Daytrading

>>1150296
You need a lot more capital than going long for various reasons. Usually that means heavy leverage and steeper penalties for underperforming. When you have to pay that money back -LITERALLY - at the end of each trading day it is a lot more stressful. Not for everyone. Not for me.

Are you already trading under heavy leverage? if not, start there first

I'm only trading on a forex demo account at the moment.
Are the trading commissions so high that it decreases the profit that hard?

>>1150315
How much capital do you have?

How much do you need to make annually to survive on?

At the moment I am 20 years old and I just want to get in (maybe 50-100€?), but does my capital really matter?

At the moment - nothing.
I'll go study in september and I think a decent amount, a few bucks each day, is a good start.

I never made money day trading. The physiological effects of day-trading are devastating.

I've made tons of money buying and holding, however.

>>1150324
Most respectable platforms charge between $5 and $10 per trade. Say you have TD which is $8, each trade you make you have to figure in $16 in fees total.

Now, since you clearly need some perspective, a day trader is not something you could possibly do. Day traders buy heavily leveraged securities which cost significant amounts of money, and even more to hold for more than a trading day. They typically trade millions of dollars with the promise of paying it back at the end of the day -- literally by 4:30PM it must be sold. If you have a bad day you could go "out of business" as day trader, which not only means you dont have a "job" anymore, but you no longer have any means of making money at all.

It is extremely risky and you absolutely have to know what you are doing to profit

>>1150324
A few bucks a day is pretty easy to do but your time is better spent on other things. What's stopping you from sucking cocks? The problem is that you'll probably get anxiety and end up shitting on intuition and good habits and just lose a bunch in the process.

>>1150349
Also, this doesnt take into account taxes, which are quite steep on capital gains in the US compared to most other taxes we have here

if you have a decent setup its actually not that hard to make decent money. by decent setup i mean that you buy/rent a membership on the exchange you are trading on, so you dont pay that much fees. that you have a decent sized account(6 figures at least, but the more the better) so you can trade with a non shit tier broker. and you should at least automate part of your trading and if needed rent server space at the exchange if you need high speed. but yeah, if youre guessing direction from charts with a $1k account your chances are very poor.

>>1150394
just adding a bit to this :
if you didn't know, markets and finance in general aren't "fair". what you want to do is put yourself in a position where you have an advantage and then use that advantage to make money from those with less/no advantage. you don't need to be the best or the fastest to make money, but you absolutely need people that are worse so that you can take some of their money. its VERY hard these days to get an advantage without paying a lot of money for it one way or another. its like a ladder, to put it very simply you have the big firms / banks on top, smaller firms or traders with professional setups in the middle and then retail traders at the bottom. your main goal should be taking money from those below you without giving everything to the people above you in the process.

>living in europe

I guess I won't go into day trading then, seems like it's not really profitable and you can't get a high risk/reward ratio that easy with the fees.

how about longer periods?
days?
weeks?
months?

What do you do?

Would you even recommend going into trading at all?
What are other profitable professions I could take?

>>1150433
I buy lots of equities at least 100 at a time so I can also generate revenue by sellling options.

I then have a smaller portion of dividend lots that I just use to farm money quarterly

I keep $20k very liquid to dollar cost average or buy options

Then I keep ~$20k in checking/savings combined

Finally I make ~$80k/year and put 6% (matched to 9%) of every paycheck into a Roth 401k

>>1150433
week/month trading made me ~1800€ profit from last month. but they where somewhat risky and I had lots of luck

Okey, well, let me ask a few more things.
I've watched a few financial courses from Martin Shkreli and I've read something about the Institute of trading.

Does anyone of you know the Institute of Trading?
Has anyone taken the course?
Are they trustworthy and is it worth it?

What do you know anything about Anton Kreil?
Is he just big talk or is there something that's actually usefull for a trader?

I hope I don't get to much off-topic here

It's not like gambling. Gambling is a one time deal. If your bet fails, you lose everything. I'm not saying you can't lose money in the stock market, obviously you can but it takes the stock price going to 0 to do it. And that's if you put all your money into 1 stock. Inadvisable. And even then you usually get plenty of warning.

