Who are the best /co/ mechs?

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I wish we saw more of these guys...

>>85928084
Exosquad had cool ones.

>>85928710
examples?

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>>85929679

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Well, we were supposed to get a cartoon.

>>85928084
Personally i think western robots get shit because they aren't as sleek or perfect, they tend to be blocky and industrial. Personally I always preferred the blocky transformers to the visual jargon of the bay movies.

Western artists cannot design a mech that does not look like ass

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>>85930230
you fucking wot?

>>85930230
>Pacific Rim
>Gennedy Mechs

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You can't say we didn't improve upon it.

>>85930381
>No manes
>Generic zoids
0/10

>>85928154
Is this a toy tie-in? It looks like one.

Why don't people consider the Iron-Man suit a mech?

>>85930440
Traditionally mechs are much larger than a person and piloted rather than worn as armor

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>>85930492
does mecha hulk count?

>>85930440

Tony doesn't really ascend to mecha levels till hulk buster armor.

>>85930498
Eh, I'd say no but a decent argument for it counting could probably be made. So I guess it's a borderline case.

>>85930381
I ended up liking Voltron, but thought the Lion designs were a bit meh.

I do like their individual weapons though.

>>85930263
I think the Titan is a good example of iconic mech design. It manages to look modern and retro at the same time.

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>>85929991
>Personally i think western robots get shit because they aren't as sleek or perfect, they tend to be blocky and industrial.

/m/ here, I'm honestly of the belief the western/eastern mecha distinction is pretty much a load of bull.

Just take your example.
The original blocky Transformers are Japanese.
The new visual jargon in Bay movies is 100% western cinema and design.

It's just robots are an actual genre in Japan while they're incredibly niche over here so Japanese make a full spectrum of them from hyper-realistic to not-gay capeshit whereas most people ever see more than one western production (which is imitating anime anyway) and think that there's some sort of actual schism going on.

>>85930416
Surprisingly, it's not.

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>>85929991
You have not seen enough robots. Japanese mecha run the gamut aesthetically, besides how blocky =/= "industrial".

If anything I've heard what you say dissuade people from robots. They say "this isn't complex enough, it looks like a toy" or something like that even if something like a real car, tank, aircraft, household electronic device, etc. tends to be rather flat geometrically because that's how it works best.


>>85931909
I agree with this man on many things.

Here's my question; why on earth is the USA so averse to robots? People easily gobble up cape shit, magic shit, or mystery shit, but why not some metal?

And when they do, why is it that it's always the same franchises or same problems? Transformers, "Voltron", Power Rangers, etc. People see robots and immediately these franchises come up. Other times you get people saying "why would anyone do this?", "square cube law!", "it's for kids!", etc.

Why the distinction?

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Also, why do people say "mech" and not "mecha"? It's an abbreviation of "mechanical", why cut it off further than mecha?

BIG DUO!
ES IST
SHOWZEIT!

>>85933152
DU MUSST STIRBT

>>85935008
NEIN

>>85930574
>meh
At least they do differ from each other when compared to the original anime incarnations.

Original Go-Lion had them all identical sans coloring.

Legendary Defender Lions actually do differ in looks and in functioning.

>>85933037
nanomachines

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does this count?

>>85935008
*DU MUSST STERBEN

>>85928710
Man those made awesome toys too.

>>85928084

This is true.

I'm making a mechanical themed boardgame and I'm having to outsource illustration and design to the Philippines because the best the USA can muster is boxy shit, hyper complicated and overdesigned grim shit or gay transformers.

The only western robot designs I usually like are Transformers, and those are usually designed as characters instead of armor.

So perhaps western designers need to think of mechs more like characters in their own right instead of just the weapon the guy will pilot?

>>85935464
But if the mech is a character, what is the point of a pilot?

>>85935454
>mecha

Fuck you, phone.

>>85935474
THE SOUL

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>>85928084
it took this long to post him?

>>85935682
He's not a robot
For you

>>85935684
You're lying!

>>85933091
Mecha and mech are not synonymous.

Mecha is Japanese, usually humanoid.

Mech is western and all it requires is a human pilot

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>>85928084
NIGGA DO YOU EVEN DYNAMO JOE?

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L O Y A L T Y
O
Y
A
L
T
Y

>>85933037
>Here's my question; why on earth is the USA so averse to robots?
They're gay and convoluted, if you're going to have fantastical elements/powers in a show you may as well stick it on a biological/magical character instead of mecha which is already impractical before it starts juggling skyscrapers.

Also, censors won't let living characters be gored to death or blown to bits in mediums marketed toward children or general audiences, but it's fine if that happens to robots, giving the impression they're weak.

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>>85930263
So a pile of poorly drawn complete shit is your example of a good design?

Thanks for totally proving my point.

I wonder if a lot of American artists just never got over the 50's and 60's when it comes to robots. They still seem to want to do things like corrugated hose arms, small bars bolted together for arms/legs, and simple geometric shapes for bodies.

They seem to fall back on Rosie, Bender, Wall-E, Marvin, way too much.

>>85937799
Because it is a distinct look which was part of the culture and is cute so it fits for making ones that are not trying to pass for humans or be intimidating.

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>>85937943
Still looks like they are holding onto some aesthetic that came along in the 50's. Almost like it has become some kind of tradition.

>>85928084
Optimus Prime and all the G1 Transformers are Japanese, anon. They're some other toyline that was bought up.

>>85938024
Which is the point. If you have things where it is a war setting they will be closer to tanks with legs. If it is a domestic servant that is specialized for one task like sweeping up dust and has no purpose outside it, it will have smooth form and lack of features. If it is alien, it will mimic organic structures with pistons and wires and having the feeling of being overwhelming.

When you need a cute robot made out of scraps that is friend to children, the raygun type is ideal.

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>>85929991

Well, you know what? Those elitists are missing out. A cool robot shouldn't have to conform to anyones beauty standards. Be they slick and spikey, or boxy and industrial, what matters is what's on the inside. As long as you're not some bag of flesh hiding under armor and pretending to be a robot, you're cool by me.

