after the implied atrocities they continue to commit to is naive and childish.
see>>86781247
Shattering them is simply counter productive when there is the the probability the poofed one might rejoin your ranks. Especially when your own amry is quite limited.

Plus, it would have cause a big blow to the moral of the troops (which, in a war is fucking important) as most of the gems they fight are grunt soldiers that have been raised by Diamond propaganda and the one in the rebellion were just like them not so long ago. Remember that they joined Rose for an ideology of Freedom and good leadership try to avoid to punch hole in the ideology that fuel your army.

The regime might be genocidal and totalitarian, but shattering their army do not shatter the regime, it just shatter their soldier that they easily replace. Plus, using shattering weapon would have been feeding the Diamond propaganda as representing the rebellion as bad and evil, discouraging potential gem to rejoin their rank, which for a small rebellious army is fucking vital.

Wanting to reveal into vengeance IS the childish reaction that would have been detrimental to the actual sar effort.

Also, shattering is bad, m'kay

>>86781470
>We mustn't shatter these people that destroy entire planets and wipe out untold amounts of life! That's baaaaaad!
>They might be our friends lol

Found the child. Though given the flippancy of SU writing it will likely go down like this.

Bismuth was wrong because unlike humans you can fully incapacitate and easily incarcerate gems without needing to kill them, which is especially important when dealing with an enemy that doesn't know any better and could be easily reformed.

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>>86781207
steven

We kill people in war because there's no 100% foolproof method of containing people for an indefinite period of time.

Gems can be kept in bubbles indefinitely.

>ok you have a sword that can instantly one-shot any gem
>but what if you lined up a perfect shot with this clunky piledriver to go to homeworld and murder the upper class citizens?

bismuth is retarded

>>86781499
>literal straw man fallacy.
Are you doing this on prupose or did you not even bother reading what I wrote.

I am talking about essential tools of the war that are propaganda, ideology, moral of the troops, seeking of new recruits, unbalanced warfare and efficiency and the potential switch-sider

and you attempt to counter these fucking essential point of warfare with "the Diamond are evil, everything linked to them must be destroyed" argument? You are the childish one, anon.
"The diam

>>86781207
Bismuth, Rose was a muh morals tard that got innocent gems killed because HURR LETS BE FREE AND SHIET guys. Daily reminder every dead crystal gem is Rose's fault if she never rebelled none of them would have died.
>Hurr Bismuth is bad for wanting to kill a child
Its like you retards dont get these are FUCKING ALIENS Bismuth has no concept of child all she see is matter in different forms, she sees killing Steven the same as say as killing Greg.

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>>86781583
No, the show is retarded.

You can clearly see the moral dilemma they INTENDED to propose, but they failed to create a scenario that fit it. All they had to do was have Bismuth create a weapon that would actually be way way more effective and super useful to defeat the enemy, instead of a literal spike on a glove. Should have been like a nuclear mega laser that sucks the life out of gems or something, a game-changer.

>>86781499
Gems are only spreading her empire, that's their nature. Rose probably would make them understand what is the real value of organic life but Pink Diamond was shattered (probably by Pearl and Rose take the blame) and now Homeworld is taking this war very personal.

>>86781581
>We kill people in war because
We like to kill people, fixed that for you pacifist pussy. We only avoid killing humans that arent in the war like civilians but soldiers are fair game.

I find it weird that they didn't point out that Bismuth was a Homeworld Gem, too, and if Rose and the others (most of which were also Homeworld Gems) used the logic she operates under and didn't try to help her, she would've been shattered immediately, and she would've never found that niche she loves, helping out the rebellion making weapons and armor for them

>>86781654
Organic life has no value its just softer moving matter to gems.

>>86781499
>They might be our friends lol
The rebellion is literally made up of gems who defected

Breaking them has no tactical advantage, not even as fast as poofing them.

Reminder, Rose killed for fun.

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>>86781642
>All they had to do was have Bismuth create a weapon that would actually be way way more effective and super useful to defeat the enemy
Rose already found one

In normal human war, theres no option to "poof" anyone, where you can scoop them up for later. In war, you shoot and you shoot to kill. Nonlethal options are also much less effective.

This alternative changes everything. Rose's sword was said to be designed specifically for cutting through the physical form, not the gem. Theres little reason to not opt for the more humane, and just as effective, method.

>>86781583
Both have the exact same effective range. It's not like one is a gun or something.

Bismuth and rose had inconsistent understandings of the war.

Bismuth continually said the war was to free the gems, but she wanted to use lethal force against them. You can't save gems you also kill.

Rose said the war was to save the earth. Well, to save the earth the best thing to do is to kill every last gem living on it, but she didn't want to do that.

>>86781754
Isn't poofing just the equivalent of knocking somebody unconscious for gems? You get poofed, you get back up a few minutes/hours/days later wondering what happened and just glad nobody drew a dick on you

>>86781822
The skull isn't some power down button. If you hit someone hard enough to knock them out, chances are you've either given them a concussion, or they're close to death.

>>86781822
Essentially yes, and bubbling is a risk and resource free indefinite stasis.

Off-topic, but does anybody find it weird that despite being on earth for nearly 5 millennia, Rose and the Gems barely found and poofed any corrupted Gems, based on the room in the temple with all of them, and yet in the year or two that Steven's been there, it's more than doubled?

>>86781642
I mean it was a prototype, but yeah.

>>86781685
Rose probably did. Bismuth didn't give a fuck.

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Bismuth was clearly in the wrong due to the fact that the alternative to shattering is so much easier and had the potential for easy PoW that could be turned to your side or used for information/tools.
Bismuth was flatly wasting resources.

The REAL moral quandary here, is if Rose was in the right for what she did with Bismuth.
>One of her original, high moral soldiers starts to step out of line in your campaign of "freedom"
>She poofs and bubbles her in private without anyone knowing
>claims that she went MIA during a battle
>Never tells anyone about the truth

On the one hand, what she did seems to be horribly irresponsible and rash.
However, if she had let Bismuth go, or let others know of Bismuth's capture/the dispute, it could have sown seeds of dissention in the ranks, essentially splitting the CGs down the lines of Pro-Shattering and Anti-Shattering.

Basically, this is like if MLK took out Malcom X before he started to gain any traction.

