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AMA

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I interviewed (assessment centre) for a trading position for Morgan Stanley in Canary Wharf, London.

I didn't get the role, but I figured I could provide some insights.

Ask me anything.
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>>1188879
Did they check some background of your previous employment from your CV?
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>>1188879
why didnt you get entry?

do you need to be jewish to pass the requirements?
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>>1188892
They didn't. I had only one previous employer, and that company is owned by my father. All the rest of my CV was entrepreneurial stuff.
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>>1188879
One more question, do you actually have at least retail trading experience with options/futures hedging/stocks/HFT/market making/statistical arbitrage/etc. or are you just out of college without any experience?
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>>1188897
Thanks for reply, good to know that, because I am in almost same position as you are, not that I am considering working in the City, I would much rather get the same job with less stress somewhere cheap (e.g. Wales), making less money, having less career options and saving more money. I don't need to work more than ten years as I already have net worth and income stream that allows me not to work at all.
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What made you decide to apply?
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>>1188897
There were 7 white and 1 black person at the assessment centre. 4 of white people were French, from universities in Paris. The rest were from Oxbridge, Durham, Warwick, Bristol & Exeter (me).

The day consisted of 3 interviews, a technical presentation, a group presentation and a numerical test.

The official feedback they gave me was that I didn't speak enough during the group exercise, though I believe that was just a polite reason as I was the main speaker when presenting the group results. They also said my numerical test results were fairly poor (I was frazzled, couldn't sleep the night before).

I have a trading (taking actual positions, like a hedge fund) background, whereas the banks only do "trading" as market makers. I have a good profitable record and I thought that the banks would snap up someone like me. During the interviews though, I kind of got the hint that I wasn't going to get the role. Two out of the three interviewers asked "Why not hedge funds?" "You seem to be passionate about taking a position" "You seem to be better suited to hedge funds".

I was disappointed because I am struggling to get credibility in the financial arena, and the Morgan Stanley role would have been the first step in getting that credibility - so I viewed it as a stepping stone.

I am an athiest, but I always choose not to disclose on the forms.
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>>1188903
I have a consistent profitable record in discretionary small-cap equities and a systematic futures trading style. Though I believe this somehow worked against me during the interviews - I am too passionate about what I do and much of the interviews were spent discussing my own trading. Since the banks have been forced to cut the prop trading due to the volker rule, people like me are out of luck.

My university grades were below average. I also have a few good entrepreneurial ventures on my CV - and the banks are always trying to enhance their "entrepreneurial culture" rep.
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>>1188916
I had been an educational failure throughout most of my life. Right before I decided to get into university, I visited London and walked through Canary Wharf. I was just blown away by the whole aesthetic and lifestyle that goes with it. I remember I walked into the Citi building in my hoodie, and was immediately escorted out by security.

So it was a pleasure just to be let through the doors when I interviewed with MS, at some point during the day I was sitting in a boardroom similar to pic related, and I was on a higher floor and I looked out across canary wharf out the window - it felt great just to be there.

It was also nice just to do the morning commute through London (I stayed in a hotel the night before). I took the tube train from my hotel to canary wharf at 7:30 am. I have lived in Exeter for all of my life, so the whole experience was just a world apart from what I am used to.

The wage going in to a full time entry level trader role is £70k, so that was appealing too.
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>>1188924
Thanks for a nice resume. I personally don't think atheism has anything to do with not getting the job. I believe that in this case, they really seek a person that has more natural conservative approach they can operate with, they need a fresh piece of meat they can shape up into the way that suits them, whereas you seem to be fit for riskier business.

>>1188933
You have just summed up what I think. Given what you say, I agree with you apart from below average grades being a big deal.
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>>1188933
so you're more of a speculator than a driven entrepreneur in their eyes

fair enough.. tough crowd
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>>1188955
Yeah. The people in the banks say things like "Why not apply to hedge funds?", but they don't realise that I literally have no credibility at all with funds. I have talked with a few have them, and nobody wants to know. My track record is as good as can be too, consistent & profitable.

It is a tough crowd, I remember being told by another candidate at the assessment centre that we had be out 1500+ people to get a space on that assessment centre. I got to talk to quite a few of the other candidates, and didn't feel like any of them were super-elite. They definitely had a more "sales" type personalities than me though.
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>>1188952
So it is a long term dream, I understand as I had something like this as well in the past. If it is not about career and more about money and the long term lifestyle, make yourself an analysis evaluating return on investment while working in Exeter for less money, paying small to no rent, saving up on social life, food, transportation, services, being able to invest more money on the side, being able to retire quickly, having less stressful life compared with working in London for 70k, maybe you won't pursue the dream after all.
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>>1188954
>they really seek a person that has more natural conservative approach they can operate with, they need a fresh piece of meat they can shape up into the way that suits them

This has pretty much been the bane of my experiences so far. When talking to boutique funds I probably wasn't humble and "I have a lot to learn" enough. UBS asset management, BlackRock and M&G I interviewed for too. None of them wanted to know - at my university I struggle to find anyone else that trades, and the ones that do trade do so on a very naive level. So I can only assume that these places are hiring fresh, malleable and bright kids - or some masterwizards from oxbridge.

