Will Disney ever make another hand-drawn feature film?

>>85839268

There's no reason to. There isn't any inherent difference between a human drawing directly vs. a computer mediated animation.

Not unless 3D stops making them money and 2D comes back in fashion for some reason. They will chase the dollars.

>>85839268
No, but maybe a CG meant to look like hand drawn?

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>>85839268
Wait up mate let me give them a call

>>85839298
Yes there is, if you actually don't understand the differences then you know nothing about animation.

>>85839268
Nope.

>>85839369
This. When people think CG they think of the horribly ugly dreamworks 3d shit, but computers can now facilitate in making stuff that looks completely made by hand.

>>85839409
>horribly ugly dreamworks 3d shit
kill yourself, at least DW tries new things instead of that fairy tale sameface shit disney pulls since years

>>85839369
I can see this.

Paper Man is a good example of it, and it's frankly one of the most fucking gorgeous pieces of animation I've ever seen. I want more of that. I NEED more of that.

>>85839464
and look how they ended

>>85839382
Nothing Disney has done since was as computationally brilliant as this. So who really gives a shit if they do 2D again, it'll still look like crap.

>>85839542
>computationally
compositionally I mean (is that even a word?)

>>85839298
There is a huge difference between CG and 2D animation. Hand drawn animation takes alot of time and money to make. Do you have any idea how many individual frames there is in a second for a standard 2D animation? 24 pictures per second. CG makes alot less effort when it comes to animation because it's basically an easier way to make a stop motion animation.

>>85839398
Not according to the mighty dollar

Certainly doesn't help the last two 2D films they did went up against Avatar and Harry Potter

>>85839631
Shakesphere is credited with creating thousands of words by adding prefixes and suffixes. It's a perfectly acceptable thing to do as long as your meaning is clear.

>>85839369
The only CG I've ever seen that looked like the hand-drawn counterpart are the Naruto videogames.

>>85839720
>Hand drawn animation takes alot of time and money to make
Anime proves you wrong.

>>85839801
Anime has the advantage of having very well defined guidelines for animation. Lots of people perfect the skill of drawing in an anime style from an early age.

>>85839801
Anime animators work for peanuts and no breaks

>>85839877
This. They are forced to make hentai on the side for a living.

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>>85839770
pic related
It's a nice combination of looks, it's clearly CG but it's CG that copies the anime and manga it's based on so it looks good

>>85839801
That's because anime have alot less fluid and motion compared to Western animation. They use method that doesn't make alot of effort to animate. They mostly consists of loops and tweens. Also the Japanese animators are basically slaves.

>>85839897
>They are forced to make hentai
Well I'm not complaining
Hentai is a blessing

>>85839872
borderline slave labor helps too.

>>85839801
Anime is actually really limited animation-wise. I remember this picture saying AT costs three times the cost of an anime to produce per episode and most of /a/ explained that it's because most anime are basically fancy slideshows with little actually moving while everything in western shows are supposed to be more fluid like >>85839382

>>85839268
I wish

>>85839720
>24 pictures per second
>not knowing about 2s and 3s
Spotted the noob.

>>85840000
It's still alot of frames to work with compared to CG.

>>85839268
If you mean traditionally hand-drawn, then no. If you mean computer assisted with Toon Boom Harmony (what they did for Princess and the Frog and Winnie the Pooh), then sure, maybe. But if they did, it'd be almost purely as a celebratory thing (like "Hey, it's 2023, our company is 100 years old! Come check out this 2D animated movie!").

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>>85839920
You know I've never cared much for how fluid western animation was, I always thought the characters looked stupid always moving around all the time for no reason
Whereas I always felt it was much better and much more natural and a better way to deliver through the dramatic nature of the story/moment the Anime way to stop the camera/characters, like the dramatic standstills you see in Sergio Leone's movies
Frames like this are so emotionally charged. The fact barely if nothing's moving at all is what makes it so full with emotion, it grips the viewer. This is real cinematography.
I always enjoyed Anime much better for that, and I always it reputed it superior to the annoying pointless flaying around like retards of western animation.

