If there is no God then why does the universe look like it's

>>730687809
If there is a god why we dont hear him sucking Darwins Dick?

Checkm8 retard, also dubs

>>730687809
>why does the universe look like it's been fine-tuned?

it doesn't.

>>730687809
It was Allah not God

>>730687940
Yes it does.

If God isn't real, then why are oranges orange? Think that's just a coincidence, huh?

>>730687809
typical weak argument by a theist

you seem retarded

>>730688006
Weak argument? How?

>>730688000
Sarcastic Full house of truth

>>730687809
>Thinks he can tell the difference between a fine tuned universe and a sloppy one

>>730688000
The chance that a tornado sweeps through a junkyard might assemble a Boeing 747

>>730687809
ok b8 as fuck, but how is it fine tuned?
Cancer. It just pops up to kill people at random.
Actually fuck that. Viruses that exist just to reproduce and kill everything. What's the point or plan of those things?

>>730688109
Yep. It's common sense.

>>730688196
It's all a part of God's plan.

Tell me, why didn't God help my innocent friend who died for no reason while the guilty ran free? Okay. Fine. Forget the one offs. How about the countless wars declared in his name? Okay. Fine. Let's skip the random, meaningless murder for a second, shall we? How about the racist, sexist, phobia soup we've all been drowning in because of him? And I'm not just talking about Jesus. I'm talking about all organized religion. Exclusive groups created to manage control. A dealer getting people hooked on the drug of hope. His followers, nothing but addicts who want their hit of bullshit to keep their dopamine of ignorance. Addicts. Afraid to believe the truth. That there's no order. There's no power. That all religions are just metastasizing mind worms, meant to divide us so it's easier to rule us by the charlatans that wanna run us. All we are to them are paying fanboys of their poorly-written sci-fi franchise. If I don't listen to my imaginary friend, why the fuck should I listen to yours? People think their worship's some key to happiness. That's just how he owns you. Even I'm not crazy enough to believe that distortion of reality. So fuck God. He's not a good enough scapegoat for me.

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>>730688196
>b8 as fuck
>responds anyway
sage

>>730688164
>The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare.

>>730687809
If there is no life after death, and you do not see any trace of god here on earth, then it doesn't matter if god exists, right? Life after death can quite easily be debunked. You see, we can prove that all which you are, your beliefs, your personality and your memories; that which used to be called a spirit... is just neurons firing in your brain. And if you remove small parts of your brain, your personality and everything which you are will start to gradually vanish. When you have nothing left of your brain there is nothing left of you, and then it doesn't matter if it's life after death because it won't be you who experience it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMku-GbafEg&list=PLhzkHqKefAkLMF60W0mfoqDhME_jGws7_&index=22

>>730688205
I'm going to go get baptized now, I can't remain an atheist when you have arguments like that

>>730687809
An observer can only exist in a universe which allows observers. If the universe was all fucked up and shiet, we wouldn't have been able to come in existence to observe it. Ergo, all observations of the universe will observe a pretty ordered universe.

Fucking basics OP, r u even trying?

>>730688306
If we understand consciousness, then why can't we build self-aware robots?

>>730688253
>why didn't God help my innocent friend who died for no reason
God wanted to be closer to him

>>730688381
Rome wasn't built in a day, we're getting there

>>730688363
What I need to extrapolate?
Imagine a dartboard with many bullseyes. The bullseyes are the universes that could contain life. There are always many more deadspots than bullseyes.

>>730688381
We're close.

>>730688444
So you have more faith in modern hypothesis of neuroscience than God, even though science has changed it's tennets multiple times throughout history?

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>>730688264
what sort of nigger has pictures of sjws saved to their device?

>>730688381
We don't need to understand consciousness, all we need to understand is that personality is physical and in your brain.
Psychopaths, for example, who most likely will commit things that will land them in eternal damnation, actually lack in parts of their brain and you can see this difference with brain scans.
http://www.webmd.com/brain/news/20130925/brain-scans-show-why-psychopaths-dont-feel-your-pain

>>730688575
who has pictures of wannabe superpower putin?

>>730688652
Maybe they are just correlated.
Maybe the body is the temple of the soul.
That's another explanation.

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Except that the universe hasn't been fine-tuned.

Why do so few planets have life? Why can't we grow back missing limbs? Why do we die after a few days without water? Why can't we communicate with other people telepathically? These all seem like incredible oversights, if a God designed it all.

So is God like a video game designer? Does he want to give us, the players, a certain challenge? If so, why?

>>730688703
Something like 3% of planets in our galaxy are hospitable to life.
That's a ton of planets with the potential for life out there.
All the other planets could just be by-products of the process of creating life.

>>730688516
The church changed it's mind on a heliocentric universe and about Popes retiring

>>730688251
Actually cancer is often an error in DNA that causes a build up of cells. A shift in reading frame or a single point mutation in the DNA sequence is often what triggers cancer formation. Example UV light can cause cyclobutadienes in your DNA backbone which leads to the changes in DNA I just described

>>730688697
So you mean that our personality and brain here on earth is not necessarily the same as the "soul personality" god has in store? Then you still will not be the same person here on earth and in the afterlife.

>>730687809
How old are you 17,18? Life is shit. You die. You rot. You are not special.

>>730688903
Yes, but it could all have a purpose.
Maybe you are more virtuous than angels, if you have to work for your survival. Work ethic is a virtue.
In such a system, it is still the most efficient design possible.

>>730688810
>3% are potential habitable
>universe is fine tuned
Kek, it's called random chance anon, a numbers game. With the universe being over 14.5 billion years old and over 200 billion stars in our galaxy and over 200 billion galaxies in the observable universe, its just a roll of the dice to get it right

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>>730687973
The human retina begs to differ

>>730689045
Nope, UV light happens to have the right amount of energy to form the cyclobutadienes.

>>730688911
Your soul could exist in a different body, but it would have to have a brain to match for your soul to function properly.

>>730687809
What the fuck do you know about the universe? You know nothing.
Fine Tuned... get the fuck out of here.

>>730689114
The soul of people with down syndrome must sure be ugly then. Do you suggest we kill them and send them to hell?

>>730689102
Well then, it is still sufficient for God's purpose without God designing dark matter like crazy to protect us from harm.

>>730689186
> replying to a shitpost older than OP's mom
No u gtfo

It's just not. Chance.