I think that the same reasons that are holding me back now are the reasons that are going to eventually make me successful.
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>>1188976
maybe they just want driven "salemen" types.. easier to mould them into their desired employee.

you were probably too overqualified as a speculator, and under qualified as a sales representative
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>>1188924
>letting them know your power level

See thats where you fucked up. They don't care if you're a profitable trader, went to the moon or cofounded google. They're looking for text book smart, obedient and naive plebs who'll simply sit down, shut up and do what they are told to pay for Mr Shekelberg's monthly private jet costs.
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>Only one previous employment reference, your father's business
>Rest of CV is entrepreneurial stuff
>Academic failure

Holy shit, you sound a lot like me. I live in London as well, I love being in the square mile and shit, I live in central so getting around isn't hard. How old are you?
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>>1188978
I think I just wanted to know I could be one of these young canary wharf guys if I wanted to. At least I now know I wasn't far off.

I know it wasn't right for me, though. My passion is in actual prop trading - and everything at the moment is just about the fight for credibility. Having MS on your CV and making the contacts that you do there would have been a big step in getting that credibility.

I am undercapitalised at the moment, and no one would invest in me because a lack of credibility. So it comes down to, at this stage, I either eventually get a job at an asset manager and start proving what I can do and gaining a reputation - or I continue to struggle to do this on my own, and inch by inch work my way up in capital until I can support myself through a privately capitalised fund, and gain credibility that way.
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>>1188997
The same things that hold me back will be the same things that make me successful.

I'll be myself in the interviews and I will either find where I fit, or die trying to make it on my own.
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>>1188993
>So I can only assume that these places are hiring fresh, malleable and bright kids - or some masterwizards from oxbridge.
Good thinking, I wouldn't expect anything else from such crowd. You're fit for private equity, or indeed a hedge fund, if there was not that stupid SEC rule, under which you need to have at least $10 mil (correct me if wrong, it has been a time since I checked it) to be able to present yourself publicly as a hedge fund.

>>1188996
Exactly

>>1188997
Also this

>>1189000
From what you wrote, If I were in your shoes, I would do the same, your conclusions seem absolutely logical to me.
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>>1188999
21 now, about to turn 22. My GCSE results range from F - C with a few D's in between.

And I swear this is true - on the "GCSE" part of the application form - I left it blank.

I didn't do A levels either - I am extremely grateful to be at the university.
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>>1188996
speculation is not valued at all right now. We are in a bear market; risk management is much more important.

When there's a bull market again, people like OP will have an opportunity to build up their CVs.

Hedge funds are cutting costs right now, so hiring new traders is not a priority. Too many hedge funds not enough capitulations.

The question "why not hedge funds" today either represents sarcasm or ignorance of market's state; knowing bank culture probably the latter.

Again, OP dont waste your time building a reputation when there's a bear market. Too much risk for your credibility, if trading is your dream wait it out till firms really start hiring again.

The only reason you should want to be a trader is the money, not job safety. Right now there is no money, and traders are the first to be scapegoated.
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>>1189026
good points.. bear markets are also good for speculating tho.. Bear is the time to buy
>>
I should probably add though, the 3 guys who interviewed me were all extremely nice guys.

I have read on other forums that they can be rude to you or try to put you in strange situations to see how you will react, it wasn't like that in my experience at all.
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>>1189017

I'm 23, my GCSEs are all between Cs with one B. I don't have A-Levels either. I wouldn't call myself a trader really, I've just had some long positions in stocks that I had faith in and dicked around with shitcoins.

I never went to university. I realized I don't really want a financial job, I just want to work my way towards a cushy passive income so I can do what I want.
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>>1189017

Wait, how the fuck did you get into uni?
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>>1189026
>The question "why not hedge funds" today either represents sarcasm or ignorance of market's state

I think they just don't realise how hard it is these days. The job market is different from when these guys were employed - I have heard the stories of how some of the bankers I have spoke to (who are now in their 40s) got their jobs - they are literally humorous stories of how it just fell on their lap.
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>>1189037
And not to mention, the guys on the trading floors are dealing with 10s of hedge funds each. They are speaking to them all day long, they are in their own world where hedge funds are omnipresent.
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>>1189011
Then you are a fool because no one is going to hire someone that is better than them and talks back to authority as he pleases.

Your personality is better suited for starting a business anyway. So I don't know why you want to be a wageslave so bad if you claim to be "profitable" in trading.
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>>1189036
I did some 1 year access course at a college local to the university. It was a joke to be honest - 100% coursework - and for part of my grade I did a good research paper on cryptocurrencies and an analysis of their future - I think the university might have seen that paper through the college.