>>85840084
>purely as a celebratory thing
This makes me sad and is probably true

>>85839801
>no worker's unions

lmao

>>85840084
>If you mean computer assisted with Toon Boom Harmony (what they did for Princess and the Frog and Winnie the Pooh)
I wonder if that's part of why Princess and the Frog underperformed. When I saw the previews, I didn't think. "Oh, 2D animation is so outdated, I don't want to see that." I felt like the visual style and animation wasn't up to the same standards as old Disney. To be fair, I knew before seeing the previews that Disney had massively cut down their team of traditional animators, but seeing it reminded me of that. you can see the lack of certain things.

>>85840119
then fuck off back to /a/ faggot

>>85840119
While you find it emotionally stimulating. I find it completely lifeless and dragging. There a some anime that do it well, but many times it's just to drag things out while the VA babble some bullshit in mid fight. This is one of the pet peeves in anime, I easily grow empatient when they do that shit in every episode.

>>85839951
>Anime is actually really limited animation-wise
Implying that's a bad thing.
You don't need to flay around like a retard to deliver on interest and emotion. Take Death Note for example. A shift in colours delivers the emotional impact of the scene flawlessly and much more powerfully than anything western animation has ever produced. A dramatic close up on the face, a detail of the eye, tell a lot more than all western characters moving around nonstop ever did.

>>85840314
In other words: Boring.

>>85840283
>While you find it emotionally stimulating. I find it completely lifeless and dragging
You have the attention span of a toddler. That's why you enjoy animation for little kids over animation for adults.

>>85840385
Bleach is animation for children though

>>85840372
I'm sorry, you have no taste.
Boring is western animation and retarded is pretending it's some great thing.

>>85839720

>There is a huge difference between CG and 2D animation.

I said there isn't any ***inherent*** difference. Hand drawing isn't fucking magic you retard, anything people can do computers can do. Just because they haven't done it in a lot of past animated films doesn't mean they inherently can't do it.

>>85840397
Death Note is not. Also Bleach is shonen, shonen is aimed at males aged teenage and over. Anime for children (pre-puberty) is kodomo anime.

>>85840385
It's not for adults. It's for adolescents. It's not my fault that anime consists of melodramatic soap opera crap.

>>85840463
You seriously have no idea what you're talking about.

>>85840499
>It's not for adults
Late night anime is specifically for adults. Only daytime series are created including kids in mind, and that doesn't stop the creators from making them enjoyable for adults too.

>>85840499
>It's not for adults
Did you know that the target audience for Love Live is single men in a age range of 30-50?

>>85839951
>everything in western shows
If you've seen an adventure time episode recently, you'd be wrong in comparing that to a classic disney movie
they barely move, it's more like a couple of walking cycles and then a close up to a characters face with a bunch of tweening
not actual tweening, but nothing that couldn't be replicated easily with even a trial version of toonboom

>>85840608
It's for creeps, right?
>>85840575
I don't know what "Late night anime" is.

>>85839268
>Disney's 2D animated films started turning to shit during the early to mid 2000's. Lilo and Stitch was the last one to be a big hit
>Meanwhile, Pixar and Dreamworks movies were dominating that entire decade
>"It's obviously because people only care about CG now and not because the new 2D movies are crap"
>They make Princess and the Frog and it does well but not Frozen levels of well and that can only be because it was a 2D movie and there couldn't be any other factor
>The 2011 Winnie the Pooh movie was deliberately set to be released alongside the final Harry Potter movie so that no one will see it and they can use it as an excuse for why they think no one cares about 2D anymore
I think the only way Disney would make a 2D film again is if another studio makes one that ends up being crazy successful. Or we get another Winnie the Pooh situation where they throw something out to die at the same time as some other popular movie.

>>85840549

Everything can be programmed. Especially everything humans do. You're not made out of magic you retard.

