Is he right?

>>82786848
That's why you kill more than just one killer at the time, duh.

>>82786848
He should just shut the fuck up and rape the Joker already.

>>82786848
Not if both people involved were killers from the beginning, then there would be 1 less killer in the world

>>82786848
And if you don't stop him the number of living innocent people doesn't. It actually goes down.

Fucking retard.

>>82786880
>innocent people

Nice meme

>>82786871
This.

If you kill n killers, where n > 1, the number of killers in the world is reduced by n-1.

>>82786880
Yeah, came in here to say exactly this.

Also feels dumb to act as though judgment re: one killer is automatically applicable to all others but this discussion been done a million times on /co/ alone.

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>>82786848
Yes, but only if you kill one killer. This is fixed by killing multiple killers.

Look at Frank here, he's reduced the world's population of killers by a few thousand. Which is way more then Batman can claim to do.

>>82786848
Honestly writers should just stop adressing the fact that he doesn't kill. We know it's not a real trait of the character anyway.

Thank god at least the movies ignore it.

>>82786848
How many people died because he refused to kill villains?

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>>82786848
not if you kill another one
or a dozen

>>82786912
>>82786946
>kill thousand of no name goons
>nothing changes because it's a comic

at least it helps people feel morally superior for liking a cheap capeshit product instead of another

>>82786848
So that means the Punisher is the most effective crime fighter ever.

>>82786848
Nah, if one man kills all the killers, there's only one killer left.

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>>82786848
>Is he right?

Let me appeal to the authority on that one and raise you a Trudeau.

Kill two killers and you have one less.

>>82786848
No, that makes no sense. If you kill one killer, th number of killers stays the same. If you kill ten, the number goes don by nine. This is the Punisher's mathematics.
>>82786946
He was already a killer before he started. He had already crossed the line of taking a human life in war, all he had to do was transfer the idea of a war to his fight against criminals. So he's sacrificed his own soul, so to speak, but as long as he keeps going, he's taking out more killers than he's putting in.

One might say that his example would add more killers though, more vigilantes. The thing is, the last time he came across a group that emulated him in murdering, he found their methods or motives wanting, and he killed them.

>>82786848
If you kill all the killers, then there is one killer, and you can kill yourself and then there are zero killers, until someone who has never killed gets their first kill.

I think, regardless, the concept of Batman's nonlethality is stupid.

I have family that work in sports medicine and ICU's.

The amount of deaths that occur from simple sports related physical damage and injuries, like concussions and abrasions is impressive.People die all the time from random bar fights and simple punches. A good punch can trigger a heart attack, and untreated, someone can die before medical aid arrives.

Then we have this fucking guy running around, punching, kicking, breaking people in half with wrestling moves, giving major concussions and horrible lacerations with his bat-rangs and bat shurikens, and beating people half to death every fucking night?

No, fuck you. Batman THINKS he doesnt kill, but he does. He murders people EVERY DAY, and doesnt realize it.He just doesnt kill the people that survive his horrible death dealing.

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>>82786973
Not if you off yourself, as well.

That would be correct if you only killed one killer, but he's Batman. He could kill dozens of killers, and someone that kills killers is a better killer than a killer that kills the innocent.

If Batman were a killer he could do the whole Punisher thing a lot better.

>>82786848
i have always prefered the batman wont kill because he knows if he starts he cant stop angle

>>82787015
it was especialy obvious in the arkham games half those goons should have died before the day was out

>>82787015
Is this autism?
Not being able to separate fiction from reality or something else?

>>82786848
Yes, given the assumption that the person killing the killer wasn't a killer before that particular incident. Otherwise, no.

>>82787022
Now I'm picturing a version of Injstice where after being initially shocked at Superman killing Joker just goes "No, Clark. Wait. You're right, but we only get one shot at this. Slow down, plan it out, make this work."

>>82787085
See, that would be more interesting.

>>82786848
Then just kill two killers, and thats one less killer.

For a detective genius batman isn't very smart.

>>82786848
It's a cool line, if you don't read into it, but no, he's not right.

