Why aren't you communist?

Because I have a job and pay taxes.

>>727987316
Because I grew up.

>>727987316
Because I make my own memes and don't steal.

Because I have the thing called brain

Because it's not the same since a certain Uncle Joe died.

>>727987520
Fuck you. No such thing as "your" memes. Memes are shared property of the collective.

Cause i stay with hegel

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Firstly, because it's inconsistent. It arbitrarily divides private property into "personal property" and "private property" which is nonsense - it's all private.

Secondly, it's contradictory. If communism is supposed to be stateless - it has to have no organized initiation of force, because that's a government. However, if you ask a communist how you deal with an individual who keeps what they earn, they'll prescribe using force or coercion to redistribute his resources. That's organized violence - which is a state solution.

Thirdly, it relies on the objective theory of value, which is absolute nonsense. All forms of trade (and economic thought) are built on the observation that value is subjective. I buy a pen for a dollar because I value the pen more than my dollar. A store sells a pen because they value my dollar more than they value their pen. The mutual benefit causes trade - which commies reject.

Finally, commies treat voluntary exchange of labor for wage as theft. They call work "slavery" because you'll starve if ytou don't work. Simply put, they think the exchange of value for value is somehow theft. Nourishment is a necessity to sustain life, nourishment has value, value must be exchanged for value. Employers are not responsible for nature, thus can't be held accountable / stolen from to nourish people without their consent.

Anyone with any understanding of economics, philosophy, or basic empathy knows communism is nonsense.

>>727987316
because I don't buy a working horse with no legs and arthritis

>>727987316
Because I actually work.

>>727987812
thats bullshit

your reason why you are no communist is that you dont get it

>>727987812
This.

>>727987316
Because I have a basic understanding of economics and human nature. In a communist system,

>What is the incentive to try and excel?
>Where does innovation come from?
>How do you prevent the government from harming its people?

>>727987908
You just proved your lack of intelligence.

>>727987908
I think you're being sarcastic but I'll say it anyway

n o t a n a r g u m e n t

>>727987316
Theorie perfect.. but pratice.. (Urss.. north korea.. china.. cuba.. etc..)
Marx was an historian (as job)
Not a politician..
But give stock of 99% to 1% same thing.. (100% owner to 100% customer)
No?

People are too greedy for communism to work.

Capitalism is easy as hell to fix. Just base wages on profits and put a cap on how much one can earn.

>But I want to be a millionaire.
You don't need to be a millionaire to get anything and everything you want.

>>727987812
Do tards deserve to live? If yes, then why, as they cannot produce anything of value? If no, then what does your position have to do with "empathy"?

>>727987316
Because I'm not a naive idiot.

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>>727987752
Yea, Memes are FREE you make material from a MEME and its belogn to us

>>727988047
Empathy as in being able to understand human motivation or the cause for feelings. Feeling sad for someone based purely on their position isn't empathy - it's pity.
>Deserve
I don't know what that means.

My cousin is mentally retarded but my uncle and aunt take care of her because they love her and want her to be happy. Well, as happy as she can be with her limited faculties. I don't know what that has to do with communism, though.

>>727987316
Because I'm an anarchist.

>>727987812
1 its just a differentiation
2 stateless doesn't mean unorganized
3 economic value in form of kapital has a central problem: its only values progress measuring in liquidity.
but there are such things that we want to value although they arent progressing. the objective theory of value tries to take them in count.
4 there never were a communist state

>>727988296
So you chose the one political ideology even more childish and asinine. Good work anon.

>>727987316
I dont have double digit IQ

>>727987316
There's never been a true industrialized functional communist society. In order for there to be one you'd essentially need someone to claim all the power, instate a communist system, then relinquish power. Step 1 and 2 happen but the the system is then called finished without 3 happening. I don't think anyone will ever go through with step 3, it contradicts human nature. And that's why, I just don't think true communism is possible. Someone will get a leg up at some point and they aren't gonna want to give it up.

>>727988226
Alright, by "deserve to live" i meant "deserve state support in form of tax money" tbh. That does have to do with the topic. And otherwise you're not wrong.

>>727988115
Just saying the word "meme" shows how new you are.

>>727988357
Depends on how you interpret anarchism, but sure anon, that is how it is.
I use it to inform how I act, I don't prescribe what other people should do.

>>727988336

There can't be a communist state.

discussing communism with english speakers... you have to understand basic continental philosophy to come to marxism

>>727988657
you need the whole working class of the planet

>>727988336
>it's just a differentiation
I know, but the differentiation isn't based on anything. It's just an excuse to treat money and resources different from other kinds of property, like body and mind. People own their minds, bodies, and the results of their actions. But somehow if your actions result in profit, you're a thief (according to brain-dead commies)
>stateless doesn't mean unorganized
Didn't say it did. I said the organized use of force. Organized force is a government. A gang taking over a neighborhood and levying taxes / using violence is a form of governance.
>3
I don't know what this statement means. Value is subjective, and valuable assets are voluntarily exchanged. If you have to force someone to buy something against their will, that means they didn't value it at the price it was being offered. Objective value is a contradiction in terms.
>4
not an argument

>>727988503
Newfag

>>727988823
Oldfag

>>727988466
>deserve state support
The state cannot support. The state has no resources. The resources it distributes are stolen from innocent people. A thief doesn't provide.

So no, the retarded don't "deserve" state support - that necessitates theft. The virgin doesn't "deserve" sex with any woman he wants - that necessitates rape.

Because I like my agency and I like other to have their agency too

>>727987316
but i am anon!

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Name one example of it ever working.

inb4 sweden, their largest economic growth was almost completely attributed to a long period of an even more free and open market than America's at the time. Now that they are leaning more socalist, sweden has been predicted to become a "third world" country by 2026 - albeit, admittedly, mostly because of their immigration policies combined with their welfare state.

inb4 china. China 100% owes all of their success to open markets and no regulations.

>>727987968
>What is the incentive to try and excel?
curiosity, pride, altruism, solidarity, social status,...

>Where does innovation come from?
curiosity, pride, altruism, solidarity, social status,...

>How do you prevent the government from harming its people?
what government? communism is bound to be anarchistic.

"basic understanding" you say? educate yourself before you claim that.

