Things that could have saved the DCEU

Better writing, better directing, not being forced into making Man of Steel because of rights disputes, marketing that didn't hinge on forcing divisiveness or crappy "it's just too smart for you plebs" fallacies, and the death of everyone that's ever posted on /tv/.

>>86022642
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ12ghCqO3o

Flashpoint style reboot

>>86022642
>Unless he's actually Jason
>Actually believing that dumb ass theory could be possible
kys

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>>86022642

>A Batman that doesn't outright murder dudes, making his choice to kill superman all the more dire, and would have made the Muhrtha scene work since he would have actually seen his humanity.

The point was that Batman lost faith in his life mission and the very concept of heroism, starting to see himself as no more better than the very criminals he'd spend the last 20 years fighting against, because all he did in that time was bring more pain and misery to the people around him without ever doing anything of worth or finality, and that after he'd finally decided to kill Superman he threw all his previous long-held codes and morals throughout the window. Heck, he was hoping to die in his hunt against Superman.

Him killing people was a major part in showing how utterly hopeless and gone Batman was. He had turned his back to everything he had held dear in his life. He was ready to commit suicide by way of Superman.

Don't try to make a cinematic universe just to take Marvel's money.

Also, Avengers got five movies worth of buildup. Justice League gets, what? Two?

>>86026203
And that concept has no dramatic weight unless you've actually SEEN what Batman used to be like.

>fire Zack Snyder
>apologize for Zack Snyder
>promise Zack Snyder will never work again
>start over

>A happier Everyman Superman, who we only ever see struggling with the weight of his murder of Zod and the collateral during his private moments with his Mom and maybe Lois.

So you want a Superman that puts out a fake image in a fucking movie where Lex is trying to show the world how much of a phony Superman actually is.

>>86026238

You don't need to actually see how Batman was before because everybody knows Batman. Just showing that he changed is utterly depressed is enough.

>>86026203
Yes yes we've heard this, but the simple fact is that it wasnt done well and perhaps a poor choice for a character arc when introducing your new Batman. Not saying Batman losing faith isnt worth exploring, but >>86026238
is right too. Not to mention everything involving that conflict got resolved with one name

>>86026310
>You don't need to actually see how Batman was before because everybody knows Batman.

it's assumptions like this that are the reason critics murdered every dceu film

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>MoS could've been great
>BvS could've been great
>Snyder ruined it all
This will never not hurt. We shouldn't have encouraged him after 300

>>86026311

I disagree. I thought it was done well and that it was a very interesting take because it was basically a meta explanation for why and how movie Batman has been portrayed over the years. I also disagree that they needed to show how Batman was before when everyone knows how Batman is supposed to be.

There are tons of movie where the movie starts with a depressed protagonist and we're never shown how he was before, just that he's that way now for whatever reason. You don't need a build-up to explain every fucking little thing.

i still don't get Batman branding the criminals so they'd get killed in jail

>Cheese up MoS a little bit, forcing Zod to fight on his terms after seeing the distruction of Smallville. The fight would take place on the moon or near the Fortress of Solitude culminating in tossing Zod back into the shadow dimension

So you want a safe movie where nobody gets hurt and Superman doesn't have to dirty his hands.

like clockwork, the snyder drones are descending on the thread

time to get out

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>>86026394
>I actually want a Superman movie
Why don't you bitch at Marvel for not making the Sentry movie you clearly want instead?

>>86026387

They were getting killed by Lex, who payed inmates to shank them, all so that he could make a huge deal about the branding thing. In truth Batman branded only the worst of the worst to forever mark them.

>>86026449
>>86026449

when did the film say lex was doing that shit?

>>86026432

I don't care about Sentry, but i still bitch to this day that i'll never get Demon in a Bottle for an Iron Man movie.

>>86022642
Exploring a villain that hadn't been used already. A creative team that was more interested in the characters and stories of DC than making it different than other cape movie in tone and presentation. PATIENCE.

>>86026377
Not explaining, SHOWING friend. Look the simple fact is normies, and by extension hardcore batfags, want to see Batman being a damn hero. When you start a new universe like this, you're setting the tone and establishing who this interpretation of the character is. You can still have a narrative where Batman wages a one man war against Superman given his paranoia, but you also dont want to make him a goddamn madman who spent as much detective work on a person that equates to a google search. The simple fact is BvS tries to take these characters into new places, but doesnt really do it exceptionally well while alienating both casuals and fans alike.

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>>86026464
Iron Man 2 is that way.

>>86026496

Not, it isn't. It could have been, but they decided to play safe. Tons of shit were changed in that movie, and in my opinion it was for the worse.

>>86026493

building on this, the DKR fight is so huge because it was the first time in forever that happened. nowadays they fight so often it has no weight

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>>86026203
Batman killing people at the rate he does it in the movie means he'd have no bad guys left very early in his career, let alone a Joker.
In the movie he'd been at it for decades already, which implies for all the gadgets and vehicles he has, he is a shitty detective that can't root out a problem quickly. Every other incarnation of Batman has him outting bad guys quickly, only for them to slip through jail/asylum by breaking out or legal means/corruption.

