I'll put it this way: Religion is great. God giving me purpose is awesome, and I'm happy. But, the practitioners of religion almost always suck. It's kind of like how humans just...well when they're grouped together humans find a way to ruin anything.
>>739214372 Yeah. YOU put in the effort to find it, but that doesn't mean you're not designed intelligently. There's always a journey, and on a private, spiritual level, having a connection to the creator of the universe is pretty cool.
all 4000+ religions are man made, written by humans just like you and me. They are not the word of "God".
The 2 major ones, Christianity and islam can eaisily be disproved by evolution. Adam and eve did not exist, it would be impossible and we have evolved from bacteria with evolution, thats a fact.
Now its time to seperate god from man made fiction. Did something cause the big bang to happen? is there a reason why it happened? Nobody knows. The concept of a god being the thing that caused the big bang to happen is still possible but it would be nothing like the god you are imagining.
When you die, your brain shuts down, you have no conciousness. You wont know your dead, just like you dont know your sleeping (unless your dreaming). You wont go to heaven or hell, they are man made fiction. You will be in nothingness just like before you were born. We have to cherish the tiny amount of time we have in this beautiful world because once we die, thats it.
>>739215494 I personally believe its not "something from nothing" as we know it. The big bang was the start of everything, time, space, every law of physic which then dictates something cannot come from nothing.
The start of the big bang happened when there was nothing, no laws, no time, just nothingness so it would make sense how it came about from nothing, after all. Somewhere, sometime, something HAD to of come from nothing
>>739215919 imo better way to put it: if time only exists if the universe exists, there would be no before the universe. To speak of the universe "coming from" would be nonsensical. At no point would the universe not exist, even though there's a beginning.
>>739216690 I can talk you through what i said and the evidence to back it up.
When you die, you brain dies, its dead. You would have to be completely stupid to protest that. Consciousness only exists in your brain. If you have no brain, you have no consciousness.
Heaven and hell are man made fiction until proven otherwise. Ive just made up a place called fairyland which we all go to when we die. As far as youre or anyone is concerned, the concept of fairyland is been made by man even though it cant be disproven.
We will be in nothingness just like before we was born. We only exist for as long as we are alive. Unless you belive in some sort of spirit or soul which has absolutly no evidence whatsoever so it shall be treated as man made finction until proven otherwise. I dont think your objecting to the last bit, the universe and the world is the most beautiful thing i can ever imagine and its an absolute privilege that by the sheer accident i was born into the only species of living creature with enough intelligence to appreciate it.
We know enough about brain damage and how it affects consciousness to know that it is tied directly to physical parts of your brain. We even know which parts of the brain to damage and how it can specifically affect conscious thought. Slicing one part of the brain instantly affects your speech, or your ability to recognize faces, etc. It's not magic.
>>739217302 You do not have a soul. You are nothing but a meat computer floating in fluid, encased in calcium. When the body that keeps you running finally shuts down, you will turn off and that is that.
>>739217302 >proof Subjects with split brains, brain damage, etc. changing radically in personality, even developing additional personalities (extra fun when the added personality is an atheist when the first one was theist). So-called near death experiences can also be induced through purely physical means when the subject is in no actual danger of death.
>damage one part of the brain = damage the mind >damage another brain part = another part of the mind is damaged and destroyed >damage the entire brain = your mind floats up to heaven and you see your dead grandma
I'm dealing with a dark view of the world right now. Glad you see it "better". Yep. Enough of the magical, mysticism, delusional shit. It's not some fedora, pro-atheist preach. We should all accept the truth and facts. As hard as that is to know.
>>739217385 But where is your proof that consciousness exists only in the brain? It could be something else that uses the brain as a vessel for all we know, like a program running on a computer
>>739217553 How does brain damage affect consciousness at all? And even so how does this prove consciousness is created by the brain
>>739217656 That's a lot of conjecture with little proof
>>739217755 None of those prove that consciousness is a product of the brain rather than the brain just serving as a casing
>>739217824 That argument doesn't make any sense Either the person is self aware or he isn't, there isn't an inbetween state. Consciousness is not brain capacity.
I'm not going to bother replying to anything else since so far I've only had reddit tier responses of people who already have little understanding of science and even less ability of critical thinking. If you actually formulate a proper response that takes into consideration the fact that consciousness is something that can not be proven by science since it is entirely subjective (ie dependant on the individual and impossible to observe by anyone but him) then I will give a (You)
>>739218154 >None of those prove that consciousness is a product of the brain rather than the brain just serving as a casing Define consciousness. If "you" can, to the observer, become an entirely different person or even multiple people through purely physical means, in what sense is a non-brain based consciousness meaningful?
>>739218154 >But where is your proof that consciousness exists only in the brain?
