is abortion murder? personally, I think it is but I wanna hear

>>743537533
Look at it's tiny feet and hands
Of course

Abortion is murder when the organism is capable of sustained motility and reproduction.

So basically as long as it's not a toddler yet you can slide it down the laundry chute and you're fine as far as I'm concerned.

>>743537533
nah killing a few cells isnt murder
its like removing a tumor or something

>>743537904
so killing bugs is also murder?

they're just bugs fam

>>743537904

>sustained motility0

Abortion is murder at every level. A bundle of cells is still a human in some form of development. Killing any life is murder, even plants. To think otherwise is lying to yourself. That said, not only am I all for abortion, but there are groups who should be encouraged to have them--like single moms, parents in shitty financial situations, or if the kid is going to be retarded.

Justifiable homicide. Distinct and different than murder.

not murder
totally fine from a moral standpoint

>MFW people think a bunch of multipotent cells consititutes a living organism

>MFW people think a living organism deserves to live by virtue of being alive.

You fucks realize that's saying "Slavery has a right to exist because otherwise it wouldn't be slavery" yeah?

>>743537533
Probably, yeah. I mean, these same people would be livid as fuck if you gave them an abortion drug and they wanted to have a kid. Probably even call you a murderer.

Abortion in its current form is just a way for people to run away from their consequences. Perhaps sterilization should be offered at the same time to avoid repeat customers.

>>743537904
>reproduction
so anything before puberty?

>>743538018
Who says there's anything wrong with murder?

Might be murder but I'd still be prochoice because there are many situations where pregnancy ruins future parents careers since they need to take care of the kid, or ruin future for the darn kid because not everyone is ready to take responsibility for upcoming ~20 years

>>743537904
I would go with motility or reproduction, rather than and. It wouldnt be murder if I was infertile? heh.

as for >>743538018 ,
I think it is murder. But like you said, it doesn't matter that much cause they're bugs. I think that's what >>743538409 meant, too.

God put a living soul in there. it's funny how idiots believe they didn't murder a baby. if you or your girl aborted you will pay the price in gods eyes you murder your own child. If I could of been there and you decided no you took that life away.

>>743538168
too bad your parents missed on you.

>>743538522
isn't that between them and God?

>>743538168
Way to play devil's advocate you Fuck.

>>743538348
>>reproduction
>so anything before puberty?

Only if they're a shitty lay or cry too much.

>>743538409
>>743538461
I'd say there's no problem with murder so long as it has motivation and steps are taken to prevent undue suffering

Personally, I feel like if it has to be done, like it'll kill one or both of them to die as an example, then it's ok. Or maybe if its a rape baby, not a horrible reason to get rid of it.

If you go around having unprotected sex and just don't want the baby then you deserve to have your ovaries cut out.

and then there's the matter of not being able to support yourself and the baby, that's a hard one for me. If you can carry to term it should be given up for adoption.

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>>743538541
>too bad your parents missed on you.

>>743538602
>devil's advocate

Pssh, I can think something is murder and also that it's justifiable you black and white thinking faggot. Maybe murder is the wrong word. It's killing a human life. And if I have no stake in that human life, why do I give a fuck?

>>743538659
So..
Hm. So you're saying that murder is okay if it
A) Is done for a reason and
B) Attempts to minimize suffering
?

>>743538694
If you aren't able to support yourself, you shouldn't be having sex.

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maybe once it's nervous is developed enough to feel pain

>>743538694
So a rape baby's should be killed? What did the baby do. His father was the only evil one. Not the baby that's pretty unfair don't you think?

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How do you feel now? Do you think its alive?

It isn't human life until it develops a brain and can start thinking/feeling things, until then, it's a goddamn parasite

par·a·site
ˈperəˌsīt/
noun
noun: parasite; plural noun: parasites

an organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense.

>>743539064
what about the mother?

>>743538996
yeah basically.

that's why I'm cool with eating chicken; their lives are terrible but are better than they have been and at the time of death they're killed pretty quickly and painlessly (thankfully that's also the most efficient)

same thing with abortion, if the fetus is gonna just be in pain forever or if it would be born into a shitty situation, we're saving a lot of pain and heartache down the road by killing it off now

>>743539007
>support yourself and the baby
Reading is fundamental

>>743537533
that fat little whore broke that perfectly good basket

>>743539141
>It isn't human life until it develops a brain and can start thinking/feeling things, until then, it's a goddamn parasite

Most niggers fit that description.

>>743539122
Literally not even real. Embryos aren't even close to that humanoid at that size.

And even if it were, how is a cluster of sprawling around cells of any justifiable value?

I could make a petri dish of protein wiggle, does that deserve to spend 9 months multiplying in a womb?

>>743539122
ayylmao

Without the abortion, it becomes a human, so, yeah. It kills people.

>>743539007
So, let's require people to have a job before they can consent?

Even if it is "murder" I see literally nothing wrong with it, just as long as it isn't due in a month.
Also, if we want to start calling abortions murder, let's call everything on the dining menu animal murder/abuse/corpses/cadavers.

>>743539141
I feel really sorry for children who grow up with parents who share your shitty mentality, like holy fuck just don't have kids if this is the way you look at reproducing

>>743539122
No

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>>743537533
Sure. Call it whatever you want. Murder. Killing. Destroying. It doesn't matter. Aborting unwanted babies will do far FAR more good than harm.

Making it illegal to do so is based solely religious and and personal morals rather than the good of the person, community, and country.

I would rather the fetus be "murdered" or "killed" then have a family and country be burdened by it.

No. Is miscarriage murder? No.

If you've a problem with abortion, why don't you give a FUCK about soldiers who die for you? Kids with cancer? Starving kids in Africa?

The truth of the matter is that you don't give two shits about the child or the mother. You care about BIRTH, not life.

What a bunch of fucking morons. You can draw imaginary lines at different points in the child development cycle if it makes you feel better, but it's still killing a person. And there are plenty of good reasons for a person to get killed, whether that person is a full grown adult or a couple of cells. Until we live in some utopian society where women get paid to have their embryos sucked out so they can be raised in vitro and sold off to adoptive parents, an unborn child has no rights and you should be able to end its life at any point in time.

>inb4 its current year

>>743539203
That detracts from my point how?
>>743539360
No, I'm saying stop making bad decisions. Don't buy a yacht if you can't afford to maintain it, don't have sex if you can't support the offspring. I don't get why people have such a hard time with that concept.

>>743539340
In the same way condoms kill people, sure.

>>743537533
no.

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>>743538996
and if he is faggot what are you gonna do about it?

