Fuck unions.

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>>1001103
>Fuck unions.

I will drink to that

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>>1001103
>>1001319

But seriously...

Unions say they are out to protect the working class. They make life "great" for a few working individuals. Some workers realize they can be super lazy.

Bob is one of the lazy workers.
>can't fire me, I'm union

Frank is a hard working mason. He is actually the best mason to live in the 21st century. He goes to the union hall looking for an apprenticeship.
>sorry bud, we are full. Maybe try some non-union gigs.

Bob's son turns 18 and graduates highschool the same day that Frank is turned away.
>Congratulations Bob Jr. You are now in the union.
>Do you know anything about the skilled labor we provide?
>No. That's okay.

Now, the union has two worthless "skilled" craftsmen, Bob and Bob Jr. Bob and Bob Jr both demand a 15% raise over 3 years. Plus they want better health insurance, for free of course.

Now construction costs increase.
The unions say we get better finished products with their highly skilled workers. But wait, Bob and his son both suck at their jobs.

All the while, Frank is waiting tables at Buffalo Wild Wings.

Union worker here.

I work in a union/non-union environment.

>I do the exact same work as another guy on the job
>I get paid 260% more than him
>I get better benefits
>I get paid holidays and time off

Feelsgoodman

>>1001515
What is the benefit for the non-union person to not join the union?

>>1001103
>>1001319
Spotted the cucks
>hurr durr I want worse pay and treatment from my employer
>I'll do anything to make my boss Mr. Shekelburg wealthier!

>>1001682
this

Funny thing about unions is it's like you're against the company that you expect to take care of you the rest of your life.

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>>1001738
Exactly. I don't understand why these kids hate unions so much even though they get great benefits. Granted, it can get out of control, but if you're not a jew nosed business man why should it fucking matter???

>>1001771
because they take 20 bucks from my paycheck every other week

BASTARDS

>>1001103

Fuck company policies that prohibits you from union protections that you are paying for because you go on light duty due to an injury that is the fault of another company worker.

And fuck unions that can be paid when you aren't protected by them.

>>1001671

Not paying X% of pay to the union, probably.

>>1001771
Because I'm sure somewhere out there an imaginary strawman like Bob and Bob Jr exist. Probably. And that Frank doesn't have his Bob days.

But seriously, as I saw someone say here: "if your workers unionize, it's because you deserve it". Don't treat your employees like disposable tissue paper and they won't feel the need to stand up for themselves.

>>1001866

Both situations probably exist: workers using unions to fuck their bosses (either due to boss inexperience, personal greed, grudge against rich), and bosses fucking employees so hard that they force a 'closed shop'.

Basically, both sides have good points, but both sides will scream I'M RIGHT at the other and no one will actually think 'gee, there's probably a middle ground we could reach here'.

>>1001515
I work on the other side.

>get paid hourly, but I do maybe 5 hours of work a day
>fixed 40 hour week
>A/C
>can walk around, play with my phone, and bullshit as long as the tests get done
>awesome benefits
>ability to flex your hours as long as you get 40/wk
>good pay
>we shut down for the weekends and major holidays

The union guys have it good, and we do too. Feels good working for a company that values their employees.

Worked in union shops in the union that sucked. Worked in non-union shops that sucked.

>>1001873
True. Hell, in that thread where I picked up that quote, a few others chimed in that they would actually help their employees unionize.

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Unions almost killed my city.

The steel industry here collapsed in the 80s. Guys were making 40-50k (1980 dollars, close to 70k in today's money) to just be senior and push buttons. Newcomers would start at something like 45k in today's money, and that was just with a high school degree. Every year, they would re negotiate.

GM had to purchase Japanese steel when the USW wouldn't back down from its nationwide strike threat. In 83, the whole bottom fell out. Tens of thousands were laid off, entire works closed. The Asians did it cheaper.

>>1001912
Unions didn't destory those industries. They were always shit. The companies had poorer quality steel then Indian, Syrian, and German/French Steel. WW2 fucked up everything and the US dominated for over 30 years. USSC downfall was the result of poor management, speculation, and no innovation in steel metallurgy.

Meh. I work in HVAC and started at $10/hour. Turned 21 and went to a bar. Met a guy in the same trade and said I was being robbed. Told me about his Union, I applied online and used him as a reference. I got in and now I make $28/hour at my new job. Of course Unions take a percentage but it still pays more than being non-Union.

>>1001921

The mercenary makes the most money, and the companies are just as ruthless whether you have a union at your back or not.

>>1001912
and where do you think those workers would have been if they had never unionized in the first place?

>>1001927

Most people on /biz/ ignore the fact that workers got fucked in ways that are inhumane before they teemed up.

>>1001917
Pittsburgh was the steel capital for 100 years, WWII was definitely a boon, but wasn't the reason it existed. I'm not saying it was totally the unions, but the vicious fight between labor and management certainly didn't help at all.

