What the fuck, Clint?

>>82958410
>Clint having beef with Tony
Well, they finally nailed his character

>>82958410
well, Rhodie's back getting broken was Tony's fault. And Visions. And Steve's...

>>82958410
He's in a maximum security prison separated from his wife and kids, with the knowledge his surrogate daughter/little sister is in equally terrible conditions. Plus Rhodey's injury is because Tony called the kill shot on the Quinjet instead of just hacking or tracking it though I guess like when Hulk disappeared it's hard to track but if anything Tony should have learned from that and made the others less troublesome to deal with if hijacked.

Tony lost his shit. I think Clint has the right to question his judgment.

>>82958475
But wasn't Clint the one who willingly choose to get out of retirement to join Cap knowing that he would be a wanted criminal and likely can't see his wife and kids again? What was he expecting after he helped Cap.

>>82958475
>He's in a maximum security prison separated from his wife and kids
He's the one who chose to abandon them.

>with the knowledge his surrogate daughter/little sister is in equally terrible conditions.
Because of him. He got her involved in the fight!

>Plus Rhodey's injury is because Tony called the kill shot on the Quinjet instead of just hacking or tracking it
It was none of those things.

It was Rhodey who made the call, not Tony.
Falcon was the target, not the Quinjet.
And it wasn't a killshot, but "He's got thrusters. Make him a glider.".

>>82958549
Clint accepting the consequences does not make them acceptable.

>>82958410
Thought that was the movie's version of not-Matt giving him a piece of silver.

>>82958410
>Not being pissed at the guy that messed with your daughteru

>>82958410
This feels like one of those situations where people are going to side with Clint just because he's "The snarky guy" and got the last word in. Regardless of whether he's even right or not.

>>82958564
>He got her involved in the fight!
Technically he got her OUT of Vision Prison.

Also Rhodey's fate is all the more deserving and ironic if that's the case.

>>82958568
Man that original
>"hurr have some more silver JUDAS"
scene was terrible and hamfisted, even for the civil war comic in general.

>>82958549
Clint accepted Cap's request for help against Zemo and the Winter Soldiers.

Tony and co. interfering with their mission was not on the cards for him.

>>82958572
Yeah, because his last encounter with Vision went so well.

>>82958632
>Not being willing to fight the impossible fight to free your daughteru
you are a terrible papa

>>82958410
Switch Clint with CIA and Tony with Bane.

This really drained all the sympathy I had for Clint. Way to ignore your own actions you jerk.

File: 1462646887293.jpg (390KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

390KB, 1920x1080px

>>82958658
Bane?

>>82958628
>to be fair we didn't expect to get caught

>>82958612
>Regardless of whether he's even right or not.
They're in a super max prison, man. Come on.

Are you telling me you'd just shrug if the guy who could and should have just played ball to spare everyone showed up to take a look at the animals in the zoo, then dipped? Not so much as a
>I'll see if I can get you guys out of here or better accomodations
He doesn't even try. He spends the rest of his day beating up Bucky and Steve.

>>82958475
>join ISIS
>get arrested
>WOOOW! I DID NOTHING YOU FASCISTS PIGS!

Maybe he should have thought it before joining a fugitive criminal.

>>82958613
>Technically he got her OUT of Vision Prison.
>Abloobloo I keep killing a bunch of people every time I go to Africa and now I have to stay in a mansion with my boyfriend
If she didn't have friends in high places she'd be in a much harsher prison than the Raft from the very beginning.

>>82958683
He didn't expect his friends to betray him.

>>82958703
She didn't commit a crime, if she hadn't acted alot more people would have died

>>82958694
>who could and should have just played ball
VERY debatable.

Tony spells out to everyone that he has 12 hours to bring in Bucky or Ross will ram them all in the ass, and he's not unreasonable for thinking Cap might be too trusting of his butt buddy.

>He doesn't even try. He spends the rest of his day beating up Bucky and Steve.
Other shit kind of came up.

>>82958612
that entire scene was the movie telling everyone that Tony was wrong

even though he obviously wasn't

>>82958764
You forgetting about South Africa?

>>82958669
Except they're being held in an underwater prison without due process or a trial. I'm not even a libtard but this is Guantanamo-level dickery.

Remember how the CIA officer dismissed Bucky getting a lawyer? No shit Steve was wary of having his best friend who was brainwashed and conditioned into an assassin being handled by the authorities.

Ross and his ilk are not interested in keeping the Avengers accountable so much as retain them as assets for US foreign policy and black ops. The MCU is subtly addressing Ultimate Marvel's theme about a metahuman arms race between the world powers. And Tony fell for it because he was guilt-tripped from that dead kid's mom.

I do feel that the way presented CW in the movie is FAR more reasonable than the comics. But there's still a sinister motive behind everything. Especially Ross of all people since he unleashed the Abomination.

It's interesting how nobody brought up that SHIELD was corrupted by HYDRA and that a Senator and even the Vice-President of the USA were complicit with nefarious groups yet Tony and Ross demand the Avengers to comply with UN oversight; including nations with questionable and even downright violations of human rights?

>>82958765
>Other shit kind of came up.

Boohoo he killed my mom while under mind control

>>82958810
It's still his fault. He ditched his family to go commit crimes because he was bored. He's a selfish asshole and his family is paying for it.

>>82958765
Fuck Ross and his 12 hours. Zemo was 12 more steps ahead of them every time Steve had to humor this bureaucratic bullshit.

File: 123456787654321.jpg (7KB, 229x220px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 229x220px

>>82958810
>Especially Ross of all people since he unleashed the Abomination.
>People are still repeating this falsehood in [current year]

>>82958810
>It's interesting how nobody brought up that SHIELD was corrupted by HYDRA and that a Senator and even the Vice-President of the USA were complicit with nefarious groups yet Tony and Ross demand the Avengers to comply with UN oversight; including nations with questionable and even downright violations of human rights?
It would be far easier and more likely for the Avengers themselves to have a sinister, unified agenda than the governments of 117 countries.

TWS' plot warns about the dangers of giving "heroes" the ability to bypass the law to "do what needs to be done".

>>82958836
>because he was bored
He wanted to protect and help Wanda/If Cap asks your help you dont say no.

>>82958847
Cap was wrong about Zemo using the Winter Soldiers, though. He fell for Zemo's trick to create a false sense of urgency. They could have gone in with Tony without losing anything.

>>82958810
>It's interesting how nobody brought up that SHIELD was corrupted by HYDRA and that a Senator and even the Vice-President of the USA were complicit with nefarious groups yet Tony and Ross demand the Avengers to comply with UN oversight; including nations with questionable and even downright violations of human rights?
Cap did, the whole thing about people having their own agendas
It's only one more point to the "Cap was right" debate

>>82958765
You know, as much as I see MCU Tony as a very flawed and complex human being; he really has NO leg to stand on.

- Profited off of the military-industrial complex for years
- Was completely blind to Obadiah Stane's shady dealings
- Unleashed Ultron on the world. He was messing with forces outside of his understanding (the mind gem/scepter) and Sokovia paid for it dearly

And Howard Stark was as much as an asshole by deporting Whiplash's dad to a Soviet labor camp.

Hank Pym was absolutely right; Never trust a Stark.

I'm also disappointed that the Avengers didn't assist in the rescue and clean-up after Sokovia. In fact, did they even help NYC after the battle?

>>82958912
they helped themselves to some schwarma

>>82958812
To be fair, Tony watched his mom get her neck broken by a guy next to him. That shit would piss anyone off.

I'm surprised nobody calls out on Wanda's brainwashing and how it caused Hulk to go apeshit.

>>82958857
He may not have intended for Abomination to be created, but Blonsky was a loose cannon that Ross ignored. Don't forget that Ross wants Banner so that he can create more Hulks for the military.

>>82958906
There was absolutely no way for Steve to know Zemo wouldn't use the Winter Soldiers before it was too late.

Tony saw first hand with the use of the Raft that Ross will play by his own rules (so Steve would have been locked up there too after violating the Accord while Zemo's allowed to do who knows what), there was still time, seeing how he interfered with their surveillance he could and should have devised a way to quietly break them all out and never allied with Ross again. Instead he just lets them rot.

Tony was wrong and absolutely the wrong side to pick.

>>82958908
And Rhodey hit back with the fact that shit isn't some shadowy organization - It's the UN. Steve is arguing with the governments of the entire world here.

Plus, when you have hundreds or thousands of people, it's a lot harder for any of them to abuse power toward any of their agendas. When someone can act unilaterally (like Steve wants to), there's nothing in place to prevent HIM from advancing whatever agenda he might have.

Steve is asking for everyone to treat him as the exception from everyone else on Earth, who shouldn't have to follow rules because he knows best.

File: Erskine.jpg (16KB, 400x300px) Image search: [Google]

16KB, 400x300px

>>82958946
>Don't forget that Ross wants Banner so that he can create more Hulks for the military.
Literally nothing villainous about wanting to create super soldiers.

