Didnt really know where to shove this question but Where are

I consider myself part of both worlds. Western fashion subcultures often are attached to music subgenres, so that could be why there are many gothic lolitas who don't really care for the western idea of goth.

idk if you put this in the right spot either, hoping it doesnt get deleted. When I wear lolita, I only where black coords and when Im in my 'normie' clothes, I dress western goth. SOmetimes the two intersect a little (adding goth elements to a kuro coord, or making my western goth outfits a little more 'girly' etc) but I don't really think of them as being all that similar, even if the colorscheme is.

I think the rift comes from a difference in attitudes. Lolitas tend to be a little uptight, strict rules followers etc and most western goths Ive met are a lot more lax, almost apathetic about things. They just dont give any fucks, but lolitas seem to give a fuck about everything.

Just my two cents

I'm sure there are still people out there who dabble in both, but as far as I know, most tend to be older Lolitas who got into lolita via Goth music/fashions/sub-culture rather than younger ones who got into it through anime/cons. Older Gothic Lolitas tend to keep to themselves rather than expose themselves frequently on social media, usually as protection from their work life.

>Are there any Goths who just happen to be into lolita?
Yes. From where I'm at, there is a pretty strong goth scene, but it's really fragmented into a lot of small goth sub-cultures. I was always a trad goth/deathrocker, but through weeby interests found Lolita and just considered it really charming. Of course 99% of the time I wear gothic lolita, but it doesn't interfere with my other interests and I've seen many people in my local goth scene who are interested in it, also find it charming, and a few that participate as well. It's true, though, that it is kept pretty separate from other goth interests.

>Why do you think there is such a rift between the western / regular goth scene and gothic lolitas?
Westerners like to tout the goth scene as being this all-inclusive community of accepted weirdos and that isn't the case. There is just as much cattiness, exclusivity, and elitism in the goth scene as any others, and many who don't like lolita like to make it known that it's not "real goth" or "good goth", so they disassociate with it. There is the rift because of the cliquishness of western goth, not that that's a terrible/unseen thing in any subculture, though.

>Any people you know.of who happen to be apart of both worlds/ subcultures?
Myself, for one, and a few others in the local goth scene as well. However, I met the other lolitas who are in the goth scene through lolita, not through the local scene. The two scenes don't cross over much, but rather are kept separate, even when the individual is in both.

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>>8986996
True, but there is also a general western goth style that never seems to be mixed in with the gothic lolita style. But I guess gothic lolitas tend to just like the aesthetic of the fashion instead of actually liking any dark culture/ not interested in turning it into some sort of lifestyle?

Honestly I was just thinking about this because of that one voltaire music video with all the lolitas in the background , which made me think why sont these two sides intersect more?

Ive also seen the malice mizer / moi dix moitie concert videos in europe where the two scenes intersect some but thats about it...

I think a big problem is that western goth is ageing. When I still used to go to clubs and festivals, the number of younger goths getting involved pretty noticeably slowed to a trickle with less and less new faces every year. A lot of the younger alt types were getting into Tumblr goth or other alt subcultures instead, or just going normie. Then you have steampunk competing for the older geeky crowd.

Lolita has a really young fanbase in comparison. There may just not be a lot of room for crossover on the Venn diagram.

I'm a goth who wears lolita, myself. I have known a lot of people who were both or were at least lolita-curious, but it was a lot more common years ago when gothic lolita was just starting to get reported on in alt press.

>>8987012
Two cents of a gothic lolita not into gothic: I love the aesthetic of it, but the culture doesn't suit me and I don't like goth music. Quite like you said. I love the gothic aesthetic, just not for everyday.

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>>8987018
Thinking about this a little further , but the age group difference is a huge factor of why the two are so separate . Lolita does have a way younger group since it tends to have association with Japan/anime and that's what the kiddies are into nowa days . Western goth doesn't seem to have anything new and shiny that'll interest the youth. Maybe we need another music explosion or maybe the goth scene needs to be friendlier to the youth since a lot of goth action tends to be in clubs.

>>8987004
> many who don't like lolita like to make it known that it's not "real goth" or "good goth", so they disassociate with it

Which is really sad honestly , especially considering the fact that Victorian goth s are a thing! You would think people would like to push the two groups together a bit.

>>8986991
There are a lot. DomesticatedGoth in Scotland is in the lolita community as well, Gravelvet in Scotland and polyphonic-image in Leeds are goths outside lolita, FilleDePorcelaine in Germany is a goth outside lolita, Caro Dee (of fyheahlolita) was a goth before lolita and still considers herself in both. I'm sure there are plenty of others who are full-time goths but don'[t have an online presence.

