Why are action scenes so much better in manga than in western comics?

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>>86702378

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>>86702390

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>>86702399

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Because manga is cheaper and faster produced. A typical Shounen Jump manga, like the one you posted, gets 16-20 pages a week.

Comic artists have a limited amount of time and space, fights can't afford to take up that much. A DBZ endurance fight in a cape comic could take a whole year.

This leads to mostly impact panels and posing

Honestly this shit should be obvious I don't know why you're asking.

>>86702390
>GLOM
why does he say this? It has a speech bubble but seems like a sound effect. also a sound effect for every panel is pretty obnoxious.

>>86702378
Why do you keep making
>Why is Japan better than the west at x?
Threads?

>>86702378
The action/motion lines, along with the squash and stretch of each character as they perform an action is what separates manga from Western comics. Comics will often focus so much on character anatomy and detail, that the characters simply look like they're posing for each panel. They appear static and facial expressions are often neglected completely. Characters can only emote a few degrees of anger and little else.

>>86702448
I dunno. Fraction/Aja Hawkeye definitely had some good action scenes, so it's either because most western comic book writers don't know how to into action scenes well or Fraction/Aja are just exceptions.

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>>86702531
That is true. My answer was more about explaining the why, not the how.

This guy has some better detail on it >>86702496

Most western comic artists have no reason to practice dynamic movement and fighting, so even if they tried to do a good scene they probably couldnt

>>86702378
flibbety floo here's your (you)

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>>86702378
If you are gonna post a mango action scene, post something that isn't starter pack tier like DBZ.

>>86702623
>implying Dragonball doesn't have the best action in all of manga

literally name a manga that has better action than Dragon ball.

>>86702623
I think he was making the point that even starter manga have better action scenes.

>>86702632
Vagabond

>>86702632
Idolm@ster

>>86702632
Berserk

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>>86702632
Sup.

>>86702661
Berserk definitely doesn't have better action. And I love Berserk and think it's better than DB overall, but the wyald fight dragged like Molasses. I mean it definitely has good action, but it isn't cause it has better choreography, but cause of how well written the fight is. (like Rosine vs Guts).

>>86702665
Murata is good but no.

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>>86702623

Some western artists do awesome fights.
Frank Miller
Dave Sim
Geoff Darrow
David Aja
Frank Quietly
Neal Adams

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>>86702632
Dorohedoro

>>86702692
But Berserk does have better action. One fight being worse in terms of pacing means nothing.
Toriyama relies heavily on those huge "pops" of white space rather than actually drawing impact, he solely draws the result of the impact.
Dragon Ball has absolutely nothing that compares to the hundred man fight, I can't think of an action comic that does period. Or to the Eclipse, which isn't as good as the 100 man fight but still.

>>86702582
>Most western comic artists have no reason to practice dynamic movement and fighting, so even if they tried to do a good scene they probably couldnt

That's a shame, to be honest. You'd think that the nation that pioneered animation and dynamic motion and squash and stretch as >>86702496 pointed out would be able to translate it into their own sequential art product, especially in a genre that is about strongmen running around in their underpants clobbering bad guys to enforce justice.

>>86702937
Well, I don't think it will happen any time soon. The sheer workload mangaka deal with would be considered utterly unreasonable to western artists.

>>86702948
Just a question, though, how many pages are usual for a weekly comic here in the States? I'm aware that, in the east, weeklies are around 16 to 20 pages, and for monthlies, they could go up to 40 pages.

>>86702378
>>86702390
>>86702399
>>86702405

I'd be so fucked off If I payed for a book and got 4 pages in a row with so little content

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>>86702948
This is really the thing. Working that many hours on something every single day really tends to force improvement, even if just through sheer repitition.

>>86702997
I see a fight developing at a perfect pacing. Maybe not enough WORDS WORDS WORDS for ya, Bendis?

>>86703018

There's just no words anon. I get that the screaming manlet is angry though but it's not worth my money

>>86702997
How is good fight art not content?

>>86702984
The big two don't really have any weeklies. DC does a few bi-weekly comics. Those have 20 pages each.

Big two comics are also coloured, where manga is in black and white.

>>86702997
Keep in mind the weekly Shounen Jump comes with typically 7 chapters from various series, for about $2.50 - $3 USD depending on exchange rates

So you get about 6 times the amount of raw pages.

>>86702997
If this is the attitude of the normal comicbook reader, then that explains why Bendis became so big. I guess cramming in massive amounts of dialogues and street quips makes for a good comic.

>>86703027
It's a visual medium. What's the issue?

>>86703057

4 pages for a few movements. Are the page sizes just really small? I don't see why this can't be on two pages

>>86703011
>three hours of free time a week

Lazy bum.

>>86702448
They're two different schools, really. Western action sequences will give you the highlights of the battle, Japanese ones give you every last moment.

This also affects things like the staging of a fight. Superhero teams almost always fight together, so you get a big splash page of all the heroes and villains battling in one location that's meant to represent most of the fight.

On the other hand, the Z-Fighters are hardly ever shown fighting at the same time. Each fight is usually one on one and they happen one after another. You'll never see the Justice League take on bad guys that way.

>>86702818
Reading through this now. Honestly the fights are good but sometimes with the high detail artwork panels can get cluttered and it becomes hard to know how one panel translates to the next

scripts aren't a great medium for them and aren't satisfying to write

in manga the artist and writer are usually the same person

>>86703143
This is why the Marvel method is superior as long as you don't make it the WORDS WORDS WORDS bullshit Lee did

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>>86703120
The only shonen I know of that has done the western-style team battles is One Piece. Lately in arcs like Dressrosa they have all the climatic battles between the Strawhats and the villain crews happening in one place at the same time.

But even then, the writing tends to split off and focus on one skirmish at a time, even though it's understood that everything is happening at once.

>>86703165
>the Marvel method is superior
>unless you use it like Lee, the guy who invented the Marvel Method and is responsible for its popularity

Okay.

>>86703182

Is One Piece worth getting into? From what I know it's at 800+ issues but only halfway through. I only saw a few episodes of the manga up to the point whee his swordsman got fucked up by some Spanish pirate

>>86703182
The side effect of that, though, is that Luffy's fights become intolerably long.

Since he starts fighting the big bad at the same time as everyone else, but the Laws of Plot demand that he be the last one to finish, that means he has to spend like 20 episodes just trading blows with the villain without anything important happening, until all the other fights are over.