Based on all available scientific evidence, fMRI data, all we know about brain damage and comas and everything else, that is clearly the logical conclusion. You need to provide very compelling evidence that consciousness exists without a brain, because that argument goes against all known evidence. You have so far provided zero evidence to the contrary. Literally zero.
If a belief in "something" that is not provable by science, keeps some of the masses from doing bad shit, gives them hope to get through bad times. Acts as a placebo effect in healing just from the deluded hope. Is it really a bad thing?
>>739219152 First world muslums don't do that shit. Think it might be the conditions of the government that is supposed to keep them in check. Like Gangs in LA or any where else in the world. Take away the balance and wolves come out to play.
In terms of keeping the masses from doing bad shit, your either faking ignorance or just plain stupid to think religion has done more good than bad
Gives them hope to get through bad times. This develops as a dangerous placebo. God saved me from that depressing time, god must be real, im going to let religion dictate my life and impose it on other including vunrable children. This may seem far fetched but it happens to nearly all children with religious parents.
Acts as a placebo effect in healing the deluded. Yes scamming ill vunrable people is a terrible thing. If half of them spent their time educating themselves on science and biology rather than hoping someone will heal them with a click of the fingers, maybe they wouldnt get half as ill and go see an actual doctor
Yes they do. In fact, when you correct for education, support for terrorism actually goes up for muslims. The majority of the 911 terrorists went to college, moreso than the general US population (only 52% of Americans are college-educated).
Absolutely true. But what if "something" occurred that absolutely eliminated all proof of "God". What would happen to the common man? All those who put all their time, life into believing, just to be proven it was nothing. Sure, the intelligent, logical individuals would stay focused, and go about their lives. You know there there would. Be mass chaos on a global scale.
I don't think such proof can possibly exist. The truly religious can simply claim any proof was created by the devil to fool us or some other nonsense.
Mass chaos? On a smaller scale, think about humanity's perceived role in the universe. At one time, people believed earth was literally the center of the universe. Now we accept we are on a shitty, small rock in an unimportant galaxy, nothing special about it. With time, people can accept the truth without "mass chaos"
Well I said I wasn't going to feed (You)s but here I go
>>739218309 The consciousness of the individual (ie his ability to think I am me) doesn't disappear if he's still able to think Once he loses the ability to think obviously it goes away, but we can't know if this is because his consciousness disappears or if its means of expressing itself disappears and it does not
>>739218322 Consciousness is the ability to be self aware, ths style of Descartes cogito Perhaps if a person changes you could say his consciousness is a different one, but it entirely depends on his own ability of being self aware, which an observer can not know
>>739218487 My claim is that we have no proof for nor against a brain that is responsible for consciousness, however I believe it is something that can't be reduced to the absolute materiality of connections in the brain, else we'd just as well be walking robots
>>739218755 None of the things you cited actually treat the question of consciousness, rather they treat the ability of the brain to process information And why would I need to provide evidence when I'm simply contesting arguments, and not actually trying to say that one answer is the correct one?
>>739218899 I provide one potential example that you misunderstand and I'm "not worth debating" Smells like reddit
There are many. And not taking about devoutly religious, who always have that, subconscious God think in their minds. Scary to think. But this is what keeps John Q Public from doing some bad, illegal shit. "Damn, my daughter looks so hot. Nope, God." "Fuck, I can't deal with this fucking ass boss and job anymore, that's it, I'm going to..." Nope. God.
>>739213025 Then there is this >Submit to your husbands': Women told to endure domestic violence in the name of God >Research shows that the men most likely to abuse their wives are evangelical Christians who attend church sporadically I have the full article if you want, it's from Australia
>>739220795 If consciousness only comes from the brain, and the brain is simply a series of connections of 1s and 0s, why can consciousness not be a computer program? You're contradicting your own argument
>>739220387 >Consciousness is the ability to be self aware So consciousness is just an attribute of an individual? >which an observer can not know This starts getting "out there" but I'm not convinced that the "self" can really know either. Perhaps instead of "I think, therefore I am" it should be "Something thinks, therefore something is". This gets into old philosophical issues like the ship of theseus. >else we'd just as well be walking robots Not who you were responding to here, but what if that's effectively what we are? What if we are essentially biological robots, just made of flesh and blood instead of metal and silicon?
This was originally gonna be a reply in a religious thread, but its a little off topic so its now it's own thing. There can't be "something from nothing." Its either "something" has always existed or never existed. We're missing something here. We're missing a lot of things. There are probably hundreds of senses we could have to amplify our existence in this universe and we just can't comprehend them. Heres a question, why does life try so hard to continue existing? What compels us to survive? Its safe to assume fearing death is some genetic trait that most life shares, perhaps, and life's attempt at existing owes itself to that random, biological hiccup. But some lifeforms aren't capable of comprehending the idea of death, so perhaps its the insatiable urge to reproduce, grow, and multiply, which is also presumably genetic. I wish I could see the bigger picture.