>>727987988
wat.

>>727987990
that's a practical way of actually changing things on a short term. but since technology will make up to 50% (us studies claim that, can provide source, or you just google it) of all jobs obsolete, there needs to be a long term plan too.
just redistributing wealth won't be enough. but it's a start for sure.

>>727988871
"Stolen" or not, your country's government has more material possessions than you. They have fucking tanks. Do you have fucking tanks? I doubt it tbh.

>>727988874
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_communism

>>727989040
I don't know what this means. It has nothing to do with what I said
>Force is wrong
>Oh yeah? they have tanks!!

>>727989035
>Implying humans are inherently good

Go boil your head you arrogant, pseudo-intellectual fuck.

>>727989027
swedens post war boom was due to its keynesian economic policy, it had nothing to do with neither socialism nor communism

>>727988503
im no so new, i know the op image is not a meme or a dankmeme
this >>727987520 faggot thinks that its a meme and says that memes can be stolen, one thing its a meme and other the products derivated from a meme
NOT ALL THE THINGS CAN BE A MEME

>>727989105
>implying humans are inherently evil and selfish if provided with everything they need to live a healthy, happy life of dignity

do i have to apologize to you for being idealistic? your trust issues don't apply to everyone, you know?

>>727989035
Altruism doesn't exist. Every sip of water you drink and every meal you eat are inherently selfish. They nourish the self, independent of all others. You drink water while knowing that people are thirsty. You eat when you know others are starving.

To be altruistic, you have to reject all selfishness. You have to reject existence.

>>727989238
btw beaner Here

>>727989104
Tanks are just a silly example of something valuable. Violent or not in nature, they still take resourses and expertise to build.

>>727987316
because Soviet Russia. China and Cuba are prime examples.

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Because communism is based on the concept that people won't be greedy in the seats of power. Every human has a desire to gain more.

Communism has also failed each time it was implemented.

>>727989264
Wrong. Let's say I'm part of some crazy, selfless, hivemind-like fanatic collectivist society. I still need to keep myself alive and capable of work in order to work for the hivemind's good.

>>727987316
Because I'm from a former communist ruled country, that's enough

>>727987316
Not for me, except for when I´m on MDMA.

>>727989264
yeah, we can argue about the perception of reality as well.
point is, if you're doing something for another person without wanting anything back, just because it makes you happy, that's altruism.
of course, you're doing it to feel good, but are you so bitter that you can't accept a gift freely given?

>>727989254
What is a king anytime before 1900? What is Czar Nicholas II? What is King Louis XV?

>>727987316
I enjoy eating daily, know economics, and have morals.

>>727989569
The point he's making though, is that altruism is not the default human condition. Selfishness IS. It's simple really, because an altruistic person dies when a selfish one survives. Natural selection of not just ideas, but culture and people. Sweden's welfare system is going to collapse soon, because giving away all of your belongings just to pat yourself on the back is unsustainable. As it turns out, if you want to ACTUALLY help people (instead of just feeling good about yourself temporarily, which is what communism really comes down to - virtue signaling), creating an actually sustainable economy is a better way to do it. Society and economics reflect the basic tenements of the hierarchy of needs. It's not such a surprise that the most successful systems don't actively try to fight against the nature of humanity, but instead reflect it.

basically, teach a man to fish is better for everyone rather than giving a man a fish.

>>727989750
what economics do you know?

>>727987316
because a centralized government can not achieve a fair social system. It is destined to fail if there is one cetral position of power, there only needs to be one wrong person at this position once. A real social system is only possible within a constitutional democracy, you need failsafes to prevent individuals from amassing too much power, which is essentially the same as kapital.

>>727987752
Okay 9gag.

>>727989651
you want to make an example of monarchs born into royal families, raised and socialized to be rulers?
the whole power structure is different today. in modern countries, most people don't believe in status granted by birth. you're not a sinner nor a saint, depending on the womb that you fell out of.
your actions determine your human value.

>>727989968
Just in case you haven't noticed, that was a bad communism joke.

Place capitalism and communism in a room and capitalism walks out with communism's possessions.

>>727989919
>Sweden's welfare system is going to collapse soon, because giving away all of your belongings just to pat yourself on the back is unsustainable

that's simply not true. its due to the state straying away from keynesian social democratic policy to neoliberal "third way". social democracy is not "giving away your belongings" its investing capital into the labour force...

>>727987520
A meme is a neologism coined by Richard Dawkins
>"an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture"
memes are much more than Internet pictures but are defined by their sharing

>>727987316
Socialism is much more generally appealing to me than communism

>>727989919
i agree with parts of what you've said. the system i dream of isn't something that can actually happen, at least not in the next 100 years.
technological advancement has to give us the opportunity to forge a post-scarcity society, and only then we can think about implementing some of the changes i have in mind.
anyway, selfishness isn't something to simply be accepted. you can keep it in mind, but education and a social environment built on empathy can embed completely different and more important values into humans, than capitalism and the current fight for performance ever could.

>>727987316
Because I don't think a system that defies the natural order of society can function properly.

>>727989972
Well, if your claim was that no person is inherently evil, then how can you make the claim that they are inherently good? If you can't prove one, which yes I am admitting, you can't prove the other. So, you go with what you can. Most people in modern society are evil by monotheistic standards.

>>727989035
>>727987990

Except that all those robots will need to be made and maintained. Also people are cheaper and easier to replace.

>Couple hundred dollars to hire someone new vs thousands to just repair a broken machine.

I already am a communist lol

Because I'm not a penniless hippie

>>727990394
>natural order
yea, what kind of order do you mean? corporate capitalism? the "natural order" that only came into existence in the last 100 years?
or the "natural orders" that came before? monarchy? colonialism? slavery? darwinism? feudalism?

be a bit more precise if you want to be taken seriously.

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I am in spirit.

I grew up dirt poor and watched my peers have normal, happy lives while I worked to help pay for food, water, etc. It's left me full of bitterness, regret, and longing, and a big part of me wants every single person alive to feel as miserable as I did and mostly continue to do every day.