The downside to this was, my first year at university I was left in the dust by the A level kids. I had a grade C GCSE in math that I had completed 4 years prior - and here I was on a mathematical university course and everything looked like rocket science. I literally think I damaged my health in that first year struggling to catch up, I was ill almost every week.
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>>1189045
I'm undercapitalised - I don't come from a rich family and I don't particularly want to be under pressure from bills and have to trade to pay them bills - that's when I would stop being profitable. A lot of the smaller funds have a certain "culture" - basically a set of investment beliefs and rules.

I wouldn't say I talk back to authority as I please - I am not going to pretend to be someone else to get a job, though. If I have to do that, I don't fit there.
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>>1189033
Trading with sub £100k is a suckers game, it starts to get comfortable at £1million capital. We weren't born rich and the only way we are going to get anywhere is with OPM.

That is basically the reality. I know there will be people in here saying that if you are good enough you can snowball. But the reality is you either load up on risk for the first few years and get lucky and out of the poverty - or you get credibility for OPM and trade for the long term with some real money.
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>>1189011
>>1189045
>Your personality is better suited for starting a business anyway. So I don't know why you want to be a wageslave so bad if you claim to be "profitable" in trading.

I believe that the personality and nature of every human with private investment experience, no matter how big or small, is disrespect and questioning of authorities, which its the first step and sign how to become successfully independent in the long term. So this is the biggest flaw and disjunction with bank culture for >>1188879 (and for myself and perhaps all of the posters in this topic). You're either leader or slave by nature.
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>>1189030
please realise that a good trader will never be a good investor.
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>>1189119
I don't agree with that. Why can't a profitable trader do a real estate business with average results on the side for example, If the only difference is the consideration of different time window and both his trading and his RE investments are profitable long term?
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>>1189132
it just shows that you dont understand trading at all.

Sure the same person can be a good trader and a good inverstor, but not at the same time.

i'm tired so i ignored all that jargon in your post
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>>1189139
>it just shows that you dont understand trading at all.
Perhaps I don't, yet I still seem not to have losing year after five years of trading futures and options and still get quite a lot for an exchange of not knowing trading as you say.

>>1189139
>Sure the same person can be a good trader and a good inverstor, but not at the same time.
Why not? Consider me, having a long term investment position (in years) in several stocks, ETFs, bonds, real estate, while at the same time switching short term trading positions in the futures and options four times a month and still realizing profit in every single one of these instruments.

>>1189139
>i'm tired so i ignored all that jargon in your post
So am I, but be privileged to enlighten me.
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>>1189119
Bullshit, a lot of the multi-strat funds operate in both arenas under the same manager.
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>>1189139
That's like saying
> a good car driver cant be a good horse rider at the same time

Are you a fucking idiot?
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>>1188933
any advice on developing a futures system? How do you DD? Are you mostly a technical trader, or do you do fundamentals? Both? Book recommendations?

just graduated with a finance degree, non-target school in the US. 2.5 GPA because I just can't deal with class structure- that said I don't have any trouble learning stuff on my own.
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>>1189350
I have had a long and capricious obsession with gold futures in particular. I originally started with support and resistance on an intra-day level. I blew a few £k doing this before I moved to looking at directions over the days and weeks, reconciling them with macro events, non-farm payrolls especially. I have a mind that is always searching for a way to create an edge, and after searching to establish an edge in macro through several ways, it was clear that the informational disadvantages made it extremely hard, and it wasn't systematic enough to be comfortable.

It was around the time I finished with macro that I really started getting market psychology with equities, establishing market species, their views/character/psychology and trying to look for systematic bias. I did it with equities (I believe), but I found futures to be much harder, they are essentially as perfect and efficient as markets get. I eventually settled on an idea that took into account the way species were reacting to a certain event, and I tried out that strategy for a time. Long story short, my perceived systematic bias was incorrect, but the converse was true - so I managed to find what I believe to be a bias, but the bias was the opposite of my initial intuition.

A lot of my thinking is similar to the adaptive market hypothesis - and of course you never know whether you have a true bias, and you never know whether that bias will last. All you can do is find something that makes intuitive sense, is backed up by the data, and seems to have a +EV in practice.

Cliffs:

So my current thinking is:
- Look for systematic bias
- Criteria for a bias: must be backed up by the data, must make intuitive sense
- Bias may apply to one or more markets
- The future of managed futures is in algorithmic trading, learn to program for the purpose of analysing time series data
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>>1188879
Did they ask you anything about the economic contraction we're in/entering?
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>>1189350
And I have read lots and lots of books but none of them are really worth mentioning IMO.
I truly believe that the people who really innovate in markets are the people who have a true obsession to the point that they spend days, weeks & months in front of the charts searching for ideas - to the point that their thinking is removed from anyone else's - or as far removed from the mainstream as you can get.

It is clear that computer driven analysis and trading is where the real power is.
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>>1189416
They asked about several macro events. I felt like all my answers to the macro questions weren't sufficient. I basically showed that I had some understanding of the situations - but when I was asked to give an opinion on the future - I always gave the same answer:

"I don't know. But I know that the market is expecting <this> so I would look for risk/opportunity in the opposite direction."

