Whose magic is stronger?

The more talented one.

So Morrison.

Moore has gotten old, and become insular and withdrawn, rejecting the world.

Morrison seems to have embraced the world, attempting to get it high on whatever he's on, and seems to have been rewarded with eternal youth and baldness.

moore has more classics under his belt. even his cape shit is superior to morrison's.

>>86698009
>Implying Moore isn't just an alternate universe Grant Morrison from the future where hyper crisis is real
The hints are right there people.

Stan Lee, consumer of souls

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>>86698397

Alan Moore is Leo Quintum?

>>86698374
Moore probably does have the best pieces of Cape fiction under his belt, but I think Morrion works better with the shared universe.
Miracleman is GOAT

>>86698315
their children would be unstoppable

All memes aside, they are both weak and powerless.

Moore is using all his magical powers in an attempt to prevent Hollywood from adapting his works, but we all know what a failure that is.

Morrison is using all his magical powers in an attempt to entice Hollywood into adapting his works, but we all know what a failure that is.

Neither is powerful enough to get what they want.

>>86698686
The reason that they're failures is that they're equally matched.

>>86698686
Grant married his dream girl, lives in a castle, and will never have to work again if he so chooses thanks to residuals from "A Serious House on a Serious Earth"

I don't know Alan's situation but I think Grant got everything he wanted.

>>86698009

They're the same dude, wig and fake beard.

>>86698775
I wonder if Moore has gotten over his wife cucking him with another woman.

>>86698775
Alan uses his money to help others. He sends checks to collaborators instead of cashing them himself, and occasionally he pulls shit like this:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/nov/12/alan-moore-donates-10000-to-help-friend-bring-his-african-wife-to-the-uk

He's as well-off and financially-secure as he wants to be.

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>>86698686
That's hilarious and sad at the same time.

>>86698793
Y'know, I've never seen them in the same place at once...

>>86698775
How much did A serious house on a serious earth sell? I keep hearing that Grant got rich just with that book.

>>86698917
He was rich before as well. Grant is an asshole who uses his act to excuse his actions.

>>86699084
How so

Moore. I'm sure he lost his virginity at a later age than Morrison. He's also a hateful hermit. His power level is probably off the charts.

>>86699266
>Moore. I'm sure he lost his virginity at a later age than Morrison.

You clearly don't know anything about Grant's youth and adolescence.

>>86698917
I don't know how many units it's sold, but it's almost always been in print and Grant makes $1 for each copy sold.

>>86699084
He was on government assistance when he started out. He was never "rich before"

>>86698775
Moore's set because DC will literally never stop printing Watchmen

>>86699519
Morrison was on parental assistance. He was a NEET whose parents paid for him to live at home, never get a job, never go to school, and spend all his time screwing around with his friends and his band.

He calls himself working class, but he never worked a day in his life. He was more well-off than you think.

>>86699266
Who needs girls when you have comics?

>>86698009
I don't know...
On the one hand, Gandalf is iconic and without him the one ring would have destroyed all of Middle Earth...
But Voldemort has all those minions, and wand-wielding sleazes beat Hobbits any day.
Then again, Voldemort has that thin little wand while Gandalf has a big, long bad-ass staff...
But Gandalf had only one reincarnation/upgrade while Voldemort had a bunch...
Do giant snakes trump giant eagles?
Well, I think Voldemort was technically in more movies...
But if there's a winner by a nose...
I guess I choose the guy that got to wear the sorting hat.

>>86700007
The eagles beat everything, including a giant dragon that's bigger than several mountains put together. So no a giant snake can't drumpf them.

>>86698917
It sold really well because it came out right when the Burton Batfilm came out, and the contract was structured in his and Mckean's favor.

I've never read anything by Morrison except the Arkham Asylum thing. Am I not living my life correctly?

>>86700404
Unless you're a superhero fanatic, you're fine. He's important and influential for superhero comics, but not really a big deal outside of those.

>>86698009
Moore relies too much on the favor of Glycon.

>>86700537
I'm not a fanatic of anything but if he's such a big deal, I might be missing out on something.
Also I just remembered that I did read All Star Superman once and thought it was kind of dumb.

>>86698215
CORRECT

Superman will come back someday.

>>86700572
I didn't really like ASS that much either, I thought it relied too much on references and homages to previous comics instead of standing up on its own. To be honest, I don't like anything he does with A-listers, be it Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, the Justice League...

Animal Man was a comic that I liked. If you want to try some more Morrison, that's one that I recommend.

>>86700640
Keep seeing the omnibus on most shelves, I might try that one then.

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Paul Dini is clearly the actual wizard in comics

>>86698009
fuck alan moore. he's a greasy neckbeard. the only greasy neckbeard i'm willing to support is rick rubin because he made up for his neckbeardedness by helping make yeezus

>>86700537
The Invisibles massively influenced all of the Wachowskis' work. Sens8 especially.

>>86700677
Just because you managed to summon a succubus, doesn't mean you're a wizard.

>>86700677
I don't know man, making your waifu real is impressive but Morrison married his Earth-11 self. At best it's a draw.

>>86700677
I think that was Morrison's doing, actually, and I maintain that one of the ulterior motives for Seven Soldiers is that Dini asked Morrison to help him marry his waifu. Remember, Zatanna reaches out of the comic into the real world.

>>86700723
Yeah, that just makes you a warlock.