Did Rose make the right decision in dealing with Bismuth?

>>86781754
>Rose's sword was said to be designed specifically for cutting through the physical form
This is horseshit, how the fuck can a sword not cut a rock?

>>86781685
>revolutionaries who resort to extreme violence are hypocrites

Shocking, I know.

>>86781927
>He thinks gems that are engineered to fight and die for HW will join something against HW

Reminder the HW gems constantly interrogated Lapis because they thought she was a CG.

Steven overreacted to the breaking point.
Bismuth was worse by trying to kill him the moment he said no.

>>86781499
>The frontline pigs are the ones responsible for their policies

>>86781655
>We like to kill people
untrue. We like to protect what we consider our territories as well as out clan.

Most human have a repulsion toward killing, because it goes against our sense of empathy that is engrained in our instinct.

>>86781346
They wouldn't have gone around exclusively shattering Diamonds, using the Breaking Point means killing half the people you are trying to save from the genocidal totalitarian regime.

>>86781951
By that logic, the rebellion shouldn't resist.

>>86781207
Both ideals have flaws. The key is how easy it is to work around those flaws.
Since gems can be stopped without having to die, Steven has a point. No need to murder when you can trap the enemy, and even find ways to rehabilitate or teach them the importance of life.

>>86781207
Steven.

Just because you disagree with someone politically regarding the use of brutal, slightly unethical weapons is NO JUSTIFICATION for suddenly turning traitor, flying into a violent rage and trying to murder your teammate/ team leader / liberator. Repeatedly. Especially when the person you're murdering is clearly a frightened child in tears, begging you to calm down and talk it out.
And especially especially when you were imprisoned as a result of the first murder attempt and have, yourself, referred to getting out as "getting a second chance" - only to turn traitor and try to resort to murder again as soon as someone disagrees with you.

You don't betray your fucking teammates like that. You don't act all buddy buddy together till the END CRYSTAL GEMMMS and then suddenly without any warning try to full-on murder them the moment when they don't agree with your views.

>>86781207
Bismuth. history has show that unless you finish your enemies they will just keep coming, subverting you till you fall. also you can't always talk your way out of conflict, at least not without having no values or altering enemy minds

>>86781346
Bismuth would have wanted to use the BP in battle, against gems like Peridot, Jasper, Rose or even Bismuth who were only doing what they're told to do, and who never got to make a single free choice about anything. I mean Bismuth herself had never thought to question the HW authority or her orders before Rose asked her what *she* wanted to do, but she would have happily shattered gems just like her before they ever got that chance to think for themselves.

She talks about "taking the fight to the diamonds", but she doesn't at all imply she would ONLY have used the BP to shatter the diamonds, they'd have used it on the front lines. Which is going against everything the rebellion stood for.

>>86781930
Literal magic.

>>86781247
We have no background info, we don't know how many prisoners rose took or have many gem lives could have been saved by having a shattering weapon

>>86782152
>history has show that unless you finish your enemies they will just keep coming
Ah, yes, this why the UK and France have completely destroyed each other, oh wait!...

>>86782161
At least Bismuth would have saved some lives, Rose caused everyone but a duo of sick fucks, and a defective slave to live.

>>86781470
>Diamond propaganda
There is no Diamond propaganda, they are almost like robots, each is made for something.

>>86781470
>Freedom and good leadership try to avoid to punch hole in the ideology that fuel your army.
except liberalism has never won a war, you take other ideology to win and then you make the shift.

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>>86781346
Granted Bismuth knew nothing about Human Biology

>>86782187
West Euros are pacifist pussies.

>>86781470
>Plus, using shattering weapon would have been feeding the Diamond propaganda as representing the rebellion as bad and evil, discouraging potential gem to rejoin their rank, which for a small rebellious army is fucking vital.
That would imply that no enemy gem got shattered ever. even without this weapon there was a lot of killing going on

>>86781499
Anon the show is making it very clear the grunt gems do not have any sort of choice about anything. Every single gem in Rose's army, including Bismuth and Rose, was originally a HW grunt gem, the CG are just ones that got the right questions and arguments presented to them, got the time to think about it, and decided to defect.

It's one thing to assassinate the diamonds, and a very fucking different thing to shatter the same slaves you're trying to liberate, the same slaves that everyone in your fucking army was till very recently, the same slaves you yourself were one of, once.

>>86782240
Oh boo hoo people fucking die to cause progress in society its just reality.

>>86781532
except you don't have that luxury when your group is 5 guys in temple. also having the weapon does not mean using it on everyone, you could shatter some and convert others
>>86781581
>We kill people in war because there's no 100% foolproof method of containing people for an indefinite period of time.
we kill them because if we dance around, they may kill us (you may note that rose got nuked in the end) + humans need food, etc.

>>86781630
>that got innocent gems killed
But even if they would have used the BP, and it would actually have turned the tide of the fight, the Diamonds would just have nuked Earth from orbit earlier and everyone would have died just the same, only that the CG would have completely shat on their moral principles. Bismuth says that Rose got the CG killed but it just shows what she knows, she was out when the damage from the diamonds hit and doesn't know shit.

>Daily reminder every dead crystal gem is Rose's fault if she never rebelled none of them would have died.
If she never rebelled there would be no organic life on Earth. Are you a retard anon

>>86782217
>except liberalism has never won a war
It sure made happens the second war in Iraq, though.

>>86781628
I think you don't see how often actions of one side does not match their propaganda and how they later cover it with historic retcons. They need not act in according to their doctrine, they only need to put up the facade for new troop

>>86781630
Also
>If she never rebelled none of them would have died

Seeing how HW is being painted as a truly evil space nazi society where every gem who doesn't perfectly fit and fulfill their intended purpose will be PURGED AND HARVESTED it seems like quite a few of them might have died just for not being good enough at whatever, or fighting on some other front - after all, Jasper's been fighting apparently non-stop since she broke free of Earth's crust even though the rebellion ended 5300 or so years ago. It's not like everything would have been peaceful and wonderful if not for the rebellion - otherwise why would anyone have joined it

>>86781838
Or brain damage that'll start to manifest some years later. There's a reason so many boxers are fucked up when they retire

>>86781654
>probably would make them understand
and if they say no? also since she was in front of blue diamond than she probably had other chances to talk to them as well. lost of horror out of apathy/alien outlook maybe a good gut punch in a horror movie but does not make for good overarching plot to action adventure

>>86782269
Fuck yourself calling me a teenager for being a pragmatist while you are just a pussy.
>>86782283
>only that the CG would have completely shat on their moral principles.
What moral principles?

