What went so fucking wrong?

I'd blame movies but really the turning point was Civil War

>>82375666
Movie rights

The mid 2000's onwards

>>82375666
Nothing

You're a faggot

Movie synergy and placating to the tumblr demographic, but before that, Quesada.

>>82375666
Satan, SJWs, movie/TV synergy, Brian Michael Bendis, constant shitty events and relaunches, and quality inconsistency.

nothing

you just got old and bitter

>>82375666
You tell me, Lucifer.

>>82375666

Well, Satan, Marvel and DC comics have always been 90% shit, with only a few outstanding story arcs. Notice that the most praised stories from each company tend to be written by the exact same authors (Daredevil: Born Again and The Dark Knight Returns, New X-Men and All-Star Superman, Superman: WHTTMOT? and Captain Britian, etc., etc.

>>82375693
>was Civil War
Disassembled deserves some blame too

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>>82375711
>SJWs

Nice meme

>>82375772
(You)

>>82375733
Shut up MovieBob

I fully believe that Civil War was the beginning of the end

>>82375711
it was bad long before most of those things, like at least a solid decade

>>82375752
How was marvel before Disassembled ?

>>82375666
>50% of F4 dead
>spider-man is meh/good depending who you ask
>x-men are literally in limbo because movie rights
>avengers are everywhere which can be good or bad or meh
>Daredevil has his own tv show and is popular as fuck
>Frank still Franks

>>82375805
>it was bad long before
Do you mean from the time the founders of Image Comics left Marvel in 1992, or the Onslaught era?

>most of those things
...make the situation worse.

>>82375666
People who didn't know anything about comicbooks suddenly out of no where got into them

Fox-men and Inhumans drama

the 90s

How come people always bring up Marvel but DC does reboots like every other fucking year

>>82375906
DC has only rebooted twice and they are bad in their own way but this is a Marvel thread not a DC thread so I don't know why you'd expect them to be discussed here

>>82375906

Contrarian shit-lords always go after the popular guy

DC will always be the underdog, so the fedora-tippers will never shit on DC for anything

>>82375906
DC has bad pr team so nobody pays attention to them

>>82375666
Just look at /co/ right now.

>DC fans
>talk about comics and cartoons

>Marvel fans
>majority of threads are about movies and tv shows

>>82375906
But DC have only rebooted twice ever. COIE and New 52.

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>>82375952

How many BvS/Snyder threads do we get a day?

You need to reevaluate your post

>>82375750
Except in the 80s and 90s(for DC atleast)

>>82375970
>implying they are not done by Marvel fags to shitpost and troll about it

You can't fool me, /tv/

>>82375970
no him but i can do it for him

>DC storytimes of current books
>Everyone is happy and joyful, very little shitposting.

>Marvel storytimes of currents books
>people getting mad, and somesimes praise.

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>>82375991

Early 00s ended.

>>82375964
By that logic marvel has never rebooted

>>82375666
all the old fans turned out to be not so loyal after all and stopped buying comics over the past twenty years. Since their previous target demographic evidently no longer cared, Marvel had no choice but to court new demographics.

also, y'know, a bunch of out of touch old men should never have any say in the creative process.

>>82376048

They actually haven't.

>>82376048
I think you're mixing up reboots and relaunches

>>82375857
>50% of F4 dead
What? None of the F4 are dead. Johnny is with the Inhumans. Ben is with the Guardians. Reed is God and Sue is with Reed. Then Franklin is helping Reed be God, and Valeria is leading the Future Foundation in their cataloguing and exploring of the multiverse.

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>>82375857
>>50% of F4 dead
Reed, Sue and the kids are literally rebuilding the multiverse one universe at a time. I guess you could say they are dead, but that's false.
>>spider-man is meh/good depending who you ask
I'm a spider-man fan and AMS has been mediocre at best, this new arc needs to end because the novelty of it has already worn thin. Based Kelly writes a damn good Spider-Man book in Spider-Man and Deadpool, he was even able to take Bendis' shit OC and make him fun for an issue.
>>x-men are literally in limbo because movie rights
Actually they are time displaced (again) to fight a war with Apoc and his Horsemen just in time for the Fox-Men movie. It would have been more accurate to say they have been dealing with Inhumans because of movies.
>>avengers are everywhere which can be good or bad or meh
There is like two teams of Avengers, the one with the teens and the one with the mutants. That's hardly ALL over the place, hell we're missing some West Coast Avengers.
>>Daredevil has his own tv show and is popular as fuck
And this is bad why?
>>Frank still Franks
That's a given, Frank will forever Frank.