There's so much bullshit and fear mongering in this thread though.

If you keep it small, don't get greedy, use option strategies to increase your probability of success, I believe you can do very well. You're not going to win on every trade but you can stack the deck in your favor.

The house doesn't have an edge in the stock market. That's why the whole "positive drift" "buy and hold" thing does work over time.

Unusually, this thread has some actual intelligent replies. That must mean it hasn't been shit up with Robin Hood types, yet.

Most of this info is correct. I'm a trader and use large amounts of leverage in order to generate profits, but it's certainly not for the faint of heart.
You would need not only the large amounts of time and cash to put towards it, but also the discipline to pull the buy/sell trigger (or not) when you're down thousands.

Buy and hold works much better for the majority of people. Trading is just one of those jobs everybody thinks they want to do.

>>1150296
http://vantagepointtrading.com/archives/18529

You're welcome. Don't become just a flat earther fundamental analyst.

>>1150296
Bro. Day trading is overrated as shit. Requires large ammount of money and staring at a screen. Seems great because of self employment and big money but most day traders end up broke or quitting because it's fucking stressful.

Good luck op.

>>1150296
>Is it possible to make (constant) profit or is it more like gambling?
The reason this confuses so many people is that it can be either, depending on how it's applied.
Anyone can pick stocks randomly, that's effectively gambling. However, if you can hang in long enough to learn how the market works (expensive and time consuming), you can improve your odds enough to make it worthwhile.
The problem most people run in to is that they either weren't prepared to begin with, or bad trades and costs sink them before they do learn.

Hence the endless debates on this site re "trading" versus "gambling".

>>1151071
I was specifically talking about day trading, I don't consider trading in general gambling.

Have bots overtaken daytrading?

>>1151680
in a lot of areas yes, I can't speak for stocks/equities but in futures markets there are very few manual intraday traders left compared with say 12 years ago. Of those that are left a lot of them are not trading completely manually but are using colocated spreadders and/or involving developers to write other custom execution tools to be colocated at the relevant exchange. People trading manually do exist though but are in a tiny minority, tend to have been doing this for years and will have certainly increased the duration and decreased the frequency of their trades... they might be intraday still but they're unlikely to be scalping.

>>1150296
>Is it possible to make (constant) profit or is it more like gambling?

it is very much like gambling, that doesn't mean you can't make a consistent profit over time (though you'll tend to need to introduce some automation these days). It isn't something that is necessarily very approachable for a casual amature - at best, assuming they do make a profit for some period of time, it is much more likely to be down to luck.

>>1150315
the typical forex 'broker' provides an OTC model and forces you to cross their spread. Putting aside the various obvious conflicts of interest this spread represents a big cost in itself. The more commonly found edges in intraday trading are razor thin and some retail commissions and/or having to cross some arbitrary spread set by an OTC 'broker' can completely eliminate a lot of potential edges. Most profitable intraday trading requires low costs, good execution and high volume (and invariably some level of automation).

>>1151680
No. The expectations of the participants remain the same (because they are still humans) and even when they are not humans, automated participants are designed to read the market as humans.

>>1151699
Please enlighten me on how bots have overtook trading.

If anything, the bots introduced increased liquidity to the markets, reducing the bid/ask spread problem. And if you think speed is an advantage of bots over humans, you can just use bigger timeframes.

>>1150324
>does my capital really matter?

in theory no but in practice if it constrains you in that you're only able to use dubious bucketshops then yes it is a problem

you might be better off looking at sports markets on betfair and other betting exchanges as there is a lower barrier to entry yet the principles are the same, they've got APIs you can use to automate strategies or execution algos, they've got historical data, you'll interact with a limit order book.... I'd say you'd learn much much more from building something to trade on betfair and learning about market microstructure than you would from pissing about with some dodgy FX 'broker' using some of the more dubious methods of charting/technical analysis like most wannabe traders seem to attempt to do

>>1151708
It's not a "big cost". If you don't want to pay spreads, there are brokerages working for commissions.
You don't absolutely need to daytrade with timeframes such as 1m, 5m or even 15m. The size of 60m and 4H movements make the spread negligible: you'll pay like 2 pips of spread and win or lose 50~100 pips.

