Muslim thread?

>>84848088
>Is part of the reason for Kamala's success as a Muslim character that she seems far less "devout" than others practicing the same faith
Bingo.

>>84848088
One got to star in her own book. One was a b/c-tier member of a b/c-tier X-Men team. One was part of a relaunch title that barely lasted more than a year.

>>84848123
It make sense though.

there is alot of westernized muslims in the west (duh) a lot of them is only muslim by name and are more carefree like Kamala.

>>84848088
Devout Muslims don't make for good characters. Mainly because if they're devout it tends to mean they're bigoted screwballs that want to stone everything. Moderate Muslim is best Muslim.

Kamala and Simon Baz have become great, relatable characters to anyone who feels like a bit of an outcast. It comes down to good writing at the end of the day and not trying too hard to pander to the PC croud. They'll find something to criticise anyway.

>>84848128
Man but that b/c X-men team was one of my favorites.

But still they existed for a considerable amount of time before Kamala. Isn't it possible that when Marvel was talking about diversifying there character base that they were brought up with the idea of getting their own books before just jumping to we need to make a Muslim character?

>>84848272

>moderate

I think you mean nominal or reformist

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Can we not do these threads?
There's something really creepy about singling out representations of races and religions.

>even the muslim women all have the same body type

>>84848364

You forget where we are anon...

>>84848272
Not a huge fan of Simon but I get your point. And he definitely fits the mold. Although I would say I don't think he did that well or was that liked as far as I could tell until he was teamed up with Cruz. Or am I wrong about that.

I find that religiously devout people don't often work well unless they are written as "lawful good paladin"

>>84848377
At a funeral?

>>84848432
This, honestly. It's hard to write religiously devout characters, regardless of what religion it is. I know plenty of very devout people, and they always seem like they're...fake, I guess? I don't know how to work it correctly, but basically, even those real life people seem almost one-dimensional.
So managing to write a devout character well is extremely hard, because the real people that are devout tend to be...hard to manage.

>>84848256
Hey, I just say why it worked. Having solo book and fuckload of PR certainly helped, too.
>>84848432
Lawful good paladin for Christians, non-practicing Muslim for Islam. I have no idea what they do with Judaism.

>>84848364
>St. Croix
>father from Monaco
>grew up in Monaco

PAD decides she's a Muslim somehow because her mother who died when she was a child was Algerian. I can only assume that M is just fucking with people.

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>>84848364
>Can we not do these threads?
>There's something really creepy about singling out representations of races and religions.

You say this...but then you contribute.

And M is another good example as a popular character that doesn't really show many if any ties to her religion.

>>84848432
>>84848568
If that's the case, then outside of the occasional, praise be Allah or there is only one God and I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that kind of lines that are tossed out to show a characters religious affiliation do characters who are religious really have any place in storytelling outside of needed plot points.

>>84848314

This. "Moderate"...well, it doesn't really tell us anything without context. Moderate by what standards?

...That's mostly rhetorical, I'd rather this thread not devolve into a shitshow immediately.

>>84848732
Within the context of OP's pic, Kamala is liberal or nominal, Faiza is moderate, and Dust is a fundie.

>>84848432

When it comes to devout Christians, the Catholics make much more interesting characters because of the whole zen mentality and guilty conscious thing.

Catholics are basically a bunch of religious Peter Parkers.

>>84848088
It's funny that you've got Faiza in there, because she's not that religious either, at least not in an intrusive way. She just didn't get popular because she's British.

>>84848272
>Devout Muslims don't make for good characters.
Devout ANYTHING doesn't make a good character.

Imagine if they took Daredevil and made a big show of him going to Confession and Mass EVERY GODDAMED DAY and had him tell his GF that he was "saving himself for marriage" and made a big show of him praying to Mary and whatever Saint applied at the time.

Sprinkling in bits of culture (say: giving things up for Lent) is interesting to most people who aren't familiar with that culture; going in too strong starts to grate and look more like a writer's pushing an agenda.

>>84848651
It's the world's largest religion, why can't there be one wealthy Muslim family from Monaco?
Besides, this is sort of a thing with X-Men casting: Wolverine's the rude Canadian, Nightcrawler is the nice German, Colossus is the good Russian. They're all kinda atypical to the stereotypes of the past.

