Lets seize the means of production, /b/

>>737384728
didnt the rothschild financed marx?

https://youtu.be/eIMDb2wYNTA

>>737384728
What are you implying, anon.

>implying humans aren't good for anything other than dank meme's at this point

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fuck off. Sieze yourself a job position.

>>737384728
Implying any btard is actually productive, and produces anything. /b is white. I own a machine shop, and I can't even get whites to show up for their first day of work half the time. Beaners always show up. Canadians, no prob. Negroes are even more responsible than that these days. But young white mem? Nope, they're off going to school for filmmaking. I guess making videos is going to be what we base a national economy on now.

lol

>>737385349
kek check it: >>737385131

>>737385349
today I learned canadians arent white

>>737384925
No, Engels and then later the International Workingmen's Association helped finance Marx's work.

Anorexic thread?

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>>737385144
Rekt

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>>737385144
Historically, most Marxists have been employed in industrial positions. The largest and most successful Marxist movements were labor based, such as the 1912 presidential campaign of Eugene V. Debs, which saw his Socialist Party carry 7% of the popular, more than any third party since can brag.
Admittedly, this was over shadowed by the equally Marxist, though far more Imperialistic, Bull Moose Party, which came in second after Wilson's Democrats.

>>737384728
Henry sat in his living room, along with his 2 other friends. John and Henry. It was a very stormy and whispy night outside, so they figured that the spooky atmosphere would fuel the oujia session they were planning to have. They all had their hands on the planchet, waiting for a spirit to contact them, then all of a sudden. With a flash of lighting and the roar of thunder echoed in the background, and almost as if the planchet had a mind of it's own, it ran smoothly across the board, spelling out this fateful word on the oujia board "How could you even think about doing this to me" a shiver ran down their spines, yet they continued on with the game. Deciding to now ask the appropiate question of "are you a bad spirit or a good spirit?" to which the spirit quickly answered "good or bad. I don't care, Just give me some of that scrump!" the boys failed to understand this, yet they pressed on, now very weary of the doll in the corner, staring at them as it sits in it's rocking chair, a breeze causing the chair to move. They quickly studder out "W-What do you want?" And then the planchet zipped and zoomed, Pointing at all of the three boys tight juicy bootyasscrackcheekholes! They screamed in terror as this happened, running into the living room in response, to where they heard this "WHAT DID I TELL YOU ABOUT GOING INTO THE FUCKING LIVING ROOM?!?!?!?!" before an audible "Like, tsk. Owie" before cabbage patch dolls poured from the ceiling like they were cum from a water faucet, inflicting major tickle upon their asses! When the toys were done, there was absolutely no cheek left! Not even a single ass molecule was left to tickle nor lick! Such a thing! Now that you have read this the same spirit will come to violate you're ass to the fullest extent! There will be truely no will away for you now!

>>737386202
Nice, you know your history. I've now got respect for your opinion.
As a longstanding closet Marxist (family is Hispanic so seeing as they're very familiar with Castro and the sort they'd flay me if I told them I'm a communist) it's appalling to see the image that everyone has constructed of communism because the mindless populace is spoon fed Jew-curated lies over popular media. History is in fact written by the victor, and it's so sad that the closest thing we have to a true communist rebellion against this are the fucking libtard snowflakes in the U.S.

>>737387302
Nice, now go read a fucking history book about every socialist, communist or marxist country that has ever existed. Millions dead isn't doctoring the facts. Theyre just facts.
Utopia isn't real.

>>737387302
Great to see a de-gusano'd comrade.

Communism has created murderous regimes everywhere that its principles have been implemented.
Marx is trash-tier social revolution for petty, embittered people that are jealous of anyone that has more money than they do.

>>737387302
>it's so sad that the closest thing we have to a true communist rebellion against this are the fucking libtard snowflakes in the U.S.
It's tragic really, though I think not as bad as it appears. Liberals are shit at first, and they're obsession with intersectionality over class analysis makes them hard to educate, but a few have come around. Better yet, they aren't really even in the majority of anything. We have a massive disgruntled working class in this country that hates both the libtards and the cuckservatives, it's a great breeding ground for a Socialist alternative.
Sadly, however, that takes time, and time may be something we have little of.

>>737386522
Then Marx became self employed making pipes and pipedreams.

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>>737387478
>2017
>still believes the "COMUNISM KILLD MILLIANZ" bullshit

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>>737387478
Sorry, you don't get to pretend like Pic related wasn't your ideology's doing.

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>>737387478
>Millions dead isn't doctoring the facts. Theyre just facts.
Amen to that, comrade. Communism will liberate us from the grim ideology of death that now haunts us.

>>737387662
Yeah but Capitalism doesn't claim to usher in a utopia, idiot. Communism has and does, and all it has ever brought is totalitarian regimes and murder their own people, which is entirely different. No one is saying that any path is going to result in perfect peace or that it will stop deaths that don't need to happen. But Communism leads to these things directly.

>>737387717
Funny because thousands of Americunts *will* die under Trump's puppet regime. Why? Because "affordable healthcare is communism and communism kills people."

>>737387834
>Yeah but Capitalism doesn't claim to usher in a utopia, idiot. Communism has and does
Marxism does not define Communism. I don't think anyone here is going to claim that all problems in the social and household economies just magically go away, but they won't be compounded so much by external pressures and people will be handling them.
>totalitarian
Nigger do you even know what this word means, or are you just pastabating from muh Koch brothers?
>murder their own people, which is entirely different
Actually, it isn't. Capitalism does the same, it just does so with deniability.
>No one is saying that any path is going to result in perfect peace or that it will stop deaths that don't need to happen. But Communism leads to these things directly.
You don't get to wash your hands just because YOU do it INdirectly.

>>737387834
>Yeah but Capitalism doesn't claim to usher in a utopia
Nor does communism. Instead communism insists that capitalism will slowly become communism and we'll continue to approach utopia. People think about the big revolutions of communist regimes, but those are reactions to the ideas, not what the ideas describe.

>>737387603
Yes, crapitalism works just fine. We're all temporarily embarrassed millionaires, so let's keep feeding the fat cats.

>>737387603
>Marx is trash-tier social revolution for petty, embittered people that are jealous of anyone that has more money than they do.
How tf are you going to criticize Marx when you don't even know what his book says? It's not an ideology of "vengeance" (though many get hung up on that potential aspect of the ideology), instead it is is an ideology that seeks to find and address the problems in our current economic system through the process of Dialectical Materialism. Ultimately, we believe that the underlying problem of capitalism is that ownership is treated as a fiat of the state instead of a natural product of labor, simply put this means we want the workers to own the means of production.

>>737387834
>Yeah but Capitalism doesn't claim to usher in a utopia
Neither does Communism. We merely claim to advance the dialectic.

>>737387603
But... That wasn't real communism

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Brief introduction to the basics of Dialectical Materialism.

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>>737388155
Brief introduction to "real communism"

>>737387975
I don't get to wash my hands because I do it indirectly? This is basically saying "Yeah you're right. But your system does the same thing."
And then you say Capitalism murders its own people ALSO. Lol. Garbage.

>>737384955
>Overthrow the bourgeoisie
DO IT FAGGOT

>>737388155
Then why did virtually the same thing happen to every country that adopted it? Might be that shitty principles lead to shitty results?

>>737388034
I don't delude myself into thinking that I can become a millionaire. I'm only of average intelligence and humble origins. The best I can do is work hard for what I earn. But I also know what Communism has done to other societies. And I would rather live in an imperfect system that gives me the ability to make something of myself than risk it on a CLEARLY FAILED project. Bury your bullshit philosophy already. It didn't work.

>>737387662
>>737387717
Human nature finest example of cattle behaviour.

People will still die, same went with feminist. Rape and murder will be constant in humanity, no matter how you teach they are both bad.

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>>737388429
The quality of life in countries that have fully or partially adopted Communist principles has historically with few exceptions drastically increased. You're functionally asking why countries that started out far lower on the human development index didn't magically jump lockstep with the US once they decided to try something that wasn't Capitalism. Communism is a practical philosophy and economic system, but it isn't utopian.

>>737388379
>Yeah you're right. But your system does the same thing
By raising the point, you're implying that muh capitailsm is superior because it only murders people INDIRECTLY. You've simply chosen not to accept those deaths as a consequence of your system, as if your choice somehow relieves your system of moral responsibility. Yet they are a consequence of your system.
Are you going to accept responsibility for that which you're arguing, or are you just a neoliberal that needs to star in a gore thread?

