Why is barry never written as powerful as he should be if he

Also - Why the fuck are people saying the Green lantern is slower than superman if he's doing intergalactic travel like it's a fucking run for groceries?

>>85510937
It's a comic book

Because this is fan-wank, thoughtless writing, to try to tentpole a moderate character.

At least Barry isn't the whitewashed Wally that DC decided they now need to forcefeed to actual comics readers. Still, stop reposting this nonsense.

>>85510937
>Why is barry never written as powerful as he should be if he can do that?
Maybe he can't and is just exaggerating.

Just because he can perceive things that happen in that time frame doesn't mean he can act in that time frame

>>85510937

because if he actually used the true power levels that he's hinted at having, he would become invincible and therefore uninteresting.

>>85510937
Nearly every problem would be solved by traveling that fast. Light speed is already too fast which means the Flash jobs like crazy. Being fen faster means that normal speed charcters like most of his rogue gallery shouldn't touch him.

>>85511500

samefag but also the flash is undoubtedly the most powerful character, or at least potentially powerful character in the DC universe. if his powers were ever written to their logical end, he would be god-like.

>>85510974
They used to actually draw their teleportation portals to explain that.

>>85510937
Nobody who writes the flash has even touched a physics textbook. Flash's arch nemesis should be fucking Friction and Isaac Newton.

Rather than making my own thread

Superman can see and hear every burglary, rape, domestic abuse, and murder. Is it ever addressed what he does about this because he obviously isn't Supermaning all the time. Like does he feel guilty not stopping it and living a semi normal life

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>>85511670
>muh physics

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>>85511689

>>85511565
Where did you find that rip

>>85510937
But can he travel faster than a parsec?

is Wally faster than Barry

>>85511565
The way boomer flies towards the screen looks so shit

>>85512243
remember this is showing in 3D, that garbage ruins so much stuff.

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>>85512170

>>85512170
Yeah. He also has better feats than Barry.

>>85512170
objectively yes

>>85512270
>>85512504
>>85512575
which is it
what about Bart

>>85512618
Bart even as an adult can't be more than third and even John Fox or Savitar might be faster.

>>85512658
why

>>85512618
Every single "crazy Flash feat" belongs to Wally. He beat instant teleportation once.

Barry is only better at phasing through solid objects, which Wally can't without blowing up stuff.

>>85512618
>>85512700
>>85512658

Bart is fast enough, it's just his name isn't Wally West or Barry Allen.

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>>85511919
a place

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>>85511068
>At least Barry isn't the whitewashed Wally that DC decided they now need to forcefeed to actual comics readers.

It's even more noticeable in live action.

Barry routinely forgets his own abilities until they're convenient, and continues to run head long at people instead of running around behind them before they know he's there and hitting them in the back of the head.

>>85510937
How would he see anything when light doesn't move at the same speed that he perceives time?
If he perceives faster than light, that means he's in a constant state of portions of his vision going black because the light molecule hasn't arrived yet

>>85512957

Anon, any physics based questions about Flash always end in SPEED FORCE. You know this.

>>85510937
I've seen this pic recycled around on /co/ for years. It's garbage writing at its finest, why would you WANT him this powerful?

>>85512719
I like Bart in Young Justice comics but don't like Waid, should I try Impulse?

>>85511565

Barry seems pretty happy, despite standing over a corpse.

>>85510937
I was under the impression the speed force would overwhelm and consume the user if they pushed too hard. Thats what happened in COIE right?

>>85513082
Wally (and later Barry) overcomes it by ~power of love~

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>>85510937
Dude a banana peel is his downfall
He isn't op
No one but him has been beaten by the skin of a fruit

>>85513226
It's yellow, right? So it could beat a Green Lantern.
They also had a thing about being weak to natural resources, once, right?

>>85512170
By a longshot.

>>85511769
>not even superman can figure out what's in a hotdog

kek

>>85513257
Ah yes the dreaded fear banana you are right sir
All fear does indeed stem from worry of slipping on a banana peel

why don't the guardians just put ion in qward/warworld/ranx's battery to make all the sinestro corpsmen weak to willpower?

>>85511769

>panel two

Why is Quasimodo pretending to be Superman?
What is the context?

>fucking bait thread
Flash is strong. Not stronger than Supes. He is a heavy hitter. He can potentially fuck up every other JL member save Supes who'd he have trouble with without kryptonite.

>>85510974
You're not faster than Usain Bolt because you have a car.

Honestly it's a shit analogy, they do intergalactic travel through wormholes or whatever. Shortcuts. Their reaction time is also limited so while they can presumably move in a straight line faster than Superman, their reflexes, despite being enhanced by the ring, isn't nearly as super as Superman's reflexes.

>>85514023

nah. flash can hit harder than superman. at full strength, barry or wally could take him down. supes has had trouble defending himself against professor zoom in the past.

>>85511068
You can't whitewash someone who was already white. What.

>>85512957
He can feel vibrations from a distance or some shit.

Also something about his eyes meeting the light and not the other way around.

Also something about their auras. It's the same way they can talk at super speed -- their sounds are projected and received faster than light.

>>85513082
There was no Speed Force when COIE happened. Barry just died.

It was later retconned to be the case after they established the "Speed Force can kill you if you fuck with it too hard" scenario.

>>85514023
Flash can literally beat Superman without even moving his body. He can just look at him and turn him into a statue.

Superman is generically powerful. Flash's powers fuck around with the fundamentals of the universe. Superman doesn't match up. It's the same reason he sucks vs magic: it is beyond his comparatively simple powers.

>>85511555
Flash is powerful but let's not go "in the universe" shit. He's not some universe altering reality warper the likes of Spectre or Jenny Quantum or whatever. Basically everything high tier from Vertigo obviously outclasses him.

