I believe that abortion is murder. Why is this so unpopular?

It's only a problem if you believe all murder is wrong. I'd call it justifiable homicide.

Because you think others should think the same. I don't give a damn what you think as long as you don't push that view on me.

>>719354508
I believe the murder of babies is wrong because it takes human rights from people who have no voice but the murder of murderers is punishment for a horrific crime. I see the argument but I think they're different.

>>719354823
That is literally the arguments that black slave owners had. I have the right to say your convenience don't trump the rights of another human being just like people had the right to say you can't own that slave

>>719354232
with world overpopulation abortion, forced desexing and killing anyone over 45 is right around the corner
crying libtards will be first to go

>>719354996
Think of it more as mercy. I don't care if you believe life begins at conception or not. I believe every child should be brought up in a loving environment with enough resources to give it a good start in life. If this is not possible, the child suffers. I'd rather end the suffering early than prolong the torture the babe will likely endure otherwise.

>>719355369
Your so called God endorses abortion. It's called a miscarriage. If God is ok with abortion, who the fuck are you to think you know better.

>>719354232
>implying life matters

I support post-birth abortion.

>>719355644
Heh, I like you.

>>719354232
It's not an unpopular belief in the USA.

>>719355603
Kek

>>719355525
Chapter and verse faggot. Also I'm not op

>>719354232
>murder is a crime that is defined
>the US doesn't define abortion as murder
>abortion is not murder
You're still killing something though, it's just not murder.

>>719354996
>>719355477
I don't view it as mercy. I take the other approach. I believe the net effect of contraception is identical to an abortion.

>>719355644
Agreed. Humans can't really remember much before age 7. Until this point, or until they are really conscience, self-aware beings, abortion should be legal.

>>719354232
abortion or murder? neither of them is popular...

who told you they were?

>>719355477
That's okay that you don't care. I agree babies need living homes with two parents. The fact is there are 2 million couples waiting to give the baby that love. I think we as a society need to be more careful with birth control, or better yet stop being sluts.

>>719354232
>live in an age where you can literally give birth to a child and walk out the door after handing said child to a nurse with no repercussions at all
>still choose to force a premature pregnancy and give birth to a dead fetus

>>719355441
lol what

>>719354232
Of course it is. But it's ok to murder your own children. It's in the bible

>>719356114
> better yet stop being sluts
Not a practical solution.

>>719355369
A fetus is by definition of the law not a human.
You can not practice abortion but you have no legal ground to complain about it.

>>719354232
It's unpopular because a) it's 2017 and b) you're a cunt.

use the fetus for stem cells

>>719354508
This. I believe abortion is murder, but i don't think any murder is wrong. Justifiable or not.

>>719355525
my so called God? Don't know where you are getting that. That seems like a child's argument anyway.

>>719356114
Then we come to the argument of rape and failed contraception. Any smart slut will wrap up or at least pill up, but accidents happen and sluts do not make good mothers. You can't staple their legs closed, so at least give the child peace before it suffers at the hands of its parents.

>>719354996
>babies
They're not even babies yet. They're less than that. Study medicine if you're interested

Also, no lives matter

>>719355603
I do believe life matters

>>719354232
I believe that masturbation is murder. Why is this so unpopular?

what if that baby grew up and murdered you?

>>719356321
It is, after all, the current year.

>>719356114
>stop being sluts
DO YOU NOT KNOW IT'S 2017!?!?!?
GET OFF YOUR MORAL HIGH HORSE AND LET PEOPLE LIVE THEIR LIVES!
except for the unborn children of course.

>>719355441
>2017
>believing in overpopulation

>>719356404
Really? What gives you the right to think your moral view is superior?

>>719355936
If you can't remember before age seven something's wrong.

>>719356448
>smart slut

>>719356051
I'm on a college campus.

>>719356555
nice trips

>>719354232
murder? the thing you're "murdering" isnt more than a few cells, it doesnt feel. No murder in my eyes and perfectly fine.

>>719356259
That aspect of the bible is very sick.

>>719354232
Bringing a life into this horrible world when you can't even take care of yourself is more cruel than 1000 abortions

>>719356300
Killing your black slave in early America wasn't against the law. But we were wrong, that was evil. Spot the difference.

>>719356051
Abortion is really popular

Just recently I over heard a group of cool
fraternity dudes talking about how they're
getting their 4th abortion. I was kinda jealous
myself, but yeah. It's actually really popular

>>719354232
Believe whatever you want. Just don't expect that your religious beliefs should be forced on others by the government.

Also - to the "life begins at conception" people: That's bullshit. Life begins BEFORE conception. The sperm and the eggs are alive. Heck, your hair follicles are alive. The question is not "is it life?" The question is: when does a slimey tadpole like bit of life get a soul, and when does it become a person.

>>719356259
See this>>719355783

>>719356916
When it has consciousness
Look into medicine if you're interested
Doctors have found that the brain can't form a consciousness at the time people usually get abortions

>>719356448
I think abortion is okay if the life of the mother is in danger. if you're raped I think the emotional repercussions are dangerous, like suicidal thoughts ect. In that case abortion is a reasonable solution. That's such a small fraction of abortions. Most abortions are women and men saying "Eh its inconvenient for me."

>>719354232
The animal industry is far larger in scale and more cruel than abortion. Are you vegan OP? If not, then you're a hypocrite.

>>719356916
Sperm isn't human and the egg isn't human. The embryo is.

>>719355603
This

>>719357109
Agreed. That's my point. We are on the same page

>>719356504
That's not fair. Sperm will not have a beating heart in 5 weeks. It will die off, After conception there is an obvious difference and it's intellectually dishonest to say they are the same.

>>719357312
Oh nice
I do like your reasoning from your earlier post
>>719356916

>>719356932
God kill jesus off, abraham can kill isaac. Abort that child of yours. It'll be fine

>>719356468
Nothing matters. Nothing has purpose. Everything exists without reason.

It's your job to give your own life purpose, but ultimately that purpose does not matter and doesn't effect anything or anyone else.

>>719356508
What if it grew up to save someