Disprove Communism. That's right: you can't.

>>724214262
>>724214310
>>724214367
>>724214525
Not an argument

https://discord.gg/6PxmDfJ

we are the new communist order. you made a big mistake

Whatever u say faggy.

Read The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and then shitpost about communism. You've devoted 1-50 hours to the subject at most, talk about it when you've knocked down all IRON men, not straw men.
After atleast 200 hours of research into ideologies, and after reading the book, you may then argue it.

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>>724213815
You cannot prove or disprove a conceptial political structure. It is an idea, not a tangible object therefore it only exists in the minds of men and is in a sense not real.

Congratz on winning WWII nazis...

>>724214837
>Read The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
He was an insane nazi

>>724215447
that is not true, ideas shape not only how a brain works, but also its physical structure making them very much "real" thing. Or by saying that they are not real you mean they are like Webbers ideal type? But those can, by virtue of Webber saying it himself, be proved and disaproved and judged.

>>724213815
>be me
>go to school for 10 years to be a doctor
>make the same as the guy working at McDonalds

what a shit system

>>724213815
Communism will win, comrade

>>724215675
0_o and you base that argument on?

Communist takes brain buhahahaha what a joke.

>>724213815
The fuck do you mean, "disprove it"? It was a thing, it existed. There is proof of it.

Take a lap.

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>>724213815

>>724215766
Good argument but my point still reamins that it is a substanceless idea. Mens words and belife in it give it power and meaning. If nobody belived in it then it would not exist

Also ideas dont affect the physical strucute of your brain, that is retarded. They may affect how you think and the thought patterns which are inherent within such ideas and concepts but it won't PHYSICALLY shape your brain

>>724215675
Go tell people to stop driving their Volkswagen cars because its nazi invention.
Or tell doctors to stop using certain medical practices that the nazis found out.

>>724216283
only you will never get a man that is not shaped by some sort of belife system. Even a small lack of interaction gives horrible resoults, and at a realy young age, 1-12 months, it just ends with a dead child.
And yes they do shape the physical structure of the brain. If you are tought to fear, like, X something, then it changes structures in your brain in a physical way.
And this is true for any system a human enters, not just communism.

>>724213815
What do you mean, "disprove?" As in, that it exists, or doesn't exist? Or, that it doesn't work? It does not exist, is the problem. As with any political system, the corrupt rise to the top, and exploit the naive. There has only existed communism on very small scales. The early Christians lived as communists, and shared all things in common. A limited form existed among the Oneida community here in the USA, but it fell apart because of people's desire to have personal possessions. A still more limited form exists among the Amish, but who the hell wants to be hypocritical about technology. As for the soviet style "communism," as imposed by a small minority against the majority, that small minority controlled all the resources, and the "masses" suffered deprivation. The most extreme form of forced communism still exists in North Korea, but you can see where that leaves people - only Pyongyang has electricity to this day. There have been times when the people have resorted to cannibalism because of the food shortages. Those shortages were caused mainly by 1/4 of the men are in the military, which also serves as their internal police to keep the remaining people working so that the glorious leaders might maintain their extravagant lifestyles, and give bullshit speeches about the joys of solidarity.

>>724213815
Well, for starters, communism isn't that bad.
I mean, they have it in Norway, practically, and everybody is happy with it. Only difference is that they call it "democratic socialism".
I\ve lived in eastern block in the 80's, and now in Norway, and the only difference is that Norway actually can afford all that commie bullshit.
The first rule of comunism is that everybody shares everything together. Well, we didn't have that much to share in Eastern block, so the communism didn't work too well, as well as the constatnt russian invigilation. Besides that, it was not that bad. And now in Norway - I can only complain about very strict control over sales, especially of alcohol and on "red days".

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>>724213815

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>>724213815

>>724216690
Are you a neurologist? No, so stfu.

Memories and other things which may psycologicaly impact you may create engrams in you brain folds but will not physicaly shape your brain

>>724216732
>>724216725
>>724216714
>>724216589
>>724216546
>>724216403
>>724216327
>>724216258
but it wasnt real communism lmao
try harder nazis

all sophisticated ideologies rely on you being a metal infant who responds to pandering or bullying to succeed and spread
they're quasi-spiritual nonsense and they can't gain traction based on their own merit so they appeal to emotion
just be a man
stop awaiting your utopia and live in the real world

Socialism.

>>724216714
Do you remember how the early christian communism in Hierosolima ended? Paul, who was very much not a communist by nature being a merchant son etc, had to gather money all around Asia minor and Egypt and buy food for them, because there was a real danger that the commune would die of hunger.
>>724216725
communism is good, when you have something you can sell outside of the communist system, at a non communism price and subsidies your communism with it. It is the same thing with early christians, they play being a commune and Paul has to gather money to feed them.
Also not bad? Dude how old were you, I lived and still live in a post communism country, and I remember the lack of food in the 80s, people going to prisons, because their grandparents were politicly active pre WWII. people not being able to find a job, because they or they parents came from the wrong class. The so call "good deeds", where you had to "voluntery" do work for free on weekends. And weekends being free only twice per month, and of course when those were free you had to voluntery work etc.
It was fucking horrible, pushed some countries 50 or more years back compering to other countries.

>>724216107
innocent nazi germany and colonists :(((((

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>>724213815

>>724217074
Actualy I am in my 3ed year of psychology and my specialisation is neuropsychology. And if something shapes connections in your brain, and how the brain reacts to certain stimuli. Then it fucking does effect its fucking physicly structure.

>>724213815
We have enough examples in the past to know communism is a utopia and doesn't work, wake up you fucking downie

>arguing on /b/
>arguing on 4chan
>expecting good debate

>>724217384
>3rd year ofd education
So you still arn't a neurologist, you're a student

>effect it's fucking physicaly structure
You ain't going to pass your third year with that kind of English skills faggot

>>724217253
Well, I was a soldier back then, forced but still - so not that bad. Also my family comes from a village and belive it or not, it was not that bad. Actually living on the countryside was quite better, since the farmers could borrow government machines(tractors, etc) in an "farming center" or whatever you'd call it in english. Actually, all of this agriculture died together with communism, since capitalists buyed out all that stuff for them selfs under privatisation.
About the cities - yeah you right there - wasnt that colourfull, but people had many other perks they dont have today - like free vacation for children for example

>>724217475
suck my cock dude

>>724217475
>expecting anything from 4chan
Gj

>>724217540

You know very well that you don't need a degree of any sort to hold an idea. Stop lying to yourself and actually show evidence.

