you faggots will argue about anything
From a pure practicality standpoint, square is the obvious choice.
square is obviously vastly superior
Nobody arguing here, we all know square is better.
Newfags can't triangle bread
Square bread tastes like ass
>>723582833
Both are good, the ingredients used to make the bread are what make it good or not.
Round is better. Most good sandwich meat isn't cut into fucking squares, but I'm guessing we have a lot of land o lakes ham scarfing faggots in here.
>>723583365
unsliced bread is the best invention since sliced bread
fuck sliced bread: dries out and can't choose your own thickness
There is no better bread than moonseed bread and anyone who disagrees with me is a dead man walking
>>723583555
Trips confirm
>>723583383
i agree with this anon that the ingredients are more important
but i personally prefer round over square and circular like >>723583510
is the best form
>>723583449
mfw I can fold deli meat
>>723583591
ok, calm down
>>723583001
>>723583180
>>723583295
Do you like spam meat and spray cheese too you fucking degenerates?
ROUND
JUST TO TRIGGER RETARDED SQUARES
>>723582833
Different bread for different occasions.
This is a bread
>>723583717
I AM FUCKING CALM DON'T TELL ME HOW TO FEEL
>>723583706
It's still fucked from a square standpoint. I bet you don't even staggerstack two slices of cheese on an oblong round piece of bread.
>>723582833
NO WE WON'T FAGGOT
Square allows for the most efficient use of transportation resources. In a wasteful world, it is the logical choice.
4chan threads are square
4chan is gay
square bread is gay
you're gay
OP is a faggot
>>723583847
NO IT'S NOT IT'S A SIMPLIFIED VISUAL REPRESENTATION OF BREAD YOU GODDAMN WASTE OF SPACE DEGENERATE PIECE OF SHIT
>>723584012
i prefer to buy fresh bread where it is baked, so i neither have transportation problems on my end and i sure hope the bread hasn't be transported before i buy it
Bread brains
>>723584076
2D bread > 3D bread
>>723584227
YOU EVEN FUCKING WHAT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SXTIuYzVfQ
Am i doing it right???
>>723582833
Both good at different things. But, I would choose round bread because there is more flavor variety.
>>723582833
>>723584052
kek
>>723584325
Geez what a weirdo
>>723584196
Though your preference is understandable, the most efficient method of producing sustenance for billions of humans is to have it manufactured in automated facilities and transported to the end consumer.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Okay, guys, I'm sorry I lost my temper. I've had a very rough day and seeing this bread thing kinda pushed me over the limit. I am truly sorry
>>723583555
>dries out and can't choose your own thickness
yep
buy unsliced bread, wrap it bread in a kitchen towel instead of a platic bag, it will remain crispy on the outside and soft on the inside
I prefer half-rounded-half-squared bread also called the squared rounded bread (and not rounded squared bread!).
Square bread sliced is for toasts, best to put in a toaster and with best thicccess to fit in it.
Unsliced bread is best for fresh sandwiches, with crunchy crust and soft middle. Too bad it Goes stale way faster than Square bread. Yet nothing feels better than munching on a freshly cut, still warm round loaf and putting some smoked ham with lettuce leaf and a slice of tomato. And The crust... Gotta love the crust man.
i prefer round bread
they're the exact fucking same
>>723584786
Americuck detected
>2017
>Still calling it bread
Get on with the times, faggots
>>723584617
Gonna have to try this life hack
>>723583555
>>723584604
kek
It's late night program (half an hour episode all night long) on I guess KiKa (Kinderkanal = children's channel). More like for the drunken
Also: German masterrace says squared
This is now a comic thread
>>723584966
Checking you checking that post
>>723582833
uncut bread
This is not bread you amerifuckhead. Signed à french fag.
>>723582833
round bread is a bread for a poor person who can't afford a baking pan
>>723582833
I make bread for a living and I prefer making the round top loaves because the squares bread has to be proofed perfectly or it will year the bags during the packaging process.
>>723584992
Holy shit I remember this comic from a few years ago. I fucking love it.
