"If you kill your ennemies, they win"

I like this trope in comics
idealized heroes should strive to reform villains, not kill them

what ruins that is that characters can't evolve in comics that strive to last forever

so I guess that's the one I'm sick of

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>Hero refuses to kill villain
>so they just make them die in some way that isn't direct murder
Putting the villain into a situation in which they die is the same as killing them and I don't know why anyone would pretend otherwise.

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>if you kill them, you'll be just like them!
>they kill them anyway

I dislike the idea of forgoing romantic plots with strong female characters because chastity somehow equals strength. I also dislike the idea that romance makes you weak (remember what happened with Natasha in Ultron?) For once I'd like to see a weak female character who DOESN'T end up with anyone because of that, and a strong female character who gets the love interest BECAUSE she's strong and powerful. I don't like how hollywood land has put women into two camps: useless romantic plot devices and borderline asexuals who get shit done.

I also would like to see more grey morality in heroes, like Watchmen.

>>85197081
>if you kill Bin Laden, he wins.
Not so much a trope, just completely retarded non-logic.

>>85197081
>heroes having morality is a trope

>>85197081

Why are you sick of that trope? What makes that trope such a thorn in your eye?

>>85197823

Because Just like this Anon said >>85197615 this is a totally retarded logic

>>85197615

Fairly positive they wanted to capture him for interrogation, but weren't losing too much sleep over killing him.

Having entire fucking conversations while fighting

>>85197956

So, what...you think all heroes should just kill? Seriously, what do you think is the "solution" to this trope other than every hero going all Punisher on any given villain?

>>85197683
Morality is one thing, retardation is another. Joker is essentially comic-book Hitler, he will keep killing and torturing as many people as possible over and over again, but everyone refuses to kill him, or even let someone else kill him like Jason Todd. I'm guessing even in a self defense situation they would still refuse to kill him, or defense of others, etc.

>>85197081
>>85197615
>>85197823

While I'm annoyed with the oversaturation of this trope, I think people often forget that the logic comes mostly from the characters involved.

A vigilante who has chosen to eliminate what he feels is crime, deciding murder is the best option is not rational thinking. That literally makes the person the same as any random jackass with the power to take anyone they don't like or see as immoral. In this case the "You kill them, they win/you become them" makes perfect sense.

It's in people's nature to want to simplify things, but anyone who says "Killing my enemy is always the logical thing to do" probably isn't smart enough to grasp why this is a trope to begin with.

That's why I tend to like that trope being supported with the "Cycle of revenge trope" they go together nicely.

>>85197081
The Joker didn't win because Batman killed him in The Killing Joke. Batman killed him because the Joker won.

>>85197081
>DONT!? if you kill him. He wins!
"I've always been a loser."
BAM!
You're going to carry that weight

>>85197328
Worked for Jigsaw.

>team involving guys and gals
>guys make dumb decisions while gals are wise
>"haha us guys am i right"

>>85197615
Comparing real people with incredibly complex motives and psychology to fictional characters that simply exemplify certain aspects of human mind or ideas is retarded non-logic.

>>85198351
There's also the fact that by having a general policy to kill people, the hero loses any chance of getting a main villain. Which is essential in capes if you want to have any sort of longevity. Some guys don't follow this rule, but in capes, the ones who kill people tend to peter out faster, because there's little chance of recurring villains appearing that don't make the hero look incompetent or hypocritical.

>>85198195
Always fun when people bring up the Joker. The one Batman villain who still didn't die, back when Batman had no compunction against killing people.

>>85198351
Frankly at this point I'm more annoyed by the constant bitching about the trope than the trope itself. It's like the edgelords here can't comprehend the fact that some people just don't want to kill.

>>85197081
Here's what to do when a villain pulls out this trope

https://youtu.be/brnqO_06uqs?t=112

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>>85199021
It's not just that he doesn't want to kill himself, he actively prevents others from killing the Joker.

>>85200997
>I would rather slit the throat of my recently ressurected "son" than let him kill a maniac that never stops killing innocents
What the fuck is Bruce's problem?

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>>85197081
>If you kill Hitler you're as bad as him
So imagine how bad Hitler was when he killed Hitler.

>>85197956
There are plenty of heroes who kill. Some of the heroes who don't like killing will in self-defense. What's your problem with people who want to avoid killing? Superheroes (the idealistic ones) should be about saving and the rule should mainly apply to them. Not everyone.

>>85197081
I'm sick of the trope where people whine about heroes not killing.

