what the fuck was this scene's purpose.

To get Timm's rocks off. That's it. Just so the old fart can get it up

>>86731836
To establish that Barbara was introducing too much emotion to her work as Batgirl and her relationship with Bruce was becoming too close on both ends. It was the turning point in her descent that led to nearly killing Paris, which was the point where she realized the mental dangers she was exposing herself to as Batgirl and decided to hang up the cape.

The Batgirl opening wasn't just to fill time, it was meant to mirror the Batman/Joker relationship and give context and validity to the idea of the line you can't come back from and the similarities between a vigilante and a criminal, which is so important to Killing Joke.

The prologue also served to create an emotional connection with Babs so her getting shot actually means something to the audience.

It's a movie, not a comic book. It has to be self-contained and as a result it can't simply rely on the viewer to already know and care about Babs.

>>86731865
This. Probably Azzarello too.

>>86731903
>>86731836
That people complain about this instead of the VA director ruining the line "Why aren't you laughing" shows me just how little /co/ knows or cares about quality in movies.

>>86731836
They had to put additional scenes with Barbara in there, so that people would actually care about her getting shot. And since one of the main motifs of the story is the tension that had arisen between characters an reloading it, they decided to put this motif into Barbara's plot as well. This scene perhaps wasn't really needed, but it could have been executed much worse than that, so I don't really care much about it.

>>86731836
awww yea Bat Girl sexy time!

>>86732011
i hate how everything has to stand on its own now. Nothing is allowed to say "hey the audience isn't stupid, they've seen and loved barbara gordon since the 60s"

>>86731922
But that seems to be one of the biggest recurring complaints though. You can complain about more than one thing.

>>86732096
>i hate how everything has to stand on its own now
You're an idiot. Films have to be self-contained.

You can get away without having origin stories but that's not the same as starting a film with a character we're only supposed to know and care about getting shot. That's not how fucking film works.

>>86732096
Well, but that doesn't really apply to everyone that went to see the movie. Sure, Killing Joke was ddefinitely directed to old school Batman fans, but it wasn't really marketed as such, and seeing how popular Batman and cape movies in general are right now, you can bet a lot of peple who don't really read comics went so see this.

>>86731903
Ah, I see.

So it failed on multiple fronts!

I get what you're saying, but I disagree with your assessment of it.

Primarily, it shows Barbara "Not being cut out" for this sort of thing where Batman is as they have different reactions to it. This mars the parallel because it shows her as lesser.

And the creation of an emotional connection . . . Well, it hinges on her vagina and on Bruce, which is also not exactly kosher these days.

It brings up the word "Hysteria" and the roots around that "Female Problem", which in a modern context, is pretty shitty.

And given that the story arc presented has her . . . well, acting pretty unlikable, the idea that it was there to get people to like her just falls flat.

But it does help me understand what they were trying, so thank you.

I just think they didn't succeed.

>Batgirl
>On top

Seems legit.

>>86732176
You type like a female.

>>86732223
He probably hangs a lot in tumblr.

We all know Batman wants Catwoman.

*image of Ray-Norr's "Fat Cat And The Bat"*

>>86732176
>Primarily, it shows Barbara "Not being cut out" for this sort of thing where Batman is as they have different reactions to it...which mars the parallel
Not really. She isn't forced out of being Batgirl or harassed or told she's not good enough, she gives up the cape herself because her motivations weren't right and she was putting herself at great (mental) risk.

>the emotional connection hinges on her vagina
No, it really doesn't. The emotional connections are many and varied for Barbara. She hates Paris far too much, she's grown too attached to Bruce despite not being an equal partner (and not in terms of sexual attraction), and her pride and confidence outstrips her capabilities. It has nothing to do with sex, and even the sex scene itself is less about attraction and love and more about power and agency.

>It brings up the word "Hysteria" and the roots around that "Female Problem"
What? Are you talking about throwaway lines from a villain or passerby? I don't recall that at all.

>And given that the story arc presented has her . . . well, acting pretty unlikable
I didn't find her unlikable at all; there's a portion of the story where she's frustrating and acting out but that's part of her arc

Honestly, you're looking for problems where there aren't any. The bullshit hysteria around "THE SEX SCENE!!!!" (she half takes off her top and sex is implied but not shown) has colored people's perceptions of the prologue in what seems to me an incredibly stupid way.

In fact, all the re-framing the prologue as misogynistic comes off to me as requiring pretty heavy misogyny and projection on the part of the viewer.

>>86731836
It was just sex :')

>>86731836
It fits Batgirl's character.

Also explains her super bitchiness once she's Oracle.

>introduces the characters
>humanizes batman and barbara

>>86733652

You can still have sex in a wheelchair.

>>86733855
how does this humanize them? It just makes them look like horny teenagers.

>>86734156
humans have sex drives

To establish the relevance of Babs in the minds of young males.

>>86734178
But isn't batman suppose to be somewhat the authority figure here? Going behind Gordon's back seems pretty damn scummy and out of character for him. He's suppose to rationalize and put his feelings behind him.

>>86731903
>The prologue also served to create an emotional connection with Babs so her getting shot actually means something to the audience.

Pretty sure it could have done that without Timm's weird May-December romance/BabsxBruce fetish and without making her look like an incompetent stalker, dude

>>86734245
>Timm's weird May-December romance/BabsxBruce fetish
It's a five-second scene that isn't romantic in any way. You're grasping at straws.
>making her look like an incompetent stalker
Where are you even coming up with this?