>>85512170
Depends on the writer.

By what they done Wally is significantly, absurdly faster.

But narratively Barry is and always will be superior to Barry. When they brought him back in Rebirth 1.0 Wally was getting beat up by his own chump villains (like Lady Savitar and Thawne, who he schooled multiple times before) so that Barry could beat them because Barry was being established as superior.

Barry will probably never again do the absurd shit Wally did under Waid and Morrison's tenure, so by that metric Wally will always be "faster." But if you ever see them running side by side or involved in the same thing Barry will be Wally's superior because DC thinks of Barry as Wally's superior. Barry is THE Flash, Wally will always be "a" Flash with Barry around.

>>85514179

>flashpoint
>literally shattered the DC universe

uhhhhhhhh

>>85514202
I mean then you're saying any schmuck with Time Travel is the most powerful being in the universe. Pandora's the one who did the universe merging. And Manhattan's the one who "shattered" things. Barry can only affect his timeline through time travel the same way Superman can. Barry just screwed up.

>>85510937
>a mentally imbalanced green lantern
You mean the Hulk right?

Keep in mind that just because he CAN perform certain feats doesn't mean he can do them all the time.

Like a human being CAN run at what, 25mph? But 99% of the time, probably even more than that, they're not going to go even close to that, because it would require certain conditions.

>>85514248

my point was just the flash can definitely alter reality etc. i guess what I meant more was he could theoretically beat anyone rather than being like a universe builder or something, though with the full extent of his powers i don't know if that'd be out of the question, hypothetically. maybe spectre could but I'm not sure

>>85511555
Which is why the anti monitor captured him in COIE. He understood that the Flash was the only one that could solo him.

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>>85512170
My head cannon is that Barry moves faster, but Wally is a better speed force user and if the two fought Wally would obliterate Barry.

>>85512704
>He beat instant teleportation once.
People always reference that but he didn't outrun instant teleportation. He followed a signal through the 4th dimension.

>>85512957
Speed force anon. It's a comic character, you will break yourself trying to find real world explanations for an unrealistic character.

>>85513011
>but don't like Waid, should I try Impulse?
It's high school Impulse. It can be fun but a bit kiddy at times. Its things like him becoming super cool at school and girls liking him.

Good characterization and Mercury interactions though.

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>>85511500
But invincible is interesting as fuck

>>85513082
>Thats what happened in COIE right?
That's a retcon. Speed force existed after COIE and the window to access Barry before then was the one month in the future he lived. This is how Barry could travel back and spend time with Wally on his worse days and also why Wally and Barry can team up vs Cobolt Blue.

>>85514125
>nah. flash can hit harder than superman
But he can't take hits like Superman.

>>85514248
He could vibrate to the Watchmen's earth, go back in time, kill Manhattan before he got his powers

>>85511500
>because if he actually used the true power levels that he's hinted at having, he would become invincible and therefore uninteresting.
That's not true. You can tell good stories when the character is essentially all powerful.

>>85514504
That assumes he knows the vibrational frequency and time and that Manhattan doesn't stop him.

>>85510937
>Why is barry never written as powerful as he should be if he can do that?
He was in Morrisons run.

Morrison addresses a bullshit powerset by proposing a bullshit challenge. Same trick he uses in All Star Superman. He makes Supes perform bullshit feats.

>>85514539
That was Wally btw.

>>85510937
Because he is not that powerful. Yes, he CAN do all of that stuff but he cannot do them consistently and Flash is not a fighter. Yes, he can get really scary when you think about but so does everyone else in League.

>>85514587
His power really just depends on the story the writer wants to tell. Morrison wanted to do some bullshit stuff, which is where a lot of the Flash's feats come from.

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>>85510937
But can Barry beat Hit that can freeze time inside a time stop?

>>85514619
Wally outruns Zoom, a guy who literally manipulates time in his area.

>>85514617
That could be applied to any powerful character in comic. You have Superman struggling to keep a bridge up one day and him lifting the infinity next day.

>>85514636
But can he do it in a time stop while being in a time stop?

>>85514667
Yeah. His powers are physics breaking, if he needs to speedforce even though time is stopped he could do it.

>>85514587

none really does anything consistently. also i don't really get what you mean by 'not a fighter', are you saying he's not hand to hand proficient? i agree with that but the flash people tf out.

>>85514689

*knocks people

>>85514683
You don't get it do you? Hit can stop time inside a time stop. It's like you see Flash there suddenly moving in a time stop. You stop time for him inside the time stop. Literally no defense for that.

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>>85514718
His power source is the speed force. It exists as another force external to time in the DC universe and has been shown to provide the user the ability to one up time so to speak (e.g. surpass light speed and time travel).

He has access to a universe breaking force external to time, he could beat a time stop if the writer wanted it.

>>85514751
You really don't understand. It's not just a time stop. It's a time stop inside a time stop. Unless he's God or someone that has defense against getting time stopped inside a time stop. Flash gonna lose bad.

>>85511670
Stop talking about things you dont understand, tardlips.
>an energy field (commonly called their "speed aura")that surrounds their body and protects them from friction injuries when they are moving at superspeed. This aura also imparts protection against kinetic damage from fast moving objects or things the Flash might run into at superspeed

>>85514788
>You really don't understand. It's not just a time stop. It's a time stop inside a time stop. Unless he's God or someone that has defense against getting time stopped inside a time stop. Flash gonna lose bad.
No you don't understand. The Flash is bullshit. He has phased into the 4th dimension and moved externally to time.

Time cannot and does not constrain the Flash, as a parameter it doesn't affect him. No amount of time stops or time stopceptions changes that.