>>743539402
Oh, you misunderstand
I love kids
But a fetus is not a kid

Sure, it has the "potential" to be a kid, but it also has the "potential" to be retarded, which is another good reason to abort that shit

>>743539462
A miscarriage isn't a murder, it's manslaughter. At least it should be according to these retards.

>>743537919
Exactly. Jews are like tumors too, nothing wrong about killing all kikes either.

>>743539064
No, the baby didn't do anything, but the emotional trauma could cause the mother so much stress it kills the baby anyway, or she kills herself, or all that shit.

It's healthier to get rid of the baby, which doesn't even have a brain yet, than it is to cause that much harm to the mother.

On a side note, the actual circumstances of the rape make me feel differently

>>743539504
a sperm is half a person, tbh, at least in terms of potential

Saying a fetus has the "Potential" to be einstein is nonsense.

It has the "Potential" to be put in a can of soda and sold as a cure for impotence as well, doesn't mean that it needs to be preserved for that basis.

>>743539502
>don't have sex if you can't support the offspring
But, I can support the offspring.

Da gubbament senz me dem checks. Got dat Obama money rollin in, ya dig?

>>743539504
I was talking about aborting the result of sperm and egg fertilized, not your weak assed haploids.

>>743539488
So masturbation is murder?

>>743539122
it's alive in the sense an ant is alive or chicken is alive. It's not even started to acquire the sort of information, associations, or distinctiveness that make humans out of homosapiens. Since this conversation will inevitably lead there "are feral homosapiens and pre-humans human and therefore entitled to those basic rights?" No they're just animals and are only treated delicately because we feel it would diminish us in some moral capacity to destroy them as such.

>>743537533
Yeah it is, so it's a good thing, less fucking humans the better

>>743539830
Yes, masturbation is the epitome of "necessary evil".

>>743539600
No fucking kidding. These whack-job don't even understand that miscarriages are NORMAL.

Tragic, yes, but if your development has gone sideways and you're not biologically feasible to maintain yourself, it happens.

Hell, most first pregnancies result in a miscarriage.

Lets just take the babies into the street and shoot them, problem solved.

>>743537533

It's killing, but not necessarily murder. Depends on your definition of murder though.

The thing is, no one has an obligation to use their body to sustain the life of another individual. Even if I invite someone to hook up and use my kidneys to keep them alive, I'm allowed to rescind the offer. Women have the same right when it comes to a pregnancy. That doesn't mean a fetus (at least one with personhood) is worth nothing; it should make her at least think twice. I.e., I wouldn't recommend anyone get an abortion because I find it morally fraught. But ultimately an abortion is her right.

>>743539733
You miss the point, again
I AM FOR ABORTION
ABORTION GOOD
GET RID OF THE BURDENS OF SOCIETY

>>743539587
I think retards should be killed because they are not fit to survive. Animals kill there young if they know something is wrong with it why shouldn't we?

>>743538312

I like you I think

>>743539933
checked, also an estimated 1/3rd of all pregnancies end is miscarriage.

>>743539787
Good point. Mandatory birth control implants for anyone on welfare.

>>743538522
God is a lie fagot

Late term abortion should be legal.

I know a few 20 year olds who need put down.

>>743537533
No. Giving birth is murder. By allowing an embryo to grow to the point where it develops a nervous system condemns it to the pain, suffering, and ultimately death.

Plus, abortion is green.

>>743540004
Exactly, that's what I'm saying
If my girlfriend came home with a diagnosis that the baby was gonna be born with downs or some shit, I'd seriously want to convince her to abort

>>743539933
>>>743539600

Yes fuck. These people who want fucking autopsies and funerals for miscarriages are fucking insane.

My wife got an abortion for us earlier this year. Best decision ever.

>>743540176

I dunno about down's. I know at least one cool down's chick. But ultimately it should be up to the woman who's pregnant with the damn thing and will have to raise it.

Who am I kidding. I wouldn't want a Downs child either. Too much work with not enough payoff.

>>743537533
yeah, but it's not any more immoral than pulling the plug for someone in an indefinite coma

>>743538312
A single cell constitutes an organism. It is feeding and multiplying. It's alive. It's also human, unless you can cite for me specific examples of two humans copulating and the result being the birth of a tree. Or a car. Or a cat. Or perhaps a trout.

>muh choice
>abort a woman
>muh choice > her choice

This, like so many political arguments, is a symphony of hypocracy, on all sides.

>>743540379
on many sides
>on many sides

You're right, though.

>>743538522
there is no god

>>743537533
I've killed a kid by abortion before... I regret it because it is murder.

>>743540379
>A single cell constitutes an organism
In that case, conception is murder. Only one sperm cell makes it to the egg. The millions of others die. And speaking of eggs, is menstruation murder too?

>>743538522
Which god? What if Allah put a Muslim soul in there?

>>743537533
Zygotes deserve the right to vote, own a home and equality of education

>>743540379
yeah it's an organism. if you're bringing it to a fundamental level there's absolutely nothing wrong with killing anything.

And in general, abortions lead to a healthier society

>>743539122
it may resemble a tiny human but it doesn't have consciousness yet.

we dont have a memory of anything that happens in the womb until a certain period in development.

plus the affect not getting aborted has on the person who is carrying the fetus to full term should be that person's right to decide

we already have too many fucking people in the world, we dont need more fuck-ups with parents that didnt want them growing up to not contribute to society

>>743540085
>>743540477
How do you know? You don't just like I can't prove there is a god you can't prove there isn't a god.

>>743537533
I look at it as if the the thing is still a clump of cells than its like a seed that hasn't germinated can't really call it a plant

>>743540379
So if I cut off my thumb, and give the cells a way to continue living, aka feed and multiply, it is a human?

>>743540379

Young fetuses don't have interests though. You can destroy them without taking anything away from them because there is no "them" to take anything away from. They're proto-persons in the rights sense, not persons.

Later term fetuses are a tougher matter, but frankly I don't even think newborns are fullblown people like the rest of us. Thought experiment: A five year old and a five minute old infant have both ingested poison and you have only one dose of the antidote. Who do you give it to? It's obvious to me you should give it to the five year old.

I'm 50/50 on abortion being murder.
On the one hand, killing babies is rad, but on the other, it gives women a choice, and I really don't support that.

>>743537533
You can't murder someone if they are not born yet
Also your not alive until that baby takes his or her first breath

I wish society could have an honest discussion about abortion. Unfortunately any discussion is going to include "muh feelings, muh magic man in the sky, muh hell/heaven, muh could-a-been-a-astronaut"
People in general are too retarded to actually be rational in abortion discussions.

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>>743537533

Kill it. Kill it with fire.

