Can we now admit as embarrassing as 90s comics could be that

>>85828951
>90s comics
If you mean generally, then you're right.
Because outside Marvel and Image, it was a pretty fantastic time for comics.

If you just mean Marvel, then I disagree.
The decade was horrible for the company. The current people in charge may be awful, but they do have a few good books and the cringe-inducing ones mostly sell like garbage.

Hopefully the diminishing returns of these constant relaunches forces them to make changes in the next few years.

>>85828951
Pretty funny how everything's basically been taken to the opposite extreme. All the bulging muscles and the overall testosterone-fueled X-STREME aesthetic of 90s comics have given way to political correctness and just sheer, unapologetic girliness.

>>85828951
Nah.

Most of the worst things are going to end up forgettable trivia. In 20 years, autists will have new things to flip out over.

>>85828951
50 years from now, The Twenty Tens will be known as the decade where everyone was a flamboyant homo or an empowered woman with a pet man

>>85828951
Yes. The 90's had everyone drawn like they were permaflexing everything , over done liefield style missized body part type figures and 'everything was extreme'

but it gave birth to alot of classic moments. the xmen ruled everything, spiderman had his ups and downs but over all it was still fun.

today its flat out shit

>>85828951
Please
The most cringe worthy Marvel has been was a couple of years ago, when they stuffed their popular characters in several teams at the same time
Like Purple Arrow was on Cap's Avengers team, but was leading the Secret Avengers at the same time. Storm was in like 2 teams of X-Men on the west coast, and in the Avengers on the east coast
Now that was garbage

>>85829160
Were they flipping out about anything during the 2000s?

>>85829205
Nobody can forbid Goddess from joining as many teams as she wants.

>>85829215
YES

>>85829205
That's worse than making the Marvel Universe all about tween girls?

>>85829336
they are trying to broaden there demographics, god forbid they pander to someone under forty.

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>>85829215
Decompression was the worst thing to ever happen if you read any comics message board from 2005. People hated New Avengers because muh spider-man is a loner wolverine kills. A lot of X-fags hated Milligan and Allred's X-Force. Xorneto. Dudes were mad that Brubaker brought back Bucky. Disassembled, House of M, Civil War. Sins Past, OMD, mystical spider shit. That's just stuff I can remember off the top of my head.

Let's not even get into the dumpster fire that was DC.

>>85829387
>A lot of X-fags hated Milligan and Allred's X-Force
And now it's one of recommended books.
R-right?

>>85828951
This is unfortunately true. 2010s Marvel is literally the worst comics publisher ever.

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>>85829668
Anyone who doesn't read X-Force/X-Statix is fucking their entire life up.

>>85829668
Yea they hated it because it replaced Classic Xforce cuz it was selling shit. I thought it was JoeQs most sensible action desu.

Better X-treme than SJW.

>>85828951
I'll take childish ultraviolence over SJW garbage any day, sure.

>>85829387
>people complaining about Wolverine killing
Why? He's made for killing.

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>>85828951
How many 90's books were self-righteously preachy and actively mocked its fans?

Also, I still maintain that this was one of Electro's better looks.

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This was a great Scarlet Witch outfit.

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>>85831315
Hell this Hawkeye outfit was good, just needed toning down in the pouch department.

>>85831324
Hawkeye has been roidin' it up.

>>85831226
It was meant that Wolverine, who is a killer, should never bee an Avenger, even though most of them, like 75% of the Kooky Quartet) were reformed villains.

>>85831335
Talk about dumb, huh.

>>85831315
She looks like a Mortal Kombat character.

>>85831315
>>85831324
Your taste is shit.

>>85831360
Explain.

>>85829145
Meanwhile, in the offices, they're repeating the same mistakes they did in the nineties all so that they can make more money in the short term with no care about what it will cause in the long term.

>>85829336
If you can't see how that's hyperbolic, you're a lost cause.

According to this
http://marvel.com/comics/calendar?&offset=0&totalcount=43
Marvel had 34 main universe books come out last week.

Of those, the only ones that can conceivably be called "for tween girls" are Ms. Marvel, Squirrel Girl, Devil Dinosaur, Hellcat and Spider-Gwen. So 5 out of 34.

Wow, sure looks like Marvel has just left that traditional market behind.

At the end of the day, the problem with Marvel right now isn't that they have books for other audiences, and it's not that they have books with political stances you disagree with. The problem is that the majority of their books are just shitty. Nighthawk sucks, Silver Surfer sucks, Captain Marvel is ass, the entirety of Civil War II is a mess, GotG is a shit show, anything with the Inhumans or X-Men is worthless, and so on and so forth.

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>>85831315
Nah.

>>85828951

>Knightfall
>Knightquest
>KnightsEnd
>Contagion
>Legacy
>Cataclysm
>No Man's Land
>Death of Superman
>Funeral for a Friend
>World Without Superman
>Reign of the Superman
>Return of Superman
>Emerald Twilight
>Final Night

The 90s were pretty good.

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>>85828951
>>85829060

>>85832218
Parody, anon.

>>85832156
>Marvel

>>85829387
>muh spider-man is a loner
>probably has the most team-ups of any Marvel character
wew

>>85832003
That's shit, Anon.

>>85828951
You're own pic disproved your thesis. Sad.

>>85831298
This is a great cover

>>85829198
Are you saying that you DON'T want to be the pet man of an empowered woman?

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>>85832676
>He doesn't like Adam X, the X-treme

>>85828951
No.

>>85829387
>Decompression was the worst thing to ever happen
It fucking is. You pay for 25 pages of plot and get 12 pages of storyboards instead.

>>85829199
>but it gave birth to alot of classic moments.
AHAHAHAHAHAHA what

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>>85828951
that looks like an American shredder!

