How can you justify not being a vegetarian? Not bait

>>741394075
How can you justify not not being a vegetarian? Not not bait

I am vegetarian faggot

meat tastes good, and animals lives have no value

>>741395629
Humans are animals too lol

I like meat and have no problem with killing the animal to get it.

ITT: People okay with destroying the environment.

>>741395812
Since you're so worried about the environment I assume you don't drive, use electricity, take hot showers, or have heat in your house.

>>741396184
this person pains me. I assume american?
14-18% of the greenhouse gas emissions are from animal agriculture, and 18% from deforestation, which is almost always used for more livestock farming.
Automobiles are 9.9% of the greenhouse emissions, and electricity/hot water/heating in a house is dependent on where you live, but still will be such a tiny contribution compared to meat.

>>741396603
oh, I forgot source, Skeptical Science, nov 2015, https://www.skepticalscience.com/how-much-meat-contribute-to-gw.html

>>741394075
Being healthy

>>741395721
So? Human lives have no objective value.

>>741395629
apparently plant lives have no value either to vegatarian's funny how life only matters to them if you can hug it

>>741395812
farmland where all those foods vegetarians eat come from, also destroy the environment.

>>741394075
Meat tastes good. So long as we have the ability to raise animals, slaughter them, and eat them in a sanitary manner, we should eat them. The reason we are able to have the intelligence and capability to do this, where other animals don't, is because of eating meat. Meat provided us the energy to survive while developing as a species. Seems fine to me.

>>741394075
I'm open to destroying the earth.
Not bait.

>>741394075
It's unhealthy

>>741397227
red meat is like the worst thing you can eat ya daft cunt

>>741394075
Vegetaria are what food eats

>>741396893
Now now, you deal in absolutes. How do you know that human lives have no objective value?

I don't. I like to think they don't have any objective value either, but I don't know that for certain.

>>741397297
>guise I'm so healthy being a vegetarian, that's why I need supplements

>>741396603
If we're talking about America over half their energy comes from fossil fuels, second only to China.

>>741394075
Only herbivores can produce aminoacids like methionine, lysine, leucine, tryptophan or valine etc. Omnivores and carnivores need to eat it by eating herbivores.

>>741394075
Meat is tasty and I don't give a fuck about animals. Easy.

>>741396893
Human lives have no objective value? IMO objectivity doesn't exist. Animals don't discuss what's 'objectively' right, they just do. Who really has value, the thing that can reason and think, who decides "I don't want that to go extinct", or the thing that eats and lives and does nothing else? Without us there is not even any discussion into objectivity or subjectivity, so we must have value if you are able to think that.

because im not a dumbass and like to make my life happy

>>741397297
Cyanide

>>741397297
So? There's chicken, fish, reptile, and insect.

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>And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Muthafucka

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>>741394075
This exists

>>741397626
Is insect even considered meat?

>>741397425
never had supplements, raised vegetarian, 6"3 and healthy. sounds like a meaty manlet is scared.
Never get ill, the only health issues I'd ever had was acne when younger, but I just stopped eating chips and it went away

ITT:
fatties butthurt over what other people eat

>>741397557
Why must we have value if we are able to have consciousness? Wouldn't consciousness putting value on consciousness be a subjective bias for conscious things?

And, many animals possess the ability to see things "objectively".

>>741396184
My home is actually powered via wind power, fun fact. I take the bus everywhere or walk. Our water is powered by our electricity, which is green.

Fun fact: my drinking water comes from a spring.

Feelsgoodbeinggreen.

>>741397790
Yes. Have you never eaten a lobster?

>>741397790
I think its an amino acid

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>>741394075
Bait store up in here

>>741397977
lobster is not an insect but an arthropod fag

Where do you veggie fags get your protein?

>>741394075
Because i live in a free country and meat is delicious. And as healthy as anything else in moderation.

>>741398182
its a water insect retard

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>>741398211
nigger jizz

>>741397977
Crustaceans aren't technically insects even if they are arthropods.

>>741398211
Plants dumbass. They make protein.

>>741398508
Kek
7/10 b8

OP. Just went vegetarian on friday. Any advice on basic, easy, cheap foods to eat to ease me into it?

>>741397938
Consciousness is value, because only those who can reason can reason what is valuable and what is not valuable. Who else would be able to put value on consciousness other than the conscious, the only people who are even able to function on that level? The pigs that roll in their own shit? Or the loads of animals going extinct?

>>741398182
>Arthropods form the phylum Arthropoda, which includes insects, arachnids, myriapods, and crustaceans
>insects
>and crustaceans
So by virtue of insects and crustaceans being similar enough, including being either ectognatha or entognatha, you know what it's like to eat an insect if you've eaten a lobster.