This thread is full of amateurs giving shitty opinions on a subject they know nothing about.

>>1150324
A beginner shouldn't risk more than 1% of the account on any single trade. Now let's suppose a reasonable risk-reward ratio and assume you'll be collecting a 3% profit when you win.

>>1150350
>A few bucks a day is pretty easy to do but your time is better spent on other things.
Once consistency is achieved one only needs to work on increasing volume. The same strategy that makes $10 everyday can make $1000 everyday, yet most trades are unable to make even "a few bucks" a day.
The difficulty is the same.

>>1150461
>Is he just big talk or is there something that's actually useful for a trader?

naff all use - they guy is just about hype and marketing... emphasizes his background as a trader at big banks - but he was mostly a sales trader it isn't like he was on the prop desk. If he was and if he was successful at it he'd probably be working at a buyside firm not selling trading courses to wannabees.

best way to learn aside from educating yourself with a rather skeptical eye on what you read is to be trained by someone with a vested interest in your success i.e. not someone you've paid to train you but rather someone who is taking a financial risk on you - i.e working at a prop firm or hedge fund

>>1151714
>Please enlighten me on how bots have overtook trading.

well you've pointed it out yourself - fundamentally they have an inherent speed advantage, this means that a lot of the edges locals could exploit by reacting quickly to changes in the orderbook are now eliminated or exploited much more efficiently by bots... ergo there are less screen based locals as 'bots' can do it quicker. Yes you will get narrower spreads, essentially the markets have become more efficient and costs are reduced. Whereas previously some local might have tried to spread trade in correlated makrets their edge is completely eliminated in a lot of cases by a colocated algo that can react much quicker, can keep a more accurate count of its own queue position and how incoming and changing orders within the order book affect both its current position, the probability of it being filled and whether it still wants to be filled at that given moment... locals with resting limit orders are then more likely to mostly get filled when, in retrospect, they probably wouldn't have wanted that fill. Bots are simply better - that is why there are far fewer locals and the ones that do survive are mostly using a hybrid/semi automated approach anyway. This is a good thing really, efficient markets are a good thing there is no free lunch.

>>1151720
that is still a big cost, perhaps you don't understand the implication. Sure the loinger the time frame the less of an impact but the fact is edges, real mesurable edges, are generally very slim regardless - some people do survive, as I've already pointed out, buy trading on longer time frames. manual traders will find it very difficult (if not impossible) to compete, long term, on sorter time frames. the costs are fundamentally important regardless for any timeframe that falls within 'intraday' trading.

>>1151731
even quant CTAs trading over days, weeks are incredibly careful re: costs, market impact. People dismissing it either don't understand or simply don't have a large sample set of profitable trades from which to properly study the impact of minimizing the cost of execution

>>1151729
>well you've pointed it out yourself - fundamentally they have an inherent speed advantage, this means that a lot of the edges locals could exploit by reacting quickly to changes in the orderbook are now eliminated or exploited much more efficiently by bots
Tape reading is not the only tool available to traders.

>ergo there are less screen based locals as 'bots' can do it quicker.
Do you realize that someone has to take the other side of the bots? In order to take advantage of such opportunities with institutional size, they need other institutions to take the other size. If such opportunities were obvious as you make it sounds, there would be no one to take the other side of their trades and there would be no trades whatsoever.

>>1151731
There's no such thing as a free lunch. You just have to deal with the costs. As I pointed, there's a simple way of dealing with spread cost. Costs are everywhere, if you are trading houses, cars, currencies, stocks or simply products for money. Costs are part of any business, deal with it.