>>86734240
sure, but he's also been celibate for years and he's working around a young athletic female in a skin tight outfit

>>86734301
>>86734240
>>86734178
Batman is the sub in this scene; it is not about a romance between the two of them, it's about Barbara taking power in their relationship as part of her unstable emotional state.

>>86734322
How could batman of all people be a sub, especially to Barbara. I think the scene would of conveyed the same message of Barbara's emotional state if she pounced batman but he rejected. Showing that Batman is the authority figure here and not her. It's like pouncing one of your teachers. The fun fantasy would be that they share the same emotions and you bang but realistically, they wouldn't because even if they find you attractive, they have to be above that and know it's not right.

>>86734399
>How could batman of all people be a sub, especially to Barbara
Oh hey, you didn't watch the fucking movie

Go away

I think the most ridiculous thing about this scene is the babs BEATS bruce

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>>86734399
Oh yeah, because Batman has a fantastic track record when it comes to denying women who are pushing for sex that he really shouldn't fuck.

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>>86734414
I did you cheeky derp!

>>86734322
>the sub

that doesn't enter into the equation here faggot, he still succumbs to his lust, he remains horny throughout the 30 minute process of taking off the batsuit in order to fug barbara

ain't no sub shit here

>>86734445
ok touché, granted but still not towards Barbara. I don't know the way it was portrayed in the movie specifically was just odd.

Of course Batman is submissive.

He's totally repressed his sex drive and had a messed-up childhood. It's a blind spot in his armor.

Compared to him, Batgirl is normal.

If Batman ever ended up with Catwoman, you bet she'd be on top.

>>86734456
you've never had sex, have you?

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All Batman needs is the right woman, and he'll yield.

>>86734568
Of course he'll yield. Steel girders would yield under that kind of weight

>>86734593
>>86734568
fetish fuel can't melt steel beams

>>86734568
dude,

>>86734478
I think the only real difference is that I saw the movie the instant it was available and most people saw it after being exposed to complaints that focus on that particular scene. I really don't think that scene warrants the attention it gets much less the ire.

>>86734637
I saw it online and avoided early reviews. I agree it shouldn't have gotten the attention it did. People who didn't even watch the movie were complaining about sexism and all that stuff. This shoulda been a moment nerds like us complain about. Not some weird statement about women in film like some articles were saying.

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What a fucking cunt. She could have crippled that guy.

>>86734568

"Oh sure, hit on me when we're outside.....IN WINTER. I'm freezing in this suit!"

>>86732223
How does a female type?

>>86734615

"Dude,"

Where's the rest of the sentence?

>>86734822
I'm at a loss for words

>>86734845

Well at least admit Ray-Norr is talented artistically.

>>86734864
ehhh sure, better than some other artists ive seen

>>86734907

It's on model (which is hard to do for fat art); good use of lighting, texture, color; anatomy looks correct, there's an actual background, etc.

>>86731836
i mean them wanting to fuck one another isnt all that bad of an idea, its pretty grounded honestly given their relationship and the amount of time they spend around each other

what IS bullshit though is batman acting on it, out of character for him on multiple fronts, and i feel like the whole "im just gonna give into my whims here because lol why not" thing really fucking undercuts the emotional impact the ending is meant to have
that shit is meant to be fucking bold and underlined and youve already preempted it with softcore pornography, which is almost insulting

there was definitely a proper way to do them being romantically entangled and they did it the wrong way for the sake of being able to make them fuck which is just super disappointing

>>86735066
>Batman getting fucked by a strong womyn who overpowers him is not in his character
see >>86734445

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>>86735066
>panning up as someone takes off their shirt is softcore pornography
>romantically entangled
Oops, you're a dumbass

>>86735066
batman's been repressing his sexuality for years, of course that shit is going to buckle eventually

him subsequently becoming distant and shit makes perfect sense, barbara realizes she was lusting after a guy that is broken, she cannot have a relationship with him, she basically fucked a crazy person

>>86732223
And you type like a Ferengi.

>>86734301
>sure, but he's also been celibate for years
That is fucking HORSE SHIT. If they say that in the movie, that just makes it OFFICIAL horse shit, but horse shit nonetheless. Batman bones Catwoman off-and-on and has a neverending supply of gold-digging pussy to fuck and forget. Even Grant Morrison said "Of course he gets laid, because it'd be bad for The Mission if he didn't!"

>>86735091
She didn't just "overpower" him, though. She DRUGGED him. Also, someone was clearly, unequivocally meant to be in the wrong there - namely Talia.

>>86731836
procreation

>>86732223
How appropriate; you type like a douche!

>>86734808
I assume he means double-line spacing, which is how most professions prefer you to type when you're communicating, because it promotes clarity.

A lot of blue-collar workers have a problem with it, but by no means the majority.

>>86735153

It would explain why Batman generally goes easy on Catwoman, and why Maven was so willing to confide in him. She knows what Batman means to her boss.

>>86731836

To show that batgirl had daddy issues

>>86735189
He's fucked Talia on more than one occasion.

Also fucking Catwoman was literally his introduction in Nu52

Also he canonically fucked and impregnated Barbara Gordon in the comics lol

Any argument that this is out of Batman's character is not just irrelevant, it's wrong.

>>86731836
This ain't gonna die anytime soon

>>86732649
>Not really. She isn't forced out of being Batgirl or harassed or told she's not good enough, she gives up the cape herself because her motivations weren't right and she was putting herself at great (mental) risk.

Which is what the problem actually is. Many fans of Batman, including Brian Azarello, dislike the extended Bat-Family, feeling that the others are just not up to it. And this portrayal of Barbara fits right in with it. She's not good enough. She is compromised. She doesn't understand. Etc.

