Taxation is theft. Prove me wrong.

it's not because you can leave.
if you were forced to stay then you'd be right.

>>729524977

>tipping is theft
>having to pay for things is theft
>me dying is murder
>meat is murder
>owning pets is slavery
>cigarettes being legal is murder
>alcohol being legal is murder
>me having to sleep is robbery of my time
>me needing food is entrapment
>having sexual urges is rape

>>729525290
If there was a band of thiefs terrorising your neighborhood, it would be illegal no matter if they let you leave or not.

>>729525356
Those are different because you can choose not to do those things (smoke, drink), concern pets or are just unrelated and retarded.

>>729524977
No. I enjoy my parks that are nicely maintain even if I rarely venture there. I also enjoy my streets relatively garbage free.
>My state is tip tier in all fields
>If NYC or Cali that'd probably change

>>729525449
false equivalency.

unless the band of thieves made it known before I moved in they'd be coming around regularly and told me what would and wouldn't be taken.

>>729525558
>implying none of these could be done better and cheaper by private enterprise
Think about it.

>>729525660
They'd go "you pay 10% of what you earn or else we break in and thake it ourselves"
You know, like the government.

go ahead and refuse to pay your taxes OP see how quickly you end up in the same place as thieves

>>729525551

You can choose to buy a boat and fuck off to a remote island. There are costs with living in a society. No taxes, no nothing. Government exists because humans are not moral or pure enough for an anarchocapitalist system to work.

What you're advocating is the movie Mad Max.

>>729525823
Not an argument.

>>729525356
>fapping is genocide

>>729525815
then it's not theft. if I move in I have agreed to those terms.

>>729525975
like i said try not paying your taxes

the world would be much less comfortable without taxes

>>729525919
There will be no corporations nor any people on said island because the imperialistic countries of the discovery era made sure to grab every piece of land there is. There is no escape like you're describing.

>>729526071
>the government will beat you into submition if you don't pay them money so that makes taxes good
Do you not see a flaw in your logic?

>>729526138

Oh damn looks like you gotta join the rest of society then. Gingersnaps.

fact a privately owned police force would be wholly above the law

what do you think pays for a police force that isnt?

Property is theft

Why is someone to entitelted to own land, just because he was born before me, and gave some paper sheets to a now dead person?

it's the same logic

taxation would be theft if you get nothing in return. but you do. from parks to schools to roads to literally thousand of things you take for granted.

>>729526235
no they will jail you for trying to live in their society for free

>>729526284
Kek

>>729526043
So what you're saying is it's okay to do that? Yet it's illegal to do so because the government wants to have a monopoly.
If I organise some strong men and start asking for money it'd be illegal wouldn't it?

>>729526043
except you are born into it and are obliged to pay taxes before you are even able to think about it

>>729526284
>you can just leave
>no I can't, here's proof
>oh damn my argument just fell apart. Gingersnaps
Just because you're on welfre hogging my hard labor doesn't mean I want to be a part of this deal.

>>729526563
What are you giving in return? Safety? You already get that with taxes

>>729526683
>babies pay taxes
In what world anon? It's literally illegal for someone to live by themselves at that age.

>>729526563
assuming this is occurring in a vacuum and not inside the boundaries of any larger government institution, sure set up your government and see if people want to move in.

>>729526744
>assumptions
>speculations
>assertions
That's all you got anon

>>729524977
I remember being 16 and reading Ayn Rand for the first time too, Anon. It gets better.

>>729526683
>implying nonincome earning children pay income taxes

>>729525725
So who pays the private enterprises to maintain that shit? Do you pay taxes to them then instead of the government?

>>729526744

life is so tough

>>729526827
start with kids paying sales tax. technically not their money but w/e

>>729527042
Yeah where do they get that income from?

>>729527042
>technically not their money but w/e
You won't have any strong arguments with that attitide. It's their parents' money.

>>729527042
sales tax are not theft. you agree to them by purchasing in the public market

>>729525725

Depending on which country you're in:
They are also done by private enterprises paid for by the government.

Taxation is not theft.
Everybody goes outside and walks on a sidewalk, pushing a button to cross the road in a green light without getting run over. Everybody gets police and army protection. Everybody gets welfare and healthcare if you get sick (in normal countries at least).

You have no choice then to participate in these things. Otherwise you would be unable to live like you do.
You have a choice in not using these services. And that is by leaving.

>>729527185
Not doing so is illegal dumbass. You will be beaten and thrown into a prison if you refuse, that's not freedom.

>>729527343
And you have the freedom to pick mushrooms in the forest for food. You don't HAVE to buy anything

>>729527314
>And that is by leaving
Where? neo-communist europe?
Oh let me guess, Somalia.
Socialism is being pushed around the world so that there is no escape. All countries that would otherwise be worth it are long gone.

>>729527433
Not him, not even retarded.
Mushrooms have very little nutrition. You'd have to eat literal tonnes to survive on a pure mushroom diet.
t. PhD in fungology

>>729527518
are you one of these people who think going to mars would be a dandy idea?

>>729527654
What's wrong with going to mars?

>>729527152
and you are just reiterating
>>729527185
yes, and my point is kids agree to it before they can even ask the question "is it theft?". well, we just established its not their money so, lets move on.

basically its you come of age and you agree to the terms or gfto. or go into politics and get yourself a slice of it and leech of it

>>729527637
I don't care about the nutritional value, just that OP can gather food instead of buying it

>>729527725
radiation
no atmosphere
no magnetic field
teraforming would be a long and expensive process that may not even work

>>729527940
there are barely any people so thats a plus imho

>>729527821
What do you suggest we do? Ban procreation?
Clearly a lot of people like taxes, more so then the folk that don't. We have to raise them in a taxed society since that's where we live.
It is what you describe, you either agree or you gtfo. Nobody is stopping you.

>>729527518

I'm saying is you do have a choice. You not liking that choice doesn't make it non-existant.

