CalArts is the cancer killing Western animation

>>82652289
The funny thing about this meme is that without Calarts there wouldn't be 90% of western animation.

>>82652289
So how do you propose we remedy this situation?

>>82652289
And you're the cancer that's killing your family.

>inb4 300+ replies
Please keep your hands and feet inside the thread at all times. Enjoy the ride.

>>82652317

I can live with that. You say this like it's a bad thing, faggot.

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Why do we allow this shit to happen?

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>>82652326
Easy. We get rid of cartoons altogether.

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I'm so fucking sick of seeing cartoon with the same uninspired faces and expressions.

>>82652317
I refuse to believe CalArts is *really* the only school you can go to to get an animation career.

SVA? Gobelins? The other California schools? Just talent and an elite uni anywhere?

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John K was right, animation is fucked. Thanks Scott Pilgrim and Adventure Time you've destroyed a generation of artists with your napkin doodles.

>>82652392
Haha you don't get it. 90% of the GOOD stuff has its origin there.

>>82652459
You are saying schools from te other side of the ocean.

>>82652459

It's not that it's good, it's meant for networking and nothing else. Blame Walt Disney for that. He fucked over any sort of idea that animation can be for all ages and set a horrible staple that you need Calarts and nothing else.

>>82652517

Maybe if Calarts was not a thing we could have gotten something the blows whatever cartoons we have out of the water. But now that can never happen. But no keep sucking that overpriced hipster schools dick and enjoy the PC-tier cartoons on Cartoon Network.

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Give up your dreams of becoming an artist.

Time-tested good bait

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>>82652713

Then why don't you fucking leave and quit preaching to the choir if we're all mindless sheep with no hope of being saved by your pure, precious words that will undoubtedly fix all the sick problems of this unsalvageable world.

It may be shitty but damn, why even bother trying to save it?

>>82652603
>PC-tier cartoons on Cartoon Network.

ReBoot was great you fucking faggot.

>>82652603

>Maybe if Calarts was not a thing we could have gotten something the blows whatever cartoons we have out of the water. But now that can never happen.

And maybe and most probably it would be worse and you would still he crying your nigga ass here.

You can keep moaning for the sake of this meme made for bait tho.

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>>82652426
It's too late, we've already enter the era of flat line, amateurish art, bean mouth and blinding colors.

>>82652317
Nice try Kim Jung Il, but here in AMERICA we have a little thing called CAPITALISM so if Cal Arts suddenly disappeared every other university animation program would take up the slack and the world of animation would continue, and quite possibly improve.

>>82652289
I kinda like it.

Makes it feel like they could all belong in the same universe.

Of course, the animation styles and artwork is very different. But whatever.

>>82652782
Why was my post deleted but this stays?

>>82652642
Old Men

Warning

Old Men

>>82652558
I would buy that, but there *have* been a lot of people who got in from other places. For years, a lot of writers/executives on the more adult-centered shows came from just really elite schools that have fuck-all to do with arts or film; Brown, Berkeley, Tulane, Georgetown. There are a *shitton* of Simpsons writers who started off writing for the Harvard comedy magazine. Hell, Matt and Trey went to a state school in Colorado.

The CalArts meme only seems to be a thing with shows aimed explicitly at children. I wouldn't be surprised if decades ago Disney set up a secret agreement to artificially hire from there more than anywhere else, and that it's still somewhat in-effect today. Disney'd be the sort of guy to do that.

>>82653096
SImpsons writers went other places, yeah, but they had fuck-all to do with the animation and actual look of the show.

If you look up the guys responsible for the original shorts and I think some of the directors, there are some CalArts graduates among them.

>>82653096
Nigga Calarts was literally build by Disney to trai their staff. Obviously they hire a lot from there.

>>82652317

"and nothing of value was lost"

This meme died months ago. See you at page 10

>>82652642

is that true? men, that pretty sad. That could explain why some "amateur" artists on the internet had better knowledge in anatomy, perspective and movement than a "professional artist"

>>82653018

because mods are fags

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>>82652289
>It's another "DUDE FUCK CALARTS LMAO" thread.
You people are retards who uses fanart of /v/idya as "evidence" for how CalArts is killing the industry.

The problem with those is not that they look broadly similar, the problem is that they look like shit.

The audiences are somewhat to blame. They're the ones who eat whatever garbage that's put in front of them. AT? 7 Seasons and merch flies off the shelf. RS? Same deal to a lesser extent. Steven Universe? "Ooh I like pretty colors!".

What incentive does ANY network have to spend 2-5x on production costs for something that won't give them 5x the return? It's a business. Noodle-armed doodles are cheap and sell just as well if not better than everything else on the market.

If you want animation that looks good and has a possibility of actually being greenlit... Go to Europe. There is no market for it in America. Literally none whatsoever. That guy who made The Thief and the Cobbler spent 30 years of his life trying to bring his vision of a beautifully hand-drawn feature length film to life. Guess what? Nobody cared about it and it was a historic flop.

You don't think executives take notice of that? Good animation in America is a pipe dream. Don't fall for it.

>>82654269
Is this copypasta, or just insipid enough to be copypasta?

>>82654269
Regarding Thief and the Cobbler, Disney and other studios released commercially successful, high framerate hand-drawn animation for decades.

>>82654381
And how many still do?

Traditional animation in America is dead. Go overseas if that's your passion. You're wasting your time in the states.

>>82654455
TatC was released in the early 90s, before 3D animation.

>>82654481
The point is that audiences don't clamor for well-drawn animation. The market isn't there. People, by and large, simply don't care.

You know what the Secret of Kells grossed at the box-office? Take a guess.

Good animation is dead because it's more expensive, more time consuming, and there isn't a compensatory return for that money & effort expended.

>>82654833
Yes things are different today, but TatC was released when 2D animation was still king, so its failure can't be explained by people not wanting 2D animation.

2D animation isn't more expensive than 3D though, it's actually cheaper. 2D most likely died off because people liked 3D better. 3D is also a lot more flexible to create and doesn't require the excessively specialized skillsets of 2D animators.

Secret of Kells looks like some arthouse abortion so if it wasn't a success then I don't find it surprising.

