China Mieville on Grant Morrison

>>84563743
Sounds to me like hes just some hipster faggot that hates Morrison because he's popular and successful.

>>84563743
Nigga who the fuck is China Mieville

He sounds like his anus could fit a manhole cover holy fuck what an awful name

I think he's assuming Morrison is trying to be radical when he's not.

>>84563816
He wrote Dial H, casual

>>84563801
>>84563816
>I'm an ignorant faggot and proud

>>84563841
He's far better known for his prose work, casual.

>>84563743
>desperate writer trys to get attention by bad mouthing successful legend
>more news at 9

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>>84563816
>>84563801

>I haven't heard of him, so he isn't successful

He's one of the most popular Weird Fiction writers of all time. He operates in the same spheres as Morrison, Ellis and Moore, but deals more with prose than comics. I seriously recommend you pick up Perdido Street Station or King Rat.

>>84563743
>scepticism towards power is something I'm very sympathetic to
>he says as a card carrying socialist
Fucking lol. If he was, he'd be an anarchist and that's a bigger lol since anarchism is actually even dumber.

>>84563877
>Morrison
>legend
>for writing some funny books nerds like
Mother fucking lol

>>84563878
>I like this guy so I think he should be spoken in the same sentence as the greats

Wew lad you come off as really pathetic

>>84563881
Samefag but to keep this related to comics, Morrison's biggest problem is that he writes comics for Morrison and Morrison only. He wants you to think comics are great but specifically wants you to believe in his idea of what comics should be. Some times it works and you get something like JLA or Animal Man.

Some times it doesn't and you just get ultimately unsatisfying pointless messes like Final Crisis.

>>84563908
he is a pretty good writer, to be fair

>>84563908

Have you ever read anything by him? No? Then why do you feel that you have anything to say about his value or worth?

>>84563908
>comic book writers
>great
You're fucking hilarious. Go read a real book some time.

>>84563904
Kek did you seriously just try to use the term nerd seriously? Move on kiddo your mommy is calling you.

>>84563935
Oh, what's wrong? Touched a nerve?

>>84563930
>>/lit/

>>84563914

What writer doesn't do that? Every writer writes about what interests them with a desire to make you, the reader, interested in those things too. It's a part of the entire thing.

>>84563878

I will give you that those two books are pretty damn good but some of his other shit comes off as "Look at my clever idea, isn't so clever?" pretentious wankery.

>>84563963
Great non-counterargument. Keep reading your baby books with pictures, you philistine.

>>84563960
Not at all. Just surprised someone is okay with coming off as being that stupid. Carry on.

>>84563975
So, just like Morrison then.

>>84563981
Kek why are you even on /co/? Get a job or gf you have too much time.

>>84563985
You seem awfully triggered, friendo.

>>84563914
>Final Crisis widely considered the greatest event of all time
>bad

You have a terminal case of hipster shit taste.

>>84564012
Because I do enjoy comic books, I'm just not a delusional faggot who thinks the greatest comic book writers can somehow stand up to a good prose writer.

>>84563914
>>84564051
FC main story was bad but Superman Beyond was GOAT

Also One Million is agreed to be the better event

>>84563743
anyone that thinks the ending to Animal man isn't great is a dum dum.

>>84564033
Its just a very idiotic thing to say, especially on a Korean comics and cartoon board. Labels are for normies with no identity or 15 year olds. Which are you?

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Chynna Clugston>China Mieville

>>84564074
by plebs maybe.

>>84564089
You're STILL sperging out? Holy kek.

As a fullblown Morrison fag, he's completely right.

>>84563743
>He's been making the same arguments since the mid-80s

In a comic he wrote in the 90's?

When the fuck is this interview from? His only shade is at Invisible which was completed over 16 years ago

>>84564125
15 it is. Poor little anon trapped in society's constructs of what his identity should be.

>>84564069
>comics writing and prose writing are exactly the same

>>84563981

Dude, the fuck are you doing on a comics and cartoon board if you don't like comics?

>>84564069
>it has no pictures so it's for adults
You're still reading dumb childish pap if you like Mieville. Just because it's a prose book doesn't mean it's any less embarassing to read shit like this
>>84563878

>>84563878
>I seriously recommend you pick up Perdido Street Station
I dropped it after 200 pages of bloated narrative.

>>84563914
>He wants you to think comics are great but specifically wants you to believe in his idea of what comics should be.
This is motherfucking every comic writer in the business faggot. Moore was doing it with "muh deconstruction" and "muh reconstruction", Ellis has been writing same protagonists since the Stormwatch, Waid still believes that every silver age status quo is the one that should always be in place and written about, like Superman should never marry Lois, Peter should be a manslut, Doom should be generically evil and DD should be bright and colorful. So yeah, literally every writer writes Comics for themselves, their idea if being " revolutionary " is that their audience should accept their understanding of what the medium should be. Go cry somewhere else about Morrison being pretentious.

