What are those high-end finance jobs like?

What kind of high-end finance job?

If you're referring to investment banking - mostly miserable. You're well paid but you will be working 6 days a week 7 am until 10 pm every day without being given the time to take leave (unless you really fight for it) until you become more senior.

>>1705409
How much do you think is median salary?

>>1705461
Median salary at bulge bracket investment banks i'd guess is around ~$120-150k. Keep in mind that bankers generally only gain around half of their compensation from their salary and the median all in compensation is probably around 200k.

The starting compensation straight out of college is around 100-130k all-in depending on who you're working for e.g. GS generally pay at a discount to market, BAML typically pays at a premium.

>>1705473
How hard is it to find a job as a finance major? Should I go for a MBA or LLM?

>>1705487
Depends entirely on the country you live in and how good the university you attend is.

>>1705400
Bump for interest

>>1705505
If I live in Texas, what universities would be good for a financial career?

>>1705473

median salary at which level ? It ramps up alot, also dude is talking only about IBD (one side of an investment bank) and not about markets (where historically the real money has been made).

Markets jobs are usually market hours +-2hrs (really early mornings but out by 6pm).

If youre good youll get paid monopoly money, the heads of a trading desk across BBs make $1-5mm per year easy, and thats not THAT senior.

Also everyone whos anyone in IBD jumps over to an HF in a few years where you make $300k+ at entry level (if you go to a decent AUM fund) and at the top level it really is fucking unlimited (usually agreements to take 10% of profits, running a $500m-$1bn book and you make 10%, you do the math).

99% of humanity has no idea how easily the real money is made and go chasing to be a doctor or engineer or lawyer.

>>1705473
>>1707178
Why the high salary?

>>1707178
>markets
What do you mean by markets exactly? What kind of finance positions are involved in the market?

Also, what would you recommend I get my master's in? I'm going to be studying finance as an undergrad.

>>1707158
No offense but just check US News though its a bit shitty now its a good baseline. Probably UT>TT>Baylor

>>1707223

Cause you make alot more money for the firm. I sat on a STIR trading desk at one of the big investment banks.

The head of their desk (who was super young, made head of desk in late 20s/early 30s) made $90m for the firm in one year during the crisis, the whole rates team made $700m.

>>1707252

Like financial markets dude, bond markets, forex, interest rates, equity options, ABS, CDS, anything you can think of.

Any financial product that exists in the world today is driven by investment banks, they make this whole world work.

Dont do finance as an undergrad, do STEM.
Then do a masters in STEM too.

Alot of HFs dont hire finance ugrads, Renaissance Technologies (best HF in the world on par with Soroses Quantum Fund, 30% annualised returns possst fees for decades) has specifically said they dont hire economists or finance people.

>>1705400
pretty hellish if you've read any book ever written on them.

>>1707252
He probably means sales and trading, debt capital markets, equity capital markets etc.

>>1707276
who do they hire? what do you mean master in stem? why would a bank hire an engineer?

Finishing up an Aerospace bachelor's with a minor in CS. Have internship and research experience in data modeling. GPA is mediocre tho and my school is a decent US public school. What would my chances be of getting into the finance market?

>>1707286

Well the guy that founded it is a mathematician that used to work as a code breaker for the US goverment and has mathematical medals.

He decided to pass it on to the two brothers that used to run IBMs voice AI research project.

Banks like STEM people (like engineers) because markets side of finance ranges from high school level math to literal cutting edge pushing the envelope of human mathematical knowledge.

>>1707325
What type of degrees would be helpful to banks then?

>>1707318
Also thinking I might try and do a masters in data science. Is this a meme degree, or would that be attractive to banks?

>>1707332

Im gonna take a detour here and say study what you actually like (within reason) and if you want finance youll get it.

Ive seen division heads with Masters in Medieval history.

Finance doesnt lend itself to the mentality alot of other careers of 'study this thing you hate to make alot of money' like engineering or law or medicine, which is weird and counter intuitive I know.