>>739221150 reading comprehension problems, huh? everything was greentexted correctly and saying "I want to believe this because the other options I don't like" is the least "critical thinking" possible
GOD IS REAL!!!! READ A BIBLE! GOD IS REAL!!!! READ A BIBLE! GOD IS REAL!!!! READ A BIBLE! GOD IS REAL!!!! READ A BIBLE! GOD IS REAL!!!! READ A BIBLE! GOD IS REAL!!!! READ A BIBLE! GOD IS REAL!!!! READ A BIBLE!
>>739221970 >Its either "something" has always existed or never existed. Since something observably exists, it always existed. >Heres a question, why does life try so hard to continue existing? Because life that didn't try hard to continue existing went extinct. Evolution selects for organisms that try to survive.
>>739221282 I know for a fact I'm more than just a material object since I'm aware that I exist, meaning I must also be a thought process (or consciousness) unique to itself >instead of "I think, therefore I am" it should be "Something thinks, therefore something is" This is wrong since I can only be certain of my own self awareness, and can be certain of no one else's. This goes for others who are self aware, it only works for yourself since it's your own thought process
I don't really know how you define robot so I'm not going to address the last question
>>739221735 That's an interesting question but if they're unable to even realise they exist then arguably they do not have a conscious
Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. Read the Bible. Believe, be baptized, repent. Turn from your sins. God will reward you beyond your wildest dreams. And that's merely a preview of what God promises believers will experience after life.
You know that emptiness you feel anon? When, no matter what you do in life, it's never enough?
Everything of this world is a carrot on a stick and a trap. You can only find fulfillment in God and you can only get to God via Jesus Christ.
I have a line via prayer to the creator of the universe and all things. It's quite a privilege.
>>739222251 >I know for a fact I'm more than just a material object since I'm aware that I exist "You" think that you exist, but in what way does that mean that you are more than just a material object? Is a computer running software more than a material object? Can you say that the software is unique to itself if it is entirely dependent on the hardware? >This is wrong since I can only be certain of my own self awareness, and can be certain of no one else's. Can you be certain of your own self awareness though? Do "you" even exist?
Long story short: God is not a person. Not a spirit. God is the collective consciousness. God is the glue between me and you. God is found in quantum physics and how it relates to consciousness, the connection between the consciousness of all living beings. Your brain controls much more of this simulation we call the universe than you might realize.
Also, Jesus wasn't the Son of God. He was a magician (read: monk) that realized how much the brain could control, and he used his abilities to liberate people. By telling people to pray, he allowed them to tap into the collective consciousness and change the outcomes of certain events with faith (observation shapes reality as much as vice versa). Pretty cool dude.
>>739213025 It really depends on how you define God... There are plenty of people that believe in a creator, and that creator put a piece of himself (dna) into all of us. A good example of this (and a terrible movie) is Prometheus.
It is also entirely possible that he left some ancient rules for us to follow, or to guide civilization. It may even be possible that he is still watching us today. Given how long it takes to travel space, they may just be watching and are incapable of interacting. We may even be descendants of a fallen empire.
If you believe in super powers, resurrection, and the idea of a divine reward in the afterlife, then YOU are the absolute worst, but you know what.... Keep doing it. Because if believing you will be happy when you die will make you be a less shitty person, then please do that.
>>739222340 >my one book written by ancient ricefarming sandniggers is the only one with truth in it >all who don't believe in it go to hell, even those that die before ever getting exposed to it >99% of people go to hell But God is a pretty good guy!
>>739223333 yeah, that was facetious, as if to say "in case you doubt that DMT is viable as a means to communicate with the beyond, remember it's probably the same chemical that activates near-death-experiences / "the light at the end of the tunnel" experiences"
>>739223650 >As long as ones delusional beliefs don't negatively effect others >Why the fuck not? Because this is a contradiction. Delusional beliefs will negatively affect others, even if it is more subtle than flying planes into buildings.
>>739223861 >So theoretical physicists are all snakeoil salesmen? No, the snake oil salesmen are the ones who take what the theoretical physicists can actually show and warp it to fit their spiritual / mystical nonsense.
>>739223650 A lot of people end up making terrible decisions based on "faith." "I'm on God's path! I can't be wrong!" Is a terrible mentality some people fall into. It is even worse when they live in communities together and convince their neighbors of the same bullshit. Thats how we ended up with literal witch hunts, wild west justice, and the idea that [insert mainstream conservative view point against poor people here.]
Jesus had some good teachings though... Basically, don't be a dick. I'm sure a lot of today's religious folk would kill their prophet when he returns.