I'M LOOKING AT YOU, EVANGELION.

>>85935731
The Hammer was so fucking based. It was a wonderful look at the insane amount of money, manpower, maintenance and redundancy would probably be required to have a giant humanoid robot as a weapon.

>>85938124
Objectively wrong. The humanoid form is that which is the pinnacle of evolution, so the farther a machine deviates from it, the worse it is.

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>>85938192
>The humanoid form is that which is the pinnacle of evolution
>pinnacle of evolution
>evolution

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>>85935714
But that's wrong.
Mecha is simply an abbreviation of mechanical; it means mechanical stuff, right down to shit like your toaster. Japanese robots aren't usually just referred to as mecha, but as robots. If you ever actually watch something like Mazinger or Gundam, you'll notice that the characters don't ever really refer to their machines as "mecha"- Mobile Suits are Mobile Suits. A Zaku is a Mobile Suit. A GM is a Mobile Suit. Mazinger is called a robot, Aphrodite A and Boss Borot are called robots, meanwhile the various automated or semi-automated machines Dr. Hell sends are called Mechanical Beasts.

Mecha need not be humanoid; just look at the Crab Gunner. It's a tank with legs, and it worked. In-series (Dougram) it was a formidable Combat Armor despite its age, and yet machines like it, such as the Tequila, Desert, and Blizzard gunners, continued to be used amongst newer Combat Armor models. Various mecha franchises have non-humanoid robots; Giant Gorg has the colossal excavator type Dinosaur, L-Gaim has Machineries, Gundam itself has a medley of conventional combat vehicles as well as the Zeek wonderwaffen referred to as Mobile Armors. You get stuff like the Ball; simple space vehicles converted for combat use, but in no way humanoid at all.

Where do you get this weird idea that "mech" refers to something different? It's used to refer to the same machines in context every time.

>>85938553
Dude, of course they aren't called "mecha" in universe.

Besides, even a cursory google says I'm right.
Mecha is a Japanese thing. That's undeniable.
And it means giant fighting robot.

Mech is a more western term that refers to things like the machines from MechWarrior.

You ask anyone here, they'll generally agree of the rough definitions I've given.

>>85938683
>And it means giant fighting robot.

Just google that shit on Japanese google and see what happens.
The whole genre in japanese is called "robotto anime."

No really.
メッカアニメ(mecha anime) vs ロボットアニメ(robotto anime).
Put each of them into google and see what happens.

>Machines from Mechwarrior
You do know Battletech is a game made by some Macross fans who were trying to bring those anime to the US?

>>85938807
Why is /m/ called /mecha/ or not /robotto anime/?

>>85938683
The terms are arguably more similar than different, they more refer to a genre of sci-fi or concepts in sci-fi rather than specific machines. The lines have been blurred at least since Gundam came out, because as >>85938553 points out Ball and Guntank are both counted as mobile suits.

At best the Japanese term "mecha" can include or be used as a translation of the term "mech" as well as vice versa.

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>>85936931
>logic
Why should a man be able to do those things? That's even worse IMO. Leap tall buildings in a single bound? X-Ray vision? Why and how can this be supported? There is no biological basis for this but it goes unquestioned.

Why should "practicality" be a concern? It's a fictional setting, have fun. Again with the weird aversion thing; some guy using magic to pull off some weird stuff doesn't make any more sense, when you think about it, than a robot doing the same thing. How is a machine weaker than a man if it's destroyed? Are you talking about the old "use robots instead of humans as goons" thing? That still doesn't mean that the robots have to be weak; it depends entirely on how you depict them. If your enemy consists of android goons or mecha piloted by goons then now weak they are depends on how weak you make them.

>>85938683
A cursory google says you're wrong. Wikipedia says:
>The term Mecha may refer to both scientific ideas and science fiction genres that centers on robots or machines controlled by people.
>These machines vary great in size and shape, but are distinguished from vehicles by their humanoid or biomorphic appearance.

Mech (disambiguation)
>is a term used in science fiction for a large, pilotable robot.

I posted an Ottrich earlier. How does that look human? It isn't even explicitly a fighting machine; all Walker Machines save the Combat Mecha, e.g. Xabungle itself, are part-time excavation equipment, the Ottrich especially so. How is anything in MechWarrior different, fundamentally, from what you want to distinguish as "mecha"? They're all just robots. People can refer to any mecha as a "mech" at any time, it doesn't change anything at all. I don't get the line you're trying to draw here.

I still agree with that guy from earlier. There's no real divide I can actually figure out.

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>>85938838
Because /r/ was already taken by then.
Look at 2chan, their board for this sort of anime is also called robo (ろぼ).
They even go further in things like Patlabor where the titular robots are called labors since that is the translation of the original Czech word that was adopted into English to signify, well, robots.

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>>85938870
It's been blurred waaay longer than that dude, even Mazinger had non-humanoids. Animal shaped Mechanical Beasts or other vicious machines have been a staple of MOTW mecha shows.

>>85938872
Like most words, there are no harsh lines.
Sometimes there are grey zones that both belong and do not belong to the general definition.

To most people unfamiliar with Gundam or Macross or other "robotto anime", they'll say "mecha" are giant Japanese fighting robots. Generally humanoid.
Of course in the actual anime involved, there are robots that are not humanoid and are not called distinct from the ones that are.

Just google image search "mecha". If there was a common theme, what would it be? Giant Japanese humanoid robots. There are some that are not, obviously, but far more that are.

What happens when you google image search "mech"?
Western sci-fi war machines of generally less humanoid, but not necessarily, design.

I'm not talking strict definitions. I'm just saying what the world generally felt to mean.

>>85933037
>Here's my question; why on earth is the USA so averse to robots?

It's actually kinda weird because people have no problems with robots in video games.
A lot of vidya has tons of robots all around the place. Heck, it's hard to think of a Sci-fi RTS that doesn't have any and series like Mechwarrior used to be AAA properties of the highest caliber back in the day.

