Minimum wage AZ - 7.05 to 12.00

>>1579274
You are correct anon, keep up the good work.
Read some Sowell, watch some Friedman, learn how to explain well, although, don't be surprised when people still don't understand.

>>1579274
>if we get rid of it, corporations will abuse people and pay them as little as they can

laughed my ass off. ur m8 is blue pill af holmes.

You're wrong.

The negative impact on businesses is negligible. In the end, it's just the bigwigs getting slightly smaller paydays, and it makes a huge difference to poor people.

And if a small business goes bankrupt from spending a $4 more an hour, they weren't going to succeed anyway.

Trickle down economics is an absolute joke, which has been proven wrong, but the opposite (trickle up?) is true. Poor people spend their money, and it will stimulate the economy.

>>1579294
lol and I thought I was done laughing...

>2016
>Believing if minimum wage was $100/hour we'd all be rich

>>1579274
The thing I love about Universal Basic Income is that it can bridge the gaps between people like you and your friend. EG:

"You make some good points my min-wage loving friend, but if we got rid of the minimum wage altogether and taxed corporations more, we could give that money directly to everyone under a certain income. Then it would be even harder to take advantage because firing wouldn't be as effective, and it would become cheaper to hire more people."

Or if you're in an argumentative mood, point out nobody will hire an American citizen once it gets too high, and when he calls you a racist, turn the media buzzwords thing back on him.

>>1579274
if people have more spending money, then businesses will raise prices because the customers have more money to spend, aka inflation.

re: gas prices went down and since everyone had extra money to spend on food, restaurants, fast food places, and markets all raised their prices at a rate of 4% per year on average.

>>1579302
>Taxing the rich more
>Fuck it, I'll take 10 months off and make $100,000 less off my 2 mil, because why work 10 months for nothing, oh, and anyone who wants or needs my services, I guess, sucks to be them, they can take my 30 c tax money.

>>1579313
Said literally no real rich person ever.

>>1579274
>1) A lot of people will get fired because businesses can't afford to keep them on

WRONG

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>>1579600
How so?

>>1579621
It's not supported by any evidence whatsoever.

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>>1579630
Sounds more like common sense than anything else. If a company gives people so much money then it causes inflation. The company doesn't benefit and they have to give people away to prevent bankruptcy.

>>1579274
> I said that companies and workers should decides for themselves what the wage will be and that the market should sort itself out.
The market does what is best for itself. Companies don't care about your well being, and they would pay less if they could. Remmeber, the market doesn't care aout you, each company and individual work for their own self interest

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>>1579600
https://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/mythbuster

"In a letter to President Obama and congressional leaders urging a minimum wage increase, more than 600 economists, including 7 Nobel Prize winners wrote, "In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. "

>>1579635
>The company doesn't benefit
'The company would raise prices... that is literally the meaning of inflation.

Anyway, stop trying to reason it out based on "common sense" and actually look through a shred of evidence.

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>>1579274
A minimum wage increase won't solve anything, but it won't turn things to shit either.

Getting rid of it is literally retarded. History has shown that owners will just try to pay as little as they can get away with.

Free-market capitalism DOESN'T work; that's not to say that capitalism doesn't work, just that having no restrictions is a terrible idea. We already have half of our government at the behest of lobbyists of countries, all FMC does is cut out the middleman.

>>1579299
Who said anything about people being rich? It would just lift a lot of people out of extreme poverty, and not really have an impact anywhere else.

Compare Australia to USA. AU has fair minimum wages, and as a result, the country isn't falling apart and full of stupid uneducated people struggling to get by on minimum wage.

They recently raised the minimum wage in California. When they did the people at my job started to get less hours overall. They hired more people to compensate which made no fucking damn sense. I work at McDonalds.

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A minimum wage increase would work, and would not result in any lost jobs. You have to understand that if a company is paying its company the lowest wage legally allowed, they are very cost conscious and have already maximized efficiency -- cutting jobs and making 1 worker do the job of 2 would be next to impossible.

The immediate result for companies that employ minimum wage workers would be to increase the prices of their products. The next argument against a higher min. wage would be "Well, wouldn't that price increase offset any gains in household income?"

It may. But consider this: minimum wage workers are not frivolous spenders. A majority of products that come from minimum wage production (things like toys, furniture, phones, TVs, etc.) are purchased primarily by the lower-middle class and above (who can weather the increase). So I don't think that argument of price increases offsetting higher income would hold.

