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NEAL ADAMS: On Superman, New Gods and Jack Kirby …

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Thread replies: 120
Thread images: 38

>How do you compare yourself to Kirby?

>Neal: I don’t. He’s a primitive, you know? Everything’s straight lines and curved lines and it’s all bulky and stuff but in the stuff that Jack Kirby leaves out are mountains of material. He just leaves it out because he just doesn’t care. I care too much and I’ll put it in. It’s still Jack Kirby. There’s nothing really about his characters that’s me except for anatomy and shading and these other things that a better artist does. But I’m not a better creator! I’m not a better writer, storywise. So I’m putting everything that I can get of Jack Kirby into it and I’m adding a little extra drawing. Big deal.

http://13thdimension.com/neal-adams-on-superman-new-gods-and-jack-kirby/
>>
I can't wait until Superman: Odyssey. I hope he doesn't dissapoint
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>>77582495
Wait, Is he calling Kirby's art primitive and careless?
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>>77582826
I honestly don't know what he's saying.
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>>77582871
Pretty sure he is calling himself a better artist but a worse writter that Kirby.

Not sure if that's legal.
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>>77582826
I think he's saying that Kirby's art is jut full of details and materials, and that his art doesn't compare to the details of Jack Kirby's nor he is equal the storyteller of Kirby's level
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>>77582826
I think he means "primitive" in the sense that Kirby's art certainly reflects something more primal in regards to human emotions, specially if they're amplified for adventure/drama.

As for "careless", it could be more about Kirby having no filters about what ideas he placed on the page; his inability to edit himself. I've read interviews with people like Gil Kane in which they state such things.

On the other hand...

>Adams: I had to jump forward in time but I used the same characters. I’m not putting new costumes on ’em. They’re wearing the same costumes Jack Kirby had… Maybe the drawing is a little bit better because I’m a better artist than Jack Kirby was.
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>>77582939
>because I’m a better artist than Jack Kirby was.
That going to rustled some jimmies
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>>77582939
>I’m a better artist than Jack Kirby was.

TRIGGERED
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>>77582912
Eh, I'll say that Kirby's people left something to be desired. Everyoene looks like a gorilla and he has this odd habit of wanting characters to face the 'screen' full on like they're looking at the reader.
Like I swear some of them are making eye contact with me.

But you can't beat Kirby's design.
>>
Let's be honest, Jack Kirby art is ugly as shit. Why is he so defended?
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>>77583121
Because of his creativity.
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>>77583121
debatable.
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>>77582871
>>77582912

I think his point is that Kirby's art was simpler but arguably more effective, especially given the simplicity. Adams puts care into the "anatomy and shading and those other things that a 'better' artist does", but Kirby never needed that shit in the first place. It's why he says, "I'm putting everything that I can get of Jack Kirby into it and I'm adding a little extra drawing. Big deal."
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>>
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>Neal: I’ll give you enough of the story. If you go on the Internet and you kind of explore the stupid Internet—we call it the stupid Internet because there’s lots of stupid things that happen. But there’s these geek freaks who not only think that there’s a hollow earth but also think that there’s a planet on the other side of the sun that we can’t see because it’s on the other side of the sun. It tracks our orbit.

I can't tell if he believes in Counter Earth, or is making fun of the people who believe in Counter Earth despite seeing the truth of the Hollow Earth.
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>>77583121
Because it's iconic? While it may not have been necessarily pretty to look at sometimes (OMAC especially) his art just oozed enthusiasm. He's like a bizarro Rob Liefeld
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>>77583297
So...am I the only seeing a giant dick next to the shopping center?
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>>77583371
No it's there alright.
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>>77582977
but he is.
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>>77583231
Kirby was a capable figure drawer, it was because he understood the basics that he was able to be so successful with his more stylized art. Something that some of the people he inspired failed
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>>77584413
>Something that some of the people he inspired failed

Including Bruce Timm?
>>
Kirby's art was a little simplistic in some areas but with that came sheer unbridled creativity and high concept brilliance

Adams is probably the best technical artist DC had in the day. A mastering of anatomy, figure, detail, expression, etc. that still influences artists today (Ivan Reis is basically a Neal Adams clone)
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>>77582977
>>77583003
>People actually don't think Neal Adams is better than Kirby
Are you men or fiends from hell?
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>>77583860
>>77584607
Hey I only said that Adam's comment was going to rustled some jimmies. I don't support, nor I am agaisnt Adams statement. I am in the grey area
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>>77584440
Timm is capable of drawing outside of his known style, I was thinking more along the lines of Liefeld
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I always liked Infantino better
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>>77582495