A PhD in Math wont get you into a bank or make alot of money if you dont love and live and breath finance, youll make 'good' money (low $X00,000 per year) but you'll never make real money.

Soros studied philosophy, Kovner of Caxton Associates used to drive a cab, I worked with traders that hadn't gone to universsity at all (although thats almost completely died out now).

>>1707339

Low, you got a good degree but low GPA and non-target uni + no internships in finance.

Gonna have to make it up with genuine enthusiasm and passion about finance, hunger still goes for alot in this business.

>>1707178
>HF
Hudge fund?

>>1707351
Worth a shot I guess, how drastically to my chances improve if I get a STEM masters at a European uni like ETH?

>>1707389

Quite a fair bit, ETH is well recognised, but in Europe. Doesn't even have to be STEM, can be a softer transitionary subject.

If you wanna break into US you'd be better with a Masters from a top US school.

>>1707353
yep

http://www.forbes.com/hedge-fund-managers/

This is what I mean about about monopoly money. Thats how much they made IN ONE YEAR.

There is, an there has never been, any other industry in this world that will get you so rich in such a short amount of time at this probability of success.

>>1707393
Financially and gradewise my chances in the US are pretty low. Have EU citizenship so a EU masters is much more in reach. Might also just try to get into software development for 1-2 years in the US and try to do a masters after that.

>>1707398
>what is billionaire tech ceo

>>1707398

>500,000,000 on 2 paintings

Not saying he's obligated, but wouldn't it be cool to have everyone working toward advancing humanity into the technologically absurd as fast as possible?

Kinda embarrassing when people do shit like that. It's your money, doesn't belong to anyone else. But lol, man... Spend it on something worthwhile.

>>1707413
Maybe those paintings will be worth more in the future? It seems like a weird artisitic asset if that is the case.

>>1707342
>if you dont love and live and breath finance
Basically looking at financial websites?

>>1707408
Speaking of making money off tech, how much money did m00t make with 4chan?

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>>1705400
What? Analyst contractor? Starting salary something like 60-70k in europe in best paying banks like jpm or goldman

then it doubles + 100k annual bonus after about 3 years if you make it.

1/4 makes the first cut, for the rest it's over.

>>1707408

How many of those are there versus how many billionaires and centi-millionaires finance has made, go on do the numbers, I know the answer, I already have.

Its also a number of relative probabilities.

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Hedgefunds pay better, the ladder is easier, the jobs are more fun. It's actually investing unlike "investment bank" jobs. They even receice application way less because most people do not know shit about investing they just go to school and then apply to the major banks.

>>1707440

No, like being able to talk intelligently to a PM about multiple asset markets globally, like having views where US 2s5s10s swap is going, what you think will happen with EUR/CZK and if playing a 1y ATMF put vs buying the 6mnth/1y fwd is a good or bad idea.
If vols on USD/CNH are fair given deval risks.

I mean being able to impress someone who does this for a living, not reguritate the half chewed crap some journo writes on a finance website, thats a given, you have to go above and beyond that.

>>1707413

Ken's crazy

Dude rented out the fucking Versailles Palace for his wedding.
No one has ever done that.

>>1705409
You hate that job anyway. Your father practically owns the company I don't know why you don't just quit

>>1707408

Also your money as a finance guy is much more liquid than your money as a tech billionaire CEO which is locked up in the shares of your company.

Crystallising that means potentially losing control of your company or crashing the share price. Paper billionaire is very different to liquid billionaire.

Elon Musk may be a billionaire but he's had liquidity issues in the past. Alot of IPO based billionaires do.

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>>1707444
Probably not a lot. He wanted out and wanted to sell to a very specific person so he took whatever was offered.
>>1707482
>Ken's crazy
Obviously. I mean fucking look at him. Not to mention that he's divorced now.

>>1707413
>advancing humanity
Precisely the opposite of what (((they))) want.

>>1707342
First of all: ''In 1947, Soros immigrated to England and became a student at the London School of Economics''.