And on the topic of inflation: if you think raising the min. wage will cause a spiral of unstoppable inflation, take a financial markets class, please. You have no idea what you're talking about. If anything, it would cause a 1% increase in inflation, which is well within out acceptable bounds (we currently struggle to hit 1% inflation today, with 2% being the Fed's goal).

TL;DR: A Min. Wage increase would be fine -- wannabe conservatives online think they sound smart by saying it would have "repercussions."

>>1580409
human capital is the most expensive bill to pay. Increase it more and you're going to have people ship production over seas where you can pay lower wages. It's not just tax incentives that has hollowed out Americas manufacturing.

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>>1580409
>they are very cost conscious and have already maximized efficiency -- cutting jobs and making 1 worker do the job of 2 would be next to impossible.
This makes sense, but that company could still cut their workers hours to make up for the loss in profits, right? Or they could raise the prices, which you also get into...
>But consider this: minimum wage workers are not frivolous spenders. A majority of products that come from minimum wage production (things like toys, furniture, phones, TVs, etc.) are purchased primarily by the lower-middle class and above (who can weather the increase). So I don't think that argument of price increases offsetting higher income would hold.

According to the BLS gov website,
>Almost two-thirds of workers earning the minimum wage or less in 2014 were employed in service occupations, mostly in food preparation and serving-related jobs.
and
>The industry with the highest percentage of workers earning hourly wages at or below the federal minimum wage was leisure and hospitality(18percent).Over half of all workers paid at or below the federal minimum wage were employed in this industry, the vast majority in restaurants and other food services
So the majority of minimum wage workers aren't even involved in producing those goods you mentioned. They may not be as frivolous with their money, but we're talking about millions of people all of a sudden making 4 or 5 more dollars an hour -- wouldn't businesses across the board be raising their prices for pretty much everything? Things like food, gas, clothes etc etc.

>>1580540

If the jobs haven't left yet, they wouldn't just leave en masse. Again, think about it from the company's perspective: if they could have shipped the jobs overseas to increase margins, they would have by now. It's been smart to do that for the past 50 years.

Now granted, you could have a situation where the min. wage goes up so much it offsets the losses of moving jobs overseas. That's why I personally advocate for small, incremental increases in minimum wage over time. Big changes overnight is never smart, and is usually the scenario people like OP fear.

>>1580560

To your last point: they may try, but the whole point of a competitive market is that when companies try to raise prices, their competitors can (and will) swoop in and undercut them with lower prices. So I don't think that would be an issue.

>>1580561
People look at the long term. It may initially be costly to move jobs over seas over time you will gain that money back. Especially if the Government says it will incrementally increase wages.

I'm not against raising wages for the companies that can afford it. I'm against a blanket law that makes businesses in the red raise rates.
Didn't walmart just close 300 stores to increase wages to $11 because turnover rates where so costly?

>>1580409
>dude why not make the minimum wage $1000 per hour, then everybody will be millionaires and there wont be any poor people!

>>1579294
>In the end, it's just the bigwigs getting slightly smaller paydays
jesus anyone actually believes that is possible in any way?

>>1579274
I don't have a definitive answer but I can give a different perspective. The company I work for operates over 120 fast food franchise restaurants around the US. Obviously we have many employees on minimum wage....

Now I lean more to the liberal side on social issues but I can tell you for sure that an minimum wage increase across the board would have a HUGE impact on our cash flows because I manage them. This would force us to delay or just not even consider doing many projects such as taking over more restaurants, remodels, etc. It does have a direct impact on companies, especially one's that are not that big like ours.

Also we are in a time where restaurants are hurting. You can see articles all the time now about grocery store prices falling while foods costs for restaurants are rising....

There are many retail companies that pay minimum wage but the restaurant industry makes up a HUGE portion of that.

This is a tough one for me. On one hand I work for a company who I know is going to have to completely rethink our strategy for doing business when this happens and on the other hand I understand the importance of paying people a livable wage.

Our problem is that we don't have very high margins... I think minimum wage should go up with inflation but at the same time it';s not like we have much room to raise prices along with that. We can't start making our 99 cent cheeseburger $2.

>>1579294
You obviously know nothing about running a business nor have you ever managed the cash for a company. I agree that public companies like Walmart wouldn't have an issue raising the wage and paying their executives a smaller bonus but the majority of small and medium size private companies do not have this luxury.

>>1580723
This being said, my final point is that a $4 minimum wage increase would not make us close our doors and shut down shop. We would have to make it work just like anyone else in business.... But do i think that it will have a large impact? Of course....