It's a very limiting and diminishing train of thought.
>>It brings up the word "Hysteria" and the roots around that "Female Problem"
>What? Are you talking about throwaway lines from a villain or passerby? I don't recall that at all.

I'm talking about the root of the word "Hyster" - "Of the Womb". Hysteria was a long time considered a 'female problem' where they were not reacting as men were to the same stimuli (men and women being different? Clearly, the women are wrong somehow! VIctorian era mentalities are kind of shit). The reasons she gives up the cape are . . .well, linked either to that, or can be linked to the word "Upity".

In other words, she's not fit for the position. She shouldn't be there. She is emotionally compromised. She should 'know her place'.

This is 1950s shit.

Women showing pride, or confidence without it being framed as a negative is kind of rare. That and America has a real problem with people being emotional at all to start with, so we have that to think on as well. So, them being shown as problem elements to her character arc are, in fact, a problem in and of themselves.

And she still doesn't play a role in the second half of the story just makes things worse.

All I'd want is for her to hand Bruce a vital clue AFTER she has been shot. She can't help physically, but let her help solve the main conflict. Because once she's shot, as far as I can remember, she's basically a non-entity till the end.

>>86735265
>Who the hell is Maven?
>googles
>It's some forgotten original character donut steel from BTAS
Yeaaaah... for future reference, BTAS is great and all, but it doesn't reflect the comics as accurately as some people would have you believe. The comics have been more up-front about Batman and Catwoman having an actual relationship. Hell, when the nu52 started there was a big fuss over a splash page of Catwoman riding the Bat-dick - not because people thought they WEREN'T fucking, but because it was tastelessly done.

>>86735342
>I can't tell one continuity from another

Thanks for playing.

>>86731865
Why is this thread still going if the first post answered the question?

>>86735342
>Also he canonically fucked and impregnated Barbara Gordon in the comics lol
Confirmed for not understanding the difference between main-line comics and shit made to tie-in into old shows for nostalgiabucks. The infamous "Batgirl is pregnant" shit is from some DCAU book, so it's arguably canon to that particular setting... the key word being arguable, because lots of DCAU tie-in books have added a lot of things to that continuity that were either not intended by the show-runners or later contradicted. And even if it WAS "canon" to Batman Beyond, that wouldn't mean much because it's probably Bruce Timm who gets the final say on that sort of stuff, and we all know he's the only creep into that kinda shit because it only turns up in works he's involved with. Ask Scott Snyder or Grant Morrison or Peter Tomasi or Gail Simone or Hope Larson or Denny O'Neil or Chuck Dixon or Doug Moench "Did Batman ever fuck Barbara?", I guarantee you they'd unanimously go "LOL No"

>>86735367
>She's not good enough. She is compromised. She doesn't understand. Etc.
Except that's bullshit that you're projecting onto it. The reason is not that she's "compromised" or doesn't understand, the reason is that she's not a single-minded psychopath. She lacks the single-minded focus (read: insanity) to push herself to the edge but refrain from becoming too invested or going too far. That's not a flaw, that's not a problem, and it certainly isn't because she's got a vagina.

>the root of the word...
Nigger I have an education I know what "female hysteria" is. It has absolutely nothing to do with this movie.

>The reasons she gives up the cape are...linked either to that or the word "upity"(SIC)
No, the reason she gives up the cape is explicitly because she doesn't want to be put in a position where she can't stop herself from killing someone. It's a major fucking theme in the movie and Killing Joke and it's mind-boggling that your dumb ass thinks it had anything to do with being a woman.

You're trying extremely hard to mash a square peg into a round hole.

>>86735434
>>86735556
>it's a different continuity!
We're talking about Batman's overall character and whether he would fuck someone he shouldn't that's aggressively pursuing him.

The answer is very clearly yes, as we've seen time and again with a multitude of both heroes and villains.

Kill yourselves, pedants.

>>86735265

Also Maven was totally making out with her boss.

She was entrusted with Catwoman's kitty, and knew she was Catwoman.

>>86735602
That's like saying "Batman would totally murder someone glibly by stuffing dynamite in their pants and shoving them down an open manhole because THAT HAPPENED IN BATMAN RETURNS SO IT'S CANON"

Different continuities exist for a reason - so that turbonerds like you won't ascribe a character's behavior to every single story they ever appeared in.

>>86734240
>Going behind Gordon's back seems pretty damn scummy and out of character for him.
He puts Barbara's life in danger every time he goes out with her to fight killers and rapists. Gordon knows none of this either. But getting his dick wet is crossing the line? Come on.

>>86736122
Batgirl's origins are always explicitly about her deciding to fight crime on her own, without Batman's approval. She'd be dressing up as Batgirl and fighting killers and rapists regardless. Sticking his dick in her though? That requires a bit of complicity.

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>>86735991
>That's like saying "Batman would totally murder someone glibly by stuffing dynamite in their pants and shoving them down an open manhole because THAT HAPPENED IN BATMAN RETURNS SO IT'S CANON"
Holy shit, no it isn't. Batman makes the same decision in EVERY continuity. He fucks someone he shouldn't in nearly every single iteration of the character.

Again: not only is your objection completely insignificant, it's fucking wrong.

>>86734808
>>86735243
Anon's use of elipses, combined with her passive-aggressive attitude lead me to believe she's a female.

>>86732176
>So it failed on multiple fronts!
Case in point.

>>86736201
no girls on the internet you fucking faggot

when someone says "HAY GUYZ FEMANON HERE" feel free to tits or gtfo. Until then keep your dickhole shut.