Because they're essentially the same fucking thing, faggot.

>>741394075
I was. Not militantly, I did eat sushi. At some point about a year ago I was getting a little soft around the middle. I got a personal trainer, a doctor, and a nutritionist. They first thing ALL THREE said was to quit eating soy and dairy. My personal trainer had me eating more meat in a day than I would in a month. My waist is smaller, my muscles are a lot bigger, I sleep better, and I have been able to start running again. I honestly love tofu and miss the blank canvas aspect of it because I love to cook but I will never touch that shit again as long as I live.

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>>741398252
99% bait, but its not an insect but a crustacean, a whole diffrent division.

>>741398624
I'll dumb this down for you as much as possible. Plants create glucose via photosynthesis. Glucose is then converted to amino acids.

>>741398624
literally all plants have protein

>>741398732
>because only those who can reason can reason what is valuable and what is not valuable
Can they? Why?

>Who else would be able to put value on consciousness other than the conscious
Circular logic?

>>741398854
so do they also have phospo lipids?

>>741394075
Veggie ftw yo.

why are vegans so fucking annoying

>>741398752
nevermind, i thought crustaceans were actually called arthropods (im not that good at english names in biology). They are in fact simillar, but if you've eaten bot lobster and for example a locust you would definetly spot a diffrence. And phylum is used for fungi and plants. Have a nice day and come at me boi

Our bodies are designed for it. /thread

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>>741399803
maybe because my mom is smarter than me

the ignorance in post like this make me feel so warm inside. the level of ignorance is astonishing.

im not a vegan but ask your local meat processing plant for a tour. then come back and say you love meat. oh wait.

no way in fucking hell they'll let you step a foot inside. wonder why??

oh and blend up some steak and bacon, tell me how delicious meat is again?

>>741398873
"Only those who can reason can reason"
Why? Why can't things that can't reason reason?
What a fucking retard.

>>741394075
Because life cannot exist without death. This includes your's. I do think we need to treat animals meant for food better, but to end all meat eating preposterous.

>>741399912
>They are in fact similar
>but
They're similar by your own admission, not identical. Of course there must exist a difference; a cockroach is almost certainly never the size of a lobster, nor is it segmented like a lobster. But if it were that big, you could easily crack it open and eat its insides.

>fungi and plants
>phylum
>what is animalia phylum

>>741400127
'cuz it probably smells bad in there.

>>741400317
You really took some words out of that. I asked you why only those who can reason, can reason what is valuable and what is not valuable. Not why they can reason with reason.

Even that, though, is circular. See, I'm asking you why you suddenly are no longer selling the idea that the value of conscious things isn't just natural and immediately knowable, as opposed to needing to justify this value by insisting that conscious beings are valuable because they are conscious.

That's a subjective value, because it requires the quality of consciousness to determine the value of consciousness. You see how that's circular? Shouldn't consciousness be valuable even when there's no consciousness around to depict the value of consciousness, naturally, neutrally, without bias or relativity?

It's easy. Food is food. The environmental impact of a majority vegetarian diet will lead to more dead zones in the ocean, due to the necessity of chemical fertilisers (no more farm animals pooping everywhere). Most meat substitutes are common allergens. The amount of space required for animal feed is dwarfed by a vegetarian society's need for food diversity to maintain health. Most farm animals would perish in the wild (genocide), or will kill off other species via competetion.

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>>741400461
Oh yeah, sorry, thought it meant is pylum not equivalent to pylum, guess i finally need some sleep

>>741400957
>will kill off other species via competetion
This already has begun to happen in Kenya with sheep.

>>741401238
Yep. All because their shepards cannot control their damn flocks. Imagine all the cows, chickens, pigs, fish etc in the us being released into the wild. That's not to mention all the pets raised that peta would have released. It would be chaos and genocide. Vegans shouldn't even eat naturally fertilized crops from farm animals in captivity. We also lose out on all those useful nitrates used in explosives and other chemical processes. We can wax philosophical all day over the ramifications of eating "sentient creatures", but when you get down to it, trying to convince society to stop eating animals can only do more harm than good, considering the massive investment required in time, funds, space, and logistics, all of which outweigh the current model.

You cannot just reuse animal feed farms for human feed. If you need that explained, look up crop rotation, leaching, fda requirements, chemical fertilizer costs, space required based on what crop is grown, pest control of farmland (kills animals just as dead as farming them and they go to waste)... basically, vegans don't know shit about large scale farming and live in a Dream world with no common food allergies, no invasive species, no maladapted species, plants that grow in any type of soil and are space efficient, no such thing as soil leaching, and no dead zones caused by runoff of CHEMICAL fertilizers (meaning no fish or sea-mammals are suffocated/starved by overgrowth of algae caused directly by vegan farming). It's fun.