I wish Oda would use the old "the strongest good guy is delayed/incapacitated until the last possible moment" trick that always worked with Goku on Dragon Ball.

"Sorry villain, but Goku's dead/in a healing bath/has heart disease/dead again. Why don't you beat up on Krillin until he gets better."

>>86703195
Lee was a terrible scripter, fuck off. He didn't invent the method out of artistry he invented it out of corporate necessity.

>>86703219
If you like shounen, it's pretty great. Retains the same adventure feeling it had at the start.

>>86703219
The halfway point was around chapter 600 (or at least that's what the creator said at the time.)

But yeah, One Piece is really fun and actually manages to maintain consistent quality once it hits its stride (which is not too long after the point you're at.) It's worth reading, just don't feel like you have to marathon it or anything or you'll burn out. I usually read through one saga then take a break.

>>86703219

>saw a few episodes of the manga

>>86703235
Sorry, Stan, I know you're universally considered one of the most important comic book writers who ever lived, but Contrarian Internet Kid says you're a hack. Guess you'll have to resign now, no more movie cameos for you.

>>86703253

Sorry, Anime. It's cause I was thinking about the manga

>>86703250
>>86703249

Thanks. I'll give it a read the "Adventure feeling" is why I prefer Dragonball to Z so that's good to hear

>>86703065
>4 pages for a few movements
What the Hell? Are we reading the same damn page? A "few movements"? You're not talking about a haymaker in one pag

Page 1
>Vegeta sucker punches Recoome, initiating the actions
>As soon as Recoome goes for lift-off, the motion and urgency is shown; Vegeta zooms right past to catch him for the follow-up blow on the next panel

Page 2
>Hammer blow downwards, a completely different location to where they were in Page 1.
>Panel to show double knee drop
>Panel to show Vegeta's motion - the aura line - for the foot grab

Page 3
>The throw
>The effect of the throw to emphasize to the viewer Vegeta threw him HARD.
>Vegeta supercharges his attack, the veins are there to convey anger and concentration, the electricity in his hands a testament to his strength

Page 4
>Panel to show just how big a shot Vegeta throws. Emphasis on strength.

>>86703259
important =/= good
His ideas were excellent but he describes the actions that kirby and ditko already drew in almost every panel, he gets better as the comics go along, but some of those first 50 or so issues of FF and X-Men are fucking brutal.
I don't really believe you've read them if you're going to tell me Lee is a world class scripter

>>86703226

That's also because the One Piece anime is padded out as hell. The fights are shorter in the manga.

Moon Knight V5 had some great action scenes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbMj9f0mcBA

>>86702378
D E C O M P R E S S I O N
Plus are bigger focus on the action, mostly when it comes to the use of powers and the reaction the fighter have to it. In most western comics, most attacks are either a blast or if they are physical, they feel to posed.

>>86703378
Those are pretty cool.

>>86702378
Sex and nude scenes are also so much better in manga than in western comics

>>86702818
no

>>86702665
yes

>>86705386
Shit taste.

>>86702378
That's not Toriyama.

>>86702378
More important question: why are porn scenes so much worse in doujins?

>>86702632
Akira
Domu
FMA
Lone Wolf & Cub

Another thing to keep in mind is with manga there are *alot* of uncredited assistants helping the manga artist complete weekly chapters. Oda, the One piece guy got his start as an assistant to the Ruroni Kenshin guy and he's mentioned his own assistants a lot; he has at least three or four of them. The only artist I can think of offhand who aldoesnt use assistants is Togashi of Hunter X Hunter fame and he had to take a few hiatuses and ultimately retired due to Healy complications.

Whereas to my knowledge, the penciler in a western comic does all the work himself before giving it over to an inked and or a colorist.

Bottom line is that it's a whole different process that can allow for different end results.

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>>86702378
Manga sequences focuse on impact, speed, choreography. Comics focus on dialogue and how many colorful characters they can fit on one panel

>>86703226
>watching One Piece
Found your mistake.

>>86706228
Miura didn't have assistants for most of Berserk's publication. even now, he only has one assuming my info isn't outdated.

>>86702997
you do realize that you get 200 manga pages for the same amount as you would pay for a 40 page comic, right?

>>86703250
Actually I think we hit half way in diff arc. At least that's what I think was said in interviews.

>>86702665
Murata is the one manga-ka I've seen that has a legitimate claim to Toriyama's throne, but his art can get a bit muddled at times, while with Toriyama it was always perfectly clear what was going on. And Murata's battles can be a bit too decompressed, devoting multiple pages to a single point of impact, while Toriyama's pages always get to the point.

When it comes to fight choreography, Toriyama really is the best there was, and the best there ever will be.

Why do these threads always get started with toonami-core shit like dragon ball?

>>86702496
I always envied the Japanese and they ability to grasp action well. From detailed stuff like Gantz and Berserk, to the simple stuff like HxH, most of them got that little something that's lacking in western comics.

>>86702632
AKIRA's action scenes flow like fucking butter, it's magic.

Started randomly reading some Manga for the first time since middle school over the weekend, and this was my main take away. The really beat the pants off us in action.

I've always hated how in cape comics everyone just looks like they're posing in midair during action scenes, it's so corny

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>>86708670

>>86702632
Kinnikuman
Devilman
Ushio to Tora

Pretty much what >>86702496 said. The deemphasis on keeping proper anatomy and using squash/stretch allows for some great displays of action.

>>86702623
I would post an image from Fist of the North Star, but it's hard to find a page of pure action in google that's of good image quality.

>>86702378
Action scenes aren't necessarily better on either side of the Pacific ocean, but preferred styles can give people a bias. You can create the idea of "movement" on static pages in a bunch of different ways. Toriyama is using multiple panels with speed lines and dynamic angles to show how strong and fast Vegeta is. A good representation of western style would be something like Usagi Yojimbo. There's one page in the most recent omnibus that has a grid of four panels that are all at the same view point. The first panel is an enemy attempting to attack Usagi from behind. The second panel is Usagi dodging the attack and the enemies sword gets embedded into a tree trunk. The third panel is the guy struggling to pull his sword free while Usagi turns around. The fourth panel is Usagi finishing his attack. The enemy is is dropping his sword and falling to the ground and the tree has been sliced in half. He is out classing his opponent just as hard as Vegeta is in far less time. Toriyama' s fight is less efficient for the amount of resources it uses, but it is still a correct way to show action. It still looks cool. It's not better or worse, just different.