>>82786848
There isn't anything inherently wrong with being a killer. If a policeman shoots a gang member who has muredered in the past, technically you have 2 killers, yet one is recognized as a defender of the law and the other, a criminal murderer.

>>82786977
Who is he? Apart from being a very silly man.

>>82787119
That thinking is problematic.

>>82786848
when did he say that? I want to know which writer I have to blame

>>82787119
That gang member dindu nuthin

>>82787124
Prime Minister of Canada, he became a meme on /pol/

If you kill yourself is there one less killer in the world? Consider that even if you killed no one else, you killed yourself, making you a killer.

>>82787027
Same.

That's narratively true too. If he started killing his enemies, then suddenly he would be established as a hero who kills his enemies, and that's not only what people would expect from him, it would inform how writers used him in relation to other heroes. It's arguably what has happened to Wonder Woman, as she started out as a character who fights, but is ultimately against war and killing, and tries to reform her enemies, and now she's often used as the "warrior", and hacks use her to contrast to other less brutal heroes in Elseworld stories and such.

Hank Pym hit Janet once in comics, and since then the "wife beater" brand has never fully come off, and then when Mark Millar writes an alternate Avengers, he makes Hank habitually abusive toward Janet.

Scarlet Witch used to be the level-headed member of the Kooky Quartet, when the guys were letting their testosterone get the better of them. But eventually more chaotic elements were introduced, and more writers grabbed hold of those, and it didn't stop, until eventually, she's a crazy basket case, who will try to destroy the Avengers because of "muh children" and ends up erasing 616's mutant population.

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>>82787119

>>82787153
>erasing multiverse's mutant population.
ftfy

>>82787145
Assuming you haven't killed anyone before, total killers in the world would still be equal to before you killed yourself.

>>82786848

It could mean less victims though. Just playing Trigon's Advocate here.

>>82787119
It depends on the circumstance. If he walks up to a gang member and kills him he is in fact not justified in his killing.

>>82787042
>point
>
>
>
>your head

>>82787153
That sounds more like writers are hacks that cannot give a character complexity without going overboard.

People are complex things. We arent just one sided ideals. You can kill and hate to kill, abhor it. You can hit your wife once and absolutely hate all wife beating and and spousal abuse.Sometimes a slap happens.

Writers need to learn self control.

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>>82787127
>>82787158
Too late. I made up my mind and I'm going to kill all of you bastards

>>82787198
except there was no point
Batman is not a killer because those things don't kill in comics

>>82786912
I don't think there's anything that enrages me about comics more than the fact that the only idea they can come up with as the opposite to "never kill baddies, never ever nosiree!" is "LE EDGY PUNISHMAN SHOOTS LITTLE BLACK DRUGDEALERS IN THE EYEBALLS 800 TIMES A DAY HE'S SO GRIM AND DARK KILL EVERYBODY LOL". They just jump from one idiotic extreme to the other. Why are the so incapable of approaching the subject from a reasoned, realistic point of view?

>>82787194
agreed. I just think that based off Batman's quote, he's saying the act of killing is morally wrong when I believe it depends on the circumstances.

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>>82786848
That philosophy is fine. The true issue is the continuity and time frames of villains.

A person killing a couple is a serial killer. Killing hundreds is a terrorist. The problem really comes down to the multiplication. Someone killing a few people? It makes sense to arrest them. Heck even the Joker, if you keep his kill count not into the thousands. He would effectively become a terrorist in the eyes of the public.

But writers don't do a good enough job of explaning public consciousness, time frames and villains. As such, it feels like it is "oh another week when x villain is just slaughtering x amunt of people for little to no dramatic effect". Writers have essentially made human lives cheap.

Let us say for argument the joker had killed 36 people. That would still put him up there. People would still shit there pants. He isn't murdering a person every week, this is stretched over time. Suddenly Batman's philosophy makes sense.

Let me give an example where it desn't make sense. An example of the multiplication. New 52 Riddler literally took over Gotham after zero year. He most likely caused billions of dollars worth of damage to property and infrastructure. He ruled over the city with drones and who knows how many people he directly killed or who indirectly died of disease or starvation. How come Synder has this guy just rocking up at Arkham? He is no longer "The Riddler" he took over a whole city.

