The Great X-Men Storytime - Vol. 2: All-New All-Different (Part 7)

Let's get started with a Byrne quote, one that's actually good

> Those who have attempted to "adapt" Dark Phoenix have repeatedly missed the most important element of the story: it was the "burning fuse" that made it work, not the big explosion at the end.

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>>82413377
So true, you can't just jump straight to it, you need to build it up first.

>>82413377
I've disagreed with a lot of what Byrne has had to say about the Claremont-era X-stuff in the past, but he absolutely nails it here.

I think the whole "burning fuse" thing is also why a lot of younger readers whose first exposure to Claremont's X-Men is via recommendations of the Dark Phoenix Saga come away underwhelmed. The Dark Phoenix Saga proper (Uncanny X-Men #129–#138) is really just the final act in a much longer and involved narrative that had its seeds planted around Uncanny X-Men #98 or thereabouts (it's where Claremont introduces many of the character relationships and dynamics that give the Dark Phoenix Saga its gut-punching oomph).

Reading the Dark Phoenix Saga without reading the 30 or so issues that came before it is a lot like watching the final season of Breaking Bad without watching the prior seasons: it still makes for an entertaining exercise, but you're going to miss out on a whole lot of emotional investment in the events.

So I'm confused, how much of the Phoenix Force was a retcon? Cause Jean has been implying she's changed since she first became Phoenix, and Gladiator and the Shi'Ar refer to her as "the chaos bringer" later on, all before she dies.

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Oops, sorry to cut this short but I gotta take a short break. Will be back asap

>>82413805
When you comeback answer me this, after this run of uncanny x-men, what will be next ?

new mutants?

>>82413850
What do you mean by "this run" Anon?

>>82413859
This volume ?

I'm 90% done with finals, this is a nice place to decompress with one of the GOAT X-Men stories.

imo it's kinda overrated but that's because it's such a huge influential thing that now is passe. Also the slow, slow burn no one talks about

>>82413850

New Mutants ain't til Brood Saga, we got plenty to go.

>>82413765

I don't think retcons start flying until they decide to bring Jean back

>>82413377

Every time Mystique yells at Jean and the X-Kids in Apocalypse trailers that they don't need to worry about controlling their power I laugh and laugh and laugh.

and of course next movie they're gonna jump right to DPS instead of building it up.

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Aaaaaaand I'm back. Let's finish this.

I remember the first time I read this issue is when I got it with a Marvel Legends figure. Cool stuff.

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>>82413850
Dazzler, New Mutants, Alpha Flight, plenty of minis, lots of cool and not so cool stuff.

>>82413906
>I don't think retcons start flying until they decide to bring Jean back

Yeah, here's a breakdown of how things happen

> Kurt Busiek is in college now and a fan of the Silver Age stuff
> hates the Claremont X-Men as seen in an angry fan letter about how he's ruining the team
> while in college he and some friends try and think up retcons for fun
> gets an internship/low level Marvel job
> one day over lunch shares his Phoenix retcon with editor Roger Stern
> Stern passes it along to Bob Layton and John Byrne
> Shooter gives them the approval since X-Factor was already going to happen, but with Dazzler
> Claremont is still mad to this day

is this the beginning of the Asgardian saga? That was an awesome story arc

>>82413805

DAT PANEL DOE

WOLVERINE COMIN

>>82414160
No that won't be a thing until the X-men and Alpha Flight mini. The New Mutants haven't even been established yet and their the best part of the Asgardian Saga

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>>82414160
That comes way, way later.

>tfw I'm still on the silver age threads

I'll catch up one day

perhaps

>>82414159
> ruby quartz helmet
It'll be awhile before something more absurd shows up

I forgot how hot the Black Queen costume was.

>>82414056

I knew there was a reason I never warmed to Busiek

>>82413988
Damn, now I feel really old. The first time I read this issue was via a paperback reprint back in 1986 or 1987. This issue (and the issue after it) was probably what solidified me as an X-fan for the next several years (I stopped reading the X-books after Claremont's first departure from Marvel in 1991, but I've tried to keep up here and there, but mostly, my X-reading these days involves reading the Claremont/Simonson-era stuff that I missed the first time out).