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>>86709100

Try this sequence

1/3

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>>86709182
2/3

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>>86709193
3/3

>>86703011
How do they fucking do it? Are they all on meth or is it just pure discipline?

>>86703219
It's one of the best action manga out there, and has been the best-selling manga ever for a while now.

It's long, but it's also very good. If you tackle it in chunks and don't try to speed through it you should enjoy it a great deal.

>>86709243

They have assistants to do things like fill in tiny details on the pages and such.

And in the case of Fist of the North Star above, one drew while the other wrote, they were a duo.

>>86708354
Because /co/ doesnt watch anything else or read

>>86709243
Seeing this makes me almost sympathize with Togashi and want him to just take as long as he wants f for HxH.

>>86703011
That's what i called, being a fucking slave.

/co/ gets BTFO
Again.

>>86702487
It's probably different people who make all these threads, not that it makes it all any less repetitive.

>>86709301

You try writing 22 pages of story and drawing it, and making it professional enough to publish, every goddamn week.

>>86709243
Japanese work ethic, discipline, and a love of the medium. Although mangaka tend to die a bit earlier than normal.

>>86709182
>>86709193
>>86709204
I couldn't sworn the art was way more detailed in the color release.

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>>86709337

It was touched up after the manga finished for later releases.

>Like cartoons and comics
>At the same time can see how anime and manga are objectively superior
I don't know why the rest of you can't.

>>86709386
>anime makes him look like Bruce Lee
>manga and everything else makes it clear that he's supposed to look like an asian version of Mel Gibosn in Mad Max
The anime's decision still bugs me.

>>86703219
>Is One Piece worth getting into? From what I know it's at 800+ issues but only halfway through.

And when it ends, I will feel like I've lost an old friend.

>>86702378
DBZ got big because toriyama was really good with 'em but the most common is shit like jojo where I have no idea wtf is going .

>>86703219

For what the manga is, it's very good and does it extremely well.

The anime however is so low budget it hurts.

>>86709486

In fairness, sometimes Araki does that to intentionally confuse the reader. It's really on a fght by fight basis, but there's plenty of fights in JoJo were it's very easy to understand what's happening.

>>86703331
>Kirby's ideas
ftfy

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>>86708786
Thing is, this wasn't even a problem until recent years. Take any comic before the new millennium and it's way more lively and expressive then what we have now.

>>86709301
>>86709319
>>86709297
>>86709243
I remember reading an interview or something of a mangaka that never really got anything published, but he talked about how hard it was to actually get things made, and if he ever did he could see himself working 24/7 on it because it was basically the culmination of everything he wanted and have been working on.

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>>86703378
This.

>>86702378
All depends where you look for action scenes and what is the purpose of those scenes. Saying X is better than Y in art is just an opinion, your opinion.

Western comics are more story oriented than Manga, whereas they are more about the action and impact. So you take a Manga like One Punch Man or Bleach where the fights are padded with story, comics are stories that are padded with fights, so each focus more on those aspects.

There are of course their exceptions like non-action oriented titles. To each its own, but comparing action scenes from an exclusive action title to a whole genre is idiotic at best.

>>86702378
I think the number of pages also factors in the differences we see between manga and comics. A mangaka can spend a whole chapter (or many chapters) to depict a fight when a lot of comics are based on 6 chapters arc with a begining, a middle and an ending.
All the pages you use to depict a fight are pages lost to tell your stories in a comic.

lets never forget something
manga will use typically 3-5 panels a page
and comics will always use 7-10

manga cheat those page counts if you ask me
but that doesnt mean they arent working hard either. it is just something to consider

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>>86702665
longer version

Have you read comics outside of the Big 2? Invincible has action scenes that make DBZ look tame in comparison. Most of what you posted has so little detail and such a simple art style that it would be easy to make motion and action sequences compared to the more detail and color focused Western comics (or the Big 2 from what I understand you think is all comics). Read some 2000AD, Image or IDW, man.

>>86702378
this scene loses a lot of its oomph when you remember that the other guy just gets up and dusts himself off

>>86708354
Because this is /co/ not /a/?

Why would you expect people here to be deeper into the scene?

>>86709593
It's not really the same things. In old French comics like Asterix, you can also see panel like this which looks like many animation keyframes put in the same panel. It depicts an action but doesn't give you a feeling of movement.

You understand that the Flash is moving fast but you don't feel the speed. And Superman seems to stike a pose like you usually see in comics.

>>86709243
If manuscript is basically easy work and free time his week reads like someone who gets everything done in 2 days then takes it easy.

>>86709243
There are only a few hundred top guys who van keep the schedule and make it
For each one who makes it there are 10,000 wannabes who fail and just ending drawing 2hou porn on pivix and work a dayjob.

>>86709420
In my eyes they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

I think in general we have humor and writing over them, but their art and action puts us to shame.

>>86709973
There's more like that isn't there?
Like the one with Metal knight.

>>86710045
Drawing porn doujins is usually what lots of mangaka fall back on, or at least will do when they're not working on something new.

There are few who start at pron and move to becoming a real mangaka though, they're usually great.

>2hou porn
5 years ago, doing anything 2hu would be easy money, now there are lots of different interests, there's no ez modo to get money

>>86709991
Because /co/ apparently loves to talk about how much better anime and manga are, but only ever bring up the most basic ass shounen ones.

>>86709987

That's kinda the point though, to show that for all the power Vegeta has, it's nothing before Recoome.

>>86708354
Because it's bait.

>>86709883
This is really dependant on the type of stories and the author.
And I'm pretty sure the number of pages has a big impact. Choosing to have 1 or 2 panels in some pages doesn't feel like a waste when you have tens (or hundreds) of chapters to tell your story as opposed to the 6 chapters arc.

In some way, mangaka are more free about what they do in each pages than western comics authors.

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>>86702623
Say what you will about Dragonball, but Toriyama's sense of motion and action is top tier. The way the characters move, the way he illustrates hits and contact. It's so visceral and exciting despite it being still drawings on a page. Don't discount it JUST because it's entry tier. There's reasons its as iconic as it is.

>>86702378

Because historically, manga styles and techniques draw heavily from cartooning and animation while superhero comics lean towards traditional drawing and painting based on referencing.

Cartooning emphasizes action, and animation incorporates cinematography. Traditional, model-based drawing has old ideas about staging and static posing that do not take into account sequential storytelling, nor benefit from observations made since the advent of film.

>>86710144
Not him but if I posted stuff like Tiger Mask, /co/ would probably bitch about the overly simplistic art, even though it's fantastic at displaying pro wrestling as it really is in manga form.