Worth pointing out the previews never showed him killing any dudes, just kicking their asses. So the sudden shift didn't bode well with people.

>>86026461
sometime between him pissing in a jar and jerking off about red capes.

I dunno man.

>>86026461
Somewhere around when he mentioned mailing fake letters to Bruce and somehow knowing his secret identity. Basically the film goes "It was all Lex, look how much of a criminal genius he is" without little to justify it

>>86026493

They showed that Batman had changed and in case people were left wondering explained too, and fuck normies. I liked that this Batman was a villain. I liked that this Batman was a depressed and insecure madman that let his heart by clouded by cynicism and hate.

And Batman didn't needed to investigate Superman. Superman was a constant in the world. Every time he turned on the TV the media was discussing about Superman and his new fuck-ups, which only served to reinforce the cynic in Batman that told him that the hero act that he played for 20 years for nothing and that Superman was foolishly carrying out now was helping no one. That Superman was making the world worse to feed his ego and that people were getting hurt over his account.

>>86026547
But has only been killing people for a few months his major villains might not have made appearances in that time frame.

>>86026677
Was this specifically mentioned at all?

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>>86026522
Yes it is. It's a dull mediocre mess, but it's as close to a Demon in the Bottle movie that's ever going to happen?

I wanted a halfway decent Suicide Squad movie too, but we're not getting that either. Don't you fucking dare bitch at me about movies "playing it safe".

>>86026547

The movie made it clear that Batman started to become more cruel and radical only the last 2 years staring with Zod's invasion and the Metropolis attack. He didn't killed people for 20 years.

Re-watch the movie again.

>>86026629

The movie showed that an inmate was paid by Lex's people to shank the guy that was transferred from Gotham to Metropolis, in order to save him from being shank'd in Gotham, and this was the same guy that Clark was investigating when he was determined to learn more about Batman and his recent streaks of abuse.

>>86026661
>Batman didnt need to investigate
I not really trying, nor expect, to change your mind, but that statement right there is fucking retarded and you know it. Worlds Greatest Detective taking mainstream media's word for it instead of doing actual detective work about a potential earth threat? Fuck off. You can like the movie anon, thats your god given right, but at the end of the day critics, most viewers, and WB themselves werent happy with BvS

>>86026702

Yes, it was.

>>86026702
Its highly implied that Bruce wasnt outright killing folks but he was getting worse. But i honestly think this is why he focused on Superman. He used Supes as a jumping off point for his frustrations and since he sees Supes a bigger threat then he would think he can get some satisfaction in beating him.

>>86026785

The only thing Batman needed and wanted to investigate was how to kill Superman.

The whole point of the goddamn movie in regards to Batman is that the dude lost faith in heroism. He started to see his mission as futile and damaging and went ahead to project his perceived failings as a hero unto Superman deeming his acts as also futile and damaging, but in a much bigger way, all so he could justify his desire to end Superman and his life in a desperate attempt to refill his life with some meaning again. That's why he felt he didn't need to learn much else about Superman, because he thought he knew everything there was to know about him.

Batman became blind by his insecurities and cynicism.

>>86026310

And that's one of the main problems WB has. You can't bank on people being familiar with your characters to start your cinematic universe but then give them a wildly different interpretation of that character with little to no explanation on how they got that way and just expect everyone to go with it.

>>86026881

Honest question:
What research did Batman due in regards to Superman?

Like how did Batman know what kryptonite would do to superman?

I honestly dont remember any scenes that indicate Batman figures out K's effect on Supes.

>>86026704

See, i agree with you that Suicide Squad played safe. Why, i don't know, because at the end of the day critics and SJWs still hated the fucking movie anyway.

But you won't change my opinion about Iron Man 2 and most of MCU movies. Their biggest problems is that they play too safe. So at least i'm glad that MoS didn't do that.

Now, i'm not dissing the MCU completely, because i like both the MCU and the DCEU, i just like some movies of theirs better than others.

But whatever, i'm certain that i'll be called a shill by one or both sides of the companywarfaggots.

>>86027023

They just show Superman constantly looking at screens of Superman previous battles and various stats, and the kryptonite thing is kept a secret in the first half of the movie because Bruce himself wanted to keep his real goal from Alfred, since he knew that Alfred wouldn't approve of him searching for a mean to kill Superman off.

should've had batman go to retrieve the kryptonite spear instead of lois lane.

then superman still saves him and sacrifices himself to kill doomsday. that would explain batman's determination to honor him in death.