>>724217458
>believing the capitalist propaganda
>muh history
>not even understanding the history
>not even knowing what exactly happened
>not even interested in knowing the truth

>>724217540
And english is not only not the only language in which people teach. But it does speak volume, that you somehow expect or neurologists to be limited to anglo saxon countries.
>>724217540
3ed year of specialisation is done after 3 years of med school, followed by 3 years psychology. If I were lazy, I could open a practice right now. But as brain bio chemisty is the thing am interested in I still learn. In fact anyone who works in a medicin related proffession never stops to do courses, extra specialisation etc.

>>724215868
>person A gets what he needs
>person B gets what he needs
>person A and B do different work
>thinking there's a problem with anyone getting what he needs
>"i do more valuable work than A so he shouldn't get what he needs or I should get more than I need"
>thinking this makes sense
>2017

>>724213815
james bond keeps beating. case closed.

>>724213815
because it did exist

y'know, before it starved all its practitioners :)

>>724217842
>Oh, no matter what I do, I'll still only get what I need to survive. Might as well just not invent shit and solve problems now.

>Oh, even if I go to 10 years of med school I'll still only get what I need, just like the garbage truck driver who dropped out. Guess I might as well not go then, what's the point?

The expectation of massive reward is what drives innovation, the world doesn't run on altruistic feelings you fucking idiot. Thinking anything you posted makes sense is the real cringe-inducing shit.

>>724217957
>muh soviet union is a communist example that failed and starved ppl
> tfw the soviet union EXPORTED goods to - F I N A N C E - industry and weaponry
> still calling the soviet union a communist country while they had money and were exchanging goods with other nations
> not realizing that this is state capitalism
> not knowing that in communism, the exchange of goods is eliminated because the artificial construct of exchange value leads to contradictions
> not knowing that thus, in a communist society, there would be no money
> "BUT IT WAS STILL COMMUNIST THO"
> 2017

>>724218055
I don't say that anybody should have or has altruistic feelings. People should just notice that, if they want to live at all, some things HAVE to be produced and what should be produced and scientifically investigated should be planned.

If you're curious about nothing and are basically an empty shell that is merely driven by expecting a reward, then yeah, sure, do lowest tier work and enjoy the void inside.

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>>724218178
You forgot your smuganimeface.jpg anon

>>724217564
yeah and the machines, where do they came from. the tractors etc everything was bought with lend money. Same with the hotels and free vacations. Everyone else had to pay for it. In some countries they pay for it till today.
Your saying agriculture died with communism. Now collectivism died with communism, but it was very inefficient in the first place. And to begin with it was forced in rural areas. People wanted land for themself and not to work on land that is state owned. All the stuff kind of a worked for people outside of the cities, because they were double diping. They were working in factories, but had small plots of land, they had electrification, free med care, and since the 60-70s no longer had to give up most the stuff they grew on their private, which is an anathema to communism, fields. So by the time 80s hit, they were selling stuff, getting cheap loans from the state, getting cheap coal etc. So yeah life could have been good. But it was not good because of communism. It was good because people from rural areas could partly live as non communists in a communist state. It was less good in places where people from rural areas could not. Like all the people durning collectivisation in Russia.

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Just go to any ex usssr country in eastern europe and ask about it. Srsly, you western leftist cunts are idiots.

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>>724218178
Yeah, you're right. You probably know way more about communism than lenin and stalin. Like, we're soooo totally stupid for thinking that in [current year]. What were we thiiiiinking?

What a fucking clown.

>>724218426
>>muh soviet union is a communist example that failed and starved ppl
>> tfw the soviet union EXPORTED goods to - F I N A N C E - industry and weaponry
>> still calling the soviet union a communist country while they had money and were exchanging goods with other nations
>> not realizing that this is state capitalism
>> not knowing that in communism, the exchange of goods is eliminated because the artificial construct of exchange value leads to contradictions
>> not knowing that thus, in a communist society, there would be no money
>> "BUT IT WAS STILL COMMUNIST THO"
>> 2017

>>724218320
>implying capitalism doesn't already account and plan for things to be produced and scientifically investigated

The fuck is wrong with your head? Nothing you just described is exclusive to communism or in any way lacking in capitalism. You're a fucking tool and a clown.

>>724217842
boris badinov and natasha never win so communism is doomed

>>724218439
To know what I have stated, you merely have to read the first chapter of the capital. Did you ever dare to actually look at the theory or are you just basing your replies on the superficial reflections of others?

Especially realize this:
>not knowing that in communism, the exchange of goods is eliminated because the artificial construct of exchange value leads to contradictions

>>724218055
If that was the case then reasonably the sciences and (creative) media would be barren wastelands, since it borders on privilege to achieve a livable wage in either and statistically it'd make more sense to go elsewhere.

Have a few med-student friends and I suspect the field would be just fine without cash-incentive: although admittedly I know one who would be right out if not for the financial security.

>>724218439
The goal was never and has never been achieved. agreed?

>>724214567

>not an argument
>implying "prove me wrong within my own arbitrary frame, you can't? Haha i win again" is an argument

>>724213815
Sure, if it's so good why aren't you living in a communist country?

>>724218178
only what they exported was weapons and raw materials and food. You guys were fucking raiding other warsaw pact countries for food, and even then it was not enough. I remember how trade with soviets looked like. 6 months of sending them food. Time to pay up. Russians send old tanks saying those are the payment, and infact those tanks are costed like new tanks, so now it is us who own them money. And when we had to trade with them using rubels, which no one wanted, we had to pay them in dollars, which we first had to buy. And lets not forget the exchange rate soviets had in their official trading with other warsaw pact countries. 1 rubel=1 dollar. When even in fucking moscov itself it was 10 times as much. with the small correction of the fact that a private person could of course not trade dollars, that was illegal, but owning dollars was perfectly legal.

>>724217842
>person C decides what person A & B need

There went that line of reasoning.

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>>724218600
You're telling me to think for myself, yet you're the clown trying to argue that "communism will totally work this time!" Grow up kid.