>>86700572
Animal Man is his best cape work, JLA is his most influential. It basically set the tone for all "BIG" team book stories. For some reason the Ultimates is credited with this, but it's very clearly JLA. Think 2000s event comics where wild shit is happening every other page, except actually good.
Doom Patrol is also excellent.

>>86700537
>the Invisibles isn't influential
Fuck outta here

>>86700721
>>86700809
1, Invisibles is cape.
2, Invisibles is plagiarism.

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>>86700832
Fuck outta here Moore. Morrison BTFO you and your fat cuck friend already. Morrison has hard dates backed up by publications, Moore has "oi oy remembah dat when..." bullshit.
http://www.comicsbeat.com/the-strange-case-of-grant-morrison-and-alan-moore-as-told-by-grant-morrison/

>>86700832
Also how is Invisibles cape?
By that logic Preacher is cape, Martha Washington is cape, Manifest Destiny is cape, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is cape.

>>86700832
Has anyone mentioned WHAT it is Morrison plagarized? I keep seeing Moorcock brought up but no one has actually pointed to specific quotes from Moorcock's work that Morrison plagarized from in what context.

>>86698009
Moore is clearly Gandalf, so that would make Morrison Saruman in this scenario.

>>86700700
>helping make yeezus
Shouldn't that make you hate him more?

>>86701070
It's Moorcock and Moore being assholes for the sake of being assholes. If there was a real case Moorcock would have sued Morrison already. Moorcock literally has gone on record as saying that Morrison plagarized all of his work. "I've read the work of Grant Morrison twice. Once when I wrote it. Once when he wrote it" but anything he could have a legitimate claim over is less than one issue of the Invisibles.
He literally has never even read the story in question.

>>86700987
Grant Morrison is a liar, and you should do your own research instead of blindly trusting everything that he says.

For example, this is the first thing that Morrison says about Michael Moorcock in your article:
>And if Moorcock made any complaints to DC in the ’90s, I never heard about them. I had no idea there was any beef with Moorcock until Pop Image’s Jonathan Ellis drew my attention to it in 2004

And yet, here is what Grant Morrison had to say about Michael Moorcock in 1997:
>He said my work was crass and immature and a disgrace, but, as Mark points out, Michael Moorcock branding your work crass and immature is probably a great compliment! I think he read one issue and has no concept. He's made a fool of himself because he seems to think that the whole of The Invisibles is based on the Jerry Cornelius concept without having read the rest of what we've done.

And here again, Morrison in 1999:
>Moorcock saw the 'Gideon Stargrave' arc in the first volume of Invisibles and hated it - as far as I'm aware, he assumed the whole series was a rip-off of his character and didn't bother reading any more. I believe I was dismissed as 'crass' by the great man. C'est la vie.

1997 and 1999 are before 2004, right?

So right from the very beginning of this topic, Morrison is lying to you, and you swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

Nevertheless, I am not angry at you, and I forgive your attacks against me.

>>86701044
Are you implying jojo isn't cape?

>>86698009
Who cares, who would be the better woman, thats the important question.

>>86701070
King Mob AKA Gideon Stargrave is Jerry Cornelius.

Morrison sometimes says he isn't.
>Stargrave was originally based on the lead character in J. G. Ballard's 'The Day Of Forever'; everyone thought he was ripped off from Jerry Cornelius, but it was Ballard.

Morrison sometimes admits that he is.
>I feel that I must explain a little about Gideon Stargrave. ... The character ... was inspired by my enthusiasm for the work of J.G. Ballard and Michael Moorcock. As a thinly veiled rip-off of Moorcock's "Jerry Cornelius" character, Stargrave was a ruthless yet likable dandy assassin

You can't trust what Morrison says, he flip-flops too often.

>>86701135
Moorcock isn't going to sue because he already let that character go, when he gave permission for the whole world to use Jerry Cornelius freely.

The problem is that Morrison was using Jerry Cornelius while lying and claiming that he wasn't, which was pretty rude to be honest.

>>86701211
>King Mob AKA Gideon Stargrave is Jerry Cornelius.

I've heard Gideon Stargrave compared to Jerry Cornelius but not King Mob himself (even though Stargrave is obviously a self-insert of King Mob that he uses for his novels).

>>86701136
But that doesn't make Morrison wrong about what he said in the 90s, less than one issue worth of story could be "plagiarized" (a homage no more egregious than the ones Moore used in Top 10 or Miracleman), and yet the Moorcock thinks not only the Invisibles but Morrison's entire body of work is plagiarism?
Morrison was a drug addict and alcoholic in the 90s. Maybe he legitimately didn't remember. I find that doubtful, but regardless, him lying about the subject does not make him wrong.

>>86701244
Stargrave predates Mob, and Mob is an extension of Stargrave rather than the other way around.

>>86701211
>The problem is that Morrison was using Jerry Cornelius while lying and claiming that he wasn't, which was pretty rude to be honest.
Morrison straight up admitted he was based on his Moorcock fanfiction. He just said it wasn't plagiarism, because it wasn't, it was well within the bounds of a reasonable homage.

>>86701269
That's not how intellectual property works though. Mob is a distinct entity with a different appearance, style and personality.

>>86701258
>(a homage no more egregious than the ones Moore used in Top 10 or Miracleman),
It's not an homage when he denies that it's an homage.