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>>85938983
But the point of my post has been that that sentiment doesn't make a lot of sense, they're fundamentally the same thing.
If anything the google test you put out here is evidence of this; it's Google here in the states showing how people draw a line that isn't really there, at least not on any solid or verifiable basis.

>>85935682
>tfw anon uses an image you posted yesterday to explain Big Guy and Rusty to Baneposters.
I don't know how to feel.

Okay /co/, here's a different question. Look at this image here. If you -didn't- know this image was related to an anime in any way, shape, or form, where would you have guessed it came from?

>>85929740
>>85929755
>>85929757
>>85929769
>>85929786

Man, somewhere, in some alternate universe, there is a Starship Troopers adaptation done by the Exosquad development team.

>>85938983
>I'm not talking strict definitions. I'm just saying what the world generally felt to mean.

Look, man. I don't want to sound rude but I've never really heard of that destinction, not even online.

People always called them robots. Pacific Rim was a movie about giant robots, so does the theme song of Megas say the eternal phrase "Chicks dig giant robots.", whenever I talked to friends about these, no matter if it was my old Mechwarrior game or TTGL, it has always unanimously been a cool giant robot.
Heck, Saints Row 4 even parodies it with the protagonist calling this power armour they have a robot while the mechanic desperately tries to explain that it's a power armour and that's something else entirely.

>>85938905
>that is the translation of the original Czech word that was adopted into English to signify, well, robots.

[citation needed]

>>85938905
>They even go further in things like Patlabor where the titular robots are called labors since that is the translation of the original Czech word that was adopted into English to signify, well, robots

That's actually really neat.

>>85938953
I think I latched onto Gundam because it's what I know best, I'm not altogether knowledgable about the history of Japanese science fiction prior to the late 70's/80's. I think a key difference between mecha fiction which came out post-Gundam was that there was now a subdivision within the genre between Real Robo and Super Robo. Divisions such as that formalized the genre, whereas before I think one could argue that Mazinger's Mechanical Beasts could be classified as being similar to Kaiju (but then again, a counterpoint would state that Mecha had already differentiated itself as a genre way earlier with Tetsujin 28, if I'm remembering correctly either Mazinger or Getter Robo subverts genre conventions established then).

I think the difficulty of talking about mecha as a genre of science fiction in America comes about because our own genres divide sci-fi into camps like Military Sci-Fi or Space Opera. Gundam and most real robo shows like it would fall squarely into this category (although clearly there are limitations to this assumption: can you imagine Eva being counted as "military"?), while Super Robo might be shuffled into Space Opera (again: Big O clearly doesn't belong there despite being Super Robo). This is why many reviewers found difficulty in describing Pacific Rim in terms other than "like Transformers".

Anyone else just use mecha as the genre and mechs for the suites themselves across most lines?

>>85939141
I only have the wiki link for Rossum's Universal Robots, but the word "robot" is derived from Czech "robota", meaing "forced labor". It's not inconceivable that the "labor" from "Platlabor" came from RUR, as that play is incredibly influential within early science fiction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R.

>>85939141
>[citation needed]

I actually happen to be fluent in Czech.
Není to až tak divný, kdýž si uvědomíš, že dokonce takovej dolar je ve skutečnosti přebraný slovo z Českého tolaru.

>>85939153
Yeah, the kaiju thing makes a lot of sense, in-series Mechanical beasts are just called kikaiju.

I'm not sure if "real and super" is a good divider either really. It separates some stuff by tone and appearance, but arguably it's all robot nonsense again in the end.

Voltes V plays well into that second point; technically the Voltes team is part of a military establishment, but would you really call Voltes a military show?

>>85939100
Fundamentally, yes, but we're not talking about fundamentals.

Words are like flavours. You can't always put them in boxes that never overlap with anything else.
Things can "taste" similar and some people will "taste" a greater difference between two things while others won't "taste" any at all.

Japanese and Western walking warmachines are both very similar. Definitely.

But there is generally is a difference, even if you can't quantify the exact difference.
It's like describing the difference between Coke and Pepsi.


The google tests shows that there is a difference in the "taste" of mecha and mech.
Mecha are generally humanoid and more like giant humans. Smoother lines and more fantastical.
Mechs try to be grounded and generally don't try to look like humans (aside from bipedalism, which is common).

You can have Japanese robot animes that have more of a mechish feel (like your image) and you can have Western robots that feel more mecha than mech.
Pacific Rim, for example, rides a little closer to the mecha side in terms of Crimson Typhoon or Gypsy Danger, but Cherno is more Western mech style.

It's a spectrum that is based on feeling. So it's really hard to hammer down. But there is a spectrum.

>>85939127
>I don't want to sound rude but I've never really heard of that destinction, not even online.
The google image search test shows that there is a distinction in the general groupthink

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>>85939306
>Mecha are generally humanoid and more like giant humans. Smoother lines and more fantastical.
>Mechs try to be grounded and generally don't try to look like humans (aside from bipedalism, which is common).

I don't need Google to tell me that ain't true.

>>85939242
>Voltes V
I'm an /m/ neophyte, wut be dis?

>kikaiju
I think today we would translate this as "mecha kaiju", but the older translation is reflective of a time prior to a familiarity with Japanese monster tropes, so the American concept of "mechanical beast" or "mechanical monster" was a good approximation of what exactly is connoted by kaiju. Shit's fun to talk about.

I think the real and super divide was more articulated by people within the industry, such as its creators, and for better or for worse they became the talking poitns (point of comparison: Scott McCloud established the framework for discussing comic book rhetoric). That doesn't mean we have to take the terms as gospel, and as signposts of the genre they've been interrogated and made complex.

I think tone and appearance both lend themselves towards establishing different aesthetics, which mecha have used to make a variety of points. Shit's hard to talk about tho.

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>grounded
I could post some SRMTHFG if that helps.
Or Acceleracers, that'd work.