>>86027031
They tried to play it safe because they know their cinematic universe is off to a rocky start and wanted a movie that catered to everybody yet doesnt really make anyone happy. Whatever Ayers original cut was, we might never know, but WB will continue to butcher there movies in an effort to meet trends (GOTG, Deadpool). Why do you think the Harley/Joker relationship was neutered? Because they feared turning away viewers with an graphic and unhealthy relationship.

>>86026203
I understand that's the point but it's still a shitty point to start out on.

>>86027173

Eh... fair enough, i still liked it, though. Having Batman be the villain of the story was refreshing.

>>86027023
Essneitally? Luthor tells him, (okay to be fair Batman "hacks' into Lex's system by way of using a USB cable) and he goes "SOUNDS LEGIT" and goes off to get the Kryptonite.

You know how in TDKR people got mad when Talia showed up and it was revealed Bane was her bitch the entire time?

In BvS, Batman is Luthor's bitch the entire time.

>>86027208
Then why cant we get more Owlman stuff instead?

>>86027144

I think Warner Brothers should just fucking embrace the hate. People have been calling their movies the Donald Trump of cape movies. Embrace that shit. Trying to go backwards to please the critics specially when the people in charge have no fucking clue how about to go in order to achieve that is just asking to fail at everything.

>>86022642
the biggest thing that would have saved the WB movies would be to make them more like the dc tv shows. super man works as a tv show and from lois and clark to smallvil its had decent ratings so how do they fuck up the movies so bad?

batman wise it was doing fine i dont know why you want to clutter your attempt to have launching point for justice league. its going to be cluttered enough as is. not just doomsday but batman vs superman shouldnt have been a movie before justice league.

seems more like something best left for after the justice league movie and a better premise than the zod fight being the catalyst

i think dc wanted to catch up to badly and civil war is the reason we got a superman vs batman fight nothing more

>>86027023

It's explained fairly early in the movie that the government has been experimenting with the effects of Kryptonite on Zod's body and that Lex is aware of this research. Bruce hacked Lex's metahuman files before his fight with Superman, meaning that he knew what Kryptonite would do to Superman.

I don't like the story of the DCEU so far in regards to Superman as I feel like Snyder really doesn't get the character and is making him WAY more messiah like than he needs to be. I feel like Snyder is just thrusting the idea of being a messiah on Clark and expects the audience to go along with it instead of having Clark slowly through his works go from a guy with abilities to being seen as the Earth's greatest hero. So I don't like the lack of solo movies for the rest of the JL aside from WW, I don't like Zack Snyder's direction, I don't like how WB keeps being rewarded for mismanaging these movies with huge box office draws...but I do want a DCEU so I've made my (resentful) peace with it.

So for now, I'm waiting to see how Justice League pans out as MoS was okay-ish and BvS was a huge disappointment and SS was a disappointment. If it's bad like BvS or merely okay like MoS, I'm done with the DCEU. WB needs to make the Justice League a slam dunk.

>>86027208
>Having Batman be the villain of the story was refreshing.
I guess I got my fill of that with Tower of Babel.
In all seriousness Batman being an asshole hasn't been a new concept since before I was born, and I'm fucking 30.

I'm guess I'm happy you found it refreshing but I found it a stale cliche.

>>86022642
>Unless he's actually Jason
They flat out said he wasn't and that the reason this Joker has a grill is because he got his teeth knocked out by Batman after killing Jason

>>86027004
You shouldnt but you honestly cant say folks arent familiar with DC characters.
The problem lies with ppl bot being opened to change or not using an origin as a starting point.

>>86027293

Hey, man, i'm all for more Owlman and the rest of Crime Syndicate. I'm fucking mad that Geoff Johns wasted most of them for Forever Evil and later killed all of them in the shitty Darkseid War. You can mine these characters for years and years. There's plenty of stories you can tell with them.

For example we will never see what Olwman wanted with Dick Grayson or the whole Helena Bertinelii + Owlman connection. Remember how Owlman took control of the Bertinelli mafia family operations? That he threatened Helena's father with information regarding his dead daughter?

Fuck Johns.

>>86027208

I feel like the story works better if you approach a cinematic universe from the vantage point of "construct", "deconstruct", then "reconstruct". How else can I appreciate what's been lost if I never see the DCEU Batman at his peak? Give me a solo Batman movie where I can see him slipping slowly into madness.

>>86026203
It doesn't matter what the point is, because it was fucking shit and the majority didn't like it.

>>86027375

I disagree that it was shitty and don't care about your and the opinion of the majority.

>>86027375
Fuck you

>>86022642
>>A Batman that doesn't outright murder dudes
That's the only thing that snyder did right with this batman.

>>86026547
>. Every other incarnation of Batman has him outting bad guys quickly, only for them to slip through jail/asylum by breaking out or legal means/corruption.
That was always retarded.

>>86027363
Hey I can agree with you there, I would definitely read a Crime Syndicate ongoing or ones with each member. Its just fun to know how their earth works or discovering the good doppelgangers of villains. But no we cant have nice things

>>86027416
Then I hope you enjoy seeing casuals shit talk DC and worship Marvel for the rest of your life.