>>82414074
Is this one of the best Wolverine issues ever? He's practically playing with these henchmen.

>>82414258
He HAS to have gotten over it in the past decades.

>>82414394
Yeah a homage cover

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>>82414391
It's certainly up there.

>>82414391

No question. The "Now it's my turn" panel is also one of the most important in Marvel imo.

>>82414444

i just don't see how you could like the O5, especially after Claremont started.

>>82414470
Her beauty mark looks like a mouse courser, it threw me off

I'm mad this time that Jean is supporting the British in the Revolution.

Shaw having to fight shirtless is hilarious

>>82414394
doing homage covers already huh

>>82414672

you're making Simon cry Beast

>>82414475
>i just don't see how you could like the O5, especially after Claremont started.

Eh, Busiek being butthurt over Claremont's X-Men run is really just a pre-Internet case of "NOT MUH." Dude was a huge fan of the Silver Age stuff.

But while I like the occasional Busiek comic, I think the whole Jean/Phoenix retcon thing is also a notable example of what can go wrong when you put fanboys in a position where they can actually undo creative decisions they disagreed with as readers, even if it is to the retroactive detriment of the overall body of work (see also: Quesada and Straczynski's One More Day).

>>82414633
> Anyone can punch. Nightcrawler is going to clobber you in style.

Between this and that island vignette Kurt oozes with personality compared to the other newcomers.

>>82414949
Oh snap here we go.

its been awhile since i've read these but it still holds up great and Claremonts writing and Byrne and Austins art on the X-Men during this run is really one of the all time greats

In another trade we talked about why Byrne is not considered one of the all time greats like Miller, Moore ect due to this run and his Fanatic Four and Superman runs were outstanding. And someone said that he just liked to play in the DC/Marvel sandbox too much.

That and spouting off on the internet like a crazyperson

>>82413340
Man, I'm still roughly under one week behind these live storytimes, reading through the archive.

The OG team had a long run that was difficult to get through but I'm glad I persevered because it became 100x more enjoyable once Polaris and Havok were introduced.

I finally understand Neal Adams praise. He's early work is genius even compared to today's standards.

The Beast mini was a great read too. Thanks for your hardwork, OP.

I see these threads are no longer reaching the image bump limit so I expect I'll have any easier time catching up from now on.

>>82414833
So Emma Frost used to be an inventor of sophisticated machines?

>>82415098
I'm baffled that Byrne thinks the characters are more important than the writers/artists. He thought it was a mistake to put credits in comics

>>82415108
Marvel vs Capcom 3 fucking NAILED Dark Phoenix when they included these quotes.

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>>82415164
Not gonna lie, that actually sounds pretty fucking insane.

>>82415098

I think it's mostly the being an asshole

the subplot setting up DOFP here. primo.

Claremont could work it man

>>82415253
>Power Cosmic vs. Phoenix Force
Claremont, stop. My penis can only get so erect.

>>82415164

Yeah just about everything about Byrnes internet presence and opinions baffles me. He kinda left comics in a whimper the last thing I saw of him was the underwhelming Claremont/Byrne reunion in JLA and his return to Superman with Gail Simone that started that whole Nelson over inking him controversy

I do think he's a very talented writer and artist (When he has a good inker when he does his own inks they are too heavy in my opinion. When Jerry Ordway inked him on FF the art was stunning )

I wonder if hes still in the biz..Byrne and Claremont have not written anything i know of lately

>>82415168

Dat last iconic panel

>>82415324
> The Defenders with Strange, Surfer, and Phoenix

>>82415341

He's doing those dumb Star Trek photo comics. I think he's also drawing an adult coloring book too. which upsets me cause I'd love a coloring book of some of these X-issues.

>>82415244
Oh I agree..But it seems like both Miller and Moore have had cases of being an internet asshole and gotten away with it but it just stuck to Byrne like glue.