>>85929740
>>85929769
>>85929786
>>85929799
>>85929819
It´s Animatrix all over again

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>>85939306
>The google tests shows that there is a difference in the "taste" of mecha and mech.

Wait a moment, anon.
Do you happen to be a fan of any work in the genre or are you someone with a blank slate?
Because Google tailors stuff specifically according to what you've been looking at.

For instance, I could put "How to become the next Fuhrer and form the sixth Reich" and it would still show me a picture of a pony in there.

>>85939382
You have difficulty with generalizations, eh?

Tell me when a shoe stops being a shoe and becomes a boot instead.
You can't draw a stiff line with only one type on one side and only the other on the otherside.

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>>85939430
You can just do it in Incognito mode so it doesn't use your references

Anyways, while we're pitching fits about definitions, can someone tell me where power armour stops and mechs/mecha begin?

>>85937609
>So a pile of poorly drawn complete shit
no, I'm talking about Titan.

>>85939306
I think the real difficulty when talking about two cross-cultural concepts which are ultimately more similar than different, and which to boot have influenced each other greatly over the years, is the difficulty of navigating both translation and the particulars of the concept.

Transformers embodies this difficulty: in Japan it's clearly a mecha show, whereas in America it was science fiction with giant robots. Although considered an American show, the Japanese brand of Transformers had a distinctly separate feel, including a season full of mostly humanoid characters (and KissPlayers...but that means talking about KissPlayers).

>>85939446
Not him, but I have to say that the distinction feels a bit false, it's drawing a generalization from too few samples and ignoring a lot of other examples. The term "mech" might not be fully synonymous with Jp. メッカ, but the two terms do not imply anything more specific than "piloted robot".

I think where the argument that Japanese mecha are "humanoid" while American mecha are "walking vehicles" fails is that it's drawing up a divide which really doesn't exist.

>>85939480
Gonna be honest, senpai, I don't think the distinction is rooted in actual hardware. Power Armor are mech-like suits that fit more into the category of "personal clothing" or "combat armor" whereas mobile suits and mechs are more in the category of "artillery" or "combat vehicle". The difference is conceptual rather than reflected in function or form.

>>85939480
>You can just do it in Incognito mode so it doesn't use your references

Are you sure? Because I wanted to give some proof to anon by showing both mecha and mech on mine which is practically alike but pony fan art appeared.

The last thing we need is to call in that Barney idiot but it kinda goes against what you've said about a blank slate.

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>>85939392
It's a normal Super Robot show. It's absolutely nothing special really, it's about a combining super robot, Voltes V, and its crew, the Voltes team, in their fight against the aliens known as the Boazanians, horned humanoids.
It's kind of interesting towards the end as the Boazanians lose themselves to backstabbing and the Voltes Team starts to find out more about itself and the origins of their machine, but otherwise it's a normal MOTW show.

Mecha doesn't have to be and isn't really super hard to talk about if you just lump it all together as one big thing. Like, Super and Real, they're there, yeah, they aren't super hard lines, yeah, but they're lines. It's no solid deal, but a deal it is. I don't think most nips think about it super hard at any rate, most Japanese kids see fictional robots nowadays as old fashioned regardless of the robot's tone or appearance.

There's a chart, though I can't find it now, which some Japanese guys made to compare various robot franchises in terms of super or real. It was a four-side chart with levels of idealism and pragmatism, with stuff like VOTOMS falling hard into low idealism and high pragmatism, and stuff like Ideon falling into low Pragmatismand low idealisnm, with stuff like Gundam falling into the middle.

>>85939446
I've been saying this entire time that your distinctions aren't really solid. They aren't yo. I've posted enough examples to show this; others too have spoken in a similar vein. Take it how you like.

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Does he kinda count as western?

>>85935682
So wait, is that a picture of a person piloting Big Guy piloting something else?

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>>85939480
IMO it goes like this:
You sit in mecha.
Power Armor you move in.
The end.

A Scopedog or any other AT is not power armor. You sit in it and pilot it with pedals and levers. Anything you "wear" is power armor.

You get stuff like mocap where this is harder to define, but this can be distinguished by how much room the pilot actually has inside of the machine. Could they walk around a little if they wanted? Mecha. Move their hand and the hand will always move? Armor.

>>85939545
>it's drawing up a divide which really doesn't exist.
I think there is a divide. Or at least two overlapping but separate loci.

If someone gave you 100 random sampling of piloted robots, both from the West and from Japan, you'd be able to tell them apart most of the time from their designs.
You won't always be right, but you'll be right often enough to be able to generalize.

>>85939602
It's Big Guy piloting his kickass ship car, which he promptly rams into the super dinosaur after flying across the earth.
Basically a guy in a suit in a ship.

>>85935414
Whats the sauce on this, Courage the Cowardly Dog?

>>85939571
>Voltes V
You don't think I'm missing out by skipping it? I think you're right, it lives up to its genre conventions more than anything else.

>Mecha doesn't have to be and isn't really super hard to talk about if you just lump it all together as one big thing.
Dividing it up into little bitty things is the (sometimes foolish) obsession of /lit/ and genre theorists. Mapping out the conventions of a genre introduced in translation to English-speaking audiences is fascinating and fucking hard. It helps to convey or theorize the complexity mecha shows are capable of reaching, or understanding what influences drove the creator/how the native audience understands mecha vs foreign audiences.

>>85939576
I'd say it's American-Japanese: Spider-Man is imported to Japan as a foreign US product, but was localized and adopted by the native culture to be Japanese. Much like how we consider certain American interpretations of Godzilla just as American as Japanese films (GINO notwithstanding).

>>85939637
I think that generalization is drawing more from the fact that a certain type of mecha have become popularized in Japan, and so the sample is inordinately skewed. Humanoid mechs might be popular, but they are by no means exclusively Japanese. My issue with the divide is that it ignores how Americans and Japanese understand science fiction, as mentioned earlier in the thread (>>85939153) sci-fi in the US does not classify "giant robot" as its own genre.

