Do /co/ still loves Cass Cain Batgirl? She always will be my waifu.

>>86052916
cass is fine but cassfags need to jump off a cliff

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>>86053138
B-but I'm a cassfag!

>>86052916
I don't waifu her because I'm not a faggot but Cass was clearly the best Batgirl, much better than Babs or Steph.

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Superboy belongs with cass.

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>>86052916

Yes, we still do.

>>86052916
I call bullshit. Cass can't write.

So I heard she came back recently but they kinda fucked up her and David Caine's story by tying them to some shitty new villain. Have they appeared at all since then?

>>86053532
How do you know someone else didn't write it and she's not just asking the viewer to read it to her.

>>86053138
Basically this, they're worse than Babs and Stephfags combined.

>>86053569
She's one of the main characters of 'Tec atm. And is getting an arc focused on her after this one and the next one finishes.

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>>86053569

She's in Detective Comics. Her father is now discount Storm Shadow.

>>86053603
Is it any good?

>>86053775

It's surprisingly entertaining.

>>86053775
Yeah it's alright.
I hope they keep the team together for a while, it's been pretty decent so far.

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Best character in Tec is Clayface.

>>86053939
I'm honestly considering picking Tec up just for my man Clayface over here.

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>>86054000

It's worth it. Clayface will be getting the co-lead with Stephanie in the next arc after the Monster Men crossover.

I hope that when Cassandra gets her arc that they bring back Marcio Takara for it. It's almost amusing how almost any artist that has drawn Cassandra also eventually draws Laura.

>>86053840

I want to give this a try. What issue should I start with to read some decent Cass stories?

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>>86055241

Cass has little moments through each issue. She's getting a central arc after the Stephanie/Clayface one that starts in November.

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But if you want a definitive reading list.

>>86053138
>>86053603
>Basically this, they're worse than Babs and Stephfags combined.
Why exactly?

That is not how you spell Stephaine Brown. ;)

I only know Cass from the One Year Later storyline where she came off as a huge bitch.

I didn't really like her. Kinda glad they erased her from existence with the Nu52.

>>86059273
That was character assassination, 180 degrees to all her other characterization, behavior, and capabilities.

Your post honestly looks like trolling, it's so focused on such a singularly unrepresentative period of the character. But...I know that there are doubtless people whose only exposure to her was said character assassination.

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>>86056768
>Why exactly?

Because we had the audacity to post her occasionally and start a thread for her. Just do yourself a favor and ignore that cunt.

Cassfags are good people and are happy to help people read her stories. Hell stick around Im sure some one will share a link to her books in enough time

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>>86059487

Don't tempt me.

>>86053630
Every cool thing that Cass has done in TEC happens off-screen. I'm starting to think that Tynian is trying to give Cassfags blue balls until her arc.

>>86061656
>Reading the first line of a book
>Is in the middle of the book

She just knows what the famous opening is and is trying to convince herself that she can see it. She's just playing make-believe that she has a normal brain. This panel is so sad.

>>86061781
the book could just have a lengthy foreword. some copies of the classics have a whole bloody essay about the book before you reach chapter 1

>>86052916
Cass will always be number one with Supes a close second

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>>86052916
Her bastardization is actually part of why I dont read comics anymore.
The other reason is that I cant become invested anymore when everything is reset 2-3 years down the line.

I miss Cass Batgirl a lot.....

>>86062301
I think a lot of the reason Cassfags exist is that Cassandra exists as kind of a symbol of editorial/political/brand synergy bullshit messing up a story. Staying a fan of Cass is like an act of defiance against bullshit editorial pushes.

>>86062381
Well that and most of her series was REALLY fucking good, I still have every issue of Silent Running Volume 1 and it was money well spent.

>>86052916
Circa Puckett and Scott, yeah. Her later run was shit, and I can't stand Tynion's work with her. So I'd rather remember her fondly the way I do Matrix Supergirl and Conner Superboy. Things to pure for the dumbasses currently working in comics.

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>>86053460
Bite your tongue Damien

>>86053569
They fuck her over by making her one of Batlesbian's lackeys. Cass went from wrecking everyone (except Jason Todd for some reason) to being Worf.

>>86054115
Its REALLY not. Just hold out until Tynion leaves like with Talon. Then maybe we can get tim Seeley!

>>86055842
Put Solo at the end, it has the crisis cass/tim's definitive end.

>>86062381
>>86062465
Her first 50 or so issues were good. The final 20 or thirty written by that faggot behind War Games was shit.

>>86055842

Isn't a Young Justice arc with her?

>>86063451
Like two issues, yeah. It's . . . okay.

>>86063421
Hence most and not all.
I would love to say all of her stuff was great but sadly it really wasnt

>>86063477
More like around half. But c'mon. She's worse than being a Mets fan. All you are in for is suffering.

>>86063477
Fresh Blood was good. So was the opening two arcs involving the Brotherhood and Slade/Rose. It's just the run fell off the rails when Destruction's Daughter arc began.

>>86061781

You know the words "it was" come up fairly often, right?

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>>86052916

Cass Batgirl makes me think of Ladybug, both are White/Chinese mutts in tight clothes.

>>86068039
Does that make Tim Cat Noir?

>>86053775
No Azrael, but so far more entertaining the Batman.

>>86052916
prolly my fave Batgirl

>>86068039

Technically, I don't think we know Shiva's ethnicity.

>>86063458
>so pregnible

It was pretty good, anon.

>>86068039
The big question is: is New 52/Rebirth Cass still half white, since David Cain is now Chinese? If Shiva's still her mom, then she's full Asian now.