A lot of my answers were pretty abrupt - "How do you feel about doing a repetitive task?" - "Fine" - "Elaborate.." - "If you look at my trading, studying etc. etc."
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>>1189416
And I also had an individual "technical presentation" where you have to present 3 macroeconomic ideas. I was given a sheet with some macro figures and analysis on it and given 15 mins to plan. I didn't read the sheet because I had ideas of my own already.

I presented:
- Implications of AI
- A number of knock-on markets effects due to self-driving cars.
- I regurgitated a little bit about the oil market that I had heard from a senior trader earlier in the day.
>>
Hi, I work in financial services in Canary Wharf.

It's a great place to live and work during the week. It feels soulless at weekends though. A couple of years ago some guy jumped off the JPM building and went splat on top of the glass-roofed restaurant next door. So it's not a perfect life for everyone.

From what I hear about trading, it's basically all sales these days. It's moving away from prop trading and research to selling to funds etc. Mostly driven by FCA regulation on commission, conflicts of interest etc. So they will be looking for outgoing sales guys, not successful technical traders.

You were impressive enough to get through to the assessment stage, so keep applying elsewhere and ask JPM for extra feedback on areas you can improve on.

Hedge funds, as you've learned, is a closed trade. You need contacts, a track record or a PhD from Oxford to get a foot in the door.

As you're still young, I would recommend setting your sights slightly lower and getting an entry level role in a smaller company, maybe outside London to start, maybe in a back office, customer service or sales role. That would give you experience and transferable skills that allow you to climb up the ladder to where you really want to be.

I'm here for 30 mins if you have any questions (keeping anon obv)
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>>1189474
What particular role/company do you work for?

I have flickered on and off with the idea of an audit role - thinking it might give me some nice insights with my small-cap equities trading. My fear is getting marginalised into being an accountant and not being able to break into buy-side from there.

(strange question) Do you find canary wharf has a particular smell of a specific perfume? There is a smell of a perfume that comes back to me every so often that reminds me of canary wharf and the people at MS. It smells like success and I want to find out what it is (not a generic perfume smell, something specific)
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>>1189474

Yesm could you give some tips for people in my situation? I'm currently a first year Computer Science and Math student at Coventry and I need some tips on getting an internship at a smaller firm/boutique bank.

I have a first-class degree and no previous work experience. I have volunteered for Amnesty International for a week. I'm also a member of the school Investment society.

Also, could you give me any introductory books that would help me as I dont have a finance/economics/accounting background.

Thank you
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>>1189494
I can't say, more on the compliance/regulatory side of things.

Audit would need accounting qualifications or experience. And is incredibly dull.

I would advise you to round out your CV, get some more experience working as an employee in a team and developing your soft skills. That will help you break in to a trading role in a firm.

Otherwise, it sounds like you already have the skills and motivation to start your own business. If you can consistently make money then you don't need to work for anybody. Use the skills you already have and invest in yourself. Start small and build up, reinvest profit.

I'm not sure about the perfume scent, it's probably a psychological thing. I knew from the first time I visited canary wharf that I wanted to work here. If you want it, you will get here too. For most people it takes a few years to build up the skills and experience you need.

Know what you want. Find out what you need to get there. Work out a plan. Never give up and you will succeed.
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>>1188879
Did they clear up the explosion at Torchwood? Are you still getting all that unusual stuff from the rift?
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>>1189411
>I have had a long and capricious obsession with gold futures in particular. I originally started with support and resistance on an intra-day level.

Absolutely plebeian.

>>1189433
>I truly believe that the people who really innovate in markets are the people who have a true obsession to the point that they spend days, weeks & months in front of the charts searching for ideas - to the point that their thinking is removed from anyone else's - or as far removed from the mainstream as you can get.

Yep. You're not going to find serious alpha from anything that's mainstream.

>>1189466
I presented:
- Implications of AI
- A number of knock-on markets effects due to self-driving cars.
- I regurgitated a little bit about the oil market that I had heard from a senior trader earlier in the day.

Ignore industries that are saturated with old institutional thinking like oil. Oil is going to zero in 12 years from renewables.

"Implications of AI" sounds so vague that you don't really have any clue what you're talking about. You're right that it's going to be extremely important, but I think most of the growth is yet to come. Figure out how Google is trying to monetize AI to give you inspiration.

You don't sound especially technical and it's probably worth it for you to fix that because the vast majority of long term growth will come from IT-based developments.

Check out Ethereum.
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>>1189515
I would learn as much as you can about how the world of finance works, especially markets. You are on track to becoming a quant (research the role) if you continue to PhD level.

One area I would recommend to students is getting some work experience while you study. Even part-time in Tesco's, you gain a lot of transferable skills that help you later in life and demonstrate you are employable.

Many students finish uni and they have a degree, but not much else to go on the CV. Get work experience, get involved in projects with the investment society, do more volunteering, start a micro-business, get practical skills outside academia.

It's difficult to think about your future when you're young. But think about what you want to be doing in 5 years. Then invest your time wisely during the next 5 years so you have the skills, experience, qualifications to get whatever it is that you want. Prepare for success.