>>86709981
>Invincible has action scenes that make DBZ look tame in comparison.

And I would say Hajime no Ippo puts both to shame.

>>86710089
humor is language/culture bound, too subjective, I've laughed as much as at Ranma as any comic strip.

Nip indie shit is fantastic, if only because you get novel length stories that aren't just 20 somethings masturbating to themselves but you capeshit/animu faggots don't know shit about it.

You can't compare manga and comics, one is a fully developed mainstream industry while the other is a pitiful niche market for nerds and man-children.

We had that mainstream industry in the 50's, but the comics code and TV killed it.

>>86702818
I can hardly tell what is going in this page other than it's supposed to be a fight. Looks messy as hell.

>>86709981
Invincible has good action scenes but better than Dragon Ball? I don't think so. More gory? Probably.
And even if I like the art in Invincible, it's often far from complex and detailed, especially in action scenes.

>>86710258
it's almost Jim Lee bad

>>86706228
Although keep in mind as well, most Mangaka pencil out all their panels and their assistants mostly help with layouts and inking. But I think it's also due to deadlines. Most mangaka work week to week, having to post a chapter weekly would be impossible without assistants.

>>86710197
>overly simplistic art
Remember where you are.

>>86710036
I think you read that wrong, the manuscript are the pages readers will see in the mag, manuscript is the final product.

>>86709420
>anime and manga
>superior
They have their pros and cons just like Western shit, anon. Don't be a fucking weeb.

>>86709799
Even that image looks motionless to me. Its so odd

>>86702479
Sound effect. Its have a speech bubble because it´s a sound effect produced by a specific body part.

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>>86710329
>tfw it's been long enough that a new generation has risen up raised on manga instead of comics and naturally prefer it
face it, /a/ won

>>86710197
Hajime no Ippo is fucking great.

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So how the fuck can I get into more shit? I can't watch anything past like 3 episodes because I keep wondering if it's considered shit or not and I just like it because I don't know better and just drop it.

>>86710214
>one is a fully developed mainstream industry while the other is a pitiful niche market for nerds and man-children.

Both industry sound like both of these things anon. You'll find mainstream and indie shit that panders to a specific group in both.

>>86710497
>worrying more about popular consensus rather than just enjoying stuff you find interesting
What's wrong with you?

>>86710277
>Most mangaka work week to week

This is big common misconception but most mangaka actually work biweekly or monthly. The most popular magazines are weekly though.

>>86710270
The fight scenes and the detail of damage, impact and, yes, even the gore is what makes me like Invincible more. Fight scenes are so goddamn brutal and fucked up, but the art is simple yet detailed enough to make it all feel like an actual fight to the death. Mark's fights with Conquest, for example, are some of my favorite action moments in cape comics. The closest figtbI can think of that comes close to such a brawl was the fight between Sodam Yat and SBP in Sinestro Corps War, but even that's tame in comparison.

>>86710497
Ignore /a/'s opinions just like you ignore /co/'s. If you're concerned about being uninformed, read a few seasonal preview lists to see what formulas are in vogue.

>>86710536
I don't know. I care too much about not having shit taste and it's literally only anime I care about this with.

With everything else, I don;t give a fuck because I know what I do and don't like.

>>86710582
I usually just take a quick list of what interests me on synopsis on some shit like anichart, give it a try then drop it because of the reasons I already said.

>>86710388
That same generation has been watching capeshit movies and have the internet to check out comics from the Big 2 and others. If everything they saw and was inspired by is only manga, than they're only seen a small part of the amazing medium that is comics.

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Dunno, some comics have pretty great action scenes.

>>86710512
nigger pls ,it's like comparing Hollywood to Nip studios, there is no contest in the size, scale and profits...
you sound like the pathetic weebs posting Ultraman movie trailers claiming it's as good as American fx films getting laughed at by /tv/

>>86710176
Toriyama's simple style really allows for some good movement and action. I'd argue it takes a Western approach in that sense, at least compared to modern anime: less detail but more fluidity and movement.

>>86710643
I think I know the problem. Impacts in comics just look so weak.
I mean look at the first panel, dude just looks spooked at the fact someone put their foot to his neck not like he's been kicked in it.

>>86710633
>capeshit dominates the cinema worldwide
>comic readership and sales fall every year
what did kid means by this?

>>86710176
Remember when Dragonball was actually about Martial arts though? Z and beyond is literally fist fights and pretty beams. It's become shit-tier over the years bro.

Prolly the biggest reason manga is popular worldwide are those online sites run by chink pirates... the so called "manga streaming"

Are there comparable sites for comics that lets you read anything for free with such blatant open piracy?

>>86710620
Having shit taste doesn't matter as long as you're not pretentious about it.

>>86710643
I don't like it. Feels like it jumps around from one thing to another too much. Can't get a sense of flow. Like, I want to see how she went from squatting over the guy to tripping the other guy or how she actually managed to break the guy's grip on the sword

>>86710655
>there is no contest in the size, scale and profits...
Are you seriously saying the manga industry is bigger than the Western comic industry? They're both niche as fuck with a good amount of incredibly marketable characters that appeal mostly to kids. Most of the size, scale and whatever is mostly ignored in mainstream media in both sides of the goddamn planet. It doesn't matter how many genres manga covers when everyone just thinks of shonen or shoujo shit, in the same way the indie market in Western comics covers the same number of genres but it's all overshadowed by Marvel and DC shit, and I'm saying this as a fan of DC. Right now the biggest money cash cow!on multiple mediums are goddamn superheroes.

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>>86710824
>Having shit taste doesn't matter

>>86710792
>Are there comparable sites for comics that lets you read anything for free with such blatant open piracy?
Yeah. I like the comic sites better because they load up all the pages of an issue at once so you can just continuously scroll. Haven't seen a manga site do that

>>86710792
View Comic, Readcomiconline, there's probably some others too.

>>86710846
I think you're confusing anime with manga, anime is literally a small merchandising arm of the larger manga print industry.

>>86702378
Fight scenes are shit.

Tell me a fucking story, not show one minute over the course of a $30 book.

>>86710903
decompression was a mistake

>>86710824
>posts x is better than y thread

>not being pretentious

Kek

>>86702378
>weebshit

Reported. Stay in your containment board.

>>86710903
Read a fucking book. This is a predominantly visual medium that requires action to attract and retain readers.