>>86059209
But most of /co/ hates Steph, or at least, they are more vocal about it

I like her tho

>>86072668
I liked her when she was a supporting character in Robin.

>>86072561
Depends on her mother.I'm guessing full Asian.

>>86072384
That was from an issue of Superboy she guest starred in.

>>86072955
Does it matter?

>>86073156
Not to me.

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I hate the name Orphan and I wish they would put bat ears onto her mask, but at least Cass is being written well in Detective Comics.

>>86072561

Is Cain full Chinese? Maybe he's half-asian?

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>>86071927
That is one top-heavy Cass.

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>>86073249
Yeah, the name and costume really need to change, but they are probably Tynion's ideas, so we just have to wait him out.

>>86073249

If DC gives Cassandra another ongoing, it cannot be Batgirl given the momentum is full-on for Barbara to have that. They cannot use Black Bat either because that name is copyrighted.

So for now I understand the necessity of why Cassandra is Orphan. However, they just had Jim Gordon wear outfit with a Cass-like symbol. If Gordon ain't using that costume give it to Cassandra but full-on mask.

>>86073919
How about Flamebird was a name?

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>>86074264
That isn't a terrible idea since Bette gave up the name to have some terrible costume and codename. Some of JWIII's worst design work.

>>86074405

Hmm it's a possibility, but black and yellow seem to be Cassandra's colors.

>>86075406

>Loves Cass
>Hates Rich Rider

Gunn you confuse me

>>86056768
Cassandra Cain fans literally cared about Cassandra Cain and only her, ever. She was their goddess and waifu, and whenever she wasn't on screen there was constant bitching that everybody should be asking "where's Poochie?" They hated every other Bat-character and constantly boasted about how she was better than all of them, except that she couldn't read which made her adorably vulnerable but eventually didn't matter in the slightest. They couldn't decide if Cassandra was Bruce Wayne's favorite child or if he wanted to fuck her, they hated the shit out of Barbara Gordon and Stephanie (until Steph stopped being Batgirl at which point they pulled a 180 and both characters were goddesses who were being persecuted by DC.) The constant victim complex wasn't helped by legitimate fuckups by DC with Beechen's writing, but they absolutely would never shut the fuck up about how their perfect waifu, the only thing that ever mattered at DC, was constantly mistreated and needed to be saved by their loving caress.

But then Cass was ignored for years and most people either moved on or simply left comics so we don't have to hear about them anymore. So it's hard to understand how bad they used to be. I guess if you've ever heard about HEAT, you can consider them similar.

>>86075556
> you've ever heard about HEAT, you can consider them similar.

Um no. I don't think anyone ever sent death threats to Adam Beechen or Didio, didn't proclaim, "WE WON!" When she got turned into a babyface or returned in B&RE.

Maybe not the right thread, but is Harper dead yet?

>>86076053

No. She'll be showing in Tec soon in the Stephanie/Clayface arc.

>>86075556
What sort of delusional fantasy world do you live in, anon?

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>>86076053
>>86076223
And before Azrael.;-;

>>86075406 >>86075505
Cass is his waifu. I remember when he did that whole comic character fuck list and it was all crass jokes like "X seems like the girl you introduce to your mom then do'er up the butt" and "I'd make Batwoman straight" and then he got to Cass and was like "With the right artist she's one of the most beautiful women in comics"

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>>86062301

It was certainly a large contributor for me as well though I still read a lot of non big two.

It's just really hard to care about these books when it's gonna be all for not as soon as some writer wants to push his waifu instead.

And Im not asking the universe cater to mine and solely mine but I shouldn't lose a book I like that's selling because of bullshit editorial reasons


>>86073919
>So for now I understand the necessity of why Cassandra is Orphan.

You know if it was just the new name I really wouldn't so much

>>86076278
/co/ just a couple years ago. Hell, a single year ago even.

>>86072561
David Cain is Chinese?

>>86077183
People of Multiethnic descent are tragically underrepresented in this medium. Stop the erasure now!

>>86077118
Dude, I was there. What you're describing is several yards beyond what went down. Hell, with some of the claims you're lucky to even be in the same ballpark.

>>86077183
In B&RE, he mentions growing up on the streets of Shanghai and doesn't look white when some of the artists draw him, so I assume so.

DC needs to kill Batkikelesbian, Harper Row, the black lark and gave Cass her own book.

>>86077299

I think Tynion IV confirmed he was a minority in this new universe too.

>>86052916
>coolest batgirl design
>also qt asian

There was never a chance that she wouldnt be my favorite

>>86076053
No, she went back to her college planet.

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>>86080215

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>>86076358
>then he got to Cass and was like "With the right artist she's one of the most beautiful women in comics"
Too bad the chances of a Cass Cain movie, as Batgirl or otherwise, are insignificant. It would be interesting to see if a true believer could make a good movie about his waifu.

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>>86082321
>DC steals away Gunn by promising him Cass
Do it DC

>>86082514

>Cass Cain kung fu movie

I can only get so erect

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>>86082514
That would be the biggest troll move ever and I would applaud with tears in my eyes.

DC would balk about making a movie about the Batgirl who isn't "iconic", but WB shouldn't give a fuck.

>>86082792
WB would probably be in the same boat as DC but for different reasons. DC seems to have a hateon for non-Babs Batgirls. WB would definitely see the merit in having Batgirl being the most popular well known Batgirl who is Barbra. Harley might prove the legs that the cartoons still have with normies, not to mention Batwest.