HURR LETS RUIN A ORDERLY SOCIETY BY REBELLING AGAINST IT

HURR LETS KILL THE ONE WHO ALLOWED ORDER IN THIS SOCIETY

HURR LETS MAKE PEOPLE WHO WERE IN POSITIONS IN THIS ORDERLY SOCIETY MURDER EACHOTHER OR JUST PUT THEM TO SLEEP FOREVER

HURR LETS FIND REJECTED PEOPLE TO MAKE AS OUR ARMY

Rose is a goddamn psychopath.
>If she never rebelled there would be no organic life on Earth. Are you a retard anon
How is this a gem's problem?

>>86781817
>You can't save gems you also kill.
stalin managed. you recall how in the matrix they gun down civ pop, its like that

>>86781927
>starts to step out of line
Bismuth attacked and fought Rose with the intent to shatter though, based on how she instantly flew into a murderous rage the second she thought she was dealing with Rose.

Trying to murder your liberator/leader/friend because you disagree with them politically and they don't let you get your way is a bit fucking more than "stepping out of line".

Most likely Rose just didn't want to ruin the morale of her troops, didn't want the CG to know how their friend turned into a rabid murderous traitor, but rather let them keep their good memories and told them she went MIA.

Sort of like you'd lie to a mother of a soldier that yeah they went down with honour even though in fact they were a cowardly little shit who shat themselves and literally tried to defect before getting shot down because fucker forgot to keep his head down

>>86782384
>Fuck yourself calling me a teenager for being a pragmatist while you are just a pussy.
"human enjoy war and killing" is not pragmatism, it's being an against teenager.

The natural reaction of humans (and most mammals) is to avoid conflict. He naturally tend toward self-preservation and preservation of the clan.

For one to actively kill, he must feel himself or what he consider his belonging threatened and going on a full-scale war require drilling and propaganda.

>>86781822
>knocking somebody unconscious
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TapOnTheHead
get education from somewhere other than tv

>>86782326
Gem society is a utopia because there are no variables in gem behavior, everything can be measured and generalized thus they most problematic impulsive gems are left in their areas and never associate with the more civilized gems.

>>86781583
That's because it's not a weapon It's an execution device. You have a point, it's impractical to use in combat due to its size and weight, the only way to effectively use it would be to hold the gem you're going to shatter down and make them watch as the piston ends their existence

>>86781927
>Bismuth was clearly in the wrong due to the fact that the alternative to shattering is so much easier and had the potential for easy PoW that could be turned to your side or used for information/tools.
>Bismuth was flatly wasting resources.
except no one in the show made that argument

>>86782436
Humans dont kill for self defense, they kill because murder feels good fool.

>>86781838
>>86782437
It was just a quick example, if I wanted to use a real-life example, maybe... keeping somebody constantly doped up so they can't do anything other than lay in bed

>>86782187
UK/France conflict had many proxy wars and ultimately got sidetracked by outside forces and after a refocusing they found that both countries only had the name of the old countries while internally having changed to an unrecognizable degree

>>86782193
> Bismuth would have saved some lives
Nah. The Diamonds would have nuked everything just the same, possibly only sooner. The only thing they would have achieved is a crumbling of morale when the CG would have known that now they're shattering the same gems they themselves were maybe just a month or so ago, which goes against everything they supposedly stood for.

Bismuth claims that Rose's friendly tactics led to the CG's loss, but it's just because she's an ignorant retard and doesn't know about the Diamond nuke. And she refused to talk about it, too, resorting to immediate violence instead.

That's the irony of it. She became murderous over nothing, and would have found it out if only she wasn't so hot-headed.

Fucking phone browser made my post a thread so I'm copy/pasting it:27 KB
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Is this a hidden /k/ thread about nuclear weapons and Hiroshima, or does everyone not realize Rose's goal was to NOT kill anyone?

>>86782159
>We could do it nonlethally like with a sport competition but prefer mass murder.
only retard thinks this. no you can't wage territory in a chess match between presidents

>>86782457
Doubt it. We never would have gone past warrior culture if that was true.

>>86782384
Are you actually trying to argue that the HW society is good and just only because it's "orderly"? Militant totalitarianism where citizens are murdered if they can't perform perfectly in their govt-assigned positions is ideal to you, because there's no dissent because it's immediately squashed?

Do you think North Korea is paradise on Earth, because boy oh boy it's so orderly there?

"Goddamn psychopath", fucking really? Are you trolling?

most gems on Rose's side seem to default to her rank in the hierarchy. her refusal to make the option public to others shows that while she is willing to have some customization she likes to keep major choices to herself

>>86782440
>Gem society is a utopia
It's really being painted as a non-utopia. Even Lapis who loved it, was in a high-ranking aristocratic position (based on the dress) and wanted nothing else than to go home hates what it's become. There's something really wrong there. Even Peridot says that "Earth can set you free"

Rose was right to rebel.

>>86782283
>If she never rebelled there would be no organic life on Earth
so? its not my earth. he is saying gems would be alive, not humans

>>86782547
Shut up your just a hedonist human monkey that cant conceptualize a world where your pleasure isnt fulfilled all the time.

NK is nothing like Gem H.W.
>>86782499
All of your retorts are HURR GEM NUKE, Diamond were gonna nuke anyway and if Bismuth had her way more CGs would have been saved by Rose's shield dumbass.

>>86782573
see >>86782326

>>86782431
Except she left Bismuth's bubble in Lion with a bunch of shit clearly meant for Steven.

>>86782572
>Rose was right to rebel.
assumptions. she was defective and corrupted the whole line, maybe do to lack of resources they made shortcuts with her or one of the top dogs experiment went out of control

>>86782256
Lmao are you retarded? Poofing is so nuch easier, theres no reason to shatter grunt gems unless they have no chance to be reformed

>>86782572
Who cares what Lapis says shes a retard that wandered into a fucking war. Peridot and Jasper seem A-ok with current H.W and Eyeball is from the Rebellion's time.