I consider myself part of both subcultures, but mostly because I'm into the music. I'm not a full-time goth and I only dress in gothic normie wear once every couple of weeks these days, partly because I haven't really invested money into my gothic wardrobe since I got into lolita so it's barely evolved since my teen years.

>>8987028
Sometimes I feel a little sad for the future of the goth scene. It does seem to be ageing without much new blood, and it's quite possible that the exclusivity and disdain for "baby bats" has played a part in that. Mostly I think the attitude of youth is different now, and they don't tie themselves down strictly to one subculture. The whole "nu-goth" thing is, much as I dislike the aesthetic, a bit of a response to "to be a ~true goth~ you have to be a 100% dedicated lifestyler who has been here since the 80s" thing, basically going "fuck you I don't want to be part of your movement anyway."

When I was in high school there were a lot of emos and only one or two goths per school. The emos have all grown out of their phase and are now normie. My younger sister's school has no goths at all, just alt kids who flit from one scene to another.

In some ways, I appreciate being able to dress in multiple styles without being labelled a poser, but it also seems that barely anyone is exclusively dedicating themselves to goth like in the past.

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>>8987035
Can't believe I've never seen her around (or maybe I have I'm not good at remembering names) but gravelvets outfits are lovely! Thanks for the list of names. And for some reason I didn't know file de was a goth outside of lolita, I thought she was just in general alt fashion

>>8987056
This so hard. The older goth scene can be unbelievably snobby/exclusive and scoffs at anything they see impure to their definition of goth. I know that that has certainly turned a lot of younger goths off to the scene, and with the internet and availability of information, younger goths aren't confined to their subculture as much and can explore other interests/goth styles while still having a major interest overall. I don't think older goths understand that and keep a lot of people out because of it, so you can be a total trad goth that appreciates and does lolita on the side, and you'll be labeled a poser by the older "know all, end all" crowd because they don't understand it/will call it fake goth.

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>>8987056
>>8987074
Both older goths and Lolita tend to have that snobby "dress in this way/ do this or your not so and so" group. Yet what makes the goth snobbery different to the Lolita snobbery ? Is it just the fact that goths require more of a lifestyle commitment than Lolita's do?

Also I forgot to post up that Voltaire music video with the Lolita's in it. It's pretty cute but the Lolita's are a little hard to catch
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ_ZQkV58Cc

>>8987080
That's basically it. Also, have you been involved in the goth scene in a major city before? It's layers of drama on drama that BtB could only dream about.

If you look on youtube there are quite a few vloggers who are full time goths who also wear lolita on a regular basis. Gravelvet, Fille de Porcelaine. LadyMeilin, Rose Nocturnalia are a couple...I think Black Friday, Kazlovesbats, and Toxic Tears also used to wear gothic lolita.

>>8987074
Goth snobbery is even more picky than lolita snobbery in my experience. Lolitas will nitpick you for your outfits and that's basically where it ends.

It depends on your local scene, but goths will nitpick your favourite music genre, the bands you like from that genre, your clothes, your makeup, the colours you wear, your piercings or tattoos (or lack thereof)...not to mention whether you dress all ubergoth 24/7 vs. only when you're at events or clubs. It's no wonder babybats get turned the fuck off and leave the subculture after a couple years.

A lot of older goths really dislike gothic lolita as well, which doesn't help.

>>8987080
It's true that both older lolitas and goths have a lot of the snobbery, but pretty much what >>8987085
and
>>8987094
said, it's much heavier in goth. Outfit nitpicks happen in lolita, and to some extent personal life, but goths will go at each other for their tastes in everything. No one in lolita really cares what you do outside of lolita, or what music you listen to, tv shows you like, what you wear outside of lolita, etc., but goths do; they'll nitpick you for your entire way of life/personal tastes in anything. It's all a big 'ole dick-measuring contest to see who's the best undisputed lifestyler of them all.

>>8987080
>Is it just the fact that goths require more of a lifestyle commitment than Lolita's do?
Basically this. Lolitas are more rule-bound than goths, but they are much more accepting of people in the fashion dabbling in other styles. Probably the majority of lolitas are interested in other jfashions or in normie fashion and wearing, say, fairy kei or CPK as casualwear when you can't wear lolita is actively encouraged. Whereas in goth, you're expected to wear gothic or black clothes pretty much all the time unless you have a work uniform. Some goths will accept dabbling in other dark and affiliated fashions, like punk, rivethead or gothic lolita but some trugoth types don't like the inclusion of those fashions in their club either.