>>724218548
well if capitalism "plans" then the plan is bad, right? Capitalism would plan for 800 million people starving and 30 million of them starving to death each year. What plan is behind this? Is capitalism saying: oh yeah we plan their death because fuck them or is it maybe something systematically leading to ignorance towards those that cannot provide exchange value in order to get what they need on a market? it's the latter, my man, it's the latter ... i.e. no one gives A FUCK about your needs if you cannot provide exchange value and I think production should be based on what people need.

Furthermore the planning, which indeed exists, is NOT targeted at peoples needs but at the generation of exchange value and is done privately, i.e. some people SPECULATE about what could most likely GENERATE EXCHANGE VALUE.
> actually considering this to be a good plan
> 2017

>>724217842
My family did work at a soviet collective farm so i'll fix it for you:
>person A is doing some work
>person B is imitating some work
>person C is always drunk, does nothing, also steals shit.
>everyone earn the same.
>Eventualy person A gets demotivated, nothing gets done. Soviet union gets bankrupt.
enjoy your unrealistic utopia faggots.

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>this triggers the leftist

>>724218710
This is not what I'm saying. I'm just telling you the truth and the truth is stated in >>724218802
>>724218515
>>724218600

>>724218625
yeah totaly. A person who works 12-16 hours a day, with no leave and who has to learn for 10-15 years to get the basics done. Should earn as much as someone who sits for 8 hours in Lidl, doing mindless work.

If something requires skill it always costs more, if something generates extra value it always costs more and requires more pay. Sure you could create a system where you would have doctors who do not care about their pay. The thing with such a system is, that you would not get great doctors in such a system and the number of bad doctors would at best stay the same comparing to a more capitalists like system.

>>724218339yeah, you got a point over here.
Never said the system was perfect - none is.
And the problem with russian style communism was that it was xenophobic and they didn't have money to actually afford communism. Norway today on the other hand - they can afford it.
The system of itself was fake stimulating all branches of industry and ended with overflowing of products which noone needed, and lack of those people really needed. (classic exemple: make metal plates fabric to give people job, then build a melt works to melt all the metal plates you didnt need in the first place and to give job to even more people. Then use the newle melted scrap metal to make more metal plates). Cities were the worst, remember a friend of my mother who traveled over 300km to stand in cue for 9hrs to buy about 1 kg of sausage for christmas. But in villages they had meat, eggs, milk etc, all fresh and self made, for a relatively small fee to the collective office.
I know Russia was even harder - and out of what you saying that is where you have your experience from.
Well, it's Poland in my case. As I said, it was not that bad over there, especially after the East German border opened.
Just so it's said - now, at least oin the case of Poland, it's 180 degrees other way - the cities are pretty nice for living, the villages are riddiculously poor and isolated.

>>724218827
>>>muh soviet union is a communist example that failed and starved ppl
>>> tfw the soviet union EXPORTED goods to - F I N A N C E - industry and weaponry
>>> still calling the soviet union a communist country while they had money and were exchanging goods with other nations
>>> not realizing that this is state capitalism
>>> not knowing that in communism, the exchange of goods is eliminated because the artificial construct of exchange value leads to contradictions
>>> not knowing that thus, in a communist society, there would be no money
>>> "BUT IT WAS STILL COMMUNIST THO"
>>> 2017

>>724213815
The souls of 100 million innocent people beg to differ.

>>724213815
Its failed cuz excessive military spending, poor living c onditions, lack of innovation and Its for faggots...

>>724218941
the thing is that no one would have to work these hours.

Today it is like this:
Technological advances reduce the time needed to produce a good. The result surprisingly is not that people have to work less but that less people work.

communism is a very shallow and childish idea
it implies everyone will always work for the better of their community
its shit like you would only expect from a kid, or a miss universe speech, no one that doesnt live inside a safe bubble could ever take that seriously

>>724218339
>>724218946
you pretty correct about the lending though. Poland is still paying for those

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>>724213815
Show me some memes comrade

get gud at life pussy

>>724218802
You can talk all your commie bullshit you want and it won't change the fact that people naturally look out for their own self interests. It's evolution. It's hard-wired and it's helped us survive as a species as long as we have. The free market is the best option we have for containing that human nature in a way that's least detrimental to others directly. That's why communism has and will always fail. Human nature. The ones at the top get too greedy, every time. The ones at the bottom get fucked and ask themselves "why am I allowing this dictator to decide every facet of my life for me?" Even with it's imperfections, capitalism still provides a greater amount of freedom and well-being than communism. That will never change. If it bothers you so much, move to a country that's more suited to your commie bullshit. But you won't do that, right? Because you don't actually believe the shit you're spewing.

>>724218055
>>724218827

>The world doesn't run on altruistic feelings you fucking idiot

Well, in the defense of communism, marxists do claim that in order for communism to work, consciousness of people has to evolve to a point that everyone does what they do best, without being bothered that everyone gets the same.

>>724219179
yeah it's just that the self-interests would be satisfied more if it the production was planned according to the NEEDS rather than according to the generation of exchange value

>>724213815
best. thread. ever.

>>724219279
so 1st you'd need to evolve the human conscience to that point, and only AFTER that you can start discussing how to implement your communist bullshit
you are working on the wrong step then dumbass

>>724218946
Ok, but this means that communists can work only in small closed communities with access to high value raw materials. And those communities have to stay closed, because if their population would start to grow rapidly the system breaks down.
Another words it is british people that pay for gas and fuel that pay the cost of "communism" in Norway.

Don't say the villages are isolated and poor. they have a higher rise of standard of living then people that lived in the city. Sure a lot of young people left, but the same thing can be said about most cities aside for Warsaw. Plus there is EU money. Sure the jump is not as high as it was in the 40s, but it is hard to make the same sort of civilisation jump. Post WWII rural Poland outside of some western parts, was living in XIX century. And while electrification, roads etc are a great thing, one has to ask oneself. If the changes were a communist thing, or did they happen because the world doesn't stop and progress of some sort always happens.
I have family in Poland and they were working in germany in the early 90s, then started buying out land and buildings in Mazur area, like a lot of people that didn't spend their money on alcohol and cars. Now they are rich, and there was a ton of people like that. At some point in the 2000s I remember people whose parents were low manual workers, buying out old PGR.