>>82654269
TaTC didn't do well because Richard Williams couldn't reach any of the deadlines and blew all of the budget. Another studio had to finish it using limited animation, so the released version was rushed and they ended up cutting out a lot of scenes that Williams did.

That, and a lot of meddling was involved. Tack and the Thief wasn't supposed to speak but the executives - or producers, dont remember which - thought a younger audience wouldnt be interested in mute characters. That, and they added songs to the movie because musicals were important at the time.

That, and the story wasn't that interested anyways. Visually, it looks like a masterpiece but the story is boring.

>>82653063
Old Men

Are the Future

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>>82652289
If western animators are so lazy, why don't they just animate stickfigures? It would save time and money since know one wants to draw or write complex stories...

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>>82656163
They're already scraping the bottom of the character design barrel.

>>82652447
Can't we just import from Canada? They have good cartoons.

>>82652459
its not. but everyone in the industry went there, and if you haven't noticed, every fucking animator (with a successful show) knows eachother to some degree. going there is like your in to any animation studio because elitist motherfuckers.

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>There are people in this thread RIGHT NOW that thinks that style is in any way related to CalArts.

>>82652317
good

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>>82652289
But Hanna Barbera was built on using the same character designs over and over again

>>82652961
>He doesn't know
Americans don't do anything. All jobs in every sector is outsourced, when the stilts of foreign specialists move back to their own countries to build their own business and franchises, America's own top tier will be too old to work and the youth (you) that has no skill or experience doing anything, will make America free fall into a third world country.

Then when welfare cuts off and unleashes the black panhandlers, it's game over.

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>>82652957
>those eyes
>that hair
,those smiles

>>82652509

Then maybe he should DO something about it instead of whining all the time. Oh wait he can't finish a ten minute cartoon in three years...

Here's my answer to the entire thread:

Make something better.

>>82652957

Did they just do a lot of LSD between the first and second pics?

Wait, so like Gumball and Star came from the same place? I thought they were completely independent studios, in different countries even

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>my dream is to be a storyboard artist one day
>can't afford calarts
>i don't even live in us
should i give up ?

>>82652289
Why is that image so off-model?

It's always a laugh when people who don't know a lick about drawing act like they know absolutely everything about the industry based on secondhand, biased information given by other people who know nothing of the industry

And you guys shit on tumblr for being an echo chamber

>>82657442
Rebecca Sugar didn't go to CalArts, and she's got her own cartoon.

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>>82657093
Just fucking slit your wrist at this point m8 you think you're being helpfull or making a point here ? Entire organised teams of animators and a shitload of other whateverthefuckors have been working on those cartoon for monthes, OP's point is that they're being unoriginal fucks with their standard "bigface and smile" crap. And it's true, as the gif he posted shows. We're not discussing the quality of these shows, just the unoriginality the animators come up with.

For fucks safe, this crap isn't remotely realist and the "all smiley all the time" is even less realistic. We live in a world of bitch ass gloomy fucks and these cartoons are deviating us from reality with their over mellow and sparkly estethics.

So keep your "hurr maek somfin better :DDD" deeply sealed in that dusty beer bottle that ls your mind and try not to open it up without thinking and actually trying to see what the problem is next time.

>they only have 4 fucking teeth

>>82657657
She went to SVA which is just as expensive.

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>>82657709
not op but seriously making something is the only way to actually fix this shit.

break into the industry or make some shity pandery short film shit on the internet.suck up to some cartoon guys or high ranking guys if you're desperate or something.
hell, there are some studios that let you pitch shows to them regardless of who you are. Can't remember if it was CN or Nick, but they would have fucking janitors pitch shows.

if you look at the majority of show runners the only reason they got their shit shows was because they fucking made something that was "good" on their own. I can name several shorts off the back of my hand that spawned long running cartoons made by a single person for their college thesis or something.
So yeah, go make something on your fucking own. You don't need a fucking studio or team of people to do it. You're just fucking lazy.

>>82657035
but muh 90s...

>>82657838
It just aint my fucking concern.

I'm against the normalization of society by certain big companies that impose their styles on the market. I got my own art to worry about too and it's got nothing to do with cartoons or comics, for that matter.

And eh, it's fucking easy to blame me for being a lazyass when you're the same.

>>82657951
Everything you said proves my point.
I'm really not being lazy because I actually am trying to do things. It's easy to assume I'm not doing anything because we're all anonymous, but what I'm saying is honestly true because I have a foot in this industry and kind of get how things work to an extent. You have to work for shit to get shit.

>>82657951
That and shit if its none of your concern then why are you fucking wound up over children's cartoons being too happy you edgy shit

>>82658453
I absolutely agree with you
You gotta be the change you want to see, it isn't good enough to complain, you gotta use your work as an outlet for creating the stuff opposite what you're complaining about and then get that shit out there

>>82652289
nice meme

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But Rebecca Sugar went to SVA.

And the guy behind gumball is a euro.

And the people doing the PPG reboot aren't from calarts, they're just random people from the internet.

>>82652317
3d animation would still survive through some Florida schools

>>82652289

...and we cannot do a thing about it.

Kill me.

>>82652289
That gif literally shows every single facial feature changing from one character to the next, including the mouth itself. It's essentially doing its best to prove the characters are different.

>>82656249
If the problem is the number of fingers, AT's style guide explicitly states it can change depending on the situation. Is this an actual issue?

>>82657035
>one company's signature style vs a variety of studios
yeah ok grasp harder

>>82659075
The problem is that he looks like something quickly thrown together in Paint by an amateur.

And he does have five fingers in that.

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The implication being that Gumball's artstyle suffers from sameface and is lacking in the creative department.

I am so fucking confused right now.

>>82659136
Not really, his design is simple, instantly recognizable from a distance and has volume
Most people who use paint don't even know what volume is

>>82659368
Theoretical design considerations like that don't count for anything if the design looks like crap.

>>82652289
Stupid Network owners and Focus groups killed animation

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>>82658867
B-but muh calarts boogeymen...
W-who else can i b-blame for similar artstyles?

>>82657039
So what happens when the Americans go overseas to learn like the foreigners did?