He can and has moved to a dimension above time, he is powered by a force that trumps and is not dependent on time.

>>85514636
No he doesn't. Zoom outruns Wally every time. Wally needs other powerups or a plot device to stop Zoom.

>>85514539
Lookit this casual fag, thinking Morrison wrote Barry.

>>85514812
>No he doesn't. Zoom outruns Wally every time. Wally needs other powerups or a plot device to stop Zoom.
He speed steals and speaks the formula and can compete with zoom. It's how he is able to shove zooms head in a time hole

>>85514823
Literally corrected myself in the next post. Sit and spin.

>>85514788
One of Flash's new powers is that when someone tries to manipulate time around him he inherently sets it to a normal pace.

So no, you're wrong. It is literally one of Barry's abilities to counter time stops.

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>>85514812
>>85514826
Source. Here he is in all his time bullshittery hitting Zoom.

>>85514826
Yes, taking other peoples' powers is what we call a temporary powerup. Zoom thrashed Wally. EASILY at that. The only person who manhandled Zoom solo was Bart in that awful run.

>>85514842
You aren't wrong but really you should blot that bullshit out of your mind.

That was Deus Ex garbage writing from the worst creative team to ever get their hands on the book.

>>85514854
It was actually an idea from the Manapul run, they just applied it to a time stopping villain.

I'm not saying it's good but, frankly, plenty of Flash's bullshit powers are from suspect writing.

This Barry specifically, mind you. Wally would get rekt by a time stopping dude like Zoom wrecks him as a time slowing dude.

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>>85514853
Here is Bart outspeeding Zoom. No power borrowing.

>>85514862
>It was actually an idea from the Manapul run, they just applied it to a time stopping villain.
When did it pop up in Manapuls run? Was it the last few panels vs Daniel West? Because I remember hating that part lol.

>>85514863
This is what we call retarded writing and completely not understanding Zoom's powers like everything in that run. But it is what it is.

Barry > Bart > Wally > Jay when it comes to being The Flash, power wise.

>>85514877
Manapul and Booch were the one who established Flash as a being who moves time forward when they brought up him being basically a safety release valve for the Speed Force.

They said his actions and energy expenditure keep time flowing normally and smoothly. It actually does make a lot of sense in that way, even if that Thawne arc was stupid as fuck. I'm not gonna bang on Venditti for appropriately using prior established canon from a good run.

I will bash him for fucking up Thawne, though.

>>85514880
>This is what we call retarded writing and completely not understanding Zoom's powers like everything in that run. But it is what it is.
It's called another canon example of the Flash knocking Zoom on his ass. It's bullshit, but the whole fucking powerset is bullshit and drawing the line arbitrarily where you want doesn't make sense.

>Barry > Bart > Wally > Jay when it comes to being The Flash, power wise.
I agree speed wise, but Wally has shown he is way more adept at speed force manipulation than the others. So when it comes to being a Flash he is easily equal to Barry.

>>85514889
Yeah that's right. Weird backwards retconn from "Barry generates speed force" to "Barry taps the release valve on universe bullshittery"

>>85514893
Bart was faster because he had "The entire speed force" inside of him or whatever.

It's like they read The Return of Barry Allen and thought the only important thing about why it was a good story was that Wally beat up Thawne, then tried to do that with Bart and Zoom without having any idea what they were writing.

Bart's run is as close to non-canon as the core Flash book has ever been though. They buried that shit super hard.

>So when it comes to being a Flash he is easily equal to Barry.

lol, no. Barry way outclasses Wally. The entire point of Flash: Rebirth (the original) was that Barry is the best now that he's back. Wally couldn't fucking hang around with a juiced up Lady Savitar while Barry beat her with one hand.

Wally can make clothes. That's about the limitation of his "mastery" compared to Barry. Barry is inherently better at everything else, except Speed stealing I guess but it's not like Wally ever fucking uses that to help anyone so it's moot.

>>85514929
>Bart's run is as close to non-canon as the core Flash book has ever been though. They buried that shit super hard.
But it's still canon, it still happened and the death of Bart arc wasn't actually that bad.

>lol, no. Barry way outclasses Wally. The entire point of Flash: Rebirth (the original) was that Barry is the best now that he's back. Wally couldn't fucking hang around with a juiced up Lady Savitar while Barry beat her with one hand.
Well DC universe rebirth and Flash #1 did put them back on equal pegging, Wally was showing tricks Barry forgot, both thinks the other saved them etc.

>Wally can make clothes. That's about the limitation of his "mastery" compared to Barry. Barry is inherently better at everything else, except Speed stealing I guess but it's not like Wally ever fucking uses that to help anyone so it's moot.
Speed stealing, speed lending, those aren't small feats. Wally used that shit all the time. What speed force feat has Barry performed?

>>85514808
You still don't understand. Hit stops time when there isn't any time to stop. It's not about stopping time again because it moved but literally stopping time inside a time stop where there is no time to stop. Calling it a time stop was just me giving it a name to that bullshit that happen but that's what happen. The dimension above time is the thing that he stops.

>>85512719
Aren't some Barts actually Barry Allen IIIs or similar?

>>85512914
Of course he does. He's the Hal Jordan of the Flashes.

>>85514980
And Flash moves even when there is nothing to run on, no time left, on the edge of a black hole, in another dimension.

It doesn't matter how many ways you want to try and nerf him speedforce has always and will always provide a solution.

>>85514980
I can also mention that Flash can move into his own freaking dimension. He may as well be a God, lord knows his powerset is above the God's in the DC universe.

>>85513257
>>85513299
A magic banana could conceivably defeat Supes.

Bruce could choke on one.

