Well?

Absolutely, just look at the credit scott snyder is receiving for greg capullo's batman run

>>82863983
They get the same amount of credit. It's always refer to as Snyder and Capullo's run.

>>82864027
>They get the same amount of credit. It's always refer to as Snyder and Capullo's run

>same amount of credit
>Snyder gets top billing

By billing the writer first, you are admitting that he gets more credit than the artist. That is how billing works. The most valued participant is listed first.

At least try not to contradict yourself, anon.

>>82863904
When talking about artists people like, they tend to praise them to hell and back. But when people think of definitive runs, landmark stories, a popular series, etc. writers tend to be referenced the most, sometimes as the sole creator. And I don't read interviews too much, but it seems writers are put in the limelight much more often.

>>82864131

5 hours of work for a writer equates to 5 weeks of work for an artist.

Artists come before writers. Period.

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>>82864131
On occasion an artist overshadows the writer.
I've seen Conner referenced more in the Palimotti Grey run more than the actual writers.

>>82864079
And giving artists top billing is what got us the 90s.

>>82863904
Agree. Comic artists do receive attention, but not as much as writers and surprisingly little considering how much they contribute to a comic.

>>82864222
>5 hours of work for a writer equates to 5 weeks of work for an artist.

This.

The "writer" can just say "X and X fight, pgs 13-22"

The artist has to actually draw that shit.

They do the lion's share of the work. Any writer/artist "partnership" is typically an 80/20 split in terms of work, with the artist doing the 80 or more.

Writers get way, WAY too much credit.

Is this the reason everyone is flipping their shit over?
http://screenrant.com/ta-nehisi-coates-black-panther-best-selling/
If so, it's justified.
It's justified even without it too.

I'll lean towards artists not getting enough credit, but what else are they suppose to receive? Who else is suppose to be screaming their names over the mountains?

A work for hire comic artist, as important as they are as the key visual storyteller, is still a penciler (or inker, colorist, the breakdown artist, etc.) and one part of the production. Think about how much work it takes to make movies, all the outsourcing for special effects and stunts, and CGI and all that. They get their names in the credits and go out about their way. Do those guys deserve more or less than the actors?

>>82864433
>>82864433
Not clicking that, what does it say?

>>82864433
Yeah, that's it. That article ripped off a Vulture article that did the exact same thing, btw (in fact, it was worse since they don't mention anyone but Coates at all)

>>82864747
Coates' BP is the best selling issue of the year so far and Coates gets pretty much all of the credit
And like >>82865024 said in some articles the artist and the rest of the creative team isn't even listed at all

>>82865177
To be fair it's probably as well selling BECAUSE Coates.
It might not be cool but it makes sense.

>>82864222
>>82864301
Yeah but most artists can't write for shit, like Tony Daniel or Bryan Hitch.

Also a comic with pretty art and awful writing tends to also be dogshit and even worse than the opposite.

It's rare to have a person that is both a good artist and a good writer.

>>82864301
>its a "I've never actually read a professional comic script not written by Stan Lee" episode

>>82864246
is that bottom middle panel for real?
how did her face break for one sentence?

>>82864433
I think Brian Steelfreeze is a good artist but yeah his art in Black Panther has been very subpar, not his best.

But what if you're Bryan Lee O'Malley or all the other webcomic artists out there?

>>82863904

Artists I hate get too much credit.
Artists I like get not enough credit.

>>82865293
>It's rare to have a person that is both a good artist and a good writer.
>tfw we just lost one of those rare talents
I-I'm OK... ;_;

It's more of a problem outside work-for-hire. When you publish creator-owned work you have to do all the marketing and hypebuilding yourself. Basically the job of a PR guy.

When some fucking cunt of a geek culture website reviews or mentions said work but only refers to the writer (or worse yet, makes no mention of the visuals whatsoever) you are completely losing out on all cred and it is insulting and demeaning.

Saying that, some writers are at fault for this too (KSD being one) so it's an attitude change that needs to adapt industry-wide

>>82865332
Conner's strength isn't faces, is all tits and butts

>>82865300
Writers can write in their heads wherever they are, no matter what they're doing. Hell, sometimes it helps to clear your mind and go for a walk or listen to music while you figure out narrative points or dialogue. 90% of the work is done in your head and you just have to type it out.