As much as I think he is a jerk I don't think Byrne is given enough credit for shaping comics during the 80's and 90's like the rest

>>82413464
Jean is pretty casual at kissing others in front of her boyfriend.

>>82415341
>I wonder if hes still in the biz
He's over at IDW doing Star Trek photo comic with his awful photoship skills. It's kind of sad

>>82415387

I think these aliens showed up in Avengers? or something like as a one off.

>>82415393
>just stuck to Byrne like glue

Byrne has an enormous persecution complex. He thinks people have been out for him ever since he left X-Men

OP, do you intend to post the original ending to DPS?

>>82415426

here it is, they were from Avengers 4

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/01/30/comic-book-legends-revealed-508/2/

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>>82415426
Yep.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/01/30/comic-book-legends-revealed-508/2/

>>82415496
I don't have that, so nope.

>>82415413
>>82415384
Ugh I'm morbidly curious on how bad the Star Trek comics are but still its like seeing a once rich great actor playing in death of a salesman at a five and dime dinner theater in Pomona Fla..

Kinda sad

I would think that Claremont is just living high on the hog if he got any X-Men movie money. Just about all of his films has his ideas in them unless Marvel and Fox are being dicks

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>>82415562
>>82415566
Ha! CSBmind.

>>82415585

There's a hilarious page where Byrne uses himself as an old man yelling at people to get off his lawn. If it was anyone but Byrne I'd add it's a clever self deprecation

>>82415585
No idea if this applies to claremont.

“When I work for DC, anything I create I get a piece of. Lucius Fox, for example, who was in the last trilogy of Batman movies played by Morgan Freeman, bought my new house. At Marvel, I did see a check off The Wolverine, the current film. But as a rule I don’t any of the ancillary money off of all of the toys and soaps and shampoos and skateboards and God knows what else that features the character.”

— veteran writer and editor Len Wein, who co-created the Batman supporting character Lucius Fox and the wildly popular Wolverine, talking about his compensation for film adaptations during a Television Critics Association panel for the upcoming PBS miniseries Superheroes: A Never-Ending Battle.

>>According to TheWrap, Wein said that although there have been six movies featuring Wolverine, “esoteric rules” mean that he was only compensated for the most recent one, because it was named for the character. The requirements are so strict that he didn’t receive a check for 2009’s X-Men Origins: Wolverine.

>>82415620

>Contains more shocks and surprises than ever before!

cover kinda gives it away tho.

>>82415566
It's called "Phoenix: The Untold Story" if that helps.

>>82415620
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/7/71/Crisis_on_Infinite_Earths_7.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20070226142252

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>>82415690
Maybe as an addendum later, I'm kind of short of time today.

>>82415699

dat Claremont accent on the president. Carter?

>>82415654
Thats an interesting piece. Good for Len Wein. He's one of the few people that Alan Moore looks up to and he has done so much for comics.

I would think Claremont got some kind of compensation. All of the X-Men films have something that he created

>>82415777
In 2009, Claremont said, "The history of modern comics would be incredibly different if you took [Wein's] contributions out of the mix. The fact he doesn't get credit for it half the time is disgraceful. We owe a lot of what we are – certainly on the X-Men – to Len and to Dave [Cockrum]"

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>>82415733
I personally prefer the Crisis cover

>>82415839

I saw a funny back and forth between Cockrum and Byrne somewhere over who did more for the X-Men or something and Cockrum just went out listing all the shit he had a hand in creating.

>>82415887
Same

>>82415839
I would agree with that statement. Also his work at DC is very understated. Created Swamp Thing, Edited Watchmen, one of the architects of Crisis On Infinite Earths and much much more

>>82415660
> Araki

>>82416124

Goddammit Xavier.

>>82416096
>>82416124
>>82416140

Im always stunned how good this sequence is in writing and art and how this whole run still looks fresh today.

Claremont was so so good at writing the X-Men . I know i might get flamed for this but i've always loved the short lived Paul Smith run. I was not so warm on the Cockram return until the Brood War when he left again

>>82416249
https://youtu.be/Ygx_rUJ3XaI?t=4743

>>82416285

now you know it's serious

>>82416285

Dat 4th Wall breaking

>>82416387

Ha yeah you know if Watcher has to say something to the reader, shit is about to go down.