>>723584753
>being this retarded
wew. end your misery bud
>>723583759
Yes
>>723585422
>never ate good bread
I pity you
>>723585531
Does anyone else have a nice comic to share?
daily reminder that round bread is the bread of choice for any gourmet normal/sandwich based restaurant and that if you tried a "gourmet" restaurant that served square bread sandwiches it was most likely not a gourmet restaurant or a really extreme experiment/fusion between ironic trash food culture and gourmet ingredients
ROUND BREAD OR DEATH
>>723583591
But is it round or square? I think then this will settle things
>>723585618
and by round bread I mean this kind of bread, not square bread round-shaped
>>723583001
The round bread is so much better
>>723584076
Sounds like you voted Hillary. Please shut the fuck up.
>>723585894
square bread can be stored without the loss of space,therefore a truck that is a square shape will transport more square bread than round bread,making square bread cheaper and therefore superior to round bread
>>723585788
>square bread
>round-shaped
If square is not the quality you want to qualify bread with, use a different adjective you autists.
>>723585894
I'm getting tired of typing captchas. I'm sure you can still find the rest of this one online somewhere. Just make sure to get the full version with 134 images.
This comic isn't bread related amd is a 2 in 10, but you are a great dumper man, just try to have better taste nect time, keep it up
>>723586042
Dump more pls, I Got invested in the characters
>>723586106
https://e-hentai.org/g/376571/ed5352d7e9/
>>723586042
>>723586041
Please dump your personal 10/10 then
>>723585999
can't disagree with those trips
Round bread master race.
>>723584486
why are you here?
>square bread is superior
You faggots retarded or some shit? Hexagonal bread is crealy the superior bread here
>>723586163
is it just me or is this comic unusually realistic?
>>723584052
Bread that tastes like ass.
>>723582833
round bread is easier to bite but square bread fits in the toaster
>>723586586
I think thats the point
>>723586163
Dont stop dumping now...
square bread is superior faggot
>>723584537
Only if transportation is heavily subsidized, hiding the real costs of shipping everything from centralized hubs. When transportation costs are included, local production of staples like bread is more efficient.
>>723582833
Squares are Toast you shithead, not bread
>>723587044
>toast is no bread
>>723585975
Niggers aren't allowed to have opinions so pipe down shitstain
>>723584052
forgot to mention: saved
this is my fetish
>>723586971
The cost-saving effects of mass production outweigh the additional cost of transport. This would not be possible with inefficient round bread.
Also, of course, there will be a point of balance between being too centralized and too disperse. In either scenario, square bread is the more efficient, and thus logical, choice.
>>723584006
>used bread
>>723583001
You're wrong though.
Not only is round less artificial and preserved it works well for paninis.
>>723586524
Oh shit. It is hard to argue with that.
>>723588108
Its suitability for paninis is irrelevant. Square bread is a more practical option to cost-effectively feed billions of people.
>>723584604
Fuck you! Bernd das Brot is the pinnacle of comedy!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbyVuDT4VIY
>>723588888
not singles,not dubs,not trips,not quads but quintuplets
This is fucking retarded.
Any round bread fags in this thread need to swallow everything in their medicine cabinet.
>>723588888
FUCKING PENTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>723588888
witnessed!
>>723584405
yeah man.
Like, can I have a bite?
>>723587865
No, it doesn't you illogical half-human. Look at the huge cost of installing and updating the interstate highway system in the 20th and 21st century United States. Almost all of the damage caused to those roadways was caused by heavy trucks, but the trucking industry only paid about half that in taxes and other fees. So that, along with another 20% from the general pool, was subsidized by the public (not to mention they would have had to pay a lot more if the federal government couldn't just take the needed lands via eminent domain). If trucks had cost even two times as much to move (and it's a lot higher), long haul trucking would have died long before God-Emperor Trump declared war on the Andorians in order to build a harem of blue-skinned women who could make him sandwiches with round slices of bread.
>>723586163
http://www.xxxhentaicomics.com/album/375/up-scaled-cheer-by-forview-(custom-edit)
For all those that wish to finish it
>>723588888
Holy spaghetti monster nigger, what a fucking waste of a post
>>723589007
I don't have a medicine cabinet, but I have a bread compartement, and it houses round bread only gaylord
>>723582833
dubs checked.
whst is there to argue about? I like bread. I eat bread. It is so simple. Op, you are a simple faggot. kys.
Praise kek.
>>723589432
Nigger, we just checked a quintup here in the replies, clearly this post is important
>>723589097
False. There are numerous flaws in your reasoning.