>>85828951
>Can we now admit as embarrassing as 90s comics could be that Marvel in the year 2016 is far more cringe worthy?
It is at absolute worst, a lateral move.

>>85831298
>How many 90's books were self-righteously preachy and actively mocked its fans?
A surprisingly large amount of them, actually, many of the 90s comics clearly hated the 90s aesthetic they were forced to use and subtlety was actively railed against.

>>85831298
Every single one that had an environmental theme, which by the way was every single one of them.

>>85829387
Maybe I'm young but decompression is a good thing. Very old comics actually suck most of the time because it's mostly a narrator explaining everything that's happening

>>85833819
Shut up, Bendis.

>>85833819
That was not because of decompression, that was a Silver Age thing which had mostly gotten phased out by the Bronze Age in the 70's and 80's (and honestly, they were just replaced by dialog then, and monologue boxes in the 00's, so not much really changed.) The overt narration was an artist issue.

>>85833819
When a story that can be wrapped up in 4 issues at most is then stretched to 8 or so issues it's a fucking problem.

>>85828951
>Adam must first saturate opponent's blood with oxygen. He usually uses various blades to injure the opponent and cause bleeding, thus oxygenated their blood. Also sometime he uses the trigger word "Burn" to activate his power.
>"Burn"
Is he the most anime /co/ character?

>>85833819
Fuck off

Is it /tv/ that comes here, having not read comics, to shit on Marvel because of politics/muh kinotrarian?

>>85828951
>there are people who still think Fabian Nicieza is a good writer

>>85831330
Hasnt he always been buff?

>>85833819
Decompression is good if you are binge reading but shitty if you are reading monthly. "Classic" style is good if you are reading monthly but frustrating if you are binge reading.

>>85834356
That is more than buff.

>1940s
DC> marvel

>1950s
DC>Marvel

>1960s
DC = Marvel

>1970s
DC < Marvel

>1980s
DC< Marvel

>1990s
DC> Marvel

>2000s
DC>>>>>>>marvel

>>85834358
Well said.

>>85834543
>e1980s
>DC< Marvel
Fixed. DC improved a lot after CoIE.

>>85834543
>>1980s
>>DC>Marvel
Fixed

>>85834096
Yes.

>>85834096
Yes, every other board is obsessed with trolling /co/. /co/ absolutely does not have a victim complex

>>85834569
DC took a shit in its pants after CoIE. With the exception of DKR and Batman: Year One, and *maybe* Man of Steel, all the interesting stuff that DC produced in the 80s emerged from the periphery.

>>85834096
Yes.

>>85829060
Even Image was better in the 90s than Marvel. At least they had some stuff like Astro City and The Maxx. After Marvel put an end to Epic it was all over. Even Image's goofy cape books had better art and coloring and equally mediocre writing.

>>85834676
>another silveragefag

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>>85834700
>Image's goofy cape books had better art

>>85834704
I'll take Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams on pre-Crisis Batman over their successors any day.

>>85834569
I never liked byrne's superman

Plus first half of 80s DC weren't so good.

>>85834700
Epic never did fulfil its potential, while Savage Sword should have bowed out gracefully in the mid-80s.

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>>85834756
>>85834771

Oh my yes.

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>>85834808
Fedoras, you say?

We all know DC was awesome in the 90's, but what gems did Marvel have among all the shit? All I read during that period was Spider-Man which was pretty good at least at the start of the decade with I think DeMatteis.

Oh and also Waid's Captain America.

Anything else?

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>>85832156
>Power of Shazam
>Supergirl (PAD)

>>85835022
Some would say Age of Apocalypse, but I just can't get past the mostly fuckawful artwork.

>>85835022
Oh and remembered a few:

>Busiek Avengers
>Busiek Iron Man
>New Warriors
>Foolkiller
>Thanos Quest

>>85835022
/co/ has a hardon for Dan Jurgens' Thor for whatever reason.

Marginalizing all 90's comics as xtreme shit is one of the easiest ways to spot a casual on /co/.

>>85835022
Peter David's X-Factor.

The kids of today should defend themselves against the nineties.

>>85835198
i would say age of apocalypse, and i would also say the artwork was just fine.

>>85835022
>spider-man
clone saga. try again

>>85835206
>New Warriors
Ha ha, nope.

>>85835022
Starlin
Darkhawk
Simonson's Fantastic Four

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Days of the Future Past is a 2 issues story, the Morlocks story is also 2 issues long.

We cant, and in fact dont get anymore classic stories that are only 2 issues long.

How is decompression a good thing then?

>>85834543
00's? Seriously?

Marvel had the Ultimate Universe and all those amazing X-Men stories and a huge string of great Daredevil runs and Punisher MAX and Bendis Avengers and Brubaker Cap and Nextwave and dozens more amazing titles.

DC was great too. 00's was a fucking golden age.

>>85835704
>dem legs
>dem feet
Fuck yeah, Claremont.

>>85829336
>a little girl is smarter than Reed Richards and Tony Stark is replaced by a girl with a porn name
If this is how they choose to broaden their reader base they will loose more readers than they gain. And guess what ? It's already happening.

Any idiot could tell Marvel if they want to improve reader numbers stop shitting on classic characters ( Reed being one upped by a child, the X-Men being ruined and shoved into a closet) and go back to what always worked. Seems to be working for DC right now.

>>85833034
gay

>>85835815
Comics sales have been declining since long before. Correlation =/= causation.

>>85835815
>Any idiot could tell Marvel if they want to improve reader numbers stop shitting on classic characters ( Reed being one upped by a child, the X-Men being ruined and shoved into a closet) and go back to what always worked.
Yeah, they should go back to the business model that was steadily shrinking instead of trying literally anything except writing the same story with the same characters over and over. It's what made Marvel great!