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>>724216107
ftfy

>>724213815
karl marx real name was Chaim Hirschel Mordechai

and Rothschilds paid him to write communist manifesto

>>724219062
no

>>724219394
>>>>muh soviet union is a communist example that failed and starved ppl
>>>> tfw the soviet union EXPORTED goods to - F I N A N C E - industry and weaponry
>>>> still calling the soviet union a communist country while they had money and were exchanging goods with other nations
>>>> not realizing that this is state capitalism
>>>> not knowing that in communism, the exchange of goods is eliminated because the artificial construct of exchange value leads to contradictions
>>>> not knowing that thus, in a communist society, there would be no money
>>>> "BUT IT WAS STILL COMMUNIST THO"
>>>> 2017

>>724219369
I understand that human consciousness must evolve first before implementing it.
Also, that was my first post you imbecile.

>>724219483

The sovjet union was a communist state (Engels: "Communism is the actual movement that aims towards the abolishment of the class society"). But you seem to be one of those hippies who made a great strawman for the new right. Good job.

>>724219483
you can keep repeating that bullshit all you want
it just shows how badly you missed the point that its not possible to remove the need to exchange goods
USSR went for the state capitalsim because there was no other option, the other option would be to starve even more than what they were already starving
face it, your beloved ideology just doesnt work

>>724219019
The thing is that to be a good doctor you have to work that many hours. Take a surgeon. many hours at work, you have to train because it is a very physical work, then you have to keep up with all the new stuff, so you have to read and do courses and classes. I have friends from med school, that had their first "free" days from work after 16 years and almost all of them hated it.

You just can't compare someone doing a job that is 9-17, and they stop thinking about it. To someone who thinks that 24 hours is too short of a time to do everything that has to be done.
That is why the people from group 2 are paid more.
Same thing with people that invent new stuff. How much in money is someone who invents a new procedure that can save 3-4k lives per year worth?

>>724219369
>evolving human consciousness is possible in capitalism

thats why we need the communist state as described by Lenin.

>>724219660
>>724219701

Point proven ahahaha

Communism is a nice idea, but realistically, if it's going to function without people getting resentful of each other or utterly unmotivated to fix themselves or their lives, you need to have functionally limitless resources atleast on an individual basis.

This allows people who aren't of use or don't want to be of use to just fuck off and be quiet and not get in the way, and people who do want to be of use and do things to also do their thing without begrudging the useless their stuff because hey, we're all getting our needs and wants met.

This is the real problem with communism in the real world: we don't *have* limitless resources, sure we might not have scarcity, but there are limits on how many phones or how much food or how many homes that there are to go around, so some people can have everything they want, others can't and that will remain the case for the foreseeable future. Capitalism regulates that so that people getting what they want is directly linked to productive action, communism doesn't.

>>724219501
you missed the point, I wasnt saying you posted before or not you imbecile
I was saying that instead of defending communism, you people (not just you retarded anon, stop thinking everything revolves around you) should 1st work on the evolving of consciousness you just claimed
if your communism is possible, it would come as a natural step after that
again, you are all working in the wrong step

>>724219766
except you didnt prove shit
both posts go against what you are trying to say

>>724213815
Why would I need to disprove something that has disproven itself many many times?

>>724219730
we can all see how that worked

>>724219903
because some stubborn idiots still want to keep trying to implement that shit even tho we all know it wont work

>>724219928
Plus by the time Lenin was writing about the communist state he was already sick with syfilis. And that does have a huge impact on the cognitive aspects of one mind. The dude was not even crazy, well he was but that is a separate thing, he was just sick in the head.

>>724218515
We may get to a point where machines do the majority of labor and communism is achieved through the loss of value in material goods

>>724219845
Communism is about changing the basis, namely the economic structure, by collectivizing the means of production in a revolutionary act.
Note that the superstructural change obviously can not happen right in the same moment. So the highest motivation for performance, which as proven in multiple studies is not money but social pressure, will still be there and motivate people to work. I.E. classic gender roles and other social norms will still exist. The change in actual society comes later with the realization that competition is unnecessary as proven in the economic base.

>>724220097
sickness and genius are old companions for a reason.

>>724220101
machines will revolt and kill mankind way before that retarded ideology can even be put to work

and the reason machines will kill us is precisely because they can tell how retarded it is and will just get rid of the hosts spreading that cancer

>>724219850
>you missed the point
>you are all working in the wrong step

I'm missing the point?
Where exactly did I claim that implementation of communism should come before the evolution of consciousness?

>>724220247
only because the idiots have a hard time telling the difference

>>724220101
Are you crazy? you will get two groups of people. Those who have stuff or can work/develope new machines, and HUGE massess of people that are no longer needed. That is the biggest joke of communism, it is all about revolution of the working class, progress and industralisation etc. When the end game is that workers are needed less and less.
Can you imagine the socioeconomic impact of lets say stores without cashiers in them? 1/3 of female population would lose their job. Man are more lucky here, because until someone makes a machine that can do a man dangerous work and it cheaper then a man, man are safe.

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>>724220029

>>724220316
Nah, because they are the same.

>>724220275
when you are actively doing the 2nd step in a thread meant to try to spread communist bullshit instead of working on the 1st step

>>724220431
to idiots

>>724220471
Where is your argument tho?

>>724220427
why dont you give the example then anon
implement a communist society with your friends
with your family
give the example to the world of how it can work, and the world will follow
since you wanna imply you know better, prove it

>>724220247
That is a Russian mad wise man thrope. And he was a different kind of mad. Not the useful " I will work till I die, because I am a maniac" or "I will train 17 hours a day doing this to became a master". It was the tumors rot my brain kind of a mad. Nothing useful in that. Just look how looked at the end of his life.

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>>724213815
Russia go home, you're drunk

>>724220510
several quotes back ? you are free to go back and read if you missed it

>>724214625
https://discord.gg/FmJMaAz

>>724219730
>We have to evolve human consciousness before communism can work

>But we need to implement communism to evolve human consciousness

And these people wonder why they're not taken seriously. Look, the US has overwhelmingly rejected communism. Go play little Lenin in venezuela or something faggot and stop trying to push an agenda that's likely to get you punched in the teeth if you run into the wrong old man.