>>743537533

No. Furthermore, babies are the least valuable humans around since they have the least experiences and developments.

>>743540707
I don't need to prove to you that God is real, that would defeat the purpose of faith.

Absence of faith is a learned behavior, not something we are born with.

>>743540379
A deceased human body has the same number of particles as a living one.

>>743540960
faith is the learned behavior, dogs are atheists

>>743540739
They used to kill babies for lots of reasons for thousands of years of human history. They weren't wrong.

Also by your logic, a full grown adult should be saved before a young child. I'm okay with that, being an adult.

>>743539122
not for much time

Numbers 5:11-31

>>743540960
Faith is not something to be proud of. It's literally just believing in shit that you have no reason to believe in.
It's a learned behavior to believe in an evil spider monkey that rules the earth- that doesn't make it any less dumb or more important.

>>743537533
abortion is not murder thats the best solution, unless is past the week 21 when the fetus can feel pain.
i prefer an abortion than a kid crying in an orphanage being raped by pedos.

>>743539122
Fake and gay

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>>743537533
is eating an egg murdering a chicken ?

>>743537533
anything before a fully formed brain is fine to kill
>everything after is murder
this is the real world
not some fantasy land where we have to listen to a bunch of fuckin idiots debate on when exactly it's ok to take a human life.
Science lays out all the rules on the fuckin table
you don't have memories or any sort of experiences without a brain
a human can be kept alive for years without almost every single part of themselves except the brain
so NATURALLY, that means it's the only part of you that actually matters when deciding what exactly is you.
If you wouldn't keep ONLY a heart pumping for centuries without any of it's other body parts because it's no longer a person
why the fuck would you keep it alive in your womb if it's eventually grow into a burden that's going to dig you a financial hole you'll never climb out of?

>>743541101
How do know your dogs an atheist? You can't talk to a dog about god.

>>743537533
Yes, it's murder because it's taking a human life. Human life begins at moment of conception. Arguing whether it's "potential life" or not is immaterial. It's human. It's life.

Having said that, I support abortion rights up to a certain time limit, as a public policy. We can't have women going to back room alleys. Although there's plenty of that now, still.

So: Personally, it's murder. Publically, we need abortion in certain circumstances.

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>>743541445
you see the nigga prayin' and shit?

you see him saying his hail marys?

you see him paying his recommended 10% tithing when the plate gets passed around?

>>743541113
>Also by your logic, a full grown adult should be saved before a young child. I'm okay with that, being an adult.

Not exactly. On my logic what matters is having interests that can be threatened, interests defined in terms preferences and goals and values. Five year olds have them. Fifty five year olds have them, but I don't think newborns do. They're more like blobs that still have developing to do.

OTOH, my logic might require me to say that the severely mentally retarded or demented don't have the same right to life as a normal healthy person. I probably would bite that bullet, depending on the extremity of the disability.

If a bald eagle abandons her nest, you can't strap down and force the eagle to stay and sit on her eggs.
You can't force someone to take on the medical risks, stress, and economic burden of carrying a child to term or at the very least until the point of likely viability.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't care; all I care is that I'm not tied down by child support payments to some whore I fucked in high school and thought I loved. Forcing her to get that abortion has got to have been the best choice I ever made, I dumped her ass after and didn't even give her a ride home from the clinic.
Fucking trying to force me to marry and start a family before I even went to college.

Now I'm an engineer with a hot ass wife, we make about $400k a year together and live above everyone else, neither of us want kids despite our parents being all pissy and the rest of our families thinking we are selfish cunts because we don't want to waste our lives living in poverty like them with a bunch of children.

My cousin makes about $150k himself, his wife just popped out a 4th and he has a shit house drives a honda, and complains about going to decent restaurants because "he doesn't have any money".

We spend our vacation on trips around the world, they spend their vacation at home doing projects and fixing shit that they can't afford that falls apart.

Moral of story? Abort and don't look back. Live your life for yourself, not to be a poverty stricken breeder.

>>743541534
>Arguing whether it's "potential life" or not is immaterial. It's human. It's life.

So why isn't it wrong to disconnect life support from a brain dead person? It's human, it's alive.

>>743537533
High quality bait, I'll bite.

Nope, not murder. These posts say it all >>743537904
>>743537919

>>743541547
>>743541547
You just can't speak dog he might be praying? Dogs don't have a money system but they have things like bones and chew toys they might contribute to there god/gods.

>>743538522
Which of the 200+ proposed gods done this? Yeah, didn't think so.

>>743537533
Yes it is. Buuuut if killing a baby makes an already living person's life better than who cares? It ain't even a spawn kill for the baby. That would suck. It's more like the game won't load.

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>>743537533

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Nope.

You can't murder something that doesn't even know it exists.

Also - failure to abort could be considered iindirect murder since there are far too many humans here already and each additional person is merely accelerating the demise of the species.

So, put succinctly, abortion is the most 'pro-life' thing you can do.

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>>743542046

>>743540960
Faith is literally an invention some asshole came up with to keep getting money from people who realized that the assholes can't prove any of the shit they're claiming.

Faith is not a merit, not something to be proud of. If you used the basis of faith for anything other than god you would be considered a fucking moron and lunatic.

>>743539999
Check'd quads.

I'm all against abortion, but.... fuck.... quads.

>>743537533
Is eating eggs the same as eating chicken?

>>743541803
Did he say it was wrong lol

>>743537533
Do you have more pictures of naked woman in laundry baskets?

>>743542049
It is because that fetus will most likely have a conscious. It's not a dog. Dogs will never think like us at least in our life time. It's murder. That being said, I don't give a fuck of babies are murdered. Why do people have to justify it in all sorts of way? It is what it is. Murdered baby = less shitty life for the parents. Also, babies aren't miracles. They're a dime a dozen. They happen every day. People aren't special.

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>>743541753
Well fucking said

Yes, but i agree with abortion for certain reasons, teen pregnancy, being too poor, or health.

>>743542174
Ask a vegan.

>>743542439
What if you just want to feel powerful? Sometimes I wish I was a girl just so I can get pregnant and get a baby sucked out of me with a dyson

>>743542141
>Faith is literally an invention some asshole

I see this a lot as an argument, but I've never seen any sort of evidence for it. Can you all least site a source before putting your faith in this theory?

>>743542368
>that fetus will most likely have a conscious
That's just silly.

>Folks need Porsches, Hoes need abortions
In all honesty, its just last minute contraception and should only be used on rape children, retard children, and hoes.

>>743542727
Reason, common sense, logic, etc.

Man this is some low quality bait, but after the thing is like 7-8 months I think its questionable at best.