>>86082850

I think they can do more with Cain as far as movies go. Hell you can even keep the Batgirl twist for a post credits stinger and have Batman or Oracle show up with a costume all Nick Fury

>>86083342
What if we have Babsgirl....but she's crippled. Meanwhile Cass is in a different movie and they pull a Stinger where she's given the Gimpsuit.

>>86075556
Jasonfags and Timfags are the same way

>>86075556
>>86077118
But... That's Stephfags. I'm not even being facetious, you're literally describing Stephfags. As far as I know, no Cassfag as mailed waffles to the DC offices.

>>86083451
http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?82035-Major-possible-Tim-Drake-SPOILERS&p=2280415

>>86083396

They can't put out a cover where the heroine is fake peril they're not gonna cripple her in her own movie.

The best bet is to have Oracle already established with maybe killing joke flash backs

>>86083535
People that bitch about cassfags tend to project a hell of a lot.

It's not Cass's fault or her fans fault that Babsgirl is a selfie taking womanchild or that Steph was pants on head retarded enough to cause War Games.

>>86084813

And being honest a lot of the time legacy hero fans really do have reason to bitch. And this really is one of those times times. Between her book getting fucked by editorial, One Year Later, the reboot and now this Harper Row garbage you'd be an idiot not to complain

>>86084813
>Selfie Taking Womanchild

I would contest this but there really isnt any other way to describe how she is portrayed.

>>86082321
>Too bad the chances of a Cass Cain movie, as Batgirl or otherwise, are insignificant.
Wouldn't be too hard, just remind the right people of chinese audiences tendency to see movies that star chinese actors and that there was an asian Batgirl.

After that, let synergy take its course.

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>>86053603
>Basically this, they're worse than Babs and Stephfags combined.

Yeah, no, that's wrong. Stephfags are some of the biggest retards in the DC fandom and Babsfags are just MUH SILVER AGE

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>>86086151
>playing into Demographic mumbojumbo
Genius, we could get Cass played by some up and coming darling, and tell the Executives it's to appeal to Chinese markets. And she doesn't even need to speak english because Cass is mute when she first appears, she could literally have the worst English for the two lines she says and it wouldn't detract from her character at all. You my friend have a future in Hollywood.

>>86086324
Problem solved

Cass Cain Batgil would work week with the darker Batffleck of the DCEU.

>>86086533
No because they'd have her killing guys, which.......do we even need to get into how anti-cass that is?

>>86086569
>Batgirl teaches Bruce the value of life, so he vows to stop killing people

You know they'd do it.

>>86086593
This implies snyder would ever care about being accurate to a character

>>86086651

Directed by Batffleck and not the Devil Snyder.

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>>86052916
i love her but i love barbara more.

>>86086684
Babs is better in a wheelchair.

>>86075556
>or if he wanted to fuck her
nah. barbs the only batgirl who can fuck batman.

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>>86086720
Not entirely true.

>>86086771
Eh a crush is one thing, but I highly doubt Bruce saw Cass specifically as anything other than a daughter.

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>>86086806
Oh, Bruce never reciprocated like that, but Cass definitely had some confusing-growing-up feelings.

>>86086771
it's just a childish crush but unlike babs, she'll never get into bruce's pants but we'll see.

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>>86086916
>unlike babs, she'll never get into bruce's pants
That only happened in 2 unrelated, out of continuity comics.

I miss Batdad, especially since Damian shipped out to make his fortune.

>>86087022
Batdad is honestly when I like batman the most, it especially fits in his older incarnations, I just like the idea that even if he'll never have what could be described as a fulfilling love life he has an entire family to continue his work when he's gone that just keeps growing.

>>86082321
>She's a maniac! Maaaniac on the floor!

>>86086651
Affleck and Johns are gaining more power every day over Synder.

>>86068453
don't be disgusting

>>86088420
Do Johns care about Cass?

>>86088443
So Stephanie then?

>>86086720
No one fucks Batman

>>86053227
Be that as it may...

Why is it I find Cass so much more believably badass than any of the other bat females? Is it because of her autism?

>>86089348
No it's because of YOUR autism, and the fact that she's your comic book waifu.

>>86089348
She didn't speak or write, she was supposed to be pure action, like Snake Eyes or other fictional ninjas.

>>86089486
When Steph licks her pussy, does Cass use sign language to cry out in orgasm?

>>86089927
Suddenly /u/

>>86063377
What are you talking about? In 'Tec they keep mentioning how she's basically the strongest fighter in existence and the climax of the group's escape had her being cornered by a shitload of guys only to take all of them out with seemingly little problem (off panel but yeah) as well as take out ANOTHER bunch of guys when she got ambushed before having to be shot with a fuckload of tranqs to take her down.

If anything, Tynion's actually doing a good job of rehabbing her right now. Her new costume's kind of shit but she's portrayed more or less the way she should be. Second best character in the book so far after Clayface.

>>86089927
She learned how to speak eventually

>>86053939
I'm really hoping they don't give in to any kind of allure to make him a villain (use one of the other Clayfaces for that). I like him as basically B:TAS Hagen if Batman was able to get through to him.

>>86070550
Azrael's in the book though. He gets beat down in the first issue and is visited in convalescence later. I'm going to assume that in a few arcs he's going to be fully recovered and either join up or be a frequent ally. It seems pointless to bring Jean-Paul back in the book focused specifically on Team Batman and not actually give him some kind of a decent role otherwise.

>>86090172
I want Batwoman to die a brutal death, shoaed out of existence.