>>1001927
I'm not anti union. I'm just pointing out that unions can be harmful, they were useful then to prevent abuse, but (in theory) we have government regulation to keep that in check now.

>>1001934

Of course, the government regulatory committees can be affected by the actions of lobbyists, which the individual worker cannot match.

Is iffy, even if the abuses now are no where near the violence and abuse of the pre-50s.

>>1001943
Very true.

I've been sort of trying to figure out what killed the U.S. steel industry, and really American manufacturing. I'd be interested in in depth books or articles on the subject, because I've never really been able to get a clear answer.

Also heard that management took profits and paid bonuses/dividends, instead of investing in modern processes and equipment.

>>1001934
>I'm not anti union. I'm just pointing out that unions can be harmful
that's a fair point, I do wonder sometimes what I'm really getting for the money I give to my union every other week but I also haven't actually bothered trying to get involved with it and haven't had any grievances with the management of my company.

>>1001956
>trying to figure out what killed the U.S. steel industry
Free trade policies cucked the US into closing down all its manufacturing and importing it from overseas.

I do believe unions came about as a well deserved backlash to corporate abuse. But it's also easy to argue that the pendulum has swung too far the other way.
Example: I was paid $60,000 (over 5 years) for 6 hours of work on a union gig (commercial shoot). I'm certainly not going to complain about the pay, but I'm sure others would point out how lopsided that seems.

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>>1002036
Or we would all be earning money like that if incomes had kept up with inflation, instead of diverting more money to our CEO Mr. Shekelberg and his shareholder friends.

>>1002036
You have a SAG card don't you?
>>1001934
Pittsburgh was the steel capital, but it didn't have high quality. That belong to Delhi, and whatever is the other fucking city. Pittsburgh produced modest quality at a cheap price.

>>1001956
>>1002008
American manufacturing isn't dead, it just doesn't employ many people.
>The end of slavery killed american agriculture!

>>1001103

YEAH! People certainly shouldn't collectively bargain for better wages and treatment!

Keep the pyramid going! Some of us will make it to the top and become rich!

>>1002183
The correct assessment is they can't compete with China.

>>1001928
why would /biz/ or 4chan know or care about history or human rights, though... all 4channers know is about anime, shitposting and wasting time

>>1001928
That was long before any of our times. Unions have outlived their usefulness and just promote laziness and make it impossible to fire anyone anymore

>>1002045
We would all be making 60K for 6 hours work? Somehow i don't see that as sustainable.

>>1002084
They offered me one. But I didn't want to pay $1350 (?) i think that was the going rate back then.

>>1002282
The US competes just fine. The US produces $2 trillion in manufactured goods. 21% of the world's manufacturing output, and has done so for the last 40 years. It employs 12 million people to do it. And fewer every year.

China produces $3.5 trillion, but takes 100 million people to do it.

>>1002588

>China produces $3.5 trillion, but takes 100 million people to do it.

Yep. People talk about Chinese manufacturing but what they don't realise is how inefficient they actually are. It takes 3 Chinese to do what one skilled first-worlder can do, since most of the factory and construction workers there are bumpkins making things that they never knew existed until they reached a big city. Then you have to factor in the transport inefficiencies; China is a country where your speedometer rarely sees double digits. That adds costs. Then you have a lack of standardization there. If you've ever been to China you would have seen how trucks are packed; what is a pallet? This adds more costs because of overhandling. And so on and so forth.

>>1002588
>The US produces $2 trillion in manufactured goods.
The US used to produce 85% of manufactured goods after WW2. Now it produces 20%. Thanks China.

Having unions in factories is one thing, but why do teachers need them? Don't like the pay being offered? They don't work there!

>>1002683
uggg...Then don't work there.

>>1001333
There are very good reasons why people fought and died for the chance to have unions. This dumb little fantasy scenario you dream up doesn't invalidate any of them.

>>1002686
>There are very good reasons why people fought and died for the chance to have unions. This dumb little fantasy scenario you dream up doesn't invalidate any of them.


Correct, it doesn't invalidate why unions came into existence. It does serve as a point that unions have over-stayed their welcome/usefulness. The labor costs associated with union work is out of hand. Soon infrastructure will no longer be affordable.

There are enough government oversight departments to ensure occupational safety and prevent discrimination. You do not need unions.

I am a professional engineer in the construction industry. I deal with union contractors and non-union contractors on a regular basis.

inb4
>anon is just upset that the poor construction workers make more than he does
I really do not care. I feel that I have a better quality of life. I do not have a hard ass boss barking orders at me, I am not slowly destroying my body to the point that I will barely be able to walk in 20 years, etc.

>>1002706
>benefits from union monopoly on engineering licences
>decries unions as too expensive, unnecessary
Please gas yourself.