>>737388280
You realize when the "people" own the means of production what it really means is the government owns it. Capitalism is where it actually belongs to people. Some people just arent as useful as others.

>>737388429
What shitty results? Russia became a piss-poor, plutocrat-controlled shithole AFTER the fall of Communism.

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>>737388681
>Rape and murder will be constant in humanity
Right, but they went DOWN after feminist theories were implemented. Society progresses into superior iterations as economic systems advance. It's dialectical materialism.

see
>>737388201

>>737388848
>How deep does your doublethink go?
>"Public ownership is when the bourgeoisie claim property through the will of the state, private ownership is when the workers claim property through their labor. Only not that."
>Whoa, that's deep.

>>737388848
>You realize when the "people" own the means of production what it really means is the government owns it
The government is not some creepy leviathan. You just prefer to cower in fear of it because you have an unresolved Oedipal complex or something.
When you have real democracy, not this liberal republicanism shit, as a group the people can nope anything their government turns out. That's almost as good as actually being incorporated into the government.

>>737388737
You only need to talk to people for a bit to see their utopian leanings. They think Communism is the pinnacle of human achievement. "If only you give it a chance." I didn't say I expected countries that started out badly to be fixed overnight. Again, I'm not a utopian. But I also wouldn't hold out high hopes as you seem to do when historically adopting Communism has not just "stumbled" at its inception as you imply, but has led to oppressive regimes controlling everything.
And the reason for that outcome is actually obvious.
Cuba. China. Soviet Union, Vietnam, too. These are MAJOR examples that you refer to as a "few exceptions."
And I don't begrudge you your opinion, but that just seems like such a bullshit excuse. "Look ignore the most horrific thing that happened in the 20th Century."

>>737388034
>We're all temporarily embarrassed millionaires
>all
>millionaires
Capitalism isn't intended to make each and every citizen rich. But it guarantees that the resources are exploited efficiently. This off course doesn't imply those resources will be shared justly.

Has communism ever worked? Once?
Oh okay so shit thread and also the the harbinger for literally millions of its constituents dying by starvation, execution, or a colorful multitude of other horrible life ending circumstances.
Can't believe anyone ever tried to snuff out such a great ideology.

>>737387478
the ideology itself isnt to blame, just like most religions, the problem is incompetent leaders that doesnt know what they are doing, and leaders that just doesnt care about human lives.

also a comunist society is a dynamic one, so claiming that utopia isnt real, is irrelevant to the point you are trying to prove.

>>737388762
Look dude, if you're going to argue about direct versus indirect deaths within a huge system, then you're kind of grasping at straws. Why?
In any system, there's going to be deaths from flaws in the system. So if there were inadvertent deaths within the Soviet Communist system one could almost laugh it off. But if you don't see a difference between a few people not getting adequate aid under Capitalism versus Communist leaders purposefully sending Kulaks out to die in the Siberian winter then I don't know what to tell you.

>>737388737
no, The living standards were shit. ever since the Soviet Union, the people were all regarded as equal but were all dirt poor, had all the same shit quality stuff. were starving and under totalitarian rule (To maintain every aspect of the USSR's preferred communist theory) and only the government officials had a decent life. Communism has fundemental flaws and is an incomplete as a theory.

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>>737387655

>>737389164
>Cuba. China. Soviet Union, Vietnam, too.
They all seem to have been bettered for their adoption of Capitalism. Compare Cuba to any other free-market loving Caribbean nation. Compare Maoist China to the abortive Republic of China. Compare the USSR to Czarist Russia, or even modern Russia. As for Vietnam, can you name another group of illiterate rice farmers that pushed back invasions from TWO nuclear superpowers? The only "exceptions" I can think of are Cambodia and North Korea, though the latter suffers less because of their ideology and more because of the necessities of being at war with a country 4,000 times their size since their inception.

>>737389131
The government isn't some creepy leviathan. That's not what he was saying. The government is dangerous, however. The fact that you even made that sexual is projection, faggot. Maybe your love for your Mommy Communism is a manifestation of an Oedipal complex.

>>737388887
we are referring to when the soviet union was alive.

>>737384728
Let's kill all the commie scum fucks

>>737389131
You need a free market in order to control production of goods. Didnt work so well in the USSR when goverment officials were setting prices for 24m items. Always results in shortages.

The free market is the only fair system. There has to be incentives and competition in order for progress to happen.

All the shit you take for granted. Tvs, smart phones, your fucking ps4 and all video games are all a direct result of free market capitalism.

>>737389474
You say that Communism, a theory, is incorrect because Russia, a country that was never as fully developed as the United States, was not as developed as the United States?
The Soviet Union had flaws, yes, but it was vastly superior to what they had before or what they have now. Hell, just ask the Russians! They love Lenin and Stalin.

>>737389467
>But if you don't see a difference between a few people not getting adequate aid under Capitalism versus Communist leaders purposefully sending Kulaks out to die in the Siberian winter then I don't know what to tell you.
I don't, actually. In both cases those deaths were nothing more than a policy choice. Your frozen Kulaks example carries exactly the same moral gravity as a refusal to provide housing to the homeless and unemployed because muh markets would be sad.

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>>737384728
At least there's a manifesto

>>737386273
sounds gay m8
>im in

>>737389622
>The government is dangerous, however
My point is that the government is not an Other, and Bastiat is a whiny little manlet. When you ARE the government, and not a subject of it, the power relationship is far different and more favorable.
The Oedipus complex has ramifications that stretch far beyond sexuality, Tipper.

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>>737389383
>Has communism ever worked? Once?
Yeah. Rojava.
Or Yugoslavia.
Or Catalonia.
Or if you want to get edgy, the USSR, China, and Cuba.
Hell, or even the US. A LOT of social programs came from the pens of Socialist union men like Debs.

>>737389718
Nah, let's stick to liberals.

>>737389763
>Your frozen Kulaks example carries exactly the same moral gravity as a refusal to provide housing to the homeless

I don't think someone being sent to their death against their will is comparable to someone who can't work a minimum wage job to buy their own food but instead rely entirely on handouts for their own existence.

>>737389561
Solzhenitsyn was a crazy guy and a big pussy. Sergei Korolev was imprisoned too but didn't came out like he survived Auschwitz and shit.

>>737389950
>the USSR, China, and Cuba.

Why do you think so many people fled Cuba and the USSR as soon as they had the opportunity to do so?

Do you think Communism was pleasant to live under?

>>737388201
this is rather zesty
>getsmyzingerzippin.png

>>737390030
>I don't think someone being sent to their death against their will is comparable to someone who can't work a minimum wage job to buy their own food but instead rely entirely on handouts for their own existence.
Naturally you wouldn't, because you're unwilling to step outside the Calvinist frame of muh individual earnings. Good goy.

>>737389591
Lol. You're neglecting the FORCED movement of city dwellers out into the country to work on farms against their will.
Compare the USSR to Czarist Russia? Do you know how many people died in Russian work camps? Or how those that weren't in the camps lived in fear everyday of being randomly sent to one? It's shameful to ignore that. I'm not trying to be harsh, but it's true. Don't pretend that it was a cakewalk.

>>737389591
>Maoist China vs ROC
While China might economically be stronger, taiwanese people fare better on average, and have an actual democracy, now.

>USSR vs Czarist Russia
Czarist Russia was just about to undergo an industrial transition, but needed agricultural reforms that nicolas 2 started, but couldnt finish because of the revolution. And even then, Lenin realized he'd better finish what the czar started. And then came Stalin who thought otherwise, and made it so that, while russia became an industrial and military power, that power could never sustain itself, being built in shoddy foundations (like all things communist, by the way).
>Vietnam
The french and the american forces realized they couldnt do shit against a country that unanimously wanted to turn communist, unless they made a fucking genocide. That's what Nixon tried to do by the way, before realizing it was just not worth the hassle. Nothing to do with communism.

>>737389751
Yeah and supposedly the North Koreans love their glorious leaders too. That doesn't make them NOT shitty.

>>737390151
If you've ever been around homeless people you would know that most of them are drug addicts who don't deserve "free housing."

I don't think you understand what goes into building housing for people, and how fast someone who can't stay in a drug rehab program for 2 weeks will absolutely ruin your "free housing" for the homeless and cost thousands of dollars to make that tiny living space he inhabited even livable again.

