Just finished reading this. What the fuck did I just read?

The send off to pre-crisis Superman

>>84437897
A shoddily executed send off to pre-Crisis Superman that people give more praise than it deserves because of Alan Moore.

>>84437897
"superfolks" rip-off

>>84437897
Storytime it.

>>84437897
Its one never ending trip of depression Christ it isn't even an else-world tale it was made to be a canonical ending to the Superman ongoing

>>84437936
>because of Alan Moore.
And Curt Swan. He was THE Silver Age Superman artist after all

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>>84437936
How could one man have such shit taste...

>>84437989
Yeah the art itself is great but the story is just so totally depressing

>>84437962
>storytime a comic that everyone has already read
But why?

>>84437962
Yeah can anyone storytime this?

>>84438043
Why can't you storytime it?

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>>84437897
I'm more of a Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader type of Guy.

>>84438064
Don't have a source and my internets going to shit

>>84438026
I haven't read it. And I probably won't for a very long time.

>>84438026
It was fun that one time someone storytimed For the Man Who Has Everything. It's nice to pick up on subtleties that others saw which you personally may have missed.

>>84438064
>>84438085
Plus it's like 2 in the morning for me

>>84438077
Is there a semen stain on that camera?

>>84438098
That's fair. One of the benefits of communal reading.

>>84438077
Where's this from?

>>84438077
I can't stand Gaiman, his comics work or his prose work

>>84438105
Knowing the Riddler, most likely.
>>84438126
Reread my post.
>>84438148
It's not for everyone, I personally adore it.

>>84437897
A rather paradoxical argument by Moore where he exposes why the Silver-age constraints of Superman's character would not permit him to enter the modern age, and yet he has since gone on repeatedly to denounce any recreation of the character that in turn fits within the modern world.

You've also read the story that exposes anyone who ever tells you "Superman doesn't kill"to be a complete moron and is pleading a very select case that does not exist at all within modern conception of the character.

Finally you've read Moore's dismissal of the Superman premise where he concludes the story by having Clark take a shit on the nobility and purpose of the character and reduces "Superman" to being a man who was too hung up on himself and found real happiness by focusing on his own family and life instead of trying to better the world.

The story itself has a shit ton of feels moments

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>>84438266

>>84438026
I haven't.

>>84438024

Oh no, not a depressing Superman story!

>>84438248
>A rather paradoxical argument by Moore where he exposes why the Silver-age constraints of Superman's character would not permit him to enter the modern age, and yet he has since gone on repeatedly to denounce any recreation of the character that in turn fits within the modern world.

I don't get it. What's paradoxical about this? He exposed why Superman couldn't enter the modern age and THAT'S PRECISELY WHY he denounces any recreation of the character that fits within the modern world

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Proof that Alan Moore doesn't fucking get Superman, or superheroes in general.

I don't know why more people can't see this. Alan Moore simply doesn't understand superheroes, period. I think he's too fucking English to understand superheroes, which are fundamentally rooted in the American ethos and worldview. All of Moore's superhero stories, from this to The Killing Joke to For The Man Who Has Everything and beyond, all of them really miss the point of superheroes.

Watchmen is GOAT because it's a masterpiece of storytelling and composition, but also because it's Moore actually taking his lack of understanding of superheroes and applying it to original characters where he could fully explore his ideas without fear of editorial reprisal.

>>84438348
>I don't know why more people can't see this. Alan Moore simply doesn't understand superheroes, period. I think he's too fucking English to understand superheroes, which are fundamentally rooted in the American ethos and worldview. All of Moore's superhero stories, from this to The Killing Joke to For The Man Who Has Everything and beyond, all of them really miss the point of superheroes.

Someone doesn't know shit about Supreme and Tom Strong.

>>84438347
Because his premise is that what limits Superman from being an actual character within modernity is the constraints of a Silver-Age moral founding. But modern comics have shown that Superman can still be "Super" without the Sliver-Age. Moore himself wrote another Superman story that doesn't have such strict adherence to a hazy moral system and even features a bloodlusted Superman for a moment.

Moore has written a modern Superman yet dismisses his own character.

>>84438326
I don't have a problem with it being depressing in fact tge sad moments are used pretty well

>>84438348
What exactly is the point of "superheroes". Your argument is just full of undefined terms throwing around phrases like "rooted in the American ethos" but this means absolutely nothing without any further information.