When he denies any connection to Moorcock, that's not an homage, that's a lie, that's plagiarism.

>>86701275
>Morrison straight up admitted he was based on his Moorcock fanfiction.
No, he straight up denied it. He LATER admitted the connections, but ORIGINALLY he denied it.

>>86701302
Then what exactly did he plagarize?

>>86701297
>That's not how intellectual property works though.
It's not a legal issue, only a moral issue.

It's not a legal issue because Moorcock said that the whole world has his permission to use Jerry Cornelius. He can't sue anyone because he gave up on protecting his copyright.

It's a moral issue because Morrison lied and denied the connection.

>>86701324
Jerry Cornelius.

>>86698009

Well Grant still loves his job and is the EiC of Heavy Metal.
Moore is a bitter old literal cuck that hasn't written anything worthwhile in years

>>86701352
>Jerry Cornelius.

I mean specifically. Cause I can actually believe it but I want to know what specifically of Moorcock's Jerry Cornelius that he lifted from.

>>86701044
Preacher is a cape. In one of the introductions to the volumes they talk about it and make a pretty good argument.
>Jesse has supernatural powers
>Jesse wears an outfit that stands out
>Jesse goes around righting wrongs and defending the weak
It is a cape, yes.

>>86701380
Just the character in general. Morrison even admits it in >>86701211.

>>86701352
No even morally that's not how IPs work. King Mob as a character appeared before Gideon Stargrave and is completely different. Even if Morrison conceived that Mob would have the alter ego from the beginning (which I doubt with the way he carried himself then and also how he's described his writing process) he still created the entirely separate character of King Mob on his own.

>>86701421
>King Mob as a character appeared before Gideon Stargrave
Morrison has been writing Gideon Stargrave since 1978, over 15 years before King Mob.

>>86701145
Yes? The characters don't go out of their way to save people, nor do they have a Superhero persona (secret identity or no).
The first 2 arcs are definitively Shonen.

>>86701400
I'd hardly call a roman collar a superhero costume. By this logic cop movies are Superhero movies

>>86701483
>By this logic cop movies are Superhero movies
I love how you ignored the supernatural powers aspect to make it fit your argument.

>>86701502
It doesn't have to be supernatural to be cape though, just far above any normal person, special training etc, like all of the nonpowered capes in comics.

>>86701441
Shit you're right. So you maintain that Mob is a direct derivation of the character, because the closest links between them in concept are "Badass assassin"

>>86701502
Batman doesn't have supernatural powers.

>>86701483
I don't know about you, but I have 3 criteria for superheroes:
>1, special abilities
>2, distinctive appearance
>3, secret/separate identity

If a story meets all 3 then it's definitely cape. If a story meets 2, like some of what you mentioned, then I consider it borderline. If it only meets 1, like cops in blue, then it's not cape, and doesn't belong in this conversation.

>>86701560
>Batman doesn't have supernatural powers
Yes he does, it's called Batwankery and it lets him get away with literally anything.

>>86701402
But saying "Gideon Stargrave is a ripoff of Jerry Cornelius" isn't enough. In the case of plagarism you could point to the Batman story "The Case of the Chemical Syndicate" and The Shadow story "Partners of Peril" and point to specific things that Bill Finger lifted from (Bruce Wayne talking to Commissioner Gordon, the glass chamber trap) or Bob Kane's art swipes, while also being able to tell what's different about them (Batman has no agents, there was no female character involved like in the Shadow story).

>>86701560
But so many cop movies are about "Oh they're operator special forces badass better than the rest" guys who became cops. And if that doesn't work for you as "special abilities" then the Punisher isn't a cape.

>>86698917
It was the best selling book -not only comics- for quite a while back then.

>>86701555
King Mob was created as an extension of Gideon Stargrave, and Gideon Stargrave was created as a rip-off of Jerry Cornelius. That's the link.

Would it hold up in court? I don't know. Frankly, I don't care.

The point is, Morrison lied about Gideon Stargrave, and I consider that a lie about King Mob too. Moorcock wouldn't be angry at Morrison if Morrison had ORIGINALLY admitted the truth. Moorcock might not be angry at Morrison if Morrison had apologized for the lie.

But I don't think that I've ever seen Morrison apologize for anything he's ever done. And why should he? He has research-phobic suckers like you lining up to defend him.

>>86701592
>But saying "Gideon Stargrave is a ripoff of Jerry Cornelius" isn't enough.
"Enough" for what?

Morrison admitted that Stargrave is a rip-off. Why didn't you read his quote?

>>86701596
I said that 2 is borderline. As in, use your own judgment. I consider Punisher over the border and in cape territory on account of the fact that he lives in a cape universe. Those special forces cops don't.

>>86698917
A lot. It was a hardcover plus it was released the year the Batman movie came out. I know that nowadays movies don't always affect comic sales but there were some exceptions, and the Batman comic sales in 1989 was one of them. A lot of Batman stuff out that year, not just Arkham Asylum, sold really well. IIRC Alan Grant said that sales on Detective Comics went up from like 75,000 to 675,000 a month.

Neil Gaiman

>>86701672
>King Mob was created as an extension of Gideon Stargrave
We don't really know if that's true though. Stargrave becomes an element of the story about halfway through, he's not intrinsically tied to the character. Once again, the only real links between them are "badass assassin".

>>86701791
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Do you at least acknowledge that both >>86701136 and >>86701211 are examples of Morrison lying about the situation?