Why do the homeless and the unemployed "deserve" housing? What are they contributing? What have they ever contributed?

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>>737390118
>fled
Most were expelled. Landlords don't do well when the power shifts to the people they spent their lives oppressing.

Most of you have never picked up a hammer nor a sickle in your life.

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>>737384728

>>737390326
I mean after "Communism" was established in the USSR and Cuba, and when people finally could escape it (See: Florida)

>>737389422
the no true scotsman fallacy does not justify the consequences of having a communist government and just dismissing it as a "perversion of REAL communism". The ideology is an incomplete ideology with many ambiguities and fundemental flaws, also since realistically it requires totalitarian control to maintain every aspect of communism in a society.

>>737389422
>and leaders that just doesnt care about human lives.

If you give someone ultimate power over others, why would they care about human lives? Just by putting them on that pedestal the whole country knows that this person is more important than the rest, inherently.

Why would that person care about anyone else?

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>>737384728
fucking faggot. /b/ is a capitalist board

>>737389763
Farmers who had done nothing wrong sent against their will into Siberia.
People rounded up in the middle of the night and sent to work camps because their neighbors wanted their apartments and so they made up some lies about them.
Workers routinely sent out to work in below freezing temperatures where they often died, or came back nearly dead.

You don't honestly believe that carries the same moral weight as a society that votes on policy do you?

>>737390030
In fact, because the Kulaks refused to work for society, and were deprived of its privileges by exile, the moral gravity is about the same.

>>737390118
How about we talk about the others anon mentioned, you twat

You did ask for one country, and he gave you more than what you asked.

And yeah, communism was as pleasant, for most people, as the american way of life is today; or even more.

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EACH and every human advancement has been co-inlined with the overall social development and mental capacity of the brain. As a collective we must be well fed and stored, but that is not enough, exploration in existence is what our social ability is for.

Why this is not totally comprehended by everyone is the fact that the majority of human exploration in existence is wasted time. Computational knowledge has been the use for the Left brain and knowledge in comparison in the Right. The reality is with the increase in our holdings between societies the forms of media/art(whicher you prefer) we developed from ink to paper, to painting to holding data in more and more advanced forms. As of right now our technology and how we hold and share data has shot WAY into advancement over what the Great Ape brain can handle. .

Human stupidity will always outshine the honor and respect of our smarts, The universe is mostly dark, the glimmers of light are what we live in.

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>>737390544
Historically /b/ has been an anarchist board. Anarchists are inherently anticapitalist, as Capitalism requires a strong state to maintain a writ of private property.

>>737390587
dude, some homeless people went hungry despite there being thousands of free meal programs provided to anyone who doesn't violently attack the soup kitchen volunteers.

Obviously these vagrants who can't muster up enough politeness or quell their violent tendencies for 5 minutes are comparable to forced death camps, I can't believe how the homeless get treated in places like San Francisco and San Diego and all those other California homeless camps. It's like a modern day Auschwitz!

>>737390651
>communism was as pleasant, for most people, as the american way of life is today

Then why are Russia, Cuba, and China shitholes to live in today?

>>737389931
>>737389931
It's insane that you defend the government. It's not an Other. And yet a class of people that have amassed more wealth than you are an Other? They're just fucking people dude.
And also, you are not the government in a Communist society. History clearly shows that.

>>737390291
>muh north korea
North Korea is governed by a dictatorial nutjob. No matter if he pretends he's marxist or not, he's still a nut job, and even he is but a puppet to the military who reigns supreme in the country. Nothing communist here; just a nutjob.

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>>737390771

>>737390797
>Then why are Russia, Cuba, and China shitholes to live in today?
The collapse of the Eastern block? The censorship of Maoism? And Cuba is doing fine.

>>737384728
Marx wasn't even (((his))) real name. Karl Mordechai is his ACTUAL name

>>737390771
>C.N.T.
seems to be missing a U.

>>737390823
>When you are government... the power relationship is... more favorable

He's imagining he's a part of some great Communist government and he won't be working in the fields or on a manufacturing line, like all great young Communist politicians out of college like Bernie Sanders.

Once "I'M" the government, I won't do all those mean things like death camps and starvations like the other communist governments, I'm actually nice!

>>737390544
Capitalism is for beta cucks. Real alphas skull-fuck their bosses and seize the means of production.

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>>737390873
Lel, go lick a boot classcuck statist.

>>737390651
>And yeah, communism was as pleasant, for most people, as the american way of life is today; or even more.

Said no one who actually lived in a Soviet country ever. You should meet some immigrants from the USSR and ask them, instead of just writing what you assume must be true.

>>737390650
The Kulaks were basically slaves until they got their own farms. Little pieces of land. And SOME, not all, were actually really good at it, and produced a lot. Then they were told that they were parasites and to give up all that they had produced, when they had been slaves not long before.
What the fuck would you do? I wouldn't say comply. They had worked hard and nobody had helped them but maybe the people that lived with them.
They got sent to Siberia and died for that. Fucking bullshit that you would say it's the same.

>>737390889
>The collapse of the Eastern block

Why did it collapse? Did it have anything to do with their system of government?

>And Cuba is doing fine

Why were countless Cubans fleeing on rafts to a free country? Why would they want to come to a terrible Capitalist country if they've been fine?

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>>737391021
>muh bootlicker memes

>>737390871
Yeah, nothing similar to Soviet Russia about that.

>>737390893
His father was named Heinrich Marx. His mother's maiden name was Presburg. What the literal fuck are you on about?

>>737390651
>And yeah, communism was as pleasant, for most people, as the american way of life is today; or even more.

Kek. These guys must have just gotten it all wrong then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Bloc_emigration_and_defection

>>737390797
Bad decisions, no matter what regime you live in, if you add bad decisions over bad decisions you end up with a fuck up of a country.

By the way, China is not communist anymore, and so is Russia. And Cuba, being the small island that got embargo'd so hard by USA, couldnt obviously sustain itself.

>>737389751
I'm talking about all of the cold war era communist countries.

No, you misunderstood what I wrote, the ideology is flawed due to the incompleteness of having "A stateless, money less, classless society where the workers own the means of production" is a vague claim, doesn't answer questions like "how will your economy sustain itself" "how will you keep people in check with no state" which as history has shown causes totalitarian dictators to be in control to maintain every aspect of communism.

The Soviet Union couldn't sustain it's self forever and eventually collapsed, that was the downside of having a communist military superpower.

>>737390325
>deserve
Oh, there's that Calvinist word again. Desert is society's decision to make, not yours.
>>737390325
>and how fast someone who can't stay in a drug rehab program for 2 weeks will absolutely ruin your "free housing" for the homeless and cost thousands of dollars
Those are indirect but nonetheless easily attributable consequences of another "Christian" policy decision, that of banning drugs and restricting their supply. When the average middle-class housewife was getting heroin under medical supervision, there wasn't a problem.
I don't think you know just how many hidden assumptions you're working with, or just how much of your reality is actually bullshit.
>Why do the homeless and the unemployed "deserve" housing
Ah, we've figured out that you are the bourgeoisie Marx warned us about and your loss will be literally nothing of value. What makes you think that, in a society that wasn't set up against them, that they could not in fact contribute meaningfully to society according to their ability, even if that's something as mundane but necessary as wiping down tables in a cafeteria? Indeed, if they weren't declared unworthy and criminalized, they might even work alongside you just as competently as you. That's what scares you, isn't it? Not having anyone to kick as you are so clearly entitled?

>>737391216
> By the way, China is not communist anymore, and so is Russia.

Why not? During their point of being Communist countries, did something bad happen to their countries? Were their people upset, living in bad conditions, and in some instances simply slaughtered?

That sounds like a pretty bad thing that happened. I'm glad they got rid of Communism.

>Cuba, being the small island that got embargo'd so hard by USA, couldnt obviously sustain itself.

Maybe it shouldn't have picked the ideology with all of its allies on the other side of the world.

>>737385144
nazis are the dumbest people on the planet. Why would give up all your rights just to ensure the state hates on other races? Most nazis are shit tier people anyway that would get a hellish position in a nazi regime. Probably in the police.

>>737391216
>By the way, China is not communist anymore, and so is Russia.

Gee, what could have spurred those changes, I wonder.