>>1151743
>If such opportunities were obvious as you make it sounds, there would be no one to take the other side of their trades and there would be no trades whatsoever.

not true at all, there are various reasons people might trade and there are people trading across multiple timeframes, bots traidn g with other bots etc.. I'm just pointing out the simple fact that there are far fewer screen based locals around today than there were 12 years ago as their role has been replaced by computers.

>>1151743
>You just have to deal with the costs. As I pointed, there's a simple way of dealing with spread cost. Costs are everywhere, if you are trading houses, cars, currencies, stocks or simply products for money. Costs are part of any business, deal with it.

you need to minimize costs was the point, the fact that costs exist isn't in dispute so your statement there is rather pointless. The point is that edges for profitable intraday strategies are generally quite thin and the costs incurred in trading with an fx bucket shop or paying retail prices at a lot of brokerages eliminates most if not all of the edge making a lot of strategies unfeasible, yes even if trading on longer time frames. That isn't to say it is impossible with these costs just that it is far less feasible, frankly most retail traders would be better off looking at longer than intraday timeframes.

But even if a bot is quicker, faster and able to make more money, even if that were true, still doesn't mean others cant participate and take less away.

The options traders I've been watching and learning from specifically limit their maximum upside or profit to increase their probability of success. So they reap their profits at around 50% knowing they leave plenty on the table but use the time to invest in something else.

Just because someone or something else can do it "better" doesn't eliminate everything else.

>>1151749
>Just because someone or something else can do it "better" doesn't eliminate everything else.

that is true and no one is claiming that, bots have mostly replaces liquidity providers/locals... what you could refer to as 'daytraders' in the futures market - this is self evident to anyone with experience in this area in London or Chicago simply by the number of people(and indeed firms) employed in intraday trading on various trading floors. In equities it is more the electronic trading operations at big banks that are often unable to compete in terms of providing liquidity on public exchanges and have to rely more often on dark pools/internal order routing. In some respects though some of the edges available to manual daytraders on smaller timescales would be obviously more efficiently executed and therefore eliminated by bots too in the same way that they've displaced locals in futures markets.

>>1151748
>frankly most retail traders would be better off looking at longer than intraday timeframes.
In fact, I do agree with that, but you're making a big deal of spread cost. I agree with the previous point because it prevents overtrading and makes it easy on the emotions associated with trading. Also, it allows more time to think before making a decision.

>>1151752

It may displace or eliminate people in larger organizations but it has no effect on retail investors. That's all I was trying to say.

>>1151755
spread costs are a big deal in intraday trading, most of the more obvious edges intraday are in shorter timeframes and spread costs and/or not having low commissions simply make the edges impossible to exploit. It isn't so much a cost of business as a fundamental barrier to business these days. You can then look at longer intraday time frames as you've highlighted where you're holding period is over an hour... I won't say it is a complete barrier or that it makes things impossible in that instance but that it does make things much harder than they need to be. You'd need to have a very good method of forecasting those sorts of intraday moves and you'd be constrained to only taking a few very high probability ones.... even then, if you're not kidding yourself, it would still likely represent a large cost. Doesn't matter if you're aiming for 50 ticks or whatever, you actual edge from intraday trading is still likely small over a sample of thousands of trades and if you look at what you're paying each time through crossing the spread over those thousands of trades then those costs are a big deal.

>>1151770
sure, but the thread isn't about retail investors it is about daytrading. 'Bots'/algos are a good thing for retail investors as they reduce spreads, keep pricing competitive across exchanges and across related instruments.

>>1151749
which option traders

>>1151775

Ok, It just seemed to be suggesting that there was only one way to do things and that if you can't do it the best way, there was no point in even trying. That's clearly not true

>>1151680
>Have bots overtaken daytrading?

Look here. This is just a generic statement in the thread. And the answer is clearly: No.

>>1151779

I've been watching Tasty Trade. Definitely have a look, their knowledge and experience is great, everyone can benefit from watching some of that.

wow, this thread turned out to be awesome, thank you all for contributing!