>spread communist propaganda
>make revolution
>disown the rich
>people take ownership of the means of production
>build computer systems to calculate what is needed and distribute those tasks to factories
>suddenly we have to work 3 hours a day instead of 8 because there is no meaningful overproduction anymore and we dont need to conquer foreign markets with our newest yellow tictacs
>build machines to do most of the manual work
>suddenly people realize that having a "carreer" was just a meme
>being lazy becomes cool and hot
>social chauvinism collapses
>our kids are educated by the communities altogether so retarded parents cant screw them up anymore
>good future

where is my mistake again?

>>724218827
Today
>Farm robot does all the work
Person A, B and C, now all are always drunk and do nothing.

Sounds good to me.

>>724220737
Not the same people, Person A (Evolve human consciousness before communism can work) is a hippie college student libtard who makes a great strawman for you retarded rightists.
Person B (me) says that obviously society wont just change overnight and doesnt make the assumption that i myself am ready to live in a communist society because my parents didnt tell me i could be everything.

>>724220847
on the 1st step, spreading retarded propaganda and thinking you'll achieve anything positive from that

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>>724219298
Communism will never lead to the fulfilment of self-interests, at its very core you have to strip away the interests of normal people in the guise of helping "society". I mean look at the cars of communist nations, you had to wait years to get them and when you did get one, its a fucking piece of garbage that has 3 cylinders. Communism can in no way lead to competition, meaning that if a country is communist they cannot progress any farther from that point, only having to deal with outdated things compared to all other nations of the world. Communism is fucking trash, and you deserve a good ol' visit from Pinochet's Caravan of Death

>>724220847
you forgot to add the parts where:

>"make revolution" goes about as far as your neighborhood corner because most adults with half a brain will club you in the head because anyone with any net worth is generally happier under communism versus under communism

and

>the paranoid "dictator in charge" decides to wipe out you and your entire bloodline because somewhere, high in the communist bureaucracy, people with the same eye color as you are now labeled "enemies of the state" for some obscure reason that doesn't really make sense and there's no way for you to refute it

>>724221023
Well then, point out where my propaganda is retarded please, so i can become a better agitator ;-)

>>724220452
Except I'm not. I don't believe that communism will ever work and I'm not trying to spread it. I'm just pointing out the one thing most people forget or don't know when discussing communism.

Also, I do believe that human mind will evolve one day to be less greedy and more altruistic, or we will just go extinct. At that point, I believe that communism-like organization of society will come naturally, without it being forced by a political party.

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>>724220847

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>>724221016
At what point did I say or imply I was a "rightist"?

This idiot literally just admitted that the left's end-game agenda is communism.

>>724221016
ok dude. lets say it is possible to have communism, and it will not end up bad like it did all those times before. Why is communism good? How would you get progress, if you removed the encite to be active ?

>>724221101

They cant club me in the head if i shoot them first.

Also if the paranoid dicator in charge becomes a fascist we just shoot/gulag him, the revolution never ends my friend.

>>724221121
read the whole thread
its retarded because communism doesnt work
all the things you tried to imply that would come after that, would never be possible under communism

>>724221199
Everyone who doesnt want communism is not a leftist lol. They might call themselves one tho.

>>724218946
Norway is far from communist, comrade

>>724221199
Youre using classic rightist type of argumentation technique. I know people like you and well, and your answers are always the same.

>>724221260
what makes you think that you lead the revolution ?
we are also the revolution, and we are against you
we'll shoot you before you can even leave your mom's house

>>724221279
I have not seen any real arguments in the thread. Please focus your criticism only on my post >>724220847 so i can improve my ideas.

>>724219389
well EU moneys are a different thread, but they make huge differance, and imho in 10 years made possible for 1 25years industrial, economic and cultural jump, as well as helped taking away the control from mafias and oligarchs - which, with all do respect - came from families like yours, who bought goverment stuff cheap during the privatisation in early 90's. That also made it possible for HUGE corruption problems. Also people who should never be in power what so evere, because of lack of education and/or intelligence - made it thru to high end goverment jobs - because of corupcy and general comraderie - whic also gave a huge bloback for social trust for goverment and police, national unstability and constant dogfight over power. Stopping this is the only reason i find EU productive.
And just for the record - those old PGR make a fucking bonkers nightclubs and/or agro/eco tourist facilities, if you've got a bigger sparecash to invest

>>724221392
The people lead the revolution, and i am one of them. Yes, i know that you fascists will try to do that, thats why i give you my boot to the head whenever i meet one of you.

>>724221260
You basically just missed the point entirely. The majority of people are happy with capitalism (or more happy than the alternative of communism). People also look out for their own self-interests and seek to preserve the freedoms they have. Club. Gun. The tool doesn't matter. The point is, you're one goofy half-a-retard going down the street spouting dumbshit every average person knows doesn't work and, in the event you had some weapon, there would be 100 others who are just waiting for their chance for someone like you to come REEEing through their neighborhood. Go to Brighton Beach with that dumb shit you're spewing and see how far your "revolution" gets. I'd wager about half a city block, tops.

>>724221405
dont use pre-school logic if you want to improve your ideas

>>724221229
I assume you mean active as productive, i.e. generating value from work. The answer is, peer pressure.

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>>724221373
Explain my "argumentation technique" in detail since you seem to know it so well. I find it quite interesting you can determine an individual's political leanings by the structure of their words and the way they position them. I'll wait. You sound so full of shit it's coming out your ears.

>>724221461
the people only follow anon, the leader lead the revolution
when you understand that, you'll understand that the whole system you defend is just a mean for failed people to seize power they could never achieve through their own capacity and become the dictators they always wanted to be

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>>724213815
If you're not just shitposting and really want to understand what's wrong with communism, I recommend reading the exchanges between Marx and Bakunin over the First International, where the Bolsheviks kicked the anarchists out for failing to support "the tyranny of the proletariat."

"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called `the People's Stick'." -- Mikhail Bakunin

>>724221461
>"Waaa people are facists!"
>because they don't want to adopt a dumbshit ideology that has been proven to fail anytime it's been implemented anywhere on the planet
>"I'm going to randomly assault strangers who disagree with my batshit thinking until they come around and see things my way!"

Uh....is this what the left has degenerated into these days? I don't think you know what fascist means because you're the literal embodiment of it.