>>86736182
>Batgirl's origins are always explicitly about her deciding to fight crime on her own
And in what way was fucking Batman NOT a decision she made on her own? You would have us believe consensual sex is bad. What the hell.

>>86735564
I don't understand your analysis here, because it's contradictory. Because she can't hold herself back and her emotions get the better of her, she isn't insane? Usually, Insanity is defined more by a lack of control over ones actions than the other way around.

The point I was making that the reasoning behind her actions are stereotypically female as linking to the concept of Hysteria as a 'female disease of the mind'.

Which is why I mentioned it and why I explained it when you asked what I meant by it. And since your understanding of insanity is suspect at this point, it feels relevant.

"The woman can't control her emotions" is a American/repressive idea with sexist roots. It's that simple.

And even if you think that's bullshit, that is what many people do believe and the reason why people dislike her portrayal in the film.

>>86736556
Addendum: Yes, I am aware of sociopathy and how that works as a form of insanity in a broader sense, as well as other disorders which relate to the input and processing of information from the body/senses.

I believe you're saying "Barbara isn't a sociopath because she's having emotions, so it's not a negative!"

Yet, her emotions and lack of control over them are the problem she must address in the arc she is given and she chooses to change her situation to prevent herself from encountering the problems which she was facing. In other words, avoidance.

With a background thesis of "Batman can do what he can do because he is also crazy".

But to audience members that is deeply unsatisfying, since Batman and the like are power fantasies at their core. So it undermines that read of it.

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>>86736556
>I don't understand your analysis here, because it's contradictory. Because she can't hold herself back and her emotions get the better of her, she isn't insane? Usually, Insanity is defined more by a lack of control over ones actions than the other way around.
Are you familiar with Batman? Like, at all? He seem like a sane fellow to you? Maybe pick up detective comics, it's worth a read.

>The point I was making that the reasoning behind her actions are stereotypically female
How are her actions stereotypically female? How is you saying this not blatant misogyny on your part?

>I explained what I meant by it when you asked
No, I asked where in the movie you heard anyone talking about female hysteria, because you brought that shit up out of nowhere

>Women can't control their emotions
Is something you're fucking projecting you massive tool. I can see that all the major themes of both the movie and comic have flown right over your head, so let me make things unambiguous for you:

NO NORMAL PERSON CAN WALK THE LINE BATMAN WALKS - IT TAKES INSANITY TO FIGHT CRIME OUTSIDE THE LAW BUT REFRAIN FROM TAKING YOUR OWN JUSTICE - TAKING YOUR OWN JUSTICE PUSHES YOU OFF THE CLIFF AND THERE'S NO GOING BACK

Notice that the words "vagina" or "woman" are not in there. It has nothing to do with being hysterical or overly emotional; Barbara has the right amount of emotions for a sane and functioning human being. Batman is not a sane and functional human being.

Making Barbara's vagina an issue is what you are doing, not the film, and frankly it's pretty pathetic.

>>86732176
Post tits or gtfo.

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>>86736655
>Batman and the like are power fantasies at their core

>>86736733
Oh, right, this is text and not speech so your dick holster doesn't come into play.

Well, keep your dick-wranglers off the keyboard.

>>86735367
>Women showing pride, or confidence without it being framed as a negative is kind of rare. That and America has a real problem with people being emotional at all to start with,

You really didn't need to specify women there, the Puritan/Anglo foundation culture that started American culture takes a very dim view of pride as the root of most, if not all evils.

C.S. Lewis even wrote an essay on this and it's even one of the prime arguments against one of this year's presidential candidates so it remains a powerful cultural factor to this day.

Pride in self even loops back into why emotional expression is seen as a 'negative' because in the 60s-70s there was some religious synchronization with eastern Zen/Buddhist ideals in which emotions were seen as part of self-exultation and an impediment to the goal of nullifying the flaws of self in search of perfection in universal one-ness (Batman's nigh mystic martial arts training and selfless dedication to his 'role' in the universe as The Batman, rather than to his own goals as the person 'Bruce Wane' make this very relevant.)

>>86736708
>>86736655
>>86736556
>>86735564
What it comes down to is two questions:

1) Is Barbara overly emotional to an unreasonable degree given the context and thematic goals of the prologue
2) Is that state directly tied to her gender as opposed to being part of her character as an individual.

The answer to 1 is no, but even if you erroneously think it's yes then the answer to 2 is no.

If you want to project and re-interpret and mangle the film until it represents the misogyny you imagine is there be my guest, but all that's going to tell me is that you're either misogynistic yourself or overly obsessed with finding things with which to take offense.

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Batman has a history of being overpowered and playing possum for aggressive horny women.

When they push him around he'll resist a bit, but cave in.

>>86736249
It is if the person you're consenting to fuck is your best friend's daughter. What the hell, Batman.

>entire argument defending this shit hinges on "LOL BATMAN IS CRAZY XD"
I know this is patently obvious to everyone, but casual Batfags are worst Batfags.

>>86731903
>It's a movie, not a comic book. It has to be self-contained and as a result it can't simply rely on the viewer to already know and care about Babs.
Who the fuck watches DC animated movies other than die-hard fans?

Batgirl, Barbara Gordon, when she was introduced was closer in age to Batman than Robin (Dick Grayson) and one of her main reasons to becoming Batgirl was because she had a huge infatuation for Batman and wanted to kick ass.