>>86782457
how many have you murdered? have you even cut a fishes head?

>>86782457
>they kill because murder feels good fool.
No, people kill to expand their territory/possession.

>>86782591
>Shut up your just a hedonist human monkey
Wow, such impressive arguments

>if Bismuth had her way more CGs would have been saved by Rose's shield
How the fuck do you figure that? Explain to me exactly how brutally shattering more gems would have led to Rose's shield magically expanding so much it would have shielded more of her troops than just Garnet and Pearl?

You're just pulling retarded shit out of your ass because you can't deal with being shown to be wrong

>>86782623
Grunt gems are programmed to always be loyal to HW unless they are mentally ill like Ruby.

>>86782457
>le epic sociopath

>>86782547
yes. you are projecting human values and emotions onto beings that are not human. its like being outraged about how ant society is structured

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Rose is basically Movie Optimus Prime.

>>86782616
>she was defective and corrupted the whole line, maybe do to lack of resources they made shortcuts with her or one of the top dogs experiment went out of control

>whines about assumptions
>goes ahead and presents outrageous assumptions with no basis in the show whatsoever as fact

lmao

>>86782547
>orderly there?
also unrelated but nothing is orderly in North korea

>>86782648
BP instantly kills gems meaning they would have been less war casualities for the CGS meaning Rose could have saved more with her shield when they dropped the nuke.

>>86782660
But every gem who rebelled and joined the CG army also agreed with Rose. Do you think they were all psychopaths? Is Peridot a psychopath, after all she thinks that Earth is great and can set you free?

The thing is that it's not just humans who find the HW abhorrent, it's the gems themselves. As soon as someone opens their eyes to the existence of "choice", they seem to turn on HW.

>>86782678
also + being orderly is not even their goal, its an ideological marxist cult and everything else comes secondary. There are many instances of people starving, trains not running on time , etc ,etc because of miscalculations, nepotism, etc. they get by with blackmail

>>86782592
non of them had an issues till rose "awakened' them

>>86782652
Considring there were enough Crystal Gems to pose a legitimate threat to the Earth colony, rise up, retake every sight, and shatter Pink Diamond, and that Sapphire was willing to give up her life as an aristocrat for a common soldier, I'd say defecting was pretty alluring.

>>86782623
Why did not steven poof the ruby instead of throwing it into the void?

>>86782711
Peridot is a tard who turned against HW for nonsense like PRETTY EARTH LIFE.

>>86782742
first people on the land were not combat gems
>Sapphire
was 1 in a million as the show itself has said

>>86782711
Bismuth doesnt give a shit about H.W's immoral policies she was an engineer gem so she was mad her autism couldnt be used in her own ways, she wanted to design her own buildings and weapons and shit she never once cared about gem oppression.

>>86782702
>they would have been less war casualities for the CGS meaning Rose could have saved more with her shield

How the fuck does that follow? Are you so fucking retarded you think that Rose shielded everyone who was still alive when the nuke hit?

Both poofing and shattering have the same effect - incapacitation, and shattering a gem and poofing them take the same effort. Therefore it's questionable if shattering opponents would actually have affected the CG casualties at all. And in any case, it definitely wouldn't have had anything to do with the size of Rose's shield, and thus Rose wouldn't have been able to shield any more gems than she did no matter how many gems they killed.

Your arguments are illogical.

>>86782733
Are you sure? Or did they just think that the only options are obeying or getting harvested/shattered?

If they were happy or content, why the hell would they have joined the rebellion?

>>86782652
You know the entire cg army was grunt gems though right? Pearls are basically house slaves

>>86782781
Its implied that Pearl and Garnet were the last ones left when Jasper said this is all thats left when she first arrived on Earth.

Your arguments are illogical moralfag.

>>86782793
Pearl is slave to Rose, she only did what she did because she is Rose's slave.
>>86782792
Boredum

>>86782711
>Peridot
Peridot is a total case of being converted by individuals instead of the cause. you know the generic story about a boy joining rebels because some cute girl is in the same cell, its that but with friendship. even beyond that she is ignorant of everything not relating to her designation, her scope was not and is not big enough to make informed political choices (she is the redneck voter)

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>>86781346
The argument against this is that using it against the grunts is wrong but many of the grunts we've seen express very little remorse regarding their actions and especially little concern for the life they're ending.

Even Pearl seems to view humans as nothing but inferior little creatures leading inconsequential lives during the earlier episodes. Peridot didn't waste time trying to kill Steven the first time they interacted. Is it so worth reasoning with a force that more often than not is eager to kill you?

Bismuth herself didn't seem to care about humans or even know much about them. She just harbored extreme contempt for the higher castes of gems in their society, enough to make her want to attack a gem hybrid child because they disagreed.

I wonder if humanity in this show is going to remain blissfully oblivious to the fact there was/is an alien force perfectly capable of wiping them out and hollowing their planet for resources.

>>86781951
Literally all the Crystal Gems were made to be loyal to HW. They defected for a reason.

>>86782863
No only Ruby was made to be loyal, the others are higher gems thus have more flexible mental states thats why Rose and Sapphire can defect.

>>86781207
Steven

Steven is always right, even when he is wrong.

>>86781583
I'd like to think the piledriver was a prototype she showed off to Rose. I think it was the principal behind Bismuth's invention rather than its actual effectiveness of that particular weapon that caused Rose to betray Bismuth.

Plus, in all likelihood Bismuth reacted like the angry ape she is when Rose dared to defy Bismuth's vision of a true "crystal gem", which caused Rose to put her down.

>>86782937
>caused Rose to betray Bismuth
Other way around

>>86781951
>He thinks gems that are engineered to fight and die for HW will join something against HW
You mean gems like Rose Quartz, Pearl, Ruby, Sapphire, Bismuth, Lapis and Peridot?
Literally the only gem we've seen that wasn't specifically programmed/carved to serve Home World is Amethyst because she's a failed abortion.

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I guess there's gonna be much more to reveal about Rose's sword, seeing how Bismuth seemed to have only forged one of its kind, probably due to some resource shortage.

>>86781951
>who are the crystal gems
>who is peridot

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>>86782887
Rose was a Quartz soldier just like Jasper. Realistically she would be lower class than Sapphire.