Artists can do the same when figuring out poses or say color choices, but when it comes down to actually drawing it the reverse is true. The ideas are only 10% of the work, they still have to get the actual drawings done. Which is way more work and takes an enormous amount of time.

>>82865293
I don't know, good art can transform a mediocre scene into something more through great facial expressions, dynamic paneling etc. Art can elevate so-so writing, and well-written comics can absolutely suffer from shit art. Not to say it makes or breaks it, but those two elements go together for a reason.

>>82865427
>90% of the work is done in your head and you just have to type it out.

Someone's never been chock full of ideas only to blank out when you open Word

>>82865293
I will pay for good art/bad writing but not the opposite.

>>82865427
look, im not gunna argue about this. Yes the artist does more actual labor, but they also get paid way more for their work than the writers do. As far as how much of a character and the actual story is determined by the writer or the artist, that depends on the duo. Stan Lee would just give the most basic of basic shit to Kirby and Ditko and they would make up most of what actually happens and stan would do the dialogue. In those cases I would say Kirby and Ditko are the primary creators, but who knows if they would ever have come up with Spider-Man or what have you on their own.


If you read something like an Alan Moore comic, I'd say about 70-90% of what you see on the page is written in explicit detail by Moore in the script. His scripts are sometimes novel length for a 23 page comic. So I would say the majority of the creative work was done by Moore.
I think it's impossible to make a blanket rule on who did what, and I think the artists and writers should be credited equally. I also think everyone who has helped refine a character over the years should get credit, and not just one old catchphrase spewing man, but I guess I'm just socialist like that.

>>82865420
She makes cute faces. Well a cute face.

Getting a bit more specific, I'd say colorists get the least credit.

>>82864301
I hate this mindset. While the artist does have the most work to do, I absolutely infuriating when people think writers don't do much.

Good Writers don't just sit down, slap a keyboard for a few hours and then hand it off to the artist to do. There is ALOT of research, world building, character developing, note taking, editing, writing and more editing that goes into making stuff.

Like I said: the artist does have the majority of the work to do, but completely dismissing the writing portion as something "easy" is wrong in every way.

>>82865600
Inkers get a raw deal too.
They also don't get enough shit when the art looks bad

>>82865651
This

>>82863983
To be fair, I wouldn't want my name on that run.

Since it's shit.

>>82865600
They're definetely bottom of the rung unfortunately. The fact that the big two don't feature colourists in their solicits illustrates that perfectly.
People are starting to follow colourists more and more now though so it's about time people started crediting appropriately.

>>82865651
Yeah, in like a Bendis comic I agree the artist should go first because he's a lazy hack and he works with amazing artists like Coipel and Pichelli, but when the writer does their work, they fucking do their work.

>>82865651
Agreed. It's definetely not 'ez modo'. Saying that they do have the least stressful part of the job. Once the editor approved script's in they're in the clear. Colourists and letterers are the guys that half to work right up to deadlines and are often at the mercy of writers and artists.

>>82865177
the art in the book is pretty bad

>>82865651

I get what you're saying, but I can understand the frustration some anons here have that the writer is kind of the defacto "leader" of a project. The one that gets the face time for interviews and conventions and getting to be a personality in the culture. Meanwhile the art and production team are nose deep penciling and proofs and everything and they'll get a few lines in a review while the bulk of it is mainly on the story. It all comes to touch points. A writer is also a talker, so you can reach them a lot easier than an inker cranking out pages for some third tier DC or Marvel book.

>>82865668
Inkers are just tracers.

>>82865668
Inkers are a dying trade as most artists go towards working digitally and doing it themselves. Very few people stick around as inking journeymen anyway which is why it doesn't probably get as much spotlight or respect these days.

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>>82865849
Get out.

>>82865476
I'm the opposite. Good writing can overcome bad art. But not the opposite as Hitch or the various wannabe writer artists have demonstrate time and time again.

Great writers can carry a story despite bad art

Great art can't always carry a story despite bad writing

They are under credited anyways though

>>82865849
Actually kill yourself

>>82866028
>>82866046
Just throwing out an opinion, but I think that's because even though the art bears the brunt of the storytelling, it's still dependent on the writing for the story itself. So it's kind of like a foundation built on sand, so to speak

>>82865293
>>82865651

What you fail to understand is that comics are a VISUAL medium. If these were novels, then yeah, the writing would take priority. But they aren't. They're VISUAL.

The art is the most important thing. The artist is the storyteller, not the writer.