But, another big part of me knows that's wrong. I know I simply lost the birth lottery, and that it's no one's fault by my scumbag father and whore mother. It's no one's fault I'm a broken person barely making ends meet, burying himself in work because he knows he's not well-adjusted enough to find a woman to love and lead any sort of meaningful or normal life.

Capitalism with just enough regulation to prevent abuse and exploitation is the only truly fair system. Those who work smart (not just hard, necessarily) deserve to reap and keep the fruits of that labor without being expected to just hand it over. Society ought to encourage empathy and a charitable spirit, but not at gunpoint with the threat of asset forfeiture and/or prison.

>>727990394
Not the communist anon but what is the natural order of society?
current post fordism society has only existed for about half a century

>>727990706
kek good meme

>>727990711
feudalism. i wanna be a landless peasant under feudalism

>>727989420
rip post. got ignored

>>727990584
>monotheistic standards
i don't get my morals from religions. but i agree, they would be seen as evil, by my own moral standards as well.
and i don't even want to be apologetic, i'm just saying that humankind would benefit from a society that doesn't encourage selfish behavior.

>>727990622
>dollars
one day we will laugh at the antiquated representation of value. but you do have a point with the maintenance argument.
rotate the maintenance to avoid corruption.

>>727990771
relax, nobody holds a gun to your head, especially not under a thought-through version of fully automated post-scarcity communism.
you can still work, it will still be encouraged and you can still gain something for yourself if you work for it, smart or hard.

i understand your skepticism, and it IS highly idealistic, but don't you think the world would be a better place if the genetic lottery wasn't a thing? everybody would have the freedom of choice.

>>727991348
Except genetic lottery is a thing. No matter how hard you work, the better looking, the faster, the stronger, the smarter guy will always be ahead. And sometimes, you just have to accept that fact.

>>727989420
>two false claims with nothing to back them up besides pepe at war
humans aren't inherently greedy; just about every major religion rejects greed and seeks well being; there are incredible numbers of bhuddists, hindus, christians, muslims, etc. that reject greed as part of their everyday lifestyle.
also communism has worked (and still works), for example in kibbutz
Wouldn't recommend running an entire country with it however

>>727991348
I would love to live in a Star Trek scenario of post-scarcity in which everyone is handed the tools to pursue their passions, productive or not.

But do you really see that ever happening? I know it won't in my lifetime. All I can do as one miserable man is try to live as comfortably as I can, alone and un-cared about, until I just die and am forgotten.

>>727991695
it's hard to describe a communist utopia to people who haven't really looked into it.
i'm not trying to be condescending here, i just don't know where to begin to answer this statement.
looks, strength, intelligence, etc. are only important in a society that values these aspects over the readiness to make sacrifices for your community.
all of the characteristics you mentioned will be necessary to build and achieve personal greatness, but should always be separated from your right to live with dignity and the ability to choose your way.

>>727991888
yea, someone told be about that star trek stuff once. impressive that they understood it so early on.
and yea, i've mentioned it above, we can only do so much in our lifetimes. but people in this thread denying the possibility that it might happen one day is just ignorant.

>>727987316
source?

>>727992046
what communist tendencies do you subscribe to anon?

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>>727987316
REEEEEEEE

>>727987316
Because I moved out from my moms home.

>>727993006
that looks like a fake antifa account anon, seems to be a lot of them popping up around now

>>727993094
But why would someone pretend to be someone else on the internet?

>>727993094
My sauce https://archive.fo/zM3WY

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>>727993006
That happened in Houston. Dude lost a bet on an NBA game.

>>727993006
>stop sign
kek

>>727987316
communism sucks

My cunt

>>727994144(Checked)
Still, I want to lulz at political expense.

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>>727987316
because i subscribe to the concept of natural law, and communism proposes we violate those natural laws that are essential to liberal society, for the sake of achieving a collectivist goal.

i can see why socialists bemoan the upper classes, there does seem to be a tendancy for them to use their economic and social power to shit on the working class, but communism is a non-starter from a liberal perspective.

>>727994828
please indulge me in these natural laws anon, id love to see you make a fool of yourself

I'm a trotskyist, what about you OP?
>>727987316

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>>727994828
>natural law

>>727987316
It's outdated and, quite frankly, this "socialist vs. captalist" thing is getting pretty old too, lots of mid-ground alternatives work without letting companies going full predator mode and without giving the state power to take full control of the economy through force.

If anything "left vs right" is a great way of manipulating people into voting based on "us vs them" ideologies...

>>727987316
because communism is a system that only works on paper. I have my country's past as proof.

>>727987946
To the gulag

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>>727995095
its teh jews??

>>727995134
At least post the country.

>>727995166
Communism is actually just Judaism.
Observe that rabbis Hebron and Eleazar define kabbalah as hidden unity made manifest through the invocation of symbols and angels. But unity is communion, and symbols are marks on a piece of paper.
So "unity made manifest by symbols and angels" equals "Communist Manifesto by Marx and Engels".
Further, the name Karl Marx comes from Old Norse "Karl", meaning "man", and "Marx", coming from Latin "Marcus", itself from the older Latin "Martius", meaning "of Mars" or "of war". So the name "Karl Marx" means "man of war". But Exodus 15:3 says "The LORD is a man of war; the LORD is His Name". The LORD is His Name, indeed.

because i'm not a total fucking tool, people telling you what to do when to do it and how. communism always sound good on paper but putting it in real life is another story.

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>>727987316

>>727995179
Romania. Has been a communist country since 1945 to 1989. Communism failed here because people were deeply connected to their lands, and communism came and stripped them of what they prized most. then it tried to focus on a heavy industry without realizing that the country doesn't have the natural resources to support that. And besides that, the so called "equality" was more akin to, everyone was equal, but some were more equal than others. So yeah, fuck your communism.

>>727995308
>people telling you what to do when to do it and how
So you never had a job?

>>727995412
>your communism
#notmycommunism

>>727995231
hmm. that makes a lot of sense and is not just insane babble, thanks

>>727994947
John Lockes makes the case for 3 natural rights in his Second Treatise on Government, the right to life, the right to liberty, and the right to private property. the reason for private property being necesarry is essentially that you cannot eat what is not yours, you cannot sleep where any other man may contest the ground you sleep on, and you cannot build while another man has equal right to the tools you are using. these are the rights that Locke asserts all men have in a state of anarchy, and that violating these rights is essentially an act of war in such circumstances. he also asserts that legitimate government may not violate these rights either, as the rights the government possesses to act are granted by the individuals within it, and therefore no government may violate its own citizens natural rights by any legitimate process.