I hope Adams can surpass even the insanity he poured into Batman Odyssey with this Superman book.
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>>77584697
Yeah I don't know if this will be bad or good, but it will almost certainly be worth the cover price for pure entertainment
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>>77584537
Neal Adams
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>>77584744
ivan reis. both somewhat similar
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>>77584537
You can really see the Adams influence on early Frank Miller or Bill Sienkiewicz before they both transformed into their more distinct styles

Some early Sienkiewicz in Moon Knight
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Adams loves Kirby, he's just criticizing from a place of respect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUH15Ke_Hzc
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>>77584850
the paneling on this is brilliant. i did a crude mapping of the two ways you can sort of read this page. and just like the nine-panel grid is such a versatile format fuck
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>>77584971
Yeah I like when artists try out pages that aren't meant to be read in the traditional left to right. 8House Kiem required the reader to flip pages upside down and in New X-Men Quietly used a spiral
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>>77584850
>>77584971

This is Ditko more than Adams. Obviously the nine panel is Ditko all over, but the use of borders to "trap" the character for a feeling of tension and claustrophobia is one of his favorite moves.
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>>77582826
Primitive is an art movement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitivism
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>>77585048

Check out Trillium if you haven't yet
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>>77585087
>but the use of borders to "trap" the character for a feeling of tension and claustrophobia is one of his favorite moves

Right like the Spider-Man pages where he's trapped under the steel and as his strength increases to push the weight off the panels increase in size until he's finally free in a glorious full page spread
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>>77585184

He used it all the time in Dr. Strange, the nine panel would be Strange meditating or whatever on our earthly plain getting more and more intense and then there'd be a huge breakout panel into the astral plane.
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>>77582826
>>77582871
"A primitive" in this case refers to a concept in art that /co/ is not intelligent enough to understand and I'm not patient enough to explain.
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Some young Neal Adams having fun with layout cause why not
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Someone post crazy shit from Odyssey
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I'm the biggest Kirby-Fag ever, and I doubt Kirby would been ruffled by this at all. Adams is technically great.
I vastly prefer the energy of Kirby to the accuracy of Adams, however.
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>>77585615
this is too good

is it just me or has digital art sort of forced a lack of experimentation on artists? it's a clean-cut, and most of the fun stuff now comes in paneling rather than content
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>>77585585
I assume he meant simple. Kirby mostly does what's necessary for his intent to be communicated and not much more.
He won't waste time on what he'd consider unnecessary detail. Neal on the otherhand gets very caught up in small details. Jack draws the Forest, Neal draws the trees.

However looking at some of these pieces I don't think I'd agree with that. So I might be wrong in my interpretation.
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>>77582657
This is the first I have heard of this thing and my boner is at maximum.
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>>77582939
>As for "careless", it could be more about Kirby having no filters about what ideas he placed on the page; his inability to edit himself.
If anything, it was because he was having to plot, write and draw a ton of pages each month for the New Gods comics.
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>>77582657
Will anything ever be able to top Batman journeying to the center of the hollow Earth?

I need to re-read this masterpiece.
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>>77584537
Reis isn't as deft as Adams, not nearly as good of a visual storyteller.
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>>77588012
Walter Simon talks about using Kirby as an inspiration to draw faster. Echoing some of this post >>77585811 it's mainly about not striving for perfection but lets the page exist as is, unless you make a major mistake you shouldn't be constantly redrawing
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>>77588208
I have honestly never read Batman Odyssey in its entirety. How insane does it get?
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>>77583121
Amazing linework and speed. Your aesthetic values is not relevant to art quality.
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>>77585831
This is a lack of appreciation for digital coloring. The linework is probably the same.
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>>77588490
>How insane does it get

The details are really fuzzy, but IIRC, by the end of it you get Batman riding dinosaurs in the hollow core of the Earth, with the Sensei from Adams' Deadman stories being Ra's al Ghul's real dad planning some kind of a cataclysm, there's a Neanderthal type ape-man version of Batman and Robin (with costumes!) running around, I think Merlyn (as in the wizard of Camelot lore) pops in as a plot exposition vehicle... And the whole story was basically being narrated to Clark Kent. Or maybe not.

Maybe I should try to read it all over again, it makes no fucking sense what so ever, and it's crazy and stupid enough that it's got insane amount of kitsch value. Just about every single iconic DC Neil Adams character pops in and add almost nothing to the story, along with the token and gratuitous Batman's rogue gallery gather up, where people like Penguin are kept inside Arkham Asylum when Batman and Deadman wearing Joker's body break in for some reason.

Come to think of it, why the fuck was even Man-Bat in the book, other than talk nonsensical shit?
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>>77587980
What the fuck is this page?
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>>77588490
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>>77589238
>Come to think of it, why the fuck was even Man-Bat in the book, other than talk nonsensical shit?