The west abandoned the lifestyle aspects of lolita being compulsory after the 00s, and most people nowadays treat it as "just a fashion" or "just clothes", but goth in some ways is about the lifestyle. It originated from a music scene so if you don't like that music, you're not a goth. If you don't dress darkly 24/7, you're not a goth. If you aren't into gothic decor, you're not a goth. With lolita, the fashion is so different from the mainstream that it doesn't need to rely on a lifestyle to separate itself from the pack. With goth, aspects of the fashion are similar to emo, similar to high fashion in all-black, etc, and the way goths separate themselves out from superficially similar trends is through a heavy emphasis on lifestyle.

Out of resentment at periodic high-fashion adoption of gothic styling as the latest trend, goths tend to label anyone who doesn't wear goth full-time as a trendhopping poseur, thus excluding anyone who likes the aesthetic but doesn't want to dedicate themselves to it exclusively.

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>>8987085
I live in FL which isn't the greatest place for lovers of darker fashion. since BTB is running dry would you mind spilling the milk on any drama in your scene?

>>8987136
Milk like this isnt that interesting without context. Its all petty personal drama.

For example Black Friday has some drama with the fact that she dumped the guy she was engaged with so she can live in Germany since it is her dream (goth version of living in Japan). She quickly got into a new relationship with someone there and they got married recently, but she still is salty about her ex now moving on and dating some other goth girl. But this is a youtuber who is known, most drama is similar but with random locals.

>>8987136
It's a different kind of drama. We had a guy who was using photography as a way to target underage girls for sex, in addition to the occasional rape/accusation and junkie drama. Then you had the polyamory dodecahedrons, people stealing peoples' boyfriends, and the one time one girl accused another girl of jacking her style, turning the whole scene against her.

>>8987035
There's noble-of-shadows on tumblr as well, and I think some of the gothic lolita lifestylers (like Sable Hi) are pretty goth outside of it but I'm not sure.

I know a couple of goths without on online presence in comms as well. Even though they self-identify as goths, I know that some of the people here who've been named as goths don't participate in club or scene aspects of the subculture much for the reasons in this thread.

>>8987028
>Which is really sad honestly , especially considering the fact that Victorian goth s are a thing! You would think people would like to push the two groups together a bit.
There's a bit of the reverse among lolitas though, looking down on Victorian goth because so much of it *is* tacky and low-quality. I used to be into Victorian goth and basically abandoned it once I discovered how much nicer quality the stuff in gothic lolita and aristo was, and I know others that have done the same. So the goths think the lolitas are prudish and obsessed with rules, and the lolitas think that without the framework of rules a lot of the goths look like shit.

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in addition to others mentioned, Scarfingscarves on YouTube is a rivethead goth who wears sweet lolita. her vids are more about the goth scene than lolita so far.

>Any people you know.of who happen to be apart of both worlds/ subcultures?
*a part, fyi, apart has the opposite meaning.

i am involved in the goth scene loosely, but i prefer the industrial/EBM side. i have lived in two states (US) where the goth clubs play a mix of genres, and i have not personally experienced the "you are not a real goth!" thing. there are different types of goth and maybe the tradgoths/romantics look down on rivetheads and cybergoths and others, but they haven't done it to my face, and no one leaves the dance floor when a nongoth and nonindustrial band like Nine Inch Nails comes.

i like Siouxsie and all but i can't dance to postpunk reverb, put on something angry and stompy.

>more about the intersection
i get along better with goths than lolitas because of the lifestyle element. goth isn't a fashion, it is a subculture. when it comes to jfash, visual kei may be the closest thing to a subculture the West has, because of its associated music scene. but even then, what is even a "visual kei lifestyler"?

I've been a card carrying goth for 11 years, other than my work shirts, all my clothes are black, jewel tones, grey and white. I have a large collection of 80s goth bands on vinyl, collect antique books, study cemeteries and have cuddly bats hanging from my ceiling. I am a walking goth cliche and I love it.

However, when I go clubbing I'm the youngest person in the room by the best part of 20 years, so I found it hard to make friends with similar interests.

Got into lolita because I loved the aesthetic, stayed because I love my comm and snarking with a bunch of frilly 20 and 30 somethings that I actually have a ton in common with.

Since I started buying lolita though I've become a LOT more critical of the quality of lace on gothic clothes lol!