>>1580733

It's a trade-off between increasing the standard of living of those currently employed versus employing more people? From a supply and demand perspective of labor, it sounds so simple.

I can't imagine a business that isn't already complete shit getting fucked over by a $4 increase in wages.

>>1579274
the minimum wage is there because the bottom class is really bad at negotiating.

if we dont protect the bottom class then it just turns into a game of who can abuse it more rather than who can innovate more through technology.

we should definitely increase it to 15 as it hasnt raised with inflation.

we should definitely stop this free trade bullshit thats just an excuse to pay workers 2 dollars a day to make cheap faggot shit.

>>1580375
the principle of what you said is the same principle as believing if minimum wage was high enough we'd all be rich.

how hard is it to fucking understand
>company now has to pay x more in wages
>company either charges x more for goods or services
>or fires employess to make up x in wages

lol
>Australia is doing better than USA
>It's because of minimum wage not any of the other 1,000,000,000 variables.

they probably have a logical fallacy dealing with what you just did there.

>>1580801
>company charges x more for goods or services

You act like everyone will go broke now that a Big Mac costs $5.10 rather than $5.

The price that goods would increase by is minuscule to those in the lower-middle class and up. It does not take a minimum wage worker more than 1 hour to make anything. It doesn't even take 5 minimum wage workers 1 hour to make anything. The amount that the price of goods would increase by would be less than $0.10 for every $1 increase in minimum wage.

Minimum wage should increase. By how much? I am not sure. But what the government really needs to give the people are necessities.

College should be free (but colleges should be made harder to compensate)

Health Care should be free

Social Security should remain as it gives people a safety net during their life so they don't HAVE to save for retirement. When people save for retirement, it siphons money that could be put into the economy.

>>1580822
>I make $5 more per hour
>big mac costs $.10 more
groceries cost $.10 more
everything you buy costs $.10 more

actually think of the number of individual goods you buy every month. consider that on average there are 300,000 individual items in the american home. all of those cost $.10+ more now nationwide. meaning every house would have to pay $30,000 more than current value to rebuy everything in their house.

and no nobody's going to suddenly go broke. the point is it will make no difference. people make $500 more per month and they'll end up spending ~$480-520 more per month. so have at it. I truly hope they make minimum wage = $150,000 per year so you all will see how wrong you've been this whole time.

>>1580878
Pretty much this. Also everyone who earns just above minimum wage will want a raise too since their job is harder/more in demand than minimum wage jobs, and the people who earn just above those guys will want a raise in kind and so on. Basically the price of everything will just go up. See: countries with a higher minimum wage.

All of the arguments against minimum wage take as an axiom that the owner/management deserves a thousand times more money per hour than the people actually doing the work that earns that money. It is unquestionable because you are, or desire to be, in that position so it turns into a question of _your_ value. Small wonder then that you have nowhere to go but "shit will cost more if workers are paid more."

>live in Midwest, federal min wage
>worked 40-50 hours a week, lived in ghetto, ate beans and rice
>could barely stay afloat, let alone save anything

>move to Seattle, min wage 13/hour
>work 40 hours a week, live in nice neighborhood, eat out once in a while
>still able to save almost 1k a month

>>1579274
>Be small business owner.
>Be backbown of american middle class.
>must pay 2000 to 5000 month in parking lot rent
>must pay 1000 to 2000 month in business loan
>must pay 1920 month per minimum wage employee
>assuming I have only one employee
>month prophet = month revenue - 6820
>make 15% over head on average
>so far so good. Slow and steady till burger empire is built.
>communist is elected
>minimum wage increases from 8 to 13 dollars
>now must pay 3120 a month per enployee
>blame niggers

>>1581097
>decide will take niet mire shit
>did not come here from societ of socialist union so i can not be rich
>hire illegal immigrants and underaged children
>pay then 2 per hour
>can get 5 times work for same price
>communist mayor blames niggers

>>1581100
>union of small local business have talks with communists
>communists have talk with small business
>compromise is concluded
>minimum wage goes back down
>small business must hire niggers

>>1581104
>God bless America

>>1579274
a minimum wage is fine as long as its not so high that businesses cannot afford to issue it. Technically that makes it a very high celing however it also should not be so high that businesses will push to replace the workers with computers.

Raising it a little is fine, $15 is retarded, abolishing it is more retarded

>>1579274
>pure capitalism doesnt work

i see an assertion with no evidence to back it up

you cant just assert something without explaining why you have that opinion

increasing the minimum wage results in increased unemployment

this is econ 101

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Fuck you self entitled $15 minimum wagers.