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>>86710874
>interracial
>sidecut
>lesbian
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Princess-Princess-Ever-After/Full?id=91309&readType=1

Noice, how come I've never heard about this on /co/, guess the company was too poor to shill it here

>>86710903
You've never opened up a manga volume have you.

>>86710954
Hey, I didn't make the thread.

>>86711009
Because that was a short ass webcomic

>>86710981
>doesn't understand /co/ is for weebs who read comics too
Stay out of my containment site

>>86710388

I can't help it, I grew up on a military base in Japan (sorta, technically the base and the land it's on is considered US soil)

>>86711106

I never learned how to read Japanese since it was an American-style school, I read by following the pictures. I can speak well enough to hold a conversation though.

>>86710778
Dragon Ball was never about martial arts

>>86702378
They know how to show the full weight and impact as it happens in each panel, no matter how small it is. A lot of comics have the tendency to only show such details until after the action has been made, and more often they only show action scenes in large panels only.

>>86710846

Not that poster, but Japan's manga industry is nearly $3 billion in sales, and this is down 50% from 15 years ago.

US comics industry is under $1 billion, and that includes the translated manga that do so well in bookstores.

>>86711223

How many times did Goku try using the Kamehameha against Jackie Chun in their title match? I think twice, and it didn't matter because Chun's was stronger. Goku didn't have any other ki moves to use.

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>>86710824
>as long as you're not pretentious about it
>when anime watchers act like this so often it might as well be a requirement to watching anime

>>86702448
>Comic artists have a limited amount of time and space, fights can't afford to take up that much
Well maybe if they spent less time talking for a whole issue they'd have enough space for fighting.

>>86711275

That's the point though, US comics are generally more story-focused. A manga is alllowed to have a single chapter be nothing but nonstop fighting when it gets to tell its story arc over the course of 150 chapters and not 6.

>>86711318
tons of mostly repetitious dialog =/= "story"

>>86711354

My point is, when you have way less time to work with, you can't really afford to "waste" chapters as it were.

>>86711318
some of these established weeklies get so fucking lazy with fillers it's amazing... yeah I'm talking about Bleach.

>>86711400
Then fix the story so you don't have to waste time with pointless exposition.

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>>86711354
>Can't multi-task wth talking and fighting
>Some western comics will just have fight sequences when they already showed the point of the story to the reader

How many chapters did mango like Bleach drag out their fights?

>>86711458

In fairness, everyone shits on Bleach for that. It's not something everyone does.

>>86709528
was every fight meant to confuse me ? I mean fuck, i still have no idea how yoshikage died.

>>86711512
>>Can't multi-task wth talking and fighting
Generally, no you can't, or at the very least shouldn't. That's always been retarded.

>>86710824
>Feels like it jumps around from one thing to another too much.
Aside from the 6th panel (kick to the knee), the camera does a counter-clockwise rotation for the entire page (with minor height and zoom differences between the panels).
Thinking of it, a lot of eurocomics read like storyboards, with multiple panels being part of a long take.

>>86711760
>>86711732
>Getting so triggered about people having a little debate that you try to get the thread deleted
Kill yourself, you autistic piece of shit.

>>86711777
You knew this would happen eventually though. You silly goose.

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>>86711556
And yet a mango will take time in more fighting then the repetitiveness will bore the reader when story doesn't progress much.

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>>86711732
>>86711760
>>86711772
>>86711789
>>86711846
>>86711863

>>86711400

Its no excuse. The thread OP is wrong since visual storytelling is a thing in western comics, especially in France and Belgium. But superhero comics for supposed "action comics" suffer from a lot of info-dump speech bubbles and lazy art of heads just talking.

>>86703011
Just because one manga artist has a certain schedule doesn't mean that it's some industry standard.

>>86710329
Anime is so far ahead of Western animation it isn't even funny.

You'll never see people insist Japan's (non-anime) movie industry is on the same level as America's, because it isn't and everyone can see that even if they've made some good stuff. But when it comes to animation people suddenly lose about a hundred IQ points.

>>86710846
Aside from what someone already pointed out about sales, there's manga specifically marketed to girls, boys, men and women, it's very widely read and gets adapted into movies and TV dramas all the time. Just because comics are a certain way in America doesn't mean they must be the same way in Japan. Same goes for animation.

>>86710981
Do you even understand what site you are on?

>>86711835
Why is it comics always make it look so damn weak?

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>>86710824
>I don't like it. Feels like it jumps around from one thing to another too much. Can't get a sense of flow.

DC and Marvel pages filled with speech bubbles are way worse. Comics are a visual medium, they should utilize visual storytelling tools instead of just have a guy standing and tell us what is happening.

Reminds me of Biowares way of "storytelling" in games where heads tell you how that deathstar exploded or how there was a war. Fucking SHOW that explosion or war, instead of just someone talking about it. Its a visual medium for fucks sake.

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>>86711946
Why do the japs suck at modeling?

>>86712029
Because anime is more overdone design to make up for their inability to draw anything detailed. so it doesn't translate well to 3d.

>>86712029
What does that have to do with action scenes lacking much needed oomph?

>>86703011
Then people realize only like top 50 manga creators can actually afford assistants and many have to go it alone or pay for assistants outta pocket

>>86702378
Alone these panels are pretty great, in sequence they're shit.

>>86702378
Looks much better as
the sequence is less shitty.

>>86702399,>>86702405
Much better but I've seen western work that's this good as well, you probably should have picked a better example.

>>86702378
/a/ is trying a little too hard today

>>86712013
>Fucking SHOW that explosion or war, instead of just someone talking about it. Its a visual medium for fucks sake.
That is a really big problem. They don't usually show the connection of a weapon or a punch but the immediate aftermath of it.

>>86709487
Worst part is toei can afford better animation but, like with dbs, is going full jew mode

>>86703226
With shonen series that are several hundred chapters in anime form, ALWAYS read them instead. Naruto suffers from the same horrible time stretching, recapping, previewing and such that One Piece does and it just works far better when you can read at your own pace.
And then there are the filler episodes.

>>86712077
Anime is very detailed and three-dimensional. What are you talking about?

>>86712079
Why are there pones anon?

>>86712151
Sure they can afford it.
But it's going to the hundreds of other projects currently going on.

>>86711318
But the stories suck. Why give them that much space?

The only artists who say that story is more important than action are bad artists who can't draw action.

Western comics has had a big focus on compression for a long time. Compressed storytelling means you don't have the time to devote to full action sequences

>>86712173
Only a couple really are and I don't knwo why teh rest cant be.
depends on the artist.