>>84438414
>Alan Moore disregards his own work to be grumpy
Water: WET.

>>84438445
What's Moore problem anyways he acts an asshole while denouncing his work for being dark and gritty and being responsible for decades of dark a gritty stories

>>84438442
The common man wielding impossible power. The individual wielding great strength for the benefit of the many. The judicious use of force in the service of the greater good. Basically, superheroes have amazing, awe-inspiring power, but they live like common people (secret identities) and use that power only for the benefit of the people.

That's EXTREMELY American. That state of mind is something we more or less invented. Superheroes are the sci-fi/fantasy embodiment of civic consciousness and democratic ideals.

>>84438445
Stop with this meme. Moore always explains himself. Most of the time he still admits pride in what he's written and his attitude toward the work is only related to the money side of things.

You can ask the man about Watchmen or anything else and he will show enthusiasm and speak highly of what he accomplished in that book (the only story I've seen him straight out reject was The Killing Joke simply because it was for a pay-check). His animosity stems from how he was treated when it came to his contract.

>>84438470
Uh, what?

Moore's problem with modern comics isn't that they are dark and gritty but what that type of story does to the heroes.

>>84438532
What does that type of story do to the heroes?

>>84438491
How does Moore miss this point? WHTTMOT epitomizes what you just said but simultaneously shows why that fiction only works in fiction. Moore is well aware that Superman is an analogue for the American ideal but as a Brit he's also more conscious that America's opinion of itself and how the world/reality sees America are not at all the same.

So when that new Superpower starts pushing itself out into the world stage (when Superman enters the modern era) it starts to realize that it can't always save the day.

>>84438348
>>84438364

Yeah, Moore understands superheroes and Superman, in particular, just fine. He'd kind of have to to know how to pick them apart so thoroughly in the first place.

"Whatever Happened...?" just suffers from being a bit TOO 80's Alan Moore, really. Despite being apparently sincere, it can come off as a bit of parody. The contrast between old school Superman, his supporting cast, etc, and all the fucking mayhem and death just seems a bit silly. Like one of those really ridiculously grim fanfics that's based on a children's cartoon.

>>84438491
>That's EXTREMELY American
let me guess you have never been in outside america

>>84438470
He's mad that people took the wrong lesson from his work. Read his 90's work like Supreme and 1963. Both are upbeat stories where Moore takes on the edgy, dark heroes of the day.

>>84438583
I suppose it's an effective analogy, I just don't think it makes a good sendoff for Silver Age Superman, who actually did always save the day.

I guess I just prefer Morrison's take on it: that Superman actually is as good as we want him to be. I think showing the failure of the ideal sort of misses the point of the ideal in the first place.

>>84438537
Have you ever read Watchmen?

Ok let's just look at Batman. The 70s start to introduce all these psychological trauma's that heroes go through right? Suddenly you start to see stories that emphasis the mental effects of reality within characters who mirror world events. IE molestation becomes a hot topic so we thrown in a character who was molested once. And that plays a part in the development of the character. And all this gets written rather well and its a nice plot.

Except the whole thing has one major flaw. It's main character (Batman) is a walking psychopath who deals with the death of his family by beating up people in dark alleys. So a comic that wants to focus on a psychological problem just ignores the walking epitome of fucked up upbringing. But this is never addressed. Or, when it is actually written, the hero becomes something they are not. Batman becomes that psychopath which completely removes him from being in anyway the character he is supposed to be.

Moore's complaint is that modern comic writers half assed it all. They either undermine whatever substantive point they wanted to make or they completely alter the existing hero into something they aren't.

>>84438667
>Have you ever read Watchmen?
Yes. Why did you just start talking about something completely different?
>Moore's complaint is that modern comic writers half assed it all.
Well that's something I can agree with, them not

>>84438693
Because if you understood Watchmen you wouldn't have asked the question to begin with.

Should I storytime this, or nah?

>>84438755
Okay. Nice talk.
>>84438761
Please do.

>>84438761
Yah you should

>>84438761
Yes

>>84437897
The work of an imp who ought to spend a millenia feeling guilty.

>>84438126
Secret Origins Special Vol 2. #1

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OK, doing it.

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>>84438804
As in this imp?

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Including the introduction.

>>84438825
Thanks anon you're the best

>>84438827
This story show how lucky we are that these guy aren't real

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>>84438839
no problem

>>84438855
This cover is basically juxtaposition to the storyies tone

>>84438902
What a twist who would of thought Clark Kent is superman?