>>85835704

Occupy Avengers confirmed to only be 1 and 2 issue arcs

>>85833308
Magneto ripping off Wolverine's adamantium and Age of Apocalypse are certainly memorable.

>>85834543
>1960s
DC = Marvel

This is fucking wrong. Actually in the 60s Marvel was the new hot shit and their comics clearly FAR superior and sophisticated than those of DC.

>>85829371
It's not working and it's worthy of comment, regardless of how you feel about it.

>>85830521
I didn't really like it, but I read it. Twice.

>>85835717
This. It was the second reinassaince of Marvel after the pure unfiltered shit that were the 90s.

>>85836362
True, DC spent the next ten years trying to catch up.

>>85836242
Well, the practice of switching established characters out with a minority or woman is literally decades old and has never worked either.
Retelling the same stories with the same characters leads to shit like the Ultimate Universe, which was also shit.
It's lose lose for Marvel these days.

>>85828951
i thought that was captain boomerang until i saw the claws

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Look at all the pandering on this fucking cover. Is that a black woman? It's a fucking black woman! And I hear the steel guy is a Russian. Literal fucking Cultural Marxism in my /co/! And a Native Indian? Are you fucking kidding me with this white guilt shit??

I say we petition Marvel to bring back Lee and Kirby before Wein and Cockrum run X-Men into the ground.

>>85837096
>Marvel used to be SJW trash so it's OK for them to continue being SJW trash
No.

>>85837096
Literally the only person who likes Classic X-Men is Busiek and everyone makes fun of him for it.

>>85829145
> just sheer, unapologetic girliness
The irony being Marvel has stripped all their females of anything that makes them feminine. I'm waiting for Carol to announce her sex change and become Carl Danvers.

What I've gathered from this thread is that Marvel has been awful for about 25 years now.

>>85837096
Here's the main difference between Claremont's X-men and the garbage "diversity" of comics today: they created NEW characters (except Logan who was from TIH but you know what I mean) instead of trying to colorwash old ones.

>>85837170
Claremont run is still considered the goat.

And Busiek prefer's the Silver Age X-men anyway, so that's a moot point to bring up.

>>85837283
So what you're telling me is if this was 1961 you'd be pissed off about Johnny Storm.

>>85837096
I get what your saying- and I love the comic, but when I read that stuff, I feel like Clairmont and Co just wanted to use a bunch of diverse characters, not fill a quota or shore up their political credentials.
Oh, yeah, and unlike what they do now- it was good. That is really the key difference. The bitching is more a symptom of shitty comics than anything else.

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>>85835704
Remember when Bullseye broke out of prison, hunted down Elektra and killed her and she walk all the way to Matt's doorstep before dying in his arms, then Daredevil hunted down Bullseye and crippled him all in 1 issue? One of the best issues Marvel has ever produced.

>>85837317
Nobody reading comics in 1961 remembered the old human torch, and he had no recent history or ongoing or anything like that. He was effectively a defunct character.
None of that matters though, what matters is the FF worked.

Wasn't Claremont's X-Men during the 90s? I still have a bunch of X-Men(and related) comics from the 90s that my grandparents bought me when I was a kid. Some of them are pretty ridiculous, like 2099.

>>85837438
Claremont was on X-Men for a long fucking time (17 years) that extended into the 90s

>>85837317
Johnny Storm wasn't touted as a legacy to Jim Hammond, he wasn't replacing him. They just hadn't used Jim in forever and gave the name to someone else.

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>>85837373
The fan backlash at the time was real.

>>85837438
The Claremont run was 1975-1991.

>>85837438
Claremont's run reached the 90s, but for a very short period of time. When most people talk about X-men 90s comics they aren't talking about the ones Claremont wrote.

Yeah, this meme really needs to die already.

In fact, I'm considering making one of those /co/ recommendation pictures just for the 90s.

>>85837387
Please tell me Daredevil lives on 30th floor and there are no elevators.

>>85835524
The kids of today should defend themselves against the... what are we calling this decade?

The latter half of it, anyway.

>>85837294
Silver Age IS Classic X-Men. Claremont, Cockrum and Byrne took a C-List Lee and Kirby team book and made it the only Marvel book that could rival Spider-Man.

>>85837767
Claremont, Cockrum and Byrne is Bronze Age. If you're using classic in the sense that classic = old, then sure, Silver Age X-men is Classic X-men. If classic = great/unrivaled, then Bronze Age X-men = Classic X-men.

>>85837740
>what are we calling this decade?
That would be the 10s.

>>85837534
Sure, but the comics sold and we're a huge critical success. You can always find fans to bitch. There are letters on Kamadi bitching that he's too much like Thor. Thor, ffs.
I dropped Marvel, right before Jane became Thor, because the comics are boring. I assume most of the people who walked away did it for the same reason. The people bitching are just the ones who can't let go, it isn't surprising that they're bitter about random shit. The comics suck.

>>85835309
I specifically said Marvel not all nineties comics

>>85837961
You technically only specified Marvel in the 2016, not in the 90s. Reread >>85828951

>>85837955
All you keep doing is saying "but they were different" because back then you weren't the one that was pissed off.

>>85837534
That pic was done by a Marvel artist and the caption clearly states that opinions changed when the book came out. Further, that was just okd fashioned fanboy rage. What we have here is different and directed at comjcs that have already been coming out. Further UXM led to a sales boom and all kinds of awesome shit for Marvel Will Moon Girl?
That situation is only like what's going on now on the most cursory examination.