>>82958998
>he could and should have devised a way to quietly break them all out
He may not have agreed with putting them on the Raft, but Tony still agreed that they shouldn't have become criminals, and that criminals should be arrested.

>>82958912

Not tcompany war at all genuine question but isn't showing heroes helping after a fight more a DC thing? Even the Bat is often shown cleaning up parts of his mess to some degree. And the League is often shown doing just general good will missions. I can't think of any Marvel heroes that do. At least not often.

>>82959003
>The United Nations Security Council "power of veto" refers to the veto power wielded solely by the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council (China, France, Russia, United Kingdom, and United States), enabling them to prevent the adoption of any "substantive" resolution, as well as decide which issues fall under "substantive" title.

Sounds pretty fucking easy for powerful countries to abuse power for their own agendas.

>>82959021
He at least had a better eye for psychopaths

>we need to be put in check
>BUT HOLD UP LET ME DO SEVERAL UNCHECKED THINGS FIRST

this bothered me more than that hydra agent death

>>82959003

The UN regulated SHIELD and look how that turned out.

>>82958784
>You forgetting about South Africa?
Then give her a tria and charge her for something. If you are going to just imprison her outright then you can forget about justice.

>>82959045
>and that criminals should be arrested.
In a legally devoid underwater super max prison?

>>82959062
Exactly. Fucking China and Russia are on the National Security Council despite their long history of human rights violations. How is this any different from the World Security Council that oversaw SHIELD?

>>82959062
For one, that can only prevent action. It doesn't allow unilateral action.

Secondly, that's still a lot of people with competing agendas.

>>82958912

>Names all the bad shit Tony has done as if that wasn't his main reason for supporting the legislation in the first place.

Tony was leading the charge on the accords because of the massive amount of blood on his hands. He's responsible for more death than anyone else. It's easy for someone like Cap to oppose being controlled because he hasn't done anything wrong, but Tony is responsible for exponentially more damage. It's just that the only other person on the team who REALLY knows what it's like to have that much damage to answer to is Bruce, and he's nowhere to be found.

>>82959083
No, the World Security Council did.

>>82959102
The WSC is a much smaller group of people who can do a lot more than just block action.

>>82958784

Where she also stopped a possibly global ending virus. And if she didn't lift the guy when she did more would have died.

I think Falcon opening fire in a populated area is worse.

>>82958549
The fact it was even a criminal act in the first place is because of Tony's piss poor judgement. They were locked up as if they were Loki tier threats to the world when all they were doing was trying to take down Zemo to clear an innocent(ish) mans name, and to stop what they suspected to be six crazed super soldiers being unleashed upon the world. The only people in danger were the ones that Tony himself brought to the fight, otherwise they would have just all flown out to a wasteland and neatly tied things up.

These people risk their lives for this world (Hell, WM practically ordered a kill shot on Falcon) and because Tony can't get over his own guilt of creating Ultron, they are being treated like monsters.

>>82958764
>She didn't commit a crime

Helping Ultron isn't a crime?

How the fuck can anyone support Tony when he took in a child soldier? Doesn't Peter have to sign the Accords since he's part of Tony's Avengers? He can't keep Spider-Man a secret from Ross since Vision, Rhodes, BW, and BP saw him.

What if Ross demands for Peter to be brought in for study so that they can replicate his spider-powers to create an even better version of the Super-Soldier process? Remember, that's why MCU Hulk was created because Ross was trying to emulate it. Spider-Man is a perfect median in-between peak human Cap and monster Hulk.

>>82958425
took them about 6 films...

File: THEY ALL LOOK THE SAME.jpg (212KB, 750x400px) Image search: [Google]

212KB, 750x400px

>>82959130
Nigeria and South Africa are two different countries, Vision.

>>82959142
>How the fuck can anyone support Tony when he took in a child soldier?

Because he was perfectly knowledgeable of his physical limits and even sent him home when it became too much?

>>82958475
>Tony called the kill shot on the Quinjet
Rhodey: "Vision, do you copy? Target his thrusters, make him a glider"

But, sure, it was TOTALLY Tony's fault.

Gods I hate you shits with zero retention.

>>82959139

Seeing as creating him isn't I don't see why it would be!

>>82959106
It literally gives Ross direct and unqualified veto powers over anything the Avengers try that he doesn't like.Also:

>What if we need to act, and they won't let us?

China and Russia wouldn't let the Avengers ever combat Chinese or Russians, which seem to be half the bad guys running around.

>>82958810
>Ross and his ilk are not interested in keeping the Avengers accountable so much as retain them as assets for US foreign policy and black ops.

Fucking this. I'm baffled how everyone actually believes the reason the Sokovia Accords were being imposed was to damage control the Avengers (and other meta). It was already pointed out that being registered or not wouldn't have changed a thing. It's obvious the UN used this reason as a pretext to have the Avengers as their own personal force. Like, it's hard for the Avengers to be opposed by that when you just came back from the disaster in Africa.

As they are, these guys are dangerous on their own and are vastly capable of wrecking a few small country on their own and going toe-to-toe with bigger armed force. Their decision is based on doing what's right but there is no guarantee for everyone else that they can trust them. Having supervision over them would avoid and prevent the Avengers to ever go rogue. More so, it gives access to a strong task force that is forced to do as you will. The UN could easily diverge the group outward Hydra to say, go after this random palestinian guy that poses a threat to Israel. Or something.

It's not a stretch to imagine that considering how Ross was adamant to have Abomination as part of the Avengers. Before the Sokovia accord, Abomination could have been used as an inside man to him.

That is what Steve is worried about. He don't want his group to be compromise on their actions, legitimately believing they are doing what's better. And basing on his last experiences with Hydra, Rodgers wants to avoid all risk of the UN (or any organization) to use the Avengers on evil uses.

>>82959142
Tony told Pete to stand back and web everybody up, and immediately sent him home as soon as he saw that he got hurt.

>>82959130
What the fuck do the Avengers do in their compound? Shouldn't they train to deal with situations like this so that Wanda can have a better handle of her powers?

>>82959109
I wonder how Ross was going to induct Banner and Thor into the Accords? Thor is an Asgardian and isn't bound by the laws of Earth. Good luck trying to enforce that.

>>82959003
>Steve is arguing with the governments of the entire world here.
CAPTAIN STEVEN GRANT "CAPTAIN AMERICA(N DREAM)" ROGERS saved all those governments from HYDRA a year ago from people they had brought in or allied with who were part of HYDRA.

Fuck them.
Fuck their judgment.
Fuck their politics.
Fuck their cities.
Fuck their citizens.

There is only one man on the entire planet who can be trusted with the lives of everyone on the entire planet and he's wearing the red, the white, the blue and the colors true.

>>82959168

he blackmailed the kid into a fight without telling him the details of why they were fighting.
and by joining, essentially undid the terms of the blackmail.

>>82959170
I'll write it down in my journal.

>>82959183
Red tape gets in the way, yeah, but it exists to prevent any one group from having too much power. That includes the Avengers, who we only know are totally trustworthy because we're the audience.

>>82959203

He also lied to him and manipulated him so he would fight Captain America.

Tony is a true asshole.

>>82959186
>It's not a stretch to imagine that considering how Ross was adamant to have Abomination as part of the Avengers. Before the Sokovia accord, Abomination could have been used as an inside man to him.
Thunderbolts is gonna be Zemo, Abomination, and other MCU villains working as a government-sanctioned squad.

>>82959170

wait they were trying to shoot the Quinjet? I thought Rhodey was telling him to shoot Sam down because Sam was slowing Tony down from catching up to the quinjet?

Damn. I thought it was like cruel irony that Rhodey got hit since what happened to him was essentially what he wanted Vision to do to Sam. Which really threw me off when Tony got all pissy and shot Sam afterwards.

I really misread that scene then...

>>82959231
>He also lied to him

Name one lie he told him.

>>82959003
You do realise that many acts of progress have been stopped by the UN simply by a single prominent superpower saying no, right? China is never going to allow countries to be independent without one hell of a fight because then discussion will turn to the likes of Tibet and Hong Kong.

What's to stop Russia saying no to the Avengers simply because a sizeable threat is at least leaving them alone?

>>82959168
That is such a load of horseshit. You can't bring 15-year-old kids into situations where they could die and then just act like everything is okay just because they didn't die. Tony lucked out that Pete got away with just a black eye.

>>82959186
>Having supervision over them would avoid and prevent the Avengers to ever go rogue.
Yes, this is the point. It's an important one. Someone needs to watch the watchmen.

>>82959252

He told him that Cap was a liar that could never be trusted.

>>82959280
>He told him that Cap was a liar that could never be trusted.

That's absolutely true, though.

He committed a pretty severe lie of omission.