>>82659593
>W-who else can i b-blame for similar artstyles?
You could try Tumblr? That's the other hot new bogeyman.

blindly copying what is successful and "trendy" instead of trying to have your own identity to your show is the cancer killing creativity and the animation industry in general.

if people copying the calart style is killing animation, calart is guilty only of being successful.

>>82652642
the only thing art school teaches you is how to keep drawing, and is supposed to offer your advice on the matter. You can accomplish the same thing on your own, though it will be a much slower progress.

you can still be an artist, just dont expect to become one through art schools like that.

>>82659374
what are you trying to say here, Anon?

>>82652289
1. Gumball's creator didn't go to CalArts
2. Neither did SU's creator
3. If you don't like CalArts cartoons, I have an idea. Don't watch them
4. CalArts isn't killing cartoons. It's people like you
Now do 4chan and society and favor OP and go play in traffic

Its almost as if all of those shows have different stories and settings

>>82659728
No, no, those guys always get the blame.

Let's try with pandering to things I don't like, how does that work? Huh?

Sorry, I just can't imagine that the reason why OP keeps making these threads isn't because of cartoons not being what he likes[/spoilers]

>>82660180

It's nostalgiafags.

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>>82658867
>inb4 "Just because they didn't go there doesn't mean they aren't using it's style" response.

Seriously, I am so fucking done with this CalArts meme. It's like these fucks have no idea what they're talking about anymore nor did they ever.

>>82660039
>4. CalArts isn't killing cartoons. It's people like you
What does that even mean?

>>82659735
True.

Think of how many people in the 90's tried to mimic Ren & Stimpy.

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>>82656488
>Canada
>The country that brought us stuff like Johnny Test due to Laws
>Not the French

>>82657035
The point of H-B was to revive animation as a whole. Before TV was dominant, theatrical shorts were animation's big break, where toons had bigger budgets and larger time frames for release.
Then TV came, and those beautifully made mgm shorts were just too expensive.
Animation came to a halt for some time, until H-B figured out a way to bring costs and production times down - recycling drawn cels.

So the entire point of H-B was to make cheaper cartoons at the expense of animation and art quality. It wasn't ever meant to look exceptionally good.

>>82653462
But there wouldn't be a /co/.

>>82659124
Most of those are CN studios though.

>>82652289
>The creator of Uncle Grandpa went to CalArts.
>This is never brought up.
>But some how Gumball and SU are CalArts cartoons.
Explain this.

>>82652436
What the fuck are you gonna do about it?

>>82654077
Not really.

>>82657269
Their animation most likely does, from somewhere in Korea
Some of the only cartoons that aren't made in Korea are the Simpsons (first in Klasky-Csupo then Film Roman, both american companies) and Wander (as Craig said, somewhere in Ireland)

>>82659124
>muh style
Hannah Barbara was stiff and lazy.

>>82658978
Gladly you whiny faggot.

>>82657579
To prove a point.

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>>82660780
This is from a 150+ episode anime series from the early 90s, so nothing high end or digital. Still massively better than Adventure Time.

>>82660900
Oh wait we weren't talking about AT, I was getting things mixed up. Well the point applies to everything else just the same.

>>82660900
Eh, there are better looking anime from the 90s.

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>>82660671
Good.

Maybe that way I'd get the motivation to go out and live my life.

>>82660979
I deliberately chose something low end and pre-digital.

>>82660900
>>82660979
the anime is from the 80s

>>82661116
It started at the end of 1989 and ran for several years.

>>82660744
People don't do research. They see the meme and how it talks about cal arts and gives them something to get mad at because cartoons of today don't appeal to them.

That's all

>>82657579
It's not.

>>82661276
It is. The characters look really off, especially Steven.

i took cn/nickelodeon's classic shows for granted when i was a kid and didn't truly appreciate them for what they really were, now i'm stuck with recycled art styles and plots whenever i turn on my tv, where did we go wrong guys?

>>82661276
Only Clarence and star look “on model"
Steven looks a bit off and dipper is just fucked

>>82660900
>>82660961
How is it better exactly?

>>82660900
>muh anime vs cartoons

>>82661339
You grew up and cartoons stopped speaking to you.
Get over it.

>>82661361
Is it really not obvious? It's substantially more detailed and real-looking (by which I mean it feels real, and not that it seems like real life).

>>82661394
I am just saying the designs are crap and even a pre-digital 150+ episode half hour long show had better ones. I'm sure you can also come up with American shows with much better designs.

>>82661454
*stopped appealing to you.

>>82661470
>It's substantially more detailed and real-looking (by which I mean it feels real, and not that it seems like real life).
?

All these post-Adventure time shows seem to have the same designs, especially in regards to characters. All these simplistic meme-like expressions and the semi-round head that bulges slightly one one side.

I remember when cartoons all had unique designs to them. EEnE looked different than PPG which looked different than Johnny Bravo which looked different than Dexters lab.

>>82661520
How are the expressions meme like.

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>>82661495
>?
Really? Really now?

>>82661495
>>82661545
Just because something looks realistic doesn't mean it's better artistically.

>>82661520
PPG JB and DL didn't look that different. Back then most cartoons had that same blocky look with thick outlines. I'll give you EEnE tho, probably because it made in Canada outside of CN. Same with Courage.

>>82661520
>I remember when cartoons all had unique designs to them. EEnE looked different than PPG which looked different than Johnny Bravo which looked different than Dexters lab.
Only EEnE looked different and that's because it was from Canada. DL and PPG look like they could take place in the same universe. Heck, as a kid I thought they were in the same universe.

>>82661582
I also said it's more detailed, and I didn't say "realistic." I said:
>real-looking (by which I mean it feels real, and not that it seems like real life)
You really need to have some condition to think that AT's design looks better than Ranma's, or a childishly underdeveloped visual sense.

>>82661634
Again, just because it's more realistic or detailed doesn't automatically make it better artistically. There are things to take into like animation.

Why is this so hard to understand?

>>82661634
>You really need to have some condition to think that AT's design looks better than Ranma's, or a childishly underdeveloped visual sense.
When did I ever imply that?