Writers constantly want to up the odds. Make villains more powerful. It is because a lot of writers don't have the nuance to do it. A man running round with riddles, killing people and setting traps is much more menacing and interesting than a guy who controlled Gotham for months in a reign of terror controlling drones.

>>82787203
>Writers need to learn self control.
A nice statement, but overly idealistic. There will ALWAYS be hacks. Which is why in long-running fiction you need to be careful about what path you want to start a character down.

>>82787255
There are plenty of characters who kill or don't kill based on context.

Captain America. Iron Man. Thor. Cyclops. Most of the X-Men, actually. Probably even the majority of Marvel characters.

>>82787268
I could believe Batman, being crazy, might never kill his villains, but it never makes sense to me that not once has any of the villains suffered an "unfortunate accident" in prison after killing hundreds or thousands of people. They expect me to believe that after the fiftieth fucking time arresting the Joker from going on a killing spree that leaves little children and women dead with laughing corpse masks on their faces that none of the cops are ever just going to be "you know what, FUCK this guy" and putting a mercy bullet in him. Hell, at this point I bet there would be plenty of people who would gladly STAND TRIAL and go to prison for "murder" for doing society the service of eliminating these pestilences, and no jury on earth would ever find them guilty.

>>82787286
Because Marvel is for adults while DC is for kids.
DC is the company with Superman as their primary hero after all.

>>82786912
Except he only kills gangsters and opens up room for more people to fill their shoes

If Frank wanted to do something that mattered he'd aim for Fisk or Osborn

>>82787286
>Captain America. Iron Man. Thor. Cyclops. Most of the X-Men, actually. Probably even the majority of Marvel characters.
>all marvel characters
what a surprise
it's almost like they didn't base their story universe around an infantilizing god-man who solves all the world's problems by being really strong and a morally righteous twat

>>82786848
>If you kill a killer, the number of victims in the world is reduced

>>82787170
Oh shit you're right it's an instant simultaneous +1 and -1

>>82786848
He isn't right even technically (You only increase number of killers on your first kill). Also, he says "Kill" like it's a bad thing. Society runs on killing or threatening to kill people.

Well, recently first world adopted kidnapping and holding people against their will until they die as a substitute for killing, but still, threatening people with violence is what society all about.

>>82787286
>>82787321
At this point, I think the only important Marvel character that refuses to kill under any circumstances is Spider-Man

>>82787323
there's no guarantee for that
the killers left could easily kill more people too and keep everything balanced

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>>82787317
He has tried

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>>82787298
>They expect me to believe that after the fiftieth fucking time arresting the Joker
I don't think you read my post... if you had you would have seen that I questioned that.

I said the time frame and continuity of a villain is the problem. They need to explain and expand it out so it makes SENSE. The issue is not the philosophy of Batman not killing. The issue is the way villains are written.

A Joker who has killed 36 people over 2 years could be just as menacing. Writers have made human life too cheap. It is why even street level villains have killed untold numbers. So that when the next cosmic entity rocks up it can kill universes.

The issue is in part to "power levels" (I call it multiplication). Writers don't do a good enough job of conveying human life. All they can do is change numbers. The problem is, we as a society are becoming more ingrained to ignore bigger and bigger statistics and numbers and acts of terror. Villains need to be made more personal in part.

So back to time continuity, villains etc. A Joker who has killed 36 people over two years... but make it so Batman knows every single one of their names. Make it more personal. Make it matter more. Give more of a human connection to things.

>>82787340
So you're saying that if you kill the Joker and Mr. Zsasz, the rest of Gotham's criminals would decide they need to start randomly killing more people for no reason other than a quota?
That makes no sense.

And where the fuck do you get off demonizing me? Am i somehow one in the same with a murderer? Do you give a shit about animals killing one another to survive? Am i to just let people i love get hurt and wait on my ass till you can come in and play hero like a fucking ten year old? These shaming tactics are fucking expected, coming from a rich hippie liberal douche living in a gated mansion

>>82786848

"If you rape a clown, the number of clown rapists actually increases" - Commish Gordon

>>82787317

He did several times. Haven't you read Max 2? Played the game? Read PKMU ?