>>84564150
You're right, comics writing is inherently inferior to prose writing. Thanks for making my point for me.

>>84564081

Morrison isn't exactly the first writer to put himself into his own stories, chief.

Jesus Christ, you guys need to stop sperging out and acting dogmatic over any Grant Morrison criticism.

>>84564185
why is comics writing inherently inferior?

>>84564216
Kek fuck off OP Morrison was the savior of many many comic characters. Go to hell.

>>84564069
>Who is Moore, Gaiman OE Ellis

>>84564074
Final Crisis is great, it was just fucked up by useless tie-ins, massive delays, Superman Beyond not being billed as required reading, and above all else the fact that it reads a billion percent better in trade. And no one agrees that One Million is better.

>>84563801
he's probably more popular than grant

>>84564233
Holy shit, seriously? Even among comic book writers Morrison is pleb-tier shit.

>>84564240
Not good prose writers.

>>84563743
I don't really get his problem. Morrison is not subversive enough? Since when does every writer have to be subversive?

I do agree that Morrison is too much of a one-trick pony (though at least he does his one trick with enthusiasm which somewhat makes up for it). but this guy's argument doesn't really make sense.

>>84564209
So?

>>84564216
>Criticism

>>84563743
I agree 100%, I used to love Morrison but I just get bored now.

>>84564233
That doesn't make him untouchable, this kind of one way, with us or against us thinking is literally cancer.

>>84564260
>Animal Man
>Xmen
>Batman
>ASS
>Doom Patrol
>JLA

Thats 5 big name franchises off the top of my head that he pulled back from the brink.

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>>84564291

I love Animal Man. It was the first thing that I ever read from Morrison, so it will always have a special place in my heart, but it isn't the most original thing he ever wrote.

That would be the Filth.

>>84564279
>I don't really get his problem. Morrison is not subversive enough? Since when does every writer have to be subversive?

I sort of get it since Morrison tries to come off like he is subversive as part of his marketing but he's not subversive enough for the people who desire more subversiveness.

I still disagree with Mieville heavily though (even though I like his writing).

>>84564279
Morrison bills himself as a counter culture shaman, it's in his short bio in every trade or omnibus, his twitter, his site, his interviews, his masturbatory con and in most of his work.

>>84564337
Nobody said anything about it being original, chief.

>>84564392

Mieville did:
>And I really enjoyed bits of Animal Man (though the ending annoyed me - nowhere near as original or subversive as it seems to think)

The real question is what defining run on any big name A list comic character or team has this faggot wrote? Oh none?

Morrison 100, this fag 0

>>84563878
perdido street was absolute garbage. it seemed like it was weird for the sake of being weird.

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>>84563981
>Those books have pretty pictures and not a quadrillion words in them so therefor they're bad and childish ! Real Books are for the big boys like me!

wew

>>84564417
>>84564361
>>84564307
>>84564260
>>84564233
>>84564165
These posts sound so fake.

>>84564445

>Weird Fiction
>Weird for the sake of being weird

>>84564458
What's hilarious about that is Tolkien is considered one of the greatest fiction writers of all time and he advocated heavily for their to be drawn examples in his works.

>>84564414
Because he's an idiot. The beauty of the ending isn't that it's "original"

>>84564468
What does that even mean retard?

Just go away OP. You tried to insult one of the greatest writers in the industry and got laughed off the board. Now go cry.

>>84564468
I'm the second and third post, why do I sound fake? What did you mean by this?

>>84563841
He wrote the new meh one, not the old great one.

>>84563878
I think he works better in short form, teebeehaitch

>>84564178
This.

I loved the narrative with trying to make the crippled birdman fly again but it got derailed by politics and caterpillar induced drug-trips. It was so dense and bloated I gave up on it, and I hear the other two books are similar.

I want to read Kraken though.

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>>84564417

He had a damn good idea for an Iron Man arc, but it was rejected.

>The economic crisis bites. Flinton, MI, was built on industry, and the industry’s gone, since by far the city’s dominant company took the stimulus cheque, attacked wages, outsourced more and more, then finally all, R&D and production overseas. Flinton, like so many other towns, is dying.

>An extraordinary figure in bizarre makeshift power armour the colours of rust and hazard-warning yellow has appeared, fighting burglars, thieves, drug-dealers, graffiti-taggers. Flashback: he’s Dan, an ex-worker in one of the high-tech heavy defence plants, horrified at the social breakdown, going through the many scrapheaps of the town and cobbling together his suit from industrial junk, trying to save his home.

>Dan smashes up a crack house, but while most of those within run, one stays and jeers at him, calls him a bully. Dan knows her: Louise was the union rep at his factory. He’s ashamed: he always liked her. They get talking. ‘You really want to do right by Flinton?’ Louise says eventually. 'By all the other Flintons? Then quit messing with symptoms. It’s time to take down the real villain.’