>>86698009
Moore's magic is stronger, however it has consumed him, making him old and weary. Meanwhile Morrison still has not been burned out by it.

>>86701725
Okay, Ash from Evil Dead? He lives in a similarly supernatural universe to Jesse, has a distinctive appearance (chainsaw hand) and is a demon slayer.

>>86701836
Wouldn't powerful magicians retain their youthful vigor or at least put up an illusion of such?

>>86701853
>and is a demon slayer
That's not the third criterion that I listed. Use your best judgment. You're so focused on trying to prove me wrong about something that I feel like you've lost sight of the forest for the trees.

>>86701829
Absolutely, I don't understand why he lied either.

>>86701672
>Frankly, I don't care.

Well it's a shame because all you're satisfied with is "Morrison lied" and not "what are the comparisons between the characters" which is pretty damn important.

>"Enough" for what?

Enough to compare.

The Dial B For Blog believes that the Spider-Man costume that Ditko designed may have been influenced by a Ben Cooper "Spiderman" costume that was around in the 50's. When confronted about it, Ditko said "The burden of proof is on the person who makes the assertion, claim, charge. Some clippings, etc., are not rational proof of anything but some clippings, etc.” But also keep in mind, in 1963 Ben Cooper got the license to make a Marvel Spider-Man costume, long before Spider-Man got into any media outside of comics.

This is important because you need to know what specifcally it is that things are lifted from and how it compares to say, Alan Moore making Supreme even more like Superman than Rob Liefeld did (easy answer: Moore didn't hide that he was doing that, but then that also brings up the question of what constitutes a plagarism).

>>86701893
How is being a demon slayer not a special ability?

So Jesse is use judgement?

>>86701916
So when Morrison admits that Stargrave is a rip-off, you want to argue that Morrison is wrong?

>>86701918
Sorry, you listed demon slayer third so I thought that you meant it as the third criterion, not the first. But again, I need the third criterion. Or for you to use your judgment.

I'm not the first person to call for people using their own judgment. Are you familiar with this legal ruling for erotica?
>I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that.

>So Jesse is use judgement?
Yes. Also, I'm not the Anon who said that Preacher is cape, so it doesn't really matter to me anyways.

>>86701672
Rip off doesn't mean plagiarism though, Supreme is a Superman rip off, as is Majestic, Apollo, Omni-Man, the list goes on. But none of these things are plagiarized. It's extremely difficult to plagiarize characters, vs plagiarizing music, or someone's information in a paper. The context they're used in, the things they say, the design all factor into plagiarism. Whether the artist admits they were influenced by something does not.
Warren Ellis has never gone on record saying Apollo and Midnighter are Superman and Batman homages/gay rip offs, but that doesn't make them any less so.

>>86701977
Look, the problem here is you're letting your axe to grind with Morrison blind you to the more obvious fact, no one pointed out the specific plagarisms he did. And I actually want to know. Obviously Morrison's not gonna say what he lifted from at this stage, especially if he wants to avoid litigation. He said the Invisibles was ripped off by the first Matrix but I watched the first Matrix and read the Invisibles and they were still distinct things. I could see what the Matrix imitated. But at the same time the Invisibles wasn't about a world where they were freedom fighters in a post-apocalyptic world overtly run by machines. And Neo definitely isn't anything like Jack other than being a "chosen one."

>>86702047
>Warren Ellis has never gone on record saying Apollo and Midnighter are Superman and Batman homages/gay rip offs, but that doesn't make them any less so.
Did he ever lie about it, try to hide the connection, like Morrison did?

>Whether the artist admits they were influenced by something does not.
Now you're downplaying Morrison's actions. He didn't just say that he was "influenced", he said it was a "rip-off", which is far, far more serious than merely being "influenced".

You're making comparisons to other creators that don't hold up. You're trying to obscure the truth of Morrison's actions. What is it that you're hoping to accomplish?

>>86702121
>no one pointed out the specific plagarisms he did
That Gideon Stargrave IS Jerry Cornelius, and even Morrison admits this. Sometimes.

>Look, the problem here is you're letting your axe to grind with Morrison blind you
Considering that I was initially accused of BEING Moore because I even dared to raise the subject, I think it's the Morrison defenders who are choosing to be blind.

>>86702133
So it's only plagiarism because he lied about it? That doesn't make sense. You could either make a clear case based on the work alone for full blown plagiarism or you can say "yea that's a rip off/homage/whatever you want to call it but it's not plagiarism". You're warping the definition of plagiarism to shit on a writer you don't like.

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>>86702161
>Considering that I was initially accused of BEING Moore because I even dared to raise the subject
First day on 4chan Alan?

>>86702201
>So it's only plagiarism because he lied about it?
No, I call it plagiarism because it's a rip-off. Not a pastiche, not an homage, not a tribute, not a parody, not merely inspired or influenced by something, but a rip-off.

The lie is my justification for telling you that Warren Ellis is irrelevant to this conversation. And I really don't understand what your goal with this conversation is. What do you think that you're going to accomplish? Will you somehow convince the whole world to never bring up the plagiarism again?

Well, Morrison already admits that it's a rip-off, so I don't think that you'll get very far with claiming that Morrison is wrong about that.

>>86702212
The fact that I get attacked for even bringing it up, even though we have proof that Morrison was lying, shows that the pro-Morrison side is approaching this discussion emotionally and not rationally.