First, the federal government of the USA spends about $41 billion per year maintaining the interstate system. However, in 2014, there were 170 trillion vehicle-miles driven by transport trucks. Even if all of the cost of the interstate system was caused by these trucks, which is a dubious claim itself, that amounts to a cost of $0.00024 per vehicle-mile, or about a quarter of a tenth of a cent. The simple cost of fuel for a mile of transport dwarfs this easily.
Second, you focus only on one part of the transport system. Your argument excludes shipping bread by rail and cargo ship.
Third, your attempt to elicit an emotion response from me by insulting me is both indicative of a lack of reasoning capability as well as futile.
Your argument is narrow, misleading, mathematically incorrect, and thus wrong.
>>723589097
>>723590137
why are mommy and daddy fighting again
>>723590504
Silence!
>>723582833
Round goes easier into the asshole
>>723582833
round is usually a higher quality
>>723582833
Round tastes better but square is more practical. /thread
>>723590137
Who is shipping bread by rail or ship? Didn't know there was a market for stale bread.
Maybe you can agree that the trucks cause a shitload more damage than cars. And roads have to be beefed up just to handle them regularly.
>>723583847
>>723584076
its toast you retards
>>723584537
Quality and enjoyment of nutritional intake is more valuable than practicality of it when the focus on quality is of a trivial cost.
>>723590137
Spock, your human half is showing in your adherence to illogical premises.
The federal government's transportation fund only covered a tiny fraction of the costs. Even studies 20 years prior to the date you chose (2014) concluded that the total cost of "pure" subsidies of ground vehicles in the U.S. ranged from 300 to 935 billion USD. Accounting for even modest inflation, and considering that those analyses ignore hidden costs like those imposed by eminent domain, a modest estimate is more than a trillion dollars per year.
Your analysis of the cost per vehicle mile is also based on flawed premises, because the number of miles driven is irrelevant. We're not comparing two different transportation systems carrying loads of bread the same distance. We're comparing the costs of the current system, with scrapping the current system and replacing it with more local models.
You are correct that this does not account for bread shipped via other means, like rail, ship, or plane; but admitting there are additional costs on top of the ground vehicle subsidies, while very Vulcan of you, harms your position, rather than supports it.
>>723591440
The quality of bread isn't under debate, only its shape. Even stale bread is still edible. Purely as a form of nutrition, square bread is the more cost effective to manufacture centrally and transport. Its pleasantness to consume is irrelevant.
Trucks are indeed damaging to the world's infrastructure. However, to use this small additional cost as an argument against the cost effectiveness of shipping bread is both narrow-minded and illogical.
>>723583849
Please stand by for a public service announcement:
No one likes you guy who always has a reaction pic of the same character. It does not bring personality to your posts its actualy quite annoying.
>>723584617
>>723584916
I will try it too
>>723592604
Okay thanks bro. Seeing how I came here specifically to be liked I'll definitely keep your advice in mind. You learn something every day, right?
>>723593162
You're Peepee, right? I see your posts in a lot of threads!
>>723591870
Incorrect. To compare the costs of any transport system, we must understand that this cost is a product of distance. Thus, the cost of a vehicle-mile is an appropriate calculation. Also note that this calculation was done as a way of dispelling the illogical claim that any form of transport is inherantly cost prohibitive because of its subsidized nature. An estimate of this subsidy must be made to show that it is insignificant.
You are correct that I have admitted the existence of costs of transport, but this is a meaningless fact to point out. All things have costs. We are not discussing the existence of costs, but instead the comparison of cost reduction by manufacturing bread centrally and the cost acceleration of increased shipping distance.
Also note that even "more local models" will involve some form of shipping. The suitability of square bread to be more efficiently shipped is true even over short distances. Thus, though your argument is clever in its attempt to misdirect the overall discussion, it is arguing a point that has no relevance to the bread-shape question posed. It is therefore illogical.
>>723582833
cat bread is best bread
a
>>723582833
>>723582833
round is used for sandwiches well the square should be used as a side appetizer
Square bread is only good for slicing or short bread.
>>723592128
Mass produced and distributed bread is of a necessarily poorer quality than locally produced bread. Most of said local read is round.