>>86090235
BTAS had the best version of all the villains.

>>86090235

Given there was what six different Clayfaces? With Karlo using Hagen as his alias. There's still a ton of different Clayfaces.

Hell, they could go with the Gotham Academy path were Clayface's left behind clay breaks off from the main mold and pursues a criminal path while there's a heroic one.

>>86052916
Steph is my very fave, but Cass is great, and I'm thrilled that they're both in Tec.

>>86053460
Best at fighting, sure. There are more ways to be best than just fighting.

>>86053569
Well, I liked Batman and Robin Eternal, so I disagree that they screwed up her story. Cain was a bit less of a threat - some kind of brainwashed ninja dude, but he still had a complicated abuse/love relationship with her, and she still rejected murder after her first and only kill.

>>86053775
OH YEAH! It's my favorite title at the moment - just super fun, with lots of great character moments and really solid art.

>>86054115
Takara is on a single issue of Nightwing in November. It's possible he'll do something on Tec, but I think unlikely, as Martinez and Barrows seem to have a good rhythm going. But that issue of Batman and Robin Eternal is amazing - visually and writing is just top notch.

>>86055025
Cry every time.

>>86059209
Huh?

>>86062381
Sounds like why I'm a Steph fan. :)

>>86062465
I have to sadly admit, when I read all of Cass's series in a binge last year, I didn't enjoy it that much. Cass is a great character, but Puckett and Petersen really love writing stories where she can't win. But that's definitely part of her being such a close character to Bruce, so that definitely explains 1) why she's so faved by people who love Batman, 2) why she got her own Batcave.

>>86063377
Um, no, she's not being used like Worf at all.

>>86063390
It's totally worth it. Tynion is doing good work, though admittedly not perfect.

>>86063414
Not to mention Cass training Steph to be Robin the way Batman SHOULD have.

>>86063421
Gabrych sucks. I wanted so much to like the whole "who is my mother" arc, but it was so emotionally limp.

>>86072668
They do? I mean, there seems to be one or two people who have a Pavlovian reaction of idiocy whenever she's mentioned, but there's also generally people who post great stuff for her.

>>86073919
Black Bat is copyrighted? By who?

>>86093106

Dynamite owns the rights to a pulp hero of the same name.

>>86093106
>Not to mention Cass training Steph to be Robin the way Batman SHOULD have.
by fucking her?

Is Cass still the daughter of Lady Shiva? David Cain is no longer connected to the League of Assassins.

>>86093229
Ah, thanks!

>>86075556
I've seen this behavior from all kinds of fans. Cass fans do tend to annoy me a lot more as a Steph fan, because of their constant "If you like a blonde white girl more than an Asian girl you are RACIST," but eh.

>>86077367
Can't tell if troll, but thanks for proving the above poster correct.

>>86083535
I don't see how that isn't all fandoms. There's always going to be the people who are complete jerks about everything, including their favorite characters.

>>86089318
What's wrong with Selina? I like that ship (when it's not written by Loeb ;)

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>>86093396
Nope.

Are people still pretending that Steph was anything other than a parasite that dragged the Batfamily down?

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>>86094045
Hello, Gabrych/Didio.

>>86094061
So you gonna do the other Cass story from that?

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Well you can't do a Solo #10 storytime and not do the other story that features Cass.

I disagree with Gabrych hating Stephanie. I believe that's more Willingham and whomever the editor was at the time. Gabrych was just the able-body one who went along with it.

But at least Stephanie was still a fixture in Cassandra's life, and really the only one who was effected by her death.

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Also this story is probably most to blame for the "closeness" of Cass/Tim in the Batman Inc days.

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Still a funky comic.

>>86095385
Go for it! I'm not as big a fan of the second Cass story from that Solo issue, which is why I didn't post it.

The issue of "blame" for War Games and in particular Steph's treatment during it is hard to determine for me. Willingham wrote all of the torture, and it was nasty, but he also said that it was a mandate from the editors to kill her, and that he wanted to keep her in the tights, as sales and the story were good. Gabrych has never repudiated or expressed regret over the War Games crossover, and in the many, many issues he wrote after that story ended, both for Batgirl and in Detective Comics, he had character after character blame Steph for her own torture and death.

Gabrych is also in my Steph-loving bad books because when he wrote the "Riot Girls" issue of Batgirl, he wrote Cass as tacitly approving of Batman's marginalization and jerk behavior to Steph. Cass is clearly not happy about it, but instead of standing up for Steph's training, she turns her back.

>>86095787

Alright I'm just gonna ask the question. We know where Puckett finally went. Last I heard about Gabrych was he went into the gay film industry. Is he still in that?

It's almost weird that every single writer of Cass's ongoing left the industry for the most part (Horrocks went out of country to do indie comic work).

>>86095484
>>86095552
Writer can suck a fat shit. Looks like they were firing at him while retreating to me. Not just running away.

>>86096024
Well, most of the talent from the late 90s is out of the industry, at least the Big Two industry. Gabrych's wiki page says he does comedy in clubs.

Where did Puckett end up?

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>>86089348
>Why is it I find Cass so much more believably badass than any of the other bat females?

Because she's the only who actually trained worth a damn and has the scars to show it.

Not trying to start shit but Babs was just someone with decent gymnastic skills who put on a Halloween costume and Step is Steph.

Cass meanwhile was raised by David fucking Cain

>>86086059
Fun little anecdote. I save a lot of comic book art and fan art in order to have pose references for drawfagging?