>>86701483
>The characters don't go out of their way to save people, nor do they have a Superhero persona (secret identity or no)

The first point is also true of the X-Men and the second point is true of half of the X-Men.

So basically, JoJo is Japanese X-Men.

>>86702246
Once again a rip off is not plagiarism.
Plagiarism is:
"the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own."
Even when Morrison said that it wasn't Moorcock's he still said it wasn't his own original idea.
My goal is to get you to stop abusing the definition of plagiarism, a pretty serious charge to levy against a writer or artist of any kind, to shit on a writer you don't like. Call him a liar, call him disingenuous, but to say he stole the character and passed it off as his own original creation is bullshit per the quotes you posted.

>>86702290
Lol what the X Men go out of their way to protect people and stop evil all the time

>>86702161
>Considering that I was initially accused of BEING Moore because I even dared to raise the subject, I think it's the Morrison defenders who are choosing to be blind.

The Morrison defenders calling you Moore are irrelevant to this part of the discussion. I want to know what the comparisons between Cornelius and Stargrave are. You fall back toward Morrison's words which as you say are unreliable, just as his claim that the Matrix was a complete plagarism of the Invisibles was unreliable. So I'm not exactly finding his definition of what a rip-off is reliable.

>>86702278
You're getting fanny flustered someone used a common 4chan style of argumentation, what does that say about your emotional approach?

>>86702300
That's marketing taglines and nostalgia talking, it's not an honest representation of what they've actually been doing in the books for the past at least 15 years.

>>86701483
>The characters don't go out of their way to save people
Josuke did all time, so do johnathan, johnny and gyro.
>nor do they have a Superhero persona (secret identity or no).
Neither does nick fury, thor, Jean Grey, or luke cage. (anymore)

>>86701560
>Batman doesn't have supernatural powers.
Extremely advanced technology counts as a superpower.

>>86702295
Morrison admitted the connection to J.G. Ballard in 1988, not in 1978 when he first started writing Gideon Stargrave and passed the character off as his own.

>>86702321
Even when the X-Men are just fighting other X-Men in the core titles, there's always some ancillary title where they go out and fight evil in the name of good.

>>86702321
Uncanny X Force was a proactive assassin team that stops major mutant threats before they even happen.
I haven't read an X Book since then but that alone balks at your claims
Even so, Claremont and Morrison have them doing that, which are pretty definitive interpretations, so...

>>86702332
So exceptions now define the JoJo story? And saving people is also a Shonen trope, which I already said that the first 2 arcs expressly are, Shonen has a lot of crossover with cape, but they aren't the same thing. (Also Jonathan goes out of his way to save what that one kid? His wife when they become under attack from Dio?)

>thor
Had a split secret identity in multiple incarnations, and currently has one. Was just Thor for less time than he has been thor with a secret identity
>Jean Grey
Used to be Marvel Girl, then Phoenix

>Nick Fury
is a secret agent technically. He would never consider himself a superhero and honestly probably wouldn't go out of his way to save someone.

>Luke Cage
is still known as power man, his identity has just become public.

>>86702344
But if you have to openly admit it when the work is published then Ellis is just as guilty.

>>86702452
I thought that the argument would end after I met your chosen definition. Since it didn't, I'm going to bed.

Ellis never lied to us. But Morrison did lie to you, he lied to me, he lied to everyone. And Morrison never apologized for lying to us. He doesn't deserve the defense that you're putting up for him.

>>86702389
>Uncanny X Force was a proactive assassin team that stops major mutant threats before they even happen.

Sounds kinda similar to the plot of Stardust Crusaders to me.

>>86700640
I think all star superman was really weak when dealing with time travel but otherwise it was pretty good.

I particularly liked the bizaro stuff even if it was a little confusing in a few places.

>>86702517
I agree he's a liar, but he's not a plagiarist. You just want to use that term because you like the weight it carries and the damage it can do. If someone here's Morrison is a plagiarist, then they'll never want to read his work, regardless of how minuscule the """""plagiarism""""" makes up of it. Either everyone who ever has used a homage/pastiche/rip off is a plagiarist if they don't cite their work like a fucking term paper, or Morrison is not a plagiarist because he admitted it wasn't entirely his own character when asked about it. I don't know why he lied, I don't support his lying but I also don't support libel, even if it's on a Taiwanese zoetrope geocitie.

>>86702524
Dio was killing the MC's Mom/Daughter. Literally everyone involved had a personal stake based on something that had happened to them with the exception of Abdul who was doing it as a favor to Joseph, a close personal friend and Iggy who is a fucking dog.
>Pol
Family killed by Dio's minions
>Kakiyon
Manipulated by Dio

>>86702573
>here's
Christ I'm sleepy too
You're still a faggot though.

>>86702573
>Either everyone who ever has used a homage/pastiche/rip off is a plagiarist if they don't cite their work like a fucking term paper

See that's why I actually want to know the extent Morrison lifted from Moorcock's Cornelius upthread. And it bugs me because even when Googling it they don't really mention what it is specifically he lifted from.

What also bothers me is that in the last few years I've been realizing how many other people do swipes as well but don't mention it.