>>84438895
Opposite of living is dead

>>84438919
Christ why is this story so dark it's classic superman for fucks sake

>>84438942
Bizzaro am imperfect duplicate now.

Could you please do the Batman one after this?

>>84439021
I second this.

>>84438980
I always thought the Fortress of Solitude was on Antarctica.

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>>84439021
>>84439035
Eh, sure. I got nothing better to do.

>>84439041
Nah. North Pole always made more sense, with the Superman = Jesus = Santa Claus = etc. etc. references.

>>84437897
I always thought the story was pretty overrated myself though I did enjoy Moore's 2 other Superman stories as well as Supreme.

>>84438987
The classics Lana and Lois love triangle

>>84439049
At least this explains why Santa had a Fortress of Solitude in South Park.

>>84439013
The feels

>>84439021
I approve this

>>84439074
RIP Supersmart Baldy.

>>84439056
At least batman and robin are putting in a team effort

>>84439105
RIP Superman's Best Friend and Kryptodick, the man with a Kryptonite dick.

>>84439105
This one hits me the hardest.

>>84439091
Brainiac after murdering jimmy is now piloting the freezing corpse of Luthor, fuck this is heavy

>>84439105
Now this just hurts

>>84439119
>>84439122
>>84439128
These fifth dimensional wizards are fucking terrifying

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>>84439056

>batman and robin out there just clubbing the force field with sticks

>>84439074
Kind of annoyed Luthor went out like a bitch like this. I guess Moore just considered him a member of Superman's rogues like any other.

>>84439155
Brainiac did as well.

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The end.

Also, for archive purposes, I'll mention the name of the comic:

Superman: Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow
Superman 423
Action Comics 583

>>84439148
He better have told the Leauge at least.

>>84439160
Danke.

>>84439168
Even if they weren't told, I'm sure they know
And I'm sure Lois isn't actually telling the truth about what happened

>>84438126
>>84438191
It's part of Secret Origins Special #1, "When Is A Door...?" by Neil Gaiman.

It's essentially a meta story in which a television crew films Riddler as he laments the loss of innocence in comics from the Silver Age and the Batman '66 television series (to which all of the villain names and the nightclub mentioned refer), wherein everything was played more lightheartedly than modern comics.

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>>84439148

Oh, wait, Elliot there is Clark? Is that whats going on?

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Now onto
Batman: Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader
which features Batman 686 and Detective Comics 853

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Introduction by Neil Gaiman.

>>84439249
Yep. He let people believe he was dead so that he could settle down with Lois and live a normal, happy life.

>>84439251
Now that is a good comic.

>>84438954

Why is there a whore in a classic Superman story? Moores a fucking hack

>>84437970
It's an elseworld, or an imaginary story.

>>84439105
NOT THE DOG!!

>>84438994

Was she dead or something?

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>>84439404
Yes. This is after COIE, so she's dead.

>>84439056
IS THAT MOTHERFUCKING VARTOX BATTERING THE SHIELD?

>>84439382
This one always gets me.

>>84438026
>storytime a comic that everyone has already read
>/co/ reading anything

>>84439394
What would actually happen if someone tried being Batman in real life.

>>84439402
Gets me everytime.

>>84439149

BEHOLD! SUPERMAN'S GREATEST RIVAL!

>>84439477
The Original Red Hood, holy shit.

>>84439501
This is like All-Star Superman levels of good.

>>84439530
>>84439525
That Spawnesque cape, instaboner.

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GOAT.

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probably a good reference page for the recent Batman #1

>>84439590
>>84439585
This got deep.

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The end for this one. And moving on!

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Because one of the images was posted, might as well storytime the two smaller Batman stories in this book that Gaiman wrote.

>>84439636
We need another great... Any ideas?

>>84439643
>>84439648
Nevermind.

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waifu material incoming

>>84439249
>>84439148

Are you sure Eliot isn't just raising another man's child?

>>84439664
>Fucking over Scarecrow
Goddamnit man.

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i-is that....?

>>84439752
The ending bit of the Riddler grinning in the dark was a bit too spoopy for this characterization.

>>84439780
And that's really all for now, folks.

If this is up in like 5-6 hours, I could maybe do "For the Man Who Has Everything", too.

>>84439790
That would be nice.