Cassandra Cain Batgirl? It's all martial arts and dynamic action poses. CamStew Babs? The overwhelming majority of the pictures I found of her involved a cell phone.

>>86089348
Because she was trained literally from birth, is covered in scars, has the actual most practical costume, and in general her whole gimmick was being hyper competent in combat.

Cass is the only Batgirl that, from second one, has the whole "we need to train like crazy to keep up with metahuman capes" legitimacy that most of the dudes in the Bat Family have.

>>86096753
Believably badass? Absolutely. Believably an awesome character who wants to make connections and isn't a sociopath after her upbringing? Not really.

I love it in the same way I love Charles Dickens' heroines - but it's just as implausible as Batman's ability to be the best at everything on 2 hours of sleep a night.

>>86096778
Yeah. Something I really liked about Claire Roe's first issue of Birds of Prey is that it starts with Babs kicking the butts of a group of thugs, then taking their cell phone. At first, I was afraid of more selfieBabs, but it was actually her being a detective, checking history.

And it's so much better than Tarr's one-body-type, one-face, waif-thin ridiculously bad fight scenes (and fill in artists - heck, I thought Eleonora Carlini's fill in for the last five issues of Batgirl blew all of Tarr's stuff out of the water).

>>86096913
To be fair, Babs was before most of that, and as Oracle, we see her training a lot. And Steph seeks out training like crazy, but she keeps getting ditched (because of writers being fired or leaving).

>>86096957
>but it's just as implausible as Batman's ability to be the best at everything on 2 hours of sleep a night.

Yeah but she's only super competent at that ONE thing

and her motivations are more than justifiable given what was established about her skill set.

She was trained to read people's bodies like we read a book. When she killed someone she saw death in a way that normal people can't really understand and it messed her up so she bolted from her dad and developed a sense of guilt over what she did. It all adds up just fine.

>>86096998

See the problem I have with Babs isn't really one of training so much but it's just, she's Jim's daughter for fuck's sake. She's not really broken like he is and I really have a hard time see Batman just allowing one of his only friends daughter expose herself to such danger regularly. She's not broken like he is, like Cass is.

Babs would probably eventually become a cop and a damn fine one too Id wager but when we've seen how strict Bruce is about who he lets patrol the streets it's really mind bogglings as to why Babs gets a pass

>>86097066
It adds up fine if you ignore the fact that humans don't work that way. But it's a fun concept, so I go with it. I just don't have illusions that it's "realistic".

>>86097222

well yes in that sense I agree, it's "unrealistic" but in context of the books it's believable is my point

>>86097216
I have to preface this by acknowledging that I've never actually read the pre-Crisis Batgirl stuff - but I am under the impression that before the Crisis (when I think most of Babs's stuff happened?), Batman's threats weren't as dark and deadly. We see the difference in the way Jason was trained and the way Tim was trained as well, I think.

>>86097271
If you are okay with Batman as a concept, then yes, you should be okay with Cass as a concept - and I am.

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>>86052916

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>>86097336

>>86096716

Works in the video game/computer industry now.

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>>86097360

>>86097278

Well my point does apply to a few of the Robins as well, Ill admit that much right out. But the big issue is him placing his friends daughter in danger. That's just not very Batman.

It's an issue of motivation. Why does Batman do what he does? To prevent people from experiencing the pain he did. Why does Cass do it? To make up for her own sense of guilt and to provide a sense of vindication for her own existence.

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>>86097379

>>86096716
No one knows probably, because Puckett is a recluse who pretty much wants to just be left alone when he isn't writing comics.

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>>86097416

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>>86097443

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I wish they got to be a thing for real

>>86097437

We found out in one Cass thread a few months ago via his linkd account. Dude is in the computer/video game business now.

Oh to know more or talk to the guy about stuff.

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>>86097362
Ah, thanks!

>>86097384
Batman didn't place her in danger - she chose it. Batman isn't the God of Gotham, he's just the protector - he can't forbid and enforce that someone stop (see also: Steph) unless he starts patrolling for heros instead of villains (which would be stupid).

But seriously, dude, it is really dumb to say that only those who have experienced tragedy can be motivated to be heroes. I dislike Mark Waid, but the smackdown he wrote for Daredevil to Female Punisher To Be in Daredevil #11 says it well.

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>>86097969
>Batman didn't place her in danger - she chose it.

If I found out my best friends daughter was doing something dangerous Id at least tell her pop. She may have chosen it but he doesn't have to egg her on so much.

>But seriously, dude, it is really dumb to say that only those who have experienced tragedy can be motivated to be heroes.

eh, I agree but you also have to realize that she's putting herself in real danger for zero motivation. Like I said before she'd probably make a damn fine cop. But she has no reason to be a super hero.

This isn't some shit like Mayday Parker who found out she had super powers and put them to good use.

She doesn't need a tragic motivation, you're right, you're absolutely right but she does need A motivation to dress up in a costume. What makes her want to be Batgirl instead of just a cop.

>>86093106
>I have to sadly admit, when I read all of Cass's series in a binge last year, I didn't enjoy it that much. Cass is a great character, but Puckett and Petersen really love writing stories where she can't win.

But that's the best part. Take away Cass's constant Pyrrhic victories and she's just a cute mute giving the boot to brutes, and while that's fun for a while, it's not built to last - or to be remembered.

I've often said that Cass has a lot of Mary Sue-ish traits, but her series never dipped into that because it always focused on her weaknesses rather than her strengths. That's why I've been apprehensive into looking into New52 Cass so far; if she's just a cute mute that can beat up everyone, then that robs her of a lot of what made her great.