Why can a lion eat meat and just can't

I like to eat meat? It tastes good and I am aware that not eating it doesnt magically bring it back alive, but rather wastes its life because that animal gave its life for my meal and me not eating it would be more disrespectful than it is to eat it.

>>741400753
The value of consciousness is irrelevant if there is no consciousness to perceive it. The value in consciousness doesn't exist if consciousness doesn't exist. If we, as those with the ability to reason, were unable to reason, there would be nobody and nothing to have this conversation. The mere fact that we, as conscious beings, are conscious and reasoning, proves our value. The fact that we, with the ability to reason and the incredible gift of the opposable thumb, have conquered the world, proves that we have value.

>>741395629
Neither does yours, so get in the oven.

>>741403681
>The value of consciousness is irrelevant if there is no consciousness to perceive it
Why?
>The value in consciousness doesn't exist if consciousness doesn't exist
Why?

>If we, as those with the ability to reason, were unable to reason, there would be nobody and nothing to have this conversation
Well, according to the definitions of subjectivity and objectivity, the value of consciousness is subjective and not objective.
>The mere fact that we, as conscious beings, are conscious and reasoning, proves our value
Proves our value, subjectively.

>>741394075
The only argument for vegetarianism is an emotional one-- I.E. it isn't an argument at all. Vegetarianism isn't better for your health than having a balanced diet that contains meat. Vegetarianism also doesn't account for the fact that plants also have a system similar to animals that causes chemical distress when they're hurt/plucked/etc.

Vegetarianism is additionally, in my mind, horribly arrogant as a philosophy/lifestyle, and I don't mean how vegans are arrogant, moreso in a way that vegetarians seem to think that humans are any better than the animals they eat-- If vegetarians really cared about no animals suffering, they'd put tigers on supplements and kale, or whatever.

TL;DR, Vegetarianism is illogical and overall just fucking stupid

>>741394075
Yes, Humans have eaten meat for 1000's of years. It is only within the past Century that goofballs want to just eat vegetables for some fucking reason. You don't like factory farming, ok I don't either but it's not cruel to hunt and raise your own meat for a food source.

>>741403752
>Why?
>Why?
Because there is nobody there to perceive it. If there were no pigs anywhere on earth, and there never were, and pigs never existed, there would be nobody to go, "Man, I wish there were pigs." If there is no consciousness, there's nobody to go "What's the value of consciousness?"
>Well, according to the definitions of subjectivity and objectivity, the value of consciousness is subjective and not objective.
There is nobody to reason whether something is objective or subjective if there is nobody there to reason in the first place, so subjectivity and objectivity wouldn't matter if there was nobody to allow them to matter?
>Proves our value, subjectively
Proves our value, subjectively. My point is that there is no such thing as the objective, and that everything is subjective, by the rules that we, as the only conscious species, have put forth.

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>>741394075
my biggest problem with veganism is the ethics behind the practice and associated philosophy. Vegans believe that it's immoral to consume animal products, as the animals suffer from the creation of said products. yet it's perfectly acceptable to consume plant or fungal products (mushrooms are not vegetables).

Arabidopsis thaliana, or thale cress, is a plant model organism; we know a lot about it. One of the many things we've discovered about it, is it's ability to hear, and react. when researchers played sound recordings of caterpillars eating to thale cress, the plants responded by releasing toxins to their leaves in an attempt to protect themselves.

Based on this, it's easy to conclude that plants, like animals, do not want to be eaten or damaged, and in fact they react to protect themselves when threatened. So how is it better to eat plants that don't want to be eaten than it is to eat animals that don't want to be eaten? the decision that consuming plants is morally better than eating animals only serves to say that plant lives are less valuable than animal lives are.

Who the fuck gave you uppity ass bitches the authority to make that decision?

>>741394075
fuck vegetarianism, veganism or gtfo

vegans are superior in all categories

vegetarians are pretty much meattards

>>741394075
Animals are delicious and eating plants removes the entities that absorb carbon dioxide (which I am told is bad because a trace gas that's been on the planet from it's creation is the sole reason it can warm because a bunch of millionaire/billionaire liberals own a carbon stock exchange that will transfer an even larger amount of the world's wealth to them simply because corporations don't want to pay the current tax rate)

But it's mostly because animals taste good and I don't believe in bunk health science solely paid for by vegetarian/vegan groups.