>>84439249
Or is Elliot raising Supermans baby without knowing it? Like in the Superman Returns movie

>>84439613
>>84439616
>>84439625
Such a powerful and beautiful ending.
Thank you for the storytime.

>>84439148
>>84439839
Come on guys it's pretty clear that's supes, the name Elliot is a play on Kal-El and the final wink seals the deal

>>84439668
Does this reference the time when joker was Iran's UN ambassador ?

>>84440047
yeah, that whole bizarre sequence really undermines Death In The Family imo

First time reading these Batman and Superman stories and I can say that they sucked. Thanks for posting them anyways.

>>84439768
>>84439773
>complete strangers discuss about the characters they don't know but who the wiever knows well
Best worldbuilding trope in capeshit

>>84440105
Well meme'd, friendo

>>84440138
Wasn't a meme, but believe what you want.

>>84438957

Bart
'Alan Moore! You wrote my favorite issues of Radioactive Man!

Moore
'Oh really? So you like that I made your favorite superhero a heroin addicted jazz critic that isn't radioactive?'

>>84439139
Who is the sleeveless guy in long boots?

>>84440535

Vartox; he's an alien, whose look is based on Sean Connery in "Zardoz". His wife died when an Earthwoman was murdered (the women were linked, somehow. I guess quantum entanglement -- Vartox referred to her as his wife's "bionic twin"), so he came to Earth to arrest the guy, and fought Superman. He has some pretty nutty powers.

>>84440595
>power-wise, he's basically Superman plus astral projection plus he can transfer his powers to others

Hahaha holy shit

>>84440595
Why is he in this story? I guess Alan Moore must have been a fan.

>>84438667
"which completely removes him from being in anyway the character he is supposed to be."

In your opinion. This is why a lot of us don't mind BvS and love Miller's Bats, while a lot of people hate it.I don't Batman isn't "supposed" to be anything but a guy that beats up criminals in a bat-themed costume.

Anything else is the reader injecting "not muh".

>>84439107
>Lori Lemaris statue
Never noticed this when I first read it.

>>84440748

Yeah, I caught that this time too.

>>84439249
I always thought of it as Jordan Elliot = Jor-El, and Clark's a father now so that name seems pretty apt.

>>84441092
>Jordan Elliot = Jor-El

MIND = BLOWN

>>84438491
ITT: anon buys into propagandized US history

>>84439768
ahahaha fucking constantine

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>>84438077
>The Joker's killing people, for God's sake!

Yea we know Eddy, he's been a remorseless psychopathic serial killer since his first apperance

>>84439148
>Lois marries the Comedian

>>84438491
>That's EXTREMELY American

Explain how.

>>84439147
Indeed. Considering how much power they actually wield, it's a good thing they spend most of their time being annoyances rather than threats.

>>84441327
During the era where Riddler and most of the villains he's talking about were operating, he wasn't.

ITT: /co/ntarians with garbage taste.

You guys suck sometimes.

>>84441731

Pretty sure it's just a case of /co/ not understanding a love letter to an entire era of comics because /co/ doesn't read comics.

Somebody story time Gerber's superior farewell to Pre crisis Superman.

>>84438348
Wrong. You just don't know the difference between a deconstruction and a reconstruction

Read some of Moore's reconstruction work on the superhero, like Tom Strong or Top Ten

>>84439094
Ew, Grandpa Sex.

>>84442018
Top Ten's ace, and I'm mystified that it isn't so well known. A lot of his work at ABC was, really.

>>84442585
It wasn't DC (Killing Joke, Watchmen) and they didn't make a movie out of it (LoEG, From Hell)

His whole 90s run was basically a reconstruction of everything he loved about comics and literature, though. Good stuff

>>84437897
This came with a Superman Returns DVD I got for Christmas.
I found it way more interesting than SR.

>>84437897
Capekino at its highest expression

>>84443240
kino means cinema though, you fucking idiot

>>84443486
kino means nothing now, it's just another buzzword like cuck

>>84438491
I thought the superhero mythos was built around the Jewish assimmilation of the early 20th century mixed with male adolescent power fantasy

>>84443486
>>84443551
Thats the joke. In /asp/ i have seen a reference of wrestlekino

>>84443551
I've actually been considering pulling a Li'l B and calling myself Cuck God.

>>84443704
Pure Cuckino.

>>84440659
He's a uniquely Silver Age character.

>>84437936
/thread
its only liked by people ashamed they enjoy a children's fantasy character like Superman

>BBBBUT alan moore wrote a few issues.