You CAN avoid paying taxes legally by moving. So you have a choice. So taxes are not theft.

I guess you like paying taxes more then living in a shithole.

>>729527863
or grow it, or trade or buy privately.

>>729528004
>barely any people

yes because it would be a living hell the most frightening part is we are running out of room on earth so we have to figure out something

>>729528082
>You CAN avoid paying taxes legally by moving.
Again, to where. Point me to A place.
Protip: you can't
There isn't a single country that hasn't been invaded, is a dictatorship or isn't a shithole.

>>729524977
how is this not communism?
Dont want to pay taxes?
go live in the woods in a commune you dirty hippy

United Arab Emirates
Oman
Bahrain
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Kuwait
Bermuda
Cayman Islands
The Bahamas
Brunei
There you go OP, these places won't tax you

>>729528024
> a lot of people like taxes

so then why not make it voluntary?

>>729527940
>radiation
Closed buildings
>no atmosphere
Closed buildings
>no magnetic field
Oh no compasses don't work, it's not like we have GPS or something
>teraforming would be a long and expensive process
It'll be long-term profitable so coroprations will be more then happy to do so
>may not even work
Post proof.

>>729528326
its not fair that some pay in while others do not but all get the same services

>>729528326
Why don't you run for office then and see how many people agree with you

>>729524977
Taxation is voluntary, it just has consequences.

>>729528397
the magnetic field does a lot more than direct compasses

>>729528405
then what did you mean by a lot of people?
then why not deny benefits to those who didn't pay?

>>729525725
No they wouls not. Privateers always want to maximize profits. They would keep the money for themselves deliver a half assed job and would not pay their workers well enough.
all in all i would give neo liberalism a 0/10

>>729528293
>mudslime infested shitholes
Made me think. I asked for places I can go to that aren't dictatorships, have or are being invaded or aren't shitholes.

>>729528427
I'm seriously trying to understand why people have a problem with letting people be free and voluntary cooperate with one another. So far I am getting emotional drivel

>>729528586
In a bubble maybe, but we have this thing called competition. Someone else would deliver a better job and we'd just use their things.

>>729528581
so you would not pay taxes and then not have the right to call the police when you are being robbed?

>>729528653
UAE = shithole

kek

>>729528685
So cry more about it then

>>729528685
WE JUST TOLD YOU RETARD
One could just be rich, choose to stop paying taxes, then when they lose everything say they'll pay from now on and sign up for welfre.
You either get the full package or move, it's called equality.

>>729528831
>United Arab Emirates
>Arab
There's your answer.

>>729528786
Sounds fine to me. Police never arrive on time to assist in emergencies anyways. Rather spend my money on a security system, gun, and training than on a pig that gives me tickets for going 10 over the speed limit

>>729528831
>Defending mudslimes
I hate newfags

>>729529012
>Police never arrive on time to assist in emergencies anyways
Ameriflaps in action

>>729528214

Wilderness of chili, wilderness of alaska, amazon rainforest.
are just a couple that come to mind.
They are shitholes, and you'll be living in a cabin. But you do have a choice.

It's about being able to have a choice. You can either live in a non taxed shithole where you watch your back or freeze to death. Or live in a society where you can walk freely on the street because taxation has made everything nice and easy for you.

Two choices. So the theft argument about not having choices is technically invalid.

>>729529012
>wahh police stop me from being a danger to myself and others

speed limits exist for a reason

>>729524977
taxation pays water lines, electricity, streets, hospitals, schools etc. how do you want to keep these things without paying for them?

>>729529122
>technically
You can either pay me or die. You technically have a choice :)

>>729528940
I think you are explaining a flaw in the states system for providing welfare than a flaw in leaving people alone and not forcing them to pay for an arbitrarily sized government.

Welfare btw... kek

>>729529221
>what is capitalism

>>729528214
>I want all the benefits of civilization without paying anything for it, you're all literally raping me.

>>729526744
https://www.quora.com/Which-countries-have-no-income-tax

You agree to the implicit contract by remaining here when there are options available to you that do not tax your work. You knew long before you needed to start working that income tax was a thing. You have other options. implicit contracts are still contracts and are binding.

>>729529208
victimless crime

>>729528653

-Taxed lands: Good to live
-Non taxed lands: Shitholes

Does this mean anything to you?

>>729529253
>welfre is bad
Why don't you just kys anon? You're literally arguing for starving out the poor.

I've never paid taxes (not including sales taxes). Now I collect disability and am being p a I'd by the government to do nothing.

>>729529237

Good talk.

>>729529351
>victimless

ya except all the other drivers on the road you are putting in harms way

>>729529295
so you rather want to pay exceptionally more and each time your taking a service than paying taxes and the government does it all?

>>729529351
There will eventually be a victim if you keep doing it. Shooting a gun in the air is illegal regardless of weather or not the bullets hit someone.

>>729529497
>exceptionally more
You mean less right? No bureaucracy like the EU.

>>729529295

Yeah that's bringing the US very good healthcare that is affordable for everyone.
Other countries that have this taxed are fucked.

>>729528653
all the places without workable systems of commerce and national defense paid for via taxes are shit holes? weird that.

>>729529383
Am I?
War on poverty has spent how much?
Difference in amount who are poor between great society and today?
Not getting into any moral argument in why i have to be forced to pay for the poor and their crappy life choices

Gov holds a monopoly on most of the services you are saying only they can privide. Example.

In y neighborhood we didn't have enough streetlights for the kids to safely play t night.
Instead of asking the gov to put them in some of the neighbors get together. And had them installed. We paid for them and we pay for the power bill. City had them removed because we didn't obtain a permit(which would have been denied) a month later the city put new lights in on our street, and charged the tax payer.