Saying you're a comics "writer" is laughable. Like saying you're a musician when you're just the lyricist and don't actually know how to read, write or play music.

>>82865373
Yeah man Cooke was a rare gem.

>>82866153
But the artist isn't telling their story, they're telling the writer's story

a shitty story with incredible art is still a shitty story

>>82866279
>But the artist isn't telling their story,

If you sincerely believe that then you are clueless.

It is the artist who designs the character from the ground up; age hair build posture weight ethnicity fashion and so on. You can tell more about a character from looking at them than from hearing their life story; the artist can tell more in a silent panel than a writer can in a whole comic (a picture is worth a thousand words).

A writer says "they fight" and collects a check for those two words. An artist spends a month or more putting the PERSONALITY into that fight, laying it out and adding all the touches that make it TELL a STORY.

And here, I'm just gonna drop the mic and shut you up right not.

An artist can write their own book if they feel like it. A writer CANNOT draw their own book. Writers need artists, not the other way around.

>>82865476
I dunno I can't buy a comic by say Kate Leth even if JH Williams was drawing it. In that case I'll just go and buy art straight from Williams.

Also Sara Pichelli is good but her being associated with Bendis kind of doesn’t make me want to pick anything because of him, I just hate that Bendi has good artists with him especially since his nodern shit sucks.

I don’t really like Dillon's Frankface but I did managed to go through it in Preacher and Punisher comics because the stores were entertaining.


>>82866153
What you fail to understand is that Comics besides being visual also illustrates a story and if the story is not good it fails too, it relies on both things.

>>82866153
Did a writer fuck you over? Lol you probably deserved it with that bitch attitude.

>>82866153
>What you fail to understand is that comics are a VISUAL medium. If these were novels, then yeah, the writing would take priority. But they aren't. They're VISUAL

A lot of visual arts mediums have been moving away from script writers, eliminating them completely from the creative process.

Shows like Adventure Time, Steven Universe and Regular Show aren't scripted, but the storyboarders (the artists) tell the story straight to the storyboard rather than bothering with a script. The artists "write" the story through their art.

Writers are unnecessary and often just get in the way. Chris Sanders produced a pretty great comic in the late 80s about how worthless writers are regarding the animation process and only do their level best to ruin things with their own self-importance and incompetence.

>>82866377
>It is the artist who designs the character from the ground up; age hair build posture weight ethnicity fashion and so on

Are you serious? I honestly can't tell as it's not like the artist does everything, this is a joint effort when designing and sometimes completely on the writer to describe just what the person/whatever looks like.

>>82866377
Who hurt you, anon

>>82866474
And surprise, those shows are all shit

>>82866377
>An artist can write their own book if they feel like it
No, they can't. Most artists literally don't know how to write.

Comic artists have some more benefists.
They can sell the original work or sell sketches at cons, while writers can't.
Just a point of view.

>>82866388
>>82866428

You guys laugh at experienced animators like John K and have turned him into a meme, but everything he's said about writing in comics and animation is entirely true.

The best comics "writers" all doubled as artists (Kirby, Ditko, Jeff Smith, Stan Sakai) because that's where the storytelling is done: The Art.

Comics writers are more commonly parasites. If they were actually good at writing, they would be novelists or poets; they wouldn't need to leech off the hard work of artists in order to make themselves feel legitimate.

There are plenty of comics bought for the art alone. I know plenty of people will stick with a book that has shit art for a good story but at the end of the day, comics are a visual medium.

>>82866377
A artist can "write" their own book but if they don't know how to do proper storytelling the comic will tank.

Read anything from Jim Lee and Tony Daniels they draw better than they write, they have no business writing.

Also Manapul is writing Trinity and from some of his interviews for it it looks like he's dragging Batman back to his 90's paranoid persona but who knows how good of a writer he is, but we will see.

Few artists know how to tell a good story and be able to draw good.

>>82866563
>Ditko
>a good writer

>>82866556
And? Writers get paid less per page but they can take on a lot more.

On average an artist doing pencils and inks can do maximum two issues a month (at a push) and a lot of them struggle at even that. Just look at Ryan Kelly for instance. He's was drawing two titles (Survivor's Club and Cry Havoc) but recently had to get ink assistance. The most recent Cry Havoc ish was half-inked by three other people

>>82864249

And giving writers top billing is what got us today.