In 5 years, how will you sell yourself and beat 100s of competitors? Start investing time and effort in yourself and your future.

As for the books, DYOR. Everything is out there on the internet. Get out of the habit of being spoon-fed and find the answers yourself.

I have to go now, good luck anons.
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>>1189559
>Absolutely plebeian.

I don't start good at anything, I just try to improve fast.

>>1189559
>You don't sound especially technical and it's probably worth it for you to fix that because the vast majority of long term growth will come from IT-based developments.

I had a big long spiel for each topic, the technical presentation was 50 mins long and I went deep into the subject, don't you worry yourself. I also got through 2 phone interviews talking about a couple of these topics so I know my stuff was kosher.
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>>1189561

If you ever see this thread again, where do you think the future hedgefund managers are going to come from? I know they come from generally varied backgrounds, but an awful lot are ex-talented-broker-analysts or span out of banks prop desks - and now both of these areas are dead.
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>>1189433
Thanks bud
>>
OP, do you seriously think that they cared about the content of your answers (or your investing style) or do you think that they were just engaging in a box ticking exercise? It seems like you think the first but I think it was the latter.

Do you think every other candidate had trading on their CV? Most likely they were treasurer of the lacrosse club or whatever

When they asked why not hedge funds of course they knew that hedge funds barely recruit out of undergrad etc. They just wanted you to BS on the spot.

I think you underestimate how much of a box ticking exercise these things are. I've been to assessment centres where they send people home halfway through, probably due to performance in a group exercise (everyone is capable of doing the numerical tests). Nobody has any clue how they passed or failed the group exercise. I have no idea how to tell as well. It's like your assessor just has to think your behaviour qualifies certain boxes to be ticked
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>>1190861
OP here.

I do think it was largely a box ticking exercise. The interviewers had a sheet and they advised me at the start to give as many examples as possible to each question. First question: "How do you feel about doing repetitive work?" .. "Fine..". By the second interview I had warmed up to giving answers plentiful in examples - and when they gave the feedback they said that the third interview was the strongest, with the second not far behind. I could tell that the third guy liked me, though, so that made it easier.

So I think that people who had these interview skills that put the ticks in the boxes were the people that got the jobs.

I asked a few of the other candidates whether any of them trade, they didn't. They were all part of the lacrosse/investment society president/private school mix it seemed. I was definitely the only person there with a D in GCSE English.

I am pretty much outside of the mix at university too. I joined the investment society, turned up twice, realised that they were all jokers and never went back.
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>>1190861
And I have been thinking that I can't ever work at one of these big firms. I just don't seem to fit the mould at all.

I am hoping to find a small boutique where I will get an interview and they will think.. alright this kids got something in him, let's give him a chance.
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>>1188879
The frustration and the subject in this video is partly related to your situation. It might cheer you up (or the opposite).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHhZH99IIxk

Conclusion I've taken here : some traders even sign a song about how the authorities fuck up with their potential and even write a book about that experience to find their niche (certainly the case of Sykes), so this is a general phenomena in the world of finance and should be treated that way. So stay on the course.
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>>1191135
Saying that you're fine with doing repetitive work probably doomed you.
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>>1188879
Friendo, I'm a first year doing a double bachelors of computer engineering and business.
What things should I improve upon over my 5 and a half years of university?
I have work experience lined up over mid year break in financial services.
>>
>>1191715
I mean, to get in to trading.
>>
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>>1189515

Absolutely essential book to start:

Modern investment theory by Haugen. Listen to me, don't read a book before you read that one. Then the next book you will read is options futures and other derivatives by hull. Here's a pic of my original 1st edition modern investment theory stacked on top of my 4th edition modern investment theory
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>>1191386
Haha, I hate those "teach you to trade" cacks.

I went to a seminar by the english version of Tim, Darren Winters as a joke. Pretty much parred him in front of all his would-be customers, then he turned off his mic and spoke to me 1v1 so no one else would hear me refuting his bullshit answers.
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>>1191667
Their job as market makers is inherently repetitive. They never leave the trading floor.
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>>1191781
Yeah bro that looks really modern
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>>1191719
"Trading" as a market maker in an IB, or real prop trading?

If the former, target university, fit the mould. Then do what I did and have some decently impressive entrepreneurial stuff to set you apart.

If the latter, push more towards the computer science aspect of your degree. Focus especially on big data, any statistical and data analysis elements. When you know how to analyse the time series data - then you are really equipped to make something happen.

I have said multiple times in this thread - so you know I believe it - the future of trading will be ruled by the computers, and already is I suppose. Though the macro men will always remain - they aren't as consistent in practice.
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Hey op, Gents,
Put a chatroom together..

Got almost 100 guys..
We're working together on picking stocks.

If you're an intermediate, or above we'd like to have you.
Just add your email and I'll invite you
>>
>>1188976
if you've got a good track record then why would you want to go and be an employee at a bank?