>>730689274
just a toss of the dice
God rigged those dice for use

>>730689083
Evolution is a natural process like the cosmological process.
It could be used by God to get the sufficient designs he intended.
The eye has evovled separately 50 times. The eye is nearly destined to arise.

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>>730688810

This also makes the enormous assumption that the universe has been fine tuned to produce us: human beings.

What if the entire purpose of the Designer's universe was actually to produce the rings of Saturn? And everything else is an accidental by-product? How would you ever know?

Anyone who has mentally advanced beyond the level of a popular eight year old knows that the kid in the class who bullshits about things he has never done, but can't be proven or disproven, is not worth arguing with. Solipsism, the branch of philosophy which considers if it is possible to ever really know anything, is the same thing with an academic sheen.

>>730689226
The brain is obviously messing up their souls function, but I guess if they are resurrected their soul wouldn't nearly have the knowledge base another normal person would.

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>>730689237
>Dark matter
>protect us from harm
kek

>>730689371
God is rational, so he would have a brilliant purpose behind his creation. Maybe we will understand it someday.

>>730689434
I'm using the original term, not the specific phenomena of dark matter.

If the universe is fine tuned why did he make it so that we can ever only see less the a percent of it? Thats just a huge waste or maybe we should stop being so self centered.

>>730689414
>The brain is obviously messing up their souls function, but I guess if they are resurrected their soul wouldn't nearly have the knowledge base another normal person would.

Stare at what you just wrote for some while until you understand how retarded and brainwashed you are.

>>730689499
>God is rational
how the fuck u know

>>730689548
Explain, dark matter means one thing to most people

>>730689336
I can't exactly falsify that, but it's irrelevant to the point. The argument is that the universe appears fine tuned. The human retina is inefficient, and therefore does not look fine tuned. Evolution itself is the antithesis of fine tuned, because fine tuned means paying attention to the smallest of details and perfecting them. For a human, truly 'fine tuning' something is impossible (because we have such crappy, inefficent, not finely tuned everything), but a being of infinite power could perfect anything for the purpose they require, whatever that may be.

>>730689748
Oh well I originally meant Matter which would be undetectable and doesn't interact with oridinary forms of matter, but I suppose if you are talking about a special kind of matter that exists soley to protect us from cancer, then maybe you could detect it. Well, "strange matter" then.

>>730687809
You are fuckin stupid, either you believe in your shit god or you believe in "a universe"

>>730689988
I never said anything about special matter to protect us from cancer

>>730689845
It still looks fine-tuned even if it does not match your conception of "perfectly fine-tuned."
Maybe God has a different sense of perfection.
Like... sufficiency. It works well enough for his aims.
or Self-reliance... everything in the universe builds itself without help from God.

>>730687973
>thinks universe was made for humans by god
>humans cannot inhabit 99.999999...% of it

>>730687809

It's impossible to prove the existence of god as well as disprove it

>>730690154
Can you design a better one using certain conditions, like the forces of nature, matter/energy and space?

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>>730687809
You are so smart, OP!

>>730687809
>universe will die in billions of years
>fine tuned

hehehe sure

>>730690278
how could i possibly design a universe since we don't fully know how it functions? but since god is omnipotent, he was the one that put the rules of nature in place. stands to logic that he could make the universe 100% inhabitable for all humans, but just a tiny speck of it that will eventually be destroyed when the sun goes out

>>730690278
Are you suggesting your god isn't perfect and all knowing?

>>730689705
I would assume if he is Omniscient, he would be... rational as well?

>>730689845
>chemicals and biomatter are able to finely process images in a way we cannot reproduce in our wildest dreams except to imitate with electronics
>not fine tuned

So is it summer yet or no?

>>730690593
Depends on the universe.
One with certain conditions like.. has a beginning, goes through natural processes, etc.... then this one looks most efficient so far, until someone can come up with something better.
If you want to run up and create the matter and place it wherever you want to, then sure, you could design a more life-filled universe.

>>730690847
>we cannot reproduced something that came to be through millions of years of evolution

>that makes it finely tuned

amazing leap there

>>730690153
I mean, maybe God doesn't exist in any meaningful sense. At what point does something become self-reliant anyway? Is a star self-reliant? Was the first single cell organism self-reliant? If everything in the universe builds itself without His help, then what evidence do we have of God? Is He just the Big Bang then?
As for sufficiency, something sufficient to do a job is rarely fine-tuned to do that job. For example, you can break a rock with another rock, but it's no pickaxe or jackhammer. Something merely being sufficient, and no more, is simply not synonymous with perfection, because the word perfection is defined by humans, not God.

>>730690154
>parts of the earth can't be designed to maintain a habitat in space, they must all be habitable

pull that outta yer bum?

>>730690847
>Feeding tube is connected to breathing tube
>mucus drainage above feeding hole
>waste elimination hole is connected to sex fuild hole
>finely tuned
Kek

>>730690474
>guitar rots in 20 years
>fine tuned

>>730690890
>most efficient so far

what the fuck are you talking about nigga? are you high?

you are claiming the universe is perfect, and im telling you that a sentient creator making a universe for a specific set of beings like abrahamic dogma teaches wouldn't make it 99.999999...% of it uninhabitable to said beings

>>730687809
wow. i go away from /b for 6 months and you are still here posting with the same shit? i pity you. get a life for fuck's sake

>>730691050
what?

why is this b8 so shitty? at least make something with a semblance of an argument instead of writing nonsensical gibberish.

>>730691052

>mucus drainage above feeding hole

That is for breathing, not drainage. Take a claritin, you're gross

>>730691168
I tried to revive her.

>>730691325
But if we are fine tuned why do we need that

>>730690936
>i cannot argue with what you're saying
>I'll try to redefine finely tuned by saying crude designs were improved over millions of years and "finely tuned"
>huge leap

you are a special kind of stupid

>>730691141
I'm saying this universe might be superior in another sense... like if God is making it self-reliant, then it would be building itself more so if it has a beginning like the big bang.

>>730687809
Because it was created by man, and we're living in a computer simulation. Why else would the universe have ECC?

>>730687809
Dude, your imaginary ppl in the sky don't give you magic powers. You're going to die, alone, and it will be as if you never existed. No one will remember you or ever speak your name.