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Other western comic with a grasp on visual storytelling. I remember years ago my animator teacher's words. That even when you have a dialogue-heavy scene, you must never forget that you're still working with a visual medium. Nobody likes to see two heads flap their gums and stare at each other in emptiness, make them do something WHILE they are talking. Have them make a coffee, light a smoke, casually blow it from their nostrils, steal a gaze from outside a window when someone else is talking. Body language. Anything else than just two statues posing.

And this isnt a problem only in Marvel or DC, TV anime in particular is rather low in quality thanks to low budgets, so we see a lot of "artsy" episodes of floating heads talking, or people walking in dark hallways talking pseudoartsy shit. Even the camera angle cut from the waist so you dont actually have to animate the legs, just swing the cardboard cutout characters back and forth with motion tween. So weeaboo comics and animation also suffer from the same deficiencies, but in different ways.

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>>86712013
I have that double page as my desktop wallpaper.
Sing no Evil is GOAT. One of the best coloring work I've ever seen in any comic.

>>86712252
A couple? It's normal for anime to look detailed and three-dimensional. Again, what are you talking about?

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Does super weeaboo shit like Antarctic Press count for western art or against western art?

>>86712266
>TV anime in particular is rather low in quality
No it isn't.

>weeaboo comics and animation
Japanese things cannot be wannabe Japanese.

>>86712312
Technically Weastboo really since this was made by someone that isn't a jap

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Why can't /co/ admit manga is superior?
Even your idol, Brandon Graham, knows this.

>>86712372
Westaboo is a completely different thing.

>>86712308
random page from most popular manga on this random site

http://mangafox.me/manga/world_trigger/v15/c131/1.html

>>86712402
>random page from most popular manga on this random site
In other words it was completely cherrypicked

>>86712388
I won't admit manga is superior because they're the same thing.

Also:
>Brandon Graham
Who?

>>86712425
whatever you say anon. stay in denial if you want.

>>86712402
What does that have to do with anything?

>>86712388
only /a/ faggots have enough autism to sperg over manga/comics shit.

>>86712430
I'm not even the anon you're arguing with, not have I opened the link. Every time someone says
>completely random
It's always a cherrypicked image to prove their point.

>>86712458
my apologies anon for being a little rude toward your post. I hope that this does not come between us in the future.

>>86712372
Japs can't be weeaboos
Weeaboo means wapanese

>>86702997
>I'd be so fucked off If I payed for a book and got 4 pages in a row with so little content

... a typical comic book usually has LESS content than that.

Decompression of action scenes rather than decompression of plot.

>>86710497
>3 episodes
Aha, perfect
Watch Madoka, episode 3 is where shit hits the fan

>>86702378
/co/ likes comics in general
/a/ is for autists to spazz out over a definition, trying to prove something that doesn't matter.

Guys give me a very kawaii anime to watch with my opaaa >_<

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>>86712312

Theres a lot of older manga artists out there who were influenced by french comics, (especially stuff like Moebius and Enki Bilals comics).

Not just obvious ones like Miyazaki but artists like Katsuya Terada and Tsutomu Nihei too. At the same time a lot of french comics take a lot of ideas from the visual storytelling of mangas and mix it up with the western style.

>>86712667
Boku no pico

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A lot of western comics at least IMO have very weak effects. In this One Piece page, Luffy's attack might be over-emphasized, but it can really be felt, and you directly, see it hit, not just the aftermath.
>>86711835
Looks speedy but looks kinda weak and disjointed. Spider-Mans hand looks weird to me and feels like I'm missing a few panels in the way he slashed
>>86711512
Is long but doesnt have any energy, just aftermaths and posing

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>>86712556
Yet more artistic. Name a manga that is literally artistic in their fights

>>86712762
Shigurui

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>>86712762
Who says Manga fights can't be artistic?

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>>86712762

>>86712751
>Spider-Man
Go back to the rice fields if you are this uneducated

Is manga the man of steel of comic action

>>86702378
The fact that the 20 pages were drawn in a week compared to a month. The speed at which it's drawn is why it looks so fast in action.

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>>86711249
goku still kinda never uses ki moves that often. If we're talking about how many times he shot a fireball against say...Freeza. Over the course of like 10 or so chapters I can only think of like...5 times.

Most of the fight really was martial arts, just taking advantage of the fact that both characters can fly. It's extreme martial arts in the same sense that Star wars is just extreme WWII dogfights.

Of course the anime embeleshes the beams much more but they honestly aren't as prevalent as it initially seems. Goku in particular seldom seems to use them. Vegeta by contrast relies on them heavily.

>>86712838
Regardless of if he got Kaine's name wrong he's still right about the power of the scene.

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>>86712388
Cause I like color in my stories

>>86710981
But the thread's discussion topic involves both manga and comics.

>>86712838
I mostly only read Supes/Bats comics, and some minor indie stuff, don't follow Marvel. But even then, the point stands.
It just looks so weird, >>86711835
Kaine(?) ducks under the knife, and then extends his right arm for the slice, but in the final panel, his right arm is outright, which looks incredibly odd. And the only impact is a blood splat over a nose, we can't even see the injury.

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>>86709593
It was a huge problem back then too.
Extremely rarely, there is any display of speed, physics or movement.
You can see a lot of this in Marvel, where they end up disregarding all their characters canonical physical abilities because it has been going on for fucking decades.

Even in something like Conan, there is no real movement, and its very rare.
The same is even more true for Euro comics, where violence in French comics is for laughs.

>>86712951
How many "SKREE-ONK!"s do you need?

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>>86712622
>/co/ isn't for autists
wut m8

>>86710579
Invincible has some damage, destruction and impact.
SOME

It has paneling that will show case how extreme some of the attacks are.

But better than Dragonball? The manga where characters visible go between ground and fly in arc movements?

>>86713091
autism for other reasons anon

now shoo shoo back to your containment board

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>>86712951

James Stokoe is another good western comic creator who understands visual storytelling.

>>86713151
/a/ was one of the earliest boards on the site which was created for the purpose of sharing anime images.

>>86712762
Depends what kind of 'artistic' you mean.
There aren't many in the style of that Elektra page you posted since most are printed in black and white, and a large number of those that ARE coloured are reprinted black and white ones so they didn't intend to be able to do that sort of thing originally.
Manga known for being 'artistic' are the heavily detailed ones. The fights from One Punch Man (the training scene posted as .gifs earlier is a good example) are often extremely quick in real time, but have each 'frame' in large, detailed format with little things like where characters are looking and aiming being very important for showing how powerful or intelligent they are (Saitama, when sidestepping that huge blast of energy, looks directly at the front of the beam as it moves towards him).