The only reason people think Barbara is a little girl who has Bruce as her teacher/daddy is because of the cartoons that were done by... Bruce Timm and Paul Dini. It is because of the cartoons that Barbara and Dick started to be shipped together hard in the comics to the point where major parts of her backstory, including her being older than Dick, was retconned.

So the problem here is that people are letting their modern knowledge of comics and their ships influence their minds.

Also, Bruce Timm isn't merely a crazy shipper, he just likes to do forbidden romance. He paired Dick and Barbara as too teenager sweet-hearts all so later he could pair Barbara with her mentor Bruce and Dick with Bruce's old flame Catwoman. He likes to do the whole "Oh, God, this is so fucked up" thing.

>>86737294

You're the casual here, sir.

>>86737294
>I've never read the Killing Joke and totally missed that the big point was how similar Joker and Batman really are, how they're a step apart from one another
Yep, we're the casuals here

>>86737296

Die-hard fans should know that around the time Batman: The Killing Joke was released Barbara had a crush for Batman and not Nightwing. That she was actually older than Nightwing by 6 years. That she had retired her cowl and cape to become a congresswoman and was almost married to some other guy. That she was a grown woman and not a teenager girl.

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>>86737294
Are...are you trying to say Batman isn't crazy?

>>86736708
To counter the first question, I ask you "Are you familiar with the Batman family?"

They tend to be a bit better adjusted than old scowly-puss, but THOSE sorts of fan see that as a weakness.


>How are her actions stereotypically female? How is you saying this not blatant misogyny on your part?

Ya know what? Watch "The House on Haunted Hill" sometime and look at how the female leads are treated there. It's helpful they have a psychologist in the cast who is an expert on "Hysteria" and uses it to manipulate one of them.

That's the sort of shit I'm talking about. The idea that "You must be X in order to see X in a work" is one of the most blatant false flags out there.

>NO NORMAL PERSON CAN WALK THE LINE BATMAN WALKS - IT TAKES INSANITY TO FIGHT CRIME OUTSIDE THE LAW BUT REFRAIN FROM TAKING YOUR OWN JUSTICE - TAKING YOUR OWN JUSTICE PUSHES YOU OFF THE CLIFF AND THERE'S NO GOING BACK

So fuck Superman then? Fuck every other superhero ever? That's where that line of thinking leads, and is the pure providence of the worst sort of Batman-character-fags.

And that's why it's an unnaceptable thesis for . . . pretty much everyone who isn't a batfag.

>>86736918
I think the roots of that may go back even further, given certain linquistic quirks in English, as the roots of Ambition point out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU965S2lEMY

>>86736975
The thing is, with #2, it doesn't have to be. Correlation is enough for it to be seen.

You can have a miserly person be Jewish, but because of the history involved, it cannot be separated from his Jewishness no matter what is done with the narrative.

Or to use another example.

You can have shows where lots of characters die, but the moment a lesbian dies, people will be up in arms about it, simply because it is so overdone, there are so few alternatives, and the history involved with the idea.

>>86737508
I miss mature Barbara.

>>86737294
I'd say it's more "Batman NEEDS to be crazy, and anyone who is not can't do his job!"

Which is pretty fucking stupid.

The whole deal is that Batman can distance himself from his rogues and all the violence around him, while Batgirl couldn't. She got too emotionally involved with criminal who was obsessive with her and that lead her to lose her cool and almost kill the guy.

That was the whole point.
Batman can act like a sociopath and shield himself from the world, his enemies, his allies and so on. He can have the Joker groping his ass and killing people in his name, and still maintain his cool to resolve the case and arrest the Joker by the book.

Batgirl couldn't.
She couldn't shield herself from all the shit around her. She couldn't deal with a Joker-lite guy who tried to rile her up and hurt other women in her name. She couldn't deal with the violence. She got emotional and almost did a mistake.

The sex scene was also there to show that difference between the two.
Batgirl was too involved with the Batman and it only took a very emotional case to make her lose her composure and act on her feelings towards him.
Batman meanwhile usually can manage to separate himself from his allies, no matter if they're his adoptive sons or not. He can maintain his cool at all time.
The only time Batman lost his cool in regards to his allies and gave in to his urges was during this sex scene and that was a huge mistake.

>>86738259

Oh, forgot to add.

Since Batman usually can distance himself emotionally from everything, but ended up getting emotionally involved with Batgirl, this later left him vulnerable for the Joker attack on the Gordons, because Batman had this unresolved thing with Batgirl.

Thankfully, Jim stopped him from doing the same mistake Batgirl almost did with Paris.

>>86731922
I didn't have much problem with the "Why aren't you laughing". My biggest gripe was them cutting part of the speech but not the voice direction.

A lot of people saw that fan video and wanted it to be BTAS smug Joker speaking, but it made more sense it'd be a more tired and annoyed Joker asking why Batman wasn't laughing.

Of course this is just my opinion.

>>86737887
>that thesis is too Batman-related!
herp-a-derp

>>86738021
Yes, it's enough for it to be seen, but not enough for it to be a valid criticism. What you're talking about is the definition of projection.

>>86738072
>which is pretty stupid
It's a constant theme in just about every interpretation of the character

>>86737887
>So fuck Superman then? Fuck every other superhero ever? That's where that line of thinking leads, and is the pure providence of the worst sort of Batman-character-fags.

Batman is literally insane though, he's a man who dresses up as a bat to scare criminals, breaks their bodies, locks mutants in below-average prisons, and then does it again when they're out; he wont kill them because of his morality and belief they'll learn their lesson. Batman is a semi-realistic approach at a scenario that exists in a fantasy world. A world that can be re-written and retconned.