>>85838026
I'm not pissed off now. Not even a little. I am just kind of watching the debacle and trying to figure it out.

X-Cutioner's Song, Onslaught, and Age of Apocalypse make up the unholy trinity of soulfuckingly bad 90s X-Men.

>>85838026
I never said that even once, either.

>>85837955
>>85838046
See >>85836060

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>>85838046
>Further, that was just okd fashioned fanboy rage. What we have here is different and directed at comjcs that have already been coming out.
Oh yeah, fanboy rage never sticks around with people baselessly talking shit after the comic comes out! The fanboy outcry totally disappeared when the old comics came out, because that comic said so.

Why do you dumb shits always assume that the comics you don't like are failing and tanking the industry without even a single glance at sales? Comics have been growing for the last decade, Marvel and DC have had shrinking market space only because independent comic book companies have been rising faster than they have.

>>85838154
Duh.
That's because the comics suck and have sucked for a long time anon.

>>85838179
The rage was drowned out by the positive reaction. Are you familar with the history of UXM, anon?

>>85838232
Although that doesn't even annoy me as much as how when comic fans want to bitch about something having no artistic value, they go straight to sales as if it's the arbiter of merit as an art form. Comic book readers can't into business even slightly, yet they still want it to dictate the medium assuming that the numbers will back up whatever they want to happen.

>>85838275
I remember Ultimate X-Men being a big seller but also an incredibly sloppy mess that ended up being almost as embarrassing as Ultimate Iron Man.

>>85838281
B...but... Comics are failing. Someone told me that in this very thread.

>>85838245
I'm pretty sure it's because films, tv, and video games have long since displaced comics, old-time radio, and the pulps in the world of easily-consumed pop culture.

>>85838324
Uncanny X-men, not ultimate, anon.

>>85837096
ONE, when this comic was made nobody gave a dick about the X-Men. Not one single dick. It was cancelled, this brought it back, so why the fuck not make some new characters and try a new spin to maybe get some type of reader base interested in it?

TWO, these characters are actually interesting. Nobody is a Mary Sue, they all have personality beyond being black or Russian or blue demon guy, and they all contribute something new and special to the team. Look at the "diversity characters" that Marvel has now. Miles Morales has an instant win superpower that he uses all the time and adds nothing to the universe that Peter Parker didn't already add, woman Thor literally has no personality beyond being Thor but a woman and Captain Falcon is preachy as fuck with its ham fisted messages.

THREE, speaking of all three of those last characters I mentioned, these guys were all brand new characters. Storm wasn't All New All Different All Black Marvel Girl, she was fucking Storm. Marvel took a legitimate risk at letting Claremont actually try something new and different, with the only actual X-Man being Cyclops. Hell, that was the appeal of the book. Look at all this new shit! Come read this new shit! Could you even imagine nowadays Marvel completely taking Captain America, Thor, Iron Man and the Hulk off the table and, instead of race swapping or gender swapping them, creating brand new characters to act as their headline heroes? No? And that is the fucking problem.

>>85838232
Confirmation bias. People that feel a certain way only acknowledge evidence that agrees with them.
DC finally has a leg up on Marvel sales wise again after several years now, mostly because the majority of the big talent vacated Marvel, Marvel raised the price of their books, and a staggered relaunch do to book delays. All while DC is finally getting its shit together and having press releases for their very own relaunches.

But it's easier to say 'lel SJWs' is the reason.

>>85838345
But comics are growing, anon.

>>85838333
You have no idea how much the market has contracted since the mid-90s.

>>85838383
>comics are growing
Call me when today's bestseller figures outstrip yesterday's cancellation figures.

>>85838419
You mean the time when comics were at their ansolute bestst ever, anon? During the fall out from the varient cover foil wars, anon.
Say it isn't so!

>>85838419
Everybody and their dick knows about the 90s industry collapse, but that isn't recent events anymore.

>>85838457
That's going to be never, bestsellers don't outstrip cancelled projects in any medium, healthy or no. As long as there are a multitude of comics to read, there will be comics that fail to get noticed

>>85838483
>During the fall out from the varient cover foil wars
Which Marvel is bringing back like a bunch of idiots. Have you seen what they're doing to get Champions to sell 300k?

>>85838483
So, no, you don't know.

Another thing that is different about Lee/Kirby and Claremont/Cockrum progressive moves is they took fucking balls. Especially when the chief competetor to Marvel, DC was the only other place to work really and was notoriously racist.
Bendis aint gotta worry about being blacklisted.

>>85838670
You're getting increasingly shrill.

>>85834756
>Not Denny O'Neil on Question

>>85838591
>to sell 300k
Which is now seen as a high target.

Meanwhile, X-Men #1 sold 8.1 million copies in 1991.

>>85838699
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fall+in+comics+sales+over+time

>>85834676
Wonder Woman and the eventual growth of Vertigo.

>>85838831
http://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html

One of the first results in your own link, even.

>>85838483
Reading comprehension not your thing? Pointing to market contraction *since* the mid-90s indicates that Anon is contrasting the (high) sales numbers in the years *prior* to the mid-90s against the (low) numbers that became the norm *after* the mid-90s. The obvious inference being that it is laughable to speak of "growth" in the industry when the total readership is still a fraction of what it was as recently as the 1980s.

You might take a look at sales of Superman and other A-listers over a long period of time to get a better idea of the extent of market contraction.

>>85838104
Onslaught and Age of Apocalypse weren't bad.

>>85839531
Age of Apocalypse has its moments, but Onslaught is dire from start to finish.

>>85832156
>emerald twilight
>let's destroy Hal Jordan as a charactr
>good
he only good thing about it was that we eventuallly got HalSpec out of it, which was god-tier, but that could have ben accomplished through a regular death.