>>86098201

How do we challenge an invincible hero?

You attack the heart

>>86098201

The issue where some telepath "fixes" her brain and make her lose her abilities was extremely dumb, it's like they're fucking their own character.

>>86099392

eeeeeeeeeh, I don't disagree but it would be really hard to make a ongoing about a mute

>>86099392
I think Puckett just realized how hard it was to write stories with a main character that doesn't speak or understand speech.

That is the one good thing about rebooted Cass: they've said they're not going to do that, so maybe her speech can come about more organically.

>>86098091
>What makes her want to be Batgirl instead of just a cop.
Cops were mostly corrupted in Gotham back then when she did start being Batgirl, and not really effective. Also, she was too young to enroll in Police Academy(IIRC)


Babs was Batgirl back when it wasn't TOO dangerous being an unpowered masked vigilante and she DID leave the cape behind herself.

Her return to being Batgirl is one of the greatest character regression ever.

>>86100185
>I think Puckett just realized how hard it was to write stories with a main character that doesn't speak or understand speech.
it was ALSO caused by a lot of complains about issues being too fast read.

IIRC it was King who did write about using Dialogues to slow down the narrative... pre-speak Cass lacked them.

>>86053460

The way i see it though, the best setting DC ever had was when Stephanie was Batgirl.

Here's why:

Stephanie resembled a lot of the young Barbara as Batgirl.
Some Barbara fans wanted Babs back as Batgirl, but others strongly felt like she outgrew that role and was much stronger as Oracle.
Having a Babs-like Batgirl but with Oracle as her mentor was the best solution there, IMHO.

As for Cass, i always sorta felt she would be better off with a more unique moniker instead of carrying a legacy title like Batgirl.

>>86101568

well I see that as a big problem. Cass can rock a different moniker but she also turned Batgirl into a respectable name and wasn't just a modern version of the old one. She was her own character and Steph shouldn't just be Babs 2.0

>>86101718

Idk, i guess that's a valid opinion. I just really liked the setting of Oracle and Stephanie. It had a sort of Batgirl Beyond vibe where Babs was the Batgirl equivalent of Beyond's old Bruce and Steph was Terry.

Right now Hope Larson's Babs/Batgirl is a stronger Batgirl title than the book has been since the new 52, so i'm ok with that. Though i really liked the Steph run more.

>>86101812
the problem with Steph-Girl was the character derailment of Steph: she was supposed to be a loser.

The best combination would have been Steph as Batgirl+Cass as Whatever with Babs as Oracle(with the recurring appearance of Tim, the boytoy wonder), as Cass's and Steph's would cover each other's weakpoints both in-story and as characters

>>86101312

I don't know which one regressed worse: Tim or her. I want to say her because she still has an ongoing and three spotty attempts.

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>>86097577
They were super cute together.

>>86102195
Tim is LITERALLY a different character.

So technically one cannot technically say he regressed.

>>86101812

They where already doing that fine with Babs and Cass though and Cass actually benefited more form Bab's guidance

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>>86101980
>Tim, the boytoy wonder

That he is. Nothing but a toy to the two of them.

>>86100185
it's also a lot easier to write a book about a relateable white college girl than one about an asian teen with a learning disability raised by assassins

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>>86102350
I really liked the arguments that Babs and Bruce used to have in Cass' comic.

>>86102593
> mom & dad fighting again.

>>86102593
Cass got two dads, a mom, a best friend with benefits and the opportunity to share Tim with said friend.

Life was good.


A question, though: did Alfred ever elaborated what he thought of Cass and Cain's father-daughter relationship?

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>>86102781

I don't recall Alfred saying much of Cain

He did give Bruce shit about her though

>>86102824
>He did give Bruce shit about her though
who didn't?

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>>86102869

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>>86102949

>>86102949
>>86102961

Ive mentioned it before but one idea for a short comic I want to see is Alfred teaching Cass to read. A bit into the lesson he notices the time and feels they've earned a break and ask's if Cass would like some tea. As he heads down into the kitchen she sneaks out the window and heads out the gates to go do some super heroing only to find Alfred one step ahead of her and he calmy drags her by the cap back inside asking what kind of cake she'd like with her tea

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>>86103051
>Young Lady, I have a sixth sense for this sort of thing and years of experience.

>>86103824
Cass doesn't need hand weapons.
She just needs batarangs and such for ranged attacks(though she can outrun hero own batarangs...)

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>>86103885
Swords make things faster, though she uses them like Wolverine's claws in most cartoons: never on people.

>>86103918
>>86103824

I hate when they give her katanas. She's CHINESE

>>86103918
I don't quite agree: while some Item of Destruction might be useful, swords would be quite useless to her most of the time.
A dagger or knife might work, though.

>>86103968
She's half-american(David) and half-american(Shiva)

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>>86103968
It isn't like Cass had any idea of her ethnicity, especially since David Cain was white.

Besides, katana are much more common for Cass to run across in comic book fights than a jian.

>>86103968
Do they call them that? Maybe it's just easier to get quality katanas in the weapons market, than it is other quality assassin-y blades.

>>86104061

Id just like to see more variety is all. Asia's a big fucking place and they have more than anime shit for weapons

>>86101980
Not that anon but I wouldn't say derailment, I would say progression.

She sucked as Spoiler/Robin, Babs gave her another shot, and she seized that opportunity becoming competent.

It's the same with current Damian: he's more childish now because he has time to act his age and not be an edgelord, plus the fact that he sees his father more as Bruce and less as Batman now.