>>737391058
>Did it have anything to do with their system of government?
Yeah, they stopped pursuing the Revolutionary dialectic, staggered, and fell. Had they continued seeking the liberation of the international proletariat, who knows what would have happened.

>countless Cubans fleeing on rafts to a free country
4500 is hardly "countless". Why were millions of capitalist Mexicans hopping the fence to get to the US? Answer for both of our questions: Development levels.

>>737391357
>society that wasn't set up against them
>consequences of another "Christian" policy decision
>usewife was getting heroin under medical supervision, there wasn't a problem.

I found the Communist guys, the anti-Christian, hates his parents, pro-Black Lives Matter community college student.

Those poor homeless people who did nothing wrong in their lives, why was society "SET UP AGAINST THEM?"

Why didn't society tell them not to rape and attack people on the street, and not to do coke and carry guns while drinking and driving? Why was society so against them?

>>737391368
>Maybe it shouldn't have picked the ideology with all of its allies on the other side of the world.
Right, because capitalist countries like Haiti and the Dominican are just peachy.

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>>737390651
see > Living conditions in the soviet union.

The Video game industry is a multi billion dollar capitalist scene. Except not a single producer can beat the sales of a game made by a socialist state.

The USSR still holds the record.

>>737391497
>4500

Around 500,000 Cubans came to the USA the 15 years following the revolution, 400,000 more in the 30 years following that.

Is that why you're a communist? Your math teacher told you you have no worth, because you don't understand numbers with more than 3 zeroes?

>>737391357
>society's decision to make

All those Soviets should have made a decision not to be sent to work camps. Maybe they felt they deserved it, I guess. After all, it was a free society.
>your loss will be literally nothing of value

While you judge him for not caring about society, you're literally uttering words with murderous implications, but can't taste the contradiction on your tongue.

>>737391674
>>While you judge him for not caring about society, you're literally uttering words with murderous implications

What do you expect from Communists? They literally believe entire classes of people should be eliminated from society.

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>>737390693
Now let me correct, if you read this and you think its an excuse to the Ayn Ryan comprehension of community. Go fuck yourself you retard you are the problem.

>>737390326
>Most were expelled. Landlords don't do well when the power shifts to the people they spent their lives oppressing.
Oh is that why Cuban exiles are so heavily conservative! I never thought of that.

>>737390587
>Farmers who had done nothing wrong sent against their will into Siberia.
Right and wrong is defined by capitalist logic, in your world, isn't it? In socialism, these moral decisions would be made according to different, possibly better standards.
>People rounded up in the middle of the night and sent to work camps because their neighbors wanted their apartments and so they made up some lies about them.
what is the drug war
>Workers routinely sent out to work in below freezing temperatures where they often died, or came back nearly dead.
The Tsars never did that under their feudal system, I'm perfectly sure. Russians, and indeed other eastern peoples, have long had a culture of non-individualism and no particular duty to provide help to the unwelcome. In the Russian environment, you don't survive without help. Your argument doesn't work in milder climates or different cultures.
>You don't honestly believe that carries the same moral weight as a society that votes on policy do you?
In either case, a decision gets made and nature takes its course.
Anyway, society doesn't vote on policy. The ruling class votes on policy and, importantly, society can't nope them, except in very limited circumstances. Unlike most Americans, I can envision something better than merely reenacting the past. Why can't you?

>>737391654
Trials for crimes against the people in Cuba ended in 1980. Before that, the majority of gusanos leaving Cuba did so because that was their sentence. Since 1980 about 4500 Cubans have "fled" the country.
You make a good Capitalist, ignoring historical context when it doesn't fit your "narrative".

>>737390893
When in doubt, blame (((DA JOOS)))

>>737391622
No one is denying the often surprising levels of production generated by slave labor.

>>737390823
>It's insane that you defend the government. It's not an Other.
They're just people. Us, in fact.
>And yet a class of people that have amassed more wealth than you are an Other? They're just fucking people dude.
They have a different, controlling relationship to the means of production. Their interests are in direct conflict to ours.
>And also, you are not the government in a Communist society. History clearly shows that.
Do you Anglos lack the ability to do anything other than larp the past over and over again without any thought to context?

>>737391943
>Since 1980 about 4500 Cubans have "fled" the country.

Why do the 400,000 people who left the country after 1980 not count as leaving the country?

Do you get to pretend your country is fine and everyone is happy when people hope rafts float to Florida for a life in a different country?

>>737391158
Heinrich Marx was born Herschel Mordechai

>>737391451
lol. Commies are the most delusional people on this earth. Why would you give up your rights and starve to "make everyone equal" in hopes for a "utopia" of freedom to fall out of the sky. Usually autist tier people who adopt an ideology solely because it sounds good rather than fundamentals. You would probably be starving. Probably kulak.

Also, who said i'm a nazi? Did the hitler chuckle gif drive your tiny brain into "generalize everyone mode"?

>>737391764
>They literally believe entire classes of people should be eliminated from society.
>Read: They want to end social parasitism, but that scares me.
No one has a right to steal your labor. When a class exists solely as a function of that labor theft it has to go. Mind you, we don't need to kill everyone in that class, we just need to stop them from exploiting the workers.

>>737392045
>Do you Anglos lack the ability to do anything other than larp the past over and over again without any thought to context?

Lol, "history teaches us nothing that ideology can't!"

>>737392063
>Why do the 400,000 people who left the country after 1980 not count as leaving the country?
Dafuq is your source for that?

>>737391357
>Ah, we've figured out that you are the bourgeoisie Marx warned us about and your loss will be literally nothing of value. What makes you think that, in a society that wasn't set up against them, that they could not in fact contribute meaningfully to society according to their ability, even if that's something as mundane but necessary as wiping down tables in a cafeteria? Indeed, if they weren't declared unworthy and criminalized, they might even work alongside you just as competently as you. That's what scares you, isn't it? Not having anyone to kick as you are so clearly entitled?

You're forgetting, that even in a capitalist society, the most drug addled, worthless pieces of shit like you can still get jobs flipping burgers, picking up trash and cleaning toilets (where you belong). Instead you unsustainable parasites still choose to drain the welfare system that we 'bourgeoisie' provide.

>>737384728
>>>737387478
>the ideology itself isnt to blame, just like most religions, the problem is incompetent leaders that doesnt know what they are doing, and leaders that just doesnt care about human lives.
>
>also a comunist society is a dynamic one, so claiming that utopia isnt real, is irrelevant to the point you are trying to prove.
So if YOU were the despotic ruler in charge of a communist nation, YOU would make it work.
The dozens of times its been tried and ended up in all starvation is a coincidence?
Look at Venezula. Better off today?
Enjoy your future bread lines

>>737391950
Heinrich Marx changed his name because he was born as Herschel Mordechai. (((you)))

>>737391911
>right and wrong is defined by capitalist logic
No, right and wrong are tricky issues that take time to develop and articulate. However, yes, I would say sending those farmers off to die in Siberia was the wrong thing to do. 1. Because they were the most productive members of that class. and 2. Because since they were the most productive members of society, once they were sent off to die, there weren't enough crops for anyone anymore and millions of people died JUST FROM THAT.
So just objectively, it didn't work. I would say that's a fair measure of doing the wrong thing. But the moral issue is something that can be debated, too. Killing people on purpose is wrong.

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>>737391973

Gotta be a real vacant Canal to be able to pull such shit out of your ass.

>>737392187
Read:
>you are the bourgeoisie Marx warned us about and your loss will be literally nothing of value.

This is all Communists talk about. Communists never talk about what kinds of jobs they'll have when they establish their Communist government. Communists never talk about all the great public works they're going to build once they get their Communist government.

All they talk about is all the "parasitism" of the Bourgeoisie, because you will be "nothing of value."

All your messages are dehumanizing and advocating for murder, whether you backtrack and deny it in this post now.

>>737384728
Fuck no, some parasite faggot is gonna rise up and steal it all and force into misery. Communism will never exist.

>>737392045
Just because SOME of their interests are in conflict with SOME interests of another class does not mean they are an enemy. That's an unsophisticated, simplistic view. That's what a child thinks. "Not my family. Bad person."

>>737384728
One word for the problem you face addressing this here: lumpenproletariat.

>>737392099
So? My great great grandfather came to this country and changed his name from "Mueller" to "Miller". Does that make me, my dad, my granddad, and my great granddad "Mueller" men now?
Plus, since I know your going for (((DA JOOZ))) here, Jewish heritage passes matrilineally.