>>82376048
But... they didn't.

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>>82375666
>What went so fucking wrong?
X-factor #1 came out.

>>82375906
>DC does reboots like every other fucking year

Because they don't. DC has had 2 major reboots or continuity tweaks with Zero Hour and Rebirth. The rest are relaunches. Marvel relaunches have more frequently and they have a sliding timescale that we pretend makes sense

>>82375947
>So the fedora-tippers will never shit on DC for anything

DC gets a lot more shit thrown at it than Marvel

Movies attracted broader audiences, so now we're getting clumsy attempts to appeal to everyone.

>>82375952
Well Marvel don't have cartoons worth anything now and their comics are still being discussed but they do have shit load of shows and movies right now worth discussing also same would happen to DC but the closest would be angry BvS threads more Arrow and Flash complaining also stupid Bat-hate threads and "how do we make superman cool guise" more Snyder bitching etc

>>82375947
>DC will always be the underdog
Is this true? The minimal knowledge I have of the two companies has led me to believe that Marvel is the underdog.

>>82376158
3 teams, dont forget new avengers with sunspot, also the reason i said all over the place because i was thinking in all the avengers titles that came out in marvel now

>>82375693
>>82375700
>>82375703
>>82375711
>>82375752
>>82375791
>>82375804
>>82375857
>>82376041

Circa the early 00's Marvel was still recovering from bankruptcy and Joe Quesada's strong leadership is responsible for Marvel continuing to exist as a publisher. He brought with him the Marvel Knights line and Ultimate Universe, two ideas which put Marvel back on track to a successful company.

Though we hate him now Ike Perlmutter's fiscal vicegrip likewise cut a lot of the chaff from Marvel's production.

Civil War was a oneoff bullshit idea from Mark Millar that just happened to best Marvel best selling event of all time for Marvel because it's got a perfect elevator pitch. It's an assault on the idea of superheroes themselves with clear sides.

When you comic book nerds come across as so fucking thin-skinned and inconsolable it's publishers disregard you.

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>>82376235
>clumsy attempts to appeal to everyone.

I don't think it appeals to everyone

basically everybody cries about any book that's not Ultimates or Squadron Supreme

It still only appeals to a niche audience, even among comic readers

>>82376158
Also i wasnt shitting in Daredevil, it was just a comment about his current situation in the media

>>82376285

Their top selling books every month are always way behind whatever Marvel's top selling book is. Even if it's something like Batman. And we all know Marvel is crushing them in the movie business too

>>82376301
>He brought with him the Marvel Knights line and Ultimate Universe, two ideas which put Marvel back on track to a successful company.
You forgot to mention Bendis

>>82376304
I'm probably only one that goes "not muh Squadron".

>>82375862
Marvel died in 1986-1987.
>Secret Wars II starts the trend of annualized events/crossovers that derails good stories to tie into whatever garbage editorial wants to shill at the time
>X-factor #1 literally destroys the X-men as a property, causing irreversible damage that the franchise never recovered from
>Shooter drives away most of Marvel's top talent
>Shooter gets fired as a result, leaving Marvel with no one capable of being the Editor-in-Chief efficiently, and spelling the end of the greatest era in Marvel history and the start of years of shit stories
>Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen popularize "dark and edgy" stories which leads the way for the 90s Marvel clusterfuck

>>82376285
>Is this true?

Right now, yes. DC'a market share has shrunk from a third to around 25%.

Part of Rebirth as an Event is that they're adopting several of Marvel's strategies like double-shipping and trying to do, fewer, better titles.

>The minimal knowledge I have of the two companies has led me to believe that Marvel is the underdog.

Historically Marvel has ebbed and flowed, in the 90's the x-men office was bigger than all the rest of Marvel and DC offices.

But Marvel spent much of the 90's bubbling and then imploding and then slowly recovering in the 00's. DC had a long standing advantage for much of that twenty years.

>>82376331
One of the reasons for marvel crushing dc is because since this year began, there has not been a month without marvel releasing a new #1

>>82376361

The mention of his name triggers /co/

>>82376331
>Their top selling books every month are always way behind whatever Marvel's top selling book is. Even if it's something like Batman.

What? Batman beats out everything Marvel does outside of #1's for their most hyped characters. Marvel is really lucky to have access to Star Wars

>>82376361
Quesada was the person that brought Bendis and Millar on. Without Quesada, there would have been none of that. Bendis wasn't even a writer, he was an artist. Quesada basically said "Brian, you're a shitty artist, but you've got some great ideas. You should give writing a shot." which is why Bendis is so fiercely loyal to Marvel, since were it not for them giving him that push and that chance then he would have just been a lackluster artist for a few more years before fading into obscurity.

>>82376389

The double shipping is a Marvel technique but they have flooded the market with 70 titles

>>82376421
The mention of his name should be a baneable offense

>>82376442
>20
You mean 30.

>>82376380
It's been thirty years. Also Secret Wars II did not sell as well as its predecessor.

>>82376452
>baneable

>>82376394

But it works

DC needs to get a marketing strategy

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>>82376469
>>82376470
Fuck.

>>82375693
House of M broke the X-Men well before Civil War.

They managed to mine some gold from the crap, but Decimation was a gangrenous wound that they couldn't fix until Second Coming.

>>82376452
bane?

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>>82376452
>a baneable offense

Was getting caught a part of your plan?

>>82375666
they sold out.

>>82376445
>Bendis wasn't even a writer, he was an artist

Buh? Why was Oeming drawing Powers then?

>>82376285
Marvel has been consistently outselling DC since 1967 barring the occasional few months here and there where DC has a major event or gimmick that draws attention their way (like the New 52 launch and Death of Superman).

DC has Batman, which sales amazingly well and better than anything Marvel does, but where DC has a small handful of properties that do really well (Batman, Superman, Justice League, etc.) while the rest of their lines have always struggled, Marvel has a wide range of diverse properties that all are able to stand on their own (Avengers, X-men, Spider-man, Fantastic Four, etc.). DC's problem has always been having too many eggs in one basket. That's not to say Marvel doesn't have that problem too at times (just look at how almost every book in the 90s had an X-crossover or Spider-man and Wolverine getting shoved into books to increase sales for any book where the sales starts to slip) but their fanbases aren't nearly as concentrated as DC's, causing them to have more consistently strong sales across the board compared to DC's handful of extremely high sales with the rest usually floundering.

Marvel has also always marketed itself as something of an underdog despite that having not been the case since the last 60s.

>>82376451

Marvel has been able to be more experimental with titles like Howard the Duck, Squirrel Girl, Hellcat, etc, because they have the mouse and star wars money.

DC meanwhile has trouble selling Superman.

>>82376487
>House of M broke the X-Men well before Civil War.
You say that as if X-men hadn't been garbage since Claremont left barring Morrison's run (which everyone else ignored anyways), and even then, was a pale shadow of its former self since X-factor fucked the entire franchise up in '86.

>>82376581
DC is still far more experimental than Marvel, even without the financial backing. They ran a western from 2006 to 2014 for fucks sake.

>>82376618
>X-factor fucked the entire franchise up in '86.
That's what happens when you go full NOT MUH.

>>82376618
Whedon's run was good

>>82376623
>They ran a western from 2006 to 2014 for fucks sake.

They ran a western at a loss. Like half the New 52's starting lineup was cancelled within a year.

There's a difference between "throwing shit against a wall and seeing what sticks" and "throwing shit at a wall"

>>82376618
>a pale shadow of its former self since X-factor fucked the entire franchise up in '86.

Go back to bed, Chris. It's late and you're old.

And they let you back on X-Men like three times after you quit anyways.

>>82375857
>>x-men are literally in limbo because movie rights

There's 8 fucking X-books.