>>743542779
I think that's everyone.

A collection of cells is alive, but it isn't what we consider a valuable life until it has a developed brain. Sperm is alive to, but it's not a valuable life. It's not a human yet. If I were brain dead it would be better to be unplugged than left leeching off of society for no reason. Same goes for an unborn child. Once that brain starts working it's murder and we shouldn't do it. If it's a fucking zygote, flush it. Why would you care about that? Seriously? It's soley because of peoples faiths in things that aren't real. Stop believing things that have no evidence. The murder of the children unborn who have developed brains are the faults of the religious, because we are still having the debate about whether or not it is life. We wouldn't if people would stop throwing their stupid religious ideas in there. God doesn't exist. He can't. It's not even a debatable thing. It's literally the most ridiculous theory ever dreamed up. "Gigantic magical man who lives in the sky made the universe with magic"... Are you fucking stupid? Stop messing with peoples lives because of your stupidity.

>>743542727
You know how you feel about every single other religion, god, or world view besides your own?

That's how every other intelligent person feels about yours.

>>743542874
That's not a source.

>>743542368
>>743542774

Whats wrong with preventing yet another consciousness from occurring?

Life mostly sucks. Its like a work prison none of us asked to be part of. Do that fetus a favor and pull the plug before it gets completely booted up and suffers like us

>>743538312
That's a really interesting point. I've been on the fence about abortion (my fiance is getting one done, and I'm ok with it), morally.

>>743537533
no, you're sub-human.

>>743543061
Not sure why you replied to me, but I concur wholeheartedly.

>>743543026
Stop proving my point.

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Life is hell.

Abortion = preventing souls entering hell.

I don't see the problem.

>>743542999
Nice trips.

>That's how every other intelligent person feels about yours.

Yes, but the way people feel aren't indifferent facts. I'm looking for a source for his claim.

>>743537533
Murder is just a word we came up with. Whether a thing qualifies as murder or not means literally nothing significant.

>>743543116

Don't be broken up, especially if the fetus is at the non-conscious stage. It has no interests; you're not hurting anyone.

>>743537533
Look up the word "Murder" and ask yourself again.

>>743537655
kek

>>743543214
>Stop proving my point.

I should've known you were a teenager.

>>743543282

Murder is a form of wrongful killing. You're worried about the concept of wrongness, not murder per se.

It doesn't matter what individuals think, it only matters how it's defined by law.

>>743543061
Not sure why you replied to me either. I said exactly that if you bothered to fucking read you simpleton

>>743537533
It depends.

>>743543250
Where are your 'indifferent facts,' then. You're the one making the claim that there is a supreme being. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

>>743543404
26, but thanks for playing.

>>743543434
What is wrong is subjective. Would it be murder to kill a terrorist? Is that a wrongful thing to do?

>>743543345
Oh I'm not torn up. I'm super happy. My country has similar reproductive laws to the USA, which means men have literally no control over their own future.

>>743543614
Yes. You would be denying him his 72 virgins. Shame on you, you Islamiphobic bigot.

We all die anyways. The only thing in question is when?

>>743537533
she looks surprisingly comfy

>>743543903
Exactly. Why make an embryo suffer the woes of life first?

>>743540960
>Absence of faith is a learned behavior, not something we are born with.
do you really believe that to be true?

If so how? How can you possibly delude yourself into thinking something as obviously retarded as this?

>>743537533
I don't care if the fuckin thing is conscious and screaming, it's a fucking parasite and the hosts body rights come first.

You're gonna go up to a free thinking pregnant woman and tell her that her body doesn't belong to her for the entire I months? Good luck.

>>743544261
9 months**

>>743537533
It is alive, so technically yes, it is murder.

But It's a good thing, if you don't want it, it's better making it die before it is born than not loving it.

>>743542174
technically no, but if we are using this example the unfertilized egg only counts as an egg or sperm

>>743543026
Unlike you, I don't claim to have all the knowledge. I have evidence based beliefs, not a book.

>>743537533
>Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
>unlawful
abortion is legal. so no, abortion isn't murder. unless it occurs where it's legally defined that way.

you free to think it should be illegal though.

Can anyone send me abortion meme's? (202) 560-0105 Thanks! How do you make a dead baby foot take your foot off its head.

>>743539842
>>743540700
You guys are idiots.
There are plenty of arguments in favor of allowing abortion, but "human life is special for some arbitrary reason" is not one of them. The fact that you actually think that's a valid or logical argument shows you're pretty unintelligent.
Human's aren't special. We're animals. Our lives aren't more important. Our lives don't matter more than the life of any other living thing.
Grow the fuck up.

>>743544342
Hold on lets see why youre a retard.

Okay so Murder


Murder means the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

so

It is alive, so technically yes, it is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
but abortion isnt illegal and until the end of the second-trimester its fairly unreasonable to consider it a human.

so, technically, youre a fucking retard.

>>743537533
It is but people should be able to do it because there are too many people who shouldn't have kids having them.

When i shoot my load onto your dads face is it murder

>>743545030
No its not.

>>743537533
If it's murder, why isn't the birth date the date of conception?

Czechmate, idiots.

>>743543614

You're talking to a Philosophy PhD who's been thinking about this since he was 14. Moral relativism/subjectivism is what every kid who gives it a little thought thinks is true, but it's not actually the way things are. I'm too lazy tonight to go into details I think, but suffice it to say that with a little evolutionary psychology and Wittgenstein you get some pretty robust conclusions about wrongness.

Anyway, as for the terrorist, depends on the circumstances (Has he killed anyone? Is he your prisoner? Is he repentant? Is he in the process of igniting his suicide belt? etc./)

>>743539122
Hello my baby hello my honey hello my ragtime gal

>>743544891

Your post raises the question: If we had no laws, would there still be murders?

>>743537533
If it has a heart and a brain and capable of feeling pain and was created by the use of Human reproduction it's a human, ever heard of premature babies? abortion is murder murder in this case but people try to delude themselves and say it inconveniences me so i'll get rid of it!

>>743544780
> "human life is special for some arbitrary reason"

Morality is concerned (minimally) with what benefits and harms human beings. It's not arbitrary; human welfare just happens to be the main concern of moral conceptual space.

Whether or not there are reasons to actual be moral is a different question.

on the one hand, I don't like whores getting abortions because they had too much sex
on the other hand, you're born with rights not conceived with rights
you can be conceived anywhere but if you're born on US soil you're automatically a american citizen

>>743537533
its better than the alternative.
>a dead kid vs muh munneys the kid loses every time

>>743545794
>If it has a heart and a brain and capable of feeling pain and was created by the use of Human reproduction it's a human, ever heard of premature babies? abortion is murder murder in this case but people try to delude themselves and say it inconveniences me so i'll get rid of it!