Also in Greg The Babysitter Rose said whenever a gem is born they know what their purpose is. Theres no reason this would be any different.

>>86781207
me for not watching steven universe

>>86781245
>Whatever her name was wanted to bring the war back
This is my biggest problem with the episode. When Bismuth asks what the status of the war is, they go into some tirade about "Homeworld keeps sending their troops and attacking over and over" that makes her think that homeworld has been a constant presence since the war ended. If they had just said "homeworld sent a couple of annoying scouts, but have left us alone otherwise", her reaction probably would have been much different.

>lets throw away potential resources and kill people because muh feelings

There is no reason to kill gems instead of bubbling them. Bubbling takes less effort and there's a possibility of converting the gem.

>>86782794
>Its implied that Pearl and Garnet were the last ones left when Jasper said this is all thats left when she first arrived on Earth.
I dearly hope I'm being baited because if you're actually this fucking stupid it's tragic.

Pearl and Garnet are the last ones left because they were the only ones who fit behind Rose's shield when the nuke hit. P and G are the last ones left AFTER the nuke because everyone else, who didn't fit behind the shield but who were there, were corrupted in the nuke. This is made very clear by the show.

So again, Rose was unable to shield anyone else except herself, Pearl and Garnet, even though there were other CG still around when the nuke hit. So even if they'd have shattered their enemies, regardless of the amount of CG around, the end result of the nuke would have been the same - Rose, Pearl, Garnet behind the shield, everyone else nuked to corruption.

Bismuth's BP wouldn't have changed anything, shattering the HW grunts would not have had any effect whatsoever on how many gems fit behind Rose's shield. Everyone would still have gotten corrupted.

Do you understand? Or is this too complicated for you?

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>>86782994
Presumably all those shitty Jaspers from the Beta kindergarten fought in the war as well. Amethyst would have fought if she popped out in time. Though yeah, I wonder how exactly do gems know what their purpose would be upon forming for the first time, since Amy seems pretty feral/childish.

Lapis has never explicitly stated what her purpose as a HW gem is, other than that she felt wildly out of place in the new HW.

>>86782384
>Fuck yourself calling me a teenager for being a pragmatist while you are just a pussy.
See, if you WEREN'T a teenager, you'd have a thicker skin.

Now get off the computer, sweetie, it's a school night.

>>86782773
Nigga that was just an example. Sapphire herself isnt even very useful. I'm simply referring to the fact that an entire army was formed out of just defective gems. Bubbling and reforming homeworld gems would be helpful. There was no way Rose could have known that the Diamonds would nuke everyone, and shattering gems wouldnt even have solved that anyway

>>86782572

Can I just say that I fucking hate this?

At first, Sugar said that there were no villains. When we started learning more about Homeworld, that seemed true; they were doing bad things to planets like Earth, but they were doing it because they HAD to. It was a really gray area and I appreciated it. Nobody, be it the Rebellion or the Authority, was really right or wrong.

But as new information continues to trickle in it's becoming more and more clear that Homeworld is just Generic Evil Totalitarian Empire #5269, and that just pisses me off to no end.

>>86782937
I question whether it was Bismuth who chimped out. I could very easily see Rose being so offended by the concept that she lost her shit and overreacted.

Hell, Bismuth's problem at the end of the episode wasn't even Steven's refusal to use the weapon. It was clear that she only showed the weapon to Steven as a way to confirm that he really wasn't just Rose bullshitting everyone. If he had used it, that would have proven that he was, in fact, a separate entity from Rose. When he refused, she completely snapped because she thought it meant that Rose was still running around lying to everyone about what happened. The whole conflict centered around Rose rather than the weapon.

>>86783118
>At first, Sugar said that there were no villains.
did she? I see a lot of fans putting wishfull thinking into the creators's mouth, when it comes to SU.

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>>86783171
>"I didn't want to fight you! But you left me no choice!!"

She chimped out.

>>86783118
>When we started learning more about Homeworld, that seemed true; they were doing bad things to planets like Earth, but they were doing it because they HAD to
Uh, no? it was never told or implied that they HAD TO. Like, ever. All we knew was that what homeworld was doing was bad for earth. No infos on whether or not it was necessary for HW.

>>86783225
Before the show premiered, the interviewer asked if the show had an Ice King-esque villain character. Her response was something like "no, there's nothing like that. They're fighting against something much bigger." and mentioned something about how they're fighting against an ideological system rather than a villain.

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>>86782624
Jasper is a roided out autist and Peridot literally joined the Crystal Gems.

>>86783118
just because the gem society is deeply flawed doesnt mean that the individuals who make it up are inherently evil

>>86782193
>Rose caused everyone but a duo of sick fucks, and a defective slave to live.
>Opposing an oppressive regime
>Still looking down on the very things they look down on

>>86783118
That is like, not what happened at all.

What we first leanred is that the Monsters where actually Gem and that the CG didn't trust Lapis.

Later we learned that Homeworld was doing something that was hurting the hearth, at no point was it implied it was necessary.

the we saw Peridot and she was established as a cold motherfucker who don't give a fuck about her roboïds. And later she tried to crush down Steven like it was a pest.

Then the giant hand came and it was immediately established as bad news. And we saw Jasper pop up and one one of the first thing she ordered was to blast the CG to dust.

I don't know where you get the idea that there was a gray area when it cames to HW, but it was established as bad very early on.

Actuallly what got a shifting tone was Rose, who went from a perfect leader figure to a more questionanble, more flawed ebing who made some questionable decision.

But HW was never presented as gray. In fact it's only in later pisodes with Peridot trying to learn to shapeshift that we learned for the first time that HW migth actually have resource problem. that's the first area of grey and it came way late in the show.

>>86783274
Well, you still haven't show the exact quote, but if this is true, she wasn't lying.

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>>86783118
It depends which way they're going to go with this, because they haven't even gotten out of the solar system yet, much less tried to stop the Gempire

>>86781930
Well if they're projected forms are supposed to be light based, even hard light based, all she'd need is for the sword to be some ultra-reflective type of material or it's something that can absorb light at an astounding rate.

Rose's original item projection is a shield, and as we've seen with Bismuth's ability to create insane fucking upgrades to already existing projections, it's possible Rose would've just had a specific goal in mind when she asked for a sword.