>>724221433
Dude my mother and my father, and everyone else in my family worked their butts off in germany in the early 90s. My mom, sister and aunts were working triple shifts cleaning, working at stores etc. My dad and all my uncles worked construction, and durning the summer we all, including the bigger kids lieing about their age, worked the fields. your telling me that we are mafia? All people that didn't drink themself to death were like that. Gathering stuff durning the summer to sell, being ants at the border crossing with Russia. All those people were making money and then bought land, build summer houses, adapted old PGR buildings in to Hotels. Ton of tough hard work. the only people that have it bad in Poland, and am excluding those who are actualy ill here, are those that sat on their asses doing nothing. Everyone could go work in germany or england or norway. That the people in power were stealing stuff? sure, but that happens in all systems, and will never change.
As education goes. I remember how it was in the 80s, people did 8 years of school then mostly girls went further. Now almost everyone has done some sort of university or high school. And I mean the useful stuff, no feminis glaciology, like agriculture, trade, law, IT.
The only problem rural areas have right now is that they are dieing out, because most females left for the city or went to other countries and do not want to go back. That is a HUGE problem. My brother is 36 and he is seriously thinking about getting a bride from ukrain, because there is 0 females anywhere near he lives. And he has a lot of land, all the machines needed, he sleeps on cash, has a renovated our parents home, making it super high class. Yet all girls over 15 want to go to Bialystok or Warsaw.

>>724221602
but peer pressure would be pulling you down. Most people are not active, nor productive , nor creative. So in a group they would be trying, and by the way this did happen in communism countries, to force everyone to be as avarge as possible.

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>>724213815
communism > everyone equal
>centralisation of powers
>more power to ruling peeps
>power turns anyone to dictator
>commie turns to authoritarianism
>censorship to keep people dumb
>people die
>reform to capitalism

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>>724222025
sorry man, you misunderstood me - not saying your family is mafia. Im aware of how much work people did to acomplish all that. I myself worked my ass of in belgium in early 90's. What I'm saying is that many of those people came back, bought off stufs with the money from wester europe, and made themself local lords, paying off police and offices, and in general made the corrupcy and national debt even bigger. Im aware of the aging of rular areas. In my primary school in swietokrzyskie we were 300something kids in 1968 or something. Last time is was wisiting the village there were 80. think it was 2010 or something. not only girls are leaving though, it's a general thread. My sisters kid from the very same village is 22 now, there is like 6 people of his age in whole place, and above 20 in england, germany, france etc. And thats only for the 1994 kids from the particular village.
Anyway, the metropolisation and dying out of rular areas is an general problem of whole europe - not only poland, Let's hope robotics will take over the food production

>>724213815
It's awesome, go live in Russia or North Korea, dude. I bet you'll enjoy it.

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>>724213815
economic calculation problem

>>724222443
Russia is federalist now not socialist, the clue is in the name

>>724222396
Ok, I give you swientokrzyskie is like mazowiecki without the warsaw.

>>724222511
Russia is fucking monarchy it always was and it always will be.

>>724215868
I doubt people would care as much if education was free and they didn't have to live in slums while they were studying.

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>>724222386
>pinkterton anti-union force is equivalent to Mao killing 80 million people
commie logic

>>724222520
not getting what you mean there

>>724222596
Fake news, not a single person died under Chairman Mao's dictatorship and you have no authoritative proof to the contrary

>>724222520
sswietokrzyskie is NOT like mazowieckie. Mazowieckie has industries and trade centers. Swietokrzyskie has alcoholics, forests and scrap metal hunters. And 1 mine of some cheap jewlery stone, as long as i know

>>724213815
because it's a romantized concept that doesn't work when applied to real people.
we came into existence on the wrong side of the river and had to learn to steal, kill and use every trick we have to get what we want and/or need. It's human to be greedy, ravenous, hedonistic and while, on paper, communism might be a wonderful idea, there will always be SOMEONE who sticks his fingers too deep into the pot and will end up taking as much as he can, leaving everyone else in the dust.
Basic human nature desproves viability of communism.

>>724222246
how do u get laid if ure not awesome tho?

>>724222796
Its within Human nature to change its own nature, anything less is inhuman: all the socialists have to do is exterminate the sociopathic people who take too much

>>724213815
There's nothing to disprove. In theory it's alright, but you can't have a well functioning society if it's set up to cater to cucks that have no ambition or anything meaningful to contribute to the world

>>724222596
>Using the country that killed 80 million people industrializing itself and ignoring food to produce most of what you use in the west and accumulating a massive debt to them in the process.
It's actually laughable the western state of living is totally dependent on the good will of China and yet yours is the system that's ''working''.

>>724222366
>communism
>commune
>centralism

an hero pls

>>724222978
lmao westerners are utterly morally bankrupt

>>724222929
sociopathy is a function of human behavior, it is in every single one of us and it's evolutionary sense is to avert rulership of tyrants in small groups. At least that last part is widely theorized to be the reason everyone can show sociopathic behavior under the right circumstances.

>muh human nature
>muh economics
>muh capitalism works

can i vote trump now?

>>724223063
ask china, north korea and japan. or everyone in near and middle east and africa. humanity itself is morally bankrupt and hypocritical.

>>724223088
you can vote in anyone you want

what you cant do is defend retarded ideas and want people to not see you as a retarded person

>>724222978
It isn;t. You are actually entirely dependent on our tech services.

>>724223142
actually most of the countries on those continents attempted a socialist system and it was only due to militant intervention by the west that they became to resemble the west

Iran, iraq and Afghanistan all went socialist and the intelligence agencies of the UK, the USA and others purposefully put islamists in power there

The world isnt the problem, we are the problem

honorable mentions:
Pinochet (west)
Baby Doc (caribean)
Park Chung Hee (east)

>>724213815
People who argue for it are completely unaware of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, so I doubt they're gonna be the "big politician" they want to be. Plus, people who argue for it don't want the labor jobs. They want the political jobs just to boost their ego.

I can verify this, as I was once a faggot who believed in communism.

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>>724222596
Ok then how bout capitalist usa's liberation policies since ww2, this need for oil is killing more innocents than the chinese famine did (the real reason most of the people in china died not because of mao),

>>724223591
Um not true id happily take a labour job over a political one i know a few more people that would too who are also communist

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>>724223088

>>724223666
Chinese famine was caused by commie land reforms, you ignorant cunt.