But what about >>743539967

>>743545688
By definition no. Wouldnt that be obvious?

>>743543579
>You're the one making the claim that there is a supreme being.

I've never made any such claim. I'm simply asking you to provide evidence for your claim, and it's like pulling teeth so far. You keep pussy-footing, twisting things, or trying to turn things around instead of giving a proper reply.

I think the semantics isn't particularly important, as even if it is murder, not all of the former is created equal.
I believe that the life that an unwanted child, and the life of an unwilling mother would both be poor. Sure, there will be outliers, but in the majority of cases, parent/childhood will be of a poor quality, thus producing poor quality people. Very opinionated but that's my take.

>>743545573
>robust conclusions about wrongness
Give me the cliff notes. I'm curious.

>>743545794
What does a heart have to do with it? Do you think that's where emotions come from?

>>743546058
It's not a human right, the baby inside is also human why should it have less rights than the person who is the mother of it

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>>743545962

>>743546175
What claim are you asking me to provide evidence for then, you trolling cum bucket?

>>743545794
>If it has a heart and a brain and capable of feeling pain
So after the second-trimester ends its becomes murder. Good thing abortions happen much earlier than that then.

I think abourtion should be treated like amputating a limb

>>743546175
i guess that i can't. however, you can't prove otherwise so your original argument is a stalemate.

>>743545794
>premature babies
> heart and a brain and capable of feeling pain

3 months into pregnancy neither of these things apply.

>>743546100
>By definition no. Wouldnt that be obvious?

Think of it this way: Assume that some things are wrong. Now, what makes them wrong? It can't just be that laws make things wrong (or else what would be wrong would depend on whatever a legislature or a king passes laws against.) If it's something else (e.g., wrongness involves subjecting someone to harm or inferior treatment without justification) then you can have wrongful acts sans laws. You could, then, have wrongful killing.

Why isn't "murder" a perfectly good (and common) way of referring to wrongful killings? My intuition is that if I killed you tonight for fun, and unbeknownst to us the government and court system had completely dissolved seconds earlier, I'd still have murdered you

>>743546321

'Cause it's her body doing the work to keep it alive, and we have a right to bodily autonomy. Hence why I can disconnect the kidney guy.

100% of these people who are against abortion would still do it in a heartbeat if their personal circumstances called for it. Also, it's not murder if it isn't a sentient being yet. If you think that it still is, then you're a murderer every time you masturbate by that logic.

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>>743537533
Yes, abortion is always murder. The tricky part is that all cultures and societies, etc. both abhor and venerate certain types of killing.
First some basic scientific facts:
>life begins at conception
>killing baby 1 day after birth: murder
>killing baby 1 day before birth: murder/abortion?
>killing baby 180 days before birth: abortion
>killing baby 270 days before birth: morning after pill
Where do you draw the line? At what point are you okay and not okay with the killing?

Another example: walking next door and killing your neighbor: murder, not okay. Walking into the next country and killing everyone: war, justified, you are a hero. Strapping a criminal to the chair and frying them, capital punishment, justice served. You get the picture.

Personally? I've gone back and forth on this a lot but I currently hold what I feel is a fairly eugenic and compassion-based stance.
>no holds barred abortions: not allowed
>abortion in the case of rape, incest, or passing genetic problem: required
>abortion in the case of risky birth: mother's choice

>>743546616
I'm curious. Why do you keep replying to posts that replied to me? Are you samefagging or just weird?

>>743546767
>My intuition is that if I killed you tonight for fun, and unbeknownst to us the government and court system had completely dissolved seconds earlier, I'd still have murdered you


Okay, You may have killed me and it may have been wrong but regardless of that you, as I've said, by definition have not murdered anyone. Is it really that hard for you to understand words mean things?


Murder does not mean "wrongful killing"

Murder means he unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Therefore, once again, if there are no laws by definition you cant have murdered someone. How is this so hard for you to understand?

>>743537533
Yes, but so is giving birth to someone in the sense that they will die ANYWAYS.

>>743546912
>no holds barred abortions: not allowed
But why? What's the difference between an abortion and killing a pig for a BLT?

>abortion in the case of rape, incest, or passing genetic problem: required
>required
What? That's a little authoritarian isn't it?

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nah not murder kinda fucked up but not murder.

id say you shouldnt be allowed past the half way mark because you easily could of planned your partner / livelyhood in that time

but beforehand if a partner leaves or something goes wrong where the child cnt be fniinancially supported, it is cruel to bring them into the world

tldr; no after 6 months pregnancy, yes beforehand
but lets be real, fetus'es do not feel. they have no conscience
same reason babys cant remember times before they were 2

>>743539647
There's nothing wrong with being Jewish, faggot.

>>743537533
More pictures of pixie girls curled up in laundry baskets. Less philosophical bullshit.

It's not murder. Murder would imply it's illegal, when it's not. Well unless you live where it's illegal.

>>743547374
It sure is a good thing people don't get abortions that late into pregnancy unless deemed medically necessary then.

>>743546300
>Give me the cliff notes. I'm curious.

I actually wrote up something about this after a previous 4chan argument. It's hella informal, but it ought to be a fun read. Here's a dropbox link

/s/07fa4k6hz6gksga/Anon%20-%20Morality%20in%20a%20Nutshell%20Draft%20Outline%20-%20Copy.docx?dl=0

>>743547516
Here, here!

>>743547330

Dance stolen from Beavis and Buttfuck.

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>>743537533
I am unsure?
What I am sure of?
If it is not yours. It is mostly not your business. Only the parents should decide.

BUT to make conservatives happy? I would agree it should not be used as birth control. There should be a life time limit of 3 abortions if you have not yet learned methods of contraception by that time you should not be allowed to keep aborting babies. How ever I am often offended by conservatives who claim to be pro life even though what they really are is pro birth since they do NOT support adoption or welfare or medicaid after the child is born.

>>743547565
Also it would require that the ball of cells is defined as a person legally. As long as both are true it would indeed be murder. Otherwise, it would not be.

>>743547608
I'm not sure what to do with that.

>>743547159
The difference is that it's a person and not a pig.

Yes it's a bit authoritarian. It's forced eugenics. Western culture suffers from a complex propaganda machine encouraging smart and beautiful people not to breed. Meanwhile low class people have 12 kids on the dole. This is not sustainable and will inevitably result in massive suffering. Better to start taking control of the reins. If people did it voluntarily of course that's preferred.