>it's a /co/ argues with a weeaboo episode
Considering his shit taste he was probably chased off of /a/ and is desperate for attention, don't feed him

>>85840859
Keep replying. It won't make you sound less retarded.

>>85840718
>I don't know what "Late night anime" is
Anime that airs between 23.00 and 04.00.
Evangelion was a late night anime originally, other notable examples are Berserk and Cowboy Bebop.

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>>85840928

>>85840940
They're all for adolescents. Also Berserk is overrated.

>>85840314
I thought you said Death Parade at first. I miss that show, it was fun.

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>>85840397
>animation for children
>implying shonen isn't the most beloved genre across all ages

>>85840119

>Using Bleach as an example of good cinematography of all the choices you have in anime

Also the "pointless flaying" is a statement that goes both ways as is the "cinematography" bit for anime.

>>85841094
>They're all for adolescents
Wrong. If you want to be pedantic about it, they're for young adults, which is the age range of 20-40. Though personally I won't throw a fit if some 50-year-old enjoys them too.

>Also Berserk is overrated
Why do you have to keep confirming your lack of taste with everything you post?

>>85841139

Is your picture supposed to be an argument about Bleach not being for kids? Because it only shows you know nothing about what's viewed as appropriate for which audiences in Asian countries.

You're essentially being the same type of person that thinks lesbians being in Steven Universe means it's adult.

>>85841245
Seriously I don't get why Berserk has been so praised. It's no different from any other anime. Is it only because of the eclipse thing?

>>85841297
>you know nothing about what's viewed as appropriate for which audiences in Asian countries
I know you think Asian countries are full of pedos that think showing sexual innuendo to little kids is ok but that's not the case.

>You're essentially being the same type of person that thinks lesbians being in Steven Universe means it's adult
Well yeah, kids don't care for sexuality.

>ITT: People clueless about animation

>>85839720

CG animation is far, far more expensive than hand drawn animation. Compare budgets and weep. The actual animation process is easier in 3D, but first you have to MAKE all those extremely high quality models and shaders and effects, which is a fuckhuge undertaking. With 2D you just start drawing.

>>85839920
>>85839951

Anime uses fewer frames, but the actual animation is still far more advanced than western TV shows because of the big usage of actual cinematography - camera angles and movement, perspective, lighting and so on - whereas most western cartoons just show characters with static colours interacting from a fixed camera angle. Anime almost never uses tweens, because they don't use puppet("Flash") animation. Western shows are the ones that rely on tweening and as a result get this overly smooth, flat, unnatural look, since limbs only move like paper dolls.

Anime is cheaper to produce because of slave wages and years of learning how to maximize efficiency and have the right priorities on quality vs budget - while a western cartoon puts in an equal amount of effort for every scene, an anime will use static faces with flapping lips for random dialog scenes, while conserving most of the budget for action scenes.

>>85839296
/thread

>>85843676
>CG animation is far, far more expensive than hand drawn animation

Maybe for shorts, or low quality garbage. Definitely not for high quality feature films.

>>85841297
Who the fuck thinks lesbians means SU is adult? I have never seen anyone say this.

>>85843721

>Lion King budget: 79.3 million USD
>Tangled budget: 260 million USD

You were saying?

>>85839268
Yes, in 30-50 years and it will be touted as a Renaissance piece.

>>85843835
Tangled encompassed a 12 year span of starts and stops, going into full production, then going back into pre-production, plus the cost of developing tools and techniques.

I do think that CG is marginally more expensive than Traditional, but Disney has outsourced much of it's traditional animation for decades, reducing the cost on it. The real trade off is in time and the ability to make easy alterations late in the production. Look at Zootopia, they were already making scenes when they totally re-wrote the story and changed everything, but it wasn't as hard as if it had been hand animated. All the old animation would have been scrapped and it all would've had to have been re-drawn. As it was, all they had to do was remake the scenes using existing assets.

There's also the fact that CG animation is still advancing, unlike traditional animation which hit a plateau decades ago.