>Louise has contacts. They gather together a group of laid-off workers, from all the fields and departments of the now-dead industry, who with their combined expertise add weapons, flight capability, computers to the armour. Over Dan’s initial resistance, Louise even insists they contact some of the overseas workers where the plants have been relocated, to get up-to-date information, technology, and help, because, Louise insists, they’re on the same side. They make the suit vastly more powerful.

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>>84563743

Nope. but then again nothing inherently wrong with that. lots of artists have themes they return to again and again.

I've wanted to read Zenith since i heard it described as Morrison doing Legion of Super Heroes. I could never make it through Invisibles but I love Mozz's Superhero stuff.

>>84564548

>Dan knows how to fight, but that isn’t enough. They put controls in the suit connected to a central hub in Flinton, into which they can log, so Dan will be in constant touch with the others, who can take control of different aspects of the system as necessary: so the other scrappers can help fight, the veteran who was once a sniper can aim the weapons, the one with a pilot’s licence can fly it, the techie can patch into data systems, and so on, and they can all strategise together. A single-bodied union. A collective superhero.

>They’re almost ready. They’re preparing to finish the cosmetic upgrade on the prototype suit: it still looks like junk. But Dan and Louise stop them.

>'No,’ Dan says. 'We need a symbol.'

>'Capitalists are a superstitious cowardly lot,’ Louise says. 'This fucker put our town out with the trash, threw us on the scrap heap. Well, the scrap heap’s got up, and it’s coming for him.’

>The crew take their places at the controls. Dan puts on the battered welding helmet that disguises his identity and, in a burst of rust, launches into the sky for New York, to face down the sociopathic authoritarian fascist arms-dealing corporate billionaire who left Flinton to rot, who’s responsible for so many countless deaths, in the US and around the world: Tony fucking Stark.

>Dan: 'Get ready for payback, Iron Man. We are Scrap Iron Man.'

>>84564507
>>84564515
Yep, still fake sounding.

>>84564361
How does his writing not back it up? Even if we're saying he's one trick pony, Flex Mentallo is a piece that came out at the time when Superheroes were in 90s edy gutters. They weren't something that were celebrated and it was subversive enough. Final Crisis came out at a time when Superheroes were being used at the highest platform to publish edgy garbage that claimed to change Superheroes every year. It was a reactionary piece. Multiversity came out at a time when fandom's reach has gone way beyond and nobody wants to let them know directly that it's a fucking problem. See Morrison isn't trying to write a subversive piece as much a reactionary piece that follows the tropes of subversion. I don't know where industry will be in 10 years and I can guarantee you that Morrison would still write his big reaction piece. If it's in a good place, maybe for once that reaction piece wouldn't be about criticizing and actually celebration.

>>84564548
>>84564574
That sounds like hot pretentious over stylized garbage with poor dialogue.

>>84564543

As much as I enjoy Perdido Street Station, it really did need to be edited better. There's a good thirty-fifty pages that could be totally excised for the betterment of the story.

>>84564572
but Invisibles is superhero stuff

>>84564414
Morrison acknowledged that fact in the piece itself.

>>84564548
That sounds fucking great -- An anti-corporate Iron Man of the blue collar man.

>>84564592

Dude, it's a story pitch. It's not meant to be representative of what the finished product would be.

>>84564603
At the time, but now I'd put it into the Spy genre that has emerged in comics over the last decade or so.

>>84564583
Was it autism? What did you mean by this?

>>84564634
I agree, those fake posts do sound autistic.

>>84564548
>>84564574
That sounds stupid, and you seem stupid for thinking it was a good idea.

>>84564628
no, it's still pretty much a cape comic

>>84564625
Since you didn't get it when the other guy commented, I'll try saying it a different way.

That's a shitty pitch and I'm glad it got rejected.

>>84564585
I have literally every single Grant Morrison comic, I have all of his Absolutes, all of his Omnibuses, you barely scratched the surface with your post, you didn't bring anything new and I don't think you can understand China's criticism, because he's not at odds with Grant's work, he's just putting it in a larger context.

>>84564718
No what hes doing is retroactively looking at work written long ago and saying "thats not so unique" when at the time it was.

>>84564687
>>84564654

How is it stupid or shitty? Tony Stark is the sort of person that spearheaded the destruction of American manufacturing. If Marvel treated him with real complexity, he's almost certainly put tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people out of work all while profiting off of warfare. Having his victims rise up against him would be a fantastic arc.

And besides, who doesn't like a sympathetic antagonist? Apparently you two.

>>84564718

Right. Like...notice how Mieville doesn't say that Morrison is bad, or that he isn't a worthwhile writer. Just that he's fallen into a rut that he doesn't seem to want to get himself out of.

But of course, this interview was before Morrison's run on Batman, where he wrote one of DC's most famous conservative characters with aplomb.

>>84564765

shit how haven't we seen that kinda story. Tony realizing that just because he doesn't make weapons doesn't mean he isn't ruining lives would be a great arc.