Second, how is getting a degree ''died out now''. I don't see a lawyer, doktor or engineer skipping the uni.

>>1707546
I think he was saying it used to be possible to get hired as a trader without a degree, now you have to have a degree

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>>1707467
How do you find Hedge Fund jobs? Don't you need to be well connected? Could you go into more detail?

What degrees (e.g. BA/BS or graduate) and field of studies are required?

I realize that most of this is google-able (and I've been researching it), but it sounds as though you speak from experience or know someone who has gone this route.

>>1707553
>>1707546

Yeah that, also he went to the London School of Economics to study Philosophy

I graduated from LSE, its not all economics don.

>>1707561

>you sound like you speak from expirience
>that post

The dude doesnt even know the difference between volatility funds and volatility targetting funds.

How much of a chance do I have to get into IBD or capital markets if my shitty state uni only has alumni in corporate, government, private banking and shitty sales/wagecuck or risk management positions in major national banks?

Should I get an MBA or go to a private school for another degree?

I'm not American nor European btw

>>1707477
Where do you learn about such things?

>>1707503
It amazes me how moot managed not to make a good amount of money even with a popular app and website.

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>>1707700
>The dude doesnt even know the difference between volatility funds and volatility targetting funds.
What is the difference?

>>1707477
good resources to learn finance? been watching shkreli's finance lessons... but i doubt that will cut it

you sound like you know your shit, unlike most 18 year old roleplayers (who probably get all their knowledge from mergers and inquisitions)

i truly find all this interesting. thanks a lot for your contributions to /biz/

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>>1707561
>How do you find Hedge Fund jobs? Don't you need to be well connected? Could you go into more detail?

Well, that's exactly the thing. Majority of hf companies are not known for the public, like in a complete dark. And many might prefer it that way. But hey, Everybody knows the banks tho.

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>>1707700
>The dude

yo dude

>>1707561
Most of a hedge funds consist a handful of people. It's not a bulge bank with 50k employees and the global presence.

>>1707178
IBD?

>>1707861
Investment Banking Division.
He meant Mergers and Acquisitions.

Sales and Trading (aka markets) is a part of IBD too.

If you consider the hours you work you are paid a hourly wage less than a nurse. Even less if you factor in overtime hours.

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>>1707856
This was my idea of them and I long considered them not even a viable option as a career path. Looks like I fell for the meme trap he layed. Regardless, I appreciate the replies.

>>1707178
>Wishful thinking: the post
You don't post "top 25 biggest earning Music stars" and then expect simple people with a music degree to make as much.

You will most likely have a wageslave shit job.

>>1707922

being head of a trading desk and making 5 mil is not 'Top 25 biggest earners'

I posted top 25 biggest earners in HFs and they make something more like 500 mil.

Thats the point, even making it avg in the industry is multiple millions.

>>1707890
>>1707856

There are alot of HFs out there, if you're good you will make it into one, if you're really good youll raise your own capital.

>>1707867
>>1707861

Actually M&A is a subset of IBD in most banks as IBD also includes DCM and ECM

The sales and trading side is usually called 'Global Markets' or similar hence why i called it generically markets


>>1707848
Hedge Funds are not THAT secretive, Citadel (Ken Griffins fund), AQR, Winton, Bridgewater, CQS, I could go on

All these places run grad schemes that hire straight out of university and also post jobs on their websites

Theres also hundreds of small places that may just be a website but theres enough big funds out there

>>1707783>>1707834

Well Ive worked both buy side and sell side in markets and had my head in the game for atleast half a decade, but I'm still a complete noob.
Its a mixture of books, websites like you said, trading your own money. Mainly books though.

Its a slow process, you have to learn how to think like an investor.
The steps are kind of, understanding financial markets, then reading about succesful investors and how they think about investing, then a long process of trial and error in developing your own views that never really ends.