I mean you mentioned systematic futures trading... if that is over relatively short holding periods then WTF do you need a job for. Go to somewhere like marex, bring your statements from your FCM and get some backing from them on a first loss basis... if you're actually as good as you're purporting then working for MS makes no sense at all. If you can show consistency then they can ramp up your size pretty quickly.
>>
>>1189037
>I think they just don't realise how hard it is these days.

kek, as if none of them have been talking to recruiters, trying to make a move to the buy side. If they could find a hedge fund job then a lot of them wouldn't be there!
>>
>>1189494
>It smells like success and I want to find out what it is (not a generic perfume smell, something specific)
In college I worked in a cattle feed lot. It smelled like cow shit. Owner used to tell us we were smelling money.
>>
>>1189559
>You're not going to find serious alpha from anything that's mainstream.
That statement is incorrect. Hedge funds sucked the last 2 years because they are all trading the same fucking way. Trend traders in commodities (except for Astenbeck and Glencore) have made vast fortunes over the last 18 months.
>>
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Former Morgan Stanley trader here. That's right, I worked in Purchase.

About your story, I don't believe you.
>>
>>1191916
hey, we're looking for leaders, and would love to have ya.
>>1191862
>>
>>1191841
I do the same amount of computer science/programming as electrical engineering in my engineering major. The rest is foundation engineering stuff like physics, math and other generic stuff.

Do you think 50/50 is a good split of CS and EE in my degree?

My major for business is finance, however, I can change it to be economics if you think that would be better for statistics.
I will see if there are any more data analysis courses I can take.
>>
>>1191916
Commodities?

I'm currently with them but in a satellite
>>
>>1191971
Budapest?
>>
>>1191862
>Put a chatroom together..

I only focus on the UK small caps, I never fit in these chats with all the yanks.

>>1191866
>Go to somewhere like marex

That is the back-up plan, going it alone. I did look into the arcades a while back and wrote them off as just margin providers, they probably would be the sensible route though, if I can't find my way into a fund.

>>1191916
>About your story, I don't believe you.

If I was lying, I would have said I got the job. It's all true so fuck off.
>>
>>1191866
Do you have any ties with marex?
>>
>>1191960

Which type of trading are you pursuing?
>>
>>1192524
why is it a backup plan? Large CTAs lend themselves to longer term strategies and you've got no chance at all with most of them unless you've got a relevant PhD, a large amount of their revenue is generated from simply accumulating capital and being uncorrelated with the rest of the market. They use very little to no leverage, returns are modest and consistent and most of them are probably overcapitalized these days.. There is limited capacity in short term futures strategies so it is a flawed proposition for these sorts of funds, high shape ratio short term approaches are better pursued with proprietary capital. If you're as good as you're indicating then it is a no brainer, reality might turn out to be much much different though.

>>1192526

Nope, started at a similar place though and I know a few people who trade there. It should be easy enough for you to arrange to meet them and bring in broker statements etc.. Worst case they maybe stick you on a sim for a bit and see how you cope... but really, if you're actually good, you'd probably want to put up your own capital on a first loss basis and get a higher pnl split.
>>
I'm studying Mathematics and I'm getting straight A's in almost everything. What can I do to get an internship at a big financial firm?

I don't have any relevant job experience, I do have a "side hustle" to make some extra money on weekends.
>>
>>1193225
>what can I do
get a minor in finance or accounting my friend
>>
>>1193258
That's exactly my plan. Accounting, Mathematical Finance or Tax Law or something of that nature.
>>
>>1193163
>There is limited capacity in short term futures strategies so it is a flawed proposition for these sorts of funds, high shape ratio short term approaches are better pursued with proprietary capital.

This does make a lot of sense, thanks for the viewpoint - I'll start finding out some more info.

>>1193163
>Nope, started at a similar place though and I know a few people who trade there.

Where did you start? Reading bits I have found about marex, it seems it is full of point and click traders trading the ES and bund - it'd be interesting to know what sorts of strategies they're using.
>>
>>1193225
I guess you are not from the UK based on your 'straight A's'?

Maths grads are in demand, you don't have to have a finance or econ background.

What's your "side hustle"?
>>
>>1193277
No, but I am from Europe.

>What's your "side hustle"?
Basically I work at an institution that helps high school kids with their homework and prepare for tests.

My job is to help them with mathematics, physics and history.
>>
>>1193289
That's pretty sweet, big companies are usually into caring stuff like that.

For working in London, quite a few of the other assessment centre candidates were from university in Paris, and one from somewhere in Spain or Portugal - I would think they are all from target unis, though.

So basically:

- Keep getting good grades
- Be from target uni
- Fit the mould (private school, president of lacrosse and investment society, lifeguard at some high-end hotel or leisure club - that sort of thing)
- Set yourself apart with some unique entrepreneurial stuff

That's to get your CV through - then you need to pass the SHL tests, go through 2 phone interviews, and also the assessment centre.
>>
>>1193318
>- Fit the mould (private school, president of lacrosse and investment society, lifeguard at some high-end hotel or leisure club - that sort of thing)

I should probably add - I don't fit the mould, it's clear from the way I speak (and my CV content) that I am not a private school rich kid. It just seems to be largely these kids that get into the jobs.
>>
>>1193326
I'm a "rich" kid, but I don't do any of that stuff like lacrosse, or frats, or whatever.