In reality, anyone who had Batman's line of work would eventually impart his own justice on them instead of having them arrested. There is no way a normal person is able to stomach rapists, murderers, drug and sex slave traffickers, etc. forever. Especially knowing that even if you leave them in a full body cast for weeks, they'll usually get out of prison real quick due to corruption and go back to doing the same thing. Sure, you can beat them till they become literal retards, but that already crossed the line in the eyes of the law and the 'damage and arrest' thing that Bats goes for.
Here's a little news flash: Reality can't be re-written or retconned.

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>>86738416
I never saw that line as smug nor annoyed/tired

It always seemed to me a genuine and morose question. A break in the insanity as Joker laments the fact that the man in front of him went through the same sort of event he did but doesn't share his worldview. He genuinely doesn't understand why Batman isn't laughing at the painful absurdity of life.

The face here is that of someone who is sad and confused

>>86738507
I can see that, yes. But either way that face also doesn't fit the tone fan voice video that everyone praises and thinks it's better.

Basically, everyone wanted BTAS Joker in the Killing Joker rather than the actual Joker The Killing Joke actually has.

>>86738259
>A woman
>Being too emotional

And that's not playing into stereotypes, how, exactly?

>>86738371
That's the definition of women in refrigerators, you know. So, it took one of the core probems of the original work . . . and doubled down on it.

>>86738471
>Yes, it's enough for it to be seen, but not enough for it to be a valid criticism. What you're talking about is the definition of projection.

Well, glad to know you have no idea how stereotyping works. Given the /pol/ invasion, that seems likely.

>>86738484
>realistic batman

Honestly? I find Batman to be the most unrealistic of all the costumed characters. Mostly because I've done some research into combat-sports related injuries.

>>86738923
>Well, glad to know you have no idea how stereotyping works
So you're actually arguing that no film can portray anything that might be construed as a stereotype or its problematic, regardless of the context?

Luke Cage is problematic because it has black on black violence

Breaking Bad is problematic because Skyler reacts emotionally sometimes and bad things happen because of it

Wolf of Wall street is problematic because I'm pretty sure at one scene a banker in the background is wearing a yarmulke

Your criterion as presented to me so far are too wide to be taken seriously.

>>86737199

>No undersuit under batsuit
>Catwoman can take off batbelt
>Batsuit isn't armored
>Catwoman is wearing lingerie under latex suit
>Batman kissing anyone

What is this faggotry

>>86738923
>Honestly? I find Batman to be the most unrealistic of all the costumed characters. Mostly because I've done some research into combat-sports related injuries.
That's what I meant by 'semi-realistic'.
But that wasn't the point of the argument, in fact, its was an improper description on my part that is based on an extremely compressed part of his character on my part.

My argument was that the analysis for The Killing Joke:
>NO NORMAL PERSON CAN WALK THE LINE BATMAN WALKS - IT TAKES INSANITY TO FIGHT CRIME OUTSIDE THE LAW BUT REFRAIN FROM TAKING YOUR OWN JUSTICE - TAKING YOUR OWN JUSTICE PUSHES YOU OFF THE CLIFF AND THERE'S NO GOING BACK
Was pushed onto the idea that every single Batman story is the same as well as adding onto the idea that because of TKJ's analysis, every other superhero story is irrelevant:
>So fuck Superman then? Fuck every other superhero ever?
>That's where that line of thinking leads, and is the pure providence of the worst sort of Batman-character-fags.
>And that's why it's an unnaceptable thesis for . . . pretty much everyone who isn't a batfag.

You're on the idea that TKJ is meant to be the one and only Batman story. The only kind of story that Batman can have. It's not, btw. It's a story meant to showcase that Bats and Joker are, in a way, like Two-Face's coin in the eyes of the reader: one side damaged the other pristine. But still the same coin.

However, I'm pretty sure you're just dropping bait everywhere since you're taking small bits and acting as if that were the goddamn argument.

>>86739285
>No undersuit under batsuit
>Catwoman can take off batbelt
>Batsuit isn't armored
It was a hot night in Gotham. The kind of night you have to sleep on the floor because the matress makes the side your sleeping on sweat real bad. The belt is easy to remove so Bruce can air out his balls.

>Catwoman is wearing lingerie under latex suit
Why wouldn't she?

>Batman kissing anyone
I'll give you this one.

>>86739099
Goalpost moving and strawmen.

People who have seen the film see the plotline done with Babs as sexist. You do not, but that's okay. I was hoping to try and explain why they do, but you seem more interested in having a 'right' opinion, when that runs counter to how opinions work.

IMO. of course.

>>86731836
To establish that Bruce is flawed and not the sanest guy.

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>>86731836
>"The thing about this is that it's controversial, so we added more controversy," explained Azzarello.

Quote and pic related in addition to Timm's hard on for young women who want to bang an older man who has some degree of power over her and said older man not wanting to bang her, still does it though, and then regrets it.

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>>86739420
While I could make a joke about police violence at this moment, I think just mentioning the possibility is enough.

I think you're misunderstanding my point for the same reason I am making the argument in the first place. To wit: how does Barbara fit into all of this?

That dichotomy and symbiotic madness is all well and good, but it further pushes Barbara aside and belittles her involvement. You argue that she is sane for that, but the other read can be that she is not good enough to do it.

It also reminds of this pic, but I understand the story its trying to tell. The problem is, and always have been, how Barbara is treated by that story.

The initial problem was, after all, her use as a simple motivating tool to get Batman and Jim Gordon to suffer. Aside from making the audience care about her, does she end up as more or less of a prop for the men because of the new plotline.