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>>85939637
Not him, but I dunno man.

>>85939689
Yeah, you wouldn't be missing much if you didn't watch it, but I'd encourage you to watch it if ever you'd like some simple super robot shenanigans.

If you want OG Super Robot shenanigans, Mazinger Z is the way to go. Just make sure to grab the Discotek subs if you want to watch it in actual English, otherwise your options are crabsticks or subs with waaaay more cursing added in.

>>85939668
Yep.

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>>85939637
>You could tell them apart.

I call bull on that one.
If you got someone who never came in contact with the things, I really doubt she or he could possibly tell them apart properly.
You could even skew it by filling the Japanese quota with the realistic shows while putting things like >pic related, Titanfall, Pacific Rim and so on for the western quota.
The person would then almost assuredly come out of the opinion that is pretty much the antithesis of yours.

>>85939836
Well, yeah, if your goal is to skew the results, I can make it look like Bollywood films hate musical numbers.

The point is to take a random sampling and that if there are general trends, they would be revealed.

The bottom line is that Japanese and Westerners both like different things. That doesn't mean that they hate everything the other likes, but rather just that there are two separate peaks of interest.

Those two peaks will have common features and I think those features are recognizable.
That's what I'm getting at.

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>>85939940
Not him, but the goal isn't to skew results, but attempt to reveal the inconsistencies in your earlier assertion using an example which is immediately contrary to your point.

I also agree with the point others have made that rubes to robots probably wouldn't be able to really distinguish between the two properly. Where would a robot like SCUD fall?

>>85940050
Definitely Western styled even though it is Japanese. That doesn't mean though there aren't trends.

Really, this argument is the same as the one about WRPG and JRPGs.
Like Dark Souls, for example. Would you call it a JRPG?

>>85935454
Do you have a website or anything we could look at?

>>85939940
>The bottom line is that Japanese and Westerners both like different things.

I think my underlying disagreement on the mecha/mech distinction is that it's mistaking the popularity or genre oversaturation of Gundam-like humanoid mechs for the entirety of the genre itself. The appeal to a general Japanese fandom is more reflective of the marketing and production concerns which go into each show, and less significant when we talk about the contours of the genre. Important works in genres of fiction can be popular or unpopular, works like Gundam or Eva became mega-hits, but other significant works like Ideon received far less fan support.

That's talking about what is produced in the genre rather than what constitutes the genre, and if we are looking at all Japanese and American fiction involving mechs (the specificity that we are comparing Japanese and US concepts of giant robots should not be overlooked) the distinction between "humanoid" and "vehicular" falls apart. Neither one is especially "Japanese" or "American" in design, and in fact the cross-cultural influences have further complicated that distinction:

The Gundam and Pegasus are specifically designed with American colors in mind, whereas Pacific Rim's mech designs are obvious homages to kaiju and robot anime. Neither US or Japanese concepts of giant robots can be fully disentangled from each other.

Why haven't you started building mechs, /co/?

>>85940100
You're making my point though.

Atlas was designed as a Japanese style looking Western mech.

You see what I'm getting at?
If there truly was nothing you could call a "Japanese style giant robot", then how would they be able to make a mech that is recognizable as being Japanese styled?

>>85940115
I wouldn't call Bayformer design as particularly Japanese. Very humanoid yes, but also viscerally mechanical. They're not even "mechs", so the point is somewhat moot.
>>85940133
The two standing robots are definitely Western styled, but the transforming plane is not.

With Western style designs, there seems to be a mandate to seem as plausible as possible.
That's why Japanese style robots generally have 5 fingered hands while Western style prefer grippers and claws.

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>>85940235
>The two standing robots are definitely Western styled

Hold the fucking phone, anon.
Those destroids appeared back when western idea of a piloted robot contituted pic related.

>>85940235
>Atlas was designed as a Japanese style looking Western mech.
No, Atlas is actually a copied picture of a Scopedog with an added radar dish.

>>85940210
Maybe you can't define a genre by it's most popular aspects, but you can definitely say that popularity defines influence and style.

Think of art. How do you define an artist's style? Well you look at all their art and pick up the aspects of each painting that repeats itself. If something appears only once, you can hardly say that it defines the style of the artist even though it is indisputably still apart of the artist's work.

There is still a style to Japanese giant robots. That style isn't consistent across all forms of Japanese giant robot anime, of course, but there is still a flavour and style.
Same for the west.

You're right that there's no way to untangle the two styles given the years of cross-pollination, but I think it's a bit restrictive to ignore that there can be stylistic loci.

If I draw a giant robot that looks like a man and fights with a sword, what style would say it is in?
The answer is, of course, Japanese. But that doesn't mean Pacific Rim doesn't exist or that it isn't American.

Styles and trends exist.

>>85940235
> how would they be able to make a mech that is recognizable as being Japanese styled?
The counterpoint would be that certain aspects of mech design are falsely attributed as being specific to Japan, when really the circumstances of its production happened to take place in a Japanese geopolitical sphere. Similarly, describing certain aspects as "Western" (which itself groups together a bunch of European and American states) conflates geographic origin with aspects of mech design.

I really do not think that simply because one type is more popular due to market concerns that it is reflective of a greater trend within the genre. While aspects of Japanese culture are relevant for the themes of the stories, but ascribing aspects of these designs towards being "Japanese" or "Western" really just obfuscates discussion of the genre.

It's not a terribly relevant discussion to have, I think, because it's positing the difference as crucial when really there's more of a similarity between the two.

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Could we please go back to discussing /co/ cartoons with giant robots please?

>>85940315
Ok, you're obviously just fucking with me. Robotech isn't as old as 1968.

And an Atlas while obviously similar to a Scopedog is not just a "copied picture".
It's a fusion between the two styles

>>85940092
Are you referring to the picture?
What "western style" do you even mean? I don't get it.