>>737392187
>When a class exists solely as a function of that labor theft it has to go. Mind you, we don't need to kill everyone in that class, we just need to stop them from exploiting the workers.

Aahahaha, it's always about those nebulous "workers" isn't it? Steal everything from everyone until all the "workers" are equal.

>>737391047
>They had worked hard
Again, more of your Protestant bullshit, which at the very least doesn't apply to Orthodox. Not an argument.

>>737391674
>All those Soviets should have made a decision not to be sent to work camps
Some probably did. Some probably succumbed to force, a constraint which I'm finally glad you're acknowledging. I'll note that Marx was absolutely in favor of arming the populace so that a tyrant grand soviet doesn't make poor decisions lightly. Yet the US keeps getting worse anti-human decisions and none of those Gadsdenfags do dick about it other than grumble and grope themselves?

>>737391674
>While you judge him for not caring about society, you're literally uttering words with murderous implications, but can't taste the contradiction on your tongue.
Society is not merely a collection of individuals, Ms. Thatcher. I really do think destroying neoliberalism's components, i.e. their believers and collaborators, is a moral human duty, btw. Again, you gain no moral advantage by standing off at a distance while the rules you support are set in motion toward their entirely predictable conclusion.

>>737392269
>even in a capitalist society, the most drug addled, worthless pieces of shit like you can still get jobs flipping burgers, picking up trash and cleaning toilets
False premise. The structure of capitalism as practiced literally requires a certain rate of unemployment. It's called NAIRU. Look it up.

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>>737392556

>>737392305
Hitler changed his name because he was born (((Adolf Schicklenstein)))

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>>737392605

>>737392456
>Just because SOME of their interests are in conflict with SOME interests of another class does not mean they are an enemy. That's an unsophisticated, simplistic view. That's what a child thinks. "Not my family. Bad person."
Nobody is entitled to their station in life. Status isn't property. When those bourgeois interests include dominating that other class and maintaining that structure against the will of that other class, yes, actually, they do.

>>737391911
Wrong. Society votes on policy. To say the ruling class votes on policy is to claim to understand an incredibly complicated system. There are definitely ways for people to influence, but there are ways to check that influence.
Look man I don't argue that it's perfect at all. But I also don't think this notion of a class war is right. We all exist, regardless of the system, in a hierarchy. But you Communists pretend that that will be done away with, and that everyone will be more or less equal, which is probably impossible and its also NOT EVIDENT that it would be good for anyone.

>>737387662
>capitalism killed 60 million in world war 2
ok kiddo

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>>737392774

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>>737392537
Dafuq is nebulous about a worker? Someone who produces goods or services through their labor is a worker. Someone who takes those goods in return for a paltry wage is a bourgeois parasite. Someone who does both is petit-bourgeois.
You can't "steal" what you own. Workers own what they produce, and what they use in that production. I don't recognize the authority of a state to act like god and try to place ownership on a piece of paper.

>>737387717
Why aren't you dead yet? That's a genuine question.

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>>737392871

>>737392774
>its also NOT EVIDENT that it would be good for anyone.

For a communist to admit that would be a violation of their ideology; don't hold your breath.

>>737392556
>False premise. The structure of capitalism as practiced literally requires a certain rate of unemployment. It's called NAIRU. Look it up.

I don't need to delve into your leftist ideology to see the result of the welfare state on first world countries over the past generation.

>>737392881
>Why aren't you dead yet?
I am.

>>737392556
>Protestant bullshit

I mean, you can't deny an argument just because you happen to think it's rooted in Christianity. In everything you do, you're working towards something. If you really want it, you are going to work hard. This is literally all of life. It's just having a goal and working towards it.
You sound like you're denying the reality of someone working for something and finding that meaningful, which is delusional, straight up. But even if it wasn't, you can't take it away from people. Humans do find that kind of thing meaningful, and if you want to act like you're above it then you're just showing contempt for the very people you claim to want to help.

>>737388737
We have niggers

>>737387662
>Capitalism killed 60 million in WWII
Hue hue hue hue, no, Authoritarian Socialism, Fascism, and Nazism killed 60 million in WWII.

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>>737392556

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>>737392977

>>737389950
Fucking retarded

>>737392871
>Someone who produces goods or services through their labor is a worker.

So, virtually everybody, in one way or another. Except, of course, the ones who have more than some of the others, which is also everybody. Better start stealing.

> I don't recognize the authority of a state to act like god

Ahahahahahaha, right. Of course you don't.

>>737384728
lets do it comrade

>>737390771
Fat cunt?

>>737389950
>Rojava
>Communist
KEKEKEKEKEKEKE

>>737392556
Lol, and yet the rules you support are not entirely predictable? Almost every argument you make can be levied against Communism you dipshit.

Again, "destroying" people is exactly what Communism is about, but you veil it behind a smoke screen of caring for downtrodden members of society. You don't give two fucks about those people. You're just bitter, and it shows.

>>737392605
Trump changes his name because he was born (((Donald Drumpfbowitz)))

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>>737393065
Did you know that slow speed two stroke diesel engines can burn what is essentially tar as fuel>

>>737392871
>Workers own what they produce, and what they use in that production.

So someone who exerts labor by designing a certain factory system, secures a loan, hires people who then produce widgets that he sells at a profit...he's a worker, right? Does he get to keep the product of the labor he exerted?

>>737393065
>the ones who have more than some of the others
Right, and they got that from being REALLY GOOD at working assembly lines, and not from sleeping in an office all day. Stop living in your capitalist fantasyland and look at how the real world works.

>>737392774
>Wrong. Society votes on policy. To say the ruling class votes on policy is to claim to understand an incredibly complicated system
Not at all. The ruling class are the only people who vote on policy.
>There are definitely ways for people to influence, but there are ways to check that influence.
Then it's not a vote, is it. Go read GIlens & Page's 2014 paper and stop wasting time with your muh democracy misnomer.
>But I also don't think this notion of a class war is right. We all exist, regardless of the system, in a hierarchy
And we don't HAVE to. That's the point, here.
>But you Communists pretend that that will be done away with, and that everyone will be more or less equal
There will still be formal hierarchy and chains of command, as would be generally necessary for any organization to coordinate, but they don't need to be permanent and they don't need to be pervasive. I'm a fan of sortition, myself, just like in jury duty. Given a large enough panel, a few bad apples won't spoil the whole bunch.
Personally, I'm not even in it for the equality. I'm in it for getting the full benefit of my labor, on average, rather than paying some self-appointed dildo for standing in my way.

>>737392947
>>It's called NAIRU. Look it up.
>I don't need to delve into your leftist ideology
>considers Milton Friedman a leftist
Kek. You're too stupid to argue with. Just kill yourself and save us the trouble.

>>737392750
Wrong. People that work to attain things deserve that. My family started out with next to nothing, but hard work is a reality of life. If you go to school and work your ass off, you should be better off than others. And the thing is, that that's how it's going to be. That's literally how nature is. Some people excel and others dont. Blaming "the ruling class" is an oversimplification

>>737390544
summerfags are ancap kulaks
only true girugameshs oldfags know the joy of fully automated gay space communism

>>737393299
>Does he get to keep the product of the labor he exerted?
Yeah? If he has the initiative to run a factory I imagine he'd be elected foreman.

>>737392983
Fascism started WW2, Communism ended it, capitalism nuked Japan.

>>737384728
In common struggle, bro.

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>>737390998
no

>>737393402
(((You)))

>>737393418
God damn right. isn't it funny how the only country that's ever been nookt made anime

>>737393361
>Wrong. People that work to attain things deserve that.
No, they don't. That's Protestant thinking.
>My family started out with next to nothing, but hard work is a reality of life.
No, it's a Protestant meme.
>work your ass off, you should be better off than
Why? I don't owe you shit for your sacrifice to your false god.
>That's literally how nature is.
Where is the line between nature and a hundred generations of selective breeding?
>Some people excel and others dont. Blaming "the ruling class" is an oversimplification
Not at all. Most positions in the bourgeoisie are inherited, to a greater or lesser extent.

>>737393312
>Right, and they got that from being REALLY GOOD at working assembly lines, and not from sleeping in an office all day

Spoken like someone who's never actually had an effective boss.

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>>737393133
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYHCP2_q5Fo
???