>>1707804
Vol targetting funds run an asset mixture where an asset classes weight is decided by its desired contribution to an overall risk profile.

e.g a bond equity mix where your weights are decided by having equal vol contributions from equities and bonds (means typically youll lever up on bond allocation as bonds are less volatile)

Vol funds are funds that actually trade volatility as an asset class (VIX futures and associated VIX ETFs, variance and dispersion swaps etc).

>>1707977
What do you think the best performers in 2017 will be?

I'm bullish on oil, corp bonds and property.
IMO higher inflation expectations will drive rotation into riskier assets with higher yield. But all could get instantly nixed by a single tweet from Trump.

>>1708085
>I'm bullish on oil

Short Mexican oil. Only good way to have a significant investment in a commodity this quarter.

>But all could get instantly nixed by a single tweet from Trump.

Oh yeah. Fucking madman drove boeing to hell

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IBD analyst (M&A) here. It's a hellhole, but my total comp for my first year was $150,000 at age 23. Pic related is my bonus deposit after taxes.

It is a fucking hellhole

>>1707178
>99% of humanity has no idea how easily the real money is made

Alot of us know.

Why the fuck do you think bankers are called leeches and are hated by all da niggers?

>>1708186
What degree and qualifications did you Acquire to help you get the job?

>>1708171
Why short Mexican oil?

>>1708217
2nding
Having trouble getting any traction. I've sent in a couple dozen applications but no results.

The Job market is so competitive, get amazing grades and you need to work your ass off. I have a bachelors in Finance and I couldn't land a Finance related job other than being stock broker a AXA. People with MBA's are the ones getting the Entry level positions. at the legit companies

Whats the thoughts on investment opeations side of stuff? More back room stuff

>>1708217
>>1708253

>>1708258

This. In all honesty it's all just luck and who you know. The chances improve if you go to a better school, network a ton, and get great grades.

Anybody with a good work ethic can succeed as a junior banker - it's not challenging work, just demanding. Just understand how a cash flow statement works and be able to answer technical questions regarding this (google investment banking interview questions) and you'll do fine in a technical interview. They know you're clueless as an analyst - the bank basically teaches you everything.

>>1708282
But I'm small town small school with no network. How do I even get the interview

>>1707884
Nurses make 200k a year doing 50 hours a week?

>>1708292
Establish a good LinkedIn profile, message employers etc.. You really want to drive views to your profile.

>>1708342
Any links on how to do that? I really hate networking so I'm not good at it

>>1708351

threads on wallstreetoasis cover this topic in great detail. Don't know the success rate though.

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>>1708292
Being Jewish helps. They have deep networks.

>>1708355
Every thread I've ever seen tehre is just like, "Bro, just cold call random people at banks, it totally works!" without any kind of follow up on who to contact or what to say when you do.

>>1708378

Well fuck I don't know start your life over and go to Harvard/Princeton/Wharton and get a shitty job in finance working 25 hours a day for a dickhead kike of a boss making less than minimum wage.

Then hope to christ you're one in a thousand analysts that get an offer to go into a shitty PE firm or a hedge fund before your 2 year contract expires otherwise you'll be put on the next plane to Idaho where you'll be making $50k a year at some wagecuck job with a fat wife, 3 kids, and a mortgage.

Shit man figure it out I dont know. sharks

>>1708397
Yeah see that's not helpful and is basically what I'm talking about. They say something abstract and never offer any details. If I knew who to contact or what to say I wouldn't be asking for help in the first place.

>>1708406
That's because 90% of them are parroting things they've read instead of offering advice based on experience.

The successful analysts are spending their time with 17 year olds on wall street oasis lmao.

>>1708409
Kind of what I always figured. I feel like I'm going to be stuck working retail the rest of my life at this point. I couldn't even get a damn internship.

>>1708292
Best if you live in a densely populated area close to a city, best example is somewhere near NYC. But honestly just go into engineering, mathematics, or computer science. You can go into Finance related career with those majors, and you will guaranteed be much more intelligent than any business grad.