>>85197081
How would we have the Suicide Squad with that mentality?

>>85201264

Not only that, after all these years of experience he cant even aim for the fucking hand? Bad writing at its worst.

>>85201307
He became Double Hitler.

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>>85197081
>MFW

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>heroes have a cunning plan to easily defeat the villain
>plan goes to shit somehow YOU HAD ONE FUCKING JOB
>plan B is quickly improvised to defeat villain

>>85200997
what the fuck? i though bats doesn't kill?

Batman: The Killing Joke Spoiler Review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9-dYSbC3tA

>>85197292
I mean, I like that Batman refuses to kill and that a lot of heroes try not to kill, and I don't want Batman to become some edgy killer because "durr hurr it makes more sense b/c his villains kill so many people," but I just wish the in-universe reason were better than "IF YOU COMMIT A SINGLE MURDER AGAINST A SERIAL MASS MURDER THAT MAKES YOU EQUALLY BAD TO HIM." Like, no, it makes you kinda bad, but not "as bad" by any conceivable measurement.

They could just say that Batman doesn't feel it's his right to kill, and leave it at that.

It also makes sense that Batman would prevent others from committing murders of even other murderers, but what always gets me is when Batman prevents people from killing in justified immediate self-defense, like when he keeps Montoya from filling Two-Face in Gotham Central. It wasn't some execution- or retribution-type murder. Two-Face was literally attacking her and threatening her life, and Batman was still like, "nope, don't do that, Renee, that's illegal." What, no it's not.

If they just stopped writing scenes like that, the whole "Batman doesn't allow killing" thing would make sense.

>>85206678
To be fair, this kind of just has to be this way due to the structure of stories. There would be no tension if we saw the heroes come up with a plan, execute it, and succeed. There has to be that point where the villain looks like he or she is going to win and the hero is losing. It's like that in pretty much every story.

Only time you can have them carry out a plan that actually just works is if the audience isn't privy to what that plan is until the climax, and THINKS the hero is losing because we're in the dark. But you can only do that "hahaha I planned for this along" thing with your hero so much before people wonder if he or she has bullshit prep-time plot armour. It's already happening with Batman.

>>85209988

I'm OK with it up to a point, I see it as how law enforcement always ( or should, European here ) tries to bring a suspect in alive to face justice and punishment. As soon as heroes start killing when they have the option not to then everyone's basically Dredd and they put themselves beyond the concept of justice and heroism.

Saying that, it's bullshit when they let someone kill a bunch on innocents because of their 'ethics', if they do need to kill to sace the day then so be it, although I guess legality depends on the circumstance.

I like how batman coped with it at the end of the Red Hood movie though, with even Joker calling him out on his bullshit.

>>85201264
The joker drives Bruce, Without one the other is nothing.

>>85197081
The trope made me think that Batman is a really twisted being using Gotham as his private playground.

>>85201264
>>85200997
>>85198195


The conclusion of the Red Hood arc was fucking stupid, the entire arc could've generally been better but they never should've made it come down to the Joker or Jason dying. I just really hated Batman and thought it was so fucking stupid after I got through it.

>>85198056

I don't know, man. I actually like that one.

Granted most of the examples of this I can think of are out of something hilariously cheesy like Dragonball Z. Stuff like that just makes me laugh.

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>>85198164
The idea that a hero who kills is some absurd outlier could only have come from the decadent, sheltered, pseudo-morality of basement dwelling manchildren.

Characters that lose their powers for emotional reasons. Impotence can be written much better than that.

It's acceptable when emotions are the source of their power, but when someone just loses their powers because of teh sads, I usually wind up dropping the book.

>>85211290
your thinking is naive and detrimental

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>>85198351
Being a vigilante already entails assault, often unlawful detainment and obviously VIGILANTISM which are already crimes. By acting as a vigilante you are already holding yourself to a different standard than everyone else.

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>>85197081
>all women and black people are are strong, smart and much better then those sexist, racist, privileged white men

so basically everything Marvel and DC put out nowadays

>>85197328
It's a loophole in a law that the superhero invented himself. Pretty ridiculous.

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>>85211312
Detrimental to your self-deception maybe.

The Joker is such a threat that not killing him makes Batman an immoral coward who allows the death of innocents.

>>85199021
>constant bitching

People keep complaining because the idiotic idea continues to be used. 'Heroes need villains' is not an excuse for making all your heroes more concerned about the life of the villain than his victims.

And you have problems if you think having a moral compass makes you an edgelord.