>>82866377
>A writer says "they fight" and collects a check for those two words

Too obvious, but for the amount of replies I'll give you a 9/10

>>82866377
>Writers need artists, not the other way around.

This is true.

>But anon

You say

>lolol remember early 90s Image? Huh!?

Yeah, I remember. I remember all those comics that were written by the ARTISTS selling mad numbers that completely and utterly DWARF the current era of Superstar Writer driven comics.

Also, have you people ever heard of manga? The artist is the writer as a rule. And SUPPLIES! Those outsell Superstar Writer shit by the millions.

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>>82865849

>>82866661
You'd take 90s over now?

>>82866661
No it isn't. Editorial is responsible for what's wrong with modern comics.

>>82866698
>The artist is the writer as a rule
>what is an assistant
Also, manga written by a person and drawn by another one exist.

>>82866698
>Comparing western comics to manga

People actually give a shit over there and it's made by near slave labor. That shit wouldn't work here.

>>82866637
>On average an artist doing pencils and inks can do maximum two issues a month (at a push)

That's a recent illness of the post-Image generation of artists.

Missed deadlines didn't become vogue until artists designated themselves as "celebrities" who don't have to meet deadlines.

I remember I had both Astonishing X-Men and Ultimates II in my pullbox back in the day and both titles were late by months (plural) because the artists felt they were "too big" to meet deadlines.

Writers may be hacks or whatever, but at least they don't miss deadlines because of their egos. Artists back in the day, the pre-Image celebrity era, actually treated their jobs like JOBS and understood accountability. Late issues were rare and always came with an apology from editorial.

Not anymore and we can thank the celebrity artists for that.

>>82866814
>Writers may be hacks or whatever, but at least they don't miss deadlines because of their egos
>What is Sandman Overture

>>82866698
>early 90s Image
Literally the exact same time as the British Invasion

And guess which one gets more critical acclaim

>>82866563
It almost like being a cartoonist is important.

>>82866563
Ditko and Kirby did good with Stan Lee but on their own? Ditko made some interesting characters but the stories were mostly shit and then he fell to obscurity while Kirby managed to produce New Gods but everything else he did on his own was mediocre.

Don't get me wrong Stan Lee was a weasel and his writing not that great but he also held things together and his decision making and plotting is what lead to some great characters, hell he is the one who put Ditko on Spider-Man and not Kirby, and if you think Ditko would come up with Spidey on his own then you're mistaken, but he contributed to him even if he recycled some Blue Beetle aspects for Peter but him being a down in luck teen and origin was Stan's idea.

And even then Ditko steered Peter into an unlikeable jerk and a mouthpiece, and then Romita Sr. came in and revitalized the comic with Stan.

>>82866563
You are fucking delusional if you think comic writers are "parasites".

>>82866863
Wasn't that Williams taking forever because he's Williams?

>>82866814
>Writers may be hacks or whatever, but at least they don't miss deadlines because of their egos.

Who is Warren Ellis

>>82866927
No, it was all Gaiman because he kept giving con attendances priority. He admitted as much.

>>82866927
In this particular case Gaiman also had a hand in it since he was touring or whatever during that time, so it was hard to coordinate.

>>82866566
But even the art needs to be storyboarded and planned and if the story is shit then it's shit, it doesn’t work, sequential art relies on both story and visuals.

Those people just want pretty pictures then and in that case why not just buy prints from the artists instea of enabling work for a shitty writer? This is how we get Bendis being popular when all he does is ride on popular characters and good artists but oh no it's pretty to look at! Barf.

>>82863904
twitter screencaps are not high quality images or informative, thought provoking posts.

>>82866661
No that's editors, giving Writers top billing is what got us 2000AD.

>>82866931
You seen Ellis? He looks like shit nowadays what happened to him?

>>82867046
And 90s Vertigo

>>82867090
I have not, but that reminds me...

>>82866814
>Writers may be hacks or whatever, but at least they don't miss deadlines because of their egos.
Who is Frank Miller

>>82867046
>editors

You see, THIS is what no one is bringing up.

The EDITOR is the one who steers the direction of the story and has all the narrative authority. Most often, the writer is just fleshing out notes and directives given to them by the editor.

So the "writer" doesn't come up with any of the ideas or plotting (the editor does that for him) nor any of the visual specifics or personality (the artist does that for him).