>>82959197
>We protected you, so let us do whatever we need to
That's how HYDRA/SHIELD gained power begin with.

Yes, but its still morally right for Cap to do what he did, because HE KNOWS as himself that he is totally trustworthy.

Its not impossible for two sides to being the right thing from their own perspectives.

>The US withdrew from compulsory jurisdiction back in 1986 after the UN court ruled that America’s covert war against Nicaragua was in violation of international law.

Just another example of how shit and ineffective the UN is. The Avengers would never, ever get near cataclysmic events if they were under UN control. It would literally take moths to get permission to be sent anywhere, and the world would be literally destroyed by then.

File: cf835983db9d5840dd0a82d01e3ada6d[1].jpg (66KB, 600x849px)

66KB, 600x849px

>>82959269
this is only a problem when their leader doesn't have a strong enough moral sense and authority to keep everyone in check.

they go rogue because they have a weak leader.

>>82958895
Then that just makes Cap a bigger fucking asshole. If you know someone has a family and the consequences for them will be terrible, and you know that because of your reputation as Mr. Perfect, Embodiment of Justice, then you DON'T ASK THEM.

And all he did was fuck Wanda over. He didn't protect/help her. Where was she before he interfered? In house arrest, safe from the many, many people and governments who wanted to see her lynched, with freedom to do whatever she wanted other than leave the house and wreck the peace process by doing so. Where was she after he convinced her to break out of said house and go on yet another rampage? Shackled and chained with no one to help her in a tiny cell.

What a wonderful job of "protecting" her he did.

File: 1463422897483.gif (3MB, 640x266px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 640x266px

>>82959166

>>82959142
19 isn't a child soldier.

>>82959297

That Tony did not know about at the time. Tony only told Peter that for the sake of using him. Tony uses everyone for his own goals. It's part of his character.

>>82959252
We can't really because we didn't see what Tony told him, but from what Pete said about "Mr. Stark said your wrong and you think you're right" there are implications that Tony only told him the parts the made himself look good.

I mean, this is Tony Stark, I wouldn't expect a fair and balanced explanation either.

>>82959326
Go to bed Vision

>>82959334

He is 15 bro.

>>82959313

Well-said.

>>82959334
But 15 is you mongoloid.

>>82959340
>That Tony did not know about at the time.

Why does that matter if it's true?

>>82959334
No, but 15 is.

>>82959334
Fucking Christ Tony at least learn how old people are before you press them into service

>>82959373

Because in the context of him telling Peter this shit he had no idea it was true. He did it because he knew Peter would listen to Cap and switch sides.

So how do these accords effect literally everybody outside the Avengers? Are the Hells Kitchen quartet full on criminals now? When the Guardians swoop down should they be arrested even though only one is from Earth?

Can you still just operate as a hero in a country that didn't sign it?

I want to fuck Aunt May.

>>82958410
Dingdingdingdingdingdingding...

>>82959109
That sort of thing is on Bruce and Tony's head, they should sort it out in therapy or sign up for something only to see it predictably go wrong. Dragging close associates into it because their reckless actions costing others is the peak of irony.

Everyone. Literally everyone who has sided with Captain America since day one has been right or seen Justice in some form. How many for the Starks?
Everyone who has opposed Captain America has been knowingly wrong or found themselves part of doing wrong.

Look at the stats, they don't lie.

Tony cannot call for dick at a meeting where most of his associates have better judgment track records than him. If anything he should have folded and followed Steve to learn and see why he's right. Pepper's disappointed in him, his father's disappointed in him, his friends are disappointed in him. It's time to throw in the towel.

>>82959464
I wish they would've driven deeper into the accords in this movie. The only moment they were really discussed was just for a few minutes around a table in the beginning.

>>82958912
>I'm also disappointed that the Avengers didn't assist in the rescue and clean-up after Sokovia. In fact, did they even help NYC after the battle?
I'd assume they were pretty fucking tired.

>>82959493

>Cap has been right before so Cap is always right

I hope you're posting from a proxy, Steve.

>>82959579

Even Tony knows Cap is never wrong.

>>82959142
This argument is the best argument against Captain America's side and they're the ones who keep bringing it up, over and over. Tony brings in a superpowered, strong individual who can provide a completely non-lethal resolution to the conflict, and you all shout "HOW COULD HE BRING A CHILD INTO THIS?!"

Presumably he thought that Cap and his draftees wouldn't just try to fucking murder a child, so evidently Tony thinks better of "Team Cap" than its so-called supporters.

>>82959579

Your father knew I was and always will be right, Tony.

That's why he gave me the shield.

>>82959579
I might not know much about your fancy computer lingo but where I come from we know a little something about Truth, about Justice and what these United States like to call the Captain America Way.
The Right Way.

See if you can look that up on your google.

>>82959657
There's a reason we don't let people do shit until a certain age; because we want to make sure that they're mature enough to make a reasonable, informed decision.

Tony blackmailed an underage minor into a combat situation. Just because no one on Team Cap would intentionally kill a kid doesn't mean accidents don't happen. Accidents like, oh, the alien android you barely understand crippling your fucking best friend.

>>82959657
You seem to forget that Black Panther was trying to murder Bucky, Vision nearly killed Rhodes (by accident, but it still happened), Rhodes nearly killed Cap and Bucky by stopping Wanda from catching a falling building.

Cap's team was decidedly non-lethal with the possible exception of Bucky who's reeling from literal mind control. For a team that supports government oversight and control, Tony's side was extremely dangerous and violent.

>>82959362
Okay. If you successfully refute a single thing I said, I will go to bed.

>>82959193
The first scene shows Steve testing Wanda's recon skills, so it's implied they have been training but there's no training that can replace or prepare you for field experience. You just have to adapt and learn.

With all the other potential victims around Wanda's improvisation was excellent given the situation, she was just overwhelmed by having to do it so suddenly.

>>82958475
>his surrogate daughter/little sister
Fuck off with this stupid meme

>>82959326
>If you know someone has a family and the consequences for them will be terrible, and you know that because of your reputation as Mr. Perfect, Embodiment of Justice, then you DON'T ASK THEM
Bullshit. The consequences were of a legal question, not of morality. Just because the government sets the rules doesn't always mean they're morally right. Not to mention Steve asked for Clint's help in dealing with the other Winter Soldiers. He wasn't just looking for fresh meat for the grinder like Tony was.

Clint killed a bunch of people while under the control of the Mind stone/Loki's Scepter, but nobody gave him shit afterwards

Bucky killed Tony's parents while under mind control and it's still okay for him to try and kill him?

Was it supposed to be the daredevil moment? Cause it wasn't as good

I loved Clint's rant in the Raft. It was great.

>>82959965

The Futurist, gentlemen! The futurist is here! He sees all! He knows what's best for you... whether you like it or not.

>>82958444
How was it Tony's or Steve's fault?
Rhodes himself ordered Vision to fire.
Rhodes willingly chased after Steve.

>>82959373
By that logic Steve was right to keep his suspicions to himself since Tony did fly off the handle once he knew.

>>82959932
Eh. He calls it that in one of the interviews IIRC.

>>82959951
Who did Clint kill under Loki's control?
Besides, if you saw your parents get murdered on camera, would you really just let that slide and not feel like you want to beat the shit out of him or get revenge and kill him?

I want to believe they didn't bring Daredevil into this because he would have given the contract a look over (the jokes too obvious to make) and immediately tore it to pieces

>>82960024
I would say Vision fully accepts the blame for this one. He admits he was "distracted".

>>82959932
You hating doesn't make it untrue faggot. The actors themselves confirmed in multiple interviews that's what they were going for

>>82960055
>Who did Clint kill under Loki's control?
Countless SHIELD agents.

>>82960055
A bunch of nameless characters?

What does it matter anyway, even Captain America kills people in these movies

>>82959955
It was much better than that cringey Judas cliche. Better delivered too. Piss of Snyder

>>82960096
>even Captain America kills people in these movies
Of course he does, he loves fighting and war, that's his biggest fear, for war to be over, he's like Solid Snake.

>>82959139
>helped steal Vibranium from a thief
That's the extent of Scarlet Witch's involvement in Ultron's scheme.
It's not her fault Banner is a paranoid rage monster.
Remember, Wanda only instills the targets greatest fear into them, she doesn't control them.

>>82960055
>Besides, if you saw your parents get murdered on camera, would you really just let that slide and not feel like you want to beat the shit out of him or get revenge and kill him?

I really thought that was supposed to represent Steve's suggestion of "what if they make us go somewhere to do something we don't want to", proof that people in charge can make bad decisions.

And yet it never got that attention.

>>82959932
>meme
Clint is an older male constantly giving her counsel and guidance. He clearly sees her as a little sister, daughter type. He called her a kid in aou. He sees her as one. It's not really a meme at all.

>>82959951
Clint's offenses can probably be waved by SHIELD especially since the harm done was mostly to SHIELD.
Bucky has years of things that can't be so easily swept under the rug.