Most people give shit to Steph because she was useless and annoying in Robin, so it was for the better that she had that change.

>>86104204
>and she seized that opportunity becoming competent.

she wasn't that competent. In fact Id argue she was even worse.

>>86103242
HOLY SHIT I REMEMBER THIS.

Is it the one where Alfred gets sick because of Bat-poop? I remember that that issue was great.

>>86104204
>She sucked as Spoiler/Robin, Babs gave her another shot, and she seized that opportunity becoming competent.
I feel it was too sudden, though one might think she only lacked positive reinforcement.

I also feel she lost her "white trash" background, but it has been years since I read her series and I might remember wrong

>>86104295

the whole transition of the cowl thing too was really sloppily handled too.

>Let's put the Cass suit on the cover
>I quit because reasons you do it now
>tee hee Ill never mention you again despite being your BFF and you clearly having something going on emotionally

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>>86103918
>>86104061
>>86103968
They were Chinese originally, actually.

Japan borrowed the design and the method to smith them 1 for 1, but still managed to do it worse than the original.

>>86104279
She defeated Scarecrow, Livewire and her father with a Black Mercy plant. Those ones where on her own as Batgirl.

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>>86104292
Yes, Gotham Knights #42. That was a really good series, especially the issue where Batman can't find anything to do is a straight-up classic.

>>86104365
Japan had shit metal ore.
They had to make new methods to make bladed weapons, and the methods were awesome.

...the weapons less so. Because they really had shitty metal ore.

>>86104343
First issue triggered everybody, as it had Cass leaving because... basically the complete opposite to her motivation to become Batgirl.

It was later fixed up with it being a plan to force Steph into the role and responsibility so she'd be forced to control herself\be controlled by Babs. But it did start really BAD.

>>86104451
>new methods
Anon, they used Chinese methods they learned directly from China. Cultural trade between the nations was common back then. Japan even imported their religion.

The only real problem here is that they borrowed one method then never sought to improve it in all that time. It became ritualized. Like everything else they did became it's own ritual. Rather than purpose, meaning, and use it boils down to following a Ritual to get the expected result.

>>86104451
Yeah, the first issue was the fucking worst, but it got pretty good once she made the costume change. I kind of consider that run a proto-Ms Marvel

>>86104451

To be fair Miller was dealt a bad hand to begin with. Barbara was a royal bitch at the end of BoP, who was supposed to return as Batgirl until calmer heads and Gail Simone said no to that idea. , and Cass being really hated by some of the writers/editors of the Batman comics at the time didn't help either.

>>86104607
>>Anon, they used Chinese methods they learned directly from China
I am no expert but I was under the impression they DID improve the imported methods... up until they stopped(for a number of various reason)

>>86103968

Plenty of non-Japanese characters use katanas, you just don't notice when they're white.

>>86104651
>for a number of various reason
Because it became ritualistic. Ancient Japanese culture based itself around rituals heavily. It is what gave them their mystique when viewed by outsiders. Everything honed to look as impressive as possible.

Not exactly lacking substance, but sometimes substance was incidental.

>>86104415

I didn't read the previous two, but I read that issue where she defeated the Black Mercy. The last issue of her series, right? It was really bad.

I actually liked her Batgirl run when it started, even when the rest of /co/ hated it. I thought it had heart and it was neat how she incorporated the environment into her fights. But then I stopped and only picked up the last few issues much later, and they *certainly* didn't have any heart. If you really like the character, you should be seeking better examples than that shit.

>>86104740
IIRC that was because they went full isolationists.

As I said, a number of reasons.

>>86104451
>It was later fixed up with it being a plan to force Steph into the role and responsibility so she'd be forced to control herself\be controlled by Babs

I hate that we have to use after the fact explanations to justify things.

>>86104752
Most of the last few issues where for quick wrap-up, but that happened to all titles because of N52. Just remember how Red Robin ended.

>>86104679
I could make an argument katanas would be popular simply because they are the only sword that is still widely made 'battle ready'. European wallhangers being dreadfully common with fewer people, much less mass producers, capable of making them properly anymore because of forgotten knowledge and lack of demand. Unless you want to track down some singular bearded guy living in the middle of Scandinavia who makes real swords for fun, it's difficult.

A self fulfilling prophecy, as it were. Katanas were the cultural meme so the knowledge and facilities were kept alive. Not to mention proper methods of using them as long as you don't do something stupid like try learning kendo.

>>86104837
So I guess Civil War II is your anathema because it's basically "Every other authors fix Bendis' shit with after the fac explanations: the event"

>>86104204
I don't think it's really progression when you retcon half of her backstory out. Her mom for example, got replaced with an entirely different person.

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>>86104837
Served for Cass.

>>86104890

wouldn't know, haven't read a marvel book in ages

>>86104903
I'm not entirely sure on that, haven't read Dixon's Robin in years. It would actually be cool if someone storytimes it.

>>86052916
i'm a marvel fag how never readed dc
i want to know her,from where start her story?

>>86104880
Oh and China currently has a super hard on for swords you can see bend by waving it around too hard. Which you don't want in a sword.

Unless you're a guy using those Indian sword whips, but then you're fucking crazy.

>>86105065
No man's land if I remember well.

Then her solo series.

>>86104928

Seriously. Just because they FIX something later doesn't mean there fuck up goes away and honestly I just don't want to support them till they do fix it when it can take years

>>86105112
tks anon
also nice dubs

>>86105164
Welcome, but I got no dubs.