>>730691242
>i can't understand what you're saying
>that means its bait, and not that im retarded

>>730689499
Doing random shit for lulz and messing with people seems to be it.
An Almighty Being is a fucking troll if it exists

>>730691052
>everything is made to be self cleaning and multipurpose
>not efficient

>>730691445
do you know what finely tuned means you dumb fuck?

>>730691522
>you don't understand my nonsensical statement

>i win

>>730690606
He is omnipotent so he can fuck logics and efficiency any way He wants.

>>730691677
Yes

>I don't have any response so I must make this out to be a penis battle.

Yep. I'm the same person. You are dumb.

>>730691664
>having to stop breathing to eat
>Efficient

>>730691790
>believes in fantasy books with 0 logical backing or evidence

>calls me dumb

go on anon

>>730691664
Why do you use toilet paper then?

>>730691891
>making sure you don't aspirate your food
>again somehow more organs that can kill the body with a single failure is better

Good thing you don't get to design this shit.

>>730687809
It's not! Eyes are the worst designed body part ever. Sees shit upside down and our brain flips it for us. Cataracts and losing your vision over time. Cancer etc.

>>730691966
processed foods

>>730691932
Christ's message is pretty smart man.
Brilliant moral idealism and a sense of Divine Justice/Mercy.

>>730692034
Yea ok

>>730691932
>has to start a brand new argument so that his penis doesn't shrink

Your funeral

>>730687809
because it is a simulation. god is the part of you that created it and populates it.

>>730692023
I doubt that evolution is done, if it exists.

>>730692000
>not integrating feeding and breathing tubes so this isn't an issue
>solving spacial problem to make life threading problem
>finely tuned

>>730692296
>saying a bunch of crap and adding finely tuned to the end of it like he could engineer people with a pinch of euphoria and the world spacial vs millions of years development.

.5/10

>>730692023
Naw dude dangling gonads and vulnerable necks are true design flaws, eyes are dope, mine hardly work but still

>>730687809
Holy crap OP. This is a whole new level. Nobody should have this kind of power. Please stop now before you hurt yourself.

>>730688703
We don't know what percentage of the total amount of planets have life, for all we know, we could be the only planet in our corner that has life while 80% of the rest of the universe has life, we can't say. We can't grow back missing limbs but we can regenerate to an extent, regrow livers and lungs and whatnot. We can communicate telepathically, sorry you're so weak minded that you can't

>>730687809
It doesn't. The end.

>>730692604
blind people plz go.

>>730691035
I think it looks fine-tuned, but this fine-tuning is also limited by the ideal of sufficiency, and based in self-reliancy. Everything works together as part of a whole system.
Well, the brilliance of sufficiency is in it's efficiency. You can get the maximum result with minimal effort, even design effort.

I would say, where did the Big Bang come from? God's thoughts caused it.

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>>730688298
You are a faggot
Infinite anything means anything you put into your argument can and will happen
Because its fucking infinite you August
It never ends and will never end
2/10 bait made me reply

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>>730687809

>>730687809
>why does the universe look like it's been fine-tuned
It doesn't, at all. You just have a very limited understanding about how the universe works.

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>>730692555
>resulting to insults because the systems he is talking aren't finely tuned as OP suggests a fined tuned universe is a reason for an existence of a god

>>730688703
>except that I'm not living on a hermetic Terra form in the middle of a radioactive vacuum

>ITT people tear apart the phrase fine tuned because they literally have no better argument for godlessness. Yes aethism is that useless.

>>730687809
compared to which universe, that u got papers about being not fine-tuned?
>look like it is
cuz u r a dumb fuck. Why does the wind look like its so finely tuned to windmills?

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>>730688516
>what is the NEW testament
Lmao theist scum

>>730688703
You don't know shit about the universe brah. And humans do have dope powers, its very possible to use psychic abilities. Just get spiritual son

>>730692745
Explain your self.

>>730692900
>your
>self

>>730688516
>Tennets in science

What are those?

>>730692804
>not having a nickel for every retard that doesn't think they're retarded
>"as fine tuned"

>>730688253
God didn't create religion, man did.

God is not 'superman'. He is the creator.

>>730688253
bad things happen because people are fucked up. God didn't make robots, he made people with free will and some people chose badly.

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>>730691582
The fine trolled universe

if there's no god, there's no reason to be "good." If there's no god, morality is merely a social construct created by weak people to try to give them some strength over strong people. If there's no god, there is only strength, power and weakness. There is literally no reason to be "good" if theres no god. Take what you want, overpower anyone weaker than you. Take other peoples wives, take whatever food you're strong enough to take. If all you are is bone and sinew, and there is no soul, we're all fucking idiots for buying into the social contract, working our asses off to make a buck, and even submitting to arbitrary authorities like "law."

seriously, if theres no god, who gives "the police" the authority to decide how fast i should drive. Who gives them the authority to decide that it's immoral for me to fuck whatever girl i want. If I'm stronger than her, who's to say its wrong? We're no different than animals, right? are there rape police when a big buck fucks 17 doe? nope. he kicks the hsit out of the weaker bucks, then lays wood on all the bitches.

buuuuuut, as it happens, there is a God. And the fact that morality exists proves it.

>>730688196
Tbf op never said it was fine tuned to benefit humans.

>>730692993
Like Einstein's theory overtaking Newton's, only to have his own beliefs in matter usurped by quantum randomness.

>>730687809
It hasn't been fine tuned, you just have been created in it, so you can't see it as anything else than "perfectly and logically made"

>>730688516
>the scientific community makes changes to hypothesis' and theories when new evidence proves them wrong in certain areas
>religion doesn't
>this is somehow an argument in favor of religion

"Of course there's no such thing as humans. The idea of humans is so superstitious and silly. I've lived my whole life -all three days of it- in this universe (aka the pond i was born in) and I've never observed a human. There can't be humans - it's just too crazy to believe"
-Said the mayfly to the other mayfly

>>730693415
If a god knows everything, free will is merely an illusion.

>>730693996
That's the weak anthropic principle argument.
But just because lightning strikes a human, doesn't mean it is a likely event for an ordinary person.

They say it's possible life could exist in other manners, but I see no proof of this assertion.

>>730694054
wheres the part where god was proven not to exist?

>>730694176
>I can make retarded statements

That doesn't mean that

>>730694176
its quantum theory man. Time itself is an illusion.