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>>1002714
maybe I just want to
>Make America Great Again

>>1002733
Kek.

Nah you and doctors/surgeons/lawyers/accountants just keep the supply of workers artificially low so you can enjoy comfy salaries.

>>1002734
There is currently an oversupply of lawyers. Although I'll agree with you, that licensing boards are a problem. Hopefully the recent supreme court decision in North Carolina Board of Dental Examiners v. FTC starts fixing that a bit.

>>1002399
I disagree. It's not to say that unions are perfect but it's likely that without them, we could go back to those times.

>>1002683
On the other hand, you can't be fired for completely political reasons, or for not teaching that a magical sky wizard invented the world.

>>1003150
wasn't it mostly the union that killed little debbie?

>>1001671
They make you work for 1 year as a non-union slave before you can apply to the union.

>>1001882
Yeah, this gig is pretty decent. Last job was union based and the fucks could never get anything passed because they were literally going up against a larger stronger union to get anything.

>Pay freeze for 10 years.
Nope. Got the fuck out. Plus I got to skip the waiting period at my job because same union different chapter.

To quote the standard union rhetoric "Unions are great, unless you're not in it."

>>1003147
If only there were a happy medium...

>>1003099
>the recent supreme court decision in North Carolina Board of Dental Examiners v. FTC
Wow I didn't even know about this. That's pretty based.

>>1003150
>you can't be fired for completely political reasons
Have you tried announcing to your coworkers that you're against feminism or think mexicans should be deported?

FUCK OFF LIBERAL RETARDS

>unironically supporting unionization
>on /biz/ of all places

Get the fuck out

Can someone explain why unions are bad and what they are please? Why do some people like them and others object? I'm foreigner.

>>1004651
i know absolutely nothing, but here goes rudimentary explanations:

Unions are, in the basic sense, organizations( for lack of a better word) dedicated to helping out the individual laborer. They lobby and petition for better wages and benefits( medical, dental, and so on) for people in them, and also protect from retaliatory acts from an employer to an employee. An example of this is a manager or supervisor sexually harassing an employee, then firing the employee if they try to speak out or some such. thats the gist of of it.
People part of a union love them, as they get some crazy good job protection and other stuff after they put their time in to the union and such, others hate them due to fact it makes it very hard to get certain jobs and lots of other things that escape me. Look up tenure for teachers to on youtube or something get a better grasp of what im trying to convey.

>>1004663

The underlying belief is that unionized workers are a drain on company resources as they have less reason to be as productive and efficient as non-union workers, since firing a union worker is a massive and expensive pain in the ass.

Also that a union hinders a company's ability to grow since growth requires work which union workers are not going to do more of than what is stated in the union contract. You need me to stay late? Union says no! Basically, the belief here is that a union dissolves an employee's ownership of their performance and produces an us vs them mentality between the employee and the company.

>>1004651
Also, all the corporate benefits like health care, savings plans, retirement plans came from union efforts. Usually a corporation will give its non-union employees the same benefits as a union employee.

The power of unions rose during the Great Depression. Union benefits extend past a worker to his/her family too.

Don't hire union workers

If your employees try to unionize and you hear about it, fire everyone and start over

>>1005856
>>1005847
>>1005814

/biz/ knows

>>1001103
thankfully it isn't only privileged internet trolls on biz does the stock investing bourgeoisie who cry about unions, it is the basis of an entire political agenda

>>1005856
thanks moma thatcher and daddy reagan

>>1005847
no nono anon, economics taught me everyone is a perfect logical machine capable of pursuing maximum utility and their actions do not have any affect on others.

>>1001333

I'm in a union.
This is not necessarily accurate.

You are generalizing, this might exist somewhere but not in any of the trade unions I've seen on the job.

>>1001861

Do you make more than you non-union counterparts and/or have a better overall package?

car manufacturing industry is dead in my country because of unions
royal commissions into mass corruption in unions across all industries, politicians involved of course
on the ground level in construction they arent a problem at all and have only helped. contracts involving lots of government money is hell though.

australia btw

>>1006941
All manufacturing in australia is dead bruh, similar in every other developed country. You can thank based china and company for that, not unions.

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ITT: union shills

>>1004530
Yeah, how dare you not be a slave.

>>1001103
Everything comes into this world for a reason, and so did unions. No point raging.

>>1006941

>contracts involving lots of government money is hell though.

See: New Royal Adelaide Hospital.

>>1006960

Then how is it that the US, Germany and Japan still build cars?

First world workers usually have higher wage costs but cheaper labor costs.

>>1001912
It takes a non-union authority to sign a contract with a union authority.

Why aren't you blaming management?

>>1003099
>North Carolina Board of Dental Examiners
I bet they see 20 or so teeth a year!