They serve no purpose. They're like bureaucracy; a middleman who collects a check and justifies their existence by saying they get paid so they must be important.

>>82863904
That whole *"Created by Bob Kane" with no mention of Bill Finger* thing tips the scales very heavily in favor of the artists because of how long it's been going on.
>>82864301
>The "writer" can just say "X and X fight, pgs 13-22"
That's a pretty shit writer. Read "The Maxx" and try to tell me that Bill Loebs was coasting while Sam Kieth did all the work.

>>82867130
>Who is Frank Miller

An artist who writes his own comics? Proving my point that script writers are superfluous in a visual medium?

Thanks for the help, chum.

>>82867130
Frank misses deadlines because he's battling Stan Lee for his life force, not ego

>>82867090
Ellis is not well atm. I don't know the details but it's what's causing delays in Karnak and other things.

He seems very down on Twitter the last while too

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>>82866814
>Writers may be hacks or whatever, but at least they don't miss deadlines because of their egos

Didn't it take 5 years for this fat fuck to finish writing Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do?

And who wrote Ultimate Hulk vs. Wolverine? I recall that one taking YEARS between issues because the writer was being a lazy shit.

>>82867038
Neither is your post, smartass.

Artist's don't get enough

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>>82867172
(You)

>>82867254
Damon Lindelof. He figured since he was a big shot TV writer (LOST y'all) he could take his sweet time with his "fun" comic book gig, I mean, who the fuck even cares about comics, am I right?

>>82867279
Well most his best works do have him as an artist, to be fair

>>82866814
>Writers may be hacks or whatever, but at least they don't miss deadlines because of their egos.

Who is Brian K Vaughan

>>82867254
>>82867290
>>82867341

Writers have the easiest role in the production of a comic and they STILL miss deadlines.

What jokes.

>>82867290
>who the fuck even cares about comics, am I right?
You might think you have a point, but the majority of the people browsing this board don't give a shit about comics.

>>82866814
>Writers may be hacks or whatever, but at least they don't miss deadlines because of their egos.
Who is Joss Whedon

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>>82864301
You mean something like this took 5 weeks to draw?

>>82867428
>Who is Joss Whedon

Astonishing X-Men was late because Cassidy missed his art deadlines, not because Whedon missed his script deadlines.

That shit was 100% the artist's fault.

>>82867424
I dunno, editors seem to have the easiest job since they only seem to do it half the time

>>82867261
My post was both informative and thought provoking. And yes, I am both smarter than you, and an ass. Deal with it.

>>82867341
Who is Neil Gaiman

>>82867490
Already been mentioned

>>82867482
Considering this thread has over a hundred replies and it's still going, I'd say that single twitter poll was far more informative and thought provoking than anything you've done in your entire pointless, pathetic, pusillanimous life.

>>82866814
Have you seen what pre-Image era comic art looks like? Ever since crazy Jim Lee rendering came in demand, it began to take longer to actually do comic pages. for better or worse.

>>82867634

Pencils haven't gotten more demanding. If anything, it's coloring that has gotten more intense and time consuming.

Yet you never hear that a book was late because the COLORIST missed a deadline.

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artists are under credited, writers tend to get credited for long cape runs because the writer is the main stay if there are fill in artists and whatnot. I say Claremont's X-Men run because Claremont was the dominant moving force on that book, I say Azzarello and Chiang's Wonder Woman to describe the new 52 Wondy but even then I feel Azz's Wondy is still appropriate because Chiang had a lot of dip outs, Saga isn't just BKV's Saga, it's BKV and Staples' Saga. It really all just depends on the type of creative team on the book for who should get the credit when shorthanding "X's Run." Sometimes writers can be over credited but I say it's pretty rare

I'm an artist and write my own shit, mostly because I am a neurotic control freak when it comes to my creations. This whole mind set right here >>82864301 bugs the shit out of me. Yeah, drawing is more labor intensive than writing but writing is a whole lot of headaches and mental labor on it's own. Plot progression, character development, plot points, and the shit in between minor to major plot points isn't really something that one can just easily shit out if they want it to be good. It completely undermines the writer in favor of the art and while I do want artists to get more credit this is the worst kind of mentality to go with. This is fucking jealousy speaking rather than appreciating everyone that worked on the book. It's extremely shallow.

Inkers and colorists on the other hand. They get the real shit end of credit.

>>82867955
>Inkers and colorists on the other hand. They get the real shit end of credit.