>>85940350
The existence of styles and trends are within the greater locus of genre convention, what is popular as a trend cannot be conflated with what defines that genre. An example would be the MCU films, in which Avengers has posited a certain aesthetic in their superhero films. This aesthetic is not specific to the medium of its production (film), and can appear in comics as well, it would be a mistake to conflate that aesthetic with the limits of the genre.

Similarly, the popularity of one type of mech in Japan (and we have no hard data, I should mention, so we are talking theoretically or conceptually) only speaks to the appeal or establishment of that trend within the genre. Why certain formats of genre remain dominant is itself a complex issue, and the assumption that it is because "Japanese consumers prefer this aesthetic/style because it is native to their culture" obfuscates these complexities. Consumers could simply not be aware of alternatives, for example, and so important or significant aspects of Japanese mech designs could be overlooked, or the enduring popularity of humanoid mechs could be due to nostalgia rather than purposeful or thoughtful artistic design. The /co/ comparison would be to note that while people can refer to Spider-Man/Batman/Superman as common superhero archetypes, casuals would be hard-pressed to include Swamp-Thing within the same category.

I'm not denying that artists can associate region with style, as we clearly have here, but that artistic style and art theory are more closely connected with the theme of the work itself rather than the area of its origin.

>>85940453
I never get why /co/ shrinks from interesting discussion, this is clearly relevant to cartoons with giant robots and involves both discussion of those cartoons and their Japanese counterparts. If that doesn't count as true discussion, I don't know what does.

>>85940350
This.

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>>85940467
Not him.

You have not seen the two side by side. Nor, evidently, have you seen the other Battletech mecha which are taken directly from Japanese sources.

Battletech's earliest mecha designs were quite literally born by copyingJapanese mecha and then adding on lines, extra angular parts, etc to existing lineart. These were sourced from Dougram, Macross, and others, including VOTOMs, to reach initial designs which would be changed further over time due to copyright fuckery.

Case in point: This is Battletech's Goliath. It is in actuality a Crab Gunner with lines added on. The end.

>>85940453
I'd love to talk about them more if it weren't for the fact that they're either too few or too small, or uncared for or all three.

What fuckin' robot cartoons do we have? Just look at how much of the initial posts here are just Exo Squad. Where's the Robotboy? SRMTHFG? Acceleracers? Ruby Spears Mega Man? MLAAtR? Acceleracers? SBT?

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And for comparison, Dougram's Crab Gunner.

>>85940560
I don't specifically disagree with anything you've said, but I think we're just having an issue of seeing the forest through the trees.

Like if I told I was writing a story about a man who's family was killed and then decides to fight crime, what would you say it resembles? A comic book of course.
That doesn't mean all comic books have male heroes who fight crime due to parental trauma. But a lot of them do and the most popular ones have enough influence that type of archetype is immediately recognizable as being indicative of the genre.
It's synecdoche, right? A part of the whole gains so much influence that the part can stand for the whole, even if it isn't the biggest or most numerous part of it.
Like people say "The Oval Office" when referring to the White House.

You can do the same thing to any group of things. Cars for example. If you ask a car fan to describe how Ford cars look or Audi or what have you, they can give you generalization about how they look. That doesn't mean no other brand has cars that look that way or that the brand in question never makes cars in any other way.

I suppose what I'm ultimately describing is platonism.

>>85939637
>If someone gave you 100 random sampling of piloted robots, both from the West and from Japan, you'd be able to tell them apart most of the time from their designs.
>You won't always be right, but you'll be right often enough to be able to generalize.
This.

If someone showed you, say, a "Japanese-style giant robot," you'd guess it were Japanese and maybe vice-versa, because honestly, how often do Westerners make the sort of Japanese mecha you find in Gundam, Eva, Macross, Gurren Lagann, and so on?

>>85940706
>>85940725
Wow that's some terrible plagiarism. They were even lazy enough to copy the paint job. At least they changed the number.

But still, I can salvage part of my point. What's the difference between the two?
Battletech, the lazy bastards that they evidently are, obviously didn't both to make too many changes. Not even enough to escape being accused of copy right infringement.
So what changes they did make was to make them more appealing to the West.
So how are the two different? The differences therefore are some of the fundamental differences in their respective audiences

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>>85940829
I've posted various Xabungle mecha through this thread and even then one guy said "western styles" whilst looking at the lineup of the TRAD 11, Gallop, and Crab models.

I could actually point out a particular robot used by the mafia in SCUD which'd fulfill some of those requirements, a coupla Dexter robots, SRMTHFG again, etc.

>>85940706
>>85940725
>>85940956
Battletech didn't plagiarize those designs, they licensed them from Macross, Crusher Joe, and Dougram.

>>85941029
That one's obviously Japanese because of how offensively ugly it is.
And not like ugly in a cool way.
Ugly in a stupid way.

>>85940956
It's not plagarism; it was legal at the time. Though there were legal hangups that changed this, it WAS legal then.

Battletech is an old and respectable franchise which has since branched out in mecha design.
>>85941045 summed it up.

Were you to point out any real differences, it'd be only that there's extra lines and some other bits.

>>85941029
Isn't this Kondo and not Kobayashi?

>>85941076
Says the Battletech fan.

>>85941029
thicker

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>>85941116
Yeah, general rule of thumb is Kobayashi is styled like the one on the left and Kondo's the one on the right.

>>85941029
>I've posted various Xabungle mecha through this thread and even then one guy said "western styles" whilst looking at the lineup of the TRAD 11, Gallop, and Crab models.
Sure, but how often does the EXACT opposite happen? Honestly what you're saying to me is that Japanese mecha design is quite diverse and within each mecha show, there are multiple types of mecha that might be grouped into "Japanese-style" or "Western-style," depending on their purpose or function.

But even still, Japanese mecha design as a WHOLE still errs to one side.