I think it was to establish that Ubu as Man-Bat is bigger than Langstrom Man-Bat.
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>>77589673
It's a hydrogen engine, Fudd. Not the Hindenberg.
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>>77582912
>>77582826
>>77582871
>>77582939

He literally says he DOESN'T compare himself to Kirby, he's just saying they have different styles. "Primitive" doesn't mean necessarily bad things in art, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitivism (desu Kirby art actually looks pretty similar to primitivist paintings)
He's saying Kirby has more stylized, simplified style compared to him - that he doesn't care as in doesn't fuss as much over details - and he says he puts in more stuff like details and shading.
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>>77588490
>Q: Can you give us an overview of the plot?
>Adams: I cannot give you an overview of the plot.
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>>77589783
>(desu Kirby art
>desu
What. I didn't type that. I don't remember typing that. What the fuck.
Am I infected with the weeb virus? I'm gonna turn into monstrous Wereweeaboo?
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>>77589798
Some words that /tv/ overused got wordfiltered recently.
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>>77587980
>>77588012
>>77588012
Holy shit, this is insane. The sad thing is that science literacy in America is so low this is borderline realistic.
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>>77589692
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>>77589861
When I first read those pages, I thought they were from some sort of deranged hydrogen car advertisement.
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>>77585831
Not really, it's more that back in the 80s you colorists were respected as co-creators and you could find their names on the cover. Nowadays they just make a coloring pipeline with anonymous colorists from a graphic studio.

Same thing happened with lettering, Todd Klein and Stan Sakai made it into art in the 80s and now DC either makes Carlos Mangual letter twenty books a month, or outsources it to Comicraft because it's cheaper and faster.

Stan Sakai wins Eisner for lettering every year because noone is even trying to make lettering interesting anymore, so he has no competition.
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>>77589798
Wordfilters
baka senpai desu
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>>77589692
I never have any idea what they're saying here.
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>>77589789
>“Batman: Odyssey,” you have to read it. It’s a book. I told people at the beginning, you know. Now that I’m coming back, I’m going to be doing a book. I’m not going to be doing a series of stories, or you’re going to read the first story and then wonder, “Am I going to like the second story as much as I did, or didn’t, like the first?”

>It’s the first chapter of a BOOK and you’re not going to know what the book is about until you get to the last chapter
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>>77585184
someone post this please
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>>77590680

Sure. So Ditko plotted this scene, paced it, broke it down, laid it out and drew it entirely on his own.

At this point it's becoming pretty obvious that the large majority of Spider-Man was done this way but we have definitive proof of this scene.
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>>77591978

Literally Stan's only contribution was the dialogue which actually hinders the scene but Lee always felt was necessary to exposit to the younger readers
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>>77591978
>>77591990
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>>77591978
>>77591990
>>77591999

There it is. Probably the definitive Spider-Man sequence next to Gwen Stacy's end.
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>>77585585
Oh, well, thank goodness you had the strength to deigningly allude to it while feigning world-weariness. God knows how we'd have managed if you didn't step down from your ivory tower to quip at a blatant misreading, and a post that flat out admits the poster doesn't understand the quote. You really stemmed the tide, there.
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>>77584850
Woah, I was literally looking at this page 5 minutes ago, are you me?
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>>77584687
Infantino had a good sense of design but his layout tended to get crowded and busy at times while Kirby was just an animal using kinetic energy at the core force guiding the eyes through a page.

Shame about what Infantino did to Kirby. Guess he never like the guy, he gave him a chance but pulled the reins hard on New Gods when it wasn't selling and fucked over his Superman.

>>77585184
Moore used 9 grid in all of Watchmen

>pic related
Kirby normally used 6 and any mixture of 3 tiers so this fight scene is a rare thing but truly awesome.

Maybe something he learned from Ditko as those two were always influencing each other.
>>
>>77591990
>>77592012

This would had been so much better with no dialogue
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>>77591990
>>77592851
I don't know about that. I would agree he could have done with less of it though

I do like the, "I must be worthy of that strength" line cause it sounds something Ditko would write in Mr. A

The last two panels on this page could have done without the caption >>77591990

>>77591999
first three panels are good showcasing the crack and talking about Aunt May was a nice touch. Last huge panel 2 balloons could have been cut off just keep the, "Anyone can win a fight" line cause this sounds like Ditko

>>77592012
nice narration there by Lee, that little box sounds like every Bronze Age writer's prose in a comic. "I did it!" is debatable.
>>
>>77583121
Nah, the only ugly part of his art is his male faces
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>>77582826
> implying a more primative and simpler art style is bad
Sometimes adding details and extra lines makes shit worse.