>>730691135
>guitar requires constant maintenance and tuning to remain fine-tuned
>"god" noticeably absent from continued maintenance and "fine-tuning" of an observably entropic universe.

>>730694054
>the scientific community just changes their belief every time something new comes out
>this somehow makes them intelligent and not the biggest indian knowledge, renigging frauds out there

>>730691168
>implying it's not a bot set to post the same shit every day ad infinitum.

>>730687809

Laws of nature, /b/itch

>>730694054
this doesn't even make sense. At least among protestant and catholics, leadership meets regularly to vote on eliminating and adopting doctrines that have proven to be wrong, have invited corruption, or in response to political changes.

>>730694419
>absent because I'm not happy
>something needing continual maintenance is finer than something you can leave alone

Maybe half of you are shit and the world is self balancing.

>>730687809

If no one created aGod, why was he created so perfectly?

>>730694444
As you've so clearly demonstrated, the problem with theists is that they have a complete lack of understanding of the scientific method and critical thinking skills.

>>730694138
holy shit. this.
>checkmate athiestfags

We don't know why the universe exists, but there is no reason to believe a "god" was involved.

Perhaps it just turns out that reality has always existed just because that's the way it is and there's no further explanation.

Perhaps there are many other universe and it just so happens that this one has the right physics for life to occur. If it wasn't as "fine-tuned" as it is, then perhaps nobody would be around to observe that.

But I think tl;dr, we just have no idea, but not knowing isn't a good reason to attribute reality to a god.

>>730688050
m8 its called selection bias. If the universe was fundamentally flawed and quantumly unstable it would not exist. If certain parameters/ 'laws' were different it would operate differently in a way that may or may not allow life. In our version of the universe things are 'good enough' to work. However, the universe will eventually succumb to heat death, the atoms will decay/spatial collapse due to vacuum decay or we could be shredded by dark energy, far from ideal.

>>730694523
two greatest laws of nature
>matter cannot be created or destroyed
>all things move from order to chaos

both are completely contradictory to the bing bang theory and evolution un-guided by intelligent design.

>>730694624
the universe being observably entropic has nothing to do with me or my feelings, or even earth, or even our solar system. you fucking theists have no ability to think in broader terms than your little earth tribes and magic sky magician fiction books, do you?

>>730694294
The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, and there is no proof god is real, ergo no reason to believe.

>>730694684
by that logic, neither is it a reason to automatically dismiss the existence of a god.

>>730694697
If the universe were to die, then God would act.
Or Christ is returning before that.

>>730693657
Why in the world does "morality" have anything to do with the existence, or lack thereof, of a god?

We're a bunch of particles and fields bouncing around that happens to have formed the correct structure from which consciousness can occur.

Morality is no more real than the word "morality". And your god is no more real than the word "god".

You're just making a bunch of false assumptions and reinforcing them with more false assumptions (faith).

I highly recommend you stop believing in that nonsense and base your decisions on actual things you witness with you own senses.

>>730694813
The existence of a harmonious and orderly universe is all the proof you need.

Mother nature is god

>>730694832
Exactly, there is no proof that a god exists or does not exist.

But since the concept of a "god" is fantastical, the burden of proof is on the faithful, not the faithless.

I could just as easily say the universe is inside a giant alien's mouth.

Also, if you really think god is real then who created god? And if god has always been here then why couldn't the universe or multiverse have always been here as well.

Believing in a god makes no sense. We can use science to learn about the world, so we no longer need to make up fiction when trying to understand reality.

>>730688405
Gods a dictator cunt who wishes death to gays, stones people that dare to question his unproven existence or happened to be born into the worng religion that preaches the same shit and will burn you for eternity for the slightest transgression, while simultaneously torturing the human race in some bizarre character building exercise so that his predetermined chosen may come back for a never ending torment life of 'perfect bliss', while everyone else who was made flawed and set up to fail is punished for it. Yeah, thanks but no thanks, you can keep your version of the invisible man in the sky that talks to you in dreams. Even if God was proven to exist he wouldn't deserve worship.

>>730694632
>accepting every new thing until the next new thing

Coattail riding fence sitter in shit covered denial identified

>>730694813
pascal's wager alone is reason enough to believe.
>if god exists and you believe you get eternity in paradise
>if god doesn't exist, and you believe, you wind up decomposing into nitrogen and carbon
>if god exists and you don't believe, you spend eternity in hell
>if god doesn't exist and you don't believe, you end up decomposing into nitrogen and carbon

There's no risk in believing. There's great risk in not believing.

also anyone who uses the term "ergo" is a faggot. ergo, you're a faggot.

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"fine-tune"ers BTFO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R97IHcuyWI0&t=82s

>>730687809
Wtf does that even mean?

>>730694753
>but somehow I know he is absent more than you know he is there

and round and round

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>>730687809
ech.... 50 posters... more and more newfags on /b/

>>730695077
"“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you” - Heisenberg

>>730694870
in that case, you sound like a wimpy cuck faggot so I'm going to come over to your house, fuck your mom (since you don't have a gf), steal your car if its worth anything and take a dump in your toilet. Because, you know, we're just bone an sinew. try and stop me.

>threads both for, and against belief...all end up being against

>must be supremely intelligent beings on b that only visit religion threads

soft kek

>>730695169
>2017
>still thinking pascal's wager is a good argument

That wager doesn't take into account every other religion. Nor does it take into account the fact that most religions have jealous gods who promise an unpleasant afterlife to all who disbelieve or don't follow their tenets. Would a jealous god punish you more for lacking belief in any god or actively blaspheming and worshipping a false god your whole life?

Considering these facts, and that all religions can't all be right, and that there's no way to know which of them - if any - are right, then by sheer probability we can ALL expect to have a shit afterlife if there is such a thing.

Again, religions can't all be right. But you can all be wrong...

>>730695169
The risk in believing is that you make all your decisions around the fantasy that a god exists.

Why would a living god send people to a torture chamber forever? What's more likely, that all the irrationalities of the bible somehow make sense..or that the bible just isn't true at all and was written by men?

Either god doesn't exist or the bible is wrong. A loving god wouldn't create people knowing they are destined for eternal torture which is all hell is.

All this "god's plan" and "lord works in mysterious ways" is just the Christian's response when somebody points out the bible makes no sense.

Why not simply follow the golden rule and then live your life as your own. You don't need all that crazy, irrational nonsense.