>>82376623
>They ran a western from 2006 to 2014 for fucks sake.

That's because they didn't do two good Western miniseries and follow them up with a gay farce starring one of the same characters.

>>82376671
And so was half of Marvel NOW!, All-New Marvel NOW!, and I'm sure the same will go for All-New, All-Different Marvel.

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>>82376656
>Whedon's run was good

Whedon's run was what, forty issues? That started a decade ago?

X-Men reached its narrative end in the 90's. Morrison's run was about pointing out how toxic & repetitive the whole franchise had become and the hardcore fans chaffed at most everything he was doing.

>>82376380
>x-factor caused damaged that x-men never recovered from
wasnt x-men at the height of its popularity right after that x-factor run was over and they rejoined the x-men? that was the classic 90's x-men, you had the cartoon, the x-men title running alongside uncanny. how did that ruin x-mens popularity?
or is this a case of you didnt like it, therefore its bad

>>82376680
>popular franchise built on the back of different generations of heroes with older generations retiring to make way for the new ones
>say fuck that and completely up-end the franchise for the sake of bringing back the original team that no one gave a fuck about even when it was originally coming out
No amount of meme-ing will make what X-factor did to the X-men OK. That we've had good X-comics since then is inspite of that, not thanks to it.

>>82376567
>Marvel has been consistently outselling DC since 1967 barring the occasional few months here and there where DC has a major event or gimmick that draws attention their way (like the New 52 launch and Death of Superman).
You forgot most of 1997-2001 (Marvel's bankruptcy until the firing of Bob Harras from the company).

>>82376581
>DC meanwhile has trouble selling Superman.
Because of his shitty editorial

>>82376581

DC actually does much more experimental titles. And the sales for everything you listed are in the toilet.

Hellcat is down to 15,000 at issue 4. That is shit
Howard is 18,000 at issue 5
And Squirrel girl is just over 20,000 at issue 6

Marvel is nowhere near as healthy as you would think at first glance. The endless 1# cycle and DCYou flopping gives people a false sense of security because they just look at the market share. We are already seeing the relaunch cycle have poorer and poorer returns

>>82376706

But Marvel didn't bet the farm on all those titles selling as mainstays like DC did.

People chafe at Marvel constantly relaunching but the market is so cannibalizing it's the proper response.

>>82376623
DC has been experimental since long back, with children's anthologies, war books and not to mention book under Karen Berger which went to become vertigo.

>>82376048
They haven't. A reboot is when at least a part of the universe is reset. A relaunch is when books fall under a new marketing banner. You're thinking of a relaunch.

>>82376671
>Like half the New 52's starting lineup was cancelled within a year.

No it wasn't. If we're going to have the discussion you need to not lie or educate yourself. 22 of the New 52's launch made it all the way to the end of New 52's lifespan until DCYou

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>>82376470
>>82376491
>>82376492
>mfw /co/ notice me

>>82376781

I'm not clueless, Marvel probably can't sustain their output.

The difference is that I genuinely think now under Disney Marvel could publish at a loss for a hundred years and still stay in business.

The industry needs fewer, better books, but everyone is willing to try and outgun their competition.

Dan Didio to my recollection has implied Time Warner has considered mothballing all of DC at times.

>>82376845
>They haven't. A reboot is when at least a part of the universe is reset.

Heroes Reborn was a reboot. Everyone hated it and it was undone, but the renumbering on many titles still goes back to it.

>>82376895
>22 of the New 52's launch made it all the way to the end of New 52's lifespan until DCYou

But 22 is less than half......of 52

>>82376757
Except the only "original X-Man" to retire was fucking Cyclops.
Angel, Beast, and Iceman were all Defenders. Fuck, Havok and Polaris were still showing up in X-Men at the time.

And X-Factor was half devoted to adding yet still more new mutant students. Just because it turns out that Artie Maddicks and Rictor had the most staying power out of them doesn't invalidate that part of the book.

>>82376706
>I'm sure the same will go for ANAD Marvel.
Considering they launched like 75 goddamn books as part of ANAD Marvel, of course that'll happen. That's not sustainable in even the short term. The comic industry is simply not big enough to accommodate that many books.