>>82960149
She knew what she was doing with the Hulk.

>>82959318
You can't operate on the assumption that any individual is 100% infallible and trustworthy. That's just a recipe for disaster.

>>82959951
Bucky killed Tony's parents
And two presidents
and 5 major Shield operatives
and 16 key officials in world peace
and another 100+ that we don't even get details on.

Tony's revenge was wrong but Steve was fucking stupid for saving Bucky the way he did.

>>82958628
>Clint accepted Cap's request for help against Zemo and the Winter Soldiers.
And the very first thing he did was attack Vision.
He was fully aware he was going against the accords, the government and Tony's team.

>>82960142
Wow, you could not be more wrong. Cap doesn't love war or fighting, he just hates bullies. He constantly engages in the fights because he feels it's his duty to. He's strong and skilled and worth a whole battalion of soldiers. When other people are giving it their all, he questions why he should give anything less. If the world's in peril and Captain America has something to offer, he'll be there.

>>82960238
I'm at a loss as to how "mind control" doesn't excuse him of that, because it is public knowledge Bucky was not in control of himself during all that.

>>82959464
Same as before - They're vigilantes.

>>82958810
>Except they're being held in an underwater prison without due process or a trial. I'm not even a libtard but this is Guantanamo-level dickery.

>Remember how the CIA officer dismissed Bucky getting a lawyer? No shit Steve was wary of having his best friend who was brainwashed and conditioned into an assassin being handled by the authorities.
Zemo's going through the same ordeal.

Steve better break him out the next time we see him, otherwise he's the biggest hypocrit alive.

>>82960243
Yes, but they the goverment and Tony's team were flat out not listening to reason and truth when it came to the other Winter Soldiers. Clint, as a hero, felt it was his responsibility to save the day? What if he declined and one of those soldiers killed someone he knew? He would have to deal with him and maybe his kids knowing that he had the opportunity to stop it.

>>82960149
Oh, fuck off. She was at least as responsible for the creation of Ultron as Tony and Banner, then proceeded to join up with him even though she couldn't read his mind, got her feelings hurt and deliberately released the Hulk into a center of civilians because she cared more about damaging the Avengers than she did about human life, continued to work with Ultron, and only changed her mind once she got a glimpse of Ultron's plans and saw that he wanted to murder all of the people, instead of just SOME of the people the way she did.

In Civil War, she did nothing wrong (other than eventually listening to Clint, and even then the consequences were to herself); she was trying to redeem herself in the beginning and got thrust into a shitty situation with no good outcome. She made the best call she could. But prior to CW she was a straight-up villain that even her brother was trying (and failing) to keep in check.

>>82958998
Yeah, Tony should have totally burned all the bridges to the UN so that the Accords will never ever in a million years be amended to not be as shit.
Tony's playing the long game.
He's playing ball to garner good faith in the Avengers (something Steve totally fucked in Civil War) so that they get more leeway in the future.

>>82959951
Because Bucky is STILL brainwashed.

>>82959021
>yfw the Tony/Peter scene in Civil War was a parallel to the Steve/Erskine scene before the procedure in The First Avenger
Pure Kino

>>82960298
>otherwise he's the biggest hypocrit alive.
Zemo actually committed murders and bombed the UN. All while not under mind control. While I'm sure the lack of due process (we're assuming that's what's happening) bothers Steve, I don't think he'll lose too much sleep over it.

>>82960149
It's made very clear she knew what she was doing with the Hulk.

Quickass wanted to leave, but she's like "No, I want the big one" and then she sees Bruce and gets way more giddy than when she saw any of the others.

>>82959756
>The Anerican way is acting unilaterally and ignoring the will of the people
Okay self-appointed King Steve.

>>82960463

But that is the American way...

>>82960276
It's not about being at fault. Bucky still has HYDRA programming in him, is armed, extremely powerful & dangerous, on the run, and is strongly believed to be in murder mode right now.

Old Yeller dodn't choose to get rabies but he still has it.

>>82958628
The last time people got apprehended for breaking the Accords they were brought to the UN and put in an office space

I dont think anyone expected the raft

>>82960345
>Tony's playing the long game.
While his friends are indefinite sentence without parole game
>He's playing ball to garner good faith in the Avengers
What faith? They already had a super max prison waiting for them, even after Zemo was arrested and the HYDRA facility proven true and Ross got word of all of this, confirming Steve's group were only acting in the best interests of everyone again, he did not let up on any of the prisoners. The fact their conditions were maintained is a demonstration of where Ross and the UN lie in terms of faith and playing ball.

They want the supers who will throw their weight around in their pocket, and those who don't whether or not they're trying to save lives locked up.

>no one realizing Vision let Stark go on purpose when he shot War Machine

The guy was able to pinpoint the last Ultron kilometers away. He doesn't make mistakes like that. He wanted Captain America to get away without directly going against Tony Stark.

>>82960425
Wanda actually committed murders, too. But she's Steve's friend so it's different.

>>82960276
Bucky right now is literally a tool, a weapon to be used by literally ANYONE who knows the magic words.
Bottom line is Bucky is extremely dangerous to everyone around him until he gets his brain unscrambled by Doctor Strange

>>82958626

I really feel like Millar probably just wrote the first part of that exchange, then some editor came in and said "Nah, people won't get that, make sure you namecheck Judas"

Also, it is hilarious in retrospect that Daredevil was actually Iron Fist throughout that whole event. I somehow doubt that Millar even knew that. Again, the one reference to DD being in prison feels like something inserted by an editor.

>reality bending witch that attacked us, helped a genocidal robot and set a rampaging Hulk loose upon a city
>let's have her join our team!
>no trial, no charges, no supervision, nothing
>SHE'S AN AVENGER!

>in this very movie
>Zemo imprisoned without trial nor rights
>SERVES HIM RIGHT

>in this very movie
>Bucky, who is a superpowered assassin that keeps getting brainwashed to kill people, is again brainwashed to kill people
>in his right mind, when you find him and after he promises not to kill anyone, actively tries to kill people
>NO, DON'T HURT MY FRIEND

>yet routinely kill people you fight with
>we are not responsible for the collateral damage of our fights!

>ONLY I, CAPTAIN AMERICA, SHOULD MAKE THESE KINDS OF DESCISIONS, I'LL FIGHT ANYONE WHO DEMANDS OVERSIGHT EVEN MY FRIENDS, ONLY I DECIDE WHAT THE SUPERPOWERED PEOPLE DO AND WHO ARE BAAAAD
>the government can get corrupted, or change agendas, but that's impossible for superpowered people like us! Like Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver!
>Captain hypocrit

>>82960276
Violent schizophrenics, murderers with DID or particularly dangerous developmentally disabled individuals are all kept institutionalized. They aren't in control of themselves, but they're too dangerous to sit around in an apartment eating plums. Whether or not he was brainwashed during those crimes, Bucky is far, far more dangerous than any of those individuals and needs to be treated proportionately. It sucks for him, yeah, but there is no good solution.

(Still not sure why he didn't just deafen himself so he couldn't be re-triggered, but I'm assuming that's not an option for whatever reason.)

>>82960585
>shoot someone with a gun
>arrest the gun

PEOPLE DONT KILL PEOPLE
GUNS KILL PEOPLE

>>82960555
>While his friends are indefinite sentence without parole game
A game they willingly joined in.
They knew FULL WELL that they would become wanted criminals if they helped Cap.
Yes, the Raft is fucked up.
>things right now are shit
>this means they always will be
That's why Tony is playing ball, for the future.
The future where he replaces Thunderbolt Ross as Secretary of State in Iron Man 4

>>82960425
>Zemo actually committed murders and bombed the UN. All while not under mind control
Wanda did that too, but she gets to be part of his kick ass team.
Bucky actively tried to kill people in this movie, in front of Steve's eyes, while not under mind control.

Steve should free him if he actually believes in his ideals, and isn't just playing favorites with his friends.

>>82960654
>Steve should free him if he actually believes in his ideals, and isn't just playing favorites with his friends.

Please, the entire film was people playing favorites.

>>82960463
That's God Emperor America to you, peasant.

>>82958410
If Clint were against Cap, would he have said:
>Do you remember Peggy's last words? She sure didn't!

>>82960849
Too soon, anon.

>>82960609
Swallow an iron load.
The alternative to keeping an eye on Wanda is locking her up and waiting for her to break out and cause more problems out of spite. Bucky is a similar situation except even if he didn't want to escape someone would come to re-activate his Winter Soldier program eventually.

Zemo didn't want to join the Avengers or any form of redemption so the only option is to keep him detained.

>>82960949
>characters I like deserve more rights!

haha alright

>>82959386
I didn't carbon-date him, okay?

>>82959193
Banner would never side with Ross, even if Tony is his buddy, banner (and hulk) would side with cap or try to remain neutral.