>>85515017
Dirty banana sitting on the ground could spread disease to Aquaman/Wonder Woman who don't have the natural immunity to conquer it.

>>85515003
And die in it. Give up already anon.

>>85514993
He can't move when there is nothing to move. Why must you think your bullshit out bullshit my bullshit?

>>85514966
DCU Rebirth didn't do anything power level wise. They just had a chat then casually ran in different directions.

You're kidding yourself if you think they're putting Wally above Barry. Barry's got a movie coming out. Wally's a bit character in Barry's story.

Barry's got the feat where he, you know, stopped the anti matter cannon that could destroy and process universes. Wally tried, at the peak of his Waidian powers, and failed.

Barry's naturally better. Wally has more powers that don't really do much compared to Barry's inherent superiority.

>>85514248
It has to be a speedster-time trvel. Time boom, with a wake. That's what fucked shit up. Eobard explains it.

>>85515036
>And die in it. Give up already anon.
How?
>He can't move when there is nothing to move.
He has phased out of a physical form before.

>Why must you think your bullshit out bullshit my bullshit?
Pot, kettle. You came to a Flash thread arguing that some time manipulator would defeat the Flash.

>>85514980
I have no idea what you're talking about. The words you're speaking don't make sense.

Time Stop is pointless against Barry. He inherently counters it by existing.

Stopping 5th dimensional stuff, if that's what you're getting at, means we're talking about Imps and yes, Imps are beings above The Flash.

>>85515036
>And die in it. Give up already anon.

That's only Wally. Barry controls the Speed Force when he enters it. As seen in, you know, the recent comics where he enters it multiple times and all it does is give him a power up.

>>85515044
>Barry's got the feat where he, you know, stopped the anti matter cannon that could destroy and process universes. Wally tried, at the peak of his Waidian powers, and failed.
Didn't he succeed but with far more casualties, leaving the world in a worse off state? Regardless, it's a speed feat and I do agree that Barry would be faster.

But where has Barry ever performed a speed force trick close to something Wally has done? SPOILERS Flash #4: he couldn't even speed steal without a team.

>>85515052
Speed force dimension isn't actually user friendly anon. Phasing out of his physical form means nothing when everything time and the thing above it is also stopped. As I said, unless you're god or something that have an immunity to every hax ever, something like this is beyond your level.

>>85515055
I already said that time stopping is just a name I gave to that bullshit because that's what he said he did. But it's literally stopping that something that can move even beyond time stop.

>>85515069
I think the guy arguing for this hit character doesn't actually know anything about the Flash.

He came here talking about a time stop, then a time stop within a time stop, now another dimension and he doesn't realize how the speedforce or the Flash works nor any of his feets.
>>85515078
>Speed force dimension isn't actually user friendly anon
Barry has turned it into his personal battle dimension post Flashpoint. He can phase in and out of it as well as bring others in and it's actually super friendly, it amps his powers up even more.

>Phasing out of his physical form means nothing when everything time and the thing above it is also stopped
The reason Flash could do this was because he merged with the speed force, a force NOT CONSTRAINED BY TIME.

>As I said, unless you're god or something
Flash is easily above a lot of DC Universe Gods

>>85515071
Wally tried and all it did was blow up and destroy the multiverse anyhow. Because he sucks at using his Speed Force powers compared to Barry. Because Barry is better.

Barry has always been better. The entire point of why Wally was so intriguing was that he was clearly worse than Barry but trying to live up to him.

It is core to Wally's character to be Barry's inferior.

>>85515096
>But it's literally stopping that something that can move even beyond time stop.
The Flash can do that too, that's what this speed steal thing is. He is the avatar of motion and velocity in the DC Universe. You will never stop him moving.

>>85515017
>Bruce could choke on one.
You could hold a banana like a gun giving him terminal depression.

>>85515108
>It is core to Wally's character to be Barry's inferior.
I think early, yes, but he shed his mental inhibitions early on and then performed feats far greater than Barry ever did.

When Barry came back it was clearly established that Barry was still the man, but he hasn't actually shown any speed force tricks above or even equal to Wally.

>>85515035
If Diana wrapped her lasso around a banana, it can still lie.

Someone put a banana somewhere in Vic's machinery.

>>85515108
>It is core to Wally's character to be Barry's inferior.
Also this was adjusted in rebirth. Wally had his thought bubble saying something like "good old Barry saved me again" and Barry had "Wally thought I saved him, honestly he saved me".

They have been presented much more as equals in rebirth.

>>85515152
>Someone put a banana somewhere in Vic's machinery.
I'd like to see Morrison run with this.

Vic always worried that he is losing his humanity as more and more parts are replaced with machinery. But when his super villain foe replaces his heart with a banana now Vic wonders if he is now even more banana then human.

>>85515130
Nothing Wally's ever done is as big as saving the multiverse, dude. It's not something Wally could ever truly live up to. The story was in him trying anyhow.

Barry lacks tricks but makes up for it in not needing tricks because...he's better. He's faster, smarter, more morally sound, less arrogant/show offy, etc. Barry is a demonstrably superior Flash to Wally. And he always will be.

>>85515122
If it's a banana milk tea shake, you could spill the pearls onto the ground and really trigger his PTSD.

>>85515114
What you're saying is that Barry is literally above every dimension. He is a God of speed. Well my job here is done. If he's God that means it's useless to even have him here.

>>85515157
Barry was speaking more philosophically in that Wally brought back an important part of his life that he forgot. It wasn't an admission of inferiority.

There's a reason The Flash book is about Barry Allen (and always will be from now on) and Wally is where he was before Flashpoint -- stuck with the Titans in a mediocre book that will go nowhere, like every Titans book.