>>1151723
I've heard that a lot of times now so there has to be something to it

>>1151724
So if I go into it I'll start with a low capital and after a few weeks/months I'll invest more if I am successful

>>1151726
> 20 years, no degree, start studying this year
How would I get someone to invest in me if I don't have any prior knowledge?

>>1151680
>>1151699
>>1151729
>>1151749
>>1151775
>>1151781
I guess there are many opinions on this topic

>>1151951
>start with a low capital
This will be a problem for you from the get go, as taxes, fees, and commissions will eat up a much greater % of your capital than someone well funded.
Unfortunately, it also means that only risking 1% will get you pennies, while larger risks remain out of reach because they could exhaust your capital in minutes.
A better idea than putting in a little at a time would be to save up a decent amount and then start.
Don't be the guy who can't trade for days/weeks because you keep blowing out your account and need to refill it.

>>1151995
is only demotrading until I know what I do a way to go?

>A better idea than putting in a little at a time would be to save up a decent amount and then start.
Not a little at a time, I'll start with a little (once) and when I feel a little bit confident I'll give it a go

>>1152001
>demotrading
You'll get mixed responses on that one.
Some will tell you it's worth the money to get practice and a feel of the markets.
Others will say that you're paying to have your perceptions warped, as you will subconsciously trade differently when real money is on the line.

>I'll start with a little
How much do you see as "a little"?

>>1152007
Little: €100,00

>>1151951
>How would I get someone to invest in me if I don't have any prior knowledge?

you probably won't with no degree and no knowledge

if you had a track record trading, say, futures then some firms would back you on a first loss basis. Some may consider backing you fully but the terms, profit split wouldn't be so great. This is all moot though as you don't have any money.

given:

>>1152139

if you're serious about intraday trading I'd repeat what I posted here re: looking at betfair instead
>>1151715

study something quantitative at university, get some programming experience, learn about markets... in particular learn about market microstructure, how a limit order book works, learn about time series data... apply to prop firms/market makers etc.. when you graduate.

>>1150347
Buying and holding whatf for example?

>>1151783
you try the Bob the Trader app?

>>1152214

Nah I'm just watching and learning right now. I did log into their Dough site though and went through their training courses. It gave me a lot of confidence just seeing some of the other newbies starting off. I'm just going to spend a few years paper trading and learning while saving and investing in funds for now. Eventually, I'll take some of my profits I make from those buy and hold investments and start actively trading with them while never exposing the majority of my capital where I might lose it. Mine is a very long term plan.

>>1152139
Is this supposed to be 10,000 Euro?

Gotta say, if you tried it with that amount in the US, they'd freeze your account (assuming you're trading equities).
You'd need more than twice that, unless you want be restricted on how often you trade. The SEC has a thing about "protecting people from themselves".

>>1152294
Nope, 100€

I don't even think about investing in stocks, my view was dedicated to forex trading

>>1152167
What should I study to work in the financial markets?
Economics?
Finance?

Looking for advice because I'm going to university in september but I have no Idea what to study to work in the financial markets.

>>1153411
>€100,00
>Nope, 100€
Ok, whatever.
Guess you'll be fine.

>>1153438
Thank you for your help, you are awesome

Hi guys.


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>>1153415
depends what you want to do within the financial markets really

I said you should study something quantitative, really it ought to be something you enjoy too as you want to ensure you're good at it. You know what your skill set is like, you know what you're good at and what you enjoy. You should probably try to figure out what you might want to study and do for a career based on that.

Because you can utilize leverage Forex trading requires very little investment to generate profits.

>>1152199
idk about that guy but when I was 17-20 I bought and held penny stocks. I started with $100 and ended it with 3.2k. It's nothing special, but considering I literally started with 100 dollars. I think that's pretty neat

>>1154568
How did you start?
What did you learn to get started with trading and not loosing?

>>1150296
Well people say buy-and-hold is the way to go but Keynes was doing >10% per year during the great depression with short-term trades

>>1150347
Medium-Long Term, best term.