>>723582833
I'll take toast with pantsu topping
>>723593962
Do not confuse quality with taste. You are correct in terms of its flavour quality. Its nutritional quality, however, is not correlated to the localness of the bread.
As bread is food, and its primary purpose is for sustaining life, a bread that more cost effectively does this while sacrificing taste is a logical trade off. Thus, the desirability for bread to be tasty is irrelevant.
>>723593533
You are persistently holding on to an illogical position. Only aggregate cost is relevant. Cost per vehicle mile is irrelevant, since we are discussing shortening or eliminating the supply chain.
You are correct that local production will involve some shipping costs, but there are few studies showing the alternative costs of a more local model. Since we lack sufficient information, it would be illogical to jump to a conclusion.
And you are arguing that flavor and preference is irrelevant, which is also flawed reasoning. Simple things like good, round bread have significant correlations with happiness, and morale. Which in turn reduces civil strife and the chance of rebellion.
>>723593561
and what a day for it
>>723594484
The trade is not worth the cost. If one were only concerned with sustaining their life, then a nutritional shake would be more practical. Pursuing bread specifically in order to sustain ones life implies a certain degree of concern for the mechanism by which that life is sustained. It would be inconsistent to discard such a concern after already choosing the less efficient form of sustenance.
>>723594414
What is your favorit flavor of pantsu anon? Strawberry, vanilla, or [spoiler]chocolate[/spoiler]
>>723595240
I prefer pussy flavor
>>723594532
No, we were discussing the subsidized nature of the transportation industry. A vehicle-mile cost analysis shows this subsidy to be a small fraction of the actual cost.
You are misleading here again. I am not comparing the costs of highly-centralized or highly-localized production systems. I am arguing that as all production systems involve some form of distribution, and that square bread would lower distribution costs, it logically follows that square bread would lower the costs of all production systems, regardless of their nature.
Correlations with happiness is also irrelevant. As happiness is an emotional construct it is, by definition, illogical. Using bread to reduce civil strife and rebellion is a misuse of resources. Simply achieving Kolinahr would eliminate these entirely.
>>723595535
did hiromoot kill the spoiler tag?
>>723595827
no, there've never been spoilers on /b/
>>723595893
the faggot typed it wrong
>>723595601
A trillion dollars may be pocket change in the Federation, but in 2014 it was a major cost, no matter how you divide it. You are using cost per mile to hide the artificially low total, which is not only inaccurate but deliberately obfuscated, suggesting an emotional rather than a logical response
And numerous species have not achieved Kolinahr, nor can be we expect them to in the immediate future. See your captain's species, for an extreme example. Since happiness among humans not only reduces problems but actually increases productivity, it is a logical goal for the foreseeable future.
>>723595057
Your argument is entirely correct. Any form of solid bread is certainly the more inefficient method of nutrition compared to others. Were we able to liquefy bread and transport it by pipeline, then inject it intravenously this would be more efficient. Indeed, as you suggested, any form of bread is highly inefficient as a nutritional source compared to other foods. This argument could continue until a pure nutritional type of fuel was created in a tabular format that dissolves on the tongue, achieving very high levels of nutritional efficiency.
However, your argument is as misleading as it is correct. The question posed was not about bread's suitability as a food compared to others, but as a comparison between two bread shapes. As this was the original question, these are the boundaries within which our discussion must occur. Thus the only two options that can be argued are either round bread or square bread. From a practicality perspective, square bread is better.
>>723583001
>Square bread
>Round bologna
I bet you touch yourself at night
>>723582833
square bread master race
>>723596008
no I did not
>>723596389
> a slice of ham appears
>>723596268
You are missing my point. I am not arguing that it is an inefficient form of sustenance, that is my premise. My conclusion is that since choosing bread is already inefficient, it would be more logical to choose the type of bread that yields the highest amount of pleasure for its consumers.
>>723596156
I made no attempt to mislead. The absolute cost of this per-mile calculation is itself misleading, but my argument was that this is a small fraction of the total cost of a mile of shipping. This shows that as a percentage, the government's "subsidy" is small. Absolute values are of no concern. Proportions are the more meaningful calculation.
You argue for happiness as a practical measure of impact. Even were this true, the happiness gained from bread is insignificant to the nutritional impact of that bread. Thus using bread as a happiness tool instead of a nutritional tool is wasteful. Using any tool for a purpose best suited to another tool when both are available is illogical.