>>85834676
Wolfman's GL? OR do you count that as peripheral?

>>85839603
HalSpec was enough, bug was a mistake.

>>85839531
Anon, when was the last time you read them?

>>85838382
Pretty much. Only thing that really annoys me these days is the "tacticool" bullshit, that barely qualifies as a costume.

>>85837096
Those were original characters you dip shit

>>85840456
Yeah, because lack of originality is what really bugs the kind of comic reader who believes that Cultural Marxism is a thing.

>>85840695
I saw multiple anons being okay with Cho being Hulk. And quite a few of the people who didn't like Captain Falcon still thought he made the most sense to be Cap's replacement, alongside Bucky.

I don't think most people have a problem with these characters being replaced with minorities themselves. Green Lantern fans seem to be fine with Simon Baz and the new girl (admittedly don't read GL or its threads so I might be wrong). The reason anons are mad at this shift from Marvel is because it feels forced and less than genuine.

Plus, didn't Pearlmutter donate to Trump?

>>85840974
>The reason anons are mad at this shift from Marvel is because it feels forced and less than genuine.
"It feels forced" is the go-to response every time minorities are introduced. Always has been.

>>85837254
>Carl Danvers
That would be freaking funny.

>>85841128
I just gave four examples of times when that hasn't been the case.

Who was saying Simon was forced when he first appeared? What about Jaime Reyes? How about Surge?

>>85828951
You think he gets tired of getting his bro locs caught up in his shoulder blades?

Heh, "shoulder blades".

And if it means anything, I say Marvel's current push for diversity feels forced. I also think DC's whole Rebirth, while I like parts of it, feels incredibly forced, especially the whole thing with Superman.

Hell, I saw more people complaining about Kamala thinking in Doge memes than about her not being white.

>>85831324
not really, it makes SENSE for Hawkeye to have a lot of pouches, for trick arrowheads and whatnot.

Just have him USE them, as the main problem with PUCHES characters is that they never seem to use them.

>>85841128
But Ms.Marvel is perfectly fine. It was done decent sorta. Really hate the use of Carol in the book but that's because Carol will always be a garbage character. They should have pushed monica harder. She was always better.

>>85840974
>Green Lantern fans seem to be fine with Simon Baz
They absolutely weren't for years. The only thing that deadens that sort of outrage is time.

>>85841303
>Kamala thinking in Doge memes
Hard to believe GWW wrote Vertigo books in the past.

>>85835704
The funny thing is, while this is a great page, I can see it being in a modern comic and people still complaining about it being decompressed.

>>85841211
People have cried forced at Cho Hulk, Captain Falcon, and Simon Baz. The new girl doesn't even pretend to be a new legacy character, she's just a supporting cast member.

>>85841303
People absolutely complained about Kamala too, with the only reason it wasn't louder being that Ms. Marvel was never that popular or well liked in the first place. Kamala is good because /co/ hates Ms. Marvel in the first place.

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>>85833308

>>85841377
>But Ms.Marvel is perfectly fine.
Was not how /co/ responded to the book.

>>85841435
I was fine with Cho Hulk despite the fact that it was unnecessary. Would have prefered if he had paired up with someone who was physically strong.

Captain Falcon felt forced because it was unnecessary and the writing was all over the place. Simon Baz was weird from start to now so I can get the complaints.

http://variety.com/2016/biz/news/marvel-trump-ike-perlmutter-donation-1201692438/

When the head of Marvel who has ultimate veto power within the company donates to Donald Trump I have a bit of a reason to be skeptical that their current push for diversity isn't a mandate, especially when it's happening with multiple major characters across the line.

>>85841435
Still haven't seen anything for Jaime Reyes. I remember people were understandably outraged about Ted Kord being killed but I don't remember any of that outrage being directed at Reyes himself.

>>85841508
It responded to the announcement with "forced political agenda!"

then to the first issue with "Meh. Not offensive but way too many foreign speak with translate notes" which turned, over issues, in "well, it's actually a solid book if not without faults."

>>85841541
Oh, people were absolutely wanting Jaime to die so that Ted could come back.

>>85841575
Is she still a memspouter?

>>85841128
>"It feels forced" is the go-to response every time minorities are introduced. Always has been.
No it's not you fucking idiot. When Rhody was iron man no one cared. Some people complain about Miles but he wasn't forced. But Marvel is now rolling out a bunch of this shit all at the same time and it is clearly an agenda.

>>85841603
Yes, but the author did tone it down A LOT after the first few issues.

You can actually see the evolution of the writing style... most of the faults found by /co/ were resolved

>>85840695
Cultural Marxism is a thing. Why is Antonio Gramsci so unknown in the USA?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci#In_culture

>>85842022
>No it's not you fucking idiot.
I feel so compelled to listen to your point right now.

>>85828951
No.

>>85837387
I JUST DIED IN YOUR ARMS TONIGHT

>>85841602
But it wasn't because of his race or any PC agenda. People just loved and missed Ted. Now most people just want them both which is why DC is making people happy.

>>85841541
>When the head of Marvel who has ultimate veto power within the company donates to Donald Trump I have a bit of a reason to be skeptical that their current push for diversity isn't a mandate, especially when it's happening with multiple major characters across the line.
Why are you still not addressing this point? We already know Perlmutter's made it so mutants are appearing in lesser numbers, so it's not like this is some crazy conspiracy theory.

>>85842080
" Gramscians would counter that thoughts of "liberal inquiry" and "apolitical reading" are utterly naive; for the Gramscians, these are intellectual devices used to maintain the hegemony of the capitalist class. To credit or blame Gramsci for the travails of current academic politics is an odd turn of history, since Gramsci himself was never an academic, and was in fact deeply intellectually engaged with Italian culture, history, and current liberal thought."