It was put in place to keep the peasantry under control; we have science and logic now that actually makes things better.

Science got you the phone or computer you're using right now, not religion.

Science got you modern sanitation leading to increased longevity, not religion.

Religion gets you the crusades. Religion gets you ISIS. Religion is a social virus that needs to be eradicated worse than cancer.

>things are getting too real. someone whip out pascals wager, burden of proof, and a bunch of those conversation fallacies. gonna light this thread up right

>>730695169
Pascal's wager is a genius work of art, except it fails to take into account the literal thousands of other gods humanity has believed in over the years. What if there is a god, but he absolutely hates every false god (including smthe christian god), and believing in a single one of them results in having to watch endless reruns of The Big Bang Theory? What if there is a god who sends you to hell for believing in things without evidence (eg every religious person ever)?

Epicurus was a far better philosopher than Pascal.

>>730695471
>why would I assume exactly what your beliefs are before you even tell me unless it makes it easier to argue?

If the universe is fine-tuned why did god create heaven?

>>730695232
We don't know there is no god, we simply see no reason to believe in one. Learn the difference between agnostic atheists and gnostic atheists.

>>730688253
>edgy Mr.Robot pasta gr8 i r8 8/8

ps: pascal was retarded

like you have nothing to lose if you decide to base your worldview on a magic sugar-daddy

>>730695561
>why would you assume a christian follows the rulebook of christianity?

>>730695209
1. Other potential life - > "We just don't know. Maybe we could survive off of a blackhole." Okay pal, sure. This is an argument from ignorance. You claim there are more potential forms of life other than carbon-based that could organize themselves into sentient beings. Prove it.
2. Rhetoric. We used the parameters to determine the exact cosmological constant.
3. No evidence of a multiverse. Occam's razor.
4. The design is sufficient, efficient and effective. Byproducts(Lifeless planets) are part of the most rational design possible, there is no superior design as far as we can tell so far.
5. God works in mysterious ways.

>>730695471
actually religion gave us science but now it is no longer required (im a gnostic atheist)
transcendent god and world as created was required both for the conceptual and practical framework of early science

>>730688381
Great question, research about neural networks, we're actually the closest we've ever been

>>730695824
(not the same person) Silicon-based life is a possibility, although the ways it could be structured would be more limited than carbon.

Saged :3

>>730688381
we don't fully understand sentience and sapience, but we know enough that we know it can be known, and the methodology of acquiring this knowledge
but its not magic, so it takes work, and time

>>730695742
Because you choose to be so damn uniformed that you think in those very basic ways and then bring your argument to the table like you are some learned special thing. This is exactly what is wrong with a belief that encourages you to disregard everything you don't agree with.

It produces generalizing morons

>>730695937
>I'm a snowflake

>>730696055
underrated

>>730688381
we can. its a bad fucking idea

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>>730694870
>so euphoric

>>730695824
1. He never said we or anything else could survive in a black hole. He said that under different universal laws, life may exist, only in very different ways. As he said, they would be very strange and science-fictiony, but you're changing the parameters of the universe; of course the results are going to sound like they come from a science fiction novel. Listen next time.

2. Are you retarded? A god wouldn't need to fine-tune anything, so the whole fine-tuning argument is pointless for theists at best. Maybe you just lacked the intellectual capacity to understand it.

3. The multiverse, as he said, is a prediction of other theories we already have and which are themselves very elegant and with a lot of supporting evidence. There doesn't have to be evidence for it yet for it to be a viable possibility to prove that "god" is an unnecessary idea.

4. Utter nonsense. What is efficient about a process which takes 14 billion years to finally end up with intelligent life one only one known planet so far with the vast majority of the universe it's in completely inhospitable to life as we know it?

5. lol the all-encompassing cop-out. As he said at the end, it's easy to come up with ex post facto justifications for it all because theism is so poorly defined. That's what you'd call a bug, not a feature.

>>730696528
wow. whoa. the fuck is all this

>>730695937
>transcendent god and world as created was required both for the conceptual and practical framework of early science

Nope, just the thought of logical concepts preceding physical forms. No gods necessary.

>>730695966
I am interested by neural networks, but I think it is also possible that in our search for knowledge, we uncover a different pattern for awareness than what we expected.
It could be that the neural correlation with awareness is mysteriously organized geographically in grey matter, which would make it impossible to be reproduced in an artificially produced system.

>>730696618
They're words, anon. Do they frighten you?

>>730695966
>>730696644
We can map bloodflow through a persons brain and generally tell you what they're thinking about. Just so you two know.

tldr- it is actually well "mapped"

>>730696811
Insanely

>>730694633
>I'm a 14-year-old Christian and this is deep

All posts above this fell for the bait. This shit is cancer and you are all a part of the tumor.

>>730695317
>>730696488
poor lil chrustcuckies don't have an actual rebuttal

>>730697096
lel

>>730696528
1. Has to redefine what we know as life to claim that we could survive off of blackbody radiation. I don't believe those concepts hold up. Prove your claim there could be other potential forms of life "as we know it" with our natural laws.
2. Wouldn't have to, but wants to design a self-reliant system. Has to fine-tune them for there to be a working order.
3. Zero supporting evidence.
4. It couldn't be done any better as far as we know. With our knowledge base my argument is superior.
5. Or theism is difficult to comprehend and that's why there are many takes on it.

>>730697115
>merely pretending not to restart it

>>730695271
"Putting something in quotations with some irrelevant authority's name will make it seem brilliant, regardless of how vacuous or nonsensical it may be." -Nicholas Cage

>>730697204
"nothing is always completely true or false, if said aloud"

- a fact

>>730691325
nigga you duuuumb
You're producing mucus every single hour of your day, when you need to blow your nose its because you produced mucos in excess and can't drain it properly (a.k.a swallow it)

>>730697115
OP is bait, but there are billions of people who think like that, and at least some of them browse /b/ for sure. When arguing in public the goal is always to convince not you opponent, but the audience.

Because I have ocd, I wanted shit a certain way and so it became that way.

>>730697373
That's why the house always wins. By the time they realize they are stupider than shit they will be waaaaaaaaaay down the food chain.

>>730697132
1. Literally what theists are doing in the first place. Trying to assert that under different universal constants life couldn't exist is asinine garbage. Life is weakly defined in the first place. You honestly think you know it couldn't exist under different constants?