Art style being simpler, or more "primative" as Adams calls it for some reason, does not make it better or worse.
>>
>>77584850
I like how Miller gets credit for doing so much of the shit Adams did years before.

Not that Miller isn't a big deal, but most casual fans seem to glaze over the 70s and think Frank Miller invented a dark Batman and dark comics in 1986 with DKR.
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>>77593560
DC's fault for not doing proper reprint collections of them.
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> be in line for Neal's autograph
> he starts talking about fossils and Earth sciences
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>>77593606
Does Adams have any other mad theories that he subscribes to which he can use for the Superman comic?
>>
>>77593606
>be line for Neal's autograph
>get to him
>find out you have to pay for it
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>>77593732
Weeeeeell, there is this

Also holy shit, who woulda thought I'd find one of the most level-headed discussions about the craft on this whole board in a fucking Neal Adams insanity thread
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>>77592813
>Shame about what Infantino did to Kirby. Guess he never like the guy
It wasn't jsut Kirby all of DC was in a rough spot during that time. Hell Infantino was the one that convinced Kirby to come over to DC
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>>77593560
You'll still see Adams get credit someplaces, Howard Chaykin and American Flagg are what really get glazed over
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>>77596536

Flagg needs good reprints. Fucking shame
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>>77596424
COUNTER EARTH!

May Neal Adams live for one thousand years!
>>
>>77592813

>Moore used 9 grid in all of Watchmen

Moore took the grid from Xaime Hernandez, 100 Rooms
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>>77596613
>what's a henway
This shit gets me every fucking time. The balls on this man...
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>>77596825
He defeated a monster by using a Marx Brothers joke.

I seriously hope something similar happens in the Superman comic.
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>>77596633

There is no chance Ditko's Dr. Strange wasn't Dave Gibbons' primary influence. The paneling, the mood, the colors, the tone, etc. are all classic Ditko.
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>>77597219


well it's idea vs execution.
I think Moore's namechecked 100 Rooms as an inspiration, maybe he meant for a long story?

but yeah probably both
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Is anyone other than Tom King using based 3x3 regularly?
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>>77598358
King draws Omega Men in addition to writing it?
>>
I know it's de rigeur to describe certain writers and artists as "crazy", but I honestly believe that Neal Adams needs some kind of medical help.
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>>77598604
Isn't he almost 80?
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>>77598518
No
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>>77598604

Why? Because he's a big mouth New Yorker with some wacky old man opinions? Who gives a shit, the guy's perfectly lucid and has tons of money and clearly has his shit together as well as any of us. People don't need to be locked up or hospitalized or doped up for being interesting just because you're boring.
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>>77598192
>>77596633
Moore names the grid as coming from Hernandez but remember that he takes inspiration from a lot of stuff and sometimes he doesn't get around to saying all of them. Like for instance Miracleman wasn't just Superfolks, there was also "Superduperman" from Mad and some other stuff. And LOEG was inspired from him and Melinda Gebbie working on Lost Girls and putting three literary characters together, but also from Moore's past reading of Philip Jose Farmer, among other things. So I wouldn't doubt Ditko was an influence on Moore and/or Gibbons. Especially since they had to probably familiarize themselves a little with the Charlton characters before it got turned into all-new characters instead.
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>>77598626
No, he's 74.
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>>77598626
He's 75 next June.
>>77598680
>the guy's perfectly lucid
>clearly has his shit together as well as any of us
Have you READ his recent stuff? Half his pages are full of characters rambling on about fucking nothing, and most of it feels like an Adolf Wölfli painting put into words... and it breaks my heart, because his Green Lantern/Green Arrow helped get me into comics when I was in my teens. I still consider Superman vs Muhammad Ali to be one of the greatest comics ever made, and all he does now is bang on about how the Earth is hollow and hydrogen cars.

I don't think he's going to hurt anyone, but he's going to get worse before he gets better. If he gets better.
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>>77598518
No but he has full scripts that include the grids
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>>77583224
>>77583242
>>77583268
>>77583281

ugh, who cares anyway nerd lol
>>
>>77598968
Don't be so spergy
>>
>>77598740

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply it was just 100 Rooms, just that's what I remember as being name checked.

this thread makes me want neil adams storytimes, is that Omnibus of his Batstuff good? Or shitty recolors? cause I fear the recolors
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>>77598867
Odyssey is the definitive Batman comic of our time.
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>>77582495
What a thing to say! What an octopus of a thing to say!
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>>77600100
>>
>>77598358
Gillen uses 2x4 a lot
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>>77599819
>That's not Riddler
>OH FUCK IT IS!
World's Greatest Detective, everyone.
>>
>>77600344
No, it is a guy named Reuben Blades, who looks just like the Riddler.
Thread posts: 120
Thread images: 38


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