Go try to fix a pothole on your street on your own. The gov will make it impossible. That's called a fucking monopoly kids

>>729529640
i want to see your fucking ass paying for a broken sewer pipe in your street or a fucking power plant and then we'll talk

>>729529784
>and their crappy life choices
AAAAAAAAAND you're too American for this board. Go back to /pol/

>>729525725
Damn, you almost got away with trolling. You got to try harder then that big boy.

>>729529471
>putting in harms way

gonna have to clarify that one anon, otherwise its meaningless and still victimless

>>729528586
>the government would never do a half-asses job
>no incentives = hard workers

>>729529697
Are you saying it isn't good or affordable?

>>729529894
sorry, can't help it

>>729529918
>gonna have to clarify driving fast on roads made to drive sloly makes cars more dangerous
Made me think.

>>729529784

Forced to pay for the sidewalk you walk on. Forced to pay for the clean air you breathe by government rulings made by people paid for by taxes.

There's no end to the things you benefit from just by living. There's no choice.
But if you wouldn't pay taxes you'd pay the same money to others to do the same work you have done for you now.
Or you don't pay taxes or people, and freeload on the system.

>>729529784
You're not forced, you're free to leave.
Also it's not "life choices" you fuckwit, it's this thing called chance.

>Muh roads

>>729530262
What did they mean by this?

>>729529869
You and your neighbors and the buissness that use those sewer lines most certainly could fix them. And have it done cheaper and more efficient. The problem is the gov won't allow competition for certain services

>>729529918
you could crash into someone and harm them someone could brake unexpectedly and you could plow into them there could be someone running across the street who midjudged you

you are putting everyone on the road in danger when you speed a car is not a toy it is a large heavy hunk of metal with an engine

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>>729524977
> In this lengthy essay, Spooner argued that the Constitution was a contract of government (see social contract theory) which could not logically apply to anyone other than the individuals who signed it, and was thus void. Furthermore, since the government now existing under the Constitution pursued coercive policies that were contrary to the Natural Law and to the consent of the governed, it had been demonstrated that that document could not adequately stop many abuses against liberty or prevent tyranny.
>OP is quoting the original Sovereign Citizen

>>729530148
individuals would obviously consider their risks and as long as you didn't harm anyone on your way from point A to point B in any discernible way, its victimless. Please give me more because just saying its more dangerous does not validate the wasteful collection from police through tickets

>>729530312
no they wont allow someone who doesnt know what they are doing to fix lines that carry toxic waste

>>729530339
>contrary to the Natural Law
>Natural Law
What is that anyway?

>>729530486
Idiot, you hire the same company that they do to fix it, you just cut out the fucking middle man

>>729530464
>please give me more
More what?
Like I said earlier, if it was legal people would do it more often witch would lead to more crashes. It's like with shooting guns in the air, it's illegal no matter if bullets connect.

>>729530599
and that company realizes they can charge whatever they want and do as shoddy work as they can cause their ass isnt on the line anymore

>>729530312
thank god no one will let normal people fix the sewers or build power plants. the whole country would explode in like 2 weeks

think about all the fuckwits on the planet

>>729524977
Prove what wrong ?

We're paying for living far before we even are born.
And we will be paying far after we'll be dead.

The real question would be: what's the difference between a state and a gang.

>>729530325
> crashing into someone is not victimless
> traveling safely but over the speed limit is victimless

try again anom

>>729530502
It's a reduction ab initio of the basis of law and society, along the lines of "we are all free to do whatever we want and no governments can or should try to stop it"; it's an extra-looned up form of Objectivism/Libertarianism.

>>729530486
And if that company screws up and waste goes everywhere no one will hire them again. Unlike gov who will keep giving bids to subpar contractors because some councilmans brother in law owns the company

>>729530795
>traveling safely but over the speed limit
>safely
>over the speed limit
Do you see the flaw in your argument?

>>729530690
>It's like with shooting guns in the air, it's illegal no matter if bullets connect.

what possible reason would you have to make it illegal to shoot a gun in the air if it didnt injure anyone or damage property???

seriously, think about it

>>729530795
speed limits exist for a reason because its not safe to travel faster than that on that road


breaking the speed limit is just as bad as hitting someone

>>729530820
Ok I understood maybe half of what you said. Second language you know.
Layman's terms please?

>>729530753
It's called competition you dip hit there are hundreds of other companies competing for that bid. You really have no idea how the free market works do you?

>>729524977
Taxation is a government owning the land and then requiring the people on it pay rent. There is no true land ownership for most.

>>729530991
>what possible reason would you have to make it illegal to shoot a gun in the air if it didnt injure anyone or damage property???
Are you pretending to be retarded anon?

>>729530928
Implying that you can not travel safely and go over an arbitrary speed limit set by some busy body government offical

>>729530867
yes just like no one buys from any of these food brands that had salmonella recalls

oh wait they all still exist and have changed nothing about how they operate

>>729528786
Were it that simple, i would arm myself and secure my property accordingly. But it's less that the government is protecting you and more that you are renting a piece of their territory.

>>729530993
>breaking the speed limit is just as bad as hitting someone

I would ask that you heavily ponder on that one there

>>729531142
You deserve to die in a car crash.

>>729531you do know that the gov inspects those companies right?

>>729531242
>implying you'll get the same sort of punishment for both

>>729530599

And all the neightbours will join in?
What if someone wouldn't join in? They have no money to spare at the moment. They say they don't want to use the sewer (but do anyway after its fixed).

What if the sewers break in the street only for your house? Will your neighbours pitch in to help?

>>729524977
It's a cost you agree to by working as a w2 or 1099 employee.
If you always are paid cash for your services and never open a bank account then the likelihood of you ever being forced to pay taxes is next to nil.

>>729531246
probably do, can I do it without government taxing me?

>>729531040
is it just me or did you somehow hit space instead of S in dipshit?

>>729531172
I work in the food industry and have seen many places go out of buissness for poor sanitation practices.

>>729531402
no

>>729531327
>implying moral equivalence and denying equal punishment

when does the spin stop?