>>727995038
Lockes concept of natural law is essentially an assertion that there are mutually understood expectations of rights among men, predicated on need and reason. it is for this reason that there can be any assertion of right outside of civil society.

>>727995456
Tell me what part of that don't you understand and i'll explain

>>727995487
all of it

>>727995415
yeah, sorry about that.

>muh autism

>>727995531
You'd have to tell me WHAT you don't understand, I can't really break it down into simpler bits.

>>727995480
lockes opinions about what rights we ought to have do not equate to "natural laws"

>>727995553
Wait, so did you ever have a job or not?

>>727995687
i didnt understand any of it

>>727995719
I'm still in school.

>>727995771
Then you don't know about any of the struggles of living in a capitalist society.

>>727987835
>IMPLYING COMMIES DON'T WORK

>>727995748
>Not hating every person you see, even if it's pretend.
What happened to you /b/?

>>727995748
>the name Karl Marx comes from Old Norse "Karl", meaning "man"
Did you get that?

>>727995831
It's been paraded over and over again by communist supporters here. It's true, I haven't yet been part of the society, but I'd rather have a shitty job and be able to speak my mind and have electricity after 10 pm, rather than work in a factory and be scared of getting my ass kicked by the police for walking outside during the night. Or not agreeing with something. All for just having a shitty factory job.

>>727995694
you havent understood what i said. locke is asserting that there exists a set of informal laws between men, commonly implicitly understood. for example, in a state of nature you and i still have an implicit understanding that if one of us attemts to attack the other, enslave him, or take what he has laid claim to and is using, that would not be accepted by the other, and that the other would attempt to use any means available to him to protect himself from that. this is the idea locke is referring to when he talks about natural rights.

>>727996043
>falling for American propaganda
Did you get your education from black and white cartoons? I'm just saying, you shouldn't only listen to people who've been told to hate communism all their lives.

>>727996043
A communist wouldn't describe it that way.

>>727996158
they haven't. It's things I've heard from my grand parents, and parents, who lived during those times. That is literally the only thing they appreciated about communism. The fact that most people were employed. They also told me about how they had to wait in lines for hours to buy basically anything, from bread to milk. Basic things. Electricity was cut after 10 pm. The tv was 1 hour of something that was remotely entertaining, the rest was communist propaganda. They had to smuggle mundane stuff like jeans and chocolate and perfume, and books.
It's the opinion I've formed after being told these stories time and time again.

>>727987316
Because they deny the existence of property and therefore don't own their own bodies, and are literally not people.

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>>727987316
>2017
>still thinking Communism is in any way a good thing.

Grow up, kid... In fact, 5 bucks says underage b&...

>>727987316
because it doesn't work

Because I like having food and the ability to earn things that I want.

Im not 14

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>>727987316
>bastardizing a popular and established trump/election meme with your commie bullshit

Disgusting.

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>>727987752
>>727988115
>fucking keks
You guys know how much money is made off of memes per year!? "The collective", as you so call it, is simply a pool of both professional (marketing) and amateur photoshoppers making what they think is funny... Some of them go on to be billion-dollar hits (cash me ousside, marketing "memes", etc), others to be lukewarm splashes someone has tucked away in their reactions folder....

>Memes are Big Bu$ine$$...

>>727987975
>>727987982
You really don't know what communism is, ignorance is not a excuse m8

>>727987316

Source on trap pic plox

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>>727988296

>>727988296
>>727988357
have you read anything on classical liberalism at all? if you have an appreciation for individual liberty, it may appeal to you.

>>727996048
>in a state of nature you and i still have an implicit understanding that if one of us attemts to attack the other, enslave him, or take what he has laid claim to and is using, that would not be accepted by the other, and that the other would attempt to use any means available to him to protect himself from that.

sure. this is literally what happened when capitalism spread over the world, the commons where enclosed by capital and the peasants enslaved and turned into proletarians

The problem is, not even who is defending communism here knows what communism really is.

Why isn't worked? China, URSS, Cuba, were/are all dictatorships. Dictatorships are bad even in capitalism, the power is in the hand of literary one person.

There's the libertarian left (not to confuse with Hillary/democrats kind of shit), anarco-socialism, anarco-communism, etc. They have the benefits of sharing resources, not be slaved by mass production of bullshit stuff, etc, but without any form of dictatorship. The government is horizontal, that means, power is not held by one person. Anyone can get in the cities counsels and make choices with the community about prices, laws, etc.

Search for Rojava, is the only "communist" government that really don't have a dictatorship, and could work (it's actually working right now).

>>727987812
wage slave. yes everybody should have to work for their fair share, but not everyone is getting their fair share for their work. it doesn't make any sense. why should some asshole higher ups make a million or so more dollars to do absofuckinglutely nothing, but the bottom feeding laborers/workers making absofuckinglutely nothing even though they do all the work. please quit being so ignorant, we would be far more advanced of a society if we changed our concepts of ownership. as in you shouldn't be able to own a whole fucking business and profit off of it the most when you don't really do any actual work

>>727987316
Non of Marx predictions came true. Their view of the world is based on the early 1800 view of psychology, sociology, economic and history.

>>727987752
This

>>727987316
Because im not mentally retarded. Btw can I have your life savings so we are equal?

>>727997563
This whole post. How hard is it to understand

>>727997559
this

>>727987812
This

>>727987990
Says either a millionare or somekne2 too dumb to ever become one lol Id wager its the former

>>727990787
Sorry Sorry I mean penniless antifa

>>727997559
this
The Democratic Republic of Congo is neither democratic nor a Republic, so we don't judge democracy based on it.

>>727997669
You simple don't understand that in capitalism you are a simple product. Who buys humans-hours? Certainly not me, but maybe the multi billion dollars companies do. There's no fair share in capitalism, because all is driven to accumulation. Why we need fucking Ferrari's? 80% of people have shit-tier jobs, so that other people can have fucking expensive cars. I prefer work less, gain more cash, and have a fucking equally good society for everyone, than have a fucking nice cars with half of my city being poor or hating their own lives.