>>84848804
>giving things up for Lent

You think DD just gives up watching porn every year.

>>84848804

Man, devout Catholics aren't so bad. Even the whole "saving myself for marriage" isn't a bad thing to explore.

I can see a devout Catholic hero trying to help and befriending a female villain, with them both feeling very attracted with each other, but the hero fighting his urges and desires because that's not the things are supposed to happen. You can milk that relationship for all it's worth and then either have the hero give in or them both marrying. Either way it would be a good end for the relationship.

>>84848843

>You think DD just gives up watching porn every year.

Maybe the ones starring Karen.

>>84848887

Wait, i'm stupid. The dude is blind.

>>84848722
If we're being honest? I don't think religion should be such a point with characters. It shouldn't be such a big deal, or something that gets brought up so much. Like >>84848804 said, having sprinklings of their religion is fine, but making big deals / prominent points of their religion makes it uncomfortable. And this is coming from a practicing Jew - I always find myself kinda uncomfortable when I see devout Jewish characters in...pretty much anything. It always feels forced and seemingly agenda-pushy, I guess.

That said, at the same time - it's nice to get to see yourself, your religion, in media that you enjoy. Where you're not the bad guy for it. I'm sure there's a ton of Muslims out there that love seeing Kamala, because hey! Media representation of people like them, that arent't violent terrorists or something.

I guess it's just that it's a really fine line to walk - letting people see themselves in media is one thing, pushing their religion hard is .. another.

Kinda off-topic, but do you folks have any recommendations for some Jewish capes? I haven't seen much, other than the magical Mr. Magneto.

probably more because she got hype and a push. those other girls were never mentioned on TV or anywhere.

>>84848843
That faith mandates that it be something done almost everyday, so the practice of sacrifice itself promotes and teaches self-control in preparation for a year of virtuous living.

Daredevil doesn't watch porn to such amoral excess.

>>84848868
>devout Catholics aren't so bad
Having grown up in the Deep South (GA) I spent some time living in Tampa and knew several Cat Licks at work. Good people. Made me wish there were more of them than there were Southern Baptist type Evangelicals (who are total cunts in that part of the country).

And then I got a better job in Boston and found out what happens when any group of people is in the Majority.

TL;DR if you thing Devout Catholics "aren't that bad" you haven't actually spent any time around Devout Catholics.

>>84848901
Apart from the obvious Kitty Pryde, there's another Marvel mutant named Sabra who has guest-starred over the years in multiple books but I don't think ever had a book of her own.
She is an Israely superhero/soldier.

>>84848901
>It shouldn't be such a big deal, or something that gets brought up so much.
This is exactly how I feel about Gay characters. The fact that they're gay in < Current Year > *really* shouldn't be that big a deal and it's annoying when the authors feel the need to do Yet Another Coming Out Story.

Compare Scarlet Spider (where the cop and his bf are gay and no one cares) with Young Avengers (where there's basically no plot but we're supposed to be totally fascinated by the fact that most of the cast is either gay or bi).

>>84848088
Did you read the first issue? If you acknowledge that devout Muslims tend to be bad people, you are seen as a bigot. The only person who brought reality up was the bully. It's why I can't enjoy this comic, even though it's the best-written thing Marvel has out right now.

>>84848901
Depends on how the religion and the practitioner is depicted. I find it that often the "religious" were portrayed like bad guys in political cartoons, and that's where they lost my interest.

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>>84849035
Man fucking Sabra. She was like the meanest person I remember reading but likeable.

>>84848901
http://www.comicbookreligion.com/?srch=religion-Jewish__23_-hero-1

>>84849089
>If you acknowledge that devout Muslims tend to be bad people, you are seen as a bigot.
Her brother clearly takes things much more seriously than either his parents or his sister and is also clearly a bit of a wanker about it. And then the father literally wonders out loud if he's just avoiding getting a job, FFS!

>>84849035
I think her biggest role was in the second Union Jack mini, where she butted heads with Arabian Knight.