>>729531027
Ah, sorry. It's a form of anarchism; they justify it by saying "Nobody and nothing can take my rights away from me. Governments cannot make me do anything." Read the Wikipedia article on "Natural law" for more details.

>>729531498
meanwhile many others continue the same shit and never once get called on it thre is a restaunt in my town that is both famous for leaving with a stomach flu but also oner of the most popular i have heard people say it wouldnt be the same without the sickness

>>729531348
He doesn't have to join in that's the Beauty of spontaneous order it does not rely on force

>>729529365
LOL I was thinking the same thing. You seeing the correlation here OP?

>reduce the human population
>hunt and gather for food
>dilution is the solution to the pollution
>don't depend on unsustainable practices
>???
>stone age

>>729524977
It would be theft if we received nothing in return.
Property taxes is a return to serfdom/fiefdom.

One could argue that we are being taxed without a choice of what we get in return, but then everyone has much the same access to all services, whether they use them or not.

>>729531663
You do nderstand that your beloved government inspects that place and pass them ever time right. And you pay taxes for the government to give them a pass. Did you know that most of the big food producers pay 3rd party auditors and they not the gov are the ones that catch the most contamination? Why? Because they know if they relied solely on the gov that they would get people sick and go out of buissness.

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Anagram turtle is in your thread.

>>729532338
What does this have to do with atheism?

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>>729532338
Never thought I'd be able to use this.

>>729532415
The neckbeards who are so fond of shouting about MAH PROPERTAY also scream about atheism, too.

>>729532415
You missed the part about *anagram*.

>>729525725
If the current rash of privatization has taught us anything, it's that private companies have absolutely zero incentive to do a good job because a company's ONLY incentive is profit.

What's worse is that privatization deflects any responsibility from anyone the public has any means of watching behind layers and layers of obfuscation.

Nobody cares what private companies do because there are no customers for public services and even if somebody makes enough of a stink to get people fired up about anything, it's not as if citizens paying a competing company for prison administration or picking up the street in their neighborhood is the least bit practical.

The government HAS to be the entity that authorizes contracts for public services.... so by privatizing, all you're really doing is paying someone less money to do a shittier job.

>>729531763

People are selfish. And lots of them will keep from paying if theyre not forced to.
It will bring loads of problems like this getting everyone to pay for the stuff that needs doing.

That one neighbour that goed on holiday three times a year, doesn't give a fuck and doesn't pay for any public goods.
And all neighbours are fine with this? No one will think: 'Gee I could do the same thing and apparently get away with it'.

The middle man (taxes) is there for a reason. It's to get shit done.

>>729524977
road construction is charity. prove me wrong.

>>729532700
These companies have a monopoly that is dependent on government regulation. They have no incentive because they have no competition because the government regulates and taxes their competition out of business. Gov pick the winners and losers.

>>729531782
bu-bu-bu-bu-bu-bu-bu-bu-bu but coral ation does not equal Caucasian

>>729530928
Travelling within the speed limit not guarantee you safety, just like speeding over limit not guarantee you accident, you dumbwit fuckmoron.

>>729532700

This is what happened to the railroads in holland the last couple of years.
Privatisation has made it explosively more expensive while bringing the overall quality down.

There's no choice in using other railroads. Since there are no others.

>>729528761
>competition breeds excellence argument

I guess that's why every game being released now is a 10/10 right? Because there are literally thousands of developers, and according to you that amount of competition would mean exceptionalism?

See how libertarianism only works on paper and not in reality?

>>729532862
How is a pencil made? Does one person organize it? No. a pencil is needed so a pencil is made

>>729532942
Taxes paid for the construction of public roads, which are then usable by the general public including any and all taxpayers. Said taxpayer benefits from good roads, therefore the tax is not a contribution to just another party, but to oneself as well. To be a charity, the other party must not be presenting any benefit in return.

>>729524977
It's not theft because Government gives you the right to own land. You can solve your entire worldview by just looking at government as a big corporation. What they call "own" is just a complex renting process. You agree to rent a house with an initial fee to someone else but you have to pay rent "property tax" and you have to abide by the rules of the landlord "laws". Solved, you are now living in an ancap society on the privatley owned land of the corporation "US government (tm)". You are free to leave and go to some other corporation but sadly all the product (land) is bought up and no corporation is willing to sell right now. Tough luck, that's capitalism.

>>729533354
Technology is one of the most under regulated industries in the us. Technology keeps getting better and cheaper. Healthcare is extremely regulated yet keeps getting worse and more expensive

>>729533390

I don't get what you're trying to say.

>>729533456
does not necessitate coercion to have said road built.

what about all the other government programs that are means tested and are not available to most who are forced to pay for it

>>729524977
>>729525290
It's not because the government pays and employs people who do work on public locations and structures that the general public have access to. Bridges, tunnels, highways, parks, that's all payed for by the taxes you pay. You're not paying some invisible gangster, you're paying to be part of the world and community you live in.

>>729533662
this

>>729526000
trips hold the truth

Honestly, I can understand this world view if you are one of those people who lives on a farm or a rural area and you feel pretty self-sustainable. You aren't using the libraries, your truck doesn't need good roads, you couldn't give two shits if the closest sports team gets a new arena etc etc. However if you live near or in the city, and you don't want taxes to exist, your way of life is gonna turn to shit real fuckin' quick

>>729533752
Read an essay called "I pencil". Google it
Basically breaks down how a pencil is made down to the smelting of iron for the cables and chainsaws to bring the trees down. Yet none of it is organized by any one entity and most of the people involved in the process don't even need the pencil, yet it is produced. Spontaneous order

>>729533020
It has to be that way.

You literally can't have individual citizens choosing and paying for public services peicemeal because it won't get done.

>>729533171
This is also happening with Human Services programs in a lot of states. The employment department is a good example.