>superman gives up his powers because he killed someone

Alan PLS. Superman has killed before that event and IF anything he would give up being clark as punishment
not being superman.

that being said...the book had some great little scenes but at the end it didn't add up to much

>>84444579
Nothing you just posted is even a coherent train of thought.

>>84438994
:'(

>>84439105
Okay, I just burst out laughing at this page. These quick deaths remind me of Kung Pow.

>>84444610
>Alan PLS. Superman has killed before that event

Did he kill any time between the 50's up to Whatever Happened? Cause all the 1930's/early 1940's stuff where he killed or let someone died was retconned to be part of Earth-2 Superman's history instead.

>>84438348
>I think he's too fucking English to understand superheroes

I don't know, Grant Morrisson seems to understand superheroes pretty well and he's Scottish as fug.

>>84443806
>He's a uniquely Silver Age character.

Not really; he was created in the Bronze Age.

Vartox did make several appearances in the 80's and even though Moore would be more familiar with Silver Age stuff, he'd probably be aware of him through people working at DC.

>>84439148
One of those "I didn't like it until the last panel" stories for me. I felt the same about Animal Man.

>>84439148
So, are these the same versions of the characters in superman rebirth?

>>84446658
No; the Earth rebooted after Whatever Happened or Gerber's story and then replaced with the John Byrne revamp.

There's being humorless, and then there's extrapolating the most cliche idea that if Superman is alive Bizarro must be dead

Moore attacks the Superman mythos with all the subtelty and pathos of a brick. This subpar story is saved by Curt Swan drawing to give actual emotion to Moore's tom foolery.

>>84444796
Bazinga

>>84445532
Earth 2 superman's history was still largely the same as Earth 1 superman except for minor changes. There is no line where you could say "this is earth 1 and this is earth 2" except for like the same of th newspaper he worked for

Silver age superman killed monsters and sentient robots. He didn't consider them alive which is really stretching it. He said he would kill bizarro and brainiac because he didn't consider them alive. It's hard to say they are any less "alive" than Mr.Myx
He had supergirl kill a sentient plant when it took over Perry whites mind
He tricked a kryptonian into losing his powers and dying in space when he could have saved him when he went back in time.
Basically he wouldn't kill a human but there is literally no reason why he would ever have to.

It's not like he was a blood thirsty murder , but he killed when he had no other option (also didn't care if he didn't consider them "alive")

Reminds me of people complaining about superman killing Zod in the movie. Id prefer that they didn't write the movie that way but it's hardly out of character

Either way. Superman wouldn't consider giving up his powers as a form of punishment. Being superman was a mission for him. An ideal which he strived for (he say "this is no way for a Superman to act" when he was down in the dumps).

>>84439244
Art by Bernie Mireault. It is worth tracking down.

>>84447632
The major change was that Earth 2 Superman was never Superboy (even though Superboy was first published in the mid-1940's)

>>84438895
>>84438919
>>84438954
Wow this story is a lot edgier than I remember it being.

>>84437897
A shitty silver age snuff flick with bad writing

>>84439353
No it isn't. This was the "real" last Silver Age Superman story.

>>84442018
All his abc extreme etc style stuff felt like milding cover albums, liek a backlash against Watchmen was just to rewrite pulp and silver age stuff

>>84447632
Earth 1, Earth 2 , Earth 3, etc...

This is one of the main reasons I always preferred Marvel.

>>84448350
Where the Earths are even more jumbled strings of numbers?
Age of Apocalyse, Earth 295. Ultimate universe, Earth 1610. Marvel Zombies, Earth-2149, etc.

>>84448443
No, I preferred it when Marvel ignored their alternate universes and not have everyone interact in a giant clusterfuck like DC does.

>>84438491
>The individual wielding great strength for the benefit of the many.
>The judicious use of force in the service of the greater good.
>they live like common people (secret identities) and use that power only for the benefit of the people.

But anon, you are talking about socialism...

>>84439056
Where's Flash? Could he have phased through it? How about the Atom? Could he have gone in between the atoms to get through and help?

So are we gonna' get "For The Man Who Has Everything"?

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>>84449480
I'm back, America.

This is "For The Man Who Has Everything", or Superman Annual 11.

how does superman know what his birthday is, anyway?

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>>84449725
Isn't his "birthday" just the day he arrived on Earth?