>>1708486
Look man bend don't break, get a decent office job. I majored in Finance now I work at a marketing research company. It's nothing to brag about because my job is a joke but it's a foot in the door of a good company. I always wanted to be a investment analyst, instead they have "Industry Analysts" at my company.

>>1708500
I might go into mathematics if that can help my career. Or would engineering be a more safer option?

>>1707977
You definitely know what you're talking about. I archived your advice. What specific resources would you recommend to a college student?

>>1708268
Big company? Operations is a dead end job.

Small company? Go for it. You'lI sit together with the dealmakers. Show that you're good and they will help you make a steady transition into their role.

>>1707745
Not a chance. On JPM's website it literally says 3.2+ from a LEADING university. Unless your going to Berk your state school isnt shit and wont get you into IBD. However if you get top grades and go for your MBA at a top school you can def break in, if you network.

>>1708378
>>1708342

come on man he literally just told you to use linkedin. Its almost a given that bankers will have a Linkedin due to the nature of their role and if you cant figure out how to contact them dont bother trying to go into IBD.

>>1708332
Very rarely will a finance major pull 200k. Senior analysts don't even make that where I work and we are a 1.8B AUM firm. Even new grad analysts at big firms only make 60-80k plus bonus which rarely brings them to 150k tops but 90-110k all in is the normal. At least here in NYC. And 60 hours? Keep dreaming alice.

>>1708085

The 'reflation/Trump' trade as its called on the street has already been playing since the election, alot of people would argue its overplayed if anything.
Youve seen equity sector rotations, 3m LIBOR at 100bps, 10s have sold off deccently.
I think anyone thinking this is behind the curve, whats the next steps ?

>>1708253
>>1708217
>>1708258>>1708292
>>1708486
>>1708406


Sending a couple of apps wont cut it, one year when I was trying to get my foot through the door I cold emailed 150 HFs, got about 10 tractable replies.

I interviewed with most big investment banks multiple times before I even got an internship.

As I've said before, you've got to love the game, following of which.

>>1708186
I personally would never do IBD even if you put a gun to my head. If you truly like finance you have a better chance to make more money for less work on the markets side, IF you're good (which you will become if you truly love it, if you just see finance as 'a job to make alot of money' you will never make it big). Worst case atleast go DCM or something.

>>1708759
If you're making 90-110k at entry level idk where you're working where this doesnt ramp up to over 200k easily after a few years.
Senior analysts in HFs (which is usually the title of anyone other than PM) can pull in multiple millions because theyre the same level as PM but just dont pull the trigger.

>>1708717
>>1708342
I personally have never seen someone from the entry level get an offer anywhere remotely decent via LinkedIn.
If you're senior it helps because head hunters will look for you having a role to fill, in the entry level its best case useful for being able to send a cold LinkedIn message, but at the same time its a given you have to have one.

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>>1707178
>Also everyone whos anyone in IBD jumps over to an HF in a few years
>tfw senior positions at IBDs are going begging because VPs and MDs are inching ever closer to retirement and all the young talent goes there for the CV cred and disappears back through the revolving door

>>1707484
Because I want to fit in.

>>1707484
Because I want to fit in.

>>1708980
All of these opinions aren't facts.

>>1708717
>use linkedin
Except LinkedIn is garbage design and doesn't seem to do anything. "Using" linkedin to me would just be logging on and seeing, nothing. What do people mean when they say, use linkedin? I don't know anyone in industry because I went to a meme, small, stem school with nothing but foreign nationals that all go back to china once they graduate. I don't know how to 'use' linkedin. That's why I'm asking for help.

>>1708980
>I personally have never seen someone from the entry level get an offer anywhere remotely decent via LinkedIn.
>If you're senior it helps because head hunters will look for you having a role to fill, in the entry level its best case useful for being able to send a cold LinkedIn message, but at the same time its a given you have to have one.
So what can I do to get my foot in the door then? Do firms even look at their online applications that I'm submitting or am I wasting my time?

>>1709771
Literally just search Goldman Sachs and it will show people who work there.