It used to be that the employment department was a place a person could go to learn things you need to know to find jobs in different fields. You could get help with job placement, get referred to training programs to find a new career, get help with educational resources to help you advance your career. Regardless of what people think about who needs this kind of thing, getting as many people working by any means necessary is something that essential to society.

Now that it's privatized, it's a place to use free internet. Also you might get referred to a warehouse that pays minimum wage and expects people to work 12 hours a day to stack bags of seeds.

It costs the government the same amount of money it did before.

>>729526827
The tax you for your hospital use, in countries with healthcare directly, and in countries without it, they tax the hospital.

Anyway you pay the goverment to be born.

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>>729533662
Wow, good job.

>>729524977
>ITT: People who don't understand the concept of a social contract

>>729524977
Depends on which country you live in, in the USA it's theft for sure since the taxes are only used for "Muh army"

>>729533354
>I guess that's why every game being released now is a 10/10 right

that's just because there IS a market for shitty games
why make decent game if kiddos are throwing their parents' money at you?

>>729534172 it has to be that way? Read up on the east India rading company and you will see what I'm talking about

>>729533777
It's not a perfect system by any means.
The mindset has always been "everyone pays, everyone benefits" even though it's almost never absolutely true.

Ideas for a better system are few and most would not be possible at anything beyond the local scale.

>>729525725
Fuck private enterprise, we have a huge workforce just sitting around all day.

Convicts, convicts can do all of the menial labour we pay town/city workers $20 hr (of taxpayers $) to do.

>>729533662
OP just got BTFO

/Thread

>>729533887
Your truck runs on gas, gas comes from oil, so does your tires and a fuck load of other things used on a farm or even just in rural areas.
If you deny people their cut to make their community better in one way they'll just fuck you in another. All of a sudden you're paying 50 dollars a gallon for gas within a 100 mile radius of where you live because you think you're so "self-sustainable"
That or something else, no guarantees, no absolutes.

>>729533662
But there is no difference, when all land belongs to everybody, and their representative is a government. It's like the goverment is corporation "US Government (tm)" owned by its shareholders, every american citizen.

Poof, you just described statism.

>>729534163

I'll read up on it. Thanks.

But how is this applicable to a thing needed to be build for lots of people that are dependent on it?
I get that it will be build because it needs to be. But there will still be more freeloaders on the system then with forced payments for everyone.

I don't see how the pencil story sheds a different light on this problem.
The pencil is build because people will pay for it individually. Most public service problems need to be build by big groups to buy one product.

Taxation is theft does not imply that it is not neccicary, only that it is immoral. Saying slavery is immoral does not mean that it was not neccicary in its time. Saying that taxation is theft implies that it is immoral and we should be looking at new and different ways to move away from the immorality of taxes. Every one saying that taxes are neccicary and therefore not theft would be the same person arguing that slavery is neccicary and therefore not immoral. What they would be missing though is a lack of imagination that there would ever be machines that could do the work of 1000 slaves.

>>729534681
Wait you serious?

>>729535045
Yes, a government is by definition statism. This doesn't mean that "taxation is theft" isn't retarded since it can be solved by simply viewing the world in a slightly different way.

>>729535088
There are already plenty of freeloaders on the system. If a road is needed to facilitate commerce the road will be built. Spontaneous order, yes there will be free loaders but a it cuts out the middle man gov from stealing its fee for facilitating the project and b we dont need overlords

We can deliver a gallon of oil from the Middle East to the Gulf of Mexico for less than it costs to send a letter to your neighbor, but yet we need centralized planning to deliver the mail? Give me a break

>>729534602
You're a moron. The EITC was a shipping company that was able to basically take over a government.

Not a public service.

For example, how would a private police force work unless the government authorized and paid their contract?

Are you saying that people who can't afford to pay a private security firm directly don't deserve basic protection?

>>729535740
>it can be solved by simply viewing the world in a slightly different way.

some pretty famous last words of most civilizations

>>729535855
USPS operates on it's own profit and hasn't received any public funding in almost 20 years.

That's why it's so expensive, and they even have competition.

>>729524977
You use the services it paies for and benifit from others use of them (Like a lower crime rate.)

The problems you see come from a lack of funds and as such taxation of the appropriately wealthy.

>>729535948
>necessity does not equal right

>>729535948
Are you implying that private coorperations in America haven't taken over the government and lobbied for regulations that use the government to put competition out of buissness the same way east India did

>>729536211
Public education has been running on that exact philosophy and has been generating dumber and dumber children

>>729536426
No, but I AM saying that formalizing that arrangement is bad idea of catastrophic proportions.

>>729535948
If you think that communities would not donate to keep a police force if they weren't forced to you are wrong

I can't, because taxation it wrong and exists solely for the purpose of financing the governments pyramid scheme and distributing resources and creating an false illusion of prosperity. in other words: socalism

>>729536023
I don't think that's an argument. How exactly am I wrong? If you want to we can live in ancap world right now simply by chaning the meaning of some words like "buy" to "rent", "government" to "corporation", "laws" to "contractually obligated guidelines" and "property tax" to "rent".

>>729536683
redistribute resources...

>>729535855

I'm still not conviced making everything a public or bussiness affair will work out this way.
There's many snags and things that'll fuck things up majorly in this day and age. Maybe in the future something like this could be feasonable.

Anyway, I gotta go. But I'm going to think about the things that you (and others) said. It's interesting! Thanks for the insights!

Will read the I pencil thing as well.

>>729536683
Your first mistake was assuming those resources were yours to begin with.

>>729536762
words have objective meaning
you deciding that they mean something else crumbles any ability to form a discussion of any value
All these comments are running on a somewhat agreed upon basis of definition for each word. Government does not just become corporation and taxes dont just become rent because you say so.

>>729536538
All that I wa getting at is that the free market tat you see and don't like is not a fre market. It is a market controlled by the bully arm of the government

>>729526341
Best anon on the thread award goes to you!