It's blatantly obvious that like half of their ANAD books are just stealth minis. Which, hey, I'd understand if they wanted to that for the sake of just getting a wide range of trades out there, but historically, Marvel's best selling trades are always their ongoing ones, not their minis or one-offs, unlike DC.

ANAD Marvel is basically Marvel looking at every marketing gimmick they had that worked on their own then doing them ALL AT ONCE.
>a few diversity books get a lot of attention and increase in sales as a result
Oh hey, let's make every book a diversity book thus causing those "diversity sales" from cannibalizing each other since instead of being something that draws attention to a few books, it just becomes homogenized across all their books.
>#1s have really high sales
Oh hey, let's make EVERY book a #1 even the ones that already had high sales, thus causing LCSs to not be able to buy them in the usual quantities causing sales to lower across the board.
>incentive variant covers increase sales
Let's give every book a hundred variants thus causing LCSs to have to front way more money than is feasible to get them.
>event comics increase sales
Let's do a half-dozen events right off the bat, causing none of the books to be able to establish their new status quos before already being thrown for a loop.
>getting fans angry increases sales
Let's piss off as many of our fans as we can, thus causing them to just get frustrated and leave.

They took a bunch of things that worked for them in moderation, and then over did them all at once and now its biting them in the ass. Which is a damn shame because in spite of all that, they do have some good books out but those books are failing in sales.

>>82376956

And the entire New 52 lifespan was not 1 year. DC only axed 8 titles in the first year

>>82376956
He said 22 of them made it to the end. The original guy said half the books were cancelled in the first year. New 52 went for longer than a year.

>>82376699
>only 8 x-books
Fucking bullshit. The X-line should be at minimum half of the books Marvel is putting out since it's Marvel's main franchise and the only one anyone ever cared about besides maybe Spider-man. That you can't see how that's total bullshit just shows you're a Marvel shill.

>>82376751
Heigh of its popularity? Yes, absolutely. But "popular" doesn't mean "good." The Avengers were at the height of their popularity during Bendis' run, but that didn't hold a candle to the Busiek or Stern-eras.

>>82376964
>Let's piss off as many of our fans as we can, thus causing them to just get frustrated and leave.

Fans are like drug addicts who buy more when agitated.

>>82376048
Correct, Marvel has never rebooted, unless you count FF #1, but technically, it wasn't really "Marvel" until then.

>>82376699
Fuck you, 2 of Those book are dealing with inhumans mist fallout which is killing them.

The teen book is using Bendis time displaced X-men and hopeless is on it.

X-92 is too early to say anything.

Both wolverines books are ok i guess, i really dont know about x-23

>>82377038
>Correct, Marvel has never rebooted

Heroes Reborn was a reboot.

Before Disney bought the comic book publishers, the Grant Morrison run of X-Men is the well-known.

Now Disney owns it, they removed the 2000 AD influence and replaced it with a planet of PC shit.

>>82376294
Fuuuuuck, how could I forget AIMvengers?!

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>>82377107
>a planet of PC shit.

>>82377064
>X-92 is too early to say anything.
In the second issue Jubilee's turned into a vampire. Dropped right away.

>>82377076
It was an attempt at a reboot for a handful of their less popular properties. It failed pretty much right out the gate and was almost immediately walked back on with zero effects on the main universe.

616 was never rebooted. Nothing from Heroes Reborn was integrated into 616 when they brought those properties back into the fold. You could actually very well just completely ignore Heroes Reborn and it would have no effect on Marvel continuity. Some characters died fighting Onslaught. A year later, those characters were brought back exactly the same as they were before hand except Tony Stark, who they used that as an opportunity to retcon The Crossing and Teen Tony. Either way, a handful of characters being "dead" for a year and one character having a few things retconned/ignored isn't a reboot.

>>82377168
>A year later, those characters were brought back exactly the same as they were before hand except Tony Stark

And Thor, who got to own a shirt again and who's supporting cast were no longer stuck in human bodies.

>>82377218
>who's supporting cast were no longer stuck in human bodies
Until JMS came around at least.