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>>86702378
Lack of Jack Kirby.

Shonen jump specializes in battle manga. It's all about fights. So this creates a breeding ground for specialized artist and stories.

Western comics, while having battles, are more well rounded with stories. Not to mention changing of artist and writers constantly.

Japan comic industry has multiple manga magazines that focus on specialized stories. From romance to action. Which creates a better breeding ground for artist to hone their talent. May be a slaves job, but your more likely to get some pay.

I'd also like to stress the difference in western live action tv vs japans. Ours provides a healthier breeding ground for live tv. You can film anywhere in the us. Japan, however, is roughly the size of california. Not much room for big studios to film. This provides another factor to why japan may have an advantage to having more artists providing stories.

To pigyback off of what >>86712751 is saying, I think the most important thing is how it's drawn. You see, people aren't static images. They're constantly in motion, especially dirng an action scene. In order to catch that feeling of motion it's imperative to exaggerate your poses in ways that may not be anatomically correct. Batman's fight >>86711512 looks like it's rotoscoped. Like someone had someone fight, took still images from that fight and then traced the action. I don't feel the power behind batman's elbow in panel 5. I don't feel any motion to his attack in panel 4. This doesn't feel like I'm catching people in the proccess of movement. It feels like Batman and his opponent are taking a series of poses for an action themed photoshoot.

The movement is correct, but it's not fluid and doesn't seem to convey the action so much as it conveys the AFTERMATH of the action.

>>86711835
Similarly, compared to those first two panels, the character is oddly stiff in the final picture. He's looking head on. His body is is stiff and rigid. The only part of his body that looks like it has moved is his arm. And the only way we even think THAT is because of the few action lines and because based on the sequence of events, that's the most obvious conclusion. This panel on it's own doesn't capture the feeling of an impact, so much as it IMPLIES that impact happened. The character isn't posing or moving as if they put ANY of their weight or action into this attack and their opponents REACTION to the attack is so much more exaggerated.

>>86713184
old peoples homes exist. what else is news.

>>86710643
You have a example scene with no footwork, she teleports around if examination thoroughly.
There is action, but there is no motion and no impact.

>>86711512
Tons of still poses with no movement.

>>86711835
Spiderman is the KING of lack of movement.
He is in a tier where he should literally move like a alien because of the way his powers and strength combine, instead you get these really awkward action scenes with some movement in one direction and weird fistcuff exchanges.

>>86713234
What are you talking about?

>>86709420
They're the same fucking medium you idiot.

>>86713309
That doesn't mean they're the same thing.

>>86709297
I would but he killed off the waifus

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>>86712751
agreed Luffy is the best at having each punch feel like they HURT.

>>86711919
>Anime is so far ahead of Western animation it isn't even funny.
Animation in general already peaked anime is not breaking new ground, so I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. It's not that anime is better it's just that people are willing to try there.

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>>86713219

> I think the most important thing is how it's drawn.

More important is the proper layout and storytelling design. Problem with superhero comics is they dont pay too much attention to that, so the pacing is off in them. Even the more "peaceful" genres in mangas can feel more fast-paced and exciting than a panel of Superman punching a villain in a DC comic.

Its not about the joke or how funny it is. Its all about how you tell the joke. If this example page wouldve been done by Marvel, it wouldve been one page or even two-page spread of the monster standing in place with the head in his hands, doing all the dialogue at once in a string of long speech bubbles.

If you want to make anything look more exciting, you need to simply draw more and show more effort that way. 4+ pages explaining fast paced action are less waste than one single page of Superman punching a dude and talking a novel into the page.

>>86713366
>Animation in general already peaked
Correct. Nothing will ever be better than Fleischer Superman. No matter how much slave labor they use.

>>86712762
Sais don't cut...Why don't no one understand this?!

>>86713366
Anime has broken a great deal of ground that has never been explored by Western animation, least of all American animation.

>It's not that anime is better it's just that people are willing to try there.
It's not that Usain Bolt is a better runner than me, he's just willing to try. Yeah.

>>86713411
What is so special about Superman, and why is it not "slave labor" when Americans outsource all their work to Korea or other Asian countries?

>>86702378
Are we being "raided" /a/gain?

Manga likes to be overdramatic with its action scenes.
Usually when they are not, its because the dude is super op and just bitch slaps the enemy.

Peopel who dont know any nerdy shit at all know that anime is full of crazy characters and action. and its also the reason they don't like it.

But of a extreme example but. I mean everyone likes to to watch at least one Michael bay movie in their lifetime, But in the end its not the flashiness that makes the action but its also a godo part of it. blah blah etc etc

>>86702378
Grorious nippon pages folded over 1000 times

>>86713469
I think they're just arguing amongst themselves now.

>>86703011
TOGASHI DID NOTHING WRONG

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>>86711946
They don't add any oomph to their punches or swings

>>86709455
>One Piece will end in your lifetime
I envy you, young, healthy anon

I have an idea that could force artists to pay more attention to human movement and detail.
Make cyberpunk more popular again, like it was in the 90s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOV_mpwkU8Y

If they're forced to write stories where the most famous ones they'll be compared to are famous specifically for having a perfect balance of talking and action while remaining detailed (even when animated), then they might actually have to put some effort in.
Also I'll then get more cyberpunk because holy fuck there is so little of it nowadays

>>86703044
>h typically 7 chapter
>7
weekly jump generally has upwards of 15 manga running at one time.
Right now there are 21 manga currently running, although one or two are monthly, so it's probably like 17 in every issue

>>86713411
>That tall stiltmen
It almost feels like I am watching a better animated version of Jojo.
That said ,the era had great understanding of that how things looks is better than what they should behave.

I don't think something like Samurai jack is better, because all that slave labor do pay off, but Jack is a rare piece of western media that tries to do portrayal of superhumans, even if the portrayal fluctuates a lot.

>>86713450
>What is so special about Superman
It cost 4x the amount of a regular show at the time, which will never happen again.

>why is it not "slave labor" when Americans outsource all their work to Korea or other Asian countries?
I never mentioned a specific country. Not even the US will produce something better because they also employ slave labor.

>>86713577
what is that from?