Thor would just laugh in Ross his face.

File: wheel chair bomb.png (175KB, 480x368px) Image search: [Google]

175KB, 480x368px

>>82960849
Jesus, dial it back Clint

>>82960949
>these characters are so powerful, if we imprison them they might kill even more people!
>better make those people our friends then!
>except this one guy, because he won't want to be our friend. he can rot forever without trial and all the other things you fought for.

you sure are one smart fella

>>82960849
lel

>>82960609
this

lost all my respect for Cap in this movie

>>82961047
the more times you save the world the more privileges you get

zemo has saved the world zero times so barely counts as human

>>82959298
>That's how HYDRA/SHIELD gained power begin with.
HYDRA DID NOTHING WRONG

>>82961240
Wanda both helped to end the world, and to save it.
She's on Zemo's level, by your stupid logic.

>>82961238
I'd say your parents lost respect for you, but they'd need something to be proud of in the first place you commie piece of shit.

>>82958549

Know what can happen doesn't deny you the right to be mad when it does. It still sucks, even if you were prepared for it.

>>82961470
it's just a fictional character anon, don't get mad

>>82959932

It was stated by the actors themselves, fuck off.

>>82960587
im sure you're right

>Daredevil is catholic, wait i got ill have him make a judas reference LOL

>>82959186
I really wish the movie had gone into this argument, even just mentioned it. I know they kind of did, with Cap's line about "people having their own agendas" but still

>>82959777
Cap and Bucky were nowhere near the falling control tower when Rhodey interfered with Wanda. They would have been cut off, but safe.

>>82961240
>>82961047 #
>the more times you save the world the more privileges you get
Literally how HYDRA almost took over the world as SHIELD.

>>82958652
>>82958572
>*daughterfu

>I'm sorry about Rhodey. He seemed like a really upstanding guy.

>>82959326
>In house arrest, safe from the many, many people and governments who wanted to see her lynched
>safe
Nigga she's pretty much safe everywhere, it's not like she could just go berserk and kill an entire army.

>>82959326
> safe from the many, many people and governments who wanted to see her lynched, with freedom to do whatever she wanted other than leave the house and wreck the peace process by doing so
And why not just tell her that?

>>82964541
Vision said it in the nicest way possible.

>I want the rest of the world to see you as I do.

>>82964572
No, the nicest way would have been
>Wanda, we know you meant good, but you fucked it up in South Africa, so we need you to stay in here until we can make the politicians shut up

Of course people go nuts when you are basically holding them hostage.

>>82958564
>Because of him. He got her involved in the fight!
He just freed Wanda to let her make her own choices. Wanda fought of her own volition.

>>82958612
>This feels like one of those situations where people are going to side with Clint just because he's "The snarky guy" and got the last word in. Regardless of whether he's even right or not.
People tends to do the same for Tony all the time so it's fair Stank is on the receiving end for a change.

>>82964462
>he seems like a stand up guy.
ftfy
or
>Rhodey's got that BBC. I bet he could paralyze you if you get hit by it.

>>82958810
Ross was the biggest goddamn plot tumor in the whole movie for me. He's made a career instigating the fucking Hulk!

He straight up calls Banner a megaton nuke, but somehow ignored the fact that he's the one slamming the "fire" button

>>82960074
I'd say it's Tony and Rhode's fault for treating him like a machine instead of a person

Can someone from Team Tony put forth a justifiable reason as for why Tony is allowed to fucking murder Bucky?
>He killed his mom!!!!!
Mind control
>How would you feel you just saw...
Not a good enough excuse for him to throw a homicidal temper tantrum. If he can't react to high stress situations like an adult he has no business wearing that suit in the first place.

>>82958410
Tell that to Rhodey's broken back

>>82965606
He's a threat. Also did nobody catch that his parents' death was a fucking traumatic memory for him? Not just a painful memory but an actual trauma.

>>82960238
>Tony's revenge was wrong but Steve was fucking stupid for saving Bucky the way he did.
Bucky was innocent and should be saved when possible. And even if he was guilty, he needs a lawyer. If you don't think due process is needed then you might as well reactivate Project Insight. Because that's what Hydra wants.

>>82958410

>All these Tonyfags

Clint is right. Tony was a fucking moron for even believing that the Accords were a good idea.

>>82966457
Yet he didn't end up behind bars and labeled as a criminal.

>>82966650

No, instead he became the fascist that works for a bunch of corrupted genocidal fuck faces that tried to nuke New York.

Fuck Tony Star. What a fucking moron.

File: Captain-America-Civil-War-Spider-Man-Shield-Official.jpg (181KB, 2158x1136px)

181KB, 2158x1136px

Why don't you guys discuss the real Clint

and come watch Civil War with us

swimelodeon.com

>>82966720
>implying he's actually going to listen to them

>>82958475
Rhodey called the shot on Falcon like a retard, instead of moving out of the way for Vision to kill the quinjet.
I have no idea why Tony didn't just destroy the quinjet before the airport brawl, or fly it away and taunt Cap from the air.

>>82958702
Because when you go to prison, you automatically lose your convictions and accept that you have done wrong by the standards of those who imprisoned you, right?

>>82966760
Nice quality.

Thanks man.

>>82959129
>The WSC is a much smaller group of people who can do a lot more than just block action.


Right. They can also nuke North America's Second Largest City at will.

>>82959153
4 to be exact

>>82966387
Bucky wasn't threatening anyone in that moment, Tony was the one who spazzed out. Tony thinks the avengers can't just do what they want except for just him when he gets too emotional? If it turned out mind control rhodey killed cap's parents do you think cap would have pulled that?
The only one who needs to be monitored is Tony "you mean they used my wmd's to KILL people?!?" unstable genius retard Stark.

>>82964927
>This criminal is dangerous so let's just be as nice to him as possible instead of arresting him for the multiple innocent people he's killed

>>82965606
I'm Team Tony and I'm 100% willing to admit that his attempted revenge was wrong.

>>82958613
> Wanda had an amazing choice between prison and prison. Tony and Vision concealed the truth from her which is morally indefensible.

> Wanda: "What if they come for me?"
> Vision: "We will protect you."
> nolongerworthy.jpg

> Wanda saved Cap's life, Bucky's life, saved Clint (twice), saved Cap and Bucky.

> Vision is the one who can't control his powers and is dangerous. He only saved Black Panther and on several occasions almost killed his team-mates.

>>82966720
>Calling Tony a fascist
He's not the one who wants to have unquestioned authority, above all other laws.

>>82958652
Clint fights Vision and Black Panther. The man has titanium balls.

File: image.jpg (83KB, 500x308px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 500x308px

>>82966457
Yeah, let's just bend over and hope that these unelected superhumans will always know what's best for us.

>>82958764
She saves more people in CW than any other Avenger.

>>82967530
This isnt the inferior DC Universe anon

>>82967454
> Vision: "We will protect you."
>Few days later "Lol, JK, enjoy underwater jail Wanda bye"

>>82966760
THANK YOU

>>82967464
>>82967530
"We're alreaqdy not taking responsibity for our actions, this just shifts the blame".
Cap didn't want unregulated authority, he wanted their authority to be regulated internally.

>>82967667
Internal regulation is missing the entire purpose of regulation. The Accords were created because the public no longer trusts the Avengers. Saying "No, we got this" doesn't help at all.

>>82967593
>Timmverse
>inferior to any other adaptation
Nah

File: 14874684684132.png (34KB, 645x773px)

34KB, 645x773px

>>82967602
>he'll probably spend the coming weeks trying to bypass the captcha to make ''tfw no qt slav goth gf'' threads in /r9k/

>>82966769
This part's extra hilarious when it's explicitly shown twice that he's NOT going to listen to them, at which point Capfags either make excuses, or doubledown and say "SEE? He's not even going to listen to the Accords! What a hypocrite!"

How many lives throughout history were saved by the underground railroad, or SS members freeing prisoners from concentration camps under the noses of their supervisors? Sometimes the best way to beat the system is from within.
>>82966387
You cannot argue with these people, because they're all either autists who don't understand human emotion, or they've never lost a loved one in their life and feel perfectly fit to judge those who have. "Well, what I, The Perfect One, would have done...."
>>82964927
I feel like Ross was literally only there to give Cap's side some justification. Most of the arguments for it I've seen have included "but it's so corrupt they put Ross in charge!" It feels cheap. I'd have loved to see the conflict stand without that contrivance.
>>82964508
And what happens if she's attacked? Forcibly arrested by another government? You think there's a Sokovian embassy nearby to bail her out? Either she's forced to use her powers on and hurt innocent civilians in self-defence - something SHE doesn't want any more than she wants them to hurt her, or she has to go along with them and wind up in a straitjacket in a cell with no rights. It's a lose-lose situation for someone who's trying to reform.
>>82964541
>>82964572
>>82964636
Somebody probably should have told her before she tried to walk out the door. That makes it way more intimidating. But Vision did the best he could, and she accepted it because even though it was miserable she understood.