Honestly I don't remember the sword cutting through the ground or anything else when ever Connie handled it, and for that matter something that size should be hard as hell for a girl her age to lift around unless it wasn't made of light materials or at least hallow on the inside.

>>86783363
It's such an older interview that I can never find the damn thing when people ask for a source. The best I could find within a few minutes was a version of the interview that jumps between quotes and just summarizing what she said, so it leaves out the exact details.
>But we won't necessarily see that many iconic villains on Steven Universe, says Sugar — the Gems aren't dealing with a particular person, but something "bigger than that." There's not "really a singular enemy." Instead, the conflict will be within the group, and it'll be about Steven figuring out what's right.

>>86781346
problem with that is that the Breaking Point is not an effective weapon. It requires you to have essentially already defeated or disarmed the enemy, and have them in a position where you have a clean shot at their Gem.

In MELEE RANGE.

It's not a weapon of war, it's barely even a weapon at all! It is at best the Gem equivalent to a guillotine.

Also unlike Humans, Gems can in fact be indefinitely disabled without killing or maiming them. This significantly alters the way in which wars are fought. Especially when your enemy is also your pool of manpower.

Besides, killing the enemy gem deprives you of both intel and hostages.

>>86781499
Except yes, that is exactly how the Crystal Gems get their recruits.

The Diamonds have their Kindergartens, but the CGs had to rely on recruitment and Rose's tears to keep their army in the fight.

>>86781583
This

>>86782159
You fucking nigger we have to break down the individual will of our soldiers through training to deal with the psychological impact of killing. It isn't something that comes naturally to most of humanity, nor does rushing into a battle.

There's a reason professional armies shit all over militia, and it's all about how their training enables them to do things that are decidedly not natural. And gear.

>>86783171
>I question whether it was Bismuth who chimped out. I could very easily see Rose being so offended by the concept that she lost her shit and overreacted.
It's very very clear and obvious it's Bismuth who chimped out. Rose wouldn't let her get her way with words, so "she had no other choice" but to fight her.

Bismuth very clearly has a tendency to get carried away by her aggression. It's shown she gets emotional, she gets overwhelmed by her feelings and desire to CRUSH THE ENEMY.

>It was clear that she only showed the weapon to Steven as a way to confirm that he really wasn't just Rose
No, it's not clear at all. I got the feeling she really wanted to use the BP and saw Rose missing as a new chance to persuade the CG into using it.

The whole conflict centered around Bismuth's irrational class hatred and desire for vengeance and pointless, brutal violence for violence's sake, which drove her into abandoning the core principles of the rebellion and attacking her friend.

>>86783517
Well, that sound about. And it sure doesn't mean "there won't be no villains".

>>86781562
When the only way to build your army is to convert the enemy, then yes, they win when you kill them

>>86783722
>bubbling is fulton extraction

>>86782159
...Have you ever actually been through boot camp?

>>86783517
link that interview at least pls

also thanks. I see the "sugar said there won't be any villains on the show" thing thrown around a lot, it's good to know the real version

>>86782384
He says, while living in a liberal society with the quality of life it has provided him.

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You know guys, I think it's just easier to say that Rebecca can't write a compelling plot.

>>86784030
Then why am I so compelled?

>>86784061

Since the show isn't compelling, someone has to fill the void.

>the authority has such fine control of gem development that new gems come out of the ground already knowing exactly what their purpose is, and are equipped with the knowledge and skills required to fill that purpose
>even their personalities are tailored to fit their given role
>essentially this means that the only reason gems have anything even resembling free will is because the authority not only allows it, but in fact designs them that way
>the authority then takes these free-willed gems and stacks them into an oppressively deterministic hierarchy where individuality and imperfection are harshly punished
>the authority then gets its shit pushed in by the inevitable rebellion it apparently could not see brewing

Guys... are the Diamonds retarded?

>>86782748
How the fuck would he have poofed her? Shes physically stronger, about to kill him, and he has no weapon.

>>86783786
http://io9.gizmodo.com/steven-universe-is-a-show-about-fantasys-love-affair-1458060916
Again, there was more to it than what's in this article, but that's the gist of it.

https://discord.gg/NWKS9

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>>86781207

Would you read a porn comic between Connie and her mom or her mom and Pearl?

I'm just looking for sugestions for a Steven Universe porn comic.

>>86784726
Do Steven and Connie first. Cute and potentially hot

>>86784549
I guess its more like mass breeding animals or pedigreing plants and less like a robot production line.
Gems are ageless, but I wonder what the earliest gems were like. Probably unrefined messes with a shit ton of raw power.

>>86781642
this basically convinces me that it's some kind of weird rule in the show that no gem is allowed to have any kind of handheld 'gun' weapon. It's not even that they all have to be medieval or ancient styled, the Breaking Point and the Destabilizers don't really fit that, it's just a rule against gem guns

maybe they just feel like blasters/laser rifles are too boring and cliche in sci-fi stories

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>>86784549
I don't think they have control over how gems act when they emerge. Unless we're told otherwise, I feel it's safe to assume they just act because that's what they know their purpose is.

The issue is they're emotional beings with a predefined purpose. If their personal feelings conflict with their purpose, they'll inevitably revolt once the idea gets into their head. By the way Bismuth spoke of Rose, it sounded like Bismuth always hated her purpose, but the idea of betraying that purpose was such an alien concept, it simply never occurred to her. Rose herself said she was entirely inspired by the human ability to simply be what you want to be.

>>86783306
How is H.W oppresive? These are fuckin aliens dude I bet you think ants or bees live in an oppressive society.
>>86783801
Conservatives provided the infrastructure for our society while liberals tear it down and celebrate making humans stupid apes becuase MUH HEDONISM is more important than water.

>>86781988
They're just as guilty

>>86781207
Bizmuth was right.

If our enemies are killing us, we should kill them

Just like how we should grind ISIS/Al-Qaeda/and the like into dust.

No rehabilitation programs for those fuckers. Kill them all.

>>86785364
They're both important you sperg.

Conservatism promotes industrial progress and efficiency.

Liberalism promotes fair treatment of all people and preservation of a sustainable environment.

Pure conservatism would result in the lowest class licking the boots of the rich to earn their next meal, only to be disposed of the second their value is exhausted, all while the world gets ripped apart for resources at the whim of profits rather than progress.