>>724223591
That fallacy only applies to national groups and not to ideologies

Communist and socialism are both words that have definitions that societies have to adhere to or risk being defined

Its not like you can accuse some cornishman of being scottish, nor can you accuse the soviet union of being democratic or classless

>>724223778
Well, I thought the same thing, too, but then I started part-time at a farm. Shit's GRUELING. I can understand why many citizens try to avoid jobs like that.

>>724220376
You failed to notice the western civ is heading that way in mile steps. But diference is communism might try to still care for all people, capitalism will proly make (have) plans to get rid of all "extra" population.

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>>724223666
Going to need to see a citation for the bullshit claims you just made. You're either trolling or incredibly stupid with your vague-ass nonsense.

>>724223842
there were no famines and any claims to the contrary are fake news

>>724223809
shut up, america doesnt have a free market and you know it

>>724223901
shut up fake news

>>724223842
The chinese famine was caused by bad weather, drought and natural disasters faggot yes some of it was poor planning on maos behalf and he himself admitted his failure there but not all of it was planning

>>724224092
This is a lie, 0 communists died during mao's tenure and any claims to the contrary are fake news

>>724213815
Communism has never worked onc3 in its history. It ignores human instinct

>>724224349
If you want to see your capitalist breadlines, visit any wal*mart around the times that foodstamps are disbursed each month

T. ignorant capitalist

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>>724224501
its human nature to change its own nature, and bipedal apes who argue in favor of predatory nature arent human

>>724224627
No, capitalism only is responsible for good things because...?

>>724224501
Communism has never actually been tried in history As it can only work when every country is communist, all those countries people claim are communist arnt ie

Ussr actually soviet
Dprk actually democratic republic
Cuba was actually the only country to truely have socialism but not communism

>>724224627
>wants to blame capitalism
>not the actual problem
Niggers, you koolaid-chugging liberal shill.

>>724224323
Rule #1 of the new Terran Socialist Republic: No Stalin(s)

There, i fixed communism

>>724224799
>pro-capitalists are worthless inhuman racist scum too

Gee how did i guess that

Predators getting BTFO ITT

>in b4 animosity from some inhuman shitbag

>>724224799
Communists and socialists arnt liberal you fuck we are progressives and hate the liberal cucks as much as you with their fucking identity politics,

Also you are trying to tell me that the reason these big national companies dont leave places stricken are because of niggers and not because of finding other places where they can exploit workers cheaper

>>724214262

>implying that nazism didn't get it's assed fucked by communism

>>724224790
So its an untested hypothesis?

Every communist wannabe blames the people in charge rather than the system. And lives in fantasy land where reward for effort is completely ignored and soulless drudgery with no ambition is supposed to solve the worlds ills. Somehow

>>724213815
It's entirely presupposed on the basis of self-alienation, marxs early philosophical work which was undoubtably inspired by hegels philosophy. This matters because we cannot prove self-alienation as a theory, and even if we could, it may not be due to material reasons as Marx as postulated, and instead be due to some misrepresentation of our spirit, our relations to others, or some other phenomena. Marx has said, the superstructure, i.e.,communism, is to be constructed on this alienated theory of materialism. It's unscientific to run an economy in a way such as this. Communism has failed when implemented, and bears no chance when juxtaposed with better, more rational, economic systems. It's a philosophy.

>>724225244
Communism working hand in hand with liberalism

I'm not worried about the rise of the alt right, in fact if history is any indication we're going to benefit greatly from the treaties that arise out of destroying whatever nationalist antisocial government arises to threaten the western order

>>724221640
Faggot

>>724225320
>so (strawman)?

Fuck you and your logical fallacies

>>724224790
The only thing left to be tried is your own personal interpretation of communism. It's been tried as an economic system, and because of the rather idealistic nature of the philosophy, it has failed. This could be because, as you've stated, it's never been Implemented; but a claimed such as this carries a sort of negative connotation with it, one of sorts declaiming it of a valid theory, that is, if we were to look at it scientifically. It also is purely based on individual representation of the theory, due to some believekng it has been entirely implemented. This argument can also be applied to every existing economic system and is the excuse in which all apologists flock to when situations prove them to be on the wrong side.

>>724213815
you eventually run out of other peoples money
SAGE

>>724225572
Thats when you go currencyless

>>724225572
>communism is about taxes
bluepilled af

>>724225526
No, fuck you and your lack of argument.

Failfag

>>724225526
Claiming logical fallacy is almost, in itself, a fallacy. If you're in any degree competent, you could have easily interpreted what the previous comment meant, (although I am not OP), and developed a suitable response. The idea behind using logical fallacy as a valid response exists purely for the incoherency of posts, yet as the previous comment was entirely understandable, albeit exaggerated, I don't think fallacy applies entirely, and i believe you could have garnered up a response if you wished to continue conversation.

>>724225568
Socialism is always defined as democratic and all governments who claim to be socialist are undemocratic

its actually very simple logic, im utterly flabbergasted youre having such a hard time understanding this

>>724225720
you typed all these words to present an illogical argument against formal logic, i really dont see a logical basis for your assertions

>>724225572
Unlike murrica where they constantly print more and more new money

>>724225825
Oh jesus its one of THOSE threads.

I thought it was a discussion of the pros and cons of communism but its actually just pretentious pseudo intellectual wankers posturing

>>724225932
memes sure are good at presenting a simplistic lie

Theyre false consciousness made manifest

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>>724225320
Effort and hard work can still be recognised in a communist society, esppecially if that effort benefits society in some way, but at the same time it stops people from profiting on others hard work as capitalism allows

>>724225957
>pretentious

Anti-intellectual trying to shut down discussion detected

>>724225572

Yeahh sure you run out of others money i mean there is no money in a communist society but suure you can run out of money, fucking dult

>>724226052
What incentive is there to really work hard and innovate if your reward for innovation is that you live the same lifestyle as the dude who vaccums the floor every morning?

Give me the vacuum cleaner and the easy life thanks.