Wally is the B-Grade Flash. Fine, but not exceptional.

>>85515166
Guy replaces it with a watermelon. Because reasons.

>>85515176
Also call said shake "The Martha"

>>85515167
>Nothing Wally's ever done is as big as saving the multiverse, dude. It's not something Wally could ever truly live up to. The story was in him trying anyhow.
But Barry did that by running fast. The action itself isn't that impressive.

I agree he's faster, more morally sound, smarter, less showy but not better. You still haven't shown that Barry can do any of the speed force shit Wally can, short of make clothes. You say demonstrably better but almost all of the Flash's best feats are Wally feats.

>>85511565
Good lord i hate that lightening his solo is going to be unwatchable.

>>85515180
He controls and generates a force that governs and controls fundamental aspects of the universe.

The Speed Force is the overarcing force for all things to do with Time and Motion. Barry not only controls it, he creates it. Constantly. His mere existence makes him the creator of and controller of time and speed.

Would you call that a god? Someone who creates something of unfathomable power? Because that's what Barry is.

>>85515180
>What you're saying is that Barry is literally above every dimension. He is a God of speed. Well my job here is done. If he's God that means it's useless to even have him here.
Depending on how the writer wants him, yes, his speed is god like. Barry is literally about to fight a character called Godspeed and there is a good and interesting reason to do it (to see what sets Barry ahead as a character when all powers are insane).

You can tell good stories even with what are essentially infinite power sets. Give them equal bullshittery to contend with, ask them moral questions, see them deal with mistakes and loss.

>>85515167
Remember how Barry didnt even know what the speedforce was and him racing against an arrow ollie fired at a target was a fair race and every impressive flash feat was wally?

>>85515191
Barry did that by running fast and controlling and containing the energy of the canon.

Wally has some parlor tricks. Barry is the real deal. It's why Thawne could smash Wally and the rest of the Flash senpai together but Barry could beat him by himself.

And I mean, everything else said, all of Wally's powers come from Barry. He is literally walking in Barry's light. Any power Wally has is because he siphons it from Barry. Wally literally can't be better than Barry because he is dependent on Barry to even have powers.

>>85514157
I miss when flash was just runfast

>>85515181
>There's a reason The Flash book is about Barry Allen (and always will be from now on) and Wally is where he was before Flashpoint -- stuck with the Titans in a mediocre book that will go nowhere, like every Titans book.
>Wally is the B-Grade Flash. Fine, but not exceptional.
I don't agree with that. I think the reason Barry is the Flash is because his origin is more paletable then Wally's and easier to translate to the big screen and other mediums. It's very hard to have Wally as the Flash in a movie when core to his character is another Flash existing, setting a gold standard and then dying in the most heroic way possible.

Wally's story is one of legacy, you can't tell that out of the gates and thus he will never translate to other mediums as well.

>>85515208
Yeah and remember when Wally had to run a car that was on fire into Abra Kadabra to beat him?

Comics are stupid sometimes. Wally also got beat by fucking Tar Pit. Who cares? We're talking about idealized versions of their abilities and Wally literally, implicitly, can't be better than Barry. Barry creates Wally's powers.

>>85512957
Any question about flash is answered by speed force aint gotta explain shit.

>>85515218
Flash hasn't been just run fast since Jay Garrick's like 5th issue, dude.

>>85515215
>and controlling and containing the energy of the canon.
That was a byproduct of goes fast. It created a vortex feeding the energy back inwards.

>Wally has some parlor tricks
Speed lending and stealing it not a parlour trick. Knowing the speed equation is not a parlour trick.

>And I mean, everything else said, all of Wally's powers come from Barry. He is literally walking in Barry's light. Any power Wally has is because he siphons it from Barry. Wally literally can't be better than Barry because he is dependent on Barry to even have powers.
Geoff Johns you fucking stupid hack.

>>85515222
I mean, sure, but they brought back Barry to go above Wally long before the movies were even planned to be made. Or the TV show.

Those things just further cemented Barry's status as THE uncontested Flash. Wally is his spinoff, not his equal.

>>85515258
>I mean, sure, but they brought back Barry to go above Wally long before the movies were even planned to be made. Or the TV show.
They did that because of failing sales number, the same reason they killed Barry off and promoted Wally. You could say that then cements Wally as the uncontested Flash with Barry his idol.

>>85515251
>That was a byproduct of goes fast. It created a vortex feeding the energy back inwards.

Something Wally couldn't do. He also had to control his own energy and molecules to stop it from going catastrophic. Which he could because he's very good at using his powers. Wally isn't.

That's kind of the thing. Wally learned some of Savitar's tricks, but he's nowhere near as good with them as Savitar because Wally isn't actually that talented. Wally's inherently mediocre normal but has super powers.

>Speed lending and stealing it not a parlour trick. Knowing the speed equation is not a parlour trick.

This kind of furthers my point. Barry is faster than Wally even though Wally got a shortcut powerup to make him go faster than Barry isn't even aware of.

Wally could never use Speed Lending or Speed Stealing to beat a major enemy. I think he beat up Mongul once with speed lending. It's a parlor trick he rarely uses and rarely comes in handy. The one time he tried to do it on a major villain the dude was just immune to it (zolomon). It's a nifty trick of piddling use in the grand scheme of things.

>Geoff Johns you fucking stupid hack.

I dunno, there's some themes there that were always present. Wally is a product of Barry. I suppose Johnsian Literalism was a bit on the nose but it's not out of theme. It does rob Wally of a little of what made him special (being the Speed Force pioneer) but Wally honestly isn't special as soon as Barry comes back, anyhow. Might as well commit.