I hope 'merican restaurants all go with payment machines and runners like the efficient japs.

Way to speed up your own unemployment, fucking losers.

>>1581131

Labor Unions
> Pay us our artificially high wages, our unsustainable pensions, and our ridiculous benefits and health packages or else WE WILL STRIKE!!!

Based Jeff Bezos
> lololololololololololololololololoolloolloololololol

:middlefinger:

>>1581131
payment machines are coming regardless of wage

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>>1579274
this is /biz/ not /pol/. who fucking cares these political issues.

we here talk investing strategies and stocks.

>>1579274
Why do people discuss wage increases as if wages are going to shoot up to 15 dollars an hour over the course of a single day. It would be a gradual increase so people aren't going to be laid off in droves genius.

>>1581135
Where? i've been on here a few times and all this board seems good for is shit posting. A successful investor trusts his gut.

>>1579274
I'm from Arizona and I'm voting no on this. I actually thought deeply about it. I think it should be raised very slightly to compensate for SOME modern prices (only some things have increased in priced while many things have dropped), but not nearly that much. Also it's $8.05, not 7.05

Sadly it's going to pass, just like legal weed is going to pass

Also, poor fucks who spend needlessly are going to continue to spend needlessly whether they have $1 more or not. Those retards complaining on TV, and those retarded $15 Mcdonald fucks, how many cell phones TVs computers and xboxes do they have in their houses?

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>>1581133

pic very related

>>1581144
Do you get 15$ an hrs at a fast food joint?

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>>1581150
Funny, i used to work at carl's jr here in California, you do realize that this state is already on the path for a 15/dollar an hour wage by the year 2021. Stop arguing like idiots, wage increases are necessary to keep up with inflation. The increase in wages will be so gradual that by the year 2021 you guys are going to be arguing about a 20 dollar an hour wage.

Here is what i imagine the average /biz/ poster to be

>>1581154
>you do realize that this state is already on the path for a 15/dollar an hour wage by the year 2021

And we are on the path to introducing more automation and self service than any state.

Do you ignorant faggots really think you can "make a living" as an unskilled cashier monkey?

Fucking low expectations having losers.

>>1581159
Hahahaha i'm a day trader genius, do you think i care if the burger flippers get a 15/dollar an hour wage? I make plenty of money; let them do their thing.

"How the $15 wage is already killing Seattle jobs"

the early impact is harsh.

The AEI study, worked up from Bureau of Labor Statistics’ monthly surveys, shows that, between April and December last year, Seattle saw the biggest employment drop in any nine-month period since 2009 — a full year into the Great Recession.

The city unemployment rate rose a full percentage point.

Before the minimum-wage hikes begin, Seattle employment tracked the rest of the nation — slowly rising from the 2008-09 bottom. But it started to plunge last spring, as the new law began to kick in.

Furthermore, Seattle’s loss of 10,000 jobs in just the three months of September, October and November was a record for any three-month period dating back to 1990.

Meanwhile, employment outside the city limits — which had long tracked the rate in Seattle proper — was soaring by 57,000 and set a new record high that November."

>>1581144
Because they're stupid or scare mongering at the stupid.

>>1581159
>he thinks he can run a large retail operation without help
>but is desperately afraid of what happens when he can't hold hunger or homelessness over the head of that help

>>1581159
Also if you're really think that you cant make a living as an unskilled cashier monkey i have a simple solution for you. Don't become one. Simple as that; just go get your degree and study for a good profession and you wont have to concern yourself about low skilled jobs.

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ITT: A bunch of fucking idiots

You retards know that the two cities that changed their minimum wage to $15/hour, San Francisco and Seattle (if I remember right) had the fastest growing economies of any city in the entire country, right?

>businesses will fire people
No they fucking won't, because they're already running on the bare minimum number of people necessary to, you know, run.

>inflation will occur
Uh, no? Do you have any proof of this at all?

I swear to god biz is filled with a bunch of republican idiots, you sound like my parents. And no you dumb cunts, democrats are even worse.

It makes me sad that a bunch of illiterates are allowed to vote on the same measures as me.

>>1579274
>and the market should sort itself out

What about the period before it "sorts itself out"? What about all the people who would be badly affected by this? What about the lives this will ruin while the country gets used to this new method? Did you consider this and if so, how long do you think it will take to sort itself out and normalize in such a way that people stop getting fucked over?