>>85844265
What would it take to advance the field of hand-drawn animation? Any ideas, something like computer assistance?

>>85843676
2D goes through different phases before the final product. You just "Don't draw it" as if you are doing doodles. You have to make the animation coherent which takes a lot more skill. It's actually easier than to model and render than to animate frame by frame.

>>85844434
*actually easier to model and render

>>85843835
>Lion King budget: 79.3 million USD
>Tangled budget: 260 million USD

Those movies are over a decade apart.

Brother Bear cost 128 million to make while Finding Nemo cost 94 million. Both movies were released the same year.

>>85844434
But even during the earliest days on animation when it was a new medium without standardized techniques they were able to train artists to animate fluidly, and traditional has been proven time and time again to almost never cost as much as a top-shelf CGI production
>>85844638
Princess and the Frog cost $105 million, Up cost $175 million. (and Coraline cost $60 million) Released the same year.
Also Brother Bear is probably the most expensive traditional movie I can recall, Treasure Planet might've cost more but that had extensive CG elements

>>85844265
>>85844638

Emperor's New Groove: 100 million USD
The Princess and the Frog: 105 million USD
Toy Story 3: 200 million USD
Frozen: 150 million USD
Wreck-It Ralph: 165 million USD
Big Hero 6: 165 million USD

3D movies have only gotten more and more expensive relative to 2D ones. The difference isn't minor. And the most expensive 2D movies heavily use 3D visuals.

>>85844434

I'm literally a professional animator. I know everything about the work pipelines of both 2D and 3D. The exact same basic principles of animation apply to both, but then 3D animation has all the modelling work on top of that. Staying on model in 2D animation isn't that hard when you've got layers of onion skin helping you out. Pose-to-pose key animation isn't for amateurs, but that goes for 3D as well, because you have to deal with the unique problems that come with it such as gimbal locks and other rigging issues.

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>>85839268
so, wait, those aren't his eyes, those are bags under his eyes

>>85845230
This is pretty accurate, desu. 2d requires excellent draftsmanship as a baseline for animating, full stop. 3d requires basically everybody from concept to texture doing their job of making the character, and then you or a TD rigging up the model and THEN you animating it, then sending it off to dynamics/effects/myanus. 2d puts more onus on the individual animator to draw correctly, but that doesn't mean there isn't still a pipeline before and after requiring a diverse skillset. 3d puts more weight on that pipeline with more technical hurdles, the problems are just different.

>>85840314
>Take Death Note for example
Death Note is convoluted bullshit.

>A shift in colours delivers the emotional impact of the scene flawlessly and much more powerfully than anything western animation has ever produced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ubIhAlF46g

>>85846211
Also I just realized I'm not as experienced in the 2d pipeline so I can't exactly say from working on a project, but clean-up and inking and colouring all require fuckhueg amounts of manpower if you're doing it hand-drawn and without puppets. Puppets are a whole different ball of wax, though.

>>85839268

Maybe one day.

>>85839268
No.

But why do you care? Why do you care what Disney does, or doesn't do? Or do you really think Disney does things better than anyone else??

>>85846040
You're retarded?

>>85846278

Most of the workhours in 2D animation obviously go into cleanup animation, but that's all interns or outsourced to Korea so budget-wise it doesn't amount to as much as it really should. Colouring and inking isn't really an issue anymore because it's all digital.

The actual key animation process is generally faster in 2D though, because of how much time you spend in the spaghetti box of doom when doing 3D.

>>85839382
Why the fuck is this 21:9 ?

>>85846901
Disney wanted to make it the widest wide screen possible, to wow the audience.

>>85839382
Jesus Christ, i came.

>>85839268
You think you want it, but you don't.

>>85839268
Isn't Moana using some 2D stuff for Maui's tattoos?

>>85846901
Cinema had a weird period during the 50's/60's where studios made films in odd aspect ratios, probably to create a unique experience you couldn't replicate on TV.