>>729536898
any money i obtain through work is mine. that's why i don't pay taxes (i don't live in usa)

>>729537161
I see, you don't trust the government.

But you do trust the government to protect the free market in your hypothetical scenario.

What you're talking about can't exist. People will always consolidate power for advantage.
That's what a government is.

This entire argument is people who are so selfish that they want all the protection and services a functioning society provides, but they don't think it should cost them anything.

Good luck with that.

>>729537569
Wrong we don't think we should be threatened into paying for it

>>729537158
The purpose of this is not to actually redefine words, but instead to show that living in an ancap world is the same as what we are now.

There is no way I can easily redefine a couple of words to make the US into a communist state, but somehow that is possible with the US and anarcho-capitalism.

Taxation isn't theft because government allows you to own things. Just like it's not theft if your landlord asks you pay rent or if he asks you to not bother the other people living there or destroy the house.

All you pro forced taxation people are the same type of brainwashed morons who would keep funding the Catholic Church and living as serfs in a feudalistic system even after Martin Luther and Gutenberg started distributing the Bible in common language and exposed the scam the church was running through pentence and being born into a social class with no mobility. It's so programmed into your brain that even when shown the truth you lack the imagination and fortitude to take a look at something different. If you people were the majority back then we would have never had the industrial revolution and democracy. The future is not limited to past concepts why is that so hard to understand?

>>729537725
You realize that's like complaining about going into a store planning on buying a candy bar, but then complaining about the morality of what would happen if you decided not to pay and just took it?

You know what, you're right. We should have an island with no laws or police or services or government of any kind, and anyone who doesn't want or fails to pay their taxes should be sent there and not allowed back in.

>>729537777
Quints are right, roadfags can lick a taint.

>>729538264
Not an argument.

>>729524977

There's a lawyer in California who has been making some headway in not paying income tax. It's hard to find too much about him...

Basically he's proving the case that the tax code is worded in some way that implies that you only pay tax on income that is above and beyond what would be considered compensation for your time and effort performing the task .

Since the capitalist system is set up so that employers only pay the least they can pay to gain/retain an employee (not just minimum wage-fags, either... if that VP isn't getting his $1.2 million a year, he'll go somewhere else), so what you earn from a company is only a recompensation for the work, and isn't taxable.

Bonuses and stock option type things are still a grey area, but only because when the tax code was written, those sorts of things weren't anticipated.

>>729537777
>it can be solved by simply viewing the world in a slightly different way.
>There is no way I can easily redefine a couple of words to make the US into a communist state, but somehow that is possible with the US and anarcho-capitalism.

I do not agree, and it is poor debate skills to resort to changing definitions to make your argument work.

>Taxation isn't theft because government allows you to own things.
Thats an extremely depressing effort in explaining your reasoning. Is your idea that 100 percent of my labor belongs to government and taxation is just the government letting me keep a portion of it?

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>>729524977
Oh that's true, it's just an acceptable loss.

In the same way that arresting a criminal is basically kidnapping.

Because the alternative is basically to one of those fucking Republican-style faux 'libertarians', and those fuckers are just out of touch with the real world.

>>729538436
More like running a business in mob controlled territory, sure there are benefits that that mob gives you, but if you don't pay them for the benefits you gain from them controlling the territory they burn your shop down and break your legs. It's called extortion and it is illegal for anyone to do who is not the gov

>>729538264
the church didn't ruin society. politicians did, when they tried to replace the church with the state and themselves as the new priests.

Communism doesn't work irl

>>729538731 wasn't meant to be an argument just the truth

>>729538883

>I do not agree, and it is poor debate skills to resort to changing definitions to make your argument work.

I'm not redefining words to make my argument work. I am redefining words to prove to you that you already live in an ancap-society.

>Thats an extremely depressing effort in explaining your reasoning. Is your idea that 100 percent of my labor belongs to government and taxation is just the government letting me keep a portion of it?

I'm saying that just like you have to pay rent if you rent an apartment you have to pay taxes, that doesn't mean 100% of your labor belongs to your landlord.

>>729538973
an communism is just capitalism disguised as equality

>>729539417
You know nothing of history my friend

Sure, it's theft, but there are different kinds of theft. If I take forcefully take your money and then use it for my interests, that's immoral theft. But if I forcefully take your money to help build a road or fund education for poor children, that's moral theft.

The simple fact is that even if you own lots of money, some of it would generate more net happiness if it were distributed differently. Unless you are saying that pleasure isn't necessarily good and/or are literally willing to question all of reality, it's clear that the only basis for morality is net happiness, and policies that maximize net happiness among all living/sentient beings are objectively the best.

It is therefore morally justifiable to forcefully take away your money, as long as it benefits the common good.

>>729539516
>I'm not redefining words to make my argument work.
>I am redefining words to prove to you that you already live in an ancap-society.

This is surreal...

My landlord and I have a consensual relationship. My government is not consensual and will resort to violence if I do not cooperate with them. Don't tell me that consensual sex and rape is the same thing (not even by changing definitions).

>>729526138
Pretty sure there are lawless places devoid of government you could go live. Maybe Afghanistan or Somalia. Those places probably don't ask for much know tax.

>>729526387
Or just garnish your salary...

>>729539691
more than you, if you actually believe that government nonsense. politics is just a way to control people for profit & power. and for better and worse, the church has always been big government biggest antagonist. both claims to serve the people, both abuse it's powers and both has honest people in their ranks

What I choose to do with my money is my buissness

>>729524977
This guy's an idiot.

Government's rule through force (in which case it is theft) or through CONSENT in the case of Democracies.

Mofo doesn't know wtf he's talking about.

>>729539940
>This is surreal...

It's not, there is a difference.

>My landlord and I have a consensual relationship. My government is not consensual and will resort to violence if I do not cooperate with them. Don't tell me that consensual sex and rape is the same thing (not even by changing definitions).