Pure liberalism would result in a world so afraid of moving forward and stepping on anyone's toes, we'd end up cocooning ourselves in red tape and making it impossible to advance as a species.

A balance is imperative, but people get so wound up in the "us vs them" mindset that has been played up by every media outlet ever that people forget to look world objectively.

>>86781207
I hope Steven runs into an enemy he can't poof.

>>86785182
Peridot had one until it got thrown away. They never really did anything with it, though.

>>86785492
Poofing is literally superior to shattering though and easier. Rose already was "killing" her enemies. Theres no reason to take it the sadistic step forward and shatter

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>>86785364
>Meme politics

You know nothing of conservatism or liberalism. Fuck off to Saudi Arabia if you want to live in a caliphate so bad

>>86784654
thanks

>>86785903
I think Bismuth was wrong, but some gems are like Amethyst where they can regenerate in less than a minute. If you're unable to bubble or otherwise contain them in that short time, you've effectively left yourself open to being overwhelmed from gems getting what is essentially a second wind if they remain uncaptured.

That said, we've seen Opal is able to bubble gems at a distance immediately after poofing them, meaning the only disadvantage to poofing can be negated with the right circumstances.

>>86782161
Gee, all of this implying sure is giving me a workout!

>>86785903
But as far as applying Gem fights to human morality, Bismuth is right.

Poofing is the equivalent to being thrown in prison, right? Well, if that is the case, we most certainly can imprison our enemies. In fact, capturing enemies is very rewarding; you interrogation them for information on top of removing them from the battle space.

But there is a problem.

Capturing high-level Taliban/AQ/ISIS/etc commanders is a very dangerous and risky business. Not only could the target be killed in the altercation, but your own troops (the ones you care about more than the enemy) could be killed. Plus, when the target is in prison, there's no garuntee you'll get anything meaningful out of them. They train money and food, and their pals are always trying to break them out of prison in either elaborate escape plans, or all out "suicide-bomb the front door, kill as many Americans as possible, and try to bust out our guy"

Complications like that often push people to just kill the target. It's easier, its safer, it gives the enemy a taste of our vengeance

>>86781642
>No, the show is retarded.
t. random shitposter

How big this discussion got shows this isnt just a "sjw faggot pussy" tv show

>>86781642
>You can clearly see the moral dilemma they INTENDED to propose, but they failed to create a scenario that fit it.
You mean just like every single episode that has a similar setup going on?

>>86781207

Why does it look like Steven is even younger in the newer episodes in comparison to the first season?

>>86785182
>no gem is allowed to have any kind of handheld 'gun' weapon
That might have to do more with current ratings system allowing certain things in what is supposed to be an animated children's cartoon aimed at young children. Swords and bows and shit can pass as fantasy violence, but a gun would never get away with such a ranking no matter how they dress it.

>>86786412
The issue is we're not talking about humans here. Humans die a lot easier than gems do. If we had a weapon that was exactly as effective as any other equivalent modern weapon, but subdued the target instead, all while any cost of imprisoning and keeping the target alive in the long term is reduced to the extremely minimal (literally just a properly and guarded secured vault room would be the only effective price.) we would see a huge drop in human fatalities in all conflicts, save for truly sadistic ones. We don't capture people alive because it's risky, and most of the risk comes from the immensely decreased effectiveness of non-lethal weaponry.

>>86785864
oh that's true, but the arms/fingers of the limb enhancers were a whole utility belt of high-tech wizardry

i know they had Peridot get into art and stuff to show that she's not just forced to do her old 'function' for a new team and is free to pursue other interests, but now that we've established that, I hope she goes back to making tech stuff again at some point

>>86781630
You also forgot that said child is also just Rose in a new body and before you fucking fanfaggots try to get on my case about that remember that's how Bismuth has viewed Steven as the entire time

>>86781207
in retrospect i'd have to say bismuth because they could have saved the lives of their own and not ended up with 3 survivors to defend earth. Not to mention the whole 'dat will kill deem' mentality is naive because the cluster was formed from all the shatterd gems from the war so shattering is inevitable .Bismuth made a piston as a weapon and Rose went full retard on her. Homeworld could very well have made the same thing since forced fusion is ok for them

>>86786590
Art style change. His "teen" body in Steven's Birthday honestly looks like a slimmer version of his Season 1 body.

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>>86786489
>discussing morals of a show makes it SJW

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>>86786603
nah that's false

see also:vidalia's shotgun

>>86781927
>Basically, this is like if MLK took out Malcom X before he started to gain any traction.
This is nothing like that at all and you just wanted to make a "cool"-sounding analogy using famous black rights leaders to sound like you're both smart and knowledgeable.

>>86786842
lmao this. terrible comparison.

>>86781726
>Series finale is Greg impregnating all the homeworld gems

>>86781838
>>86782437
Gems aren't human beings, I don't know where the fuck you're getting the idea that poofing = smashing some guy's skull in. You don't even have to hit them in the head area to get rid of their physical body, you just have to introduce enough stress or physical trauma to it or use a tool made just for poofing. Fucking autists can't think in abstracts, I swear.

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>>86782457
>Humans dont kill for self defense, they kill because murder feels good fool.
And you have something that actually proves this yes?

>>86785903
>Fighting a rebellious war
>Fighting to win

pick one

>>86782572
>It's really being painted as a non-utopia.
Because we all see it through the lens of Steven and the rebel gems who believe it isn't utopia. It'd be similar as to how people in Nazi Germany thought things would be going well now that their country finally grew a pair and was going to get out of their crippled economy caused by WWI because they only see the propaganda and such, meanwhile the rest of the world is trying to stop Hitler's dictatorship and prevent him from fucking up other countries. You're only seeing things through a one-way mirror.

>>86782781
>Both poofing and shattering have the same effect
except poofing keeps the gem in tact while shattering destroys who and what the gem originally was

>>86782915
>Steven is always right, even when he is wrong.
I really fucking hated how he "solved" Ruby and Sapphire's arguing in Keystone Motel. He didn't provide any resolution or closure to them, he just threw a big enough episode to divert their attention away from the problem at hand, forcing them to makeup to calm Steven down while the issues between them were still present.