>>85515273
Except...no? Wally will always be derivative of Barry. Except in the JL cartoon, I guess.

Bart, sure -- and that's what they did there, too, but hell Waid even said bringing back Wally was a stop gap that they scuttled before Waid even turned in his script for his first issue.

And, frankly, when they killed off Barry they gave him the greatest death for the greatest cause in comics history. When they killed off Wally it was to get rid of Superboy Prime for a couple of months and...in a side issue of Flashpoint where he got two lines of dialogue before Citizen Cold killed him.

That really says it all. When Barry goes, he goes out in the biggest, grandest way possible. When Wally goes it's with a sputter or barely any acknowledgement. Barry is many tiers above Wally in relevance and in power.

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>>85515289
>Something Wally couldn't do. He also had to control his own energy and molecules to stop it from going catastrophic. Which he could because he's very good at using his powers. Wally isn't.
The vibration control is Wally's big speed flaw. But it also provides Wally the ability so explode things. So swings and round abouts there. He still has speed stealing and lending feats.
>, but he's nowhere near as good with them as Savitar because Wally isn't actually that talented. Wally's inherently mediocre normal but has super powers.
Bullshit. Savitars best feats are speed lending, which Wally learns, and speed healing, which he also learns. Pic related.
>Wally could never use Speed Lending or Speed Stealing to beat a major enemy
Used speed lend to defeat Savitar, speed steal to defeat inertia.
> I think he beat up Mongul once with speed lending.
He ran through rubble Mongul was standing on and it exploded because Wally can't phase like Barry, as I said, swings and round abouts on that one.
> It does rob Wally of a little of what made him special
The speed force didn't exist in Barry's run. It was made for Wally and we got a decade of him developing and honing speed powers that Barry never had. Then Johns has the audacity to say "Barry created the speedforce for all time and is just better". That sucks ass.

>>85515198
>>85515215
>>85515227
>>85515181

> barryfags being this annoying

>>85515108
> It is core to Wally's character to be Barry's inferior.

You dumbass, the entire point of Wally's character is to take the torch and move it even further. Of course Barry saving the universe is the ultimate bar because Wally was never supposed to be in that position, Barry was. Even in that story, he admits this is all about having his own race instead of doing the same things.

Barry generating SF is retconned and never referenced again. The only things we have in Rebirth are: 1) They are equals in their own way (all that saving each other stuff), 2) Wally still has the nerve to call himself fastest man alive so it means they are on about equal footing.

And honestly I don't think they will clash fanbases any longer in that department.

>>85515193
it's the static generated when he travels at the speeds he tends to travel, it's just realistic.

>>85515311
>When they killed off Wally it was to get rid of Superboy Prime for a couple of months
They never killed Wally. He got booted to another location and bart absorbed the speed force.

>That really says it all. When Barry goes, he goes out in the biggest, grandest way possible. When Wally goes it's with a sputter or barely any acknowledgement. Barry is many tiers above Wally in relevance and in power.
That doesn't say shit and it doesn't even remotely imply that conclusion.

>>85514908

Remember that the Speed Force is a fundamental force in regards to the structure and nature of thr DC Multiverse. It is the quasi sentient platonic ideal of forward motion, and the Flashes are its human avatars.

>>85515348
Yup, remember that shit. Looks like the guy who was trying to push the time stop character left.

>>85515044
>DCU Rebirth didn't do anything power level wise. They just had a chat then casually ran in different directions.

Not that guy, but they established that Wally remembers how to do more "tricks" with the Speed Force like making a costume out of it, than Barry knows how to do himself.

>>85515311
>That really says it all. When Barry goes, he goes out in the biggest, grandest way possible. When Wally goes it's with a sputter or barely any acknowledgement. Barry is many tiers above Wally in relevance and in power.

It was about how much editorial hated him than how much he was relevant. We're talking about the same people who hate Nightwing and Young Justice and tried their best to bury them.

>>85515332
Barry can also explode things. He did it in the first issue of the New 52. He just doesn't because it's dangerous and reckless. That's the difference -- Wally isn't more powerful, just shittier

Savitar literally put a zero momentum forcefield around himself that Wally could do nothing about. The only reason Wally beat him was because Savitar basically committed religious suicide. Savitar could permanently move around peoples' speed. Wally could only temporarily give people brief bursts of energy so long as they were right next to him. Wally was a novice, as Thawne put so plainly in Rebirth.

Inertia was a drug addled chump. He had him dead to rights without Speed Steal because Inertia wasn't a Speed Force level speedster. The Speed Steal was just a traumatic and horrifying way to do it because Wally's not really a good person and wanted Inertia to suffer.

I know that The Speed Force was created in Waid's run. But in that same vein it was retconned to be that everything Barry did was also with the Speed Force. You have to take all the retcons together, not just the ones you like.

Barry was superior to Wally regardless despite never even knowing of the Speed Force. He comes back and he's literally its master and creator. Wally's got nothing on Barry and never will.

>>85515334
I actually like Wally more. I think he's a much better character partly because he's less perfect. But that's the thing -- this thread isn't about who's a more interesting or dynamic character. It's about who is more bullshit and perfect, and that's Barry.

>>85515346
Sure it does. Barry stops multiverse ending threats. Wally temporarily hampers a Superman knockoff.

>>85515360
I said it elsewhere but making clothes isn't much of a power. I mean it's neat I guess but the only time it ever came up was when Wally wanted to make everyone look different to fight Thawne.

>>85515364
Editorial didn't hate Wally West. Fans just weren't buying his books anymore.

And that was decided DURING the amazing Geoff Johns finale. If Rogue War wasn't good enough to keep fans reading (remember, Wally only lasted like 5 months after Johns' run ended before being booted out) then what is? Dude couldn't sell a comic despite A+ level quality and art.