>>84564687
>totally not a samefag I swear

>>84564718
So you don't have an argument.
>I have literally every single Grant Morrison comic, I have all of his Absolutes, all of his Omnibuses
OK so you have all of Morrison's work on your HDD. Good to know.

>>84564765
>>84564819
Yeah Tony Stark, not some retard named Dan who isn't even rich and is a Steel rip off.

>>84564765
>Tony Stark is the sort of person that spearheaded the destruction of American manufacturing. If Marvel treated him with real complexity, he's almost certainly put tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people out of work all while profiting off of warfare.

Wasn't he the person that stopped profiting from warfare? This pitch assumes that he's still doing it.

>>84563743
L I T E R A L L Y W H O

>>84564883

It's more along the lines of, his business was founded on war profiteering. Whether he still does it or not, a substantial amount of his money has its genesis in arms manufacturing. It's kinda like how you can still come down hard against Monsanto for making Agent Orange, even if that was decades ago, or how Henry Ford was a Hitler sympathizer, or how Walt Disney was a union buster.

Grant may be a hipster faggot, but China Mieville is a fucking communist.

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>guy delivers extremely mild criticism of morrison's work and praises him where it's due
>fanboys chimp out

>>84565097
See >>84564468

The arguments in the thread are fake to bump the thread up and bait other people.

>>84565026

didn't that kinda happen to Danny Rand and he was like fuck it and starting giving money away

>>84563743
>trying to start shirt with grant

This only works if you're Millar or Moore not a nobody

>>84565133
You are more retarded then I thought possible

>>84564069
But China Melville isn't a good writer or even a writer an adult would enjoy.

its still childish nonsense

>>84565226
>>84565240
>Being this upset

Can't handle the bantz.

>>84565253
>>84565354
>>84565240

Jesus. 4chan really does destroy language, doesn't it?

>>84563878
King Rat was pretty boring.

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>>84565074
>China Mieville is a fucking communist
There's literally nothing wrong with communism you filthy classcuck

>>84566343
> communism
> it'll work this time, I swear

Sure buddy

I never liked Batman RIP

>>84566545
your parents never liked you

>>84564531
his Dial H is fucking fantastic, get taste

>>84566343
Could you imagine someone being 18+ and still being a communist? Its, quite literally, Teen Angst: the Ideology.

>>84564069
This argument would be a lot stronger if you weren't fronting china fucking mieville.

A lot of weird writers, like Ligotti, Barron and Pulver have a great deal of respect for comic book writers. This elitist act you're trying to pull is pathetic.

>>84567106

Shit, I don't think Weird Fiction would still even be a thing if it wasn't for comics.

>>84567106
He's either memeing or mentally ill.

>>84564089
>Labels are for normies
>Said while applying labels to others

>>84563743
>Zenith
>15 years ago

Did you seriously dig up an interview from 10 years ago just to shitpost, OP?

Yes, Morrison fans are autistic and his work is derivative and childish garbage. No, we don't need to be reminded every fucking day.

>>84564543
>>I want to read Kraken though.

Don't. It was my first Mieville book after reading Dial H. Horrendously paced and bogged down with a lot of nonsense, and the ending is anti-climactic as fuck.

>>84567480
>and his work is derivative and childish garbage.
If Flex Mentallo fits this description, then childish garbage is the peak of the medium.

>>84566933

But...that's Objectivism.

>>84567458
>with no identity
>with no
>with
>no
>identity

>>84567480
Not fooling anybody, OP.

>>84566933
Teenagers don't generally want equal distribution of goods regardless of capability...

I've taught at a high school for some time now and most of them tend to swing their banner in favor of socialist meritocratic ideologies.

>>84563878
Should I be reading China Mieville's books then? I'm always interested in weird stuff like that.

>>84567639
Oh! My bad.

>Labels are for normies with no identity
>Said while applying labels to others

>>84563914
>Morrison's biggest problem is that he writes comics for Morrison and Morrison only
How fucking stupid are you? If writers aren't writing for themselves then they're just making garbage made to appeal to as many people as possible, or pandering to a specific crowd.

>>84563743
Have always believed China Mieville and Grant Morrison are alternate universe versions of each other tbqh.

>>84567683

If you like Weird Fiction, and can enjoy a totally unconventional narrative for more than five hundred pages, then yes. But if that seems like a bit much, which is understandable, then no.

>>84567724

Yeah, it's an Earth-0/Earth-2 sorta thing where they're really similar, but just different enough to be interesting.

>>84564051
I love almost everything Morrison has done but Final Crisis is a disaster

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>>84567752

>>84567695
Normie is not a label. It's a derivative of pleb and is an actual group of people. The Romans used it predominantly. There is actually a group of people ie the vast majority that are less intelligent. As Caesar said, plebs will be plebs.