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>>82416465
I miss Uatu. Original Sin was such a crock of shit.

I forgot just how much emotion was crammed in here.

>>82416501

Beast bout to fuck an alien

>>82416539
Agreed the whole thing was bullshit after bullshit. Uatu and the Nick Fury crap pissed me off the most. To me it just an exercise on how to piss off silver age fans

>>82416501
>She's become two separate entities: Jean Grey and Phoenix.
It's comments like this that make me wonder if Claremont always was going to have e the Phoenix Force be a thing.

reading all this it doesnt seem clear to me that Dark Phoenix happened because Mastermind corrupted her.

very upset this and the Phoenix Saga are the closest we'll get to X-Men/Legion crossover.

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>>82416634
Quesada has to die SOME day.
Even if it takes a literal lifetime

>>82416634
Hey the X-Men/Teen Titans Crossover was great but I get your point.

The X-Men/Legion crossover was more obvious the last time they met during the end of Cockrams run who was an ex-Legion artist.

And dont get me started on the Legion of Superheroes. Bummed that DC cant seem to get it off the ground no matter who is in the creative helm. Oh well we did have a nice moment during the Johns and Frank Superman Run and Legion of Three Worlds

I guess there is no way to reboot the LoSH..Sigh

It's weird Iceman isn't involved.

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>>82416716
Quesada is the reason we don't see any DC/Marvel crossovers nowadays, actually.

>>82416757

Never the end for the Legion! They'll make it back

>>82416760
As has been said before, Byrne didn't want to draw him.

>>82416761
Since the so-called Silver Age of Comics, which took place from 1956 to 1969, readers have defined who they were by their allegiance to Marvel or DC.

DC was Dick Van Dyke’s 1960’s. It was The Flash, alter ego of handsome, earnest police scientist Barry Allen, and his reporter girlfriend Iris West, whose sharp, delicate features, Capri pants and hair ribbons made you swoon, but not lust. The lettering was clean, and the art, wide and open, imbued with the sense of Ivy League decorum and buttoned-down sensibilities.

Marvel, meanwhile, was Lenny Bruce. Beginning with the Fantastic Four in 1961, Mr. Lee and his crew created comics that tapped into the roiling social and sexual energies of the time. When the heroes weren’t fighting villains, they were battling their inner demons, unsympathetic cops or other superheroes.

As Michael Chabon, author of The Amazing Adventures Of Kavalier & Clay , the Pulitzer Prize–winning novel about two comic-book writers in the 1930’s, put it: “DC was part of the establishment. Marvel was different. When I was younger, I liked the heroes of DC because they seemed like parental figures. When I was older, I liked Marvel, because they seemed like they were my contemporaries.”

Mr. Quesada is convinced that some good old-fashioned gloves-off rivalry will be good for business. “I liked it when the two companies hated each other,” he said. “It made it better for the fans. You know, if you like DC, then you hated Marvel. If you like Marvel, then you hated DC.”

>>What the fuck is DC anyway?” Mr. Quesada said, stoking the fires. “They’d be better off calling it AOL Comics. At least people know what AOL is. I mean, they have Batman and Superman, and they don’t know what to do with them. That’s like being a porn star with the biggest dick and you can’t get it up. What the fuck?” (Paul Levitz, DC’s president and publisher, declined to comment for this story through a spokesperson.)

>>82416812

Classic Byrne!!

>>82416761
I desperately need another JLA/Avengers.

>>82416760
I was thinking the same thing. Iceman is one of my favorite X-Men (Screw you Bendis!) and him being left out for so long is just odd. I guess Claremont didn't like him.

>>82416836

I agree with Quesada that a friendly rivalry is good for both companies but clearly he took it too far from DC's reaction.

AOL Comics is still a funny jab

>>82416836
Except it isn't the 60's anymore. If he did it just out of competition, he'd be taking potshots at Image or Dark Horse too.
Besides, key word is "friendly", his bullshit seems like he actively hates them.