>>739223986 >I know I exist as a consciousness because I am thinking about it right now Really? What if "you" only exist for one instantaneous moment in time, and each time a thought occurs it's something new thinking it? Is "you" still a meaningful construct?
>>739224380 The continuity of the individuals identity doesn't matter The fact that at each instant I am able to think "I exist" is enough to prove beyond any doubt that I exist in some form, even if it were completely different to what I think it is
>>739224674 >The continuity of the individuals identity doesn't matter It doesn't? >The fact that at each instant I am able to think "I exist" is enough to prove beyond any doubt that I exist in some form That's the whole issue though. If you don't have continuity, how do you exist? What does it mean to exist without it?
>>739224851 >strawman Err... no. It's an example. >out of nowhere It seems extremely relevant. It shows that scientists are not necessarily always logical, and that their scientific expertise does not extend into other areas.
Inventing a story that the world is overseen by a god of judgement and punishment was the best explanation a Bronze Age tribe in the Middle East could come up with for why their lives were always so fucked. It's a heartiest memes the world has ever known.
>>739224898 If you have a glass of water that is constantly replacing the water in it seamlessly, it will always be full even if the water is always changed
Similarly, it doesn't matter if an individuals identity changes every instant, his consciousness (if he has one) is simply the ability to know he exists, that is to follow Descartes cogito. It exists independently of everything else
>>739225571 >If you have a glass of water that is constantly replacing the water in it seamlessly, it will always be full even if the water is always changed Sure, and you can collect the water that was replaced into another glass such that now you have a glass with contents identical to the initial contents of the original glass. What does that mean for the original glass? >his consciousness (if he has one) is simply the ability to know he exists He thinks he knows he exists, but does he actually know? > It exists independently of everything else Does it? What if it is, in fact, dependent on something?
>>739226683 >But I read things from many scientists, thus they all must be illogical for having similar views of the relation between spirituality and theoretical physics. Not necessarily, but they could be. In any event, it isn't science until it goes through the scientific method. >Oh an experimentation that proves consciousness has an effect on forces and whatnot outside the brain? If consciousness is fundamentally physical in nature, this makes perfect sense. How is that spiritual?
>>739226837 Assuming the scientific understanding of the universe (everything is in cycles, universe is reborn after heat death via another big bang), you would eventually come back. And the "eternity" between this death and your next birth would be instantaneous from your point of view.
>>739226877 Nice dubs, its all good, it does kinda ease my mind knowing there is endless sleep after death, Now time to explain to the wife why i should ride a motorcycle (cbr600rr) ((she thinks ill get myself killed)) "But babe, if i die ill just be asleep for like a long time..underground"
>>739226928 To give you an idea of what eternity would be like:
Imagine being stuck in a plain room with one book for years. Now imagine that the lifespan of a star happens in the blink of an eye while you're stuck in that room because of how much time your'e dealing with. Eternity would be torture. No matter how many friends and family you had or how much there was to see and do, you would be driven completely insane by the extreme gulf of time.
>>739227521 >>739227521 >Shit, all I could hope for is that the next iteration of me does a better job at living. This is how i feel, so far this life is trash, hope i will try harder next time, its also a weird thought knowing that the next me isnt going to know all the shit i learned in school, hope the new me is smarter.
>>739227748 >>739227748 That isn't an example of that. An example of that would be meditators causing adverse reactions in the photon patterns of a double slit experiment.
In the example you give, the brain is simply having it's electromagnetic frequencies read -- the forces are controlled by the electronics of the device. That's like saying that when you use your mouse to click through porn, your hand is controlling the internet. Ffs.
>>739213025 Yeah, pretty much. I mean, clearly higher powers exist, we are a higher "power" to other things like ants, fleas, etc. They would probably see us as gods, but as far as there being one all powerful being that rules reality, tell me this, is there just one of anything?
>>739213025 You are all masturbating. The construct is built in such a way as to prevent you from knowing. Whether the construct was built by man through trial and error or consideration, or rather, the construct was built by some other, more majestic "thing", for lack of a better word.
A better question to ask is; Do we need God? Do prayers ever get answered? maybe, sort of, could be, probably is, coincidence. A better question is: why doesn't God intercede? Given answer: his knowing is beyond our understanding - and that sounds like bullshit.
But if he exists and does not truly intercede on our behalf, what use does he have left? Judge us? Why? I mean, we're dead. Heaven and Hell are unproven constructs.
Or as Laura Nyro wrote "I swear there ain't no heaven, and I pray there ain't no hell. But I'll never know by living, only by dying will tell"
I think what's great about America is the ability to make your own choice I come from an angle where I believe in god yet I fully understand that I could be wrong the bible even stats that we were put on this earth for free will live life how you choose man ether way they're no wrong answers
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