>>84564051
Final Crisis is complete garbage considering it basically requires you to have to read a tie-in mini, a tie-in one shot (neither of which are indicated as required reading) and Seven Soldiers of Victory to even remotely understand what the fuck is going on and even then it's still kind of a disjointed mess.

>>84563743
That line about Morrison being shallow for his stories having the same lesson as a Robin Williams film is such shit, really explains why Melville's stories are never fucking about anything. No one ever tell this nigga that it ain't about what it's about, it's about how it's about what it's about?

>>84568304
meme

>>84567683
His imagery and world building are quite cool but it never amounts to anything. Everything I've read from him has been engrossing but ultimately disappointing and forgettable.

>>84567705
It's possible to write for yourself while still having a wide appeal but it can reach a point where it becomes more self-indulgent than anything. This tends to happen to a lot of writers after a long period of time i.e. Miller and his more right-wing "something needs to be done about (problems)" stuff or Claremont's fetishes. Morrison can get that way a lot too.

>>84567729
Where should I start with him then?

>>84569938

Perdido Street Station is the best that I've read from him, but it's also enormous. Probably best for you to go with the City and the City, which is less than three hundred pages. It's a detective story based in a city that exists parallel of another city.

>>84563743
>Is he wrong?
No

I'm 100% with him on Animal Man's ending being the weakest part

>>84570022
As a counterpoint I, another anon, would strongly recommend Embassytown as his best book, recommend the Bas-Lag stuff but suggest you skip The City and the City entirely.

>>84570095

>skip the City and the City entirely

Why? I'm about a quarter in and I'm really digging it.

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>>84563743
>China Mieville
>Bitching about someone else's opinions on mysticism
>"This isn't weird enough for me, so it's bad!"

Holy fuck, my sides. Nigga still ain't learned that it ain't about ideas, it's about execution, and Mieville's execution is *shit*. Not that Morrison's is particularly great, but I've straight up dropped Mieville's shit halfway through on both Perdido Street Station and King Rat, which are his only real accomplishments.

>>84570055
>I'm 100% with him on Animal Man's ending being the weakest part
I actually read it recently and the kind of ending Morrison was going for, it could've been horrible. But the execution was just perfect. The self awareness about everything made it work.

>>84563914
>Morrison's biggest problem is that he writes comics for Morrison and Morrison only

I disagree, I don't think he;s writing for himself, he's writing for the fans he already has. It's a common trap entertainers/artists fall into where they establish a fanbase with their early work and end up just producing material that just emulates what people liked in their early work.

>>84566933
>Teen Angst: the Ideology
Libertarianism or fascism

>>84567665
>equal distribution of goods regardless of capability
That's not communism. Communism is about public ownership of the means of production. From there people would be free to keep the full fruits of their labour.

>socialist meritocratic ideologies.
No such thing. You're thinking of social democracy.

To anyone defending Mieville's tripe: Why not go read One Hundred Years of Solitude?

Mexican magical realism kicks the shit out of everything your supposedly great prose writer did. Same for Morrison, for that matter. It's a brutal fucking prison rape of a cage match where the luchador wins in the weirdest way possible.

I'm not even annoyed about the "/lit/ is better than /co/" claim, jesus, it's incomparibly older as a medium. Of course it has been figured out more. I'm just annoyed by /lit/'s crap literary taste.

(Well, older unless you count political comics as the same thing as modern comics and use a REALLY loose definition of "political comic", which I don't, but that's a discussion for another time.)

>>84570386
>One Hundred Years of Solitude
It's been on my to read list for awhile, after learning how much of an influence it was on Gilbert Hernandez

>>84570386
It's a joke that you think you can just 1v1 blanket compare Mieville, Morrison and Marquez like that. Total lack of consideration to content and context - don't act like you understand shit.

>>84570198
>But the execution was just perfect
The execution of The Coyote Gospel was perfect. Morrison working with he same ideas at the end of the run came off as pretentious. He sits there and explains the whole point like he thinks it's too high concept for his audience

>>84570386
>>84570468
also
>Mexican

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>>84570468
But I did just now, it's true, and you're just whining. :^)

>>84570386
>Marquez
>Mexican

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>>84570521
>>84570501
Don't even pretend Colombians are substantially different from Mexicans.

>>84570386
all the big magical realism authors aren't even Mexican

>>84570517
>>84570583
You're either young or dumb, anon. Your choice.

>>84564583
now you're just boring

>>84570493
>pretentious
dropped your post here

>>84570851
I know what the word means and I used it correctly.

>>84563743
I don't disagree really but this is kind of with the assumption that Morrison himself is trying to be groundbreaking and subversive with his writing and 'ohh let's take this and turn it on its fucking head'. Morrison writes what he fucking likes, what his interests are. You show me Chinas work 15-20 years from now and say this isn't cliche/typical Melville content. I feel the same way about almost every author I can think of. They have a style of writing they have themes they like to address. Does it really qualify as cliche just because you've read it before?