>>86026367
The DCEU is entirely too much like the Sonic fandom for my comfort.

>>86027370

>Give me a solo Batman movie where I can see him slipping slowly into madness.

Hey, i'm all for that, but i'm sure people would bitch the fuck out about it.

When i heard they were going for an older Batman i thought the idea was great, because then you can have an older Batman at the start of the Justice League where you can do several "super-hero" movie while also having the opportunity to do more grounded Batman movies focusing in his past when there were no metas around. This way the audience wouldn't keep bitching asking "Where's Superman to help Batman take down the Joker?" because then Superman wouldn't have existed yet.

>>86026432
>I actually want a Superman movie

Then describe a Superman who doesn't suck, and who has struggle with things, like Superman from the DCAU. "It's Superman," isn't any excuse for creating a "safe movie where nobody gets hurt."

Honestly, the people who complain that DCEU Superman isn't cheery enough seem to be drawing their ideal Superman from the ether. They were unhappy with the one from Supergirl, too, because he wasn't cracking a grin.

>>86027471

I don't really care about that.

>>86027482
This is actually a scary comparison given the levels of autism surrounding both. But then again, nothing trumps the Sonic fandom in terms of awfulness

>>86027524
>isn't any excuse for creating a "safe movie where nobody gets hurt."
There are more ways to get hurt than with dull property damage but I know you're on your daily rant so please continue.

>>86026367
>blaming Snyder for everything
Oh grow up, movies are a group effort

>>86022642
Borrow from Iron Man's formula, make the first move about a relatively unknown who's been in enough adaptations for casuals to go "I know that guy!" In DC's case? The Question. Make it a movie focusing on a relatively experienced (think middle of O'Neil era) Vic Sage and a Montoya. Sprinkle in some stuff about her time in "her old city", and shit, make the villain a minor guy (for fuck's sake, not EVERY movie needs a world-threatening villain!), end with Sage injured enough that he won't be able to continue, but not dead so he can basically be her Tot. Then the money shot, you pull a Nick Fury, but with BATMAN.
Next is the Batman movie, if interest was high enough for there to even BE a franchise. If not? Well, it wouldn't be the first movie to have a sequel hook that went nowhere.
After that, then a Superman movie, with the end basically being the moment where the rest of the setting finds out what kind of world they live in, and again, end with Batman, this time teasing of the next movie.
Unlike Batman vs. Superman though? First and most obvious issue would be the name. Don't make it about a fight, because fuck knows we get that enough. Instead its "World's Finest", with Lex Luthor giving Gotham gangs various weaponry, COMICS stuff happens, and one of the gang leaders ends up as Metallo. While Lex is the cause of everything, they know it, and he knows they know, they don't end up with enough proof to put him away, although now hes on their radar.

>>86027524

Superfags want a Superman that doesn't exist.

They complained about Nu52 Superman for not being THEIR Superman and now they're complaining about Pre-52 Superman because he's constantly smacking people up, despite the fact that Pre-52 Superman have always been quick to throw his fist at problems, specially when it came to Luthor and Doomsday.

>>86027552
Think about it though. People want the old games/movies and Sega/WB is insisting on giving us Shadow the Hedgehog/Man of Steel instead.

It's a really apt comparison.

>>86027087
>>86027271
>>86027315

Ah ok so Bruce learns about K because he hacks Lex's database

I forgot that bit. Thanks for the refresher.

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>>86027524
>Honestly, the people who complain that DCEU Superman isn't cheery enough seem to be drawing their ideal Superman from the ether.
>>86027592
>Superfags want a Superman that doesn't exist.

<---------

>show Batman fully investigating Superman during the two years that Supes became a public figure

>Show Superman trying his best to keep people calm while saving them. Flies people to shore from the flood, "I'm sorry I can't take you further, but there are still more people who need my help."

>Single frame shots of Flash around Bruce Wayne trying to warn him about how shitty Injustice is

>when Superman asks for help saving his mother Batman replies with "Clark, I know, she's at a dock house not far from here." / "Lex sent me here to kill you..." / "Then we better make it look good." Shoots him with Kryptonite gas gun

>during the Doomsday fight, Wondy notices how weak Superman is holding the spear and demands he hand it over while Doomsy is weak from Bats' last K Gas canister

>"Do....do you know how to us that?" / "Please, I'm a warrior born, I was handling blades before I could speak, do you know how to use a lasso? Rope the beast and hold him steady!" / "I grew up on a farm."

>Doomsy is 'killed' Superman turns to Wonder Woman and Bats, makes mention of over hearing something speaking to Lex, talking about an impending invasion and how they have to prepare themselves. Batman mentions that he may know a few people.

Keep Synder on as a visual director, but don't allow him to do anything else, because all the man can do are visuals.