>>82661582
>>82661668
>animated characters with backgrounds and shading can't be artistically better than flat colored animated napkin doodles

come on now

>>82652642
As much as I respect Richard Williams, he should know by now that there is a huge difference between art school and animation school. Everyone should know at this point that modern art is a huge fucking joke.
Yes, pursuing fine arts is not a profitable career-wise and hasn't been in a very long time but fine art isn't dead and still remains an integral part of a successful animation education and career.

There are plenty of places around that make hammering in fine art fundamentals mandatory before let you anywhere near a computer with Maya or ZBrush.
Hell, the school I go to doesn't even dick around with shitty general ed courses, they just get straight to drawing. They can't offer you a bachelors but you sure as shit will land a place in the industry after 2 or 3 years with them.

>>82661668
It is better artistically in much the same way that an average landscape painting is better than a child's crayon drawing.

And as far as animation goes, these shows are not winners in that department either. Part of the reason is their simplistic character designs.

>>82661691
Then what are you implying?

>>82661593
But they all didn't share the same head shape like modern shows do!

>>82661706
>>82661743
Why are you comparing anime designs to cartoon designs anyway?

>>82661764
i did not compare anime vs cartoon designs, i only stated that shows with detailed backgrounds and shading are better looking than the ones who lack of it, therefore making them artistically better even if the plot is not better than the latter

>>82660439
I don't understand the use of "like" in your last sentence, "that" is the correct word in this case.

>>82652326
establish a new series with its own art style and identity and have it gain more popularity and profitability than the current trend.

>>82662027
But then that show will end up dictating what the new norm of cartoon art shall be, and muh cartoons will not evolve!

...even though there are already too many differences in current cartoons, outside the fact that there aren't full action cartoons, and I fear this is why people here are mad about the supposed Cal-Art style.

>>82662254
art has always moved in trends, its the ones setting the new norm that ARE the evolution of the medium.

Nobody addressing a gap in whats on offer is an issue though, but I think that has more to do with budgeting than with art styles. Similarly we barely see any real slaptick anymore.

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>>82652457
the shading looks cool.
>it's a promotional banner.
oh wait a minute..

>>82662292
It can't be a budget issue. They already spend so much time and money on even half-length episodes, and outsource to Korea.

>>82652289
*rolls eyes*

ugh, could you like, just.... ugh I cant even right now, I mean, could you just, like........ NOT??? ugh

>>82662439
go back to tumblr

>>82662545
woosh

>>82661520

That's nostalgia clouding your brain.

EEnE was an exception because it was done by a different studio.

>>82659759
yeah no. good luck learning gobelin level of animation in your garage with pirated software and printer paper.
The school give you access to knowledge, but also professional tool, organization, actual professional advices that aren't "read more loomis" and simply how to work together and get the better of everyone.
Self taught people mix horribly with pros because they don't even know the lingo of the job.

>>82660671

>French Comics
>French Animation
>Belgian comics
>Korean animation
>Canadian Animation
>CAnadian comics

we will be ok

>>82662653
Does anybody like western animation anymore?

>>82661582
>artistically
Define that word right now. Hope you got lube cause you are going to get sore.

>>82662386
pay half a million for a half episode or a full million on a dialog focussed show or spend one and a half on a slapstick one.

>>82662652
Teaching people lingo and such is a lot easier than teaching them how to animate. And someone's who's self-taught themselves to pro level probably knows some stuff already.

>>82662292

>Nobody addressing a gap in whats on offer is an issue though

shows like gumball are but people pretend that they don't exist.

>>82662681

fyi western animation isn't merican animation

>>82662751
anime can work with 100k per episode, granted it's the crap ones but if you gave them 500k per episode you'd enter OAV territory in term of quality. There's no excuse for the current American animation to be either so expensive or so ugly. the money pipeline is fueling more suit swimming pools than actual animator daily rice bowls.

>>82662652
all teachers do is contextualize whats in the books and provide hands-on examples. You CAN learn all of it on your own, but its going to take a lot longer.
And nobody ever learned how to do everything on regular-ass paper with the same tools over and over, part of learning is using other tools and materials. But you dont need a school to buy an ezel and paint, or charcoal or wood to carve.

The construct and discipline that comes with schooling help you get a lot better a lot faster. But you can get there on your own strength *eventually*
also, nobody said art was cheap.

>>82662810
Does anyone like American cartoons then?

>>82662814
anime is generally animated with a much lower framecount. Animator wages are also a lot lower.

most of the issues I have with modern western animation is mainly that the movements are incredibly poorly planned out ahead of time most of the time. That has more to do with the competency of the keyframers and storyboarders though. The actual animation is usually fine from a technical standpoint, but boring.

>>82662795
is gumball a real action show?

>>82662814

Anime is stiffer unless it's high budget or an action scene. Animation is about movement, people forget about that. It's fine to prefer stiffer movement in exchange for more detailed frames, but don't pretend like it's objectively better.

>>82662844

they were the creators of modern animation

we appreciate your efforts and knowledge developing this complex art but you are doing shit nowadays

I blame capitalism

>>82662848
There are less drawings, but they are ridiculously higher quality and thus take longer to draw.

Wages are lower, but American shows aren't animated domestically and have budgets three to five times higher, or even over ten times higher in the case of something like The Simpsons.

>>82662883
The movement you get in shows like Steven Universe is garbo, and there's no value in simply having it. Fewer but high quality drawings, good backgrounds and interesting cinematography are much better.

>>82652289
I'm pretty sure it's the fans. Investment is placed where the money comes from.

>>82663102

>there's no value in having more fluid animation

dumbest thing i've ever read on /co/

>>82662923
So, American cartoons are the laughingstock of the animation world.

>>82663199
You didn't read it on /co/, because nobody said it. I said:
>The movement you get in shows like Steven Universe is garbo, and there's no value in simply having it.
The animation is there, but so what? It doesn't look any good.

>>82652957
This is so sad, left one was very cute

>>82663350
It's just one pic.

>>82663241

the funnier part is that they were the creators and pioneers on the field

damn, even Japan animation took roots from Disney

it's a shame how mericans devolve something so bad. Disney, Dreamworks, they still do cool shit but mostly movies (where budgets can go to the millions)

>>82652957
the left is so cute. This is tragic as fuck

>>82663576
But I thought American cartoons had fanbases outside the US.