>you likely already live in a country where certain types or cases of abortion are "authoritarian" decided for you, like that british kid that was born but not allowed medical care, basically a post-term abortion

>>743543861
Wouldn't that grant them access to the virgins?

>>743547131
>Murder does not mean "wrongful killing"

I understand your point perfectly; but it's a mere semantic disagreement. I just deny that the legal definition of murder is the only one. It's perfectly legit to define murder as wrongful killing; I'd argue that's a common use of the term in natural language.

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bortion is awesome.
my life would be total fukup without it X2

Well. more fukup anyways.

>>743547740

just paste it into your browser with dropbox [dotcom] in front of it

Absolute indifference. Do whatever the fuck you want. However know that just as you have the right to blend your baby with a coat hanger, we all reserve the right to judge you for it.

>>743547760
>basically a post-term abortion
They decided that further treatment was the equivalent of torturing a baby so that the parents might feel better or hold onto false hopes.

So basically it was the prevention of child abuse.

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>>743547673

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>>743540628
When will you learn? The God of Hebrews, Christians, and Muslims is the same God. The God of Abraham. Admittedly the view of Christ's divinity is not the same among the 3. Jews see him as a liar, Christians believe he IS God, Muslims only see him as a prophet of God.

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>>743537533
Yes. But it tastes so good!

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>>743547678
>Only the mother should decide.
IFTFY

>>743547760
At that stage, it might as well be a pig.

>>743547884
A) I was saying don't kill the terrorist because murder. B) It was a joke.

>>743547895
If you understood the point then why did you question it twice instead of offering a counterpoint? Why not simply say that you disagree with my definition of murder and then make an argument for that point?

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>>743548347

Hey man, some babies are born alive looking worse.

>>743548033
And letting something be born just to watch it die is what?

The point is, we in western society generally prefer to abort as soon as possible, to avoid the chance of any suffering to the person before it develops a consciousness or anything close to that. Akin to putting an animal down to avoid unnecessary suffering, you don't just let it slowly die in pain.

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>>743542999
Odd while I have no opinion on his religion?
I think you are an arrogant prick.

Speak for yourself rather than "other intelligent people"...

>>743548816
>Why not simply say that you disagree with my definition of murder and then make an argument for that point?

I thought that's what I did. That's why I asked "Why isn't "murder" a perfectly good (and common) way of referring to wrongful killings?"

>>743537533
>is abortion murder?

only if it's a white male baby.

>>743538522
>God put a living soul
Really? which one?

Before 3rd trimester, no.

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>>743548319

>>743537533
>is killing someone murder

>>743548934

I kekked

Hypothetical scenario:

A laboratory is on fire. To your right is a cradle with a newborn baby in it, to your left is a basket with 10 embryos. You can only save either the baby, or the embryos.

There's your answer.

>>743548893
How is this at all relevant to the post you are responding to?

>>743537533
It's legal, so WHATEVER you think about it morally, it is not murder.

>>743538168
>Killing any life is murder, even plants. To think otherwise is to know the definition of murder.
FTFY

>>743549210
No just ask this guy
>>743547895
>>743546767
>>743545688

>>743549202

Ding ding ding!

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>>743547502
Not that I support harming them.
But God seems pretty angry at those who claim to be Jews now days.. Revelation 2:9 or 3:9 Not a group I would want to belong to at the moment.

>>743549033
Zeus if the only real god, so he must be talking about that

Fuck, I wish it was as easy to make up religions nowadays. That shit would be easy sailing. Funny how people think every other religion was just made up by someone expect their's. Because there's no way the one they believe in could possibly be made up like all the other fuck ton of them.

Have you ever noticed that 100% of people that are pro-abortion were never aborted themselves?

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>>743548858
Looks like Moot. What else do you have?

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>>743548693
It did not need fixing. Both parents should be involved in the decision. Since the Father can be held liable for Child Support. He should have a say in the matter unless the Mother is willing to sign contract absolving him or alternatively if he is willing to take soul custody and cover all expenses.

>>743546912
You know plan B isnt an abortion pill, right?

It's not murder. The people who are charged with a murder when they kill a baby inside a pregnant woman are guilty because the woman being pregnant with abortions openly available pretty much confirm she had intent to have the baby to term. Even if our own legal terms were proving it to be murder, i feel women should have the right to murder their babies. Fuck babies, overpopulation, and any deity from trying to make more people exist on this world.

>>743549523
L Ron Hubbard seemed to do OK with Scientology. What is stopping you?

>>743549582

And that the aborted never have abortions? Blessed be the aborted.

>>743537533
lets all be fucking honest here murder is just late term postpartum abortion. so yes abortion is murder but murder is also abortion so i don't think its wrong

>>743550146
Moron.

>>743548029
Of course you would go straight to the trolley problem, lol. Would you switch tracks? Just curious. You kinda just swept me aside there when you discounted nihilist, et al. I think in the end the rationalist perspective wins out. There is no concrete right or wrong and there never can be because things that I enjoy, you might not. The only reason people are moral is because it helps them in some way. Maybe I didn't really understand what your point was in the ought-is argument. Seemed like Science guy was making good points, and then it seemed like you were making the same point... idk. I'll have to reread it.

>>743537533
Eugenics would solve a lot of problems. I'd say as long as the purpose is to prevent disabilities or other defects, abortion is necessary to the advancement of our species. As long as it is being conducted as early as possible, it should be considered humane.

>>743549770
Well, no. The father can not force the mother to keep the child if she doesn't want to. That infringes upon her rights. If she decides she doesn't want it, paying child support is the risk men have to accept before having sex.

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Murder is defined as Killing with Malice aforethought. Which means killing with premeditation or immoral motive.

So the attitude while killing matters.

I hate Cacti, when I shoot them with my shotgun? I AM committing murder.

>>743549960
Well people have trouble believing that my glass of water started glowing and talking to me. Told me what I had to do to reach the afterlife. What confirms this was an omniscient being is, I shattered the glass of water out of fear.. But it came back 3 days later fully repaired and talking to me again on my kitchen table.

>>743550325
>>743548029
Sorry if my response was a bit simple. I didn't want the thread to die first, so I mostly skimmed/power read.

>>743548965
But thats not what you did.

you said "Your post raises the question: If we had no laws, would there still be murders?"

to which I respond "By definition no. Wouldnt that be obvious?"

It's okay, but only if the niggers do it. That is who it was meant for anyway.

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>>743550492
Well yes if that Father is willing to pay all costs and then take soul responsibility for the Child?

The Mother SHOULD be forced to act as surrogate and carry to term.

Having a Child is the risk women have to accept before having sex.