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>>82416836
Yeah, he's a real piece of work.

>>82416892
I think this about the time that Quesada was pulling up marvel from the ground it was run into AND the time it came out that DC was thinking about buying Marvel when it was near bankruptcy. That would have been interesting huh esp how Marvel is today

What strikes me funny is how the same Eds in chief who helped run Marvel into the ground were hired to run DC editorial

>>82417031
>>82417064

I uh think you missed some stuff

>>82417031
Who knows it things change

The beginning of one of the most controversial comics characters of all time.

There's a new hero in Batman's world, whether the Dark Knight likes it or not!

Jean-Paul Valley has just been told by his dying father that his family is part of an ancient secret society known as The Order of St. Dumas-and that he is the latest in a long line of deadly assassins! Now with his psychological conditioning complete, Valley has been transformed from a computer science major into the unstoppable weapon known as Azrael. But when he is forced to target the heroic Batman, he starts to question his life and duty.

Legendary creators Dennis O'Neil and Joe Quesada are joined by comic industry superstars Barry Kitson, James Pascoe, and Kevin Nowlan.

AZRAEL VOL.1 FALLEN ANGEL collects BATMAN: SWORD OF AZRAEL #1-4, SHOWCASE '94 #10, and AZRAEL #1-7.

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>>82417085
Oh shit, so I did haha, how embarrasing. Sorry I got distracted by this download.

>>82414833
>>82414864
Damn. Jean ain't holding back

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Now we can do this issue properly.

>>82417779

Shooter was so fucking right about the ending.

The Watcher's robot buddy is cracking me up. Just have Uatu talk straight to the audience

>>82417739
Easily one of the best endings of any comic storyline.

>>82418076

>Magneto wasn't her father he was just lying

Now it's just hilarious how people can't keep track of his kids

>>82418125
I wonder if we ever learn about Zaladne's origins

>>82415387
>>82415424
I think there were better ways to convey her powers and evil side than a genocide, but, damn, these pages look so good

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>>82418125
>>82418152
It's pretty hilarious to think Mags might have killed one of his few real kids.

>>82418170

>Beast's mask

it's pretty funny in Avengers they basically just make him a master of disguise

>>82418206
We don't even know how many kids he has.
He had twins, but since they are not SW & Quicksilver, that would mean they are someone else

>>82418213
I'm reminded of that "Sir Barrington" greentext.

>>82418378

....does her shirt say Bitch?

>>82418442
Kurt we need to talk about your awful forehead tattoo

>>82418482

>Nightcrawler was only 20 when he joined the X-Men

oh fuck you.

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>>82418473
I don't know, give it a few years and I'm sure it'll be in vogue.

>>82416124
For fuck sake Charles, Scott had it under control. Would have killed you NOT using your powers for once?

>>82418442
>artist jhon romita JR
Aaaaand dropped

>>82418561

this is way before he grew into his style.

also JRJR is one of the greats

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>>82418561
80's JRJR was pretty damn great. I recommend checking out Man Without Fear and his DD run with Ann Nocenti.

>>82418586

>I thought he was some Human/Demon hybrid

fucking racist

>thread making me wanna read more new x-men
>no good ongoings so decide to dip a toe into fanfiction
>Look for Scott/Emma cause they're the best
>All fics are about how they are horrible and suck
>Also a bunch of movie Professor X/Magneto stuff

welp i'm disappointed

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>>82418791
That's fanfiction for ya.

I'm assuming that a twist is coming but that they all just assume Dante nailed it when describing hell is really off to me. Strange's reaction is a nice tonic for that tho

>>82419185

>Wolverine in panel 1

and low, 20 odd years later it happened

>>82418791
uncanny x-men, the one with cullen bunn, is pretty good, he is good with antiheroes like Sinestro and Magneto, and the last issues dont even have Land art. but it is much much more like an x force book than an x men book.
It is the only good X-Men book, along with Old man Logan, ive heard the X23 book is also good.

>>82418642
Hey, in his line of work that's not out of the realm of possibility.
Also, fuck whoever made him half-demon.