Some say yes, some say no, I lean on the 'no' side.

>>86739693
>complains of moving goalposts
>proceeds to move them

You're free to see whatever you want and in doing so strip any meaning from the descriptors you're using. I'll continue to point out why what you're saying is a poor interpretation of the material for which it cannot be held accountable.

>>86739945
>You argue that she is sane for that, but the other read can be that she is not good enough to do it.
Which is a very very poor reading that misses quite a bit of content to focus like a laser on something the person wants to find. Pariedolia doesn't just apply to physical patterns.

>Aside from making the audience care about her, does she end up as more or less of a prop for the men because of the new plotline
I would argue that yes, in the Killing Joke Barbara acts as a prop for other characters. She gets shot to start the plot and spends the rest of it in the hospital. I see no problem with this, as it's one story and using a character - male or female - as a prop or motivational tool is an extremely common and useful story trope. I also see no problem with Pops getting killed at the end of the first episode of Luke Cage. It's a very popular form of call to action.

>>86739945
>I think you're misunderstanding my point for the same reason I am making the argument in the first place. To wit: how does Barbara fit into all of this?
>That dichotomy and symbiotic madness is all well and good, but it further pushes Barbara aside and belittles her involvement. You argue that she is sane for that, but the other read can be that she is not good enough to do it.
I'm not them, btw. My entire argument started with the dismissal of the TKJ analysis.

>>86739974
Anon, you literally replaced stereotyping with "problematic".

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>>86740311
go to >>86739099 and replace all instances of "problematic" with any negative word, or stereotyping if you want to make that word implicitly negative

It's still the same argument and you're still casting far too wide a net to be taken seriously.

If you're implying that you didn't mean stereotyping as implicitly negative then what's the issue? Why bring it up at all?

>>86740108
I thought Pareidolia was limited to facial/human figure recognition and overactive pattern recognition was a different thing entirely (IE: Conspiracy theories)? Weird. Well, learn something new everyday! Thanks for that.

Though I don't agree that this is such a case, and thus I have to ask, do you agree with the thesis presented by the "Women in Refrigerators" concept?

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>>86732083
/thread

>>86740463
"Problematic" is an extraordinarily generic word while stereotyping is a specific and thus has a more limited function. Ergo, it's altering the nature of the comments.

>>86740479
>do you agree with the thesis presented by the "Women in Refrigerators" concept?
That depends on what you believe the thesis to be.

The creator of the list herself said: "If you demolish most of the characters girls like, then girls won't read comics. That's it!"

To me that's pretty unobjectionable, but I don't see what it has to do with whether the TJK prologue is in some way misogynistic.

>>86740631
the alteration caused by the change in diction has no impact on the argument being made.

>>86740687
I generally took the initial list as an indictment of stories where Character A is wronged so Character B avenges them, and it happens to women more often than to men Which becomes (more) misogynistic when the woman in question is often described as belonging to the avenging party.

Being Jim's daughter is one way it is done in the original TKJ, the film version extends this to Batman himself through their sexual relationship.

If you buy into that read of the list, of course, which I fully admit, to being possibly off.

But I'll also admit I've seen it done well once (with Apollo and Midnigther).

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>>86740108
>>86740479
Apophenia

>>86740712
No. They do. Words have meaning. And that meaning is important. To ignore that is to forfeit not just this argument, but arguing altogether.

>>86740897
Thank you, Kindly anon.

>>86737418
>one of her main reasons to becoming Batgirl was because she had a huge infatuation for Batman and wanted to kick ass.
That's false. The original Batwoman was infatuated with Batman. Barbara Gordon as Batgirl was created to directly contradict that stereotype

>>86737508
So why did Timm de-age her to be an incompetent teenage girl in the film?

>>86740876
If a woman gets hurt or killed to spur a man to action in a specific instance, no, I don't think that's inherently misogynistic.

If in the process the character says "oh no, please mister big strong man! I'm just a pathetic woman! Oh where oh where is my big strong man who I'm helpless without because of my bleeding vagina!" then that's misogynistic.

The devil's always in the details. Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Third saying that reiterates my point.

>>86741028
>babs in TKJ prologue
>incompetent
lol wat

she literally beats batman

>>86732011
Nah, it was executed as badly as possible. Her entire character was defined around her vagina. She flirts with a creepy mobster who tries to rape her. She forces herself onto Batman. She gets raped by the Joker. Honestly, I'm shocked that Jim Gordon didn't have a turn with her.

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>>86741096
>She flirts with a creepy mobster who tries to rape her
>She gets raped by the Joker

>>86733855
what character

>>86734299
>It's a five-second scene that isn't romantic
Barbara's entire prologue character arc was derailed to justify the inclusion of this scene.

>>86741106
did you not watch the film or something?

>>86741053
Well, thank goodness I included an example of when I thought it worked out well!

But I don't think you can ignore cultural context so readily and still keep things clear. At least acknowledging what is happening around a work at that time and what similar things were being produced at that time would enhance a read of any story.

>>86741073
she nearly gets herself killed and raped going after a low-rent mobster

she doesn't "beat" batman, he was barely taking her seriously

>>86731836
>It's another "neckbeards still attempt to defend shitty fap material" episode

Dose any one whish that the killing jome would have been just mote darker more idk i felt like it was missing something

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>>86731903
Based anon

I just wanted to have Babs help with the investigation of what happened to her Father after she was shot.

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>>86741073
no. she raped him and no one bats an eye about it.