>>86027576

True.
BvS is the bastard child of Snyder,Terrio and Affleck

>>86027643

Batman knew about the big chunk of kryptonite that had been found in the Pacific Ocean where the World Engine had fallen since the start of the movie. He also knew that there were people interested in shipping that rock to the country.

What Batman didn't knew was who wanted, when they'd ship it to the country and in which port it would come. That's what Batman was investigating and found out after hacking Lex's database.

>>86027658

The problem with that page is it is a single feel good moment done for an annual, if i'm not mistaken, when in the actuality Pre-52 Superman didn't had stories like that in a constant basis.

>>86027740
But before getting lex's data theres no way he knew it's effects right, He only knew it existed yea?

>>86027681

>when Superman asks for help saving his mother Batman replies with "Clark, I know, she's at a dock house not far from here." / "Lex sent me here to kill you..." / "Then we better make it look good." Shoots him with Kryptonite gas gun

That would be awful and leave people mad anyway, since the big fight is nothing but a fake-out.

>>86027774
Just so I know, how many images of Pre-52 Superman doing stuff like that as a regular part of runs and various one shots am I going to have to post to get you to recant?

Seriously. Name a number. Because you're basically challenging me to turn this into a Superman Appreciation Thread and I'd rather have that than talk about the DCEU again with those bumblefucks up there.

>>86027797

Probably. He definitely knew it related to Superman since it came from the sunken World Engine.

>>86027812
But the big fight was such garbage, if it was established that they were putting on a farce to begin with then the whole fight would have felt more genuine than forced because of the title of the film

>>86027812
I wouldn't be mad.
I'm fucking TIRED of this generic "we're crossing over! let's fight over a dumb misunderstanding" shit that always happens.

It's just so cliche.

>>86027826

Are you really going to be obtuse and ignore that Superman comics are mostly centered on the big plots and fights and less about Superman being nice to people and doing charity work?

>>86027859
>>86027862

It would still leave people mad and there's the problem that Batman before that fight was intent on dying trying to kill Superman and utterly bugfucked depressed and mad.

In reply to OP:

Stop shitting on Superman. I say this not only as a fan but just from a buisness stand point. Alienating any portion of your audience is dumb and having batman beat up superman is ridiculous for so many reasons.

You upset fans of superman, you make audiences think superman is lame and that eliminates potential growth of the superman market. Whos gonna wanna buy superman figures after seeing him get his ass handed to him, by batman of all people.

Marvel doesnt seem to totally shit on any one character in favor of another. Everyone gets their due and thats smart buisness. Get more kids to like as many of your heroes as possible.

>>86027812
Also, what was up wuth Batman having zero reaction at all to Superman knowing his identity. He just flew down and was like "Bruce, stop, I need your help." And Bats just stared at him and walked backwards into his trap thingy.
>>86027909
That bumbed me out, we could have gotten obsessive detective and instead we got angry vigilante

>greentext list of faggy complaint number 34523...

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>>86027875
Are you really going to be obtuse and act like all the character is is a glorified punching machine?

Becuase god knows this is the right thread for it

>>86027960

>Also, what was up wuth Batman having zero reaction at all to Superman knowing his identity.

I chalked that up to Batman being ready to die.

>>86027315

>I don't like the story of the DCEU so far in regards to Superman as I feel like Snyder really doesn't get the character and is making him WAY more messiah like than he needs to be. I feel like Snyder is just thrusting the idea of being a messiah on Clark and expects the audience to go along with it instead of having Clark slowly through his works go from a guy with abilities to being seen as the Earth's greatest hero.

But the movies is about how Superman isn't a messiah...

While I'm not saying I disagree with the interpretation, was there ever any confirmation of the whole 'Batman in BvS is a death seeker" thing or is that just a fan theory that's got a lot of groundswell?

Because like, there's a tendency for you guys to insist on something and then Snyder will blatantly say the opposite was the case. Like I remember in the weeks following Man of Steel there were a bunch of people insisting Metropolis was mostly evacuated until Snyder said "No, of course it wasn't".

>>86028065
The message gets muddied because Snyder doesn't know when to turn off the imagery. Like how the power lines and stuff start forming crosses even when we're supposed to be thinking Clark is human deep down.

>>86028123

Yeah, i agree with you there. The imagery after Superman's death was uncalled for and basically worked against the movie. I don't know what Snyder was fucking thinking.

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>>86027592
That brand of Superfag really just wants a reassuring father figure, and will reject any incarnation of the character who could possibly fail them; mostly the younger incarnations. Given the extent to which /co/ is underaged, I can understand the appeal of having a thirty something year old man in such a role. I have a really cringey rant from here, saved, about this in one of my folders.

>>86028093

Bruce was troubled with the fact that he was currently older than his father and acknowledged that he accepted the fact that he'd probably die trying to fight Superman, saying that this would be the only thing of worth he'd ever do in his sorry and shitty life.