>>741405177
An AI can hear, and react

intelligence is not the basis for what makes a creature of moral value.

Plants do not have a nervous system, and they are not sentient, therefore they aren't considered when it comes to the philosophy of veganism and actions of vegans.

Plant sentience is the argument of the most naive, starter pack anti-vegan.

>>741394075
Why pose this as a negative proposition? This is one of the first things you learn not to do in formal logic training...

>>741396603
this is based not on mass, but on global warming potential (GWP). The reason the number from agriculture is so high is because it primarily produces methane (which has a GWP of 30 compared to CO2's 1 GWP); however it does not take into account the fact that methane degrades into CO2 and water in the upper atmosphere. After 10 years the GWP of the methane released is about 1.2. So the long term scale it is closer to 3-5%. Also most deforestation is not for new agriculture, but a result of urbanization of previous agricultural land

>>741394075
i enjoy eating whatever and not being a slave to diarrhea

>>741405038
>there would be nobody to go, "Man, I wish there were pigs."
Alright, but, I don't know if you understand what I'm saying, or what you were saying. Maybe you unintentionally said something you didn't mean. At this point, I'm left to doubt if you really meant to say that human beings have objective value. Because you keep subjectively justifying the value of the quality of being conscious, or the phenomenon thereof. You need consciousness to validate consciousness or anything that stems from the agency or activity of consciousness, right? Yes? No? Maybe? You seem to say yes in this reply, so I'm assuming the answer is yes.

But
>there is nobody there to perceive it
doesn't really explain why it needs to be perceived by something that is conscious to have value. Saying "because" doesn't explain why.

>There is nobody to reason whether something is objective or subjective if there is nobody there to reason in the first place
But there are people here and now who have defined the words you are trying to use, so this is not a hypothetical insofar as there are people who appear to be conscious and use words like subjectivity and objectivity, where at the very least they cannot decide whether or not consciousness has objective or subjective value, but at least know what things those words mean to convey. It is a non-sequitur to mention
>so subjectivity and objectivity wouldn't matter if there was nobody to allow them to matter

>My point is that there is no such thing as the objective
But you give objectively true qualities of being here
>>741397557
>Animals don't discuss what's 'objectively' right, they just do
>they just do
>Who really has value
>the thing that eats and lives and does nothing else

I don't give a fuck about the animals. I'm an animal, and I eat other animals to survive. It's just the fucking way nature works.

>>741394075
I like eating meat, its my life fuck you

Meh, any modern person living in a modern society is just another cog in the same machine. The machine happens to have been raised from the ground up by meat eaters. Built by, maintained, progressed by, owned by, ect meat eaters. Therefore anyone who plays their part in the machine, in this case everyone in it, the cogs, if you will, contributes to the machine, You work for it, work in it, you pay into it, pay for it. There's no way around it, you are part of the problem you perceive if you are contributing to the society that has the problem you perceive.

Alas, things such as morality, justification, right and wrong (in this context) are subjective and ever changing. The only measure of morality that matters to a society as whole, is what the majority of that society agrees upon. So it's subjectively morally justified because the majority of people within the society thinks it is at any given time. That also happens to be the vat majority of humans.

You can philosophize about it all you want bu the reality is people meat and will continue to eat it till it's no longer available.

Personally, I haven't had it since I was 5 years of age, 4 decades ago.

If you truly want to stick to your values Vegans, get out of the machine and lead by example. Not that many people will follow. Don't even pretend like it's not a choice, it very much is.

>>741406613
I don't give a fuck about women. I'm an animal, and I rape other animals to survive. It's just the fucking way nature works.

Im not gay

>>741406690
I like raping women, its my life fuck you.
I like murdering people, its my life fuck you.
I like paying for the slaughter of animals, its my life fuck you.

Putting "its my life fuck you" after immoral actions does NOT justify it at all.


and I'm not OP, nor am i vegetarian, im vegan. fuck OP

>>741399949
>>741399949
Human physiology is very close to that of other herbivores. Atleast do some research before you post.

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>>741405766
you do know that a lot of animals have little or no nervous system right? I mean most plants are more capable of reacting to their environment than some bivalves

>>741405766
you didn't answer the question though

>>741406962
What if you're amoral?

>>741407076
what the FUCK are you talking about

Pigs, Cows, Sheep, Lambs, Ducks, Fish, Bees, Chickens, the list goes on and on for farmed animals, all have nervous systems, they feel pain just like we do.

Plants DO NOT.

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>>741407076
Most animals have a pretty intricate nervous system, you fucking retard.