>>737393342
We don't have to exist within a hierarchy is your claim. And yet earlier people were saying I was wrong for thinking Communism is utopian.
1. Nature arranges itself in hierarchies.
2. Communism has never fixed that. Ever.
You don't have to tell me about Communism's promises. The fact is, it flies in the face of how nature has arranged itself for billions of years.

>>737393407

Does he get paid more for doing something no one else bothered to do?

>>737384728
Capitalism is in full steam, the point at which it fails, soon the poor of the world will rise from their immisceration to take back the goods forged from the blood and sweat of the proletariat.

>>737393342
If you want the full benefit of your labor, then start a company.

>>737393560
Look man, you are saying it's Protestant thinking without arguing it. So argue that point

>>737393418
Communism didn't end shit, USSR was Authoritarian Socialist.

>>737393666

To the extent that Capitalist societies don't take care of the primary needs of its citizens, it's true they invite revolution. But nothing about that suggests anything about the rationality of Communism or the likelihood it would ever work.

>>737393697
and exploit yourself to beat the competition that exploits millions?
why?

>>737393633
1. Comparing humans to nature is essentially arguing that we must be animalistic
2. Russians are historically ruled by an oligarchy of elites regardless of bolshevism

>>737393633
>You don't have to tell me about Communism's promises. The fact is, it flies in the face of how nature has arranged itself for billions of years.

Evidence and history are bourgeois concepts.

>>737393636
>paid more
Communists don't believe in wages. Or, going back to your earlier point, loans and money to speak of. These things exist to preserve the illusion of scarcity.
In a communist society one would do the things you described not out of base hunger and primal fear, but instead out of human desire for self-actualization.

>>737393697
So I have to balance being a parasite and exploiting my fellow man to stay ahead against competing with people who have no qualms doing so?
No thanks. That's cowardly and does fuckall to fix anything.

>>737393756
>summerfag detected

>>737393845
If you believe in exploitation so much, what makes you think that people won't do that in a Communist society? Clearly they have and will.

>>737393740
thats just protestant values determining your wolrd-view, they had all that if you are a good person god shows it in this life with mad moneyz, and the poor are obviously bad people
this isn't really the cause anymore because the values are metamorphosing through history, and get new and new justifications, yet remain in their core essentially unchanged as is the case with capitalist "ethics"

>>737393895
>In a communist society one would do the things you described not out of base hunger and primal fear, but instead out of human desire for self-actualization.

Right, just like on Star Trek. All they had to do was secure an inexhaustible source of free energy and automation.

>>737393853
Humans are nature dude.
I'm saying we evolved to exist a certain way that Communism expects to fix by going against our natural desire to compete and advance and gain status.
It's not that THAT'S the whole point of existence, but it's not evil like Communists like to think.

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>>737384728
>grab em by the pussy
Got it.

>>737393633
>We don't have to exist within a hierarchy is your claim
We don't have to owe our existence to individuals who claim a permanent, "earned" higher station in a hierarchy, is my claim.
>1. Nature arranges itself in hierarchies.
No, humans impose their layers of structure onto nature and pretend that it's a moral duty to adhere. Considering how many times particular species have been moved around to a new part of the taxonomy of life based upon some newly discovered property, and how many new categories are created for species which have been around for thousands if not millions of years, I claim you're full of shit.
>2. Communism has never fixed that. Ever.
State capitalism never tried, dummy.
>The fact is, it flies in the face of how nature has arranged itself for billions of years.
False.

>>737393740
wikipasta:
The Protestant work ethic, the Calvinist work ethic[1] or the Puritan work ethic[a][2] is a concept in theology, sociology, economics and history which emphasizes that hard work, discipline and frugality[3] are a result of a person's subscription to the values espoused by the Protestant faith, particularly Calvinism.

The concept is often credited with helping to define the societies of Northern, Central and Western Europe such as in Scandinavia, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, Germany, and Switzerland. Even though some of these countries were more affected by Lutheranism or Anglicanism than Calvinism, local Protestants nevertheless were influenced by these ideas to a varying degree. As penal law was enacted to uphold the uniform teachings of the Church of England in England, only various English dissenters[c] held to those values. Among them were the Puritans who emigrated to New England, bringing the work ethic with them and helping define the culture of what would become the United States of America. Germanic immigrants brought their work ethic to the United States of America, Canada, South Africa and other European colonies.

>>737393949
they have an they will,
the point is to try to alleviate the most basic problems of that (dying from not having enogh money), the problem with past communist regimes is that they were only micro-communists and capitalist as a state, and then failed as a capitalist state

>>737393883
So you're basically denying science. Actual facts and shit. Lol. That's pathetic. Your argument rests on everything being relative.

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why the fuck does this thread exist again?

>>737393791
Thats the beauty of marx's work, he applauded capitalism but was observant of its flaws. And he himself was flawed in many ideas respectively. But communism was his vision of a society without government. A society that didnt need government to rule the people but ultimately he admitted that only a strict socialist government could bring us to this state of self rule. Seems very paradoxical but intriguing none the less.

The biggest issue in my opinion are the people who blindly defend some of the dated ideas of capitalism, while also not realizing that modern capitalism grew from socialist policy implemented in capitalism

>>737393895
You don't think telling hardworking men that want to produce something and make something of their endeavors that it's actually evil and they should work for society instead of themselves exploiting your fellow man?

>>737394126
>>1. Nature arranges itself in hierarchies.
>No, humans impose their layers of structure onto nature and pretend that it's a moral duty to adhere. Considering how many times particular species have been moved around to a new part of the taxonomy of life based upon some newly discovered property, and how many new categories are created for species which have been around for thousands if not millions of years, I claim you're full of shit.

No...no, hierarchies exist everywhere in nature. From chimps to fucking lobsters. You really, really should open a fucking book. This is why no one listens to Communists.

>>737394108
Dont be a ducking hippie, dogs dont fly apache helicopter, it has missiles and a machinegun

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>>737394072
>All they had to do was secure an inexhaustible source of free energy and automation.
If we wait for the perfect Goldilocks time to start transitioning out of Capitalism billions will die needlessly. Lets start distributing nonscarce resources we treat as scarce (bread, water, most medicine) before we worry about what IS scarce. When we get their we can work out it's distribution as well, democratically and equitably.

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I reiterate, why the fuck is this pointless discussion still going?

>>737394251

Marx believed in historical process. He understood society must pass through stages of development. He regarded Capitalism a vital stage to achieve Communism.

Marx was a Capitalist.

>>737392099
Drumpf

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>>737394272

ah yes, the appeal to nature fallacy

i don't recall lobsters being able to fucking build rockets that take them to the moon

we are on an entirely different fucking level compared to all currently observed forms of life

>>737394414
I never say this on /b but i agree with you

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please, everyone shut the fuck up

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>>737393605
Bunch of people dancing next to a Hammer and sickle don't make them commies.
Rojava according to Commies:
https://libcom.org/library/grim-reality-rojava-revolution-anarchist-eyewitness

Also read the bottom of pic related, Rojava wants to raise money, a non-communist ideal. They're communal socialists based in part on anarchism.

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>>737394232

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>>737394272
>No...no, hierarchies exist everywhere in nature.

Does man live in a state of nature?

>>737394272
>No...no, hierarchies exist everywhere in nature. From chimps to fucking lobsters. You really, really should open a fucking book.
They are accidents, not deliberate decisions. As deliberate deciders we have the capacity to arrange our societies to our own benefit, and the awareness to understand our own benefit on a broader, collective sense. You should open a book and see just how collectivist most animals are.

>>737394446
sauce?

>>737394023
Well, see in arguing your point you've already made a few mistakes. I haven't mentioned God at all. People who work hard merely deserve a bigger portion than those who don't work as hard. Anyone that has ever worked with a lazy person understands this. It's not about divine intervention. It's about giving to a person what he earned. And that's why competition exists.
Secondly, I never said the poor are bad people. The poor are not well off for a variety of reasons. Not because they're bad people, although sometimes yeah that's the case. Most people are bad.
Then you ended what you said by kind of agreeing with me. Through evolution we have developed an ethic. It hasn't come out of Protestantism. Protestantism is a new manifestation of it. It existed before that and it will exist after. So while you say that things aren't changing and at the core they're the same (and that's a bad thing, in your opinion), I'm saying that the reason that is is because we developed that ethic through evolution, and it's the best one we have. Not that there's nothing wrong with it.