>>727990333
All that double talk and you still admit that your "system" cant and wont work. Lol tbh dumb as fuck

>>727987812
This. For communism to work, people must be inherently selfless. This is the communist assumption and history has proven it's completely untrue.

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>>727993006

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>>727987316
Because the world is not ready

Marx was ethnocentric as fuck, the truth is that most of the planet is not industrially developed at this point and communism is not really a global option yet.

>>727998303
I hope we can modify the brain in the future to remove greed and tribalism.
I just don't know we'll survive to that point.

>>727998424
>yet
Communism when?

>>727997590
>take everything someone else has and give nothing, so we're equal

I dunno, you sounded pretty fucking mentally retarded right there

>>727998169
>>727998303
Fucking god m8s, Natives from north america, south america etc, worked about 3 hours a day, to have all the food and drugs they needed it. We have robots and auto-industries, we could do it with even less.

Is not about having a fucking bearded guy to tell me everything i have to do, but is about REAL work>result. For us, not for the 1%.

>>727991015
>One day we will laugh at the concept of currency
Going back to the direct trade system are we? You somehow found a way to defy logistics comrade?

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>>727987316
lol

>>727991015
>We will laugh
Only at you anon,once the "antiquated dollar" is gone it will be replaced with something else just as dumb.

>>727998424
wow that cartoon that went with your post sure convinced everyone you're not a drooling kool-aid-steeped moron

>>727987316
https://youtu.be/AeR0hZwJcwk

Hey in here https://discord.gg/PVmXUtx

>>727998489
it's moving quickly, and it won't start in the West.

China has been struggling with its population for centuries and their only path to becoming a modern economy is to convert their population to the middle class.

When areas like China and India truly unionize against their governments, then the Western governments will not be able to withstand those pressures from outside and in and Capitalism will start it's desperate and violent decline.
>look forward to it

>>727998572
>direct trade system
lol

>>727998572
>Going back to the direct trade system are we?
>what is sharing

>>727991888
>everyone is handed the tools to do what they wish

Whos making that possible again? Even though you may not need farmers you still need someone to repair the repair robots unless ypu have thousands of back ups, in which case what is the purpose of these pursuits? Humans thrive on struggle. If we have everything handed to us (think about super rich kids who do heroin because there life is worthless/pointless/they can have anything). Its against human nature to be happy. Truely. When old people retire and stop working., free to do whatever, they pretty much just sit and wait to die.

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>>727987316

because Communism has evolved to a ridicolously gay SJW agenda

>>727998572
>ameriflaps can't imagine not wanting to profit from something

>>727998928
>gay
Are you serious?

>>727987316
Because I have a functional brian.

>>727998784
Chinas already there, class struggle have like tripled wages in a decade. Whats the next place capital will settle, Africa?

This thread is the resume of all society's ignorance about political and economy ideology's.

Sometimes I think is fucking useless to talk to someone about it, because people have their fucking ego to the sky to even consider they don't really know of a subject.

But sometimes I just want a better world... That is so close to be achievable... And I can't be alone.

>>727999103
>because people have their fucking ego to the sky to even consider they don't really know of a subject
>says the socialist

https://join.skype.com/hcj6SC4L2Nd6

>>727999199
why would I join?

>>727999014
China has started, but it's got a long way to go

If capitalists try to relocate to Africa or the Middle East they'll end up losing tons of profit to political instability. Meanwhile, more socialist alternatives competing throughout Asia, Europe and America will put pressure on these fragile third world locations and Capitalism will die that much quicker.

>>727999254
because

>>727999179
Pity if someone looped wire around your neck when you're walking to your car tomorrow

>>727999179
It's not ego to interpret that 80% of the posts don't have a minimal clue of how any of the systems works. It's a subject not so hard to study, but we don't even have sociology in schools.

>>727988444
Communism can only exist if Platos' leader ideal is set in place. The leader is not an individual, have no interests or bias, and simply is there to do the society good.
Otherwise communism's ideal will never exist. Simple as that.

>>727999383
>resorting to threats when you have no argument
Wouldn't expect any more from the likes of you.

>>727987316
Because I like to eat

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>>727999003
Not anon, but I'm pretty sure he's serious... Also, he's right; it's GAY... It's gayer than AIDS. It's gayer than cum on a mustache.....

Gay gay gay gay >gay

>>727999470
Do you mean authoritarian communism? There's other types too, you know.

>>727999427
Again, said the socialist.
If it's so great than how come it has never been shown to work in history?
Come on, show off your education.

>>727999254
we are waiting for you

>>727999644

Read this one:
>>727997559

>>727999669
>we
Who

>>727988871
Taxation is not theft, it is agreed upon by the majority of citizens. If not they can always try and change the amount themselves by using their votes, stepping into the system themselves or going against the system itself.

When the government doesn't give in you can call it theft.

>>727998558
The natives from North and South America didnt have cars, TVs, computers, radios, iPhones, advanced medicine, ovens, toasters, washing machines, everything that makes our lives easier.

These things require very large supply chains and thousands of specialized laborers to produce. It takes a little longer than 3 hours of labor to produce them. And the natives didn't spend 3 hours a day working. The reason why civilization developed in the first place was because extra time due to food surpluses allowed people to learn specialized professions other than just gathering or hunting for food. Try living in the wilderness for awhile, it's not as fun as I think you think it is.

The biggest problem is the fact that, in the production of goods there is (1) scarcity (not everybody can own a product) and (2) a lack of incentives. Why would you want to bust your ass and work 18 hour shifts after spending 10 years in rigorous education where some students off themselves from the stress when you can drop out and be a fucking welder and earn the same share?

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>>727987316
I'm a person.

>>727999716
we are number one

>>727989035
>People should be equal
>Let us continue a hierachy to differentiate people with
Pick one.

>>727999785
>posts examples of advanced technology
>iPhones
You'd be the laughing stock of /g/

BETTER DEAD THAN RED

>>727987812
1. When you write a dissertation you have to define the words you are using to remove ambiguity.
2. stateless != unorganized
3. Value is a human construct. That dollar can buy more than 1 pen.
4. exchange of labor for a wage that is unfair. Your employer gains ~90% of the wealth you generate a lot of the time.