1) liberals are right of center laissez faire capitalists. liberal economists are the same economists as right wing libertarian economists

2) "Gramsci's thought emanates from the organized left"

"In a notable pre-prison article entitled "The Revolution against Das Kapital"

these are contradictory.

you're full of shit.

"cultural marxism" isn't a thing except some buzz phrase conservatives like to use. just like "the patriarchy" is a buzzword 3rd wave femshits use

>>85842080
Gramsci's class-based theory of cultural hegemony is not at all what alt-right conspiracy theorists have in mind when they refer to "Cultural Marxism". They mean the Frankfurt School, which they view not as an outmoded branch of sociology, but as a fifth column dedicated to hollowing out "Western culture" from within.

>>85842276
>"the patriarchy" is a buzzword 3rd wave femshits use
Not that Anon, but this is wrong.

>>85834543

40's-50's DC > Marvel
60's-70's Marvel > DC
80's - DC = Marvel
90's - DC > Marvel
00's - Marvel > DC

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>>85842414
>00's - Marvel > DC

>>85842442

Ultimate Universe, Whedon/Morrison's X-men, Alias, Punisher Max, Uncanny X-force, Old Man Logan, etc

Marvel did a ton of great stuff in the 00's

>>85842414
70s they were equal.

>>85842502
But not good enough to be better than DC. Especially with OMD and Ultimate around.

>>85842507

Perhaps, but I feel like Miller's Daredevil and Claremont/Byrne's X-men gives Marvel an edge. I'd be more likely to agree if you said DC was better than Marvel in the 80s.

>>85842568
>Miller's Daredevil
That was in the 80s.
>I'd be more likely to agree if you said DC was better than Marvel in the 80s.
I wouldn't. Shooter did a lot of good in those days.

>>85842502
>Uncanny X-Force
>2000s
>>85842568
>>85842600
Daredevil started in May of 1979, not really a 70s book.

>>85842502
Don't forget Cable & Deadpool, PAD X-Factor, and JMS Thor, Anon.

>>85842527
Are you going to name some DC titles from the same period?

>>85842568
Miller's Daredevil is '80s. The Claremont started in 1975, but a lot of the classic material was published in the '80s.

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>>85842502
>Alias

>>85842615
>DC titles from the same period?
America's Best Comics
Batverse books by Brubaker, Rucka, Cooke
Final Crisis, Blackest Night
Johns' GL
Formerly Known as the JL, JL the New frontier, JL Elite
JSA
All-Star Superman, Red Son
etc.

>>85842502
DC had 52, Johns Flash, JSA (his best imo), GL, Infinite Crisis (I know I'm in the minority here but I think this holds up as a good story, not just a good event) Rucka's WW, his Montoya related comics, Morrison's 1/2 of his Batman, ASS, Secret Soldiers, Final Crisis, Simone's SS, WW and BoP, etc.

Marvel also had Disassembled, Red Hulk,
>>85842741
>America's Best Comics
That shouldn't really count seeing as how they bought that. ABC was at its best when it was just owned by Wildstorm anyhow.

>>85842502
>Alias, Old man Logan
Those are not good
>Uncanny X-force
Not 00s

Marvel did some good stuff in 00s though, I agree. They just couldn't compete with DC though

>52
>Seven Soldiers
>Johns Flash
>Lucifer
>Scalped
>Jonah Hex
>JSA
>Madame Xanadu
>100 Bullets

>>85842770
>That shouldn't really count seeing as how they bought that
Yeah, I wasn't sure whether to include it or not.

>>85842741
>America's Best Comics
Wasn't that Moore's own imprint, though?

>Formerly Known as the JL
I'll give you that one.

>>85842770
>ASS
tee hee

>>85842828
As in All-Star Squadron too.

I'd say the 200s were another decade where the companies were equal for the most part. They both had some very low lows (Countdown, Amazons Attack, Secret Invasion, Secret War) but they had some high heights as well, like X-Statix, X-Factor, JMS's Spider-man up until CW related things, Marvel Cosmic, Messiah CompleX, etc and then everything already mentioned on the DC side.

Yet the 90s was such a good era for comic cartoons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcxiS9DHHhE

>>85843000
>Marvel cartoons
>ever
NOPENOPENOPE

>>85841538
>it was unnecessary
This such an innocuous thing to say when describing art or literature. Like you're describing a building with five front doors.

Anyway, most Hulk books are garbage and sell like garbage. The character suffers from the same thing Iron Man does where a majority of his books suck but he's kept in syndicated print anyway because of characterfags. Even then Iron Man atleast has borderline interesting mythos.
Most Hulks are 'unnecessary' but they kept making them/changing Bruce anyway because there's only so many ways to work the Jekyll and Hyde angle for 50 years.

>>85843035
Spectacular Spider-Man was good, so was Earth's Mightiest Heroes for the most part.

>>85836692
And they succeeded.
Ok, actually, Marvel just went full retard, but it's close enough.

>>85833293
OMFG. That was the most efficient description of what's wrong with comic book composition today I've ever seen articulated. It's so fucking true.

>>85843815
EMH was basically Marvel's answer to JL/JLU and between the two of them they are the best team superhero shows ever.

>>85829145
>unapologetic

So basically you defeat your own edginess "muh freedom" and "anti-pc" argument

>>85837254

I take it you don't interact with other people often

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>>85829160

By then the concept of gender will thankfully be erased altogether.