>>84849089
>you are seen as a bigot
>seen
You misspelled "recognized"

>>84848088
This is an interesting thought and leads me to a question thats been broiling in my mind on the subject.

No one writes a character forever. Eventually they run out of stories to tell, the lucky ones get to have endings like Jack Knight in Starman, but lets assume that doesn't happen. Wilson leaves and someone else writes the character

Daredevil is a catholic, but sometimes he struggles with his faith. Will Kamala be allowed to struggle with hers? I'm not talking going out or her constant struggle with infidel meat(I'm talking bacon here) but a real actual shaking of her faith. Thats a natura thing that happens to people over the course of their lives, even the most faithful true believer goes through it. In this current environment of identity politics is this something that is possible?

>>84848836
An old, wealthy, aristocratic, political Monegasque family? From tiny, universally Catholic Monaco?

Nope. M's Muslim heritage is certainly through her mother.

>>84849295
Probably not, honestly. If a writer depicted Kamala refusing Islam, you would get SJW's claiming that Marvel is trying to destroy her cultural heritage and whatnot.

>>84849295
I think it's something you could pull off, even in ultra-PC times. People are offended by Kamala - for one reason or another, be it "she's not Muslim-ing correctly!" or "MUSLIMS?? In MY comics?????" - so whatever outcry was made, it wouldn't be out of the norm.
Having her question her faith would actually be pretty interesting. I don't want it happening now - I say, wait maybe ten issues or something before pulling something like that - but it'd be cool to see. Questioning your faith is normal and happens to even the most devout people.

>>84849257
Why is it that you will eagerly tip your fedora when you insult Christianity, but you let Islam get a free ride so that you appear to be accepting of other cultures?

>>84848836
>It's the world's largest religion
There are 2.2 Billion Christians and 1.6 Billion Muslims, anon. It's not even close.

>>84849366
>>84849396
Yeah, thats sort of what I figured. Mostly I meant a writer other than Wilson, I think if Wilson, being a Muslim herself, wrote it would be accepted as an experience she probably had herself.

Bit of a double standard though isn't it? I understand why they might have that reaction, but it seems like the context would be important. The primary weakness of the current political climate in comics, it doesn't really seem to be serving the cause of elevating minorities and the like to the same level as everyone else, it just moves them to a pedestal in another room.

>>84849295
I don't see how it's avoidable, the only way most of these personal moral structures and cultural taboos would come up in a storyline naturally is whenever the faith is being tested by a moral conundrum.
Remember that Christmas issue that debuted Gwenpool? Poor Kamala was left pondering how she's ever going to explain finally going to a Christmas event if her mother ever found out, no possible transgression ----- no ethical dilemma in a cute hat. And yet her faith is expressed honestly without anything dogmatic being awkwardly forced upon the reader.

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>>84849398
>muh /pol strawman

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>>84849477
>I think if Wilson, being a Muslim herself, wrote it would be accepted as an experience she probably had herself.
Don't forget that the character is based largely on (and was co-created by) editor Sana Amanat (who unlike Wilson isn't a white girl in a headscarf).

>>84849564
Didn't know that, thankee sai

>>84849564
This is now what Kamala grows up to look like.

>>84848804
>Sprinkling in bits of culture
That was pretty much the exact goal from the start:

Marvel.com: This is the first time a Muslim character has headlined a book at Marvel. How important is the character's faith to the title?
Ms. Marvel #1 cover by Sara Pichelli

G. Willow Wilson: Islam is both an essential part of her identity and something she struggles mightily with. She's not a poster girl for the religion, or some kind of token minority. She does not cover her hair –most American Muslim women don't—and she's going through a rebellious phase. She wants to go to parties and stay out past 9 PM and feel “normal.” Yet at the same time, she feels the need to defend her family and their beliefs.

Sana Amanat: As much as Islam is a part of Kamala’s identity, this book isn’t preaching about religion or the Islamic faith in particular. It’s about what happens when you struggle with the labels imposed on you, and how that forms your sense of self. It’s a struggle we’ve all faced in one form or another, and isn’t just particular to Kamala because she’s Muslim. Her religion is just one aspect of the many ways she defines herself.

Source:
http://marvel.com/news/comics/21466/all-new_marvel_now_qa_ms_marvel

>>84849398
He's a sjw.