>You say while shitting all over the letterer by pretending he doesn't exist or doesn't matter

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>>82868059
Aw no

>>82867955
>They get the real shit end of credit

Yeah I remember John Byrne lumping colorists in with letterers saying you should only stop and notice them if they're doing a bad job, although I believe he is some form of color blind.

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>>82868059
>>82868122

I can forgive forgetting about letterers to an extent. A letterer's job is for their work to be "invisible", the text has to read so fluidly and intuitively that you don't even notice it's there. You only notice lettering when it's bad (out of sync, misspelled, obstructing art, etc).

If a letterer does their job well, then you won't even know that they've done their job at all.

>>82863904
It should be a team work thing between writer and artist but unless the story is just obscenely boring or awful I think an artist rarely gets credit for being the driving force behind the books sails. But there are too many books I've bought with not horrible but forgettable writing who have artists I love, currently Cho and Pichelli come to mind. BUT unlike with an artist I may pick something up just because I like the art and continue to pick it up I personally have looked over or ignored good writing with bad art until someone has suggested that this book is particularly good like Ewing on New Avengers.

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>>82868243
That's kind of a shame in assembly line comics, in more traditional cartooning great lettering can add to the story

>>82868397
>That's kind of a shame in assembly line comics, in more traditional cartooning great lettering can add to the story

Moebius used to go on tirades against artists who didn't do their own lettering.

To him, the lettering was part of the art and the very idea of having someone else do that for you and outside of your control was crazy to him.

And he has a point.

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ive enjoyed a lot of comics with bad art and good writing
comics with good art and bad writing bore me to death

but I can honestly say I prefer comics with good art and good writing

>>82868059
do letterers even exist anymore with the dawn of digital lettering

>>82868397
>>82868475

Only American artists don't letter their own work. But that's mostly because American artists lack work ethic and will delegate as much of their duties to others as they can (it's why they also don't ink or color their own work, which is another thing that's uniquely American).

Artists of American comics like to take 100% of the credit for the images you see on the page, but they really only did a third of the work or less.

The American comics "process" is utterly baffling to me and completely counterintuitive to creativity or integrity of art.

>>82868543
>do letterers even exist anymore with the dawn of digital lettering

Of course. They just do it digitally (duh).

IDW has dedicated letterers like Shawn Lee. Admittedly, their job is so creatively nil that they can letter an issue a day, so companies don't need to employ very many of them.

Lettering is a step up from the mail room, honestly.

>>82868243
Like good CGI.

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>>82868543
Yeah.
>>82868599
There's still plenty of north american artists that do their own lettering. You just won't find them at Marvel and DC and will have to look beyond them.

>>82868506
I can deal with good art and average writing, I would never want to deal with anything bad especially art.

>>82868475
Yeah, but the American comic book industry is largely stuck using the same assembly line methods of the 1930's that Eisner created in his studio. Of course pretty quickly he sold his share and went on to be one of the great auteurs.

I prefer having comics come out " when they're done" rather than month to month no matter what

>>82868599
when most of the colors you see are just bog-standard "slap realistic colors on it and call it a day", the days of a colorist being a major contributor to the comic are pretty much over

>>82863904
i'd take that seriously if Murphy was actually a good at arting.

>>82868599
You're either shitposting or ignorant as fuck and live in a sheltered world of BD and nothing else.

>>82866377
you have no clue about the writing process and no clue how different writers approach the process. Some writers will draw out stick men to illustrate to the artist what they want, they also will sometimes do the page layout. Most of the time they do segment the panels to tell the artist exactly what they want. It doesn't always work like this but the good writers like Moore and Ellis give a lot of directions to the artist.

And yes, artists can do their own books, but they almost always turn out shit. If they are a writer who is also an artist it works, but if they are an artists first then the story suffers

>>82868833
>sheltered world of BD

Europe?

>>82868799
>when most of the colors you see are just bog-standard "slap realistic colors on it and call it a day", the days of a colorist being a major contributor to the comic are pretty much over

Yet the "realistic" colors are what the artists (pencilers) prefer and always wanted.

The Flex Mentallo, Sandman, Killing Joke, and The Maxx recolors that replace the impressionistic colors with realistic colors are all artist approved.

In those cases, the original colorist obstructed the original intent of the artist by imposing their personal desires, and these works are "corrected".