>>8987347
I can relate to this. I've been to goth clubs with other gothic lolitas and never faced any hostility, but there were never more than a couple of other goths under 30 in the room.

>>8987772
I've never been clubbing with other lolitas- hope to this year though. I used to go with one of my alt friends before she moved to Germany, and I miss it. However I don't miss people saying 'you're like the same age as my kid' all night, esp. when their kid is like 13...

I know of plenty of goths who are also gothic lolitas. Personally, while I consider myself a classic/gothic lolita, I've never been a part of the western gothic subculture because I've never been into gothic music.

I primarily wear trad/romantic goth, with a few deathrock looks thrown in here and there. Lolita is more of a hobby for me, but I do go for AP uber sweet. The goth scene here is pretty small now days, most had their heyday in the early 90s. I haven't experienced any elitism, but I also don't go clubbing very often (all our clubs here are pretty meh). I'm not really friends with many otherst my age, which is where I mostly see the "holier than thou" attitude coming from. Everyone in the scene that knows I wear lolita either don't care, or they think it's cute.

Most of my friends and I used to be into goth back in high school. I guess we were babybats? I'm into the music and ~aesthetic~ but absolutely not into clubbing. The others were really into clubbing (and getting underage drunk) and dressed the part mostly to freak out the normies. They've all grown out of that behaviour but have also grown out of goth as a result. One even married a super Catholic girl and they have three kids now.
I never managed to make friends with more long-term goths. I still don't go clubbing. Sometimes I attend events but get the feeling that people see me as either a normie tag-along or a poser for not being übergoth 24/7.

>>8987247
This is true as well. I sometimes tag along with my one remaining alt friend to clothing stores and I can't help but cringe a bit at how low quality yet overpriced most of that stuff is. It's really awkward when the shopkeeper comes up to me with a piece of clothing made of thin crinkly faded cotton with scratchy raschel lace tacked on and tries to sell it to me for €50 because she thinks it would go well with my Moitie dress. There's only so many ways you can politely turn someone down before you get a reputation as a snobby bitch.
Are there even any goth brands known for being really good quality? I can only think of corset makers. I guess with goth, the people really concerned with quality have learned how to make their stuff themselves.

I'm a massive Goth. I got into Goth back in 2005, didn't discover Lolita until 2006. I fell in love with the fashion but being a Goth is just easier for me :) I really love dressing in Gothic Lolita fashion as I find it complements the style I already have.

>>8988336
I think the top quality goth brands are small indie designers like Kambriel. Outside of shops like that, I haven't had much luck with higher quality stuff on par with the EGA stuff from Boz, Moitie, etc). Most goth stuff you buy online is cheaply manufactured with crap materials. All of the best-dressed Victorian goths I've seen usually make or commission a lot of their clothing.

>>8988460
I don't know where you can get non-commissioned Victorian goth stuff that's good quality, but there are goth casualwear brands that are on a par with normal high street stuff. Places like Heavy Red and some of the stuff Restyle sells.

When I got back into dressing goth I ended up using second-hand jgoth stuff as the "statement" pieces in my wardrobe. Alice Auaa, h.Naoto and so on.

I have been dressing in both goth and lolita fashions for over 10 years at this point. I think unlike most commenting here, I prefer the lolita community in my area to the goth scene here. The lolitas are pretty chill with minimal drama, and the goth scene is just absolutely horrendous and drama filled. Everyone acts like a 10 year old edgelord. I personally prefer the fluidity of goth fashions but not so much the rigidity of the lifestyle aspect.

>>8988460
>>8988725
Seconding these recommendations.

Also keep an eye out for older All Saints stuff secondhand, a lot of my statement pieces used to be from them, sadly I'm no longer a UK size 6 so I need to hunt out replacements myself. Sadly I don't like the newer stuff as much- too shapeless.

>>8989035
Aww man I used to love All Saints a few years ago but couldn't afford any of their stuff. I went back recently and was really disappointed at how much their style had changed.

>>8986991
Started as western goth in teens, found lolita again in early 20s, and it actually rekindled my love of western goth stuff that had faded a bit. The scene was getting super cliquey and I got fucking sick of it.

I still love western goth stuff but the weebs are much chiller than a lot of the western goth scene. Always feels like they're trying to outdo each other and it's just retarded.Trad goths running up to lolitas and demanding they recite the Sisters of Mercy discography or something just reminds me of those neckbeards at cons who quiz female cosplayers.