>>82663577
How? As it was pointed out:
>>82663387

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>>82657442
make a blog/twitter/portfolio to post your best drawings. Sign up for LinkedIn, find some professionals and show your work to them. Make connections/friends with people in the industry.

Shit there are people from Japan, or Korea going to Calarts to accomplish their dreams to work in the industry, and you're whining about not living in the US.

If you really want to accomplish your dream, you have to work towards it, and not be afraid to take risks otherwise i'd suggest you look for something else because you clearly don't have the passion if you're going to give up because of that.

>>82663769
But what's the point? Animation is fucked.

>>82663769
Why in the hell would anyone from Japan go to Calarts?

>>82663809
I don't know, but it happens man.
They probably want to work in the American industry, because the Japanese animation industry is cruel as hell

>>82663836
(cont'd)not like there's much of a difference, but at least American animators don't die because of the stress of their jobs trying to make an episode in a week.

>>82663836
>>82663868
There's nothing for them to do in America.

Not every animation shop in Japan is the same, and there are also people producing independent animation.

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>>82652289
>same bait thread that's been spammed here for months
>should be fucking obvious to everyone by now
>already over 150 replies
>none of them for sage-bombing it off the damned catalog
Goddamn /co/, what the fuck happened to you

>>82657442
>>82657830
There have been a few people that make it. I cant imagine it was easy, but they found a way. In zukes case I think she a webcomic that showcased her writing and a bunch of fanart that showed off her style.

http://superfunkysushimonkey.tumblr.com/post/101066317100/laurenzuke-ive-been-getting-the-question-of-how

>>82664166
She is the cancer killing animation.

>>82657442
making connections and having a strong portfolio is more important than a diploma.

>>82664539
What if you have the skill but you don't have the ability to manage and market yourself?

>>82662653
Canadian animation's kinda iffy though? But that might be because a lot of their cartoons exported to the US aren't very good

>>82664611
if you don't have the basic skills to post your drawings online and leave contact info, then getting into the industry isn't for you

>>82661339
Nig, try watching those shows nowadays
Like, REALLY watching them
The animation is awful 80% of the time, which I can forgive because television animation budgets have never been anything special

>>82662814
>it's OK to work animators at slave wages on unrealistic schedule ls because I get to see pretty animation afterward

Their production methods aren't the norm for a reason, anon

>>82663809
>>82663907
there's a student from Japan there already and a ton from Korea. Why does it fucking matter.
most of them come for feature stuff because Japan Disney films are ridiculously popular over there and don't make CG theatrical films on the same level as American studios.

>>82665382
>le slave wage meme
American animation has massive budgets compared to anime, much longer production schedules, often only half the runtime. And the meat and potatoes of the animation production is outsourced to Korea.

>>82665390
Maybe it makes sense if you want to get into 3D animation, but for 2D it's absurd.

>>82663295

some animation is better than no animation. i don't watch animation to see a slideshow.

>>82665689
Anime doesn't have "no animation" or "a slideshow."

>>82665185
There is more too it than that. Not unless you have truly amazing skill and don't need to manage or market yourself well. Getting a degree helps with the managing and marketing. The same applies to most fields in varying degrees.

>>82665723

Animation is movement.

>>82665831
Thank you, Captain Obvious.

How do we fix western animation, /co/?

>>82664166
can't juke the Zuke anon

fuck off

>>82665665
Slapping "meme" at the end of something doesn't make it any less of a real problem
That's like saying "Le Foxconn meme" or "Le Monsanto meme"
What you should be worried about is where the profits from the overpriced merchandise are going, why everyone in production is being underpaid, and why so many corners have to be cut

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>>82652326
We whine about it on 4chan, demanding that animators start catering to our desires and pushing the hyperbolic idea that any who don't do as we say are SLAUGHTERING the industry and ruining animation for the rest of us.

What else can we do? Become artists ourselves? Make the change we expect from everyone else? HAHAHAHA, don't be ridiculous. Instead we'll make up excuses not to learn ourselves, blaming our incompetence on everyone else and ultimately justify with our pitiful inability that whining to each other is the only thing we can do.

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lmoa

>>82664166
Being one of the best current storyboarders on the show she's a clear example that It doesn't matter where you study, what matters is how much talent you have

>>82665257
Ed Edd n Eddy had great animation though

>>82666187
>even a gorilla can have a succesful career at cn

what's your excuse anon?

>>82666103
The best part is the ultimate thing being complained about is essentially "things in cartoons I don't like :(" but because /v/ tier memesters can't be satisfied with that, we make up some stupid ass meme about it that doesn't even hit actual problems in the animation industry (the lack of diversity in genre for most animation, the absolute refusal to recognize it as a legitimate art form for adults in the States, how companies ultimately just view properties as a product and nothing more and how they sell said products, the dying state of televised animation in an era where tv is just simply becoming more and more irrelevant, fucking EVERYTHING about the anime industry and how it operates) just "these kids cartoons do not cater to me and i dont like them :("

>>82666322
I'm not only black but also latino

>>82666097
People don't actually give a shit how much animators are paid and what their hours are like, it's just another thing to bitch about. Comparing this to Foxxcon is wrong, because a job at Foxxcon is something you do to survive, whereas animation in Japan is not like that. It's something people choose to do because they are interested in animation.

>why so many corners have to be cut
It's because we live in the real world and not in some idealized one where animation production has infinite time and money. All American animation "cuts corners" too, it just cuts different ones and more of them. Show me where in the world you can find better animation than in Japan.

why is everything so simply and crudely drawn nowadays?
I would rather have badly animated better drawn stuff than that orange thing with the limbs coming out of the head >>82659159

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>>82666322
You managed to hurt my sides a bit

>>82652457
>>82662320
>control not even wired in.
>lighting is weird

This is Nu-PPG tier

>>82652457
>Lvzv

>>82666396
>Show me where in the world you can find better animation than in Japan.

Almost every part of Europe. Fuck, even early Russian animation can blow the water out of most anime currently out (with a few exceptions) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8jN0oOvYi0

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when did western cartoons stop trying at drawing characters in a moderately reallistic way?