>>82787444
did he suceed? no? then shut the fuck up

>>82787465
Why don't you try killing him instead then? No? Then shut the fuck up

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>>82786848

>>82787444
I find it odd that he only gives up on big names when those are the kind of fish you usually don't want to let get away

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>>82787465

You are stupid and dumb beyond description. So here is something for your education

>>82787504
post more not canon works, retard

>>82787501
He did succeed in killing them in some stories. It's just that they happened in altetnate universes since Marvel isn't going to randomly off a well known IP permanently

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>>82787363
TOUGH LUCK FRANK

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>>82787512
Lie I said you are stupid and dumb beyond description. So here is something for your education.

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>>82786848
Batman is a little bitch , leave justice to Rei of the Gisei

>>82787482
fucking perfect

>>82787524
are you even trying retard?
what's next? Marvel Zombies?

>>82786848
That's why you kill multiple killers, then yourself.

>>82787519
Sometimes even a Frank is outfranked.

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>>82786848
"Let's go find two more."
-Colonel Chester Phillips

>>82786880
There is no such thing as innocence, only varying degrees of guilt.

>>82787556

Like I you are stupid and dumb beyond description. We proven Frank franked the Kingpin.

Not my fault your head is up your ass.

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What does Batman think of soldiers and combat veterans?

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>>82786848

>2 Killers
>One killer kills the other killer
>1 Killer left

????

>>82786912
are you saying that frank is a better batman than the real batman?

that makes sense.

>>82787636
Frank's plot armor rivals Batman's.

>>82787598
>franked

never mind I was talking to a redditor, "frank" yourself

>>82786848
Only if you kill one killer, if you kill more you are decreasing the number.

>>82786848
>batfag trying to be deep with his fucking shitty moral code
If you kill 2 then the number has already decreased by 1, faggot

What if a killer kills himself? Now you got -1 killers
Checkmate, Bats

>>82787598
Next you'll say Green Lanterns live in Star Trek universe.

>>82787321
Luthor pls

>>82786848
So? He's let so many people, including parents like his own, die to The Joker.
Batman is a piece of shit person and I would kill him if I saw him.

>>82787598
While absolutely mistaken, he still has a point because of the nature of comics. It's pretty silly that people try to apply "real world logic" to comic books because regardless of whether they kill or don't kill, the efforts of the hero is still a never ending war.

>Batman doesn't kill his villains
>They keep coming back to kill and pile up their death counts
>The population of Gotham still hasn't emptied out

>Punisher kills nameless mooks
>"nature abhors a vacuum" shit and there's STILL innumerable nameless mooks to kill

>Punisher kills named baddies
>editorial or some other event brings them back into existence

So really, if we take what's written in the OP at the level it's meant to be (i.e. a comicbook character talking about their shitty comic book universe) then it's absolutely right. Kill one, kill a hundred, it doesn't matter, the number still stays the same because big two comics aren't meant to have an ending.

>>82787706
I think that'd only apply if the comic book characters acknowledge they're in a comic book universe

But he killed Darkseid.

>>82787683
All DC heroes with a rouge gallery are guilty of that.

>>82787719
It also applies if the reader acknowledges that the one saying it is a comic book character.

>>82787720
Pretty sure the quote is fake anyway

>>82787730
Except for Flash for the most part. Barring some very extenuating circumstances, The Rogues no kill rule is practically iron clad.

someone has the panel where Superman says that a universe saved through murder is not worth saving?

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>>82786848
Yes. Batman is never wrong. I thought most people knew that already.

>>82787317
>If Frank wanted to do something that mattered he'd aim for Fisk or Osborn

He does and has, but maintaining the status quo is more important than good writing, and that means Frank can never succeed in killing anyone who'd make a difference.

With that outlook Batman could be prime minister of Canada

>>82786848
Is this even a real Batquote?

The obvious solution here is to have Joker etc. never kill anyone, just rob them and shit. Laughing gas is fine but make it non-lethal.

Now you have reasons for Batman to keep them alive beyond muh no kill rule.