So what's there to do? Gotta try something fresh.

>>85515366
>That's the difference -- Wally isn't more powerful, just shittier
And yet he has performed feats well above that which Barry has ever shown.

You call Barry a non-shit version and morally superior, but he brain washed the Top causing the Rogue War and he broke, travelled back in time allowing the entire universe to get rebooted like an amateur. Barry is scared of time travel and fucked it up massively.

>Savitar basically committed religious suicide.
Savitar was running to kill innocents, Wally out thought him and threw him into the speed force.

>You have to take all the retcons together, not just the ones you like.
In that case, the fact that Barry didn't remember Wally (and then remembered him as Kid Flash) implies that Manhattan undid every single one of those things Barry did.

So if you want to take all of the retconns on board, Manhattan removed Barry's feats to weaken him, Wally escaped into the speedforce and retained all his stuff.

>>85515398
>Sure it does. Barry stops multiverse ending threats. Wally temporarily hampers a Superman knockoff.
But Wally didn't die. Wally also existed in COIE taking everyone back to the origin of time to fight the Anti Monitor. Pretty sure he had a hand in saving the universe. Also, stopping that Superman knock off saved the multiverse too, or don't you remember that whole story was about refucking the multiverse?

>>85515407
Wally has never performed anything better than what Barry did on COIE. Waid made a point of it in Chain Lightning -- Wally shouldn't chase the dragon that is Barry's perfection, he has to find his own solutions to problems.

And Wally also agreed to brain wash people at the end of Identity Crisis because, paraphrasing "Who am I to question Barry Allen's opinion?" Wally's a sheep. Atleast Barry had a good reason for what he did.

Savitar was fucking with Wally to get himself closer to the Speed Force. When the barrier opened he was like "YEAH GIVE ME THE POWER" and Wally obliged. Savitar didn't care about Wally -- he was clearly more powerful and could stomp him easily. What he wanted was Wally's closer connection to the Speed Force and that spelled his doom. Not Wally being better or even any good at using his powers.

Wally didn't retain all of his stuff. He's still early 20s. All he has is SOME of the memories of the stuff that he did do. That's why he was in the Kid Flash costume -- this isn't Post Crisis Wally. This is post Flashpoint/New 52 Wally but with some of his post-crisis memories returned. So Wally lost all of his feats too.

So if we're going on that metric then sure, Barry still trumps him considering he's done anything at all in the post-Flashpoint universe. All Wally's done is tickled his best friends into remembering him. Barry's fought Death, Darkseid, Thawne blah blah blah.

>>85515425
Superboy Prime was not a multiversal threat on the level of the Anti Monitor.

And Wally didn't even do it alone. Bart helped and, gasp, the person who actually stopped Superboy was fucking BARRY ALLEN temporarily returned from the Speed Force.

Like I said, Wally's got nothing on Barry.

In Chain Lightning Wally tries to win the fight because he can't recreate Barry's destruction of the canon. He fails horrendously and gets everyone killed by making them too confident.

The way he saves the universe is just by making sure Barry doesn't die so Barry can save the universe. That's the goddamn point. Wally isn't Barry. Wally can't be as good as Barry was (and now is). All he could do was set things to their proper course.

>>85515443
>And Wally also agreed to brain wash people at the end of Identity Crisis
Spectre duped him. Mind wiping the entire universe was NOT what he had in mind and it played out in the following arcs. Hell, he even mind wiped himself.

>Wally didn't retain all of his stuff.
He remembers his wife and family, his kids were VERY late into the game, meaning he has all of that shit.

>>85515454
>>Superboy Prime was not a multiversal threat on the level of the Anti Monitor.
He also wasn't alone.

Barry also didn't defeat the Anti Monitor alone, it took almost every hero and villain. Barry just suicided on a cannon.

>>85515472
No, Identity Crisis was after the Spectre Mind Wipe. Wally did the Spectre thing, then Identity Crisis happens, then after Identity Crisis where you think Wally would've learned his lesson, he agrees with Hawkman that Zatanna should wipe the minds of the bad guys because Barry thought it was a good idea.

If you think what Barry did was a mistake then Wally repeated it because he follows Barry's example blindly.

He does not remember his kids, or atleast has made no mentions of them (which you think he would). He barely remembers Linda -- Titans #1 is literally about Lilith trying to jog Wally's memories because he doesn't remember things clearly since his return.

Barry stopped the Anti Matter cannon alone, which gave Anti Monitor enough power to win. And he did that alone. All Wally did was push Barry out of the way of some Blue Fire.

>>85515507
>Wally did the Spectre thing, then Identity Crisis happens, then after Identity Crisis where you think Wally would've learned his lesson, he agrees with Hawkman that Zatanna should wipe the minds of the bad guys because Barry thought it was a good idea.
Not springing to mind unfortunately.

>If you think what Barry did was a mistake then Wally repeated it because he follows Barry's example blindly.
They both made the same mistake, it's an argument against Barry's moral superiority.
>Doesn't remember his kids and barely remembers Linda
Quite the opposite, they are probing his mind for information on Manhattan and all he can think of his Linda.

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>>85512957
>light molecule

>>85515543
>Not springing to mind unfortunately.
They have a vote after they defeat the injustice society again to see if they should mind wipe them after the mind wipe got undone.

Wally votes yay, but Zatanna cuts them all off and refuses to do it no matter what the vote is.

Barry's generally a more morally superior person. The one thing you're trying to hold against his character is something Wally also did.

He hasn't made a mention of his kids. Not once has he said Iris or Jai. The most we got of them was, during the intro to Rebirth, was the Flash Rebirth "Flash Family" pose that had Iris II in it.