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>>85839382

>>85846901
so are all the DVD releases extreme crops

>>85839268
We're past that point now
https://sketchfab.com/models/5dcebcfaedbd4e7b8a27bd1ae55f1ac3

>>85839268
mah

>>85839268
No, but they and the rest of the studios will keep making their credits 2D just to taunt us.

Well, okay, when Disney starts to tank in the market, they'll put out a big Fairy Tale throwback to the old days and make it 2D as a ploy to their audience. It's what they did in 89 and in 09.

>>85843676
>Anime uses fewer frames, but the actual animation is still far more advanced than western TV shows because of the big usage of actual cinematography - camera angles and movement, perspective, lighting and so on

Yep. Which is why I've always reputed anime to be superior.
Static faces with flapping lips for dialogue do not bother me, in fact they grip my attention at the dialogue better than anything western ever has. Western animators should learn from the Japanese. I want to do like the Japanese do.

>>85840223
Hey it is his opinion

>Disney is a multibillion dollar company
I'm surprised they aren't doing 2d. All they gotta do is make it about a pretty white girl and have a catchy tune. Americunts can care less if it's 2d or not.

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>>85839398
it's like moving a puppet in 3d. once the models are finished and the animation "bones" are in place, its just a matter of tweaking the model slightly every second to make a scene.

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>>85839268
There is no real interest or demand for traditional hand-drawn animation in this country. CGI essentially killed it off and is ironically more expensive to produce. People in this day and age don't give half a shit about the work that goes into animation like they did in the old days. As long as there's a half-assed CGI film full of dick jokes and waifubait released at some point every year, everyone is satisfied.

I just wish Disney would do both. Movies like Wreck it Ralph benefit greatly from being CG, but Frozen, Big Hero 6, Zootopia and soon Moana would be far superior in 2D.
But because retarded general audiences have a hateboner for 2D and Disney seems to become a retard when it comes to marketing whenever it's a modern 2D film we'll never get one ever.
Superior 2D Animation is dead, Pixar was a mistake.

>>85853453
That's a big bait

>>85853610
For (You)s.

>>85846901
Artistic choice. To imitate panoramic art of the time period.

>>85843676
>CG is more expensive
Actually it is but not (just) for the reason you wrote. Yeah making models is a pain in the ass but despite people like to think "so I made the characters it is smooth sailing from her" animating these characters is a FUCKTON of work and costs FUCKTON of money. You need to fine tune every frame by hand to make it look good. It isn't just: "I move her hand with my mouse and it moves life like".

>>85847320
>>85839382
Jesus Christ. Did Disney pay the animators 5 grains of rice per cell? Or was this the Avatar of the time?

>>85846040
Holy shit, you're right.

This is fucking me up.

>>85839495
We'll definitely see more of it once they've made the technology to produce it in a much more cost-efficient manner. Just a matter of time.

It's a shame Disney wasted 2D on the shitty social politics of PatF

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>be 3d artist
>have friends who work at dreamworks and illumination
>pretty much just cogs in the machine making uninspired shit written by Hollywood rejects
>everyone pretty much hates their job and don't even care about creative freedom, they just wish they could make something besides talking animals
>meanwhile, work in the videogame industry as a freelance 3d artist for both environmental and character models and rigging
>get to make crazy shit all the time and there's actually a very big range from kid stuff to adult stuff that's both stylized and realistic
>the content of the stuff is really interesting and even indie games like inside, transistor and bastion, etc have use of cgi that blows the fuck out of most animated movies
>triple a productions are really great easy jobs where you can make fucking anything if you're not just making crates and barrels, even shitty game reboots are modelling heaven, worked on the new shadow warrior game and the enemies were a blast to fucking make
>2d is still alive and well with a lot of 2d games still being released regularly, and with a hell of a lot more creativity put into them than the shit on TV

Let's be honest, senpai, people stopped giving a shit about standalone animation a long time ago and the only people still paying for it are families that don't know any better, all the disposable income teens and adults are spending their time on vidya, which is basically just a better version of animated series and movies since you can interact with them.