>>1708713
IB in my country. Not in America

>all the internship programs are on America!

Only for two bulge bracket banks. I want to go into boutique

>>1707276
lol

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>>1708500
>engineering, mathematics, or computer science. You can go into Finance related career with those major

If you want into finance related job your best bet is to get a finance degree. Degree itself wont teach you a thing, but the hiring is just that way.

The better the school the better for you. If you want to program a software for a bank to use or their clients, then sure, they will look for a highly experienced programmer.

>and you will guaranteed be much more intelligent than any business grad

I can assure an average finance people are much more intelligent than your average engineer. Sure both groups include tards and fine people but if you compare the average class of finance stutends to an engineering class it's like a day and night. The engineer class is like being in kindergarten, just not that brilliant people in general. That's because it's easy to get in engineering schools, there are so much less applications compared to VERY competitive finance with very high application and interest among young people.

Just my experience. Im both.

>>1710475
You majored both in finance and engineering?

>>1707264
Texas A&M is WAY better than Baylor/TT for finance connects...

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>>1710528
Yes I have two degrees from somewhat respectable school. It's not that uncommon here in state sponsored socialist yorop.

In the States whereas everybody pays insanely high tuition fees out of their own pocket I would not even consider it.

>>1708980
i've been considering studying law, specializing in buisiness law and later get a degree in accounting

since you obv know some shit, what are your thoughts?

>>1709517

Which part isint a fact ? Or based on facts ?

>>1709409

Thats true, but if you're good you will still make more money on the buyside currently than you would on the sellside, just fundamentally different business models feeding into your comp.

This will reamin true until IBDs get deregulated again and can pay their people well.

>>1709774
>>1709771

Ofcourse firms look at their online applications, thats all the HR department does (which is who you're going to be dealing with for a grad job, alot of banks the relevant division HR department actually owns you until your grad contract is over, then you're owned by a desk or group)

>>1710404
Boutiques and BBs run internship programmes globally

>>1710475
I agree school plays a huge role, but I disagree that the best way to get a finance job is a finance degree, that may be true when looking at the whole wide industry.

However the top front office jobs have such intense competition for the past 2-3 decades that there is a well ingrained snobbery of hiring the 'hardest' degree holders just so firms feel like they're winning the intellectual arms race.

Wether this is true however is another matter, but I would have the opposite impression of you, I majored in both finance and STEM course and you can teach finance to a monkey, you cannot teach a monkey quantum mechanics or stochastic calculus.

The intellectual cut off for STEM is definitely higher than finance, and idk where you studied where engineering is easy to get into or not sought after.

>>1711024

I think lawyers have a decent skill set in finance, all financial assets are legal contracts at the end of the day, its just bits of paper that literally get brought into existence and have meaning ex nihilo by a bunch of lawyers.

you can either get into finance focused law (e.g derivative law is a big and lucrative field if you like it) or you can actually do finance, its hard to convince finance guys to give you a chance but if you can combine the skills of a lawyer with understanding the finance you can be a formidable financier.

I know distressed debt funds and special situation funds for example (which are great uncorrelated strats that actually produce statistically meaningful alpha) are filled with lawyers that specialise in bankruptcy that look for good deals.

>>1711047
thanks.
my original plan was to get a business degree and do normal careerwork from there, but i realised business degrees are a jack of all trades degree.. and wont make me specialized and desireable to employers.

I'm not too interested in high-end maths and STEM, so i figured law would give opportunities to specialize, and work reasonably close to a business/finance related workplace.

Is there any degree other than STEM and law you would recommend if i want to work with economics/finance?

>>1710035
OK, then what, just email random people? How am I supposed to know who has hiring power?

>>1705409
What do these people do all day anyway?

Surely they can't possible be working all the hours they put face?

>>1707977
And every once in a while I'm reminded of why I come here

Is compliance a field you can have a career in with decent pay? What is the avg salary of a compliance lifer in nyc? 150k?