>>724225761
If I've represented what you've said wrong, I'd urge you to consider restating what you've meant. You've seemed to simplify down what you're saying to an almost obvious point of view, one of which I responded to already. If you mean to say communism has never existed because of its implicit philosophical genetics, then I've already posted a comment within this thread regarding that. You must be referring to self alienation are you not? That is the sole influence of a belief such as yours, for if man, as in humanity, isn't entirely free from their alienation, then communism cannot exist. Would I be right in assuming this is what you've meant? For if it's not, and you're strictly speaking in economic terminology, then you're right, and I'm unable to understand what your point is, for it seems rather incoherent and unfinished.

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>>724225987

The problem with communism is same problem all political and religious systems have, greed.

Communism is just more efficent than capitalism at taking things away from people.

>>724226156
Fake news, nobody advocated for this explicitly

stop relying on strawmen

>>724225825
It's only illogical if you've managed to comfortably stay within the confines of current logical conception. Not even that, it's rather just a gross critique of those who resist argument by cheap excuse. Anyone could have understood what the comment meant, and although it's a fallacy, it doesn't render it entirely unreadable, and definitely doesn't void you the possibility or choice of responding.

>>724226361
wow, you should publish your ideas in a peer-review journal so i can take then seriously

>>724226294
Its not a strawman. Its an argument.

Stop diverting when you dont have an answer faggot

>>724213815
Disprove the celestial tea pot.
Or the invisible mechanic unicorn that I have hidden in my closet.
What do you say? It's my responsibility to prove or disprove any idea or ideology I adhere to?
Gee wiz.

>>724226156
Well no not entirely the term each according to ability to each according to need means that everybody will get the same basic allowance according to their need (ie a single person gets less than a family as a family needs more) but all other allowance will be based on how much work they contribute and the type of work they do, ie a nurse working 6 hours will get more than a janitor working the same

>>724217111
Not a real scotsman

>>724226453
Its not an argument if nobody made the assertion youre rebuking. Thats a strawman fallacy

>>724226687
Doesnt apply in this case, communism has a concrete definition unlike the national designation scotsman

>>724226559
Sounds very arbitrary to me. What about a nurse who busts a gut and covers 30 rooms vs a nurse who spends all day in the staffroom polishing her nails?

Bit extra or same same?

And who gets to decide these pay scales? Is a single young doctor worth more than a single young nurse? The education and skills are vastly different.

>>724225321
This comment section must be shifted towards the philosophical concept of communism, for that's the foundation on which all else stands. Take this down, which you can, and the entire superstructure falls. I blame late 20th Century university and the unchecked rise in scientific understanding for the divergence of philosophy and politics. They're reliant on each other, politics more so. All political theory is postulated on philosophical basis, and if one isn't aware of the implications, then one can't properly discuss politics. All I've seen in this thread is rehashed arguments from Marxist themed websites, Austrian school disciples berating communist thought through bias rather than pure understanding, and mostly people who lack any knowledge whatsoever on the topic. Marx had a philosophy inspired by Hegel, this is important because capitol was written in complete adherence to this philosophical bearings, and in it you will find philosophical assumptions as presuppositions, being built upon as if true, laying behind all major communist ideals. This is a rather heavy implication for the system as its rooted deeply in idealism, a field completely unscientific and untestable. His economic theory, although conceivable, is his philosophy manifested.

>>724226850
If you want, your job could be figuring all that shit out, or you could obstinately oppose progress because you hate liberals

Your choice

>>724226850
Well the nurse who spends all day in the staff room will only get the basic allowance provided before their work is added as there will be checks and balances in place mutually agreed upon by the people as a whole to stop people taking advantage of their position, that depends while the skillsets are different the nurses are the ones more on the frontlines than doctors i know this from personal experience

>>724227042
Well i would need to be in the inner circle so i could pay myself heaps and live in a bomb house. Fuck living in a 2 room flat with all the doctors and engineers.

And therein lies the human nature problem. Which has never been solved, nor ever will be.

>>724213815
In its history it has never been successful.

>>724227194
ok then lets just carpetnuke earth:

-more expedient route to the final stage of human society
-totally just
-we're constsntly threatening it anyway

Its the only logicsl alternative to socialism

>>724227295
untrue, it made josef stalin and fidel castro very wealthy, which is the base level for success within the capitalist framework

>>724227326
Or just carry on withe the succesful system that discovered microchips and sent men to the moon.

Dog eat dog. Reward for effort.

Toughen up

Communism will happen, it's just a matter of time

>>724227447
sorry, competing economies lead to competing militaries, its inevitable

>>724214310
> MANNIFESTO

>>724227544
Sure. Thats competition. Point?

Evolution is competition. You are you because your forebears survived the competition that is life.

Getting all hipster and denying our competitive nature will solve nothing. No one has designed a feasable alternative system that actually works... because it denies human nature.

>>724213815
Ok

Communism is based on the premise that man, in his natural, primitive state, has no sense of ownership and that the concept of individual property is a modern contrivance.

Archaeology has repeatedly shown us examples of burials where man, in his natural, primitive state, has been found with artifacts that prove he had a distinct and keen appreciation of personal ownership and that artifacts found buried with such remains are doubtlessly the result of a primitive and natural sense of ownership that has evolved in man as an evolutionary necessity rather than a modern contrivance as posited by Karl Marx.

Since the fundamental assumption of Communism is demonstrably false it follows that any further assumptions made by Communist rhetoricians are based upon that initial false premise. This is also supported by the consistent and failure and chaotic nature of socialist/communist systems of government.

>>724213815
Never worked ever.

My parents have experienced both Cambodian and Russian communism. Their entire families were killed.

Communism will never work, because of human greed and a thirst for power. It is for that reason that no country has ever become true communists. The furthest any country has achieved was Socialism.

Communism always ends up as a brutal dictatorship. ALWAYS. Why? Because Socialism is the dictatorship of the proletariat. Anyone threatening to the regime must be killed or silenced.

It's not communism people fear, it's socialism. It is reasonable to fear socialism because killing dissenters is allowed if it benefits the revolution. Murder justified by the state will not go down the throats of the people well.

Communism fails because it assumes that people will be happy with what they are given and not strive for more. Which is a false premise. People are greedy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=298Cw3_qGwE

>>724213815
it's moslty AMERICUCKS .
even egy european /pol/acks would have nothign against actual enthinc socialism ,whatever the fuck