>>85836384

Yeah sure, whatever

>>85828951
90s were awesome. Guns, muscles, thongs, cool outfits, and it took more than two minutes to read an issue

>>85829060
>The decade was horrible for the company.
There was still plenty of good stuff being made by Marvel even with the suits' meddling in the '90s though. I have a hard time thinking of 5 genuinely good books Marvel's putting out right now: Carnage, Uncanny X-Men, Gwenpool and maybe Totally Awesome Hulk (I don't read Hulk shit so I wouldn't know) are pretty much it.

>>85847294
>I have a hard time thinking of 5 genuinely good books Marvel's putting out right now
New Avengers
Ultimates
Vision
Are all amazing.
I'm warming up to:
Gwenpool
Black Panther
Power-Man and Iron Fist
Readable tier:
Scarlet Witch
Spider-Man
ANAD Avengers

>meanwhile DC takes an entire relaunch just to keep up with market share
lmao

>>85829387
>Xorneto
Hated with good reason. Morrison's New X-Men run is generally alright but iffy in parts and his character assassination of Magneto because he's so fucking obsessed with the Silver Age was utter shit. The entire bullshit with Xorn exists because they had to clean up, somehow, him shitting all over 20 years of character development.

There's a reason that stories that try and bring Magneto back to the evil kill all humans version like Fatal Attractions and Eve of Destruction don't really work. Bunn's version of Magneto is probably the way to go.

>Bucky
Again it's understandable to be skeptical/not happy with that considering how integral to Cap's entire backstory Bucky's death is. Bru made it more or less work though in all honest I still to this day have never been a big fan of bringing him back because if a character death is so integral to the character's backstory or development, it's best to leave the character dead I think.

>>85830521
I've read it, it's alright though a tad overrated. Milligan was always the weakest of the British Invasion writers.

90's extreme is cringeworthy but in an endearing way if that makes any sense.

>>85847508
It's still far better quality than the New 52 for the most part. That has to count for something.

>>85847588
>Xorneto
The thing with Mags is that he's just one of those perfect iconic villains who represents so much that (as with all sorts of characters) any changes made or character developments or plot twists destroy some fanboy's idea of the "perfect" character. Morrison didn't understand that Magneto as a character had grown beyond what he used to represent to Morrison, thus the character assassination in an effort to bring back his long-ago personal ideal of what Magneto is.
But as Superman is a living testament to, even a perfect character is pointless to read about if they never grow, develop, and advance a story.
The truely sad part is that "fanatical revolutionary terrorist bastard" isn't ment to be a trait embodied by only one archtype supervillain, there are always others. So why didn't he just create a brand new character who would take up Magneto's villainous cause?
... Intentionally?

>>85847663
It's endearing if you only have to endure little snippets or parodies of it.

>>85835539
New Warriors was good though.

I think Marvels problem isn't that they're focusing so much on minority characters though that is a problem for an all together different reason it is that they are either taking established non white non male characters or inventing new non white non male characters and giving them the mantle of established heroes with in most cases little to no reason for the change

The problem I have is that in most of these cases the new character is supposed to be better than the old in every way. You can't expect me to think Jane Foster is a better Thor than Actual Thor so much so that Thor is just called Odinson now despite Thor being his name and not a fucking title or that Riri Williams a 15 year old designed a better Iron Man suit than Iron Man so he just gives her the title

At least Falcon becoming cap made sense due to the twos history same thing with Cho being Hulk to a lesser degree

>>85835022
Deadpool under both Kelly and Priest, X-Force post-Operation: Zero Tolerance, Generation X barring Larry Hama's run, Hama's Wolverine, Barry Windsor-Smith's Weapon X story, Spider-Girl, Slingers, Ron Marz's Silver Surfer, Jim Valentino's Guardians of the Galaxy... that's off the top of my head.

>>85835535
Clone Saga is perfectly fine up until around Maximum Clonage. The Lost Years mini is great and a must read story if you like Kaine.

>>85850246
Thunderbolts as well, how the hell did I forget that?

>>85850246
EARLY- and only early- '90s X-Men books were damned good.
They really tanked bad one after another around mid-decade, even though you could still find good issues.
Some of those decisions were just head-scratchers: De-evolved Wolverine was a major low-point.
Meanwhile, you try making the turn over to Spiderman or the Avengers and you find there's no mercy there either.

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>>85850132
>The problem I have is that in most of these cases the new character is supposed to be better than the old in every way. You can't expect me to think Jane Foster is a better Thor than Actual Thor so much so that Thor is just called Odinson now despite Thor being his name and not a fucking title or that Riri Williams a 15 year old designed a better Iron Man suit than Iron Man so he just gives her the title
This! It is retarded as fuck and makes no damn sense. What the fuck are the idiots at Marvel thinking? There is no lasting appeal to this shit unless they are trying to make the comics as trash as possible so they can get a huge boost when they restore the real characters.

>>85850868
Another problem with that model is that you have an influx of readers due to the movies and yet almost every character from the Avengers movie is not the main character of their ongoing title

>>85848197
Because his entire run is meta-commentary on the X-Men. Xorn represents the idea of the reformed Magneto, the guy from the '80s. For Morrison, that Magneto is nothing but a lie. Magneto discards the Xorn identity to show his true identity: that of the genocidal and petty madman. Hence the line from Morrison about how Magneto is nothing but a "mad old terrorist twat".

Morrison is obsessed with the Silver Age of comics. In the Silver Age Magneto was a cackling asshole who wanted to wipe out humanity and engaged in elaborate schemes, so for Morrison that is the real Magneto and everything Claremont did for the character is illegitimate.

>>85850868
Well, some people have once again forgotten about the Horse-Thor.
And let's not forget about the Ponytail Leather-vest Thor.
Or MOTHERFUGGIN'FROG FUGGIN'THOR!!!!