You do have a consensual relationship with the government, you can choose to leave their private property. You bought your house under a contract that followed US law so of course you will have to follow this corporation (US (tm))'s guidelines on how to behave (this includes taxes).

Your landlord is morally allowed to use violence against you if you violate your agreement. If you for example vandalize your apartment or if you disturb the other guests or if you don't pay your rent.

Everything is perfectly consensual, the only difference is that you have this weird idea that you for some reason have absolute ownership over land you bought under US-law. That's like me buying the right to rent my neighbors apartment and then expecting not to have to pay rent.

>>729540603
You literaly don't have a clue what you are talking about. After the fall f Rome the Catholic Church was the government. Just stop, you're making a fool of yourself

>>729529237
It's not just pay or die nigger. It's pay or live hard. If you ain't got the balls to live in the frontier of civilisation then shut the Fuck up and except the deal.

>>729540926
and what did i say:
>both claims to serve the people, both abuse it's powers
can't you read?

>>729529856
Where is this?

>>729540818
Either government is public or private property. Pick one and stick with it or there will be no point.
Telling me to leave if I dont like my government taking my money without consent is not directly tackling the immorality of taxes.
>Taxation isn't theft because government allows you to own things.
>allows you to own things.
Obviously I dont own shit in your view of things. So we are slaves to this government you, in your fantasy world of definitions, call a corporation and its private property that encompasses everything in this territory. Either way, the way you are arguing isn't really helping your case. I think you would be in support in overthrowing this government/corporation. Who even owns this country if it is a corporation? The generation that is alive or what?

>>729541188
Yes and Martin Luther and Gutenberg gave people the truth, that the Catholic Church was lying to them to keep a class structure and steal people's money. People who believe that forced taxation is neccicary are the same people who would choose to keep paying penitence to the Catholic Church and choose to remain as serfs as the Catholic Church told them that they had to stay in whatever class they were born into. Even after it was exposed that they were being lied to. I dont see why that is so hard to comprehend

>>729541381
Where is what?

>>729541994
this
GET IT?!

>>729531040
>implying government/private sector contracts operate through competition and not webs of backdoor deals.

The private/public is best meme has to fucking die. The corporations have already swallowed many poor countries and they are coming for the west next. Don't let private players own public works ever.

>>729542136
Correct, let the people own public works through spontaneous order

>>729542086
No

>>729526929
The federal reserve bank/government is a private corporation.

>>729541846
>i could say the same thing to you
church wants to control the people. government wants to control the people. they're two forces that parasites on people. and government won over the church, and now has monopoly on truth

Who the fuck pays taxes anyway?

>>729541682
Listen mate, I need to sleep so this is the last response. I don't think you want to change your mind so I don't I can do anything.

>Either government is public or private property. Pick one and stick with it or there will be no point.

Government isn't any kind of property. Government is a corporation that is owned by citizens. This corporation owns all land described by US-borders.

When you buy a house you are signing a contract with your government agreeing to follow US-law and paying a fixed amount.

>Telling me to leave if I dont like my government taking my money without consent is not directly tackling the immorality of taxes.

If you don't like the apartment you live in then you have to leave. Don't complain about your land-lord.

Like I said, it's not non-consensual. You consent by trading under US contracts.

>Obviously I dont own shit in your view of things. So we are slaves to this government you, in your fantasy world of definitions, call a corporation and its private property that encompasses everything in this territory. Either way, the way you are arguing isn't really helping your case. I think you would be in support in overthrowing this government/corporation. Who even owns this country if it is a corporation? The generation that is alive or what?

You own something, just not unconditionally. Just like you renting an apartment that is still your apartment but you're not to do anything in it.

If you're against violence you shouldn't advocate overthrowing your land-lord just because he asks you to follow the rules you agreed to.

>>729538436
So australia? We send them to australia.

>>729542487
We don't need either controlling us. Pro forced taxation people want the gov to control us and even knowing that we don't need them to keep saying that they must. Same as the church in the 1500's

>>729533792
noone ever asked me if i needed those services, they just assume i would and come and take my money by the threat of force. its theft no matter how you look at it you dumb fuck

>>729524977
taxation is not without consent. you have the choice to pay or go to prison.

>>729542440
Normally people say "this" when they agree.
But you said "where is what" to a question that was like "where is this"
You know?

>>729543002
meme

>>729542984
Just fuck off.

>>729543303
Jepordy?

>>729543454
Now I don't get it.

>>729542564
>Government isn't any kind of property. Government is a corporation that is owned by citizens. This corporation owns all land described by US-borders.When you buy a house you are signing a contract with your government agreeing to follow US-law and paying a fixed amount.

If it is private property in terms of a corporation, and I am a citizen, do i not own some part of this government? Isn't this just some confused fuckery of who owns what and for what purpose? No individual signs contracts with their government to purchase a house so get the fuck out with that shit.

>If you don't like the apartment you live in then you have to leave. Don't complain about your land-lord.
Like I said, it's not non-consensual. You consent by trading under US contracts.

I will complain if he is a shitty landlord. Why would I not if he abuses me and extorts me and charges wild prices to live in a shitty apartment? What Us contracts are talking about?!?!? It doesnt help that you dont specify a single contract.

>You own something, just not unconditionally. Just like you renting an apartment that is still your apartment but you're not to do anything in it.If you're against violence you shouldn't advocate overthrowing your land-lord just because he asks you to follow the rules you agreed to.

Im not going to bother with this one since the previous had not been responded to properly to allow me to enter this one. The ambiguity of how much I own something is not conducive to an internet argument.

>>729542815
that's what i've been trying to tell you. those two opposing forces a co-depended on each other.
>when government fails; the church steps in
>when church fails: the government steps in
that's one of the things that made rome fall. government fucked up society and made it degenerate.

then the church stepped in to pick up the pieces and turned it into an authoritarian nightmare, until the next government reincarnation stepped in.

big society always fail because man is a pack animal (like predators), and not an herd animal (like sheep).