>>82661495
Same face is strong.

I hate same clothes in cartoon. It's garbage trend that should've died long ago.

>>82666517
>Russians
>beating anyone

>>82666517
>Almost every part of Europe.
Ahaha, no.

>Fuck, even early Russian animation can blow the water out of most anime currently out
Because it has more frames per second? There is lots more to animation than that.

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>>82652377
I'll be honest, somehow I thought the thread would have been deleted before 100 replies.
This is honestly getting ridiculous.

>>82666537
When they realized it was harder for the koreans/japs/whatever to animate and cost more.

>>82666537
Noodle arms are faster, easier and cheaper.

>>82666633
Hey, it's bound to happen some time. Maybe not in Eurovision though.

>>82666636
>Because it has more frames per second?

Well that and the use of shading, color, design, camera/perspective angling, and just general cinematic language that all contribute to it and a lot of anime lack. But of course, it doesn't seem like you're willing to even give it a look, you're just here to push your /a/ shitposting and nothing more. Your loss, I suppose.

>>82666845
>Well that and the use of shading, color, design, camera/perspective angling, and just general cinematic language that all contribute to it and a lot of anime lack.
Anime has used nearly every cinematic technique there exists, and is often very pointedly cinematic by simulating a physical camera (swaying, focus errors, drops on the lens, different lens types, camera cannot be placed where a real camera couldn't).

There is such a huge amount of anime in so many genres about so many topics by so many creators that anime has done just about everything there is to do.

>>82666060
The only realistic option I see is releasing animation independently on the web and/or on video, and turning that into a bigger industry over time. And by animation I mean good animation, not newgrounds shit.

>>82666396
>People don't actually give a shit how much animators are paid and what their hours are like
As someone looking to join the industry, yes, I very much do care
You might not care because you're just a consumer

>>82666319
>80%

>>82666060
Bring back a western action block. Hell since a big part of why animation is dead is because hiatus and the internet being what killed television. Just upload that shit on a website like nick did with korra

>>82667891
Oh you're right. How could I have forgotten about the many, many Westerners looking to join the anime industry.

>>82667982
Also I didn't say *I* don't care, I said other people don't care.

>>82667982
I mean...dubs exist for a reason anon.

>>82667982
I can care about animation industries outside of the country I plan on working in
Its called having perspective

>>82659124
It's not grasping at straws, it's cherry-picking.
There's a difference.
OP's pic is an example of cherry-picking too.

>>82668032
What do dubs have to do with this?

>>82668072
Why are you telling me this? Do you think my post was addressed specifically at you or something?

>>82668122
Would it make you more comfortable if I changed every "I" into "someone?"
Do you just not want to have a conversation? Because it seems responses make you uncomfortable

>>82668244
>Do you just not want to have a conversation?
What is there to have a conversation about?

>Because it seems responses make you uncomfortable
...

What?

Why is this thread still going? We know the OP is an idiot.

>>82666396
see
>>82662883

>>82669470
I already replied to that.

>>82669655
>not bothering to draw every individual tooth
HACKS, I TELL YOU

>>82657086
>>82657093
>>82657587
>>82657838
>>82658453
Well, since this was said in a asshole asking way, and to all other assfucks coming in "Calarts/nuPPG" type of threads saying this hypocritical shit;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9dZrInV9hM
There. In one fucking MONTH, this solo artist did this in it's original art style, without any fucking abysmal amount of shit errors and without using the "Calarts" art style. You, haven't, done what this person did, so while you're "being God's words of light" to people complaining about something that's the damn truth, kindly, and forever do so, fuck off.
>>82658467
And yet your here, complaining about some random ass on 4chan complaining. If you all want to "make a point" do so without being all fucking hypocrites.

Someone post the the ironic counter-picture with only Hanna-Barbera cartoons.

>>82660900
>Massively better
>Their noses are like weird muppet buttons
>Those poorly painted backgrounds

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>>82652457
>one of the controllers has a wire going directly into the table
>one has no wire
>those fucking putrid faces
you have no idea how hard i want this to die on arrival

>>82652289
It’s not CalArts, it’s cartoons emulating the superficial “art style“ of the current trend instead of developing drawing fundamentals.

I mean seriously where are the good drawings?

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Y'all are so fucking stupid.

Actually look at Calarts's student work and you'll see that virtually NONE of it looks the same as each other's or anything on television.

Stop sticking your head in your ass and check these out.

https://vimeo.com/channels/calartscharanimfilms2016

Lots of hardworking students like these don't deserve your hate.

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>that unpopular opinion that today's style > 90s 'everything is cut out and thick lines with some 70s retro thrown in' or 'klaspy shaking hand'

>>82665382
it's literally their job. Literally.

>>82662883
>Anime is stiffer
nothing is more stiff than american flash tween. just because you use oval for the eyes and banana for the mouth doesn't mean it's suddenly smooth like butter.

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>>82662883
>Anime is stiffer

watch more anime.

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The fact that these threads always end up as East vs West debates implies an inherent inferiority complex among western animation fans.
Honestly I'm certain these threads only thrive because people enjoy comparing western cartoons to anime.

Anime is better, and not just because of the stuff like Sakuga. Anime attempts to do stuff the west would only ever attempt in films. There is more freedom in anime, then in the majority of western visual entertainment.

>>82670597
Why did you quote the John K one, he's absolutely right. Motherfucker had a kickstarter and everything and we've seen jack shit in three years.

Fuck John.

>>82672293
John K's art is ugly, and his personality is shitty, and his cartoons arnt funny. I dont see why it ever got popular past the stoner 'lol boobs lol penis' crowd.

>>82672652
Ren and Stimpy was pretty great and like Adventure Time it was purely a product of one man's style that was able to make the transition to a marketable product pretty well. People liked it cause it was unique, but then everyone wanted to be Ren and Stimpy just like everyone wants to be Adventure Time.

Everything he did after getting the boot from Ren and Stimpy though has never achieved the same caliber of quality/style as it did and its really becoming apparent that he could have also just been a guy who got a lucky break and squandered it. Badly. His most recent works were those awful looking Simpsons couch gags and some straight up trash looking stuff for a Miley Cyrus tour.