>>84570386
Is this pasta?

Also, Garcia Marquez was Colombian, not Mexican.
Yes, comics arent high art like 100 years od Solitude.

The reason why I read more comics as an adult than when I was a kid are 2.
-Less free time available (it is similar to someone who still plays videogames as an adult, but only short ones, not 100 hours rpgs)
-Getting hooked, which is the same sensation a housewife feels with regards to TV Soap Operas.

I dont know if Juan Rulfo was translated into English, but if you like 100 years of solitude you should read his work. He originated than genre, and is considered a genius even though he only wrote 2 short books.

>>84570949
>the assumption that Morrison himself is trying to be groundbreaking and subversive with his writing

That's the impression he gives off

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Whole lot of angry Morrison-fags

>>84570965
Actually, it was a combination of shitposting and making sure that yes, these are actually /lit/ fucktards and not native /co/ posters, as the latter would've gotten the Achewood joke rather than getting pissy that I got someone from the southern hemisphere's nationality wrong.

Thanks for the rec, though. Seems interesting.

>>84571049
meme

I am a Morrison fan and I largely agree with OP.

>>84571061
Or they just don't read Achewood m8.
>I was only pretending to be retarded!

Why is subversion and negational opposition so highly valued?

>>84564181
>Ellis has been writing same protagonists since the Stormwatch
Dod you not read Stormwatch? Winter is totally different from the Grimcedge you're talking about

>>84570095
>skip The City and the City entirely
Nah that's a great book

>>84564543
Kraken is great, don't listen to the other guy. Pacing is decent, there's a bit of a shift after the protagonist is removed from his bubble and then it's pretty constant throughout and above all it's a story that is heavily conspiracy-minded and doesn't take itself too seriously

>>84571197
Nah most of the cast he writes is just Ellis' archetypes with very little to no 3 dimensionality, same nihilistic profile and characterization. Look at Injection or Thunderbolts or Karnak.

>>84570246
Did you really expect an American to know what communism actually means?

>>84571282
I'm basically waiting for him to put an idealized Laurie Penny in a book now that he's starting stroking her off in social media constantly. His old man crush on her actually was what made me unsub from his mailing list. Shit's creepy.

Sounds like he just dislikes Invisibles, which I agree with. Invisibles does kinda suck, a lesser of his works and does retread a lot of his other ideas in a sloppy way. That's not enough for me to dismiss the rest of Morrison's other writing, though.

>>84571329
desu I don't expect anybody to know what communism is. Yurofags seem to be just as ignorant.

>>84571376

>one of Morrison's comics got adapted into a movie
>doesn't even get acknowledgement
>it's not even one of his better works

>>84571415
GiTS had bigger influence on Matrix my man.

>>84568343
100% agree with this, the worlds are always way more interesting than the actual story, some pretty interesting concepts though.

>>84563743
wat

>>84563743
a communist insulting a crazy man
he's no wrong, but fuck Mieville too, talentless hack
Morrison is pretty dumb too

remember, Millar is the most successful comic creator of our time, followed by Bendis

>>84563743

I agree that Grant plays the same card too many times.

I'm not going to say I agree or disagree with Mieville - I just want to say Morrison is not the be all end all of comics, comics thought, and "comics discourse". In a sense, I think Morrison gets put on a pedestal far too much, in so much that his work has become criticism-proof because others won't allow it, deeming people "hipster shits" for not sharing the same opinion. I do think Morrison has done great work, but I don't think his work is criticism proof. and I think this thread needs to take a step back and re-evaluate their dedication to one author's defense

>>84576146
I think you're trying too hard to fit in.

>>84576211
Appealing to reason won't work. This board is fucking garbage now.

>>84570246
>communism is about the people owning the means of production
>communism is about equal distribution of goods

These are not mutually exclusive. You must be fucking retarded.

http://philosophy.fas.nyu.edu/docs/IO/19808/Allen-Wood-Marx-on-Equality.pdf

>>84576820
And you helped with your little shitpost here.

>>84566701
>>84564531
>>84563841
there's a new Dial H?

>>84563743

As always, China Mieville is right.

I love Grant Morrison and I read everything he puts out, but he has become lazy or at least too comfortable. The Filth and We3 were the last things I found to be genuinely "new".

I differ from Chine Mieville in that I love The Invisibles. While it can essentially be described as a dumbed down Illuminatus!, I think Grant is really good with descriptions of altered states and abstract states of mind in general. The Invisibles has a lot of that.

>that time when Morrison calmly BTFO'd Moore
http://www.comicsbeat.com/the-strange-case-of-grant-morrison-and-alan-moore-as-told-by-grant-morrison/

>Mieville's bald too
Why are all comic writers like this?

>>84579127
Because they are beta males.
Why do you think they write these power fantasies?

>>84571363
Has it got that bad? She's definitely his type (Young, thin-ish, privileged metropolitan lefty with Views) but last time I bothered to check she just seemed like his crush of the week.

