Surviving a big law career

Where did you specialize, OP? Start a business and use your knowledge of the law to your advantage. Warren Buffett made it because he knew how to pull tricks legally and use law to his advantage.

That's why I didn't become a lawyer senpai
Not only is the market vicious, but your colleagues tend to be assholes

Start your own firm as a criminal defense lawyer

>>1095259
Tax and civil law. It has always been my dream to start for myself but I just don't understand why I just can't relate with my colleagues. I feel like an autist at work.

I know I'm no autist as I financed my law study with my own company and have many and very good friends. I'm like why tf do I fail at my career.

>>1095267
I guess you were right. Criminal defense is not my specialty though :)

>>1095251 (OP)
>when obviously more talented then your colleagues
You're not. If you're truly in BigLaw, then you're working with people who are at least as smart, as talented, and as skilled as you. And considering your age, most will have more experience than you. You are the bottom of the totem pole and need to accept that.

You've probably gone your whole life, so far, as the smartest kid in the room. You were special, unique, clever, and interesting because you stood head and shoulders above everyone else intellectually. But those days are over. In BigLaw, EVERYONE was the smartest kid in the room. You've lost your privilege card, and now have to try socializing and cooperating purely on your own personal skills. Not everyone makes the transition.

As for working with people you don't like, well, that's just part of the deal. People who routinely get away with being assholes at the firm are probably those who with billings, expertise, or connections that allow them to get away with it. BigLaw is a shameless meritocracy: it lavishly rewards the results, regardless of the person getting the results. Whether it's a good or bad system is debateable.

>Does anyone have any insights to make my life less miserable?
You're being paid a ridiculous salary to "endure" these "terrible" working conditions. Most people would eat a literal shit sandwich daily to make your salary and bonus.

But I'm not unsympathetic. I left BigLaw and started my own firm because, eventually, the political bullshit became too much to bear. But I did it with clients in hand and a ton of money in the bank. You won't be able to do the same, at least not for many years.

I'm not telling you to stay or go. I don't know you well enough to give that kind of advice. Your situation is hardly unique. But if the money alone isn't enough to make things tolerable, then you're probably better off moving along. It doesn't get better.

Source: BigLaw for 15 years, include equity partner

Dudes

Part of my job entails contract administration, but in a weak capacity...numbers and budgeting mostly. I'd like to sharpen my skills to where I can evaluate and revise such contracts. Most of the people I work with who execute the contracts have JDs.

I have no desire to go to law school just to learn this but would like to include it in my professional skills. Do you know of some research or training that would accomplish this?

>>1095299
Love your input. Thanks.

I really like my job but my social skills are probably lacking to thrive. That sucks and I'll keep looking for ways to improve myself. I always have.

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>>1095251
>lawyer at Big Law
>doesn't know the difference between "then" and "than"

>>1095363
What types of contracts?

You can learn a lot from going over specific model contracts with an experienced lawyer.

>>1095443
Typo, my mistake.

>>1095251
>still nobody gives a shit who I am and what I do just because I don't have a share in the power.


sounds like big law. thats how biglaw is. everyone has a large ego and are assholes.

sounds like you fit in there though, you are just mad that you are not getting your ass kissed. once you get a little power, you will be just like them - because sounds like you are just like them.

its not all bad though. you can start your own law firm or stay there for another 8 years and become partner and be the asshole you've always wanted to be.

someone has to do it

>>1095447
Well I'm not like (almost all of) them. I actually care about people whether they are potential stepping stones or not.

>>1095363
Contracts is a core law school curriculum class, and most law students spend 2 full semesters (some more) studying contract law principles. I don't know of any non-law school teaching resource that's going to ever put you on par with someone with a JD when it comes to contractual negotiations.

That being said, you could look for a contracts class for non-lawyers at your local continuing education center, business school, or trade association. Maybe such classes are available online too. Any such education may help you get better at issue-spotting and understanding the significance of key contractual provisions. That being said, I would be wary of holding yourself out professionally as some type of contracts expert unless you actually have a J.D. or decades of experience in contract negotiations.

>>1095432
You're welcome.