>I could actually point out a particular robot used by the mafia in SCUD which'd fulfill some of those requirements, a coupla Dexter robots, SRMTHFG again, etc.
You're referring to Western designs that are similar to "Japanese" mecha? How many of those were conceived as explicit homages to Japanese mechs? I mean, mecha is a whole genre over there, to the point where it pervades Japanese popular culture as a whole. It's far more niche over here, to the point where mecha fiction period is much more rare. There's been like, what, 5 mecha cartoons since the 90's?

Also,
>that mech
That is so obviously Japanese. That's a Dom from Gundam iirc, modeled after samurai armor as well, I think.

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>>85931909
>not knowing that the original Battletech used licensed mech designs, including from Macross
You must make /m/ proud.

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>>85941076
It's down to taste, then.

>>85941116
I can't for the life of me remember.
I won't lie, I prefer the vanilla Dom.

>>85941142
Gotcha.

>>85941173
I'm pretty sure it's Kondo. Kobayashi never really used zimmerit.

Also, both of those look like Kondo's style.

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>>85941194
>modeled after samurai armor as well, I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmerit

>>85941216
good lord

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>>85940818
>f I told I was writing a story about a man who's family was killed and then decides to fight crime, what would you say it resembles? A comic book of course.

I think my issue there is that it would connote to me a great deal of revenge stories beyond Batman, which I think is a flaw in hypothetical statements (and it's not really your fault: it is a reasonable assumption that I might immediately think of a /co/-related material rather than something /lit/ or /tv/-related).

I can see your point that humanoid mechs have made their mark in a Japanese market, but I don't think you can extend that point to say that humanoid mechs are at their core an essentially Japanese creation, or that they speak of something fundamental to the genre of mecha anime. Rather the point should be worded that humanoid mechs are a dominant depiction within mecha anime, and their relation to the area of their production should be qualified as being particular rather than essential.

In other words, Japanese creators happened to create humanoid mechs, and it is true that humanoid mechs are prolific in Japanese creations. That means that the dominant form of mecha anime involves humanoid mechs. Correlation does not imply causation, humanoid mechs happen to be popular in Japan rather than essentially being Japanese. When we discuss the impact of mecha in Japan, we will undoubtedly ask the question why mechs look humanoid, but that is a discussion of the particulars of the genre within Japan rather than it's essential or universal characteristics.

>Platonism
To be honest this is more a literary discussion, although it is involved in the ontology of genre and art-form. Rather than describing the relationship between physical and metaphysical objects, this is discussing cultural and literary demarcation within science fiction.

Even if we don't end up agreeing, I really fucking appreciate this thread, brah.

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>>85941216
Kit never.

Same goes for this beautiful and elegant fucker.

Fuck you Bandai.

>>85941262
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmerit
Isn't the design itself modeled after samurai armor though?

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>>85941106
>Were you to point out any real differences, it'd be only that there's extra lines and some other bits.

The big difference is the angularity of it.
There are rounded parts on the Crab but none on the Goliath.

Western styles prefer sharp edges to rounded corners.
Even Japanase "Western" styles generally till do this.
Like the ones in this image.>>85940050

My personal hunch is that it's due to the proximity of Japan to the Soviet Union.

Compare the Apollo lander to the planned Soviet one.
How would you characterize the differences?
Would you say the differences are similar to the type of differences you'd see between Japanese and Western giant robots?

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>>85941338
No? You're thinking of this guy.

>>85941359
Oh, well.

Nevermind.

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>>85941214
He knew already and was using that to point out the problems of the question.

>>85941194
I've seen it happen with Xabungle a few times, but as we know entire franchises can be conflated as "western", such as for example Dorvack, several of whose designs were straight up turned into Transformers with few edits. I'm still not sure if you've seen enough anime to really say the rest.

You asked me if I could point out Western robots similar to those of the East; I did.

Also, the Dom's armor there is not modeled on Samurai armor there, but an actual form of tank armor, now outdated.

>>85941216
>It's down to taste, then.
You really think that bloated whale corpse of a machine looks good?
It looks like thunderthighs Godzilla fucked a trashcan.

>>85941381
>You asked me if I could point out Western robots similar to those of the East; I did.
And again, how many of those were meant as homages to Japanese mecha anime or were ostensibly inspired by Japanese mechs?

When's the last time we ever got an unironic Japanese mech?

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>>85941389
Taste yo. I already said I preferred the vanilla Dom. I think the alt. Dom has charm of its own, but I still like vanilla.

I like the Xamel and would like a kit of it. If you think it's ugly, that's fine.

>>85941326
If you're willing to shell out for MSIA or learning to do GKs (and shelling out even more) you can get a Xamel at least.

>>85941450
I'd argue Robotboy falls into this pretty well, as well as perhaps Bots Master. ATLoK had a robot, right?
Shit man we have a Voltron reboot.

>>85941232
Oh yeah, I meant that the Dom was Kondo's.

>>85928084
I think the West is capable of making cool robots. I think a fair amount of the non-licensed Battletech designs are good, like the Atlas and Awesome, as well as the ones that evolved from the licensed ones. Syd Mead directed the Turn A Gundam, though it got cleaned up a bit for the final animation design, and I think it's pretty cool.

I feel like a lot of designs are based on trying to look realistic or feasible when they're inherently unrealistic, or based on a 50s raygun gothic aesthetic that's just kind of hung on. I don't think they're necessarily bad or not cool most of the time, just that the aesthetic isn't really up my alley.

>>85941518
>Shit man we have a Voltron reboot.
Voltron was always adapted from actual Japanese anime, though.

>>85941458
But I want to build -and- pose it. The only reason I settled for the MSIA Baund Doc is because it's my all-time favourite MS.

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>>85941326
Baund Doc was such a cool and out-there design, I don't even care how weird it is, it's just so memorable.
It's one of Kobayashi's designs, he's used it as the basis for the Gump in Dragon's Heaven.

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>>85941541
Oh yes, but I think it speaks to the oddities of this argument that it's doing so well, don't you? People, if only here in the US, seem always to think of it as a western despite it's origins. It speaks more than what I've said has, I think.

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>>85941597
You mean Gampe.

Which, by the way, is objectively the best mecha design of all time.