>>82787706

>implying anything that happens in any fucking comic actually has an effect

But how many people have you saved?

I thought that'd what Batman cared about.

If you kill a killer then there's the same amount of killers but the amount of fucking people the killer has/will kill probably drastically decreases.

>>82787942
Can you not read at all? I flatly pointed out that they don't have any effect at all.

>>82787959
or they get killed by someone else

>>82787213
Easy there...let's not cause any trouble...we ain't hurtin nobody.

>>82786848
>if you kill a killer the number of killers in the world remains the same
>unless you are already a killer, and then keep killing killers
>over and over
>you know, that actually removes killers from the world
>but im a billionaire
>you think i ever count things?
>i pay people to do that
post the full quote faggot

>>82787959
That doesn't matter due to the flow of the narrative. In a fictional world no one dies nor are they saved unless the narrative says they died or were saved. The same thing applies to populations of settlements. They neither rise nor decline unless the narrative says otherwise. This is why through all the murders and calamities and other things that have happened to cities like Gotham and Metropolis, they still aren't a ghost town.

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>>82787085
That would be great. Superman's power and leadership backed by Batman's strategies and dirty tactics would be scary shit. Damn, now I want to read this.

>>82786906
So if you kill 3 killers, it only goes down by 1?

>>82788130
>3-1=1
Are you retarded?

>>82786848
>If you kill a killer, the number of killers in the world remains the same.

>There are 5 killers in the world.
>One of those 5 killers kills another one of those 5 killers.
>5 - 1 = 4
>There are now 4 killers in the world.

Nope, not even basic math can justify Batman's screwed up morals.

>>82786848

If you kill n killers, the number of killers in world drops by (n-1). Just make sure n is greater than 1 and you're fine.

>>82788193
>standard social morals
>screwed up morals

unless going around killing people and taking justice in your own hands is normal in your country

>>82788130
Thats not how n works.
This is some basic shit man...

>>82788262
No, it's not normal. Though I imagine it would be if there was an insane clown who murders thousands every time he inevitably escapes from the world's worst insane asylum.

Yes, because it doesn't take into account due process. Say, the one who was killed was a manipulative ass who had blackmailed the accused of commiting crimes. Is he guilty of those crimes because his family was being held hostage? Or, say the accused finally had enough and killed the blackmailer. But say the blackmailer was a paragon of society and no one would believe they would be capable of such a thing. The accused would look like he just killed an innocent man, even though he just got rid if one of the biggest stains on society. In fantasy, Punisher are awesome. In reality, like certain presidents on other countries, this does not work because innocents can be unknowingly killed without proper investigation.

>>82786876
This meme won't catch on faggot.

What if I killed myself after I killed joker?

>>82788348
Joker rises as Black Lantern.
And you were the only one who could stop him, anon!

>>82788348
Joker died two times already during Snyder's run and came back

My thoughts on the "just kill the joker" question, and I know that's probably a lot of stories that prove me wrong (under the red hood definitely does) but I like to think he's tried killing the joke man several times. But it just never worked. You might say it's worth an unlimited number of tries, but if you have literally got your hand at his throat, squeezing the life out and he still manages to weasel out of it after 7468478 attempts, you start questioning probabilities

>>82788419
>I like to think he's tried killing the joke man several times.

he did

>>82786848
casuals are so funny, they laugh about the Batman philosophy but if Batman kill mercenaries they whining about it ...

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>>82786848
is he fucking canadian?

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>>82786848
Batman, if you just raped Bruce Wayne, the number of crimes would go down and the criminals would stay in Arkham

>>82786871
Become the apex predator

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>>82787780

This is why non-canon runs will always be superior, not being tied down by future sales and audience expectation

>>82788532
So what if there wasn't another way? What if the villain said "Kill me or I will destroy the universe" and for whatever reason Supes was unable to stop him in a non-lethal way? Would he just let the entire universe die? Isn't that negligent omnicide?

>>82788532
That's just moronic.

>>82788605
but there is ALWAYS another way, anon

>>82786848
So the solution is to kill more than one?