Goose Gander Done!

>>743539830
>haploid
>diploid
>zygote
look these terms up

>>743537533
yes

>>743550606
Well?

That is a deep subject, for shallow minds.
Was that glass half full or half empty?

How about your wit?

>>743539157
good plan. while we're at it, let's euthanize handicapped people, incarcerated people, poor people, and people with chronic illnesses

>>743539050
>feel pain
seems like a weak criterion. is it okay to kill people with congenital insensitivity to pain?

>>743550325
>Would you switch tracks? Just curious

Sure I would. I think, haha. The point of employing the Trolley problem and the PET scans is just to show that there are different centers of moral intuition. There's a number crunching center (consequentialist) and a more personal/direct harm center (deontology), and the relevant sets of intuitions underlie moral thinking. What they have in common is that they are both concerned with human welfare--what benefits and harms human beings. The experiments lend weight to the idea that cross-culturally people agree fundamentally about morality and that there is an evolutionary explanation of why. So no one with a conscience disagrees with the proposition that it's wrong to deliberately subject someone to harm or inferior treatment without justification. What they typically disagree about is whether a certain justification obtains or is effective, but that's almost always an empirical matter, and so settleable in principle. So people will say gay marriage is wrong because it ruins families somehow (e.g.); but it doesn't ruin families, so their justification for subjecting gays to inferior treatment falls away. You can generate moral conclusions.

The Wittgensteinian stuff boils down to this: If a nihilist denies that it's wrong to deliberately subject someone to harm or inferior treatment without justification, they're basically ignoring the meaning of the word "[morally] wrong". It's like denying that castling on the first move is chessally wrong. The rules are the rules. Moral rules are the result of our intuitions and the linguistic apparatus used to express them.

The discussion with science guy is about whether there are reasons to be moral (i.e., whether you ought not subject people to unjustified harm). That's a question with a life of its own, but it doesn't change the fact that as far as moral rules are concerned, subjecting people to unjustified harm is wrong.

*breathes out*

>>743540004
>animals do it, so it's okay
animals murder each other and steal shit, too

>>743550841
I was wrong on one count, thank you. Fathers should not have to pay child support at all if it can be shown that having a child was not the intention (contraception was used, unmarried, etc). If the mother carries to term without the father's 'blessing,' that's her problem.

My other point stands because it goes right along with my new train of thought. Pregnancy and childbirth wreak havoc on a woman's body. To force her to endure that when she doesn't want to is a violation of the inalienable right to pursue happiness.

>>743537533
if it cannot survive outside of the womb yet then it isn't even alive in the first place.

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>>743552010
Well since you backed down I will too.

I fully support the Constitution and the bill of rights and am very serious about equality.

So as long as the Father is NOT forced to support under your terms? I agree.

>>743552010
>to force her to endure that when she doesn't want to is a violation of the inalienable right to pursue happiness
that's not what "happiness" means within the context of the DoI. you still have to pay taxes and abide by the law and do all kinds of things that you don't want to do.

>>743551555

Not the guy you're replying to, but it's better to think of the pain thing as a threshold for the fetus having subjective experience it could care about. Before the fetus has any measure of subjective self-interest, it's difficult to say that it's being harmed by abortion since by definition its interests aren't being violated. But once consciousness starts turning on, it abortion's threat to the fetus's interests becomes a bigger concern, morally speaking.

>>743551570
>no one with a conscience disagrees with the proposition that it's wrong to deliberately subject someone to harm or inferior treatment without justification.
>no one with a conscience
By which you mean your same sense of right and wrong. What about people who have different senses? How can you conclude that they're point of view is wrong?
>whether a certain justification obtains or is effective
Not sure what you meant there.

>ignoring the meaning of the word "[morally] wrong"
Well that's just semantics. A silverfish is bug.
>The rules are the rules.
See, but which rules? That (1) is wrong? You're trying to prove your point by stating your point.

PS. I wouldn't pull the lever or push the fat man. Why kill people when someone else is doing it for you?

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>>743539141

you have the same DNA you had when you considered yourself to be a parasite

>>743552453
Well, yes, I rethought that half of it and changed my mind.

>>743552560
Then what does happiness mean?

>>743537533
Best to get to busting on them niggas like the last outlaw.

>>743552575
i disagree. to continue to live is in the objective best interest of the fetus, regardless of whether it's aware of that fact. living is better than dying, edge cases aside (and even in those edge cases, assisted suicide is often illegal and requires the subject to meet certain criteria to be allowed to take his own life -- criteria like rationality or minimum age that a fetus hasn't attained)

>>743552849
Not everywhere. Mutations happen all the time. That's why cancer is a problem.

>>743552903
it was based on a phrase from Locke, "life, liberty, and estate." people would have understood the "pursuit of happiness" to mean pursuit of prosperity or amassing your own property

>>743553174
Okay, I thought that's what you meant, but wanted to be clear. Now think about the situation. In what way does having a child bring you prosperity? Kids are expensive and time consuming.

>>743552687
>What about people who have different senses?

They don't, and there's an evolutionary explanation why. Widespread moral disagreement is an illusion.* People agree on in their moral intuitions, use words in certain ways to express them, and if meaning is use (Wittgenstein), then moral concepts are definable in terms of how the words are used.

*Psychopaths may lack moral intuitions, but saying their opinions matter for the meaning of moral concepts like wrongness is like saying that Terri Schiavo's inability to understand the rules of chess means chess doesn't have rules. Psychopaths don't know how to play the moral language game.

>ignoring the meaning of the word "[morally] wrong"
>Well that's just semantics. A silverfish is bug.

If meaning is determined by use, then nihilists are just ignoring the meanings of the words. A bug nihilist could say nothing is a bug. That doesn't mean they'd be right.

>See, but which rules? That (1) is wrong? You're trying to prove your point by stating your point.

The rules of morality, as determined by the use of moral terms arising from intuitions evolutionarily-neurologically generated.

>>743553498
it's not a guarantee to attain prosperity, it's a right to pursue it. people who have kids are not prevented from that pursuit, even if they may not attain the same level of it as a DINK family.

>>743552996
>to continue to live is in the objective best interest of the fetus, regardless of whether it's aware of that fact

Yep, this is part of the back-and-forth argument. If you say (like I did) that subjective interests matter for whether abortion is wrong, then what about individuals who are in a coma? They may not have subjectivity at the time, but the fact that they might have it again in the future seems to matter for whether killing them would be okay.

>>743553774
isn't that the whole point of a living will? you let your wishes be known before falling into a coma. when people pull the plug on grandma, they do so believing that's what grandma would want. i don't think people getting abortions are assuming the same of the fetus.