>>86702442
>Also Jonathan goes out of his way to save what that one kid? His wife when they become under attack from Dio?
>Speedwagon
>Erina (Who was a complete stranger at the time)
>Zeppeli
>Dio
>George joestar
>Baby lisa lisa
>honestly probably wouldn't go out of his way to save someone.
"Saving people" Is his job.
The series has enough conventions of western superheros to be considered an alternate take on the genre. (A less satirical one than boku no hero or one punch man.)

>>86702594
>Family killed by Dio's minions
His sister was killed by J. geil, he had no idea who the killer was or if he had any connection to dio.

>>86702666
>See that's why I actually want to know the extent Morrison lifted from Moorcock's Cornelius upthread.
I'm with you Satan, it pisses me off that this guy accuses other people of knowing nothing and not doing research but can't even point out what is actually lifted, just continues to parrot Moorcock's retarded opinion (objectively, since he thinks 100% of Morrison's work is plagiarized from him) and that Morrison admitted to "rip[ping it] off" as if this automatically makes it plagiarism.
The guy is a faggot that just wants to shit on Morrison.

>>86702732
Until that was explained to him and he agreed to join the Joestar quest (and wanted to kill J Geil). He also was manipulated by Dio

>>86702687
>Saving people" Is his job.
You're really gonna tell me Nick Fury would stop a mugging after walking out of a bar?

>>86702594
And no one in X-Force ever had a personal stake in killing the villains they go after?

The whole book was basically about the tangled fucking web that is Archangel and Apocalypse.

Also, even though they all had a personal beef with Dio and the inciting incident for the season was "Holy's Stand is killing her", the vast majority of the show is still them beating up or killing random stand-users who don't just work for Dio but are menaces to society as well, not to mention Dio spends the whole show until the end hiding in a dark room NOT taking over the world, so they are in fact pre-emptively stopping a supervillain.

>>86702913
>season
Thanks for playing animefag

>>86698009
This looks like a before and after shaving pic.

>>86702913
No one besides Warren really does. He drags them into his shit but that's not the motivation for the formation of the team, nor is it the motivation for going after apocalypse.

But they wouldn't even fight most of them if they didn't get attacked first. The entire comic is "AN ENEMY STAANDD IS ATTACKING". Dio wants them to come to him. His plan is literally that. They come to him, he kills the Joestar bloodline, then he takes over the world. They're not pre-empting shit, they're reacting to his plan

>>86701136
King Mob quite literally says he has an obsession with Jerry Cornelius in that story, if that doesn't qualify as an homage because Morrison was blacked out or too stoned to remember his inspiration when interviewed, I have no idea what to tell you.
The reference is in the goddamn print.

Do they worship KEK?

>>86703021
>the motivation for the formation of the team

X-Men writers come up with a lot of excuses for mutant-on-mutant violence. Doesn't make it not what it is. Outside of a few extremely brief periods from a nostalgia-motivated writer like Whedon attempting to restore them to behaving like heroes, the X-Men haven't concerned themselves with the greater good or the general public since...I'm gonna say the 90's. They pretty much only either defend themselves from threats or find excuses to have soap opera pissing matches with each other or dudes they've had ongoing beef with for decades.

Stand users fighting each other doesn't seem different to me.

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>>86701179
Alan Moore, at least according to Japan

>>86698686
They both have most of what they wanted though.

It's just that Hollywood is built entirely on Jewish magic, which neither Grant nor Allan can handle very well.

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>>86698009
Morrison's is stronger, but only by pure accident.
Morrison has discovered and basically studied meme magic years before /pol/ brought it into the mainstream, but he still sees it as basic Chaos Magik, he needs to learn more about memesmithing

>>86700404
Flex Mentallo is a book everyone should read.

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>>86700832
>>86701044
>By that logic Preacher is cape, Martha Washington is cape, Manifest Destiny is cape, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is cape
Now you begin to see...

>>86703667
Ultra Comics is a documentary about the result of too much memesmithing.

>>86698009
The one who's trying to bring a whole fictional universe into existence

>>86703910
>trying

>>86698009
where's all the morrison/moore slash fiction?

>>86703932
>fiction

>>86703667
There's no fucking difference between chaos magic and meme magic, you chode.

>>86704184
The only difference is what you name it.

>>86698009
Jack Kirby's

>>86704599
No, he wrote the first draft of meme magic, everyone that came after him only added to it.

Moore harnessed it, while Morrison weaponised it.

>>86698496
how can he be stop?

>>86700007
good post anon 10/10

>>86698215
yeah we are all ULTRA now.

>>86699755
dude, he lived in Glasgow and both of his parents where radical left wing activists, they weren't on the bread line but they where entirely working class (with in the British class system at least.)

>>86700404
I'd say read the invisibles

>>86700572
personally I think you wrong and thusly a bad human being, allstar supes is like a being warm comic book hug.

>>86708660
>everybody who lives in Glasgow is working class, no upper classes allowed
Huh?

>>86708740
not saying that, just saying its a super rough city nowadays and its gotten so much better over the decades.

>>86702666
He just ripped the arch type of the main character. That's all.

Here's a fucking good blog series that comparing both Moore and Morrison. Links are to the relevant bits between Morrison, Moorcock, and Ballard.

http://www.eruditorumpress.com/blog/mary-sticks-to-the-alleyways-where-the-light-and-noise-of-the-city-is-screened-out-a-little-the-last-war-in-albion-part-2-near-myths-jg-ballard-william-s-burroughs/

http://www.eruditorumpress.com/blog/this-dread-world-and-the-rolling-of-wheels-the-last-war-in-albion-part-3-william-s-burroughs-michael-moorcock/

http://www.eruditorumpress.com/blog/this-zen-crazed-aerial-madman-just-wont-take-no-for-an-answer-the-last-war-in-albion-part-4-michael-moorcock-luther-arkwright/

>>86708834
>super rough
Not for Morrison.