-

Desperate people without families to feed will drive the average wage of unskilled work down in order to get/keep jobs, making it impossible for people with debt/families/etc to compete and acquire/keep their jobs.

Why would you pay some people more for the same work just because they 'need' more?

If unskilled work that earns minimum wage now goes DOWN, then higher hourly rates of pay will also go down on average.

If you are paying someone $1 for example more because of the position they are in, or 2/3 dollars more because the work is skilled or semi-skilled... then why on earth would you continue paying them this amount more than the OLD MINIMUM WAGE THAT DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE? You would pay them (roughly) the same amount more than what you pay your unskilled workers. The workers on the bottom end. You would pay them x amount more than what the minimum you pay workers is.

Where will the saved money go from paying the majority of employees less? Well, there will be more profit. And this profit will be used to pay higher earners in the company.. Which is a quick way to increasing the wealth gap between rich and poor.


>open up more job possibilities at the lower end

Do you even know what you mean by this? In what way would this create more jobs lmao.

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>>1581256
>You retards know that the two cities that changed their minimum wage to $15/hour, San Francisco and Seattle (if I remember right) had the fastest growing economies of any city in the entire country, right?
That has nothing to do with their minimum wage increase, though. Seattle has been booming because of their tech sector and a growing construction industry --their overall economy is growing, but people are suffering layoffs and reduced hours at the bottom end. See >>1581164

>>businesses will fire people
>No they fucking won't, because they're already running on the bare minimum number of people necessary to, you know, run.
Then those businesses will fail for failure to compensate for the wage increase, and ALL of those people will be out of jobs. Either that, or they will jack up their prices, which offsets the wage increase, or cut their hours.

>>inflation will occur
>Uh, no? Do you have any proof of this at all?
Uh, common sense? Basic economics? What do you you think is going to happen when people all of a sudden have an extra $300 a week to spend, for no other reason than some arbitrary law that mandates it?

>>1581275
>Do you even know what you mean by this? In what way would this create more jobs lmao.
Cities that have higher minimum wages proportionally have higher unemployment rates among low-skilled workers and teenagers. Jobs have disappeared because it is ILLEGAL to hire someone to do a simple job for $4 an hour, even if that person WANTS that job and is willing to work for that wage. Imagine all of the little nook and cranny jobs that would open up all over the place, because now businesses are actually allowed to pay people what they're worth, and not what some tyrannical government forces them to pay.

You would never force a worker to work for a particular wage against their will. So by the same token, why would you force a business to pay an employee a wage that doesn't make sense for the job?

>>1579310
Isn't all money viewed as spending money to businesses?

They raise prices weather we have money or not and if you can't keep up, its your fault.

>>1581178

what a dumbass suggestion

so loading people up with debt that have no buissiness being in college is a good thing? some people are only capable of so much and I would rather they work for their money then be a stay at home Obamanoid waiting for free cash because we currently live in a world where being a stay at home nigger earns you more money then working 50 hours a week no benefits min wage

>>1579274
>He says that if we get rid of it, corporations will abuse people and pay them as little as they can...

I love how people seem to think that corporations have some sort of obligation to care for or support the public. Where did this trash mentality come from? They look at some corporation like its some government entity.

>>1581457
Oh look, another person that hasn't read the charter governing the legal fiction of corporations.

ITT:
>people will ship diners and restaurants to china to reduce cost

baka

>>1579274
> Getting rid of it won't work because unions will form and unions traditionally have sort of fucked things up in America
Getting rid of it would be hard since most people are blue pilled about economics but most people won't do much to stop it except for leftist protestors.
> Pure capitalism doesn't work and there should be a minimum wage in place to protect people
Has he ever lived in a society with "pure capitalism"? Ask him what "pure capitalism" is. If it's what we have right now then he's wrong since we social security, medicare, medicaid and other entitlement programs.
> A wage increase will give people more spending money and that will go into the economy and more money will go into taxes for roads and shit
That would mean an increase in sales tax which would make products more expensive hurting the working class even more.

>Also
Mention how raising the minimum wage in Greece devastated their economy
http://www.forbes.com/sites/panosmourdoukoutas/2016/03/28/what-will-a-15-minimum-wage-do-to-california-take-a-look-at-greece/#872ba3136994

>>1579274
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TGkfjaxFWs
Thomas Sowell - Minimum Wage

All minimum wage does is force people whose work isn't worth a certain amount to be unemployed.