2. Again, he doesn't have to do anything to make it any way he wants. If god wanted to make us all sentient cheese cubes, he could. The point he made there, which you seem incapable of understanding, is that only under a naturalistic model of reality would anything *need* to be fine-tuned for conscious life to arise. Also, you're going back to those ex post facto justifications again...

3. Uh huh, just like your god. Except the multiverse actually has well-substantied theories to back it up.

4. Back to pound 2 autismo.

5. Using an ex post facto justification for using ex post facto justifications. You can't make this shit up...

>>730697521
apply burn cream directly to ass

>>730697697
>lel so mad!

>>730697521
1. It's not difficult to see that without the proper amounts of carbon or that if stars didn't burn fuel that there would be no life as we know it.
2. I have deeper theories involving why God would create a universe, but it gets into metaphysics and mysticism.
3. Mathematicaly sound* theories. Big deal.
4. Trying to argue it is not "fine-tuned" enough when there is still the curious data of being fine tuned.
5. I see no valid reason why God and science can not co-exist.

>>730698124
theres your answer. there are tons of invalid reasons though.

>>730698124
1. "as we know it". Ah, are you finally starting to see the fucking point?

2. I didn't mention why god would create a universe in the first place, and I'm not interested in reading your babby's first philosophy about that. We're talking about "fine-tuning" and that fact that a true god wouldn't need to fine-tune anything for conscious life to exist.

3. They're not just mathematically sound, ass burger, they're also empirically verified. Ever heard of Quantum Field Theory? Rhetorical question; I know you haven't.

4. Again, back to point 2, autismo.

5. No one's saying there can't be a god. We're saying there's no good reason to believe in one. And god as a stand-alone concept isn't the same as religion. Science and a god may or may not be opposed, but science and religion definitely are.

>>730698369
too bad simply understanding something doesnt cure anything. back to our regularly scheduled arguing?

>>730698455
>wahhh

>>730689499
You know... Rational is subjective...
The autism levels in this thread give me a headache.

>>730698627
but you don't understand. everyone understands everything and no one is stupid.

one of us. one of us

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>>730687809
David Hume's Objections to the Teleological Argument are only one very convincing treatise among countless others. Yours is a common stated, but unsound argument. <http://www.mesacc.edu/~barsp59601/text/244/notes/unit2/hume.html>
TLDR? Eat shit faggot.

>>730698455
1. Yes, plasma sentient beings perhaps? Or what? I'm still not seeing good examples of other life.
2. Exactly, doesn't need to UNLESS he has good reason to.
3. I know of quantum field theory, what does that have to do with a multiverse popularly espoused from string theory?
4. Arguing semantics to avoid losing the argument.
5. Inductive reasoning(pattern recognition). Empirical philosophy is based upon inductive reasoning. How is Christ incompatible with science?

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>>730698556
It's ok to be upset, anon.

>>730698627
Rational as in superior argumentation? No, it is an absolute truth.

>>730695169
pascal's wager is bullshit too. belief and wagering are hardly analogous. wagering is a choice. you can't just choose to believe in unicorns anymore than you can choose to believe in god.

you guys take philosophy of religion 101 at community college and suddenly think you're hot shit.

>>730698935
1. That's the point. We can't see examples of life in other universes, so anyone who tells you it can't exist in different forms there is a fucking charlatan.

2. lol the point goes over your head again. The only reason a god would NEED to fine-tune anything is if he was bound by some greater force into keeping his creations restricted to certain rules, which a problem an omnipotent god wouldn't have. He'd be making a round peg to fit into a pre-existing round hole. Well, who made the hole?

3. The multiverse is a prediction primarily of Quantum Field Theory, anon...

4. >semantics
Do you know what that word even means? You mentioned fine-tuning and I referred you back to the point he made and that I've tried in vain to get through to you multiple times now: that a god wouldn't need to fine-tune anything. There are no "semantics" involved, dumbass.

5. Because science is based on critical thought and empiricism. Religion (including muh Christ) is based on anecdotal evidence, unfalsifiable personal experience, and blind faith. If you believe in both, you're being intellectually dishonest.

>>730690153
Think about what you just said.

>Self-reliance... everything in the universe builds itself without help from God.

So why was there need for it in the first place?

>>730689083
lol. cool diagram. religion and science are fundamentally exclusive from each other and should be. please stop playing with our toys.

>>730692838
god disproved again

>>730687809
MUP DA DOO DIDDA PO MO GUB BIDDA BE DAT TUM MUHFUGEN BIX NOOD COF BIN DUB HO MUHFUGGA

>>730699393
1. "There MIGHT be other forms of life. We just don't know." - > "I don't know of any other potential forms of life that would work, therefore so far you are winning the argument until I strengthen my case. "
2. To produce a self-reliant system efficiently, it would have to fit together properly with no superfluous parts.
3. Quantum field theory describes subatomic particles. Maybe an off-shoot of it does imply a multiverse.
4. I think you are the one who misapprehends the creation of a universe here. Are you arguing that God could just create a single solar system that exists forever? That is why I would have to bring up metaphysics.
5. Christ's message is the work of an omniscient mind.

>>730699493
It looks designed.

>>730687809
(They) want you to believe it's fine-tuned, so (they) can control your thoughts. Same as with the flat earth, (they) don't want you to know the truth. The real universe (they) don't tell us about is complete uncomprehensible chaos, with the flat earth swimming on it.

>>730691484
Do you honestly think that more matter is getting created? The universe expanding means distance and the amount of space that it takes up, not more matter

>>730692079
Christ doesn't talk about the creation of the universe at all in the gospels

Because accidents happen, your existence being one of them.

>>730700209
What about it looks designed? You need to leave the concept that everything needs some sort of creator behind. This is only a concept because of what man has done. Man build devices and tools so God must of created the universe holds no actual value as it's an assuption

>>730700295
No I don't. That's not what I meant.
If God is designing a self-reliant system, then a universe that builds itself from bottom to top is superior to one with more habitable planets created suddenly.

>>730700587
The purposefulness and fine-tuning of it.

>>730700708
What makes you think that either are more or less superior

>>730700763
What about it is fine tuned

>>730700855
The parameters. If you change them a little bit by a few percent, or even less than that in some cases, then life as we know it could not exist.