That is not what fucking "hostage" means, though, you mongoloid.

>>82968253
>How many lives throughout history were saved by the...SS members freeing prisoners from concentration camps under the noses of their supervisors? Sometimes the best way to beat the system is from within.
Oh my god, can you hear yourself?
Let's go back in time and make banners.
>Don't oppose! Join the SS to save people!
THAT'S the extra hilarious part here.

>>82968253
>And what happens if she's attacked?
Why would they?
The UN is just using Sokovia and Nigeria as an excuse to take control of the most powerful weapons on the planet.
Attack her and you are just giving her a good reason to stand against you.

File: Cap & Hawkeye 2.jpg (211KB, 573x574px) Image search: [Google]

211KB, 573x574px

>>82958410

Clint & Steve are bros for life

>>82960094
What if they were Hydra/Shield agents?

>>82965172
transhuman is a mental illness, anon
vision is a goddamn machine and he's not allowed in my people bathrooms

>>82962248
Yeah they were
They barely made it through when it crashed

HAHA get fucked Rhodey!

>>82958857
He gave an unstable merc a flawed super solider serum sample, best case scenario he'd have just been another Crossbones tier guy running around causing havoc. That's one's on Ross, not the turning him into a Hulk tier villain.

>>82959062
>Whole qorld agrees blocade to Cuba should be lifted.
>US of A just says fuck no and no one can do shit.

The ONU is shit when it's about forcing world superpowers into obeying their decrees.

>>82960439
>No, I want the big one

SLUT.gif

Thor, Hulk, Scarlet Witch, Strange, will have to fight Thanos away from Earth and the other Avengers on Earth will have to fight without their help due to the Accords.

File: 8f4.png (270KB, 366x472px)

270KB, 366x472px

>>82958410
Fuck you Tony and fuck yo Hillary Rodham mom.

>>82958549
The location of Clint's family was not amongst the S.H.I.E.L.D files according to the dialogue in AoU.
Fury knew about it, but that's it. His family is probably perfectly safe and he probably expected to come back home after helping Cap. He didn't abandon his kids, he only said he was disappointing them because they were supposed to go water skiing.

>>82958703
>Abloobloo I keep killing a bunch of people every time I go to Africa
Not her fault. The people who died in Sokovia were killed because Tony's murderbot had a tantrum. Even if she didn't reduce the number of people who would have died from Rumlow's suicide vest, all she did was change which people blew up with him. If she'd done nothing, bystanders on the ground still would have died instead of bystanders in the building.

You could argue the casualties in Johannesburg were her fault for making Hulk go nuts, but for some reason no one mentioned that in Civil War (not even Ross).

And let's not forget the world-ending impact that would have happened in Sokovia or the bilogical weapon stolen from the Center For Infectious Diseases in Lagos if the Avengers hadn't been there. Just for her actions in defense of Sokovia, the number of people she's saved outnumbers the number of people you could possibly blame her for by around seven billion.

>>82967464
>He's not the one who wants to have unquestioned authority, above all other laws.
Funny that, if you want to sue Captain America he would probably it you. But if he signed the Accords then you would have to sue the UN, who would completely ignore your request. If you want responsibility, UN isn't it. UN is where responsibility go to die.

>>82960024
Rhodes ordered the shot on Falcon, who has far less protection than War Machine. Falcon's wings are attached to the jet pack... jet pack blows, wings go bye bye.

Vision's distracted and misses, knocking out War Machine's suit... which could have just as easily insta-killed Falcon.

Despite this general fuckery and douche-baggery, Falcon still tries to save War Machine. Tony blasts him in the face point blank with repulsors for his trouble. Considering how powerful those repulsor blasts are, he could have easily killed Falcon, even if they were on some kind of "stun" setting.

>>82958784

Yes, she saved hundreds at the expense of 12 people on a building.

And that was an accident.

>>82967464
uh...go back and watch the first two Iron Man movies.
Tony STARTED this whole "unquestioned authority above all other laws" shit. And when he gets Ross's permission to bring Cap in? When he's authorized by the UN Panel-appointed liason? What's the first thing he does?
Before he even announces his presence, he fries some poor schmuck's helicopter. Then he blows up a bunch of dinky prop-driven planes just because...i don't even know...maybe he thought he could scare a World War II veteran super-soldier by blowing up things thirty feet away?
But hey, at least he had the good sense to have Friday disable the Quinjet.
Oh, wait...no he didn't. He had Murderbot Jr, which everyone was against his creating to begin with, try and heat-vision a guy who had no weapons that could even dent two Iron Man armors. And since Murderbot Jr is about as reliable as Tony, Rhodey got paralyzed from the waist down.

But the best part is this:
After he finds out he was wrong the entire time and tries to shift gears, General Ross gets uppity with Tony *one time* and suddenly Tony is back to "FUCK DA RULES, I DO WHAT I WANT" to go help Cap and then switch sides *again* to become Judge, Jury, and Executioner when he finds out that one of Bucky's hundreds of against-his-will missions was the father that Tony callously insulted at every opportunity.

FUCK Tony Stank.
Fuck him with a Thomas The Tank Engine toy full of blue Pym Particles.

>>82960238

You're right! Let's all sign up with the Accords so WE can be given "kill on sight" orders.

>>82958857

He is directly responsible for that rampage.

Blonsky was showing all the signs of being unstable and he kept getting serum doses and going off the handle and Ross turned a blind eye because all he cares about is Hulk.

>>82971862
He means Johannesburg, South Africa. The Hulk Vs Veronica fight.

>>82958906

NOBODY expected that.

Zemo has the handbook on controlling the Winter Soldier, unleashed him at Berlin CTU, and wanted info on the location of five more of those dudes.

The fears of Team Cap were very real at the moment, and they were the ONLY ONES that had a clue and wanted to act.

>>82960609
When Cap throws his mighty shield, all who oppose his shield must yield.

>>82958912

>I'm also disappointed that the Avengers didn't assist in the rescue and clean-up after Sokovia. In fact, did they even help NYC after the battle?

No to NYC, but yes to their actions since then.

There's dialog in AOU that adresses the Avengers sending in teams to help in the aftermath of their actions.

In this very movie Cap straight up calls people to deal with the aftermath of Crossbone's suicide and goes personally to inspect the building.

This, however, will never appeace the people that already lost someone.

>>82971862
You people are embarrassing. South Africa was Age of Ultron, where she deliberately caused as many civilian casualties as possible.
>>82971385
Gets a lot of things wrong, but he's got a very good point in that her war crimes and murders committed in AoU are glossed over or mostly ignored in CW. Her character is apologetic and more sympathetic as well, it's almost like the writers were trying to retcon her. Which I'm kind of fine with, except for the fact that everything else from AoU is still being treated canonically. It's not really fair to erase the sins of one character and then base entire arguments around the sins of others.
>>82968365
....I'm not sure it's possible to miss the point more spectacularly but, okay.

>>82959021

Erskine was specifically looking for a psycologically sound individual without violent tendencies.

Ross gave the serum to fucking a fucking blood knight like Blonsky.

>>82959083

No, the WSC did, which was a joint effort from US, France, UK and Germany, I think.

It was still a shitty system, and the UN wouldn't be any better, though.

>>82959297
>He committed a pretty severe lie of omission.
While true, he was only preventing Stark from further pain. "Could never be trusted". We're talking about the guy who punched Hitler here!

>>82959106

>For one, that can only prevent action

Which is exactly what Cap feared. That they wouldn't be allowed to act when they really should.

Like it happened with Ross preventing/ignoring the potential threat Zemo represented.

Yes, Zemo didn't want to activate the Soldiers.

NOBODY KNOWS THAT.

That was a very real potential threat that they decided to sit on because all they cared about was controlling the Avengers to do whatever the fuck they wanted.

>>82958626
It makes sense if you remember it just someone who's mimicking Matt and probably just learned about Catholicism a week or two ago.

>>82966760
Stop samefagging your website, shill.

>>82959249
He was telling him to shoot Falcon's thrusters in his pack to stop him from following them. With his wing's engine shot out, Falcon would have to either glide back to the ground or plummet.

>>82959193

They do train. The accident at the start of the movie was the best case scenario anyone could hope for, considering the alternative was the death of Cap and like hundreds in the ground around Rumlow.

>>82972231
>Gets a lot of things wrong
I think you meant to type
>Makes a lot of points I disagree with
Because all of that is fact. 100% of the damage to Sokovia was caused by Ultron levitating a city for the express purpose of ending all human life on earth. The Avengers minimized the damage by blowing up the city *after* seeing to it that every last man, woman, and child was evacuated off of it. The people on the ground who died as a result of the debris would have died as a result of a global extinction level event that was directly, deliberately, caused by Ultron.