>>723583759
Spam is delicious tho
>>723597176
>>723583365
Underrated post
>>723596984
And I can argue the same. You claim that using bread as a primarily nutritional tool is flawed because there are better nutritional tools out there. Then by this logic it is also a poor choice as a pleasure tool, as there are many more effective ways of attaining pleasure other than via bread. Your argument falls in on itself.
>>723597402
You're right, why do people eat bread anyways?
>>723597544
I only eat it because it's easy to put shit on it
>>723597327
kek
>>723588888
>
MY LORD! ITS A PENTA-POST!
>>723597035
You used an incorrect total cost to generate a per mile cost, and have been persisting in using that artificially low per mile number even though the total cost has been correct. And a more direct way to compare the total cost of subsidies would be to compare the US$1 trillion estimate of "true" subsidies to ground vehicles with the total cost of the private industry. Comparing a false cost per miles to nothing is no comparison at all.
And the nutritional impact is irrelevant, in an industrial society with excess food capacity, like the U.S. in the 21st century. Any shortages are logistical and social challenges, not due to limited supply. In those circumstances, the value gained from intangibles like satisfaction is most important.
>>723596895
>calling this abomination ham
>>723597856
Ick! Square ham is superior to round ham!
>>723597544
Unknown. But as it as a higher nutritional impact on most people than it does a pleasural impact, the logical assumption is as a life-sustaining foodstuff.
Square bread sits in the toaster better. And more room for peanut butter.
>>723597950
False.
>>723583383
If you cook the bread wrong it could be made of the same stuff and suck. Problem with square bread is that the corners are thin which over cool and that area of the bread becomes tougher and drier, which inevitably dries out the rest of the bread.
Round bread is better tasting.
>>723597950
There's no square ham
ham > compressed blocks of meat leftovers
>>723598015
Technically speaking, bread is pure sugar. I'd say it ranks equally low on both.
>>723583759
exterior subhumans would prefer round instead of
squared bread
>>723597844
And these social challenges include poverty. Were the cost of staples such as bread to be reduced by focusing on manufacturing square bread, it would in turn make the food itself more available, thus reducing these shortages.
Also, you assume that we are only discussing individuals of an affluent first-world country. The scope should be extended to the entire Earth as food shortages are a well-known global issue. You must expand your thinking.
>>723598514
It is chains of simple carbohydrates, and not technically sugar. Though even sugar is an effective form of nutritional energy.
>>723598932
It is, but our society overindulges in sugar and carbohydrates. That's why theirs an obesity epidemic. I'd imagine many people would be better off without bread in their diet at all.
>>723598657
You are showing a poor grasp of human sociodynamics. Poverty cannot be solved by reducing the cost of a simple staple. Its manifold causes are wealth disparity, logistical issues, mental health concerns, and many other factors. The unit cost is trivial.
You are correct that poverty is a global problem and different factors must be considered when regarding less affluent nations, but we have been talking about a single nation in the distant past (20/21C U.S.). To become truly logical, you must discipline your mind and focus on a single problem, instead of allowing yourself to be distracted by minutia.
>>723598512
You've just been fooled by the roundham monopoly. Here's a picture of a real pig, without photo manipulation.
Round hams are formed by inefficiently boring circular holes through the square pig, and discarding the waste.
>>723584430
kek
>>723599635
And you are showing a poor level of reading comprehension. I did not argue that inexpensive bread could solve poverty. I argued that inexpensive bread could solve food shortages.
The scope of the problem is by no means minutia. The only reference we have to the US is in the calculation of a supposed transportation subsidy, a necessary simplification as estimating road costs of underdeveloped nations would be time prohibitive. However, it is you that must focus on the problem. The problem as stated is a comparison between bread sizes. There was no indication that this problem should be contained to the United States. Your assumption of a domestic argument shows rigid thinking.
>>723584012
Depends on one's point of view. Yes square bread more effectively fills a trailer, but that also means more weight with its attendant challenges. Not to mention the immovable object/unstoppable force problem . Bread packed too tightly would be smashed. In the long run, it's irrelevant given the number of faggots that cut the crust off.
tl;dr both kinds exist for a reason. Each has pros and cons.