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well guys, I'm going to fucking kill myself now. Hate you all. Fuck off

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>>737394272
>No...no, hierarchies exist everywhere in nature.

You do know an "appeal to nature" is a logical fallacy?

Pic related.

>>737394268
>evil
I'm not going to assign moral value to purely economic matters, because doing so would be dishonest. It is simply a matter of rights. A man has a right to declare ownership over what he produces and what he uses in that production. A man has no right to claim that pieces of paper signed off by some "higher authority" grants him the authority to take the other man's rights.

>>737394446
>ah yes, the appeal to nature fallacy

Uh, the claim was that we merely project hierarchies onto nature because we are hierarchical. I.e., that natural hierarchies aren't real. But of course they are.

But you're right, there is no moral imperative to be hierarchical, if that's what you meant. But Communism runs on hierarchies. Communists need hierarchies in order to determine who to steal from.

>i don't recall lobsters being able to fucking build rockets that take them to the moon
>we are on an entirely different fucking level compared to all currently observed forms of life

Yes, that is true. And Communists still aren't satisfied and want to steal shit and murder everyone who has more than them. That train's never late.

>>737385349
From your stand point its great for your well being to own a business and have anybody work minimum wage. Is it great for society as far as cost of living

>>737394515

communists support socialist rojava, most of us aren't going to reject something because it isn't entirely communistic

we still believe that market socialism or democratic confederalism are perferable alternatives to capitalism

capitalism isnt just HUR DUR WE HAVE MONEY AND BUY SHIT like most spergs think it is

>>737394523
Adolf Hitler nationalized the banks following unbearable debts.

>>737394523
Marx's eschatology never appealed to me. The bourgeoisie have had 150+ years and plenty of experiments to change the course of history.

>>737394639
>A man has a right to declare ownership over what he produces and what he uses in that production
>A man has no right to claim that pieces of paper signed off by some "higher authority" grants him the authority to take the other man's rights.
>he writes on something even more ephemeral than a piece of paper
And we have a right to ignore his declaration, laugh at him, mock him, and generally take his muh property for ourselves. You have only the rights that a society chooses to recognize.

>>737394639

If a man produces an item using another man's property, who owns the item?

>tfw my argument is so good the bourgeois are ignoring it

>>737394126
>We don't have to owe our existence to individuals who claim a permanent, "earned" higher station in a hierarchy, is my claim.

Well that's different than what you first said. We don't owe our existence to anyone though. Capitalists believe that too. So what the fuck. But Communism is clearly a failed answer.

Humans don't impose shit on nature dude. We have existed for billions of years an we've watched ourselves and each other. And we have arranged ourselves into hierarchies. Lobsters do the same shit. Monkeys do the same shit. Nature is a dog eat dog world. That's the reality. But we don't choose to live in that vicious world entirely, so we create societies. But those still function with hierarchies. And some people always wind up at the top. If you don't think someone will be exploiting you under Communism you've got your head up your ass.

>>737394446
But you're still gonna die afterall, what about that

>>737394272
I don't think you've taken a college level bio course

>people will be handling them

We will look after you comrade, let us take care of everything. What's that, you want to do something yourself? To the gulag with you comrade, only stuff we allow you to do can be done, time for some reeducation for you comrade.

>>737394126
Jesus man. Be smart. Just because Calvinism stresses hard work doesn't mean that's the origin of that idea, or that the beginning of Calvinism marks the beginning of people appreciating hard work.

>>737394762
>The bourgeoisie have had 150+ years and plenty of experiments to change the course of history.

And, they simply concentrated wealth. As Marx predicted. 65 people own half the World's wealth.

Their greatest achievment has been to obscure their ownership.

>>737394515
>They're communal socialists based in part on anarchism.
Yeah, specifically democratic confederalism. A COMMUNIST theory developed by Murray Bookchin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6zCcJf494

>>737394559
i was telling you the origins of your value-scheme, not its current contents

the thing is, that work is nothing to be valued in itself, but that work is only the mode of production of what we value
then the problem is why do we value a 0.5$ cheaper plastic toy than the life and well-being of another human that is as far as we know the most complex organism in the universe...

>>737394802
>If you don't think someone will be exploiting you under Communism you've got your head up your ass.

Everyone who has less than someone else feels exploited. The easiest way to ease that feeling of exploitation is to shoot the richer guy and take what's his. Which is exactly what Communists have historically done, and will continue to do everywhere Communism is implemented.

>>737394802
Humans aren't animals, you silly

>>737394761

No.

Hitler privatized the banks.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/09/nazi_privatizat.html

>>737394797
You can't produce something using another person's property. As long as your using something, it's yours.

Marx was a fool. He had the right idea but if you've ever read any of his work you would realize the process was flawed. Overthrowing the means of production is one thing, willingly handing it over to those who produced the overthrow is another. Those people are inherently egoistic and opportunistic, same as capitalists, calling it the state is just a rose by different colors. That's why we've never seen a successful "communist" revolution. Once they gain power the process starts itself over again at an even more damaging rate. True leftists, and there aren't many out there, agree with Bakunin, who said it must be smashed to begin with (lest we forget his wing was banned from the IWA). The state must be abolished and never be seen again. That's the only way we can succeed, see Catalonia during WW2. Rocker had it right. We, as those who truly work, can dictate history. This is not some edgy teenage battle, it is a real one that I will fight for everyday.

>>737394760
I never raised that point however, I was laughing at the notion Rojava was Communist because somebody hailed that society as a Communist achievement. Communist achievement? No. Socialist? Yes.

>>737395035
>what's his
Why? Because he says it is? What right does a man have to the product of another's labor?

>>737395005
Work is to be valued in itself. Obviously it gives people a sense of meaning, but if you're paying someone, then hard work has value

no lets kill all jews

>>737394944
>Just because Calvinism stresses hard work doesn't mean that's the origin of that idea, or that the beginning of Calvinism marks the beginning of people appreciating hard work.
It's where the West got it from and it's an operative dynamic in most every capitalist economy. Prior to that, enough was enough.

>>737394909
One of the attractions of socialism is a reduction in work hours because of less dead-weight loss from the bourgeoisie. The correct answer is do it on your own damn time.

>>737395035
>Everyone who has less than someone else feels exploited
You are ignoring the qualitatively different relationships to the means of production that bourgeoisie and proletarians have.
Do Young Republifats even know what they're selling?

>>737395233
>What right does a man have to the product of another's labor?
Ask your boss that.

>>737394967
Anarchist theory.
>FTFY

>>737395159

If a man homesteads a wood and goes fishing, and another man unwittingly claims a tree in that wood and makes a canoe, who owns the canoe?

The man who idly claimed the wood? Or, the man who mixed his labor with the tree?

Save your relpy until I've got some popcorn. Your mental gymnsatics will be fun...

>>737392177
you first generalized that i'm a commie and then complain about it. You also made an anti socialist comment and given their dichotomy it's a fair judgment when you also post gifs of your fanboy. fucking faggot

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>>737388201
>everybody's chill

not a lot of people want to do a bunch of shit and get paid like everyone else... you stupid faggot

>>737395311
Well, it's not syndicalist, and it ain't mutualist, so it's anarcho-communist.
So, again, COMMUNIST theory. COMMUNIST government.

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>>737384728

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>>737395337

>man who sits by while laborer creates canoe owns the tree because he worked for it obviously somehow
>mfw i'm a classcuck
>mfw communism is inevitable
>mfw

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>>737395433
62 mil? Those are ROOKIE NUMBERS. Let's look at what the Capitalists have been up to while the Soviets were doing that.

So you can talk about politics on 4chan without some /pol/fag shitting all over the place. Interesting.

>>737395273
>>>737395035 (You)
>>Everyone who has less than someone else feels exploited
>You are ignoring the qualitatively different relationships to the means of production that bourgeoisie and proletarians have.

Communists ignore that too. All that matters to them is who has more than someone else, not whether what someone has is earned. That's why every communist regime has been a murderous catastrophe.

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>>737395433

we aren't buying your propaganda then, fascist scum and we aren't buying it now. we will drown you in your own blood like we did back in the good ol days

death to fascists

>>737395433
of course! stalin and lenin were jews who killed millions!

>>737395337
I mean, if the homesteader guy could claim emotional damages or something in court maybe he could get the canoe? Otherwise it's pretty clearly belongs to the canoe-builder. Man, I deal with economic theories. Not random legal cases you pull out of your ass.