You could say I'm pretty much an autist, I like to go for a beer with friends once or twice a week, and that's it.

Not sure if I "fit" the profile, but eh, I could try anyway.
>>
>>1193272
>Where did you start? Reading bits I have found about marex, it seems it is full of point and click traders trading the ES and bund - it'd be interesting to know what sorts of strategies they're using.

They're mostly a broker/clearer... though they can provide funding/additional leverage to traders.

Started at Kyte over a decade ago.
>>
So is it safe to assume if you have a below average math ability you are very unlikely to get a spot at Canary Wharf or Wall Street?
>>
>>1193342
>Not sure if I "fit" the profile, but eh, I could try anyway.

It sounds like you don't, to be honest.

>>1193405
>Started at Kyte over a decade ago.

What's your current situation?

>>1193598
>So is it safe to assume if you have a below average math ability you are very unlikely to get a spot at Canary Wharf or Wall Street?

Below average for the general population? No chance.

Below average for a top 10 UK university? Possible, but you still need to get through their online tests and a paper one at the assessment centre (which I found harder, especially given the circumstance). So all in all, unlikely.
>>
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>>1193606

Well man cheer up you're 21 not 41.

If you can make it that far in the selection process you can do it again elsewhere.
>>
>>1193606
>What's your current situation?

fairly similar albeit automated... I'm not going to give any further details as it is a small world and I'd like to stay anonymous, I'm not sure how it is relevant either
>>
>>1192527
Prop, as I don't go to a target school. I got in to one of the best engineering schools in the world, but, not for the major I wanted so I went to a mid tier.
>>
The reason we don't hire traders who bring in their personal statements is because in the past we have been fucked by such people.

One guy had 2 accounts. He put the winners in one and losers in the other. He only showed us the winners.

Another bright fellow long ago was brought in to see if he had a winning edge in crude oil. before we let him trade we spent millions of dollars investing in his training and we taught him our way of trading. 6 months later he left our employ and started his own shop with just our basic training in trading skill.

We want smart, non-aggressive trade staff who can follow rules and direction. We don't give a shit about your personal trading skills. We'll give you that and make you rich using our ways. Computers are limiting your access to us because they consistently make money and don't get drunk or weird and get our name in the papers in a bad way.

I hope this helped.
>>
>>1193163
>high shape ratio
I think you mean "Sharpe" ratio. (Hopefully 2 or better.)
>>
>>1193878
I think the typo is rather obvious yes
>>
>>1193872
>before we let him trade we spent millions of dollars investing in his training

this is nonsense also:

>we don't hire traders who bring in their personal statements is because in the past we have been fucked by such people.

that is more a failure on the part of your firm really, if fully backing a complete unknown then you don't let them loose with size initially... or you give them a first loss deal where they put up capital. It really isn't hard to protect your firm against that.
>>
>>1193806
Focus on the computer science aspect as much as possible, take all module choices involving statistics/econometrics/data analysis.

That's what I would do in your shoes if I was focused solely on trading.
>>
>>1193872

Who are "we"?
>>
nice thread OP

I am currently trying the long route in life towards a trading job, very long. I'm in my final year of economics at leeds fucking beckett so still a long way to go until I am taken seriously

I started as a labourer for a data company setting up trading floors in canary wharf and was blown away by it all too, I've worked in every major banks offices in the area where they are paying 100k+ just to fit cabling with a 5% increase in speeds, anyway I thought fuck it and went to the only uni I could get into and will now go on to internship for free wherever I can this summer and possibly look into doing the CFA or a masters at a proper uni

any advice you could offer
>>
>>1193606
>It sounds like you don't, to be honest.
Do you have any other suggestions for places where to work with a math degree? To me it seems either financial industry or being a wagecuck at some dumb software company.
>>
>>1194935

I have seen a lot of successful people start out at a low-tier university then work their way into a top 10 for a masters or PhD, it doesn't marginalise you because you start at leeds fucking beckett.

I have talked a lot about the "mould" of the lacrosse club rich kid sort. Yeah, they get into prestigious jobs with ease - but the people who really change the game are always the people who have come up a harder way. I don't fit the mould, you don't - our struggle for credibility is likely the hardest obstacle of our careers and I am going to either break through it, or innovate around it.

From your post it sounds like you are after a trading job in a bank, so to get through the CV stage - fit the mould as best as you possibly can, get some snazzy entrepreneurial stuff that sets you apart from the crowd. I am a pretty introverted person, but with the phone interviews I was pumped up and on fire - they don't particularly ask difficult questions - just makes sure you have some ideas about some future economic changes, because they will ask you to talk about an "interesting upcoming event" or the like.
>>
>>1194943

With all the big firms in most industries, especially finance/accounting, they encourage applicants from all degree backgrounds to diversify their workforce.