Let me describe life in the working class for you:
>"Mommy, daddy, I don't feel like getting a job."
>"Too bad, son. Our house, our rules. Go out and get a job now."

And here's life outside the working class:
>"Mommy, daddy, I don't feel like getting a job."
>"Okay son, not a problem. You just sleep all day and party all night. We'll pay for everything, you just keep being a NEET, whatever makes you happy."

Morrison lived the life of the latter.

>>86708740
in the 70s and 80s yeah, you were not going to find much in Glasgow beyond middle class. Even then Grant's parents clearly were not that. Dad was in an out of jail for protesting and worked in a factory. Not sure what Grant's mom did, she apparently split from Dad at some point. His parents were clearly on the dole as was he until he found a break.

>>86698009

Rasputin. He was poisoned, stabbed and drowned in a frozen lake but hes still walking around and doing just fine.

>>86709021
You forgot shot and beaten.

When the poison didn't work they shot him when he tried running out. They wrapped him in a carpet and when that started switching they beat the shit out of it before dumping it in the lake.

>>86709053
and castrated, they castrated him before they threw him in the river.

>>86708953
>His parents were clearly on the dole as was he
What do you mean by "clearly"? As in, Morrison actually said this, or you just suspect it?

>>86709114
Based off Morrison's dad being a factory worker, factory work crashing in the 70s, and him saying his parents were on welfare.

>>86709114
He has said that in interviews.

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>>86698009
not even a question

>>86709021
>>86709053
Poisoned is unlikely and I don't think there was toxicological analysis, but Rasputin being one of these Orthodox holy men followed a rather strict diet plus he didn't like pastries due to a variety of reasons. The beatings and bullets are verified. What is unverified is the fact that he was still walking when they shot him and tossed him in the water and is only attested to by the assassins who had very much an agenda to portray him as a supernatural agent that was having undue influence over the Czarina.

>>86709174
>>86709179
What did he actually say? I need details. I already see some people getting details wrong.

For example,
>>86708660
His father was the activist (a member of the Committee of 100), not the mother (who thought that the father did too much activism and didn't spend enough time at home).

>Morrison's parents split in the early 1970s after his father had an affair - "the fallout slowly blew the family apart". The divorce, and an unhappy, lonely experience at Allan Glen's, a school for boys to which he had won a scholarship, caused Morrison's teenage years to feel flat and bleak. Hit hard by a rejection from the Glasgow School of Art, he imagined a stale future on the dole.
Oh no, his imagination!

>"His father, however, came to the rescue, giving him a gift of a typewriter with a message taped inside the case: "Son - the world is waiting to hear from you."
Thanks dad, saved from working AND saved from the dole.

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>>86709378

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>>86709436

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>>86709465

>>86698315
Part time wizards, full time parents

>>86709330
it was on kevin smith batman podcast, I remember him saying he signed on for the first time at 16 and then spent it very unwisely.

>>86709330
Daddy's bio

https://libcom.org/history/morrison-walter-1924-2004

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2004/mar/27/guardianobituaries1

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>>86709501

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>>86709525

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>>86709551

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>>86709579

>>86709501
This one was actually funny.

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>>86709610

>>86709378
No Milligan in this always irritates me.

>>86708891
>He just ripped the arch type of the main character. That's all.

Is that really it? Cause all the "Morrison plagarized from Moorcock" accusations had led me to believe it was more than that. My instincts were telling me something was wrong when no one could provide a straight answer of comparisons.

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>>86709630

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>>86709668

>>86709514
What does it say about the dole?

Actually, that second link says that he left factory work in the sixties (not the seventies) and that he went back to stone-polishing (his own business that he ran himself).

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>>86709697

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>>86709719

>>86709666
Only bits I've been able to find on that dispute is the quote from Moorcock about him reading Morrison's work twice, Moore and Morrison's thoughts on that quote, and Morrison's acknowledgment of Moorcock as an influence.

If you compare Moorcock and Morrison's work the similarities are only found in the Gideon character from one of Morrison's first comics published that was later rebuilt for The Invisibles. But that's really it.

>>86709719
deatheaters for life

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>>86709747

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>>86709773

>>86698775
Alan's girlfreinds left him for eachother and took the kids.

>>86709666
>>86709751
The problem has never been that Stargrave was similar to Cornelius. Moorcock wanted people to use Cornelius, he was delighted by other people using Cornelius.

The problem was that Morrison denied the connection to Cornelius, and only admitted it decades later. And he never apologized for his deceit.

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>>86700572
>Not liking ASS
>Being this much of a pleb
KYS REEEEEEEEE!

>>86709699
It says his own business went bankrupt in 62. It doesn't say that his return to that work was him starting his own business again.

But when you place Walter's life in the context of the 60s and 70s you're putting him in a failing economy where all manual labor jobs are drying up and failing. You'll also notice that he retired in 74 when Morrison was 14. He clearly wasn't making any money or well off. The simplest answer then is he was on the dole.