I empathize with your frustration. You can succeed wildly in education without having to kiss too much ass and shake too many hands. But it's unavoidably part of the game in BigLaw, almost from day one. Some people never adapt. But also, some people (like me) get good enough at it that it doesn't block their opportunities, even though they hate it. So just remember that you don't have to have sparkling social skills, or even like that part of the practice .... but you do have to do it.

>>1095449

you want money and power, as you get to higher levels, you'll rub shoulders more with people who want it more than anything in the world , and you will have to deal with them.

i suspect you are like that , and you dont realize it - what you are made at , is that you are not being treated like a special snowflake. which is actually ok, you should follow your nature

but at this point you've thrown in, you should bang out 2 years minimum, and then readjust, lateral. its unlikely at 2 years out you'll have a client base to start your own firm, or live at the level you become accustomed at that point. so you can lateral to a smaller firm or maybe find a partner there that you can tolerate working for

>>1095465
> I dislike not being treated as a special snowflake
I like this insight. But should I resign expecting to get treated with respect?

>>1095268
I graduated from a pretty well respected law school in 2012, and before that owned my own business before the real estate market crashed. I went the tax/transaction route and have worked in Big4 since graduating (have also self-studied for the CPA and have one exam left).

Honestly, I would switch places with you in a heartbeat. I've had to hustle on the side doing real estate closings just to earn a decent income (my base salary is probably half of a starting big law associate based out of a large metro city). The hustling has paid off as I've paid off all of my student debt. However, no law firm, or hiring department, will give me the time of day because I don't have "big law experience."

You are "in" the club - just embrace it. Some of us will never have that chance, no matter our knowledge, experience, or technical abilities.

>>1095444
Mostly research agreements

>>1095454
I guess I was trying to determine if that curriculum/set of skills was small enough for my currently available resources. Coincidentally I work at an institution which has a law school you've heard of and could take the courses for free. Unfortunately I don't have the flexibility to commit to anything formal right now. I might find some syllabi and check the reading. Thanks for your estimation.

>>1095496
>I work at an institution which has a law school you've heard of and could take the courses for free.
I don't want to diminish the opportunity, but I do note that law school classes are not the same as college courses. Most law classes are taught in the Socratic method, meaning that the student is expected to do much of their own learning in preparation for class, and to essentially serve as the teacher for other students while responding to questions from the professor. To keep up, you'd be spending most of your time reading old cases and UCC statutes, instead of simply reading the black-letter principles like in a traditional course. I just don't know how much value someone would get from sitting through a law school class like that.

But I admire your willingness to learn, and I don't want to dampen that at all. Good luck.

>>1095488
You work at the big 4 and can't make the switch to big law? You'll start at the bottom - but why not? The big 4 pay less than big law but still extremely well.

>>1095539
Been trying for a couple years. The answer I keep receiving is that I don't have "legal experience," even though a lot of my experience translates well to a law firm. Starting at the bottom is not a deterrent for me.

What I have noticed with respect to tax jobs is that LLMs are coveted. I at least have years of technical experience, as well as a CPA. I'm not going to spend more money on an LLM just to improve my chances for a tax law job.

Without internal referrals, my big4 experience doesn't shine through a hiring department. The one referral I had at least got me on the phone with HR, but they really needed someone on the ground in a different state (and I cannot relocate).

I went to a shit law school because during the last recession, everyone either got their J.D. or their MBA because we were stupid and thought it'd be a nice shelter to bear out the storm and come out with a marketable skill. I had no delusions about ever going into Big Law, because I knew that they just don't hire fags like me who go to T4 schools. Which is fine, because I didn't want to do it anyway. Everyone I knew who did it quit after about two years because the hours were murder and the potential for promotion was nonexistent. I make a comfortable wage working for the state for the time being, but I still wish I'd never gone to law school. If your debts are already paid off, which they should be if you're actually making a Big Law salary, then you're really no worse off and can just pack up and go do something else. Law's just a shit field. If you went into it for the money and liked nothing else about it, you went into it for the wrong reasons.

>>1095251
Jesus christ

Get the fuck over yourself

You certainly have the raw intellect but you could use a few life lessons OP. Believe me I'm speaking from experience here.

How can I find a good law firm for internship?
I don't have contacts and nobody likes to hire male interns even though I have a great average.

>>1095299
>>1095488
>>1096272


Is the job market for lawyers getting better or worse in years to come?