>>82868833
It's the sheltered world of "I have literally never read any comics that don't have Batman on the front and were published before 2011"

>>82868826
Murphy is an absolute prick, but you can't deny his excellent draughtsmanship man. The guy is a rockstar for a reason, if it his style is showy as fuck

Speaking of, the guy could've easily afforded printing his Kickstarter book without having to crowdfund.

>>82864301
>The "writer" can just say "X and X fight, pgs 13-22"
>The artist has to actually draw that shit.
they should get more credit because they're good at following someone else's directions?

with this kind of thinking, i'm beginning to see why autists shit all over Stan Lee and suck Kirby's dick. you want to see what an artist does when he's put in charge? look at all of Kirby's clusterfuck DC books: cut-rate norse mythology, planet of the apes knock-off, etc that never lasted beyond 8-12 issues.

>>82868826
Murphy may be a dick but god damn do I love his art.

>>82868889
well that just goes to show that artists aren't the perfect gods of comics that anon who's super-pissed about the mere existence of writers seems to be claiming

although I will admit I like Flex's recolor more

>>82868888
Yah

>>82868889
Sometimes it's an editorial mandate. I know for example Goran Parlov had to fight for flat colours on one of his recent works

>>82868698
>You just won't find them at Marvel and DC
Darwyn Cooke used to do his own lettering.

>>82868889
It's weird. In the Killign Joke the colorist was specifically picked by Moore because they worked together at 2000AD and on Watchman so his creative input was valued, Bolland just disagreeded with him. For Flex Mentallo the colorist was just some guy DC picked and Grant/Frank had zero interaction or input

>>82869050
>Darwyn Cooke used to do his own lettering.
yeah, and you see where that got him...

>>82868889
>The Flex Mentallo, Sandman, Killing Joke, and The Maxx recolors that replace the impressionistic colors with realistic colors are all artist approved.

None of them are bad recolors, people only like them more because they grew up with the originals, but they are objectively equal or the same quality.

>>82868889
>The Flex Mentallo, Sandman, Killing Joke, and The Maxx recolors that replace the impressionistic colors with realistic colors are all artist approved.

But the "impressionist" colors of the originals were so much better. Comics aren't movies; trying to make them more "cinematic" or "realistic" is squandering the medium.

The impressionist colors made Sandman and Killing Joke so much more surreal and frightening than the bland, drab, "realistic" colors that the reprints churned out. And fuck the artists if that's the "version they always wanted". The Star Wars Special Editions are the versions Lucas always wanted and they're a thousand times worse than the original, "flawed" releases.

>>82869050
I mean currently. Stokoe did a Avengers one shot and lettered his own work in that but it's not the standard for a monthly book like X-Men or Batman to have the artist letter their own works.

>>82869144
Killing Joke is objectively a bad recolor

Sandman and Flex came out of it just fine, can't speak for The Maxx

>>82869291
>Killing Joke is objectively a bad recolor
true facts

>>82869291
>can't speak for The Maxx

Maxximized is almost indistinguishable from the original versions. It isn't changed in any meaningful way.

It's just a cashgrab, plain and simple.

>>82869291
>objectively a bad recolor
No Bolland's colors look great, however reading his and the original is like reading two different stories. Of the two I do enjoy the original more, but I understand why Bolland wanted to redo it. He said he was going for a Eraserhead vibe by making it so stark and colorless compared to all the hues of the original

>>82869291
>Killing Joke is objectively a bad recolor

It is not, though I prefer the original

>>82869424
>It's just a cashgrab, plain and simple.

Aren't some of the old trades out of print and expensive?

File: thronem.jpg (408KB, 1000x793px) Image search: [Google]

408KB, 1000x793px

>>82869452
>>82869473
>everything is lit from behind the "camera"
>everyone is shiny because lol gradients
>pages become to busy because every object is given equal focus
anyone who says the Killing Joke recolor is good doesn't know shit about coloring

Look at how runs of issues are generally talked about anywhere including here and you will have your answer.