>>727987316
I'm economically literate.

>>727999785
The thing about the labor hours, is that the other 5 or so hours, we spend making someone richer, so he can create more companies, and generate more jobs. The natives didn't have steel, machines and other technologies.

If we had fair distribution (the owner of McDonald being rich, but maybe not so much), we could have a better life and consume even more. This happened in the Ford era, where Ford workers would buy ford cars. I can directly see this in my own company, I receive 3 dollars/ hour, while the company charges 40 to their clients. There's a maximum of 2 more people involved to get the client to be our client, and do all the administrative work.
Socialist ideas can be implemented in capitalism too, and it would already make a big difference.

>>727987390
/thread

>>727987316

Why would I be communist? I'm an upper class person making around $180k a year salary in an area where a 5 bedroom 3 bath home is $450k. I gain nothing by a communist society. Capitalism has worked out pretty fucking great for me

>>727998539
Reading comprehension eh? i dont have anything, so give me half of what you own, therefore making us equals.

>>728000688
You're in my scope you fucking porky. Go eat your caviar sausages.

>>728000688
>I have no empathy
ok

>>727997563
>Why should some asshole higher ups make a million or so more dollars to do nothing...
They worked their asses up to get there or it was inherited from the work of their family.

>>728000835
>now it's half of what you own
moving the goalposts is a coward's strategy

>>728000932

> empathy

At my lowest I was making 9k a year living in a communal dorm volunteering at a fire station and having a side job outside of that time. My parents didnt help me, I got no lottery wins, no handouts. I busted my ass to learn a valuable skill and built up my income. I earned my current place in society, I don't see why I should have to give handouts to people who don't give a shit to try.

>>727999103
Define "better world", since that completely depends on the eye of the beholder.

>>727987316

>uses neet anime weeb faggot may may to get political point across

yea I think that's one sign to know you're all just a bunch of vapid morons.

>>727998558
Uh 3 hours a day? Did you ever hear of farming? You know, early to rise, early to bed, no vacations....lmao 3 hours a day. Lots of todays industries are automated, however someone still has to be there to make sure everything runs correct and machines still cant do everything. You need more robots, to repair broken ones or back up upon back upon back etc to make the inevitable failures of a back up or two not a concern. What would also be the drive for people to invent? Who cares about making a better iphone when you have one? Would you spent hundreds of hours coding? How dedicated would you be to taking a shift at the power plant or filling potholes? The details are what really destroys communism.

>>727999642
There needs to be someone who controls something but isn't interested in power. Somebody needs to make sure that society runs properly, and doing it through communities can't work on a big scale and it never will. A too scattered population will have differences and start to look differently at each other, see the US as an example.

I'm not even a fan of communism, but if it is to work it needs a leader that only stands for maintaining it for the people and making sure it is good for the people. Otherwise it will crash and burn.

>>727999622
Is... is that Maddox? Like, 2002 Maddox.xmission maddox? Holy shit, is he still around?

>>728001174
Open source everything, everyone make every software better. We can actually work together to define the primary goals of human society: Protect our habitat, discover new galaxies, or anything that could give us more meaning than having cool clothes.
Everyone can eat. Everyone can have a house. Everyone can have health care. Everyone can be happy.

Because communism by design comes with less freedom. You HAVE to "work" just to survive for just the basic necessities and it's not really a competitive environment. Competition at work encourages growth and furthers progression of technology. Companies choose the best people for the job, and people compete to be the best person. That's all voluntary for the people who do it. If you don't want to work you can live on welfare or get disability as part of capitalism. But Americans have some degree of freedom on how wealthy/poor they want to be and what they want to do with their lives.

>>728001049
well said /b/ro

>>727998784
Whats it like in fantasy land? Is it nice?

>>728000625
Social libertarian, pretty much how Denmark runs at the moment.

>>728001396
Understood. So not maybe a leader, but maybe someone with great political views that inspires everyone? This is achievable.

>>728001317
>treating an anime meme the same way one would treat an argument
Are we not allowed to make jokes anymore?

>>727997497
>this is literally what happened when capitalism spread over the world, the commons where enclosed by capital and the peasants enslaved and turned into proletarians
please explain this to me, your assertion is both vague in its meaning and sweeping in the subjects you assert it applies to

>>728001496
>freedom

>>728000424
If you didnt have a employer, how would you generate any wealth for yourself? 10/10 you could do shit for yourself

>>728000932
Except communism isn't empathy either. Anyone who wants communism isn't feeling empathy towards those who work hard and become rich. They just want to earn more money without doing shit even if it means stealing money earned by others.

>>728001794
>everyone should own a business
You don't see a problem with that logic?

>>728001555

Thanks. I used to be extremely left-wing and thought we should try to have societal safety nets to help people out, but I never got on any of those safety nets when I was having problems. My parents had money but because I had a falling out with them, they refused to help me in any way shape or form... yet the government decided that meant I didn't deserve help, so I was on my own.

Now that I'm in a better position, I'm supposed to help people out when I myself didnt' get any help? I don't think so.

>>728001482
TL;DR: Not communism. Technology is about advancing and colonising at this point. And I agree with the software thing, however there are too many nefarious people in the world to make that happen.

>...or anything that could give us more meaning than having cool clothes
As an existentialist, there is only the meaning in life that you give it. Choices give your life meaning and also responsibility, actively making choices that is. Just following the pack is not making choices, this is just an uncomplicated life where you have the least problems and go to death happily at some point, even though you were forced to live.
>>728001623
Something around those lines. All human nature goes against it, which is not great.

>>728000625
>i make $3 they make $40
Start your own company, how bow dah? Its like you dont know what it takes to own/run a business, oh wait...you dont. Your company no doubt has some sort of retirement, PTO, overhead and healthcare. Try paying for all that.

>>728001331
About farming, we have this fucking automated.
>Who cares about making a better iphone when you have one?
Literally everyone, or maybe someone that is assigned to design better phones that can be sold to a fair price?
About inventions, in the capitalist system, we don't work 9 hours to have 9 hours worth of goods. We actually work far less than that. In a world where refrigerators are not constructed to last 4 years, we wouldn't have to work that much. Consider the money that Bill Gates has, don't you think there's unnecessary overwork ?