So, someone explain to me, since I'm not the sort to stay informed of the animation industry and all its problems and in-and-outs and whatnot:

Why does Japanese animation so strongly prefer lower frames with higher detail, and why does the west seem to have this preference in reverse? Why isn't there an even spread on both ends?

Why is there such a strong preference for episodic content in the west, and serialized content in Japan? The common practice in anime seems to be to come up with a story, plan for how it ends and/or how long it will last, follow through, and then move on to something else, whereas in the west, it's to think of an interesting premise and then carry on with it until it's no longer worth doing. Why?

If this anime "wage meme", or whatever you call it, is to be believed, and conditions are so much more favourable in other countries, then why hasn't any other country stepped in and completely supplanted the Japanese industry in terms of sheer quality and quantity of animated works? Why doesn't the west take advantage of its apparently superior conditions and fill every niche it can? How is Japan not losing animators and customers to other countries hand over fist? Is weaboo/otaku money just more trouble than it's worth for every country other than Japan?

>>82672947
John K is a legitimately talented animator, but he's also a bit of a caustic prick on even the best of days, and he's notorious for being hard to work with. Something like an animated series on a major network requires a lot of input from a lot of people, and though Ren and Stimpy had his vision behind it, he didn't do all the writing, direction, and animation himself. Everyone working on that show was talented; if it wasn't, the show wouldn't have gone on for three seasons without him.

The sad truth is, those eighteen episodes he helped make are excellent television, but fanboys of him tend to make them out to be like the product of Chuck Jones and Hayao Miyazaki on six pounds of cocaine, and they just aren't. They've taken K's knowledge about animation and disdain for the wider industry and somehow leveraged it into him being the Savior of the Medium.

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>>82652957

>>82666291
>best current storyboarders

What makes her one of the best?

>>82673190
>Why does Japanese animation so strongly prefer lower frames with higher detail
Anime has lower budgets so they've been working with limited drawing counts for a very long time to the point where they're comfortable with limited animation. Designs tend to be manga-derived or inspired so normally they're not as animation-friendly as western designs either, even if they have already been simplified for animation.

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Rebecca Sugar did not go to calarts. Its just that people have to simplify their style to fit a cable tv budget.

>>82674701
She simplified it herself

>>82674701
>cable tv budget.
more like 'simplify it to korea doesnt fuck it up or canada can tween the shit out of it'

also unions ruined American Animation.

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>>82674773
Well yeah cause it was easier to animate. I can't see CN picking up something like Pug Davis in this day and age.

>>82652289
You say Calarts but who????
The teachers???
The students???
Whose fault is it directly?

>>82674892
Unions also stop CEOs from screwing over workers or have you not noticed the decline in real wages after Reagan screwed the unions.

>>82674985
It was actually simplified because they wanted them to be easier for children to draw. Thats why shape language is used so prominently in the gems designs. after all, its a fucking childrens show.
It was never a means of making it easier to animate, especially when the cost of the pilot wasnt as massive as youd expect it to be considering its quality.

>>82676195
its a double edged sword. the union rates made it so studios cant afford to, or cost less to, outsource. it also makes it so studios are less willing to experiment. it also killed all the small studios that couldnt compete with union rates.

Unions also destroyed detroit.

>>82674985
Dude, save for several surface details, that picture wouldn't be too hard to animate. It still consists of simplified anatomy and exaggerated proportions.

Are your standards that low?

>>82677647
No but cable tv is.

>>82677647
For an animated film, sure but as >>82677727
states, not for cable tv.

>>82674985
This is what breaking the 180° Rule looks like

>>82652377
270, so close!

>>82666537
Your pic related example is a superhero comic based action cartoo. The current ones I can think of (mostly MCU) look relatively realistic

>>82660671
AND NOTHING OF VALUE WAS LOST

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>>82661394
You're right, it's not even a contest.
they both have really good things to offer

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>>82671667

>>82664095
>not expecting /co/ to be autistic/oblivious to everything

How did you not see this coming?

>>82652289
And subsidy wars
Looking at you Canada and hopefully not India stop fucking taking our VFX houses away

>>82652457
Is he supposed to be 47 or 12?

I honestly love how mad this topic makes both sides. I mean yeah we could use more shows with variety when it comes to art but I don't see you doing shit about it.

>>82659374
>Krillin
>Wario
>CalArts

Why is it called CalArts?

>>82682652
california arts

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>>82674539
One of the most pointless annoyances I have with this is how she lost the cute collared shirt design for some tshirt that looks like what a white trailer-trash "nerd gurl" would buy at Hot Topic.

It's hard to put into words without sounding autistic as fuck, but it's like anything that isn't immediately recognizable within the niche of a "fandom girl"'s interpretation has to be wiped away. I don't get why it bothers me so much.

>>82652289
>>82652289
Fuck off, you elitist cynical cunt. Calarts is cute and makes for some sexy characters, fucking slit your wrists you shittaste retard!

>>82670597
Okay, sure, that video gets the thick outlines, but so much of original PPG’s charm was its excellent color work, which still is missing there.

ITT, art students who couldn't afford to or just plain couldn't get into CalArts.

>>82671546
>people ignored the post that completely decimated their platform
Of course

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>>82674985
>full Pug Davis animated series never

>>82683544
It's still better executed than nuPPG.
I doubt really anyone "can" make PPG, "PPG", without the head behind the original, Craig McCracken. The point is, "Amateur" > "Professionals" and that's fucking pathetic, no matter what you say.

>>82674701
>SONIC THE HEDGEHOG: HE'S A FUCKING HEDGEHOG

>>82683563
Ill get into cartoon network even if it kills me, with or without calarts.

>>82682326
Makes just as much sense as Sans from Undertale being used as an example.

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>>82683255

I'm surprised people are still pushing this meme on here, the original argument was so full of holes, fallacies, and obvious confirmation biases that it was absolutely ripped apart months ago.

To be honest I thought it was dead, but I guess its corpse washed in here.

You guys are a collection of huge retards

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>>82652289

Look who just got rejected from CalArts.