>>741396954
Stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. Seriously, have a look at what you've just said. Think about it and bask in the retardation. You value a plant's life the same as your dog's life. Just please, think about how retarded your position is. Please, realize the stupidity, because it really is stupid. Really, really stupid. Understand the mental capacity of someone who believes the position that you hold and see how that mental capacity is strikingly low. So low, in fact, that you can barely see it. Realize that YOU held this position, and feel regret. Feel stupid, for you are, and feel ashamed, for you should be. You, Anon, are a real retard. A REAL one.

>>741394075
Because meat is tasty, and I only care about myself.

>>741394075

I've actually been thinking of taking up veganism, but essentially not having a firm grasp of vegan cooking and knowing how to get my plates up to snuff nutritional in terms of protein and vitamin B12, in addition to specific research I need to do on vegan food amino acid profiles, are what are holding me back.

>>741407370
Moral nihilism

If you're a real moral nihilist, you would have to agree that you see nothing wrong or right about me killing/torturing close family members, strangers, animals, etc.

You might have one of the various disabilities which entails the symptom of lacking a moral compass/empathy.

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>>741407679

>>741407076
sponges have no nervous system. cnidarians can really only detect gravity. bivalve molluscs re sessile (they move their parts) but are not motile and they do not react to stimuli

>>741406503
Yo, I'm about to pass out, got work in the morning, but the very first thing I said was "There is no such thing as objectivity". I don't think humans have objective value because objective value doesn't exist. I think that, if consciousness doesn't exist, it can't have value because it doesn't exist. Other animals don't have the capability to determine whether things have subjective value or don't have subjective value in the same way that humans do, because they don't have consciousness. Because we have the ability to discuss, I believe we have an inherent value that is lacking everywhere else on earth. But this isn't an objective value, this is a subjective value. Where I say that, as the only living things who can reason and think, we have value, someone else would say we're the only species to massively destroy ecosystems and make thriving animals go extinct, and so we don't have value. When I asked, " Who really has value, the thing that can reason and think... or the thing that eats and lives and nothing else?", I meant the thing that can reason and think, not the thing that sits around and does naught.

>>741407421
you've clearly never taken a zoology class have you

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>>741394075
Because am not a pussy faggot

>>741407420
actually, this is still a heavily debated topic, especially when it comes to invertebrates. You might want to read up before making such sweeping declarations. each of the following wikipedia articles has 50+ scholarly sources; it's a decent place to start

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_animals
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_invertebrates
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_cephalopods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_crustaceans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_fish
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_amphibians

>>741408213
>I don't think humans have objective value because objective value doesn't exist
>Other animals don't have the capability
>because they don't have consciousness
>I meant the thing that can reason and think, not the thing that sits around and does naught

I understand, but, damn it, anon. This is like me saying, "water isn't wet because water doesn't get wet". Why doesn't water get wet?

I don't know, I never explained why. It just doesn't.

>Where I say that, as the only living things who can reason and think, we have value
>someone else would say we're the only species to massively destroy ecosystems and make thriving animals go extinct, and so we don't have value
I don't know if you can reasonably compare the two. One is saying that you have value because you can reason and think in a way and are valuable when alive, and the other is saying that causing death and destruction precludes value. There's no comparison, just two statements regarding the quality of having value in general, no argument between either statement about consciousness having value or causing massive change and extinction precluding value.

>I meant the thing that can reason and think, not the thing that sits around and does naught
I just never wondered which one you meant had value, only, why we had to have value if we were able to have consciousness, where it seemed like you were going for objective truths and swapped to subjective. Which you answered, I guess.

>>741394075
I am a top-of-the-food-chain predator. Predation is -natural- to my species, as it is to many other primates.

Why would you restrict yourself to prey food?

>>741408956
Ive killed so many animals and stood over their body as they passed. Many times I used my ka-bar knife to end the apparent suffering. But I was hungry anon.

>>741408956
so reaction do damage doesn't necessarily equate pain?

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>>741394075

Because I enjoy killing.

>>741394075
I am allergic to a lot of vegetables. I am also allergic to dairy and tree nuts.

So basically half my diet is meat. Otherwise I would honestly become vegetarian or vegan... but I would have to eat an INSANE amount of non-animal product to survive.

I love animals though, wish I didn't eat them.

>>741397798
>>but i just stopped eating chips

>>741398637
Dont just eat pasta.

>>741394075
Because last time I tried, my body felt fucking weak, I slept for longer than usual, I didn't want to do anything. Yes, I tried substitutes like tofu, eggplant and other shit like that. Didn't really help me.

>>741398814
For how long were you veggy?

>>741394075
It's bait.