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>>737395441

>>737395603
>Communists ignore that too. All that matters to them is who has more than someone else, not whether what someone has is earned. That's why every communist regime has been a murderous catastrophe.
You keep blaming communists for state capitalists wearing communism as drag. Why?

>>737395337
If I was the dude who owned the woods I'd make him pay me some amount for the material and Let him keep the canoe

>>737395433
(((DA JOOZ)))

>>737395450
More like Anarchism with Libertarian Socialist leanings. After all, all that you listed isn't the entire scope of Anarchism.

>>737395538
>62 mil? Those are ROOKIE NUMBERS. Let's look at what the Capitalists have been up to while the Soviets were doing that.

Yes, but for Capitalism global poverty wouldn't exist. Dig up, stupid.

>>737395694
>You keep blaming communists for state capitalists wearing communism as drag. Why?

Because you're no true scotsman, that's why.

>>737395698

or the guy who built the canoe can just fucking shoot the parasite in the head and take the canoe he fucking built

>>737395634
Death to fascists!

Marx was a idiot and the labour theory of value is complete bullshit.

>>737395786
Do it. But first seize the means of production.

>>737395834

Then with him out of the way everyone who wants a canoe can tear the forest to shreds to get one.

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>>737395748
The scope of serious economic anarchism goes from the far-left anarcho-communism, to the center-left anarcho-syndicalism, to the centrist anarcho-mutualism. It is impossible to have an internally consistent right-wing anarchist ideology, as the state-based property entitlements required by capitalism is irreconcilable with anarchist rejection of hierarchy.

>>737395634
Dude, this ain't a black bloc fight, the das of violent revolution are over. You have to rid yourself of that idea. If you are truly committed, work within your community and convince those less likely to be to contemplate what a true anarchist society would look like. It really isn't all guns and mayhem. People aren't mad max tier like in movies. They'll work to help themselves and help others. This shit is not that complicated. A better existence is out there. We just have to make it.

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>>737395889
>Ayn Rand on the other hand...
>kys>>737395977

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>>737395837

Fascists so scared of our Soviet comrades they retreated west to surrender to the Brits/Americans so they didn't get shot en masse like the dogs they are.

Communists their flag over their capital

They didn't give the scientists in extermination camps cushy jobs, they liberated the camps and killed all those in charge

If the allies never invaded France, the world would be red by now.

We did it before and we'll do it again fascist scum, you will lose again.

Death to fascism

>>737396037
but muh toothrbrooosh

>>737396037
That's not what I was implying but whatever.

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>>737384728

anti-commies in this thread have only 2 correct opinions:

the past projects of communism that were internal to a capitalist state were bad

and the marxist theory of value is incorrect or at least incomplete

so lets work on those points, comrades

>>737396134
>If the allies never invaded France, the world would be red by now.

The Allies never invaded Soviet Russia either. What happened?

>>737395827
see
>>737388280
tl;dr, a "no true scotsman" occurs when you try to define a group outside of its set definition. EG, a scotsman is defined as someone born of Scottish descent, not by any traits he may possess. In this case, Communists are defined by their belief that the means of production should be publicly owned.

>>737396243

Building on your point, previous socialist states never had the oppertunity to build on the huge industrial infastructure capitalism builds.

Imagine if the revolution had taken place in America, or Germany like it should have (thanks Bernie Sanders)

>>737396278

Soviets would have occupied all of Germany and continued west to liberate and bring the revolution to France/Belgium/ect.

Soviets were also planning to assfuck Japan before US nuked.

Had the Normandy landings not happened or failed, we would be looking at a very different world right now. Same could be said of nuking japan

>>737396243
>and the marxist theory of value is incorrect or at least incomplete
It may be incomplete, but I think it is decent. I think the disconnect stems from equating COST with VALUE. For instance, a piece of bread in a famine ridden third world nation has high value, but low cost, relative to the cost of bread elsewhere, of course. A piece of bread here in the states has low value, but high cost, again, relatively. Labor increases the value of a good or service, but does not necessarily affect the cost.

>>737396279
>Communists are defined by their belief that the means of production should be publicly owned.

Right. Which characterizes the murderous Communist regimes of the 20th century. Or maybe Lenin wasn't a Communist.

So you all heard about the newly the letters between Engels and Marx, where they called people jewish niggers, workes stupid idiots and so on. They were both rich bastards and only politcal parties made heroes out of them..

>>737396324
well they had, later, most of the projects were actually about making the still feudal nations into industrial nations, USSR and China were industrialized very very fast
the problem imo isn't with the set-up, but rather the whole mode of production, if the state retains the capitalist mode of production based on competition, it will necessarily fail in its goal of transitioning towards communism

>>737396243
Dude, see
>>737395182
I'm here. But these angry bastatds providing no logic or reasoning are stealing the show arguing with capitalists who have never read Bookchin in their life.

>>737396404
>Had the Normandy landings not happened or failed, we would be looking at a very different world right now.

Well, obviously. But none of that means Soviet Communism would have survived.

>>737396452
>Which characterizes the murderous Communist regimes of the 20th century.
Yes it does. Though your perception of them as "murderous regimes" has less to do with facts and more to do with decades of anti-communist conditioning.

>>737396501
true, the whole fethisization of the working class as the solution is faulty, all people are bad and in a way capitalists are right to claim their system is a more natural one, it is, thats exactly why its bad

imo any progressive communist project in the future will have to embrace alienation,
we're past the romantcism of feuerbach's and marx's time, theory should be too

>>737396572
>Though your perception of them as "murderous regimes" has less to do with facts and more to do with decades of anti-communist conditioning.

Lol, nice save.

"Gee whiz guyz, why do you have to be so hard on the five year plans and the great leap forward and the Khmer Rouge??"

>>737386522
WTF, I love communism now !

>>737396544

Guranteed survival? No. Capitalist bloc would have a much more difficult time undermining socialist states if they didn't have the large presence that Germany/France afforded them in mainland Europe

Operation Unthinkable is a really interesting piece of "what if" history. Churchill wanted to surprise attack the Soviets in Germany because he knew the cold war was on the horizon. The Soviet war machine was fully mobilzed and operational at the time, and its unlikely they could have pushed them out of Germany before getting thrown the fuck out of Europe.

UK would not have held out against a Soviet siege, especially with communists having a fairly popular standing in the UK at the time

>>737396482
>Marx and Engels
>Rich bastards
Marx died almost in poverty, WTF are you on, nigger?

/pol
and also Stalin is cool

>>737396482
Engels was a mill owner, true. But marx was bummin it at his crib.

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>>737397065

I still think that Stalin was a paranoid sociopath who damaged the image of Socialism for a century to come, but I digress.

I fucking love Stalin

>>737396680
Have you read Badiou? He talks about that. We've been past the romanticism for a while, that died when jfk took a bullet to the head. The alienation exists and that's what we are working with. Angry people. Capitalism inherently alienates individuals. The American public directed it in the wrong place. This is the time. Theory takes effect now. The west has become a breeding ground of discontent and it's now we turn that theory into practice. Away from nationalism and towards something better.

>>737396753
Pol Pot was an opportunistic POS an definitely not a Communist. He was overthrown by Communist Vietnam and arrested 18 years later by his own Khmer Rouges.

>>737397359
yeah, but I'm anti Badiou as he's in favor of authenticity and loyalty to the event,
I think that alienation is not a property of capitalism, and should be embraced, but not the alienation of people and their labour, for Marx its the same thing, but I don't think so

>>737397359
Romanticism died when the Vietnam War ended and Reagan transformed greed into a virtue. We're now seeing the results (Trump, Faux News, Kill Bill aka Trumpcare, nihilistic alt-rightists, etc.)

>>737396279
>Communists are defined by their belief that
I would have considered practice a much more interesting discriminator.

>>737397705
You're a collaborator, Democrat. Don't go writing your own neoliberal works out of this indictment.

>>737397705
not really, romanticism is still determining part of the capitalist ideology
the consumer side is getting (experience things, live your life etc. ) while the worker/boss get the protestant part of it

>>737397792
>Democrat
Dafuq? Well at least you didn't call me a Trotskyite.

>>737398182
Don't leave the Clintons or neoliberal HeritageCare out of your calculations there, sport, or people might think you're a partisan and therefore human waste.