>>730700983
What parameters? Of earth? Stop being so vague

>>730700009
why is wind so finelly tuned to windmills, bitch?

>>730700983
>>730701143

>>730701046
No, the strong/electromagnetic/gravitational force and cosmological constant.
There is also the case of the universe beginning in a low-entropy state due to inflation. According to the law of thermodynamics it should have produced many blackholes which would consume all relevant order, but instead it was evenly spread out as a uniform gas.

>>730701143
Windmills are finely tuned to wind.
Poor example.

Weak anthropic principle doesn't resolve the improbability.

>>730701173
That's not a perfect balance at all, that's the process of hearing down matter and recreating it which is a chaotic system. Of it were planned, we wouldn't have odd ball planets drifting off in the middle of space due to this creation

>>730700009
1. "Life can only exist this one specific way we can see!" "We've never seen any other ways to verify but fuck you!"

2. "Superfluous parts" like all the extra matter and space that comprises our universe which is completely inhospitable to life as we know it and existed for billions of years before life came around? Yeah, none of that's superfluous...

3. No, the multiverse is an ultimate prediction of the theory, not some "offshoot". You really have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, do you?

4. Yep, he could. Because, at least according to you, he's omnipotent. Bring as much horseshit rhetoric as you want, you'll never shut down that point.

5. Prove it.

You all could be doing something better with your time instead of arguing semantics. Whether or not God exists and whether or not you believe it either way are entirely irrelevant. Instead of wasting time bickering over the matter, why not get out and do something worthwhile and possibly make the world a tiny bit better (which arguing over this does not)? And before you retort, I worked all night and am posting this minutes before falling asleep because /b is my nightcap.

>>730687809

I know you're trolling but there are many religious people who believe this argument so I'll answer it. Try living anywhere else besides earth and tell us how "fine tuned" it is for life. 99.9999% of the universe is fine tuned AGAINST the existence and survival of consciousness. Hell, vast portions of our own planet are either too hot or too cold, too wet or too dry, etc.

Some things appear to be fined tuned for life, while many other things do not -- basically exactly what you would expect to find in a universe without God.

>>730701351
OH, RLY? ITS AS IF ALL LFIE IS FINELY TUNED TO ITS ENVIRONMENT, NOT ENVIRONMENT TO LIFE

>>730701351
And humans are finely tuned to the Earth and universe, not the other way around...

>>730687809
Just out of curiosity, do you always post God questions, with this image? Deja Vu cubed.

>>730687809
Because your perception is developed by evolution just to get this notion.

>>730701505
ITS LIKE EVOLUTION - THE CHANGE LOVER TIME - LONG, LONG TIME, MAKES LIFE COMPATIBLE ONLY WITH THAT NICHE! THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE JUST BUILDS UP ON WHAT ALREADY EXISTED, INSTEAD OF HAVING BEEN MADE IN ITS COMPLEXITY ALL AT ONCE

>>730701770
OVER*

>>730701443
1. Life as we know it was fine-tuned. Other forms of life? Like what? You shouldn't make unsubstantiated claims. Why do you think this is a winning argument? As far as we can tell carbon based life is the only kind of life that can produce brains necessary for sentient beings.
2. Byproducts of an essential process.
3. According to who?
4. Yes he could, but he didn't want to.
5. Inductive reasoning. If you try to analyze morality or divine justice with a God, then Christ's message is what you come up with.

>>730687809
if there is a god who is all loving etc then why do newborn children get leukaemia? why do little girls get raped? why is that part of his plan and what purpose does it serve?

>>730687809
>If there is no God then why does the universe look like it's been fine-tuned?

Because it's a simulation.

>>730701505
Lightning just struck someone.
Must be very likely.

>>730702175
dont u know? They get leukaemia, cuz theyve got free will

>>730687809

how come branches of apple trees are located right at the top of apples providing them with the exact amount of nutrients?

you are looking at the universe from the point of view of someone who benefits from how the universe is set. someone who have the luck of even existing.

how the 'furlicks' from the planet ub22 located at 3 km from the sun see the universe? well, they don't because they don't exist. they can't exist. so for them the universe isn't so fine tuned, is it?

>>730702231
HAVE U EVER BEEN TO EARTH? HAVE U EVER COUNTED HOW MANY TIMES A LIGHTNING STIKES EARTH? HAVE U BEEN TO THE EARLY EARTH, WHERE CONDITION WERE DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT, THEN NOW? ITS INFINITELY MORE LIKELY A LIGHTNING PROVIDED ENERGY FOR CHEMICAL REACTION, THAN THAT GOD DID IT AND ITS THE GOD OF THE BIBLE. ALSO, THERE R PAPERS WRITTEN ON SPONTANEOUS LIFE FORMING OUT OF RUDIMENTARY COMPOUNDS.
FUCKIN RETARD

>>730702439
A rare universe that has the semblance of a rational design?
Must be Chaos behind it all.
I don't recognize enough order here.

Abiogenesis?
No one has solved the problem of chirality.

atheists are fellow cult religioners kiddo

>>730702053
1. >You shouldn't make unsubstantiated claims.
Yes, like the argument that life can't exist under different universal constants. I'll get this through to you eventually, dumb dumb.

2. A) How do you know that? Answer: you don't, charlatan.
B) For the umpteenth time, it's not essential for god to fine-tune anything. He's omnipotent, right? So he can do what the fuck he wants, moron.

3. Physicists...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzKWfw68M5U

4. How do you know, charlatan bitch.

5. Horse shit. Again, prove it.

>>730702644
see >>730695209

>>730702644
chirality isnt a problem.

>semblance of rational design
>>730701143 >>730701505 >>730701770

>>730694869
Hahhahahahahahha, ur a fucking retard

How else would it look?

>>730702685
1. Oh could it? Yes. We can imagine a few. Although I doubt in other forms of life. As far as we can see, there are no other forms of sentient life. My argument is still superior from our knowledge base. Why do you believe there are all these other forms of life when you can't even conceptualize one? You act as if will always find a way to adapt. This is silly.
2. Don't think you even know what you are trying to claim anymore. God didn't want to build a universe with a ton of life, he wanted to build a self-reliant system with life.
3. Okay?
4. If God is writing the laws of physics... he can do whatever he wants...
5. That would require an eon of explanation.