Maybe, but the number of murder victims does go down, so it's worth it.

>>82788166
>>82788285
Fug, I read that wrong

>>82788772
It doesn't, by virtue of fictional universes and the power of narrative. It doesn't matter if you've managed to count Frank's 616 body count to equate the human population of earth, if the narrative says he's still killing bad guys and crime is still in the streets, then he has made 0 impact.

>>82787310

>Because Marvel is for ~~adults~~ tumblrites who want Whor and black cap

ftfy

>>82788819
You're an annoying killjoy and everyone dreads you showing up at parties.

>>82788772
Funnily enough a lot of research shows that punitive measures like the death penalty and the far less rigorous standards of shooting a guy in the face don't really cut back on crime. It just makes criminals more likely to kill because they know if they're caught they're dead.

Haven't tons of criminals Batmab faced already been sentenced to death by a court of law, and escaped to avoid their fates? Why should he feel guilty about killing those villains? How about people that are wanted by the federal government dead or alive?

>>82786848

Yeah, but when you kill the NEXT one...

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The problem is comics themselves

Between the entire bat family beating the ever loving shit out of criminals. Like breaking them sp they cam never move the same again levels of ass kicking.

Bruce Wayne spending billions to revitalize and refurbish Gotham with Jon's and entire new communities

This shit should've been largely taken care of if not atleast half taken care of

Give me a moment
I wish to recline in rage

How can you be a killer in a world where you know for sure heaven and hell exist? It's not ending someone's life, it's just helping people to get somewhere they deserve to be.

>>82788835
Whor must die.
Seriously, why isn't she dead yet?
Should she be dead from the cancer already? Mjolnir doesn't heal that shit.

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>>82787596

>>82786848
So Batman should kill a minimum of two killers at once to lower the count. I see nothing wrong with this.

>>82786848
Yes, but it's never been about lowering the number of killers, only the number of posible victims.

New52 Batman killed dr. Death by setting of a bomb durng zero year. Sure batman claims he could be saved with some medical attention but dr death refuses it. So Batman had indeed killed before.

Though batman killing dr death was probably meant as an homage to the golden age story.

>>82787643
Oh fuck you faggot. FRANK has franked fisk before

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>Everyone missing the point and austistically rambling on about math
>If you kill a bunch of people then you're making a difference

The point isn't about balancing some equation or making a difference. The point is you become a bad person, assclown.

>B-but muh Frank

How many people have become criminals because of The Punisher? Became criminals exclusively to fuck with him? He's a sick dog chasing his own tail and he knows it.

Killing people is the easiest solution. It's a cheap way out. The more you do it the more inclined you are to do it. The more inclined you are to take the easy route. The more you take the easy route the less of a person you become.

So yes, the fact of the matter is if you kill him you become just as bad as him. You're not an exception to the rules.

>>82789807

But what does it matter if YOU become just as bad? Losing the moral highground may suck for you, but if you stop a supervillain from killing thousands of people every week, things are certainly better for everyone else.

>>82786871

Boom. Battfleck is now justified.

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>>82788492
If you rape a killer, the number of rapists in the world goes up, Commissioner.

>>82789906

Because that means that the heroes that are self-righteous twats that can't consider the circumstances will come after you harder than they ever came against the mass-murdering supervillain, for some reason.

>>82789807
We get the point just fine, we're mocking the retarded 2deep phrasing.

>>82786871
My first thought exatcly.

The Shadow kills, how come we cheer when he does it?

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>>82786960
>Killing the goons
That is the problem. Instead of letting your anger and kung fu powers out on helpless henchmen who might just joined to feed their families the superheros should focous on bringing down the boss behind them.
Same with TV. Killing waves of henchmen but capturing the main baddie or you'll be as bad as him. No you asshole you are already worse

>>82786848
I think that a small amount of post 9/11 real world needs to put into this discussion. A not small part of batman's rogues gallery would be labeled terrorist. After getting that labeled the law enforcement focus stops beings arresting the subject and becomes stopping the subject. Also it is no longer a matter (mostly at lest) for local law enforcement. The FBI and homeland security take over.

The joker would be shot by them, and we all know it.