And we both know if he wanted to add her he'd just make the Jenny Sparks archetype a journalist activist (as opposed to Spider Jerusalem, who is a columnist activist)

>>84576211
I think one of the reasons people seem to put Morrison on a pedestal is that he's one of the only British Invasion era writers who still writes capes for the Big Two (OK, just DC these days) almost exclusively. The rest all went off to do their own projects like novels, swore off from American corporate comics for life, or were never particularly involved in traditional superhero comics to begin with, but from the very beginning Morrison has only really wanted to do a certain kind of American cape comic. His 2000AD-era work that's not Zenith is patchy at best, with some real stinkers mixed in. The Chaos/Order thing Mieville mentions also comes up repeatedly even before The Invisibles, in Zenith but also pretty hamfistedly in Kid Eternity. Pretty sure there's other examples as well.

Morrison's very good at self-promoting and deliberately says and does things to appear controversial. At the same time, DC pushes him very hard as quite hard as their resident genius writer, in part because he doesn't particularly rock the boat when it comes to stuff like creator rights. In the eyes of the average comic reader, Comics=Capes and Morrison's one of the only high-profile writers with a world-class reputation who still almost exclusively writes them.

>>84579502
>The Chaos/Order thing Mieville mentions also comes up repeatedly even before The Invisibles, in Zenith but also pretty hamfistedly in Kid Eternity

That ruined Kid Eternity for me. It was so fucking superficial. What a tweest, indeed.

what's the last interesting thing that Morrison has written that didn't deal with meta bullshit? I'll wait

It wasn't WW E2

>>84579796
Not allowing meta stuff feels like a weird distinction

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>>84563801
Mieville is far more successful than Morrison. Try reading something other than comics from time to time.

>>84563975
>some of his other shit comes off as "Look at my clever idea, isn't so clever?" pretentious wankery.
So Morrison?

>>84563743
While I enjoy pissing off morrisonfags, I wish there would be something meatier.

Btw, fuck morrison, only bendis is worse than him.

>>84564335
Keep being delusional, idiot

So, are morrisonfags the easiest to troll?
Is there anyone easier?

>>84563743
Lot of assumptions about what Morrison is trying to be/to do. He has put Morrison in a box and now that Morrison doesn't seem to fit in it anymore, Morrison is done?
Another fan who wants artists/writers to do what fans want.
Morrison's work is genius because of his metatextual examination of the comic form. Whatever societal argument you think he's making, is not the important part in his work.

>>84563743
Read the interview further. Dude actually critiques art badly because it doesn't fit his political view. Dude is clearly a moron.

>>84563743
>Like, the whole thing with The Invisibles - Chaos equals Good/Creative/Life-affirming, Order equals Bad/Deadening/Fascist etc.
He didn't really get it.

>>84563743
Sauce: http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/intchina.htm

>>84580160
You can argue that it might not be an "important" part of his work, but you cannot deny that it is nonetheless A part of his work, meaning he is still putting something forward that could and will potentially be criticised. How harshly you put emotional weight on any aspect of any artistic whatever all depends on you, and the placing of "importance" on one aspect ignoring parts of other aspects can mean investigating said aspect further without being bogged down by all the other details.

Also Mieville isn't just another fan, and his argument has nothing to do with submission to fan pressure. The criticism still stands.

>>84580160
Too bad that morrison sucks and didn't write a single good comic book

>>84580179
There is nothing to get. Invisible is pseudo-artistic wankery. I'm surprised that he even bothered to read this crap. Dude should get a medal for that.

>>84580229
The Invisibles was a massive metatextual experiment based on the hypothesis that comics, by being composed of a temporal element (text) and a spatial element (illustration), hold a special meaning for and power over ideas defined only by their opposite, such as space/time, good/evil, order/chaos, and seeming/substance.
Frankly, it's a failed experiment, but Mieville's criticism serves only to betray his own lack of perception.

>>84580259
Failed Experiment: autobiography of Morrison

>>84580265
WE3, The Filth, Zenith, Doom Patrol, and Batman all did basically what he wanted them to. He just bit off more than he could chew with The Invisibles.

>>84580295
I imagine Morrison sitting sad in his gown, drinking wine, playing some smooth chill out music, and reminiscing his former glory, behind the curtains.

And thinking "ven did eet go wronk?"
And looking in the mirror and wondering if he can summon another succubus

>>84563743
I don't know why I should care about what he has to say. Sure, Morrison isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I still enjoy his work. I don't care about anyone else's criticism of him, because not everyone is perfect.

Honestly, if you like something, why should you give a fuck about what others have to say?

>>84580339
Good question. Why are you posting in this thread, then?

>>84580347
Killing time.

>>84580355
Same here. Albeit I should stop procrastinating

I thought the point of the invisibles was accepting change into ones life even if it means betraying your younger idealism which is why there is no good or bad guys in the book.