>>723599277
This may be true, but we cannot limit ourselves to the affluent few. You cannot deny the impact a single loaf of bread would have on a starving child. As I stated to another, you must expand your thinking.
Also, whether the human race should eat bread at all is irrelevant to the issue of that bread being round vs square.
>>723600246
I believe the quaint colloquial term of the time is "goalpost shifting". You have lost the argument, and therefore are claiming that the argument is really about something else.
In any case, bread size is also irrelevant. It's shape and localization that matters, and locally-sourced round bread has been demonstrated to improve morale on seven colonies adjoining the Klingon empire by up to 11.7%.
>>723582833
y'all postin in a bread bread
>>723600372
More weight is the goal. The most expensive thing to ship is air, as it is wasteful.
Though both exist for various reasons, these reasons are illogical.
All this talk of bread has made me hungry.
>>723600567
Ironically, those who are most obese are the impoverished, since they're forced by their budget to eat unhealthy foods.
>>723582833
They both have their advantages in certain situations.
Also, how the fuck does this thread have over 200 replies?
>>723600906
Yes, calories aren't an issue in the first world. Or the whole world, for that matter. The world produces enough food, it just doesn't get where it needs to go, and number of factors encourage unhealthy diets even where calories are plentiful.
>>723600653
Your simple dismissal of my argument by stating I "lost" shows that you have expended what little logical ability you started with. There is no point in debating against conclusions with no substance.
I misspoke. I meant "shape" instead of "size." My apologies... Vulcan is my native language.
Please provide the source for your Klingon study.
>>723600906
Your obesity observation is indeed true of developed countries. In many other places worldwide, food scarcity is a serious concern.
>>723583001
No trips
No truth
>>723601689
True, I'm not referring to 3rd world levels of destitution.
>>723601407
You've been repeatedly referring to an irrelevant cost per mile calculation derived on a total that was off by more than an order of magnitude. You have never addressed that, therefore you have failed to present your case.
And see the latest studies by the Federation Office of Bread Assessment for their conclusions on the Klingon colonies.
>>723601689
It's only local scarcity though; there is a global surplus.
And while there are supply chain problems, the real issues tend to be political. Any donated food ends up in the hands of warlords who use it to retain power.
>>723602274
I'm saddened that you're still hung up on this cost per mile calculation. I wish I could help you understand that it is irrelevant. The argument for square bread is that it is less costly to ship, regardless of what the current cost of shipping is.
Indeed, if the cost of shipping is astronomical as you propose, reducing it is of even greater importance. Thus, square bread is the most logical choice.
Also... even Vulcans enjoy Caturday.
>>723602712
Saddened? Enjoy? I'm sorry Spock, but you must learn to restrain your overly emotional human side. It will help you realize that the cost per mile calculation was yours, and that I was the one who was arguing it was irrelevant.
And if shipping is local, the net benefit is minuscule. So the morale benefits of round bread, cited above, are far more beneficial.
>>723602474
In Africa, perhaps. However, there are literally billions of people in both China and India for whom cheaper food would make a big difference. Food is less of a political tool in these places.
>>723582833
Sliced Bread
>>723599821
\thread
>>723589163
Finished
Shit was good
>>723603193
It was only done in response to the subsidy argument, which is the truly irrelevant part of the discussion. It would have been easier if I had pointed this out earlier.
Your morale-boosting effect is based on a fictitious study and therefore cannot be used in a logical discussion.
>>723603253
In Africa, in much of the Middle East, Latin America, and across much of Asia. Corruption is rampant, as anyone who works on the humanitarian side can tell you.
And China and India are still political problems because there is excess global capacity, but they're not feeding their people. Lowering the cost in a particular area might help in that limited area, but it doesn't address the fundamental structural problems.
>>723603603
So by that reasoning, since you're playing a fictitious character, you cannot participate in a logical discussion.
>>723604102
I'm not fictional. I'm speaking to you from the future.
>>723604102
Ad hominem. The identity of those taking part in a debate are irrelevant to the validity of the contents therein.
>>723604560
Nice helmet
>>723604841
Thanks.
>>723604785
We're discussing a real world issue using fictional elements as a wrapper, and he broke the 4th wall to dismiss one of those fictional elements, while portraying a fictional element, which renders his fictional element moot, too.
Has nothing to do with ad hominems.