Now, the movie doesn't say this, but i felt that he glorified his father and his death a bit.

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>>86028206

>>86028170
I do. He was thinking "this looks cool. modern mythology!" and he doesn't know how to tone it down. He thinks in symbols and pictures and in the moment rather than in the fullness of the narrative

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>>86026367

I blame the idiots who claimed that Snyder was a visionary genius after he was done raping Alan Moore.

>>86028247
>all star superman
>classic

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>>86028206
Here's the thing man. I'm a thirty-something, and I don't have my shit together. So why should I respect or look up to or admire or like a Superman that doesn't have HIS shit together either?

I shouldn't be leaving the theater thinking I could do a better job with Superman's powers than Superman did.

>>86028247
Can someone edit Batman shooting his grappling hook right through the girl's chest?

>>86028226
>Now, the movie doesn't say this,
That was all you had to say.

I read a review of Batman v Superman that compared the film to receiving a sermon from a heretical priest. Sounds about right. Snyder has his own vision and he believes in it, other people seem to treat it as blasphemy.

>>86028332

You're messing what i said. I said that in my personal opinion i thought that Bruce glorified Thomas and how Thomas died. Only that.

But the movie makes plenty clear that Bruce stopped caring about his own life and was ready to die in order to try and kill Superman.

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>>86028285
Just a sad Universe, prostrated by a mediocre director and a mediocre producer Deborah Snyder and THE WORST cast of actors available, add to that Warner Bruh, since the 80s do not know what to do it the DC characters

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>>86028307
Casualfag here, I didn't know Joe Kelly wrote Supes vs the Elite, fuck that makes me smile

>>86028467
Respectfully all I asked was "Was this confirmed by the creators". Your answer was "no". That's enough.

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>>86028401

Some of the ideas behind BvS are interesting and are perfectly valid criticisms of superhero fiction. However that doesn't excuse the incoherent writing, nonsensical characterization and awful pacing.

If you are are gonna make a morally complex story then you need decent writers. It takes an insane amount of incompetence to come up with bullshit like the Martha scene.

>>86028665

You asked about his suicidal tendencies, which is confirmed by the movie itself. I just added my interpretation about how Bruce thought of his father. Don't shit-post.

>>86028732
I asked for confirmation from the writer/directors/producers. "It was in the movie itself" doesn't really work because, frankly, you guys insisted for four years that the movies weren't deconstructions and then Deborah Snyder said they were. I don't trust you guys going "it's in the movie" because you'll see what you want to see in it and Death of the Author up to and well after you get contradicted by said Authors.

>>86028467
>But the movie makes plenty clear that Bruce stopped caring about his own life and was ready to die in order to try and kill Superman.

How much evidence do you have to back up that claim? And I mean scenes in the movie that make that clear.

>>86028688

There was nothing wrong with the Martha scene.

Bruce based himself on his father, who died trying to protect his mother, and throughout the movie constantly appears rescuing women. The movie makes it clear that he fails as if he failed his parents and that he isn't a hero.

The "Martha" scene happens after Bruce witnessed Superman laying down ready to die and uttering Martha's name just like his own father did the very night he died. This took Batman out of the moment and he had a PTSD episode where he was reminded of his parents death, specially his father death. You can see afterwards that he's even more angry than before and confused, still threatening to explain why he had said that name.

When Lois appear to explain that the Martha Superman talked about was Superman's own mother and that she was in danger, Batman had to rethink the whole deal and what he was doing, feeling ashamed of himself. He started to see Superman as his own father in a way. So with that he took the chance to save Superman's mom as a mean to find a bit of redemption.

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>>86028854
>There was nothing wrong with the Martha scene.

>>86028307
Could you have? Many of those walking out of MoS conceded that Superman was in a no-win situation, but that this shouldn't have happened, because he's Superman and Superman shouldn't be allowed to fail. Something like that feels less like an inspirational character that you're supposed to aspire towards, or in anyway identify with, and more like an object of reassurance.

>>86028854
Who the Fuck calls their mother by her first name? Shit, I'm adopted and I still call my adopted mom "Mom" or "Mother", I can't just look at her and call her by her first name, and I doubt I could with my biological mother either

>>86028854
The problem you're overlooking is that in his paranoia earlier in the movie Bruce raises a very legitimate question of " Is this alien more trouble than he's worth? What happens if Superman goes bad? Can we trust him to use that kind of power?"

That question doesn't get addressed at all much less resolved. We're just told to assume "that will never happen it's fine! trust him! he a gud boy! ". When...well, after MoS the audience themselves were starting to ask that same question without it even coming up in the narrative.

That's why the whole "Martha" thing feels unsatisfying for so many, even if it does make sense for Bruce to get triggered in that moment. Because the conflict was painted as being ideological; about MORE than just Bruce's baggage.