>>84580330
When did he become a german?

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>>84563743
>Like, the whole thing with The Invisibles - Chaos equals Good/Creative/Life-affirming, Order equals Bad/Deadening/Fascist etc.
Now hold on a minute.

I thought the whole idea wasn't that one was "good" or "bad" but that they were both ultimately the same?

That's why the Invisibles used the same indoctrination techniques from time to time, that's why they were still scummy murderers, that's why at the very end it was okay to be a corporate stooge.

>>84563743

Literally who is this queer?

DUDE LOOKS LIKE A LESS HANDSOME / CHARISMATIC MORRISON

>>84563878
Look pal I'm not reading 'prose' where the author's name is bigger than the title, I'd sooner read your autobiography.

>>84564543
>Dense and bloated
I read Perdido Street Station expecting something fun and unusual, and that's exactly what I got out of it. I read it in like four days, between work and classes.

>I want to read Kraken though.
Kraken seemed to me to be too similar to Unknown Armies. Since Mieville's a fan of /tg/ related things, it might even be a slightly modified ripoff of the game. I still found it fun, though.

>>84564209
Is that a Robert Rankin ref, or am I just reading too much into it, Sunday lunchtime anon?

>>84580229
>>84580265
Sounds like you didn't get it either.

>>84580076
>>84579986
>>84580093
>>84580103
>being this desperate for (you)s that you have to post multiple times in a row

kek

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>a leftist faggot hating on a deranged occultist

even though both have some amount of story-telling talent who the fuck cares

>>84579796
Unless you count occult magic wankery meta than Nameless. Klaus is pretty fun too but it's a blatant movie pitch.

84582176
>who the fuck cares
(you)

>>84563743
This reads like a fedorathiest wrote it.

The only way it could be worse is if he used the word "woo."

>>84563878
I fucking love this guy. Reading the scar right now

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>>84564091

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>>84564994
Try picking up a copy of Perdido street station. I had fun reading it, but I can see why it's not everybody's thing. Who knows, you might like it.

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>>84566697
Sick

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>>84581110
Almost quads

>>84582441
Read it last year. It's my favourite book now. Iron Council is the weakest of three, in my opinion, but it's still good.

>>84570246
>you're thinking of social democracy
dunno, if we're talking teen angst, he might be right they want a "socialist meritocratic system" because, as a teenage know it all, they assume they would be at the top of this system.
So they want everyone to be happy and have the stuff they need, but they themselves should be in charge and have a little more, because teen angsting narcissists. Democracy means they'd have to listen to the opinions of people who aren't them.

>>84563743
Anyone else thought that was Morrison in op pic

>>84583160
I'm only halfway through The Scar, but I've been loving the underwater cities and the remade

>>84579796
Thunder world?

>>84571363
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj9dA6E3fJw

>>84583249
I don't know what kind of teen you were but your way of thinking then was a bit frightening.

Meritocratic system is favored by teens because in school, your success is link to one set of define capabilities (academic's ones). That's what we taught to kids: "if you work hard, you'll get good grades." So it seems like a fair system. And fairness is also something we teach to kids. Teens wouldn't mind to be paid less than someone they know is better.

Of course, when you're a teen, you don't realised that there are many different set of skills that aren't equivalent or even comparable.
And you don't wonder how those at the base of the ladder will be treated in a meritocracy.

>>84583249
>>84585098
I was the one who responded wtih socialist meritocracy, and it is, from what I've seen, as >>84583249
interpreted it.

>>84564601
I admit, I read it solely because he makes a dig at the murderhobos/adventurers. And he knew exactly where to make it. Honestly he built a wonderfully setting for an RPG.

>>84564548
>>84564572
This sounds cool as fuck. Too bad Disney and RDJ has ruined any kind of storytelling you can do with Tony Stark. I bet it would have gotten the greenlight if it was Roxxon.

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>>84570095

>strongly recommend Embassytown as his best book
Quite right.

>>84586177
IIRC Bas-Lag has its roots in Mieville's old RPG campaigns. (Think it was D&D)

>>84563743
I just read up on this guy. He's a self-important communist douche who considers himself superior to Tolkien. Anything he says can be readily dismissed.

>>84579127
To hide male pattern baldness.

>>84588748
> who considers himself superior to Tolkien

He just hates that how much of Tolkien's influence informs the way people who don't read Fantasy novels view them. He thinks there is a lot of great fantasy fiction out there that people dismiss because people associate the genre with nothing but elves and dwarfs

>>84579502
Ennis, Milligan and Ellis have done some big two work in past years.
>Ellis is inconsistent as fuck
>Milligan has gone down the gutters
>Ennis is still the shit, but still not as consistent as Morrison, since he writes a lot more than him.
>Moore had an inconsistent phase.
>Never mind Millar
>Gaiman doesn't write many comics
Morrison still remains one of the best British invasion writer, in spite of his big two work garnering more attention.