>>727987316
People don't think about but no one country has ever been full communist it would be a good thing.

thats if they understood what real communist country would be no country that i know of that has done this what is your thoughts op?

>>728001959
>Now that I'm in a better position, I'm supposed to help people out when I myself didnt' get any help?
Have you ever heard the term "charity"? You make it sound like a foreign concept.
Yes, you are supposed to help those less fortunate than you. That's what morality is you heartless bastard.

>>727987316
Because capitalist propaganda has brainwashed me into believing the fruit of our labor is an effect of capital, that without it we would be helpless. The proletariat are immiserated for the purpose of luxury that could not possibly exist independent of capital.

It is almost over,
comrade

>>727997563
Because those "asshole higher ups" made very good decisions and reap the benefits of those decisions. You made bad decisions, either did nothing with your life after highschool or racked up $100,000 in student debt and got a shitty job that requires no schooling.

It's no one's fault but your own that you choose not to be successful. Don't blame the guys that employ you for your unhappiness.

You are more than capable of starting your own business. You either lack the balls or mental capacity to do so.

>>728002004
>>728002071
Yes, it's SO FUCKING HARD. Too bad I don't have the money to do that.... Why so? Is because for me to have more money, I have to actually have more money? Maybe I could specialize ina a University, but wait, this costs money too. Hum, you're right, starting a business is hard.

>>727987988
A perfect country under this rule would have a leader that put his people first and made everyone a equal in a since some one to serve the people its a double bladed sword too much power one hand i guess if they had power checks it just would need to be reworked looked at ants they do just that ever now and then a power struggle but ants are fucking everywhere!?!?!

>>728002317
>You are more than capable of starting your own business. You either lack the balls or mental capacity to do so.
>falling for the meme
That's what they want you to think, post again when you're the next Rothschild.

>>728002210

Where was the morality when I was poor? Where was the charity? Oh wait, because I'm a white male there isn't any. I had to do the 'ol proverbial pick my self up by the bootstraps and I did.

Why can't everyone else? Am I supposed to be paying for some over sized house or nice escalade that someone became poor on because they were living beyond their means? Am I supposed to give the money that I work hard for every day to someone who sits around in their house waiting for the food stamp check to come to the door?

No. They can go get a job. They can get two jobs. They can do the same fucking things I did.

>>728000625
>People would consume more

Completely untrue. This violates economic principles. It's about making an individual richer. Things become cheaper when more of them are produced. An increase in supply causes prices to fall. This is simple economic principle. When Now, how do we produce more of something? By expanding industry. Allowing corporations to expand allows them to produce more. When more things are produced, they become cheaper, demand for them increases and people buy more. This is why even the poorest people can afford cell phones, can afford to shop at Walmart, etc.

Also, if you impose price floors on the labor market ( forcing corporations to pay workers more ) above the equilibrium price, a surplus forms in the job market, meaning unemployment. Corporations will be forced to cut costs and hire fewer people to compensate.

This is why communist countries had stagnant economies.

>>727987316
grow up communists are actually worse than nazis

>>728002411
>Oh wait, because I'm a white male there isn't any.
>>>/pol/
Were you actually poor or just poorER then you were raised? Can you actually say you experienced true hunger?

>>728002210
Charity is fine. Charity is willingly giving to another person.

Forcing people to "donate" large portions of their income to support people that straight up refuse to be productive members of society is horseshit.

>>728002411
>They can get two jobs
Fucking Ameriflaps I swear.

>>728002542
>Forcing people
>Taxes are theft meme

>>728002210
Welfare isn't charity, though. In fact it completely undermines charity. Instead of doing something out of the goodness of your heart it becomes a legal obligation. People donate more to charity when they have less money being taken out of their paychecks by taxes, and charities have less overhead than government programs so more of your money goes to helping people. Social programs are complete shit.

>>727987316
because.. I like money more than I like you...

>>728002533

Yes. As I said, for two years my income was around 8-9k. For housing, I volunteered at a local fire station and was allowed to live in a dormitory there. I had to put in firefighting work whenever I was home and available, and then I also had another job that paid shit. I didn't have a cell phone, I used the department internet and I had a $2k car that I fixed myself when shit broke.

So yes, I've been poor and I've been hungry.

>>728002004
Oops ignore the last quote. I'm not that much about communism, there's a lot of different socialist/communist based ideology's that doesn't involve one single leader/dictator, and of course doesn't have the accumulation ideology.

>>728002632
to
>>728002612

>>728002347
Heard of a library, the internet or something of the like? Or maybe studying somewhere else, like getting educated in a simple business and getting better jobs within that business by showing dedication or something along that road.

There are many opportunities to move forward, take them! Complaining will only leave you in the dust, especially if you live in a less socialist society.

One of my friends is doing this right now and is reading a fuck ton of books while getting better positions in his workplace.

Life is hard, live with it or die. Suicide is always an option.

>>728001561
>nothing will ever change, this shall be forever

is it comforting, burying your head in the ground?

>>728002705
>Life is hard, live with it or die.
>Lol why try

>>728002409
I've already started my own buisiness.

All I do is have my two operators use my skidsteer and truck to plow during the winter, but it could easily be expanded to a landscaping company.

I pay my operators $25/hour each. The company I've got a contract with pays me $185/hour anytime it snows for both vehicles to be working.

Simple shit like this are the things most people overlook. You'd rather blow your money on useless shit than save up and invest in something that will almost certainly give you a return on your money in the first year.

>>728002612
That doesn't undermine a single point about social programs detracting from charity.

>>728002612
>using the 'calling things I can't argue against a meme' meme

>>728002674
I'm not much for communism either, but covering some basics can be good in a capitalistic market, since it can make it easier for people to stay in the market and boost the economy. However, I will never go towards socialism and communism as it stands today.
>>728002759
If live has no meaning to you, you haven't done anything big in life. Start making choices and get life going.

And if you think life is unfair, welcome to the club. There are people to help you with that and they are everybody and they hang out at the bar. Have fun, meet people and get your shit together.