>>85941642
Do they call him Wheel Dick?

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>>85941664
Oh yeah, my bad.

>>85941642
>Oh yes, but I think it speaks to the oddities of this argument that it's doing so well, don't you? People, if only here in the US, seem always to think of it as a western despite it's origins. It speaks more than what I've said has, I think.
To be fair, it was "adapted" at a time when the West didn't know much about anime and anime on Western television was a rarity. Hell, did people even really know it was Japanese back when it first aired?

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>>85941350
You do get some more rounded robots in US fiction the further back you go sometimes. Just look at Robbie of forbidden planet fame. I do see what you mean a little, but some stuff nowadays like Wall-E's shipbound robots also make me think we have something for roundness.

>>85941554
Hey man I want Einerad and Gedlav kits but I'm never gonna get 'em. You have something for now, at least.

>>85941687
Xabungle's a boy, I guess Galliar is too.

>>85941519
>or based on a 50s raygun gothic aesthetic that's just kind of hung on.
There'd be no issue with this if this aesthetic wasn't nowadays exclusively used for parody and comedy. I want a serious and unironic robot work with this aesthetic, goddammit.

>>85941787
Iron Giant?

>>85941799
Great movie, but Iron Giant itself has that dumb 80's underbite which makes the design feel too modern.

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>>85941867
>80's underbite
>modern

?

>>85941867
Underbites are older than that.

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>>85941926
Oh, well.

Shut up.

I guess I just had this faggot on the mind.

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>>85929755
You didn't even post the movie's best design.

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I like this thread.
I hope everyone's enjoyed this thread as much as I have.

>>85942109
Good god, that version of Minerva makes my eyes bleed.

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>>85942151
Anon, that's Diana A
Minerva was a one-shot wonder.

I liked Diana, she still jobbed but was clearly better than Aphrodite

Mazinger had a surprising number of female robots if you think about it. There's five giant-sized ones in the series at least, with what, at least four humanoid female robots? It's too bad there were no Gamia Q triplets.

>>85942261
Wow, I'm fucking up real hard tonight. Though you can't deny that they look very similar.

>>85942261
>I'm just gonna put a face on the chest
This is one of the weirder things of Nagai's designs. I guess maybe it's left over from Devilman, and it works well enough with Ankoku Daishogun, but the one in the pic is weird as hell.

>>85936931
>Also, censors won't let living characters be gored to death or blown to bits in mediums marketed toward children or general audiences, but it's fine if that happens to robots, giving the impression they're weak.

this

every time i see a giant robot or mech or whatever i'm just counting down the seconds until it gets trashed with ease

that stuff only exists to show how badass wolverine and the hulk are

and it's not just mechs it's technology-themed characters in general

sentinels are hopeless jobbers

iron man is even more of a hopeless jobber

cyborgs only purpose is to have the bad guy rip his limbs off to show that he means business, or to get hacked with ease

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In terms of comics, I think Chris Samnee can design some pretty neat mechs, though he doesn't often get that chance.

>>85942549
That looks alright, not so hot on the hands or lack thereof. Is it a new version of Frogman or something?

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>>85942353
It's true. I guess it's because they're intended to be similar to Mazinger, whereas Aphrodite was only ever meant to be the PLI's robot.

>>85942379
The original Danube (Rhine?)was waaay weirder. At least this Danube looks okay in general.

If I were to criticize I'd say that the anime Danube'd be a little more charming if Lorelai's face were just a flat decoration rather than an actual face that also talked and emoted [spooiler]and had a GIANT FAN IN IT[/spoiler]

>>85942627
Leapfrog

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Man, now I fucked up.
forgive the VLC it's all I have

Actually, some questions; are there any good ABC Warrior collections? And how and where can I get some ROM? I think I saw it being storytimed some time ago but never looked into it too much.

>>85930263
>>85939510
I like the show but can't dig Titan's design. Clear armor is a terrible design choice and I've never been a fan of lips of stoic robos.
The component mech designs were much better.
Space Titan is pretty cool though.

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>>85942741
Likely you'll find them in either 2000AD or collected torrents, but admittedly I've never read the series myself.

O*N*E needs a fuckton of more love.
>X-Men related
>Sentinels
Which they will NEVER get for those reasons alone.

>>85938872
>There is no biological basis for this but it goes unquestioned.
Because it is so far removed from everyday life no one gives it a second thought. Meanwhile, robots run on 'science' and can barely stand upright. It's just adding another convoluted layer and limiting where you can go design wise.

>Again with the weird aversion thing; some guy using magic to pull off some weird stuff doesn't make any more sense
Sure it does. Magic is magic, it doesn't need to be explained whatsoever and can do whatever the setting says it can. Robots are supposed to have a foundation in science, where they barely work.

>How is a machine weaker than a man if it's destroyed?
Because the machine exploded when it was struck while the guy didn't.

>Are you talking about the old "use robots instead of humans as goons" thing?
No, I'm talking about how censors will allow violence towards robots they won't towards people.

>it depends entirely on how you depict them.
I am aware, I am pointing out why general audience may think robots are weak in sci fi.

File: tumblr_lzm0nrmrx_L1qcioteo1_500.jpg (98KB, 500x407px) Image search: [Google]

98KB, 500x407px

>>85928084
Ultra Magnus from the IDW comics

>>85944063
Ah damn, I completely forgot about the IDW Transformers designs.
I'd put them in the same category with the Battletech designs that evolved from the licensed ones, very cool even though they're derivative.

>>85944356
That they are. And as an added bonus, and the reason I posted him specifically, Magnus is both a mecha and a giant sentient robot at the same time.

Can we appreciate how amazing the intro to Big Guy and Rusty is?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogtz7iNKIt4

>>85946445
Man I really want to rewatch this show.

>>85941029
Is that thing made out of wicker?
Can I buy it at a Pier 1?
Does anyone on 4chan even know what Pier 1 is?

>>85939213
Apologize for the "I play pokemon go everyday" song.