It seems to me that a degree of any sort is just a badge that gives you some credibility - "I am capable of learning complex ideas". During a phone interview with an IB, I forget which one, the guy asked me why I decided to study at Exeter. I told him "I decided where I wanted to work, where my passion was, I needed credibility, and I undertook a degree to get that credibility - you take that one line off my CV that lists my degree, and I wouldn't be speaking to you right now".
>>
>>1195007
Alright, there is probably some financial institution out there where I can intern next year.

Just curious here, do these banks also hire people who have studied gender studies, to """diversify their workforce"""?

I thought it was pretty much just law, economics, finance, accounting, math and engineering.
>>
>>1195149
>do these banks also hire people who have studied gender studies, to """diversify their workforce"""?

I am sure a few have wriggled their way in. It pisses me off that the banks have all these "Women in banking", "Supporting women" internships where men are barred from applying. It is just plain discrimination, but for some reason discrimination against white & male is politically correct.
>>
>>1188924
>no one from LSE, UCL, or Imperial
That's odd. Anyone from the Wharf know why this might be? I've been told that at pretty much every front office finance-related thing you'll find at least one LSE person.
>>
>>1195201
Those were just the ones I spoke to on the day. When I looked on LinkedIn, a lot are from LSE.
>>
are sports betting websites popular in UK/Ireland?
>>
>>1195282
Yep. I don't use them, though.
>>
>>1188933
Did you come straight out of uni, or did you have jobs, other than your entrepreneurial roles?
>>
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How was the mathematical paper at the assessment centre? What did they test you on?
>>
>>1195149
>Just curious here, do these banks also hire people who have studied gender studies, to """diversify their workforce"""?

no, but if you've got a degree from oxbridge then subject isn't important... well you won't be studying gender studies there but English, History etc..

the investment banking side is more privately educated types anyway and being highly numerate is less important in investment banking than sales and trading
>>
>>1195312
Str8 out

>>1195334
20 minute numerical test. There were about 6 pages of interpreting data type questions. They aren't hard in themselves, just hard given the time constraint.
>>
>>1193790
>fairly similar albeit automated... I'm not going to give any further details as it is a small world and I'd like to stay anonymous, I'm not sure how it is relevant either

what a prude
>>
>>1188933
Trying to primarily invest in small-caps in American markets. Recommended books and any advice you can give?
>>
>>1188879


yo OP, let me tell you something clear.

You will never get a job with that attitudie. You are not humble and instead of saying: "Wow the other candidates were better than me, what can I do to be better next time"

you are like "MS doesn't appreciate me enough, they said I did the group exercise wrong but I was the main speaker, bla bla bla".

stiff up, and start checking what you are doing wrong in order to be better and don't stay a loser whining because the others didn't appreciate it or because the market wasnt the appropiate to get hired.

Look, last year I applied at MS too (for IBD). It was my first interview ever and I got rejected, I applied at other banks, learned from my mistakes, I improved and got a summer intership offer at another Top Tier IB (M&A) and after graduating this year I'll join the analyst programme. And I'm not even the bestof the promotion of my uni, I am top 25%, maybe top 20%.

Also got 3 friends who will joing the analyst programme (Traders). 2 at JPM and 1 at GS and all of them at invested before and had a portfolio with investments and talk about that during their interviews. Also, they had to do presentation with portfolio recommendations.

Kek, the "why not hedge fund question" is a tricky one to get people like you out. Do you think IB's will hire someone they know will try to leave for a HF ina couple years? KEK. They do the same at IBD, they asked me what my opinion was about Private Equity, obviously I said I was not appealed at that because bla bla.


At university they taught us about some type of people:

> When something goes wrong ithey blame on the others and when something goes well it's because of me.

and you just seem to fit perfectly to that description.
>>
>>1188997
Don't agree with this at all, if you've actually ever been interviewed for a company of this magnitude you would understand.. clearly not.
>>
>>1196154

I can't say any particular book was worth reading.

Watch the market, obsess over it in the longer-term. Most people give up within the first few months.

Small-caps are a volatile market - I always keep the following in mind when I am looking for new companies:

Invest protectively, not prospectively.
>>
>>1196750
>instead of saying: "Wow the other candidates were better than me"

They weren't.

>>1196750
>you are like "MS doesn't appreciate me enough, they said I did the group exercise wrong but I was the main speaker, bla bla bla".

I didn't say they didn't appreciate me enough. I mentioned that I was the main speaker as a reason their feedback didn't make sense - and why I believed it was a polite cover for a different, unknown issue.

>>1196750
>stiff up, and start checking what you are doing wrong in order to be better and don't stay a loser whining

I have already said in this thread, I recognise that an IB trading role won't be the best fit for me, and I likely won't be applying again.

>>1196750
>> When something goes wrong ithey blame on the others and when something goes well it's because of me.

It just wasn't right for me. I was myself, that didn't get me the role - it just wasn't where I was meant to be. You can mould yourself to fit a role if you wish, I will carry on backing myself. I know my value.
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