>>728002705
Oh yes man, I already have to go to work 9hours/day, and at night go to the university. Of course, I could completely give up of social relationships, and my sundays too, that's actually the life I always wanted! To be a fucking product, and have to sell my ass to the highest bidder.
Don't you get that is not everyone that is going to "make it"? It's because not everyone could do it, even working hard as fuck. It's not about who deserve it, is about who have the most chances, who have been raised with better conditions, parents with money, etc. etc.

>>728002408
>country

>>728002612
>taking your money with a threat of violence
>spending it on missiles to drone strike 3rd world countries and $85 breakfast for government officials
>not theft

It's like you willingly brainwash yourself so you don't have to deal with reality.

>>728001959
damn son you are stupid. then it's your fault for having a falling out with your famil. obviously it sounds like your family could have supported you but you were such a hard headed asshole you pushed them away. and think about it this way, you already pay taxes no matter what, it gets taken out of your wages beforehand. if you had the decision, would you rather have your money go to someone that needs help like an orphaned child or somebody in the hospital to save their life, or would you rather have your tax dollars go toward a a brand new football stadium. yes tax dollars can be used to build brand new professional sports complexes. just think about that for a second

>>727987316
Because I'm realistic

>>728003136
All i see is blablablabla then it hits me...
(ANTS THEY ARE FUCKING EVERYWHERE)
somehow i laughed like i was a kid

>>728003117
Me also, but I think the talking about, and opening the mind to better things that could come even from socialism, should be always considered, and not demonized as it is today.
The most realistic possible society to achieve a "good" socialism is Rojava, at the north of Syria.

>>728003271

Yea maybe my dad shouldn't have raped my sister while my mom ignored it. Yea that's what I should have done to not have a falling out with the family and get a handout.

I'd rather my tax dollars go to things that help me. New roads, better infrastructure, stronger military, larger and stronger police force.

>>728001043
Thats communism at work.

Go tell these stupid cucks that communism is retarted https://discord.gg/PVmXUtx

>>728003135
>Birth lottery
Not always, but definitely depend on where you live. In some places it will first take effect when you have children and they get a better start, in other countries there is bigger social mobility. Depends.
And since you are working your ass off and all you do is complain about it, think to yourself why the fuck you are doing it. Being a pessimist isn't going to help you.

And not everyone is lucky, that is simply life. People die due to misfortunes or an asshole that doesn't know how to drive. That is life, full of misfortunes and hardships.
Keep doing your shit and remember why you do it. If you are in a bad position it will require a lot of dedication from you to get out of it. Misfortunes hit everyone, whether they are born with them or not.

Start creating connections and talking to people about business, it can open up possibilities of better job opportunities. My hint.

PS: If you didn't notice, I also advocate for you talking to people, keeping yourself sane! Work your ass off as you do and you will most likely do well. It is tough now and it will most likely reward you later.

>>728003488
>>728003271

lol rich-anon. He had no response. I guess that's what happens when the poor ass left realize that not everthing fits into their narrative of "everyone making over 50k is literally Trump"

>>728002472
nobody replies because they ignore economics

>>728003417
I come at socialism from a libertarian perspective, and my biggest problem is the collectivism. I won't give up my individuality for some group.

>>727996539
communist governments apparently must be centrally governed?

>>727987316

Tell me, when happens when our most valuable currency as workers (our ability to work, is rendered useless once we reach that type zero society where there is no work. His do we transition from controlling and producing as an ideology an life style to layzing about in search of narrow minded self interests? Where do we go once we aren't needed anymore?

>>727987390
Wouldn't you like those taxes to go towards something besides golf trips for your president?

>>727987634
That is brain washed by capitalism

Freedom.

>>728003488
ok hope your family doesn't get into a car crash and your savings are rekt from medical bills retard. and i noticed you didnt include education in there, well, I hope you have fun with all your dindu nuffins that could have been prevented from a proper equal education. and damn sorry about your sister being raped though honestly, I don't know maybe report him to the police or wreck his fucking life dude. still you can't use your parents as an excuse to having a shitty life, I mean you said it yourself you volunteered as a firefighter, that's charity right there, you are directly contradicting yourself. and you can claim as independent on your taxes so your family's wealth has nothing to do with you, you could jave been getting all kinds of government help, yet you refuse to pull the wool from over your own eyes

>>727987990
People are too greedy for capitalism to work. At least under Stalin Russia was able to modernize to the current era. Capitalism is a slow decline into nothingness

>>727987316
i like to think about society this way, we think we are superior to animals, yet we can't even get our homeless people off the streets, when we have thousands of empty buildings. just think about that anons

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>this entire thread

>>727987316
Because I like to keep what I earn.

>>728005369
>muh greed

>>728001875
>everyone owns a business
>nobody works at any of the businesses because they're all busy running their own businesses
>nobody has any money because nobody makes any money
>economy dies

seems good to me

>>727987316
Because true communism is not possible while humans have greed.

>>728005402
That's not INaccurate.

>>727987316
Because capitalism is the best system and its just those who succeed over those who dont. The problem is alont of people dont and they dont want to accept responsibility for it.

communism is like fascism but for libtards

>>728004516
>Implying that the billionaire that is president uses that money

>>727987316
Because it is an absurd utopian philosophy that completely disregards human nature.

>>727997563
Because we are mindless workers, we wouldn't know what to do with a $44 breakfast if given it. Most likely we would hole it away and feed on it during the cold times

>>727987316
>Bernie Sanders
>America
>Gun Free Zone

What?

>>727997570
well globalization happened

>>728005591
no it's more like every body is brainwashed into thinking they can acquire the American dream, so everybody works harder. I don't dislike our current system, yes I think everybody has a right to personal property and such, and their are things the government shouldn't touch, but we are in a society where money provides not only for extracurriculars and leisure, but also basic necessities of life like food water and clothing, but we have a system that supports the already rich and wealthy and let's then hoarde all the money to themselves without actually doing any work. it's middle men essentially, that's all they. there are two walls, the hard workers on both sides and the middle man, but neither hard worker can see that the middle man (corporations, business owners) is fucking both of them through government corruption and business manipulation

>>728005749
his wife does. Americans give her $308,000 a day so she can yuk it up at trump tower. Americans are literally cucks