>>86709854
>The problem has never been that Stargrave was similar to Cornelius. Moorcock wanted people to use Cornelius, he was delighted by other people using Cornelius.

>The problem was that Morrison denied the connection to Cornelius, and only admitted it decades later. And he never apologized for his deceit.

Really? Because upthread:

>>86700832
>Invisibles is plagiarism.

>>86709854
Morrison was admitting Mob and Stargrave were Cornelius knock offs in the 90s. He flat out stated it in the letters column of The Invisibles.

>>86709901
So you're saying that he found a job while you're also saying that there were no jobs?

The simplest answer is that he returned to his own business, that he made enough money to retire early, and that he made enough money to support Grant being a NEET. After all, he did retire early and Grant was a NEET. And Grant gave an interview to The Scotsman about how he managed to avoid the dole, so _somebody_ other than the government was paying for his NEEThood.

>>86709978
>in the 90s
That's what I mean by "decades later".

Gideon Stargrave was from the 70s, and Morrison was denying a connection to Jerry Cornelius until the 90s.

>>86710063
>and Morrison was denying a connection to Jerry Cornelius until the 90s.

When did he deny it during the 70's to 90's?

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>that time Grant Morrison talked about conjuring his ideal waifu into reality

this dude is fucking wild

>>86710077
Read the thread. Here's a quote from 1988:
>"Stargrave was originally based on the lead character in J. G. Ballard's 'The Day Of Forever'; everyone thought he was ripped off from Jerry Cornelius, but it was Ballard."
He denied it for years.

If you check out the links in >>86708891, they go into detail about what a blatant lie that was, since The Day of Forever bears almost zero connection to what Morrison was doing.

>>86710029
No dumb ass! Jesus Christ are you really this fucking retarded?

Morrison's dad was in and out of work constantly. He was an activist first, worker second. His activism created huge problems in his personal and work life ultimately leading to the end of his marriage and his firing from work. He tried to open a business but failed and was forced to go back to hired work. He retired for medical reasons.

Now from the fucking 21st century you seem to want to believe every society lives in for all entirety your BS rational might make sense. But this wasn't 21st century American but the 1960s-70s UK.

During this period Glasgow's economy was shit but fortunately the UK was generous with its handouts and was able to support the out of workers.

Morrison's schooling was through a scholarship, his parents didn't have to pay a dime for it. The UK also had a rather decent health care system up until the 80s which made his dad's retirement a bit easier. But none of this means his family was well off only surviving.

And if you fucking read the god damn interview you'd have notice Morrison said his escape from the dole was because he went to work writing and drawing his own shit. He wasn't lined up for being able to just live at home and not worry but either had to start making his own money or live off the government.

>>86709664
He never amounted to anything.

>>86710245
>His activism created huge problems in his personal and work life ultimately leading to the end of his marriage
His extramarital affair led to the end of his marriage.

>He tried to open a business but failed and was forced to go back to hired work.
Then, in the sixties, he left the hired work and went back to his business.

>Morrison's schooling was through a scholarship, his parents didn't have to pay a dime for it.
Then Morrison finished his secondary education, and he spent several years laying about the house, doing nothing (but not on the dole).

>And if you fucking read the god damn interview you'd have notice Morrison said his escape from the dole was because he went to work writing and drawing his own shit.
Then Morrison quit comics for several years (until Marvelman inspired him to come back) and he spent several years laying about the house, doing nothing (but not on the dole).

>>86710539
> His extramarital affair led to the end of his marriage.
Along with the strain of never being home and out protesting.

> he left the hired work and went back to his business.
It's never said if he owned the company he ended up retiring from.

> he spent several years laying about the house, doing nothing (but not on the dole).
Morrison was publishing work by 1978 (when he was 18) and has been releasing work ever since. He made his first dime in his teens made it big when he was 29.

> Then Morrison quit comics for several years
Citation fucking needed. There is never a break of any kind between 1978 and now to where Morrison was not writing something. To say nothing of his attempt at starting a band and playing gigs in bars. The man was always working.

Stop projecting your own failure on him.

>>86698576
you should read Moore's Top Ten if you want to see Moore work in a larger universe.

>>86698686
Morrison is a multi millionaire (Moore likely is too).

>>86703706
DUDE EVERYTHING IS SUPERHEROS
Are you retarded?

>>86708943
>>86710029
But Morrison was a professional writer by the time he was 18. Was it enough money for him to live on his own? No, but I doubt it was a "parent's paying for everything" situation. Not paying for housing means you have very little left to pay for, if you're in good health. Calling him a NEET is extremely inaccurate. Even by the early 80s he was selling scripts to Warrior.

>>86712454
I own Top 10 and love it. That's his own self contained universe though.

>>86698009
If you appreciate both you will achieve Ultra Hypercrisis.

>>86713346
But I do and I didn't

He killed a politician, cured his cat's cancer and gave himself a bacteria in the cheek via mememagic.

What has Moore done besides good comics?

>>86716431
>killed a politician
Whut

>>86717328
In Zenith, a politician called John Smith dies of a heart attack because of a psychic attack. After that, in real life, the same politician died of a heart attack.

>>86717898
Oh shit I never knew about the real guy dying
Zenith is underrated

any cunt could do it

>>86709190
we need more fanart of Moore vs Morrison in wizard attire

Shit, where are those pics we did for The Outrageous Adventures of Ellis and Gaiman years ago?