There are a few western artists that can do action scenes like that but almost none of them work in mainstream comics. Adam Warren is one.

Only western cape artist that came close was Damian Scott back in his Cassandra Cain Batgirl days.

>>86713743
>It cost 4x the amount of a regular show at the time, which will never happen again.
Ok. What about it?

>I never mentioned a specific country.
Slave labor is almost exclusively used to refer to Japanese animators. Who have surpassed Superman hundreds of times in hundreds of ways.

>>86713763
tsugumomo

>>86713151
I always knew /co/ was new

>More detail = artistic

>>86714000
>more artistic = detailed

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>>86713676

You dont need to be more realistic or detailed to get a sense of speed or weight in a comic, theres more factors to that. More cartoony styles can use a lot of symbolism to do the same.

Point is, superhero comics feel stiff and lifeless because instead of explaining what is happening with visual images and drawings, creators in Marvel and DC decide to make one picture and tell the rest what is happening with speech bubbles.

Simple solution would be to cut out the number of dialogue in a superhero comic drastically and then the storytellers would have no choice but to figure out how to convey something to the audience with visuals alone.

>>86710214
>Nip indie shit is fantastic, if only because you get novel length stories that aren't just 20 somethings masturbating to themselves but you capeshit/animu faggots don't know shit about it.
how do get into indie manga?

>>86702496
>>86702937
Look at what happens when humberto ramos does cartoony action; people cry about "MUH ANATOMY"

>>86714077
click the random button on manga reading site.

>>86702378
I'm surprised no one's posted Saitama vs Boros or Metal Bat vs Garou, yet since those are also good examples of great fight choreography

>>86714105
>indie
NOPE
fuck off, i dont think i was asking you.

>>86713577
>>86711835
In the comic, the background either stays in one place or disappears entirely for the action shot.

In the manga, it gets shaped with the action, and blurs, and reacts when things hit it, and then blurs more when it does that.

>>86712762
Hellsing
Soul Eater
Shigurui

>>86713340
>Punched him so hard he actually disfigured him.

>>86714117
rude much but its true, just do that and rant about it on a chinese picture posting forum.

>>86713577
this manga is border like kiddie porn, mostly /ss/, so GOOD

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>>86714116
The Boros fight is fucking glorious, due to how often it zooms out to show how it's fucking up the ship

Hell, it zooms out to show it affecting Earth occasionally too

>>86714077
Fantagraphic publishes a number of them

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>>86714127

Main difference: In the Spiderman comic, the artist thinks of the backgrounds as backgrounds. And in the manga, the artist thinks of it as an environment where the characters are in.

Its not just a manga thing. Plenty of western comics know how to do proper action. Superhero comics are just fucking lazy probably because both the artists and the storywriters get paid fuck all, only to be replaced by friends of editors and shitfaces like Bendis.

>>86714195
This just gave my eyes aids

speed lines

that is literally all

>>86712880
>Goku in particular seldom seems to use them. Vegeta by contrast relies on them heavily.

This is part of the reason I dislike Vegeta. He just beams shit like crazy. Its a damn shame he stole the spotlight from actual martial artists. I hate how his fanboys don't get why he never catches up when all he did for years was just train in progressively harder gravity and never actually studied martial arts.

>>86714195
>ffects and speedlines, the manga
he's gotten pretty lazy

>>86714176>>86714077

okay but i want to read some indie manga.....a site with a bunch of mainstream manga doesn't sound like itd be what i want + just because i get a random option doesn't mean i'm going to get an indie manga, and since i'm not a manga reader, i can easily get some popular mainstream manga and not know the difference.

>>86714231
okay thank you

>>86714251
don't forget soud effects
KA KA KA
SHA SHA SHA
DON DON DON

>>86714233
That difference is very, very prominent in animation.

>>86714265
true but im just begin retarded so you should ignore me

>>86714251
DELET HIS

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>>86714195
>Not posting Moon Kick

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>>86714251
speedlines are so good, makess everything zip zoop

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how can comics even compete??

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>>86714329
Well I'm justing going to post Garou vs Metal Bat, and maybe Saitama vs Genos since that's also a good example

>>86705844
>Akira
I'm going to have to ask you to stop

>>86714233

> In the Spiderman comic, the artist thinks of the backgrounds as backgrounds. And in the manga, the artist thinks of it as an environment where the characters are in.

There's artists who do definitely put a lot of consideration in their backgrounds. Off hand I can think of Steve Epting, who worked on Captain america for a long time, and made great use of urban environments like rooftops and city streets. Honestly I think as far as really thorough portrayals of cityscapes go, superhero comics, at least the better ones, do it much better than anything else otut here; probably because its such a part of the language of superhero comics. Rooftop jumping and swinging across the skies.

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>>86714423

>>86714364
A
C
TRUE
I
O
N

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>>86714491

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>>86714291

Has to be, if you want to make movement that looks believable. Theres plenty of TV anime out there that do a lot of shortcuts though, like closeups of characters walking with legs cut out so you dont have to actually animate the walking.

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>>86714516

>>86714516
>>86714551
you missed a page in there

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>>86714551

>>86714491
Metal Bat mang is so damn cool.

>>86714547
That doesn't have anything to do with treating backgrounds as backgrounds vs. locations, and if it was a live action show nobody would complain about the actors not having their legs visible.

>>86702997
well manga is way cheaper and comes out weekly, it kind of balances out

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>>86714572
Oh i'll fix that
>>86714516

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>>86714580

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>>86714660

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>>86714690

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>>86714729

>>86714611

But everyone would think something is off if those live actors would walk around like retards and occasionally lift off the ground and levitate. And thats what will happen if you try to animate someone walk and you have no fucking clue how anatomy, perspective and weight works. You think animation is easy? Its a whole set of new complex rules on top of rules of drawing shit you preferably already have to know.

https://youtu.be/Q4nWu7N3hLM

>>86714859
You done weeb? I wanna post some good western art.
Dave Sim, Cerebus vs Cirin

>>86714851
>And thats what will happen if you try to animate someone walk and you have no fucking clue how anatomy, perspective and weight works.
That isn't a problem in the anime industry. What are you talking about?

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>>86714780
>>86714859
That entire section was redrawn

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>>86714924

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>>86702378
>>86702390
>>86702399
>>86702405
>tfw too intelligent to enjoy dragon pleb

>>86714891
lol, what's stopping you?

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>>86714956

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>color

>>86714997
My autism
I hate two sequences going at once, even if the posts have links to each other.