>>86028065

Well you could have fooled me with the emphasis on how Superman is special even among his race for being the first natural birth in a century. And how he will be a guiding light for humanity, the juxtaposition of his face next to Jesus's in the Garden of Gethsemane, the crucifixion pose Superman makes after Jor-El says "you can save all of them".

Or in BvS where when Superman is killed, there's a whole bunch of crosses around him and the seen with Lois and Wonder Woman is supposed to mirror "La Pieta".

So if Superman is NOT supposed to be a messiah figure, then Snyder's done a piss poor job of communicating that to the general audience. I do feel that the problem is Snyder at the end of the day. Snyder can't help but make things epic, even when they shouldn't be.

>>86028123
Pretty much this. It doesn't help that Clark AGAIN barely speaks through the film, letting fans have to fill in the blanks to what he's thinking and feeling.

>>86028854
>There was nothing wrong with the Martha scene.
Yes there was. Batman and Superman having a mother with the same name does nothing to ameliorate the grievances the two have with each other. Superman being more human doesn't make him less likely to turn evil and Batman of all people should realize that.

>>86028854

None of that excuses the insane leaps of logic that the film makes. Batman said that he wanted to kill Superman because he was a danger to the entire world, not killing him because he has a mother goes against everything he has said in the film so far.

Most people don't call their mothers by their names, Clark calling his mother Martha is just a massive plot contrivance, the writer was incapable of coming up with a way to communicate this bit of information so he made Supes said something completely unnatural.

The fact that they go from bitter enemies to friends so quickly is also completely dumb and unbelievable. They were about to murder each other and the next minute they are quipping.

>>86028927
The problem with your whole "no win situation" is that I wasn't talking about Clark killing Zod (although I can see you might think that given the image I posted).

I was thinking more about stuff like the tornado scene where he chooses not to save his father. Like, I was kind of a shit heel at 19 but if I were in that situation you better believe I'd be thinking "SHIT THAT'S MY DAD. I GOTTA DO SOMETHING" and going to save him, even if he puts up his hand to stop me. Because that's family, man.

Or even before that with regards to not learning the limits of his power until so late in life. That just seems irresponsible to me.

Killing Zod? Fuck, I'd have killed Zod upon meeting him. But that's because I'm an asshole. Still would've ended better for humanity though.

>>86028957
Because Bruce wouldnt have cared if he said mother. For all he knew his mother was just like him. An alien. Its about the personification of his mother. Giving her an identity.

>>86028809
>>86028851

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfubcZaU1is

>>86029100
You didn't even read the post chain properly. He's arguing in favor of Snyder's interpretation, and AGAINST the idea of a Superman that can't fail.

>>86029056
>Superman being more human doesn't make him less likely to turn evil
No but him having human loved ones does.

>>86028957

Batman was shit-talking Superman parents just moments earlier. Superman probably tried to appeal to Batman vigilante side in hopes that he'd agree to save a random and unrelated woman that share the same name as his mother. Remember, Superman knows who Batman is.

>>86029113
That's still "in the movie itself".
It's still not metatextual confirmation of your interpretation of the scene. Stop insisting it is.

>>86028981

Batman actually thought that their brand of heroism was futile, which is something that Superman proved to Batman to be false when he showed to Batman that he was ready to lay his life in order to protect his mother and when he kept risking his life over and over to end Doomsday.

So no, the point wasn't left unresolved. The problem is that people think Batman was worried about Superman going evil, when in truth Batman was pissed off about Superman being Superman at all.

>>86029180
>No but him having human loved ones does.
Having human loved ones makes you less likely to do evil things?

...That might've worked if the movie to directly follow this wasn't Suicide Squad. Joker loves Harley. Deadshot loves his daughter. Hell, are we to assume that NONE of the henchman that Bruce mows down throughout the course of the movie and even after the Martha scene have mothers or girlfriends or buddies or kids?

>>86029071

Batman was against the very act of heroism. The whole point is that Batman let cynicism get to him. Superman show him he was wrong about Superman and about being a hero. How can people still not get this?

And Superman had just heard Batman shit-talking his parents while Batman dragged his ass with a cord.

>>86029254
"If there's even a 1% chance he might go bad" is pretty damn clear man. You're just redefining the ideological conflict into one that you think has a better answer.

>>86029321

He didn't said bad, he said enemy, and when Alfred he said he wasn't an enemy, Bruce talked about the worth of promises using his own life as an example.

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>>86022642
Ben Affleck and his solo film WILL save the DCEU.

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Batman throughout the movie is constantly comparing Superman to his own father, Thomas Wayne, because in Batman's mind they represent very distinct ideas of heroism. Superman as a very alien concept of the hero above the clouds that gives no crap about the collateral damage of his big battles and Thomas as the very human hero that is ready to throw his life away to protect his loved ones.

That's why Batman constantly asked if Superman bled and talked about how Superman's parents probably taught him that he was special and shit while Batman's own parents taught that the world only make sense when you force it to because they died gruesomely in the gutter.