>>730703331
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe

>>730702853
Yes it is, as far as I know. They still haven't solved it besides offering the weak idea that it was the stability of single entantiomers over the course of eons... in which case the odds are so slim we'd never know for certain.

>>730703855
its not a poblem and u know too little to make any claims

>>730703335
1. lol you're still not understanding. YOUR argument goes entirely against our knowledge base since it relies on information completely outside of it. Will you ever get this?

2. Assumption 1: god exists. Assumption 2: knowing what god wants. That on top of claiming this was the only way an OMNIPOTENT being could create something. You're defeating your own arguments, dumbass.

3. Okay good.

4. The fucking irony. You know you just admitted to my point, right? Can't tell if stupid...

5. Or you're without the capacity to give a cogent argument in favor of your beliefs, which your performance so far would suggest...

>>730689499
prove it

>>730687809
>277 replies
fucking newfags

>>730703973
1. As far as we know, there is only one form of life that produces sentient beings... difficult to grasp... I know...
2. Not the only way... the way he wanted to.
4. I think you are deeply confused. What exactly are you trying to argue, extrapolate. That God doesn't need to fine-tune a universe to create life? He doesn't... but he wants to.
5. Let's assume there is a Benevolent God, who allows evil. This corrupts his will. The only way to purify himself is to make an apt sacrifice, the Logos, which restores his former purity(because justice restores the original order of a system)

>>730687809
Because that's what natural selection is, you fucking retard.

God doesn't exist, you fags. Evolution is the word that are you looking for.

>>730688050

Think of it this way:

A child considers that any one of millions of permutations of their parents DNA could have been born instead of them, and then considers how incredible the odds of their specific parents finding each other instead of anyone else were, and they say to themselves, "The odds of me being born were impossible!"

It's the same illusion that makes the universe seem intelligently structured.

"How is any of this possible without someone planning it?"

In both cases, something arising from infinite possibilities seems impossible without a driving force.

>>730704839
Yes, but if the chances are infinitesimal... of say... surviving a deadly attack... you wouldn't take the chance.
Inductive reasoning still makes its case.

>>730705108
its as if your primitive, fuckin survival instinct will latch on to any bullshit, that says u wont die.
>theres infinitesimal chance of surviving a deadly attack, but if u chew this piece of shit from this living saint, ull survive 100%. And the deadly attack will come, u cant back out

>>730705628
You do realize inductive reasoning, though flawed, is still powerful, right?
I'm more right than wrong. I'm just being rational.

>>730705863
u do realize it has no merit here, right?
>its flawed
and u r residing firmly in the flaw. Doesnt matter how good the reasoning is, if u r constantly using it wrong
wtf is it u r reasoning here?

>>730706127
You realize you believe in the consistency of the laws of nature due to inductive reasoning?
Measurement doesn't have magic power over the reasoning process.

>>730687809
>fine-tuned
ok
then what does a poorly tuned universe look like?

>>730706237
u realize god doesnt exist?

>>730692694
that is not how infinites work
say you flip a coin. you get tails 3 times in a row. What are your odds of getting heads on the next coin toss? 1/2 always.
there is a possibility of an infinite coin toss where every time it lands on tails

>>730706310

- >

>>730703560

Here's a hint. Yagen.

>>730687809
This is your worse one yet.

I don't fucking believe you finally baited me in. Fuck.

>>730704457
1. In this universe, yes. And yet you claim it can't happen in other universes with entirely different parameters. Charlatan.

2. Begging the question.

4. lol you're ridiculous. "Look how fine-tuned everything looks! That must mean an intelligent and all-powerful god made everything" "But an all-powerful god wouldn't need to fine-tune anything..." "...B-but he wanted to!" You're doing exactly what Sean mentioned, coming up with ex post facto justifications for your weakly-defined god doing what I've pointed out goes against your arguments in favor of his existence and necessity.

5. lol God sent himself to die as a sacrifice to himself to save us from the punishment which he himself would condemn us to for acting on the flaws which he himself designed us with because of rules which he himself put in place.

I'm starting to think theists really do suffer intellectual incapacity.

>>730687809
Most logic argument:
If it wouldn't be that "perfect" (=bring up something thinking like humans) we wouldn't be there to ask this question.
We know hundreds of thousands of planets that are either too hot, too cold, or too radioactive to live. Our planet is one of many billion planets. We were just lucky.

>>730706635
this is the most retarded thing I've ever read. If there are other universes there is no accounting for the laws that govern them. They could be completely foreign to us where mathematics cannot explain their laws. there could be a world of sentient tacos for all we know.

>>730706635

- >

>>730695209

>>730687809
The universe randomly rolled a full luck roll.

>>730706391
1. What other forms of life? Prove it with a concept like the theists have proven that other universes with slightly altered laws of physics wouldn't produce life.
4. It's just how we learn to argue man. Can't admit it's rational if it's based on a counter-argument?
5. Yep. It's logical and if there is a God, which is likely, certainly gives Christ credence.

>>730707442
u r tagging a wrong anon

if there was a god, it wouldve been Zeus, which brings no credence to "christ"

>>730707293
Well, it is true, the argument is based upon the natural laws of this universe.... but... what laws are you trying to conceieve of? Getting creative with universes leads one to inventing more purposeful matter, which would look intentionally designed...

OP here
gtg

>>730707646
when we look at a cloud we see animals and other figures that simply arent there. We look for patterns by nature and try to make sense of them. applying order to chaos. It's natural that any animal will try to make sense of what it sees.

>>730707442
I'm gonna assume you replied to the wrong guy.

1. Life in other universes. You're the one claiming life can't happen any other way, and yet you have no way of knowing that. The burden of proof lies on you.

2. Thanks for conceding.

4. It's not how we rationally argue. If something is both poorly-defined and unfalsifiable, any fool such as yourself can come up with any justification they like for flaws in your arguments. Coming up with weak justifications like that which can infinitely move the goalpost and ignore logic isn't the same as legitimate refutation.

5. lol everything about this sentence is wrong. You think you can just say that shit and have it pass? It isn't logical at all, you haven't proven a god, and if there were a god there isn't any good reason to believe Christianity is true.

>>730707646
So you admit we could engineer a universe better suited to life than this one...

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personally I have a faith. But i don't believe in a great creator. Or any being that governs man. I feel that there is a soul but the body also contains it's own consiousness. So when you die a part of you is indeed lost forever.