Wanda didn't act against Rumlow until after he triggered his bomb vest. If she'd done nothing, people on the ground would have died. She tried to send him away from where people were, but the blast from the vest sent him through a building. He did that, not her. And again, if the Avengers hadn't shown up at all, Rumlow (or whatever Hydra remnant he's working for) would have been in possession of a biological weapon.

In both cases, the consequences of inaction would have dwarfed the consequences of action. Or do you really think the locally authorized law enforcement, those two cops leaning on that squad car, were remotely capable of stopping Crossbones?

>>82972514
Oh fuck off. We watched Civil War and now we're getting comfy with the Incredibles

>>82972642
>They do train
That's even explicitly stated when Cap goes to enter the Center For Infectious Diseases.
"Wanda, just like we practiced."

>>82959777
Ant-man literally gives cap a fuel truck to throw at Tony's team (which included the unarmored Black Widow) and sets an explosive on it.

"Oops, thought it was a water truck at an airport where fuel is needed. My bad." is the excuse and Cap is fine with it? He'd be okay burning Black Widow to death? But hey, he was fine with everyone else dying except if it was Bucky, since that's the only thing Cap seems to care about.

>>82972799
>an explosive
growing disk. He made a mistake, there are water trucks

>>82959021
Nothing is wrong with wanting more super soldiers. There is something wrong with wanting more uncontrollable monsters that cause crazy amounts of collateral damage and kill anything in their way. He even growls into Bruce's ear about how he'll lock Bruce up for the rest of Bruce's life if he managed to get rid of the Hulk.

File: 1463780939248.jpg (107KB, 1352x986px) Image search: [Google]

107KB, 1352x986px

>>82958943

>>82972799
Cap's facial expression indicates that he was not fine with it.
But, for the record, it was not thrown at Tony's team. It was thrown at War Machine specifically, and it only pissed him off anyway. You may as well call someone irresponsible for shooting a pistol at Superman.

>>82959003
>UN
>not shady as fuck, especially with regards to their penis envy of America

>>82972565
Just plummet. The wings are attached to the engine... that thing that would explode from one of Vision's gem blasts. It sure as shit cut right through the War Machine suit like a hot knife through butter.

Even if a million people died in Sokovia, that would still mean that the Avengers attempt to save everyone in the world was 99.99986% successful.

Just saiyan.

>>82958677
What game is this?

>>82971385
>Not her fault. The people who died in Sokovia were killed because Tony's murderbot had a tantrum.
She's as responsible for Ultron as Tony is. Not only did she intentionally fuck with Tony so that he'd di simething paranoid & destructive, but she also helped Ultron for most of his plan. She also willingly served HYDRA and did the whole Hulk thing.

>>82960238

He was mind controlled into commiting those crimes, and has layed low and out of conflict ever since he was free of it.

The bombing of the UN meeting isn't even the WS' MO, so Cap had all the reason to suspect foul play.

>>82971917
What Tony did in the past doesn't affect the validity of his views now. He's changed.

He also didn't order the strike on Falcon.

>>82973098
X-Com 2

>>82972438
Imagine how much more good could get done if, instead of having to get approval from everyone, Cap could just dictate what has to be done and do it unobstructed. Like some kind of dictate-er.

>>82973114
She was willing to oppose an american imperialist weapons manufacturer who was grandstanding and posturing as a hero.

She was not willing to assist in genocide. Lots of people have personal vendettas. Some, like Tony Stark, even resort to attempted murder over theirs. No, I don't just mean his going berserk on Bucky at the end of CW, but also all those people he just mercilessly killed in the middle east in the first Iron Man. Tony Stark is a mass murderer. That's not figurative hyperbole about what his weapons were used for, he's personally killed a shitload of people just for having bought his weapons.
He's TWICE the villain Wanda will ever be.

>>82973197
>What Tony did in the past doesn't affect the validity of his views now
"In my defense...that was LAST WEEK."
~Tony Stark, Iron Man 2

>>82959241
>government sanctioned squad
Will Smith cameo when?

>>82973385
>implying he'll still have a career after being in a DC movie

>>82960575
>lunatic sets off a bomb
>throw bomb away
>instead of 30 people dying only 10 die
>"ZOMG U MURDERER HOW DARE UUUUU"

File: everytime.jpg (72KB, 1061x601px) Image search: [Google]

72KB, 1061x601px

>>82973456
Marvel citizens arent the smartest

>>82972514

Fuck you moron.

>>82960609
>this retarded level of thinking

WAHHHH dey killed ultron with no trial or rights THOSE MEANIES

ZOMG dey imprisoned Loki without a trial or rights how dare they!!!

#TRIGGERED Cap murdered all those hydra agents inside the helicarrier deathplatforms without a trial or their rights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>82973456
She doesn't even actually throw him into the building. She threw him straight up, but when she drops her force field the blast from the vest sends him sideways.

Isn't it funny how no one in this thread is even suggesting that the Hydra merc with the suicide-bomber vest might be responsible for the deaths his explosion caused?

>>82973197
Maybe not, but Tony sure blasted the fuck out of Falcon's face point blank when Falcon tried to save Rhodes. Do you know that rubber bullets often lethal when someone is shot in the head with them? Do repulsor blasts have a stun setting, or was Falcon just lucky his head wasn't blown off?

>>82971829

The jetpack contains the parachute.

Given the strenght of Vision's blast, if Flacon had not dodged he was 100% a casuality in the conflict.

>>82973612
No! Laws of physics don't apply to the laws of people!

>>82973650
WOuld it have been better if Tony said to aim for the wing instead?

>>82973650

It the jetpack was blown up, I doubt the parachute that was inside the formerly not blown up jetpack would help much.

>>82973710
Probably.

Falcon has landed with one broken wing/ditched the wings and landed safely before.

>>82973710
Maybe considering what the blast did to War Machine, who is much more protected than Falcon, we could hold off on blasting our (former) friend with alien supertech that we don't really understand.

>>82968253
>How many lives throughout history were saved by the underground railroad, or SS members freeing prisoners from concentration camps under the noses of their supervisors? Sometimes the best way to beat the system is from within.

This is some fucking bullshit you're spewing right here. Did the SS themselves dismantle the Holocaust?

No. You might save a few from within the system, but you need some outside force to topple something innately wrong before it does too much damage. That's what Cap is doing in this movie.

>>82973710

Rhodey, and yes, because the wings are detachable in order for the pack to act as parachute.

Vision probably can control the potency of that blast, but he was emotionally compromised, and the target Rhodey gave him was ill adviced.

>>82968253
>How many lives throughout history were saved by the underground railroad
A lot.
But...the underground railroad was more of a Captain America type thing than a Sokovia Accords thing. It was complete and utter willing disregard of laws that you didn't agree with. The letter of the law was that those people were property and that the masters had a legal right to own them. The underground railroad was in no way, shape, or form working from within the system for change. It was in direct opposition to the law.

>>82972658
Actually, most of THAT I agree with. What I don't agree with is that you could argue that Wanda was in any way not responsible for Ultron, the civilian massacre in Johannesburg. It is equally "Wanda's murderbot" as it Tony's, with the difference that she continued to work with said murderbot voluntarily, and dropped the Hulk on a civilian population because her feelings were hurt. In CW she's a sympathetic character attempting to find redemption who did the best she could. In AoU she was a monster.

So I agree with pretty much everything you said in this post. But then there's this shit:
>>82973314

>>82974084

Fuck, it's in the very name.

underground

As in clandestine, as in agaist the law.

>>82973612
How dare we hold a suicide bomber of a known terrorist organization responsible for his actions

>>82974106
>But then there's this shit:
Go watch the first Iron Man. Tony kills a LOT of people. Not just during his escape when he actually burns people alive, he builds the Mk II and goes around hunting down encampments of people who have weapons his company made and just kills them without regard.

>>82974084
Exactly - like ignoring a superior when he calls asking for intervention so that innocent people can escape from a clearly unjust situation. But the underground railroad had to work in secret, too. You paid lip service to those laws or else you suffered a fate almost as bad as the people you tried to help, and then you went behind the authority to do what needed to be done.

I thought it was pretty clear from Tony's first or second interaction with Ross that he wasn't going to roll over when the guy demanded something ridiculous or abused his power. But signing the Accords - even if you later plan on violating them - still accomplishes the goal of appeasing the world's masses and giving some measure of control to rational appeals they might make.

At least as far as we can tell, because the Accords were woefully underdeveloped and poorly explained.

>>82959464
Daredevil has always been treated a vigilante by the police in the series.

Jessica Jones is operating within the law, for the most part, as a PI.

The biggest problem with the Avengers was their ignoring of sovereign borders. Most countries don't take kindly to paramilitary groups operating in their country without permission.

I don't anyone in the UN cares about JJ or Daredevil since they only operate in New York.