>>82419214

I just don't like Bunn, at all. I'm mad he's apparently been doing a lot of stuff with Magneto cause Mags is great.

I think Lemire's doing mediocrely but it's readable

>>82419242

we all agreed to quietly retcon that

>>82417525
I liked it better how they did this in Ultimate.
>I'm a telepath Scott, I know everything you ever imagined doing with me! There's only two things I wouldn't do, only two! I'm fine with everything else!

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>>82419242
That was Austen and boy, is his run going to be a lot of fun when I run it.

>>82418916
why does Claremont love so much the "this thing, it disgusts me, but it is almost as if a deep secret part of me enjoyed it"?

>>82416836
>Since the so-called Silver Age of Comics, which took place from 1956 to 1969, readers have defined who they were by their allegiance to Marvel or DC.
I have never met somebody who wasn't a complete moviefag who actually does this.

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>>82419343
You know why.

>>82419290
>Austen
That is hands down the LOWEST point of Uncanny. You've got Morrison/Quitely on NXM, Milligan/Allred on X-Force/Statix and Claremont/Larroca on X-Treme.....and then there's Uncanny.

>>82419343
because he has a corruption fetish

>>82419290
I guessed it was him, but I didn't want to assume that every fucked up thing in the X-Men was his fault.

>>82418152
>I wonder if we ever learn about Zaladne's origins

I'm pretty sure she was completely forgotten after Claremont was off the book.
That storyline with her ended very abruptly. And it had Lorna turning into a giantess with hulk strength to offset the lack of her magnet powers.

Speaking of which, was that ever explained?

>>82419414

>Nimrod

he, I'm picturing a robot hanging out.

I like that in this issue Colossus has the power of friendship

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>>82419431
You can probably blame Bendis too

>>82419495
Except for the time Magneto started burning humans alive in giant ovens. We know who's fault that was.

>>82419661

Kurt's relationship with Amanda is still creepy and weirdly incesty to me.

>>82419258
hopeless a few months ago during secret wars referenced that in his Inferno mini, an evil Magik thanked Colossus for giving her her own half-demon teleporter.

Give Bunn X-Men a try, antiheroes are the only thing he does well. And Sinestro has been the only good green lanter book for years, Venditti Green Lantern is awful.

>>82419745

I may read his Magneto, between Land and Apocalypse shit I'm gonna stay off Uncanny for a bit

>>82419830
Yay! First Appearance of Wolverine's Brown Costume!

He would keep it until Jim Lee brought the blue/yellow suit back in '92.

Byrne and Claremont stuff might be opular but I can't sit through any of it. It's all so fucking creepy.

>>82419905
>creepy.
How so?

>>82419527
The nazis ?

>>82419593
"szardos" means "taking a shit on something constantly/uncontrollably" in Hungarian - a country that has been famous throughout the centuries for its gypsy population.

I don't know if that naming was intentional.

>>82418683
Considering the futuristic aspects of the comic you think they'd have given Xavier something better than a wheelchair years before PARALYMPIC GOLD.

>>82419873
There's actually a pretty interesting story regarding how Wolverine's brown costume came about. It was basically a compromise design between the "Fang" costume designed by Dave Cockrum (which was supposed to replace the original get-up) and the yellow-and-blue costume (which John Byrne preferred).

More details here:

http://thegeeksverse.com/2015/07/28/leaving-proof-274-a-visual-history-of-the-wolverine-character-design/

>>82420104

>the "Fang" costume designed by Dave Cockrum

Wolverine growing closer and closer to being revealed as a Timber Wolf knock off really amuses me

>>82420124
... did they seriously, never at any time had any of the x-men interact with Wolverine using his real name? After so many issues? I know he introduced himself as Logan to Mariko a few issues back, but did they actually pay attention to never have him mention his name to the rest of the team?

Some nice attention to detail, if that's true.

>>82420206

Only other time I can think of it coming up is the leprechauns

>>82420206
I think they are still largely unaware of how fast he heals, and they may think the adamantium is part of his mutation.