>>82869628
>everything and everyone is red because DUDE CRAZY LMAO
>pages become a blur because lazy colorist thought he knew better

anyone who says the Killing Joke original color is good doesn't know shit about coloring

>>82870296
>red
look cuntwipe

I will fucking walk you through why the original coloring is better

in the posted page, the narrative action follows the color yellow, building up to BAM there's Joker, the only normally-colored thing on the page. Oh shit, you say, Joker is the normal one in this setting of sheer fucking lunacy. Nothing distracts from the narrative action, and you see the narrative first, details second.

in the recolor, everything is colored accurately, but this takes away from the narrative. From panel 1 to panel 2, your eyes go first to FUN, instead of homeslice on the elephant

In panel 3, your eyes go first to Gordon's hand, instead of the midget. In Panel 4, instead of the freaks in the foreground being colored in cooler colors to place them at a lower priority in your brain, they're colored the same as the action in the background, jarring you out of it since hey there's a fat leg in the way

Panel 5, you again have the cooler colors on the dolls, you make them fade into the background, and again providing that build up to BAM Joker in Panel 6

and Panel 6 is the real kicker. In the original coloring, Joker is THERE. He is the only hint of normalcy. His suit and skin clashes with his throne, it draws your eye. In the recolor, the less vibrant purple sort of fades into his throne that matches his skin, which is the same color as the roller coaster lights in the background, the dolls become too busy and the page gets lost in the details with a normal coloring instead of again, that wash from cool to warm

and further, John Higgins is an excellent colorist and in no way lazy

>>82870296
>>82870854
and I left out that you actually lose a lot of the neat little things like hatching in the recolor, most evident in the elephant and the fat lady's leg in panel 4

>>82870854
>I will fucking walk you through why the original coloring is better

You don't understand, I agree, I prefer the original coloring, it's the only one I own too. Your post proves my point, you prefer the original because you read that first and so, your eyes have been drawn to certain details because that's how you read it.

If someone else reads the recolor for the first time, he can too write a long post about how his experience was better and having everything red distracts him from something or other.

Both colorings are good, we prefer the first one.
ut the recolor is objectively good.

>>82867131
well you actually have no way of knowing what the editorial/writer balance is in this case.

File: drive me to drink.gif (2MB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 640x480px

>>82871138
Not him but I disagree, I think everything in the recolor looks far too plastic to be considered objectively good. It screams "lazy application of gradients" instead of an actual recoloring of the story. I think the recolor is just that, a recoloring of panels, instead of using the colors to enhance the story (i.e. what a colorist should be doing, like Matt Wilson's work on Samnee and Waid's Daredevil)

Frankly I don't think the person who did the recolor spent any time or effort on it, and I think the work we see backs me up on that.

>>82871138
I actually read the recolor first, didn't even know it was recolored until I started coming here

there's some tumblr by someone more artistically inclined than I that lays out step by step why the recolor is bad, but for the life of me I can't find it

>>82868826
I don't even know who the fuck Murphy is.

Can't you just weigh the question?

>>82866908
>mediocre
He did Kamandi for 40 issues, it was far more successful than any of the New Gods comics and had enough appeal that ran on after his departure, ending only due to the DC Implosion. Eternals, The Demon, Kirby's 70's CA run are all excellent.

>>82867241
He had a medical problem, I think it was an aneurysm but he isn't as lively as he used to be.

Faggots don't understand that making a comic is a team effort, it's rarely only one person.

>>82867241
That's wrong though, the artist is what was causing Karnak delays. Look how quickly in succession 2, 3, and 4 came out once they replaced him. And his James Bond book came out on time through its first arc. He seems the same on twitter to me, posting the same shit he always does.

>>82873271
Eternals was shit.

>>82867131
Uh no, editors steering the wheel causes a lot of messes when they take full control, their jobs is just to reign in the writers when they go to far but the creative aspect should always go to the writers.

Editors usually just brainstorm and writers flesh it out or sometimes they are allowed to do their own thing, you're a fool if you think Morrison's writing is in large controlled by editors.

>>82865177
to be fair it did sell a lot off his name. If this was an Ales Kot and Stelfreeze book I doubt it would have sold half of what it did

Writers sell books, not artist.

>>82863904
>artists should receive top billing

oh boy the 90's are back baby!

Honestly I would be more likely to give artist equal billing if they didn't fill ins every other arc.

They do a lot of the actually difficult work, but good writing is simply much more rare than pretty art.
Good art on a technical level is also super rare but it isn't as critical as good writing.

>>82869628
posting them side-by-side triggers me, spoiler that shit next time asshole


I'll never get over the recolor

>>82865651
>implying artists don't practice every day of their lives

>>82866533
>MUH CAPES

>>82875789
Shut up, Brandon.