>>84848088
1) kill yourself
2) go back to /pol/
3) this is a shitposting thread now
4) if you post in this thread, don't forget to put sage in options. don't bump the cancer

>>84848901
> practicing Jew
Jesus H. Fucking Christ

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>>84848088

>>84849506
>My hypocrisy has been called out
>Better post /pol/

Every time

>>84848781
Hey, Catholics don't got a monopoly on guilt. It's also prevalent in Judaism and the Chinese!

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>>84848272
>Moderate Muslim is best Muslim.

>>84848088
Of course. Most kids in the West are rather bewildered by religious sentiment and would rather worry about actual problems because they have enough of those.

>>84848901
Despite the big influence Jews have had in the industry, there are barely any officially Jewish Characters.

There's Ben Grimm, who is barely Jewish. Referenced like once?

There's Kitty Pride, who stops being interesting once you leave puberty. Never really had a great run.

There's Batwoman, whose Judaism isn't nearly to the level of, say, DD's Christianity.

There's Ragman who has never had a solo.

There's Sabra whose thing is that she's Israeli (seriously, she's called Sabra for gods sake).

Hal Jordan is also half-Jewish on his mother's side, but that's only been referenced in the old Spectre series (and was only barely there) and in the recent Darkseid War: Green Lantern one shot (which rocked).

>>84851075
Are people really trying to reclaim all that Happy Puppy shit? Man, just let it go. You lost it to redditors and their ilk like 6 years ago.

>>84848774
Dust has to be the worst fundie ever, then. Just look at the company she keeps.

>>84848272
>Dead Muslim is best Muslim
Fixed that for you, pham.

>>84851098
since Batwoman's mother was Martha Wayne's sister, Bruce Wayne is also jewish

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>>84851098

>>84848088
Since Islam has a lot of problematic content, more so than Christianity, which progressive people opposed in the 20. Century, then yes, I'd say that's it.

>>84848272
its more accurate to say they dont make good main characters kamalas brother is pretty religious especially when it comes to modesty and whatnot.

also its an easy mistake to make but baz is not muslim he just comes from a muslim family

still you are largly correct

>>84851075
>its an anon cant comprehend that there are different levels of extremism episode

>>84848568
>It's hard to write religiously devout characters
Yes cause you'd actually have to address their ideology and pretty much any religion is at odds with modern liberalism, which is the default backdrop for superhero comic books.

Terrifying, isn't it.

>>84848088
i think the fact that every member of kamalas household has a difrent level of piety makes for an interesting dynamic

from kamala herself whos first words in the comic were delicious infidel meat while salivating over a hot dog she couldent eat to Aamir wont even talk to his potentiol wife without a chaperone Khan

i like kamala but by far my favourite muslim character is the guy from demon knights

>>84851231
I comprehend that a lot of what you call """moderate"""" Muslims hold extremist ideals even if they aren't committing acts of violence themselves and that Islam needs to be reformed or done away with, not defended and coddled.

>>84851242
Isn't the New Testament pretty liberal? Not by today's standards maybe but still.

>>84851316
moderate does not mean average only idiots would deny that modern islam has some sevear problems but that just means there are more of the bad types not that the standards for being moderate have changed

>>84849477
Precisely.
I hate it when people go full collectivist anyone is not a white dude.
You are not "person who", you must be the "woman/black person/gay/bi/trans who" and therefore beyond reproach. Or personal recognition of your abilities.
Like a talking dog. Ot doesn't matter what you did to get there, it is a marvel an X could do that.
And of course this leaves a bad taste in the mouth of everyone who did not get there, everyone who only hears "look at the X doing Y !".

We really need more people who refuse to be made a big deal of what they are in favor of who they are.

>>84849494
To be honest, I think it can be argued that Muslims could share in the celebration of a recognised prophet like Jesus, so long as they don't explicitly recognise him as the Messiah.
Loophole? Maybe. Hella convenient? You bet.