>>86731903
>To establish that Barbara was introducing too much emotion to her work as Batgirl and her relationship with Bruce was becoming too close on both ends. It was the turning point in her descent that led to nearly killing Paris, which was the point where she realized the mental dangers she was exposing herself to as Batgirl and decided to hang up the cape.
>The Batgirl opening wasn't just to fill time, it was meant to mirror the Batman/Joker relationship and give context and validity to the idea of the line you can't come back from and the similarities between a vigilante and a criminal, which is so important to Killing Joke.

That sounds like a nice premise. Too bad the prologue barely touched upon this, and instead focused on "oh mah gawd, and i thought the gay dating scene was harsh,"

>The prologue also served to create an emotional connection with Babs so her getting shot actually means something to the audience.
>It's a movie, not a comic book. It has to be self-contained and as a result it can't simply rely on the viewer to already know and care about Babs.

All it did was give audiences the impression that comic book nerds are creepers who like watching cartoon sex. A well constructed story needs to cut out excess in order to fine-tune its story. Detracting from Barbara's character arc by having her obsess over her crush was retarded storytelling. She would be a much more relatable and empathetic character if the film bothered to hone in on her motivations as Batgirl, instead of a teenaged stalker with a crush.

>>86737199
this is worse than batgirl-batman sex scene

>>86731836
IT WAS JUST SEX FOR GOD'S SAKE

>>86731836
To fill time and further Bruce's shipping agenda

>>86741772
Exactly! What's the big deal??

>>86741006

>Barbara Gordon as Batgirl was created to directly contradict that stereotype

You're wrong. Barbara Gordon was created by the 60's show to simplify the whole Batwoman/Bat-Girl thing and there were plans in later season for her to hook up with Batman. The show was cancelled before it could happen.

In the comics thought she was in fact infatuated with Batman and remained so until she found another man.

>>86743135
>In the comics
Only in the Batman adventures or is there something else? i wanna know.

>>86734568

TFW you will never encounter a supervillainess of abundant size in black rubber.

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>>86731836
This movie kinda sucked. Anime style, voice acting terrible, story delivery was less than compelling. Pretty much everything lackluster.

Mark Hamill knocked it out of the fucking park though. The scene where he spined batgirl and immediately started talking shit was fucking hilarious.
(too bad everyone else in the theatre thought I was fucking deranged for laughing my ass off at that scene)

>>86738416

This fan video?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC16orUje4M

>>86747577
Yes. You can tell that guy is channeling more of the BTAS Joker.

>>86731903
Bruce Timm get back to work

>>86746856
>theater
Where the hell were you that showed this on a big screen? I just assumed it was a straight to DVD film.
Also I didn't mind the movie nearly as much as most people seem to. It's obviously not perfect but I didn't think it was the literal worst.

>>86731836
tim's fantasy really, he probably masturbated to it while alone in his home. watching this.

>>86734301
Then what's Robin for?

>>86738923
>And that's not playing into stereotypes, how, exactly?

Not this Anon, but someone answer the question.

You see anon, this is a very important scene.

It's the scene that lets the director ridicule you in front of an audience if you question him about it. That way people are afraid to ridicule it for fear of looking as dumb as "that guy".

>>86731836
Something for Timm to masturbate to. You see, in DCAU, Batman and Batgirl became a couple and fucked after Robin left but never got around to having them do each other, so here we have them doing it.

>>86731922
This is your main complain? Not the afeter effects tier animation?

>>86731836

All of Barbera's shit was pointless. This was just the cherry on top. I'll never understand why people apparently think the killing joke is a Barbera Gordon story. She's at best a prop in it.

>>86731836
CARTOONS ARE REAL FUCKING ASSHOLES

>>86731836
Id say because its hot, but considering we couldnt see barbras tits in a FUCKING R RATED FILM, then i dont know.

>>86731922
I've seen at least 3 separate threads that were just "Why aren't you laughing? >:C" after this movie came out. The voice direction has been panned fairly hard here.

>>86735128
>batman's been repressing his sexuality for years, of course that shit is going to buckle eventually
Isn't Batman one of biggest heroes in terms of romantic partners they've had? There's nothing repressed about him.

>>86738587
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC16orUje4M
You're talking about this one? Because that scene definitely fits the tone of the line in the comics.

>>86751234
we didn't even hear her moan wtf. prolly it's rated r because bats touched bab's booty.

>>86735243

There's no reason to hit enter twice after every fucking sentence.

>>86731903
The issue with that is it felt completely inconsequential to the rest of the story. Barbara's role in the story was to be a catalyst, not a focus. The focus was placed directly on Joker, Batman, and Gordon. The bad crazy, the good crazy, and the sane middle. In terms of the story, giving her focus makes zero sense and takes away the entire point.

>>86739285

>No undersuit under batsuit
Batman having an undersuit is not a constant thing. Also she could just be lifting that up as well.

>Catwoman can take off batbelt
It's not the first time she's done it, she's taken it right off of him multiple times before

>Batsuit isn't armored
It is, but it's not resistant to movement.

>Catwoman is wearing lingerie under latex suit
She doesn't want to chafe her nipples.

>Batman kissing anyone
He's kissed dozens of women. And Catwoman particularly many times.

The sex scene was bad but nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be. The worst thing about it was Winick's characterization of both Bruce and Selina and how pointless and sudden the scene was. It was just nasty, dirty sex between two people in costumes who don't even take their masks off. Compare it to their sex scene in Brubaker's run and it just seems to be in embarrassingly poor taste.

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>>86743135
>In the comics thought she was in fact infatuated with Batman and remained so until she found another man.

Nope Timm, you're wrong