You hear all the stuff of technology and internet changing things along with deregulation and outsourcing but isn't that the case with all jobs?

Is it just a meme or are they right and being a lawyer will change drastically in the next few years?

>>1096489
Part of the problem has been that the recession created so many fucking lawyers. When people couldn't get jobs, they ended up in graduate programs, mostly law and business. So you had an increased supply of brand new attorneys and all of the vintage ones were holding on for dear life to jobs that, in a non-shit economy, they would have quit. Now that everyone realizes law school is a terrible investment, the supply of lawyers is normalizing again.

I really don't know how much technology is going to change the game. When you really look at it, technology hasn't done much to change the fundamentals of the practice of law in hundreds of years aside from recordkeeping. At the heart of it, it's one thing to use some internet service to do something stupid that you've always been able to do yourself for free, like write your will. It's quite a different thing when you're looking at jail, getting sued into oblivion, or negotiating the terms of a contract. People tend to want an actual person sitting next to them in times like that instead of their iPad.

I went from working for a top five European law firm to being a defense lawyer for the government.

My salary is less than 10% of what it used to be but I couldn't be happier.

This is mostly because I'm not a massive consumerist. I don't mean that in a hippy sense. I rent happily because having a mortgage feels like prison to me. Once I had a nice phone and laptop and a nice apartment to live in i was pretty much done. All of my salary just kind of accumulated without me ever making a conscious effort to save.

So in conclusion OP, stick it out for five years. Save all the money, then quit and do a job that's not fucking miserable.

You will never be happy working for a firm like that because take it from me, the shit you described in the OP never changes.

>>1096513
Can I ask how much you're making and how much rent is where you are? I'm curious if pay in the public sector and quality of life are at all comparable to how it is here in the U.S. Also, did you have to go through a graduate program, or is it like it is in most of the world, where an undergraduate degree is enough?

>>1096513
>shit that never happened

>>1096489
>Is the job market for lawyers getting better or worse in years to come?
There's no easy answer for this. Law tends to be cyclical, following the ups and downs of the economy but delayed by 6-12 months. Some practice areas are immune, such as tax and estates. And some are actually counter-cyclical, such as restructuring and litigation. Lastly, the supply doesn't remain steady either, as law school constantly vacillates between popular and unpopular, seemingly without rhyme or reason.

>>1096489
>being a lawyer will change drastically in the next few years
I think >>1096501 explained it quite well. Technology is changing how we practice, but not the practice itself. You still need a person to stand up in court to argue your case with skill and vigor. You still need a person to write the best contract possible for your unique circumstances. Government regulations, be it environmental, tax, securities, etc., are getting more -- not less -- complicated over time.

So, no, you're not going to have a robot lawyer for a very, very long time.

Hi lawbros
Question about guidance.
I'm currently studying law in France, I need one more year to be a lawyer, then another one to have a specialization.
I would like to go for international law firm. But absolutly not in France.
Im looking for a well paid specialisation, and I hesitate between businesslaw and international tax law for legal entities.
Wich one is the most researched by recruiters ? are they equally paid ?
In France tax law is not very popular because law people hate maths and then its well paid because of the lack of candidates.

Does your law firm ever recruited european lawyers with an american LLM from quality lawschool ?

>>1096945
Sorry bro but you study French law. It would be silly to hire you for American or any other Anglosaxon or civil jurisdiction.

You can however get an appointment with a French desk in a foreign country. You just need a law firm with a desk in the country of your choice. Be prepared to work with a pretty small group of colleagues though.

To answer your other questions, international tax law is without a doubt the best paid field and its also the one I am active in. It's easy peasy to find a job in tax and if you ask me it's fun as hell too.

An LLM might get you hired in the States but I wouldn't torture yourself accepting a job with so little background in the Anglosaxon judicial system. You would be setting yourself up for failure.

Unless of course you are extremely good and motivated. In that case proceed. Again, international tax law is the most searched after and most lucrative choice.

>>1095449
No you don't. You've already assumed that you're smarter^more talented than all of them and you're generalizing all of your co-workers as assholes. You are the precursor to the asshole boss, you simply lack the power and time needed to seamlessly stop caring.

>>1096970
Well I'm not good at the asshole game then I guess.

I am better than the colleagues of my experience at least as far as it concerns creativity and knowledge.