>>8988772
Just wondering, which group is bigger in terms of numbers? Is there a discernable difference in average age of members, or range of ages?

I feel like my lolita community has been growing big in terms of members (they're allowing fans of the fashion into the facebook group, and former lolitas still lurk). Yet drama also has steadily increased over the past few years, and meets are becoming more infrequent.

>>8987003
Older goth lolita who started out in western goth here and this is all true. Most of the older lolitas I know don't really post a whole lot of lolita related stuff on their social media.

>>8986991
there never used to be, some of the earliest western lolitas were mainly from the western goth scene and found out about gothic lolita through coverage of gothic fashion in Japan. The somewhat infamous article at Morbid Outlook which was one of the very first western articles about the fashion is first and foremost a western goth-zine:

http://www.morbidoutlook.com/fashion/articles/2002_07_gothiclolita.html

Anyway anon, I wouldn't call it a rift exactly, just that as well as goths into lolita fashion, as it has gained popularity many have discovered the style through coverage of Japanese street fashion as well as Harajuku type kawaii culture etc rather than through goth scenes directly.

>>8990752
>http://www.morbidoutlook.com/fashion/articles/2002_07_gothiclolita.html
What year is this article from? I remember reading it years ago and completely forgot about it until I saw your post! Blast from the past.

>>8990758
anon... the year and month of publication are in the link...

>>8988336
Atelier Pierrot has good long skirts too.

>>8990853
Well then... Can't get much lower than this...

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>>8991068
that means you can only rise from here

>pic unrelated, Fille de Porcelaine combining lolita and Western goth

more examples of genre-bending requested, i feel this topic could use illustrations

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>>8991291
It's Black Friday's Mana-influenced look (even no longer lolita, she idolizes him)

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>>8991293
Gravelvet in a vampire photoshoot, ouji ish

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>>8991302
>thumbnail

herp derp

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>>8991305
DomesticatedGoth

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>>8991306
a more solidly Lolita look of hers

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>>8991308
polyphonic-image

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>>8991310
made this Scarfingscarves comparison

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>>8991318
Rose Nocturnalia rocking hair a lot of lolitas would not even think of doing

>>8987162
This still kinda bugs me. I feel bad for Mr. Owl.

>>8991310
That's me! A really basic early coord I'm not happy with looking back at it- wasn't an intentional mix of Western goth and lolita. I do wear casual goth day to day though. I'm honestly not keen on mixing the two - I prefer the rules, polish and quality of lolita.

>>8991580
they're still friends. not that breaking up wasn't sad, but they are still friends. i think people exaggerate the relationship drama, he's has two girlfriends since they broke up, he's looking after her cat until she can take it to Germany, etc.

>>8991601
i love your full gothic lolita coords! keep doing you

>>8991605
>has
*had

>Where are all the gothic gothic lolitas?
I'm in my early thirties and have been in the gothic subculture since I was eighteen. I wear gothic lolita almost exclusively outside of work because of concerns wrt quality that other gulls have already posted about. I don't get to participate much in my local goth scene because I work nights and most weekends/holidays -- pretty much all the active club days.
>Why the rift between western goth abd GL?
'Goth club' is exclusive and a lot of us are fussy about mixing genres. Lifestyle seems to matter a lot less to lolita and lifestyle is an important part of the western goth scene. Music is a huge part of that.
>Any people you know of who happen to be apart of both worlds/ subcultures?
I am the only one I pesonally know of. There are some online personalities that do both.

Gothic lolita with an almost fully black wardrobe outside of lolita but, I just don't get goth. Reading this thread, I'm pretty sure it's just because I'm young. I've never known goths, I wouldn't know where to find a local scene if there was one even though the idea appeals to me as I wasn't really able to connect with the lolita comm in my area, no fault of theirs at all. I also don't care at all for goth music, I listen to whiny 90s emo and semi-obscure not-really-punk bullshit, which I'm pretty sure there's not even a scene for.

>>8991605
Its a lot of petty drama she actually instigates. She is the one posting on her fb about the most recent gf, causing shit with the local people she knew. She clearly isnt over the dude but somehow got married anyways so that itself leads to some drama..etc.

>>8993890
Tbh you dont need to be into the music to be a goth, I think some people get way too into this strict definition of you need to like x to be a proper goth that gets into elistism and people avoiding expanding their interests to stay 'goth'. Like Sebastian columbine has a video about how she hasnt been calling herself goth for a few years because she got too anal about this image being a 'goth' and not herself who is into that stuff.