Maybe instead of copying anime and riding the Pixar dick you guys should've come out with your equivalents of doom and metal gear that proved that adult animation was commercially and artistically viable. But you didnt, so don't cry because you're working in a shitty ghetto industry where what people cosnider the best possiblet job is working at a studio that makes cgi moviedo about animals farting.

You made your grave, now sleep in it, old man. Vidya is the new hotness.

>>85853921
>basically just a better version of animated series and movies since you can interact with them
Lets not be hasty. There's very few games I would ever compare to the best animated series or movies story and character-wise, and probably not the ones that would usually get compared to them either.

Fundamentally, this is largely an outgrowth of the way videogames handle stories compared to tv shows and movies. After all, a good videogame story needs to play off of the nature of videogame, which is interactive and has a very different pace to movies and shows or books, rather than just being a movie you push buttons to make progress. So there are very good videogame stories, they just appear odd when considering them from a very strict, traditional perspective of media narratives. There are still good, more usual stories in videogames, I won't say all videogame stories simply must be completely wrapped up in interaction (ie. cutscene based stories can still be good in videogames), but these too are quite rare and require a particular eye towards writing as story where the way it is being delivered to the viewer is as someone making it move forward.

But a lot of the abysmal quality of videogame writing has less to do with this inherent conflict as it does with just being really dumb stories at their. Even the most "cinematic" videogames are designed as games first, not stories, and stories and characters must be reshaped to fit the outlines already made. People don't buy videogames for their stories, they buy them for the ideas they're being sold. So videogames usually just have some sort of hook, and then shit out writing for most of the rest of it. This is the standard so much that any even slightly solid, traditional story telling tends to make people jizz their pants and consider them to be super amazing stories. If it had just been a movie or show, people would've considered them average at best.

>>85846040
That was pointed out when it was taking off, nobody gave a shit.

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>>85846040
THIS
CHANGES
EVERYTHING

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>>85846482
His eyes are hidden under the eyebrows.

>>85846040
>>85854105
This
I tried my damndest to inform you retards.
But being the retards that you are, you thought I was the retarded one

>>85839495
>>85839770
>>85839904
What about something like Klaus? It's 2D with simulated 3D volumetric lighting.
https://vimeo.com/126287950

>>85844364
see >>85854451

>>85839324
This, when they made frog princess they choose the less appealing story for the 2D film to make it would bomb compared to their 3D recent releases, so they just can fully move to 3D.

Remember when as a kid you saw cartoons and automatically knew they were what you wanted to watch, but ditched most live action stuff as adult boring stuff? Same thing goes inside today's kids minds but with 3D animation.

>>85853587
This. Imagine how beautiful Frozen's ice castle sequence would have looked if they animated it like this >>85847320

>>85854451
The idea is great, but somehow it feels kinda stiff. It looks like a flash animation to me for some reason I can't really point.

>>85853762
Nearly bankrupted Disney. People didn't even like the movie that much.

>>85853921
But I don't play or like video games, and the stories and dialogue are universally utter shite compared to a good film

>>85852598

>Static faces with flapping lips for dialogue do not bother me

Not everyone can have standards as low as yours, though. Some people expect characters to be animated in an animation.

>>85844265
I don't understand this obsession with making cg films look as realistic as possible. If I want to see a literal forest I will watch a real life movie. I watch animation to see things I can't see irl

>>85853762
Sleeping Beauty cost 49 million dollars adjusted for inflation.

Probably eventually, for novelty.

>>85857789
That's still less than what a big-budget CG film costs. For $49M Sony could do Popeye in a mix of hand-drawn and 3D (for example 3D Popeye has a dream sequence in drawings), make it look amazing, and still turn a profit.

>>85844364
Anything to do with digital 2D animation really.

>>85856705
But you japs gonna chance that? Their target audience is japs not west. They dont give a shit about us because most of west doesnt pay for anime but would with those prices.

I say they should only make them for older audiences.