>>86787122
The argument quickly became "Ruby is angry only because she's angry." A hot-head pun and a one-note character. Giving her a distraction was the only way to get Ruby past that and on to other matters.
It happens in real life way way too often.

>>86787122

>forcing them to makeup to calm Steven down while the issues between them were still present.

is this really what you gathered from it? I mean it the dialogue was pretty clear as to what happened

>>86786040
We've never heard anything about the crystal gems taking prisoners, though. In the few flashbacks we've seen, they just ignore the gems after poofing their enemies.

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>>86786412
That's literally not how poofing works though. They aren't in prison, they're simply in stasis forever. There are no resources wasted or risks, just a gem gone. There is no reason for Steven to decide to go into the temple and shatter Jasper right now. He could, but it would just be unnecessarily cruel.

>>86787382
if the Slinker got into the temple, who's to say something/someone else couldn't get in and pop all the bubbles?

in fact I feel like that will probably happen sooner or later - maybe that'll be the catalyst for steven learning to heal them

>>86781245
To be honest the war is probably going to come back anyway. Yellow Diamond clearly has a hate boner for earth, but left it alone so she could get her super weapon. Eventually she's going to wonder where the fuck her cluster is and what the fuck happened to the Rubies she sent out. It might take a while considering how gems perceive time, but it's going to happen,

>>86787603
eh, it'll probably be soon now that the the homeworld trio and the rubies are all either successfully steven'd or out of commission

>>86787344
The only flashback we've seen from the war is Bismuth poofing a civilian in the middle of a war zone. Rose may have had a policy against attacking non-combatants and while 1 gem might not convince the rebels, it seems unlikely she stopped at just Lapis. If Bismuth kept keeping gems captive, she'd eventually get a reputation for capturing "combatants" where they claim to be civilians (provided the rebels question their prisoners, which seems very likely since their army is entirely fueled by enemy desertion and finding gems who are willing to work with the rebels is vital to their cause) and Bismuth happens to be the only one who saw them fighting. That said, seeing as Lapis isn't shattered, I'd even argue something or someone likely came up to interrupt her before she could do anything to Lapis's gem.

The CG's even have a prisoner room, though it's hard to say just how big or full it is, it seems likely being bubbled alone is not enough to keep a gem from being corrupted, seeing as the only survivors of the corruption attack were Rose, Pearl, Garnet, Amethyst (who hadn't emerged yet), Bismuth (who was likely hidden in a place like Lions mane, which doesn't seem to be actually on Earth), and Lapis (who I have no idea how she's not corrupted) so it's possible even the captives from the war are corrupted as well.

So the only flashback we have where a gem was poofed has a reasonable explanation as to why the poofed gem was ignored. Unless we've had another flashback I'm forgetting where an enemy is defeated and we immediately see the victor simply walking away, I don't think that's enough evidence for anything.

>>86785409
>blame the underpaid cashier because apples are too expensive
you sound like a swell guy

>>86781642

I have little cousins that love this shit show because it's cute and my hippie Californian uncle and aunt like it because it teaches them the power of "feelings" over violence.

Now when I watched it I honestly thought that Bismuth should of been in the right when she revealed the weapon because I thought it was a Diamond Destroyer. It's a little too big for the average gem but it would be just the right size to break Yellow Rubberneck Chicken if her size is evident of the average Diamond. Hell I always speculated that Diamonds had to be destroyed because they had magic mind control over most of the gems and it worked like King Vampire rules. Kill the King and the victims revert to normal (or at worse die). I knew that Steven was being given "Rose" colored glasses about the war and his mother's influence but Bismuth was still in the right, sans trying to use it on all gems. If anything Bismuth is an example of how Rose didn't know the meaning of free will and what she was fighting for.

Bismuth was made to make weapons and fight and surprisingly to Rose, Bismuth enjoyed her job and didn't mold herself into a Peaceful Giant that hated her job and really wanted to be a painter, writer, chef, etc like Rose wanted her to.

Plus the argument of bubbling comes to attrition and to an extent brainwashing, especially in later episodes with Jasper and the reveal that Rose shattered Pink Diamond, which my theory is what caused corruption because with the worse case King Vamp rules, chaos ensured and made the gems lose control of their bodies.

Bismuth became wrong at the time because we should just "wait" until each and every bubbled gem swings our way. She became right in the advent of Jasper being shown to have free will and it's that free will that wants revenge on Steven/CGs for the destruction of Pink Diamond, which in her mind was like seeing the idoled older sister kill their mother. Moral grey be damned it's all bull in the end because shitcrose.

>>86788641
>Hell I always speculated that Diamonds had to be destroyed because they had magic mind control over most of the gems and it worked like King Vampire rules
How would there even be Crystal Gems

>>86788641
>Explain exactly why it's good
>It's bad.

Nobody can willingly be this obtuse.

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>>86781207
Homeworld.
Always Homeworld

>>86781245
>>86781247
>>86781311
>>86781470
>>86781562
>>86781532
>>86781583
>>86781927
>>86782112
>>86782161
number of steven is right/bismuth is wrong
borderline or wishy washy posts were ignored

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>>86781207
Neither, Steven is foolish thinking being merciful in a war is viable, No amount of mercy is going to persuade someone who wants an entire planet destroyed when a better alternative would be trying to annex it for it's resources. The other diamonds might be able to be persuaded to formally end the war, but YD needs to die for it,the worst thing you can do is try to reason with someone who is unreasonable. If she is giving mercy and time she will disrupt any attempt at coexistence and peace and will die a martyr if given the chance to inspire any gem who shares her feelings about it in hopes they will succeed in their dream to destroy the earth. If the CGs ever try to liberate Home World they've got to show them all the major flaws of their society has without the Diamonds knowing otherwise they could easily end the war by uniting force alone.

Bismuth is even more wrong however, the idea that the flaws of a society die with their founders and exploiters is equally naive but has even sever consequences. Suppose all the diamonds and aristocrats die over night, the only result would be mass chaos followed by a power struggle over factions controlled by powerful gems that the mindless drones flock to splitting Home World and causing another war without ending the rebellion. The worst possible scenario would be the uniting force of the factions would be an invasion of earth to avenge the diamonds where humanity and gem drive each other to extinction.

Either way nothing is solved with Bismuth stuck in stasis instead of actually having a discussion on how the CGs move forward in the war.