In Titans he mentions "I found the love of my life and then something happened" and it shows Manhattan's hand. Or maybe Abra Kadabra's, given that final page. Who knows.

I'll take your word for it if he ever shows his powers besides making clothes. But he hasn't really done anything. It's a new universe and Wally is 10 years younger, regardless. His Speed Force connection has been shown to be different and wonky. You can't just assume Wally's better than Barry now that he's back.

I'd wager against it. They still want Barry as the #1 Flash. They just gave into fan demand and brought back Wally to stick him in a B-book.

>>85511960
Pretty sure he can go faster than twelve parsecs.

>>85514471
A big part of what makes Invincible interesting is that Invincible isn't invincible.

>>85515744
>>85515543

All of you characterfags need to chill and understand Wally and Barry are equals as the things stand in Rebirth universe. They have their own gimmick and both characters call themselves "the fastest man alive".

I'm pretty sure we are about to reach a happy medium by making them both OP characters.

>>85514619
Yes, in Vendetti's run he literally did that to beat Eobard, who he decided now was basically a temporal manipulator instead of a Speedster.
He moved so fast, he moved time forward.

>>85516007
Lol, Wally is not equal to Barry. Barry gets his own book and is on the Justice League. Wally is only in the B/C team book. Admittedly, he's the main focus, but even Nightwing's a step above Wally.

>>85516129
And it's clearly done to test the waters. Wally hasn't had a book since 2009. If the first arc of Titans sell well, it's very possible he'll get his book.

>>85516158
Alright, but then Wally would have a solo book that isn't a core book (It'd be Wally West, not The Flash) and then he'd still be in the B-level superhero team.

Barry's always going to be the headliner of the main Flash family title and he's going to be The Flash on the biggest selling team book. Barry's #1 no matter how much water testing Wally gets.

Wally may be popular but it's not like Titans is selling more than Flash. He's not MORE popular than Barry (atleast not anymore, DC spent a long time building up Barry's fanbase and squishing Wally's) so he'll never get that nod.

Barry's (probably) faster and better at molecular manipulation, but Wally has far more varied feats (speed force constructions, speed stealing, speed lending).

It's the difference between a martial artist and a weight lifter.

>>85516182
We're not talking about the same thing. Barry holds the main book because of his I.P (movies and TV show) that doesn't mean Wally can't get the White Lantern Kyle Rayner treatment.

>>85516225
Barry was given the main book back years before any of the IP stuff was even in the development phase, dude.

And lol at the Kyle Rayner treatment. Yeah, that's basically exactly my point. Irrelevant compared to Hal. He became a character in Hal's story rather than his own character.

>>85516313
>Barry was given the main book back years before any of the IP stuff was even in the development phase, dude.

Not really. Green Lantern movie and the cinematic universe it was going to establish was long in talks.

And Kyle had his own books like Ion, Guardians, Omega Men etc. He doesn't have the same amount of following Wally does have though.

>>85516376
Yeah, Kyle could even hold down a consistent book and just got tossed into other shit while Hal was having entire events for himself (like Barry) and several spinoff books.

That's what they wanted with Barry when they brought him back. They were planning on it. But Flash Rebirth didn't do as well as they expected so they doubled down, killed the Flash family, and put all their chips on Barry. Then Flashpoint happened.

Barry is and will continue to be The Flash. Wally is the other Flash. That's just how it is. Wally isn't Justice League material -- Barry is. Same shit that happened to Kyle, you're right.

>>85516409
Again, I'm not saying Wally will suddenly appear in flagship titles, I'm talking about the hush piece they will give to his fans. Kyle's fandom got him as "the most powerful lantern" as their hush part, Wally most certainly will have his own.

>Barry is and will continue to be The Flash.
this is comics. one day someone who is a fan of flash wally will take over and shit on everything that's happened.

>>85516461
Kyle isn't the most powerful Lantern.

Literally everyone goes on and on about how Hal is the greatest. Same deal with Barry.

And no, I think it's not the case anymore. Barry is breaking into the main stream the same way Bruce and Clark did ages and ages ago. You might see very temporary absences like you do in Batman and Superman, but we're never actually having Barry giving up the mantle again for any determinate period of time.

That's the point. Barry is now cemented as the #1 Flash. Everyone else is his lackey or understudy. Wally went from ostensibly equal to Barry to his inferior the very second they announced Barry was coming back. Every knew it and, despite DC promising otherwise, it's exactly what happened.

It's just what has to happen. Barry can't be around and not be the most important, most pushed Flash. Wally doesn't even have much of a character when Barry's around. He's not very necessary aside from the fact that some fans like him.

Wally is a periphery character to Barry's main character. That's his lot in life now. And that all kind of leads back to the main point here that Barry is better and more powerful than Wally. Barry's always been better. There's never been a time where anything else was implied, even if Wally did some bonkers shit.

>>85510937
Because he can't.

It's a meme image.

>>85510937
Flash and Superman are the most retarded heroes ever created, who could possibly enjoy this crap?

>>85512957

SPEED FORCE.

>>85510974
Both can do that, though I wouldn't die on a hill saying either is definitively faster.

>>85513843
>Why is Quasimodo pretending to be Superman?

modern JRJR is bad

>What is the context?

he used the solar flare and needed a day to recharge

>>85514454
and he didn't do it on his own power anyway

>>85512957
>light molecule

Also, I'd argue that OP's quote simply proves flashy is bad at math and what he means is "really super mega fast, using speed force 1!"

so if barry lives through billions of years every second, how does he remember anything people say to him?

>>85519918
speed force makes it so that perception stuff isn't bad

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>>85511068
oy vey