Better burn your portfolio and put one together that isn't full of dogshit, OP.

>>82684219
I WANNA BE ON CARTOON NETWORK

>>82684863
>Loud House
>good in anyway

>>82671229
I didn't say it's the absolute best. I said it's better than Adventure Time and similar shows.

>>82682652
Callous Artists, judging by the quality of their work

>>82673190
Anime was derived from manga in the 60s, which was built on framing, composition, poses and "high impact" images in a cinematic way. Although it can approximate movement to a degree it of course isn't animation and wasn't developed with animation in mind. Anime was also made for TV in the first place, where time and money were very scarce. A new style of "limited animation" was developed, instead of attempting to create a poor man's Disney which is what American TV animation is still attempting to this day. One of the things that make this style work is frequent changes in camera angles, which lets you get away with fewer drawings. Cutting to new angle makes your brain think there's more movement than there really is. Maybe it's based on your familiarity with how live action cinema is shot. But it's not as simple as it seems; you need to make a LOT of background drawings, and setting up scenes becomes much more difficult because you're drawing everything from multiple angles, and have to maintain visual continuity (e.g. consistent lighting), keep track of where everyone and everything in the scene is, and shoot it in a way that makes sense. It's much like real filmmaking.

>>82673190
>>82685634
While the drawings in anime are fewer they also take more time to draw, and in that same amount of time you could make several simpler drawings and have more animation. But anime doesn't do that, and I think it's because anime is about making animated cinema, not just "animation." Quality drawings, backgrounds and cinematography lend a greater sense of realism to the visuals, which is very important when you're doing something more ambitious than cartoons, such as a realistic drama set in the real world. And they just look better. Sure, some American shows might have more frames of animation, but does it actually look good? No, and nobody is rushing to create sakuga videos either.

American animation seems to have been determined by Disney, and they were all about movement because they were making something akin to animated stage shows with singing, dancing, physical comedy and exaggerated acting. It was all about the performances of the characters and the spectacle of their movement. Comparing it to stage is very apt because it very often even looks like the characters are on stage (wide angle shots from the side, lack of depth and three-dimensionality, characters moving left and right). Disney created a very narrow mold into which everyone else poured themselves into.

>>82660797
they have a small budget you wingus dingus pingus.

>>82678288
>not for cable tv.
Are you kidding? Just remove some surface details and it's perfectly animate-able.

>>82652377
307th post here. /co/ used to be love.

>3/4 perspective

>>82663241

You are thinking of Canadian toons, there's actually a very funny story as to why they suck so much.
>>82652642
Which school? Also you're forgetting the part where Williams talks about how he went into a room full of students and showed them a simple walk cycle. I doubt a room of painters would care about that stuff. Also, I'm pretty sure most Art schools are filled with nothing but animators, people aren't stupid and they know its a wiser choice to choose animator over painter or sculptor.

>>82673190
>why hasn't any other country stepped in and completely supplanted the Japanese industry in terms of sheer quality and quantity of animated works
Even the basic idea of treating animation as if it were cinema or live action TV is alien or highly unusual outside Japan. In America, many if not most people don't even believe that what anime is doing is possible, even if they see it in action (you can't make serious animation for adults, you can't have complicated storytelling in animation, you can't have cinematography in animation, you can't have realism in animation). Anime has unique artistic, production, media, monetization and fan practises and circumstances that don't exist may not even be possible elsewhere, and the whole thing has taken many decades to build and requires a lot of manpower, expertise and infrastructure that you can't just summon from thin air.

The work conditions in the anime industry may not be ideal, but clearly enough people are willing to put up with them.

>>82686335
Well. What's the story. I want to know.

>>82686502
Canada is insanely insecure about itself. Its like Belgium. There's a difference between it and its neighbor but NO ONE cares. So in order to help the country differentiate itself from America, the government enacts certain laws and programs. Its why they have the NFB and why Canadian cartoons look like Soviet-Era shit. You see the government created that stated that if a certain network was to get subsidies or funding they would have to air a certain amount of Canadian-made programs for a certain amount of time. Knowing full well the Canadian public prefers American-made programs, the networks simply decided to pump out a bunch of cheaply made shows to keep the Beauracrats happy, while still being a able to keep their popular American shows.

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>>82652289
>CalArts is the cancer killing Western animation

The cure is coming right up!

Any minute now, kids!

Just around the corner!

I can already smell John K putting his finishing touches. . .!

He is about to do it, the fucking madman!

>>82687714
Isn't he trying to start a fucking studio? Im going to support it. Just to see the crazy bastard succeed. It would be cool if a bunch of youtube animators joined forces with him, as they all use the whole Ren and Stimpy style.

>>82687714
John K is a hack and the only reason people on this board worship him is because they are nostalgiafags.

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>>82687755
>It would be cool if a bunch of youtube animators joined forces with him, as they all use the whole Ren and Stimpy style.

How is John's penchant for constant revision going to work out in the generation of The Offended, though?

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>>82672652
>>82672947
John K can teach a lot from his blog etc, but his style seems to ignore his own rules.

Also why does everyone want to be a storyboard artist? They can't do stories 'cause "animation scripts" has killed the main point of storyboards, and they're just send to be redrawn onmodel by Koreans now anyway.

>>82685634
>>82685655
>>82686367
Holy shit, thanks for the replies. Didn't actually think I'd get that much of an explanation.

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>>82666187
>talented

>>82686003
It's not that easy.

It's never as easy as you think it is.

>>82659124
>hana barbera is a "signiture style"
>calarts/CN, doing the same thing, is "lazy and similar"
When I say 'retarded' you say 'faggot,!
retarded!

>>82657086
>ad hominem

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Utterly, completely and irrevocably.

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>>82693841

>>82652509
Spongebob was literally a napkin doodle, get fucked you moron.

>>82652642
>if I cherrypick the bad art projects at one school that means art school is automatically shit everywhere in the world
pathetic

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>Don't worry guys, we'll just *write* cartoons back into being good again!

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>I've got it! The solution is more frames and "world-building"!

>>82652289
>DUDE CALARTS IS CANCER LMAO xD

Fucking kill yourself, you pathetic waste of space.

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We are in a brand new frontier.