>>86105156
Then mainline comics are not for you, stuff like this happens all the time. Happened with Hal/Parallax, happened with Donna Troy (multiple times), happened with Iron Man, etcetera. Hell, even they change shit up for the worse (ex: Cosmic Marvel)

>>86105311
>Then mainline comics are not for you,

Ive come to terms with that some time ago.

>>86101980
Character growth isn't derailment, anon.

The whole point was that she was finally becoming competent.

>>86105603
>Character growth isn't derailment, anon.

What growth? Her being Batgirl because ignores all her growth and Independence just so she can get what? batman's approval.

Her becoming just another sidekick isn't growth

>>86105065

See
>>86055842

>>86098201
Maybe that's why I never got into Cass as a character (or Batman). I like someone who wins, but has to work hard at it. Someone who is the best, but loses all the time isn't my cup of tea.

>>86098091
I don't know when Babs learned Batman's identity, but it was pretty soon, which makes any "tell Jim" a double edged sword.

I don't think she has zero motivation - just not necessarily a deep one - at first. That's why I love Dixon and Beatty's Batgirl: Year One, which shows her moving from wanting to be a cop to wanting to be a superhero in an almost accidental, but believable and gradually intensifying way.

>>86101312
Also, in Batgirl Year One, they said she was too short for the FBI and her dad refused to let her join the force.
Re-becoming Batgirl was definitely a regression.

>>86107726
>I don't know when Babs learned Batman's identity, but it was pretty soon, which makes any "tell Jim" a double edged sword.

I think Batman would be prepared for that though if it meant her keeping safe.

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>>86105065
Cass first appeared in No Man's Land, somewhere in the middle part of that long crossover event.

>>86101568
Agreed. It was a time where the strengths of all characters are being presented most clearly.

>>86101718
Steph isn't Babs 2.0 - she has a history that is integral to her character and motivations. If you compare Batgirl Year One to any of Steph's Batgirl arcs, there's a similar lightness of tone, but a complete difference in the "why" of what's happening.

>>86101812
Larson is doing good work, but...having listened to interviews with her and talking to her briefly at a con last weekend, it's pretty clear that she's approaching this book 1) as an indie book with Big Two cosmetics, and 2) as Batgirl of Burnside #53 and beyond. While she's clearly a WAY better writer, and Albuquerque makes Tarr look like the amateur she is (though one who does do very appealing splash pages), it's not currently anything more than a much better written and drawn "ooh look we're too edgy and cute for you" Batgirl.

Which, hey, if DC wants to sell that, that's great, but it's not going to garner Batgirl any more respect.

>>86101980
Um. Ever heard of character development?

>>86102476
Exhibit A: The Cass fan who calls you a racist for liking Steph.

>>86102350
That's very true, though Gabrych threw the Babs and Cass relationship for no good reason (maybe because Cass was going to find her "real" mom - whatevs, Gabrych).

>>86104204
I disagree she sucked as Spoiler - she was untrained, unfunded, unequipped, but she managed to find and use what she could. And Catwoman thought she was pretty darn impressive after her Robin training.

>>86104279
You'd argue how?

>>86104295
I don't think it's really that sudden. Steph had been training for over 4 years at that point.

Steph was from the suburbs, not trailer parks! Lower middle class, sure, but not poverty line.

>>86110512
And then reality collapsed in on itself.

>>86110483
>You'd argue how?

Beating Live Wire because you didn't realize your suit was insulated isn't competence

>>86104343
Editorial did make it mandatory, and Miller could have done a bit more research, but I really don't think a Steph as Batgirl comic would have worked with Cass hanging around. Now, if they wanted to do a Batgirl and Spoiler comic by Miller, that would have been awesome. But it doesn't negate what it was.

>>86104451
It started awkwardly, but the retcon works, I think (unless you're primarily reading the comic for Cass, which is fair enough, but not the point of Steph's Batgirl run).

>>86104752
There was a lot skimmed in the last two issues, but they still had a ton of heart - from Supergirl returning, to the confrontation with her dad, to the dreams, to Robin's salute and Nell's hug - I don't know what you were missing, but it's definitely emotionally resonant.

>>86104860
Oh, man. I love the Tim and Cass issue (even though it was flawed), but that ending...ugh.

>>86104837
Do you hate cape comics, then? Cause...unless it's one person writing the whole thing for the whole run, there's going to be retcons. It's how collaborative storytelling always works.

>>86105052
Dixon did have her mom be pretty stand-up, during her pregnancy, and then when she died, and there was definitely hints that she was going in the direction Miller took her when Dixon wrote Steph's return.

>>86105715
Did you even READ the Return of Bruce Wayne issue?

>>86105052
Steph's mom used to have a shitload of substance abuse problems and they live in the ghetto, meanwhile in the Batgirl run she's a nurse and makes her kid waffles every morning.

It was a pretty jarring shift. There weren't even hints leading up to it like her mom getting into rehab. She just goes from being a borderline crackhead to a pretty sterling role model.

>>86110585
Literally every time Livewire shows up, her defeat is made up of goofiness. If you didn't enjoy that part, then clearly Steph's Batgirl is not for you.

>>86110593
Already talked a bit about this, but she did have substance abuse problems, but during Steph's pregnancy, she was solid, and she's clearly doing reasonably well when Steph dies. They do not live at all in the ghetto - she's a suburban hero.

>>86109840
>No qt whaisian to stitch you up while you make fun of her crippling disability she's struggling to over come.
Why even live?

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>>86111222

I LOVE that outfit