So when the Martha moment comes Batman is forced to see Superman as Thomas, due to the circumstances, and that association shakes his resolve in trying to kill Superman, because now he can see that Superman isn't so different from his father Thomas and that Batman was wrong about how Superman was.

Of course, that's my interpretation, but i'm sticking to it.

>>86029600
That's not possible.
Even if it's literally the greatest film ever made, every critic on the planet loves it, and it makes a trillion dollar gross, Ben Affleck's solo Batman film CAN'T save the DCEU.

All it can do is transform it. The success of Batman films only ever teaches WB to do more Batman movies or to make their other properties as close as Batman as possible. or to damage control by sticking Batman and Batman franchise characters into moves that don't need them.

>>86029639
>and talked about how Superman's parents probably taught him that he was special and shit
The thing is though, that's exactly what happened. With two sets of parents even.

>>86029639
>Superman as a very alien concept of the hero above the clouds that gives no crap about the collateral damage of his big battles and Thomas as the very human hero that is ready to throw his life away to protect his loved ones.

See, it's funny that Thomas is supposed ot care about collateral damage when he's the one that needlessly escalates the situation by trying to punch a man with a gun pointed at him and his family. Thomas behaved super recklessly at that moment and got himself and his family killed instead of just handing over the valuables.

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Its a "likable character joins a team and everyone likes him/her except for one person, who doesn't trust him/her and the rest of the team gives them shit for not trusting the new person, but then it appears that the new person actually was a spy for the enemy, prompting the team to be super pissed until that person inevitably finds they're more loyal to the team and betrays the antagonist to gain the trust of the team again" episode

Where else does this happen?

>>86029840
fuck I'm high... i meant to post this as a thread

>>86029180
Some of the most evil humans ever have had human loved ones.

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>>86029647
I'll take it.

>>86029647

You mean the same lesson that the Suicide Squad movie has taught WB? That Batman properties are still popular?

That's another reason I dislike Snyder. All he's doing is reinforcing that Batman's the only hero in the DC universe that good movies can be made about.

>>86029910

Either way, both MoS and BvS places a huge ton of importance on the idea of human connections.

Take MoS which was basically a huge pissing contest between horny people who have sex and virgins automatons who hate sex.

BvS basically spells to you that having loved ones, specially when the loves ones in point are the ones that you dick, is what gives you strength, and if you're a lonely beta faggot you'll end up fucking psycho like Batman and Lex. It's no coincidence that when Batman turns good Wonder Woman right there beside him to serve as his designated pussy.

>>86030070

DCEU is for chads.

>>86029100
>YOU JUST VINDICATED YEARS OF SAYING THIS IS WHAT HATERS ARE DEMANDING OF THE CHARACTER, PROVING YOU WANT A FLAWLESS MARY SUE.

This.

>>86029182
>Superman knows who Batman is.

Yeah but when did he learn the name of his mother? He didn't it's just shit writing.

>>86030172

Dude... it's Bruce Wayne.

>>86030192
Who the hell is Bruce Wayne?

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>>86026413
That's odd, I saw the OP ask a question at the end of his post implying that the topic was open to discussion.

It's strange how DC/Marvel niggers fight for their respective, shitty little movies in such petty ways; too bad there isn't a downvote feature on this site to just hide everything you don't like to see, right?

I think I can suggest one site in particular that might be more to your liking ;^)

>>86022642
>>A happier Everyman Superman, who we only ever see struggling with the weight of his murder of Zod and the collateral during his private moments with his Mom and maybe Lois.

Wouldn't be better if Man of Murder didn't happen and got a better different superman movie to this superman to work on BvsS?

>>86027137
I agree. Would've given Bats a little more agency during that last fight too.

>>86026158
Why is Superwoman dressed up for sex and not super-people stuff?

>>86022642
>Superman acting like Superman
>Keep the feeling that we're being dropped into "Act 3" of the universe where there's already a lot of superheroes, and a lot of shit has already happened in-universe
>Play the comic book nonsense straight. Robin saying "To the Batmobile!" played straight, costumes and such being played straight
>Keep the tone of SOO SAA SKWAA from the first comic-con trailer from last year, more of a psychological shitshow, scary movie about supervillains than a QUIRKY AF LOL LIL NETFLIX AND CHILL movie

To contrast with Marvel;
MCU: We see superheroes emerge, and the universe building up in real-time, things are more realistic like half the costumes being practical suits rather than costumes, like Ant-Man
DCEU: Make the year ambiguous. Present day but not too much flashing of cell phones and shit in your face. Costumes don't need explanations, and are actual costumes rather than "suits", if that makes sense. Basically for the DCEU, go all-out with the comic book camp, but take it seriously in-universe. Play it straight. For the most part, keep the darker tone, but make the lighter characters lighter and the darker ones darker.