>>82974456
There's a difference between terrorists and arms dealers - most of whom were shown actively committing acts of terror or planning to - versus the willful and deliberate murder of civilians who just happened to be nearby because you want to hurt the reputation and sanity of a third party.

Criminals actively committing crimes are not equal to innocent civilians.

>>82959777
I watched the movie again yesterday and you're right.

During the airport scene Tony's side causes way more collaterial damage. Including Iron Man shooting a load of rockets and blowing up some planes for no reason

I think we all can agree: Widow Was Right

>>82974837
Yeah, he should have gotten BLACKED.

>>82958410
>Bane
Someone shoop a Bane mask on Tony's face.

File: disgust.jpg (504KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

504KB, 1920x1080px

>spirits lifted
what did she meant by this?

File: 1462864421359.gif (2MB, 245x245px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 245x245px

>>82974922
That she wants the robo D.

>>82974638
>the willful and deliberate murder of civilians
I'm gonna need a screencap of Wanda killing *anyone* who isn't an Ultron.

If you do something to piss me off and I lose my temper and shoot random civilians, you are not responsible for murder. Banner is the giant green rage monster who was killing people. Wanda didn't kill anyone.

File: I think this might be bait.png (639KB, 853x340px)

639KB, 853x340px

>>82974959

>>82974638
Wanda just dislikes niggers, leave her alone.

File: 1403040844263.jpg (9KB, 276x183px) Image search: [Google]

9KB, 276x183px

>>82974941
>dat little wrinkle on her nose

File: 1463006159830.jpg (311KB, 2000x3000px) Image search: [Google]

311KB, 2000x3000px

>>82975134
Markus and McFeely really went out of their way to make her a qt.

>>82971829
Vision deliberately hit War Machine. It was an act of emotional spite.

File: God Have Mercy on Me.jpg (139KB, 620x925px) Image search: [Google]

139KB, 620x925px

>>82974941
>That smile
It's not my fault. I'm not to blame. It is the slav girl, the witch who sent this flame.

It's not my fault, if in TOAA's plan, he made the boner so much stronger than the man.

Protect me, Wakanda, don't let this siren cast her spell don't let her fire sear flesh and bone!
Destroy Wanda, and let her taste the fires of Limbo or else let her be mine and mine alone!

>>82958810

Remember how the government's response to the alien invasion was to nuke NY?

File: 1459876469981.jpg (119KB, 495x700px) Image search: [Google]

119KB, 495x700px

>>82975855
You will all bow before her.

File: gveg.jpg (12KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 480x360px

>>82975428
I felt so bad for her in that straight jacket and wanted to reach into the screen and give her a hug

File: 1462986671628.png (762KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

762KB, 1920x1080px

>>82976082
What is this expression trying to convey?

>>82976104
>When Chthon arrives you will be first

>>82958812
>Boohoo he killed my mom while under mind control
Are you really going to pretend that shit wasn't a big deal for Tony?

File: 1326338561706.gif (397KB, 152x200px) Image search: [Google]

397KB, 152x200px

A few things

-Tony gets too much shit for ultron. Granted he probably shouldn't of been toying around with a infinity stone, but at that point it was basically a magic stone that loki had that gave him mind powers and also a stone that got the twins their powers. Tony literally was just fucking around with what he found in the stone. Fuck ultron created himself for the most part. I'm not saying Tony wasn't an idiot or deserves no blame but that way he created ultron is a lot less "At Faulty" then how Pym Created him in the comics.

-Signing the Accords was the "right" thing to do (As the movie pretty much states at the end with Rhodes) but not signing was the "smart" thing to do. The movie was very unclear how the actual structure of power would of worked and I doubt any of the avengers even read half of the bully document. Especially cap after the whole carter death t thing. If anything I would of jockeyed for more liberties, though I don't really think that was the point of the movie.

- Wanda wasn't at fault for the explosion. It was a knee jerk reaction and a mistake. The only reason it was a big stink was because wakandins died. Wakanda wouldn't of gave a shit if it where literally anyone else. She is responsible hulks rampage in AoU and assisting ultron in the first place but it will probably never be brought up again even though it should.

- Clint is kind of an asshole and not in a good way. The ease in which he dropped retirement and for a mission that was against the law rubbed me the wrong way especially with having a family . All because cap saved his life, you know who also saved your life? Tony, he was prepared to eat a nuke for you guys. But you busy with your "Law Law Law =^)" speech. Yeah it was against the law. Whether Tony was trying to stop you didn't change that. Even if it wasn't tony it would of just be other military dude's trying to stop you. Even if you got away you would of still been a wanted criminal

>>82976245
No, Clint went out of retirement for Wanda.
He literally references the fact that he owes her because her brother sacrificed himself to save him.

File: 1486421564652.png (83KB, 494x267px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 494x267px

>>82976082
I wanted to do so since this scene in AoU.

I think in the relief of Whedon not making Wanda a Bendis horror we overlooked his clunky tendency toward half-baked edge-lordery. Stan Lee envisioned her as a reluctant villain, AOU, had it been better structured, might have focused more on Wanda's (and Pietro) struggle to regain the goodness in herself.

Various reviewers have remarked that Russo's Wanda actually feels like Wanda.

Russo's realize that Wanda has no connection to Stark or Widow, so Wisely focus on her relationships with Cap, Vision, and Hawkeye.

>>82961331
Wanda and Zemo both wanted to destroy Tony Stark and the Avengers.

Wanda saw her mistakes and revenge cause untold number of destruction and the possible extinction of humanity and changed her side and sought to redeem herself.

Zemo saw that his revenge tore not only the avengers apart but killed good and innocent people and tried to kill himself to escape guilt.

>>82973065
If a million people died in Sokovia, it would mean the Avengers caused over a million deaths.

>>82968253
Anon, we usually joke that Tony's side is LITERALLY HITLER in Civil War.

It is a joke anon, that doesn't mean you have to go full /pol/.

>>82977340
So would you be fine if Wanda was locked up without trial before her face turn?

>>82965606
I'm Team Cap and I understand why HE MAD.

>>82974398
That's the whole reason why Crossbones died. If he had survived he media would have had another target to dump all the guilt on, since the ENHANCED FORMER VILLAIN WANDA MAXIMOFF is the only one present they dumped the whole thing on her.

>>82977475
If she never redeemed herself? If she hadn't changed her mind after seeing ultron plans?

Waifu or not I'd lock the cell and throw away the key to the ocean myself. With me on the inside.

>>82973572
Way to miss the point.

>>82968253
>or they've never lost a loved one in their life and feel perfectly fit to judge those who have
It doesn't fucking matter how you feel. Murder is wrong, and Tony was ready to kill Bucky. Bucky's not liable for his mind controlled assassinations.
>>82973197
>What Tony did in the past doesn't affect the validity of his views now
What Bucky did was not of his own fucking accord. He WAS changed. How the fuck does your argument not swing both ways?

Bucky should have killed Hank Pym when he was still under control, fucking Ant bastard

>>82973385
>Marvel pick him up
>they finally give him the chance to record a new movie single
Please, someone, anyone. I just need Wild Wild West 2.0

File: hawkeye.png (381KB, 640x300px) Image search: [Google]

381KB, 640x300px

Hey, Thanos!

Death is a slut.

File: pym.jpg (85KB, 634x517px) Image search: [Google]

85KB, 634x517px

>>82978679

Even Hydra knew not to fuck with Pym.

>>82978679
You know, if Pym hadn't retired in 1989, could it have been possible for him to have prevented the murders of Howard and Maria Stark? Howard was transporting samples of Super-Soldier Serum and having Pym hidden in the car would be an ace-in-the-hole in case anyone tries to take it.

I'm disappointed Hank never tangled with the Winter Soldier during the Cold War. Like they had an inconclusive fight where they both got BTFO.

>>82978867
But why? They've assassinated plenty of other people, why wouldn't they target Pym and his company for a revolutionary sub-atomic particle? In fact, why didn't HYDRA break into Pym's house? Surely they would've found the Ant-Man suit in the basement.

>>82975428
> Cap comforts her
> She ends up comforting him; "its on me", "its on both of us".
> Cap is protective of her, but it's Wanda who protects him in Lagos and at the airport.

Steve/Wanda feels.

File: 1429907859153.jpg (190KB, 1280x537px) Image search: [Google]

190KB, 1280x537px

>>82978799

stop, problematic fave

File: 8032966.jpg (22KB, 394x278px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 394x278px

>>82978799
>Death visits people at their bed
>Death visited people while they were having sex

>>82979388
anyone that trespasses on Pym's property is liable to be devoured down to the bone by killer ants

the man keeps a tank on his keychain. do you really wanna push your luck and find out what his worst case scenario plan is?

>>82979715
>do you really wanna push your luck and find out what his worst case scenario plan is?
Yes

>>82976127
Treat me as The Other
I shall become The Other