>>84851071
Guilt in Chinese Confucianism is personal and it is a burden of shame directly towards your family.
You disappoint your grandfather, your mom etc.
In Catholicism you disappointed God. Actually you are a disappointment by birth just for being a descendant of Eve.
You always have to make amends and you can't just bribe your ancestors with a nicer shrine or a bit if dosh.
You aren't just a failure for not making daddy's name known and important, but you are a failure no matter what. If you apologise enough, maybe you can be forgiven for being such a disappointment, but you never really win.

>>84849295
she has to question her religion at some point its a great story idea and in no way out of character considering what we have seen of her at the mosque
problem is if she leaves tumblr will be mad and if she doesent it will probably be called pandering (although to be fair knowing marvel i would not be surprised if by then ms marvel got as bad as the rest of marvel and it auctualy was pandering)

>>84851265
Uhm, it was a BLT, I think.
And he did precisely talk to his fiancée alone once Kamala ditched them.
So they are far from actually hyperventilating over this breach of protocol, but mostly play it "proper" so long as it's viable.
If they were going hardcore, Kamala would not have been a viable chaperone, and once she ran, Aamir and his GF would have needed to split ASAP, and she would have needed her brother to be with her outside, anyway.
Just saying: Arabian rules of engagement are more bonkers than you can pull in America.

>>84851215
I honestly have no idea how the Jewish "church" works. There are tons of films with Jewish characters and Jewish film makers are some of the most popular and my favorite film is The Pianist. Fictional Movies and TV has shown me more of how Catholics and Islam works compared to Judaism. I know they have their own special holidays and the ever popular Barmitsvah but I don't know the role of men and women in the Jewish church, I don't know how much they pray, how they pray and when they pray.

>>84851667
I think she would maybe try and find a strand of Islam that fits her fancy.
Although theological debates could be tedious.
But I think that she would try and find a group that is essentially liberal humanists after her words at the mosque, decrying baseless tradition and pushing for equality.

>>84851713
The thing is, there is none, really. They are marked by the diaspora that divided them into small communities around rabbis who are priests, theologians and councillors to the community.
They recite their holy book and they discuss the finer points of faith and life among the respected heads of families.
This form of dispute is really a source of many stereotypes because it has tinted their bargaining for centuries and made them quite astute hagglers.
The informal and traditional nature of this very flat power structure has been a mark of their culture. They were never in power, never really had a big religious structure and instead went for personal contacts.
So what you see is mostly it. A bunch of old guys who bicker all day and a nominal leader with no large power structure to back him up.
I'm sure Israel is trying to get a bit more going, but that is what Jewish minorities have operated like.

>>84851673
yeah i should have made a better joke

>>84851848
The shrude moneylender stereotype comes from the only profitable jobs they were allowed to do in the ghettos of Europe because the christians didn't like lending with interest (at the time).

>>84851215
Why the hell is Wiccan there? Scarlet Witch has never shown as embracing any aspect of her father's religion, so why would her half-robo sort of demon son?

And Moon Knight is ethnically Jewish, but I don't think he's ever showed any interest in practicing it as a religion.

Doc Samson is also Jewish, I think?

But yeah, the only well-known Jewish character in the big two comics where being Jewish is actually a major part of their character is Magneto, and even with him they removed that at one stage and made him a Romani Holocaust survivor (AND it's usually the source of him being a villain). With everyone else it's a token "oh by the way" or an oft-neglected part of their backstory. There's no real Jewish equivalent of Daredevil, Nightcrawler, Ms Marvel, etc.

>>84851202
Nah, Batwoman's father is Jacob Kane, who is Jewish IIRC. He is /somehow/ related to Martha Kane, but we don't know the specifics.

If they're brother and sister, then yes, she's Jewish and so is Bruce.

If, for example, his mother is Jewish but his father, a Kane, isn't, then no, Martha probably isn't, thus Bruce wouldn't be.

>>84852456
Wiccan's soul was reborn as Billy Kaplan, and the Kaplan's are jewish so he was raised as a Jew.

>>84848962

My friend, Daredevil doesn't watch anything.

>>84852456
I was more about the stereotype that they haggle hard over everything.
Clearly the people who think they Jews drive a hard bargain never went shopping with Chinese women.

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>>84848962
>Daredevil doesn't watch porn

>>84851529
Damn that sounds good.