But NOOOoooo... Jane Foster is this whole thing where OG Thor's never coming back and everything's ruined AND IT'S NEVER-EVER BEEN DONE BEFORE!!!

You fucking casual shitposting characterbashers... Grow up.

>>85851171
The problem with using Beta Rey Bill as an example is that he got to be his own character along side Thor Bill having Mjolnir to himself lasted like two issues and wasn't because Thor was suddenly and inexplicably unworthy but because Bill was just as worthy

>>85842741
>Blackest Night
>good
Johnsfags are a blight.

>>85842502
>Alias
That was shit, though.
>Old Man Logan
There are actually good cape comics in 00s. You don't have to cherrypick garbage like this.

>>85851134
Morrison's meta-commentary might fly in other instances, but when he's handed a canon run and decides to not build upon, but rather destroy with vitriolic characterization, the defining era of a property he should damned well know that he's killing a sacred cow, via decapitation... along with Jean Grey to boot.
But beyond even the contempt he has shown for the best works of another generation, there's the reality that a fundamental aspect of the X-Men mythology is now casually discarded: that of the everpresent longstanding threat to peace from disgruntled mutants themselves.
Without Magneto the whole "we've been trying to prove that not all mutants are evil from the very beginning" aspect is gone, what did he think he was replacing that with?
It wasn't just a selfish and shortsighted attack on one character, it was a dismantling of the whole narrative.
And for what? Some self-congratulatory statement about how terrorism is bad? We knew that already, he destroyed the dynamic for nothing. Nothing.

And the worst part is that he was smart enough to know better.

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>>85851171
>Horse-Thor.
>And let's not forget about the Ponytail Leather-vest Thor.
>Or MOTHERFUGGIN'FROG FUGGIN'THOR!!!!
Typing this and calling people casuals

Early 00s were great for Spider-Man
>Ultimate Spider-Man
>Zeb Wells and Paul Jenkins doing pretty well
>JMS (inb4 butthurt over 9/11)

Fantastic Four had it good too because Waid was enjoyable and based Wieringo was knocking it out of the park

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>>85851292
Before a retconning away of the fact Thor himself had admitted that Beta-Ray WAS Thor when he wielded Mjolnir, as was Thunderstrike, and of course the original Dr. Blake who in the very beginning wasn't Thor in disguise but transformed into Thor.
In all the time Thor's been around there has never been a clear and definitive explaination for WHAT the Asgardian Gods actually are.
Loki says that stories made them. There's a link to Celestials. The in-universe Asgardian myths say that their god-race was born along with the universe, they're related to those Greek gods like Ares and Zeus - so that precludes adherance to IRL mythology (among other things), they are dismssed as simply aliens with superior tech in the movies, they are both mortal and prone to death and immortal and capable of manipulating life and death.
We simply do not know the defining parameters of what constitutes "Thor".
So how can any claim be made to what is and isn't Thor? Just picking your favorite retcon? The Nordic religion? The last comic published?

>>85837642
>When most people talk about X-men 90s comics they aren't talking about the ones Claremont wrote.
They talked about books by the future Image founders, and X-Overs.

>>85838381
>Come read this new shit! Could you even imagine nowadays Marvel completely taking Captain America, Thor, Iron Man and the Hulk off the table and, instead of race swapping or gender swapping them, creating brand new characters to act as their headline heroes? No? And that is the fucking problem.
In other words, they don't want to take risks?

>>85847663
Has anyone actually read Deathmate, the comic that defined the 90s?

>>85828951
>90s comics
90s comics were pretty sweet outside of capeshit.

But then again, that's true for every decade.

>>85847294
>>85847483
I'm liking Spider-Man/Deadpool. The constant back and forth between the main story and various side trips can be a bit annoying, but the side stories also tend to be pretty good too.

>>85854506
I still own it from the 90's. Sweet foil covers and all. Valiant and Image were my go to publishers back then...and kinda now too. Deathmate is not horrible for a self contained universe merging storyline with the status quo nicely brought back at the end. The valiant parts are pretty good. The Image parts have some decent art and getting to see some of the crossover work like Jim Lee inking Bob Layton (I think?) is nice. Actually just re-read it last month. I recommend it for if nothing else then just reading it cuz it's a good time stamp of where the 3rd and 4th biggest publishers were at the time

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>still defending Marvel

>>85831483
>duur lets bleed lcs's dry for varients
>hey what happened to all the retailers we sold to.

You would think they would be more careful after last time they crashed the industry

>>85855793
>retailers
You mean those theaters that always show our movies? Cuz that's all we here at Marvel give a shit about.

>>85854571
Not true for this decade.

>>85855809
Maybe he is talking about the toystores that sell our movie merchandise.
Oh incentive varient figurenes write that down.

>>85831946
Just going by the link you posted, they had 18. Not 34. And 5 were for girls. Still not the worst ratio but even adding variants I have no clue where you got that 34.

Also, this is kind of a bullshit point considering it leaves out Whor and the ilk. One week out of 4 doesn't paint the picture.

>>85828951
90s>crap>modern marvel

>>85837096
Since you are a troll or strawman, I want to remind that the reason for ANAD X-Men was because Marvel was reaching new markets all over the world, and they wanted a worldwide hero team. It was a business decision, not a social justice one

Also, Dark Phoenix saga would be called nowadays sexist MRA crap, because it features a Powerful God-Like Woman, who is easily corrupted. As a matter of fact, you can find feminists, who while praise X-Men, find it objectionable.

>>85828951
>90s comics
>embarrassing
That's when they were the best.
I unironically like X-TREME

>>85839571
Nah.

>>85831315
Needs bigger boobs

>>85832003
These boobs are good.

>>85835171
Moe~