If taxation is theft then profiting from another person's labor must also be theft.

>>729542564
>>729543816
hey guys, what if property right are just made up all together by men with guns. what if property is not an actual real thing

>>729544052
property rights are made up because power-hungry weaklings are afraid of property owners with guns

>>729544502
what is that supposed to mean

>>729544608
it's hard to demand land tax from someone who sticks a shotgun barrel under your chin and tells you to fuck off or else...

>>729545189
but people do pay land tax, and it the tax collector that has the threat of force on his side

I think theft implies that you don't get anything for your money. Now, you may not like the services your government provides or think they're efficient at it, but you DO receive services in exchange for your tax money.

All of that aside, pick any place in the world with no taxes and tell me you'd want to live there. Go ahead, I'll wait.

>>729545653
exactly. that's why there is an law on land tax, to take away people's right to their own property

>>729526341
The land owns me and all the creatures that live here. Freedom is being able to survive with what the land gives you. No corporation,govt or community could ever hope to give you freedom let alone any benefit such as bridges roads, propagandist indocrination, parks, garbage removal.

>grey man is closer to freedom
>bushwacking

>>729526827
>issued ss card at birth by govt
>tracking number for how much debt you owe to the jew cartel
>mfw ~70k to denounce citizenship
>mfw deport you to jail

>>729546485
>social security
You know it's not manditory right?

>>729543864
What I'm saying is that we are at the beginning of a new revolution that is going to make forced taxes and centralized planning obsolete, weather it be church or state doing the taxes and planning, and people are so brainwashed to think that the way we have been doing things and the normal cycles of progression are the only things that will ever exist. Many people in the 1500's thought the same thing, they were wrong. People who think forced taxation is the only way to fund society are wrong and will be looked at by history as fools and cowards

>>729532490
>Communism is Christianity for Atheists
Actually, 20th century theologian Francis Schaeffer, founder of Switzerland's L'abri, said exactly this. "Socialism is a Christian heresy."

>>729547147
Was he catholic?
You know not every theologian has to be correct right?

>>729547122
i think we'll go in opposite direction; more centralization, more taxation, more corruption of religion & culture.

telling the few in control to give up taxes, is like telling them to give up central banking & the keynesian model.

>>729546691
Oh really
https://money.stackexchange.com/questions/21327/how-do-i-opt-out-of-the-social-security-system

>>729533354
Talk to me about how browsing got so much better during Internet Explorer's monopoly of the '00's, and quality crashed dramatically with the introduction of Firefox.
After that, explain what a tragedy it is that we have competing postal delivery services. And grocery stores. And construction contractors.
It's a good thing the DMV has no competition, otherwise its famous quality would surely decline, right?
Single-payer medicine is great! Just take a look at American single-payer: the VA. No complaints there, and it's not like over 2/3 of veterans voluntarily choose to pay more for healthcare coverage just so they can escape the VA system, is it?

>>729524977
consent is given when you make use of tax funded government services like clean water, fair access to electricity and roads.

>>729547807
Blame your dad

>>729535441
Ah ok, let's pay say 30-50k a year per prisoner so they can lift weights and watch tv all day. Much better option for those that choose to break the law.

>>729548675
it's like paying out welfare to people and wonder why they don't look for a job instead of just sitting home, doing whatever they feel like, and collect on their social security.

Only dumb cucks don't see the necessity of taxing people. Also, if you don't like it then leave or propose a more feasible way to generate money.

>>729550168
not everybody are democrats

Don't cry about welfare. Just accept that people will exploit the system. It's flawed. Quit crying and accept that and go about your mediocre life. That's what the rest of us do. Goddamn cry babies. "Wahh it a my money. I have to work while they don't." Shut the fuck up and worry about yourself -_-

>>729550417
What a generic response.

>>729550950
and yet, here you are, replying...

>>729525356
ok kendrick

>>729551120
It's just applying a general statement to the views of a political party is an annoying thing to do. It's annoying and presumptive to say that one phrase is indicative of my entire view on an subject and thus can be summed up by associating me political party. As if that one statement is entirely exclusive to that party.

>>729551963
i don't believe in politics of any kind. it's a hobby for stupid people with too much money and time at their hands. left or right, it's just jerking your own idealistic cock.

democracy is stupid because it's just another form of politics, designed to benefit the few. intelligent people are well and capable of organizing themselves into groups. the dumb people are dumb and will perish, just like nature intended, fuck 'em

>>729552576
Let me guess, you're the smart one eh?

>>729552948
sorry no. i'm just an drop of piss in the large ocean

>>729552576
I can agree with that. What gets me is the people who cry for equality and how things aren't fair. Equality is a myth and freedom is conditional. Things aren't as bad here as they are other places. Be happy we aren't some shit tier country. Not you in particular but people in general. Could be living in mud houses and shitting in a hole. Fuck that, I'll just by cheap toilet paper and cuss a little when the Man takes money out of my check.

>>729524977
>living cause more CO²
then why dont we all suicide ?

retard

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>>729524977
Thieves don't spend the money they steal to provide services that private businesses don't bother investing in because there's no immediate profit.

>>729553663
???

>>729553722
>bigotry
Yep, found the libtard.

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>>729553868
>you see one word on a comic I didn't even create and instantly label me a liberal without knowing anything about me
You're one of those idiots that just shouts "cuck" to win arguments aren't you?

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>>729553722
that doesn't make any sense at all. i've fixed it for you....

>>729554576
But you are a liberal idiot.
>inb4 no I voted Sanders
That counts

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>>729554800
>implying that businesses will regulate themselves if the government doesn't
I'm a libertarian when it comes to personal freedom, but these companies will (and have in the past) cause serious damage to the economy and the environment in the name of short term profit.

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>>729555176
You don't know anything about me, I voted third party because I was (and still am) disgusted with how the democrats have acted. Throwing a fucking temper tantrum and refusing to accept reality, it's a fucking travesty