>>743553657
>>743553498
put another way: people are put into situations, legally, that don't "bring them properity" like going to jail for committing a crime. it's an inalienable right, so if putting somebody in jail infringed that right, we couldn't legally do it. if you think that's a contradiction, it means you misunderstand the legal doctrines involved.

>>743553900

Sure, I think that's right. But the obvious difference between grandma and a fetus is that grandma has/had wishes; a preconscious fetus doesn't. Ditto anyone in a coma that's potentially temporary: they have latent subjective interests that they just aren't conscious of at the moment. Preconscious fetuses don't even have latent interests.

>>743553577
>They don't
I do. There's lots of people I would love to hurt. I have no justification for it, but I want to do it. Lots of people think things like that. If the person they hated most could be killed with a press of a button and no one would ever know, many would press it.

>rest of the post.
No, no, no. You're method of determining morality is by looking at what a bunch of adults believe is wrong. You say it's because of evolution, which it very well may be, but lions evolved too and they have very different ideas on right and wrong. You're making up the rules to chess and then saying someone who wants to play backgammon is objectively wrong.

Nah. Abortions are completely fine.

People who think abortions should be illegal don't consider how much bullshit their putting pregnant women through.

If abortions were illegal we'd have a lot of orphans and a lot of "not-ready-for-a-child" parents

>>743554437
We already have a lot of those.

Anyways, you sound like a dumb nigger.

>>743537533
I'm no meditician but I think once it has some semblance of a brain and spinal cord, it sort of is. I think its less bad than killing a human that has already been born or is about to be born, and in some cases might still be necessary (for example, child is a product of incestuous rape and will be raised under horrible circumstances, or the pregnancy/birth threatens the mother's life.)

I don't really always buy the "its a woman's body let her choose" rhetoric. By that logic if someone is in my apartment I can kill them just because its my apartment and I am allowed to choose what I do to people in my apartment. I know its not a great comparison but the humanity of the baby should come into consideration, regardless of where its located.

So overall, I don't feel great about abortion, but its sometimes necessary, if a very grave decision to make.

>>743553657
>>743554059
Then you equating the bodily harm of pregnancy and childbirth with a jail sentence. That sounds like a very cruel and unusual to me. There's a difference between being segregated from society for infringing on another's rights and being forced to harm yourself because another person wanted you to carry their child and you refused. What pursuit of estate did you prevent them from having? None.

>>743554156
i think we're using too different definitions of "interest". i mean what's advantageous for the fetus, regardless of sentience or cognition, you seem to mean what the fetus feels or cares about (and a fetus can't care about anything).

i think of this as being similar to the concept of "age of consent" -- we don't let kids consent to having sex or being party to legal contracts because they aren't old enough to make informed decisions in their own best interest. i understand that those legal protections don't apply to a fetus because a fetus isn't legally a person, but i don't understand why the underlying moral framework doesn't still apply.

>>743554591
sameposter here, I'd like to add one thing.

Fathers should have to pay for child support. If he tries to weasel out of it or run away the law should be on him like a fighter jet.

>>743554877
i don't think you're arguing in good faith. i was giving an example of something that, by your logic, would infringe on the pursuit of happiness. i was not equating incarceration to pregnancy.
> what pursuit of estate did you precent them from having?
i'm confused -- isn't that my side of the argument? i'm saying neither pregnant women nor prisoners have lost their right to the pursuit of happiness

>>743554227
>they have very different ideas on right and wrong.

So Lions may have different "moral rules". That doesn't matter for the case of humans. Lion rules are lion rules; and human rules are human rules. (anyway, lions don't have language and don't have concepts in the same way we do; you can't extrapolate the meanings of words in natural human language from empirical facts divorced from human language games. In that sense morality is an entirely human enterprise, though underlying it may be evolutionary facts similar to those that apply to other species).

> You're making up the rules to chess and then saying someone who wants to play backgammon is objectively wrong.

No; I'm saying if someone is playing backgammon and not chess then they're not playing chess. If someone wants to throw the chess pieces all over the board, they can do that; but if they're trying to play chess (i.e., trying to do what's chessally right), throwing the pieces over the board would be against the rules. Brings me to...

>There's lots of people I would love to hurt. I have no justification for it, but I want to do it. Lots of people think things like that. If the person they hated most could be killed with a press of a button and no one would ever know, many would press it.

Okay. But as far as I've argued here, I'm being agnostic about whether or not you *should* kill people that way. *All* I'm saying is that if you killed people without justification, you'd be violating the rules of morality. But so what? Have at it. Maybe you're a psychopath. Maybe you're just not motivated to be moral if you could get away with killing people. The question of "Why be moral?" is really hard to answer. Whole books have been written on it. But that doesn't mean moral concepts are empty; it just means morality doesn't imply oughts.

>>743554591
>I don't really always buy the "its a woman's body let her choose" rhetoric. By that logic if someone is in my apartment I can kill them just because its my apartment and I am allowed to choose what I do to people in my apartment. I know its not a great comparison but the humanity of the baby should come into consideration, regardless of where its located.

What about >>743539967

>>743554591
>>743554949
>meditician
>Fathers should have to pay for child support. If he tries to weasel out of it or run away the law should be on him like a fighter jet.
If they are backing out of an agreement to do so, then yes, but it's attitudes like this that allow women to get away with child support fraud all the time.

>>743555140
>i was not equating incarceration to pregnancy.
Yeah... you kinda are. It's something you imply the government should force you to do if the father says so.
>i'm confused
What I meant is that by aborting, the mother is not depriving the FATHER of the pursuit.

>>743555277
I more or less agree but I do think if negligence (eg. knowingly unprotected sex on part of the female) creates a life, she has some responsibility to it . Take the example you gave but make it so you injured the person that needed help in the first place. You would be a bad person to not assist.

If its rape or something else beyond the woman's control, its another story.

>>743537533
Sometimes murder is necessary. To save another life.

>>743555494
oh, i didn't mean to bring the father into the picture, i'm just talking about whether banning abortion infringes the right to pursue happiness. legally, it doesn't, which is why it doesn't come up in the supreme court cases about abortion. those cases are built on other legal precidents

>>743537533

>sees fetus in someone
>"its JUST a bundle of cells, guys"
>sees single celled organism on mars
>"OH MY GAWD THERES LIFE ON MARS HOLY SHIT ITS LIFE GUYS!!! LIFE!!!"

>>743555626
>Take the example you gave but make it so you injured the person that needed help in the first place. You would be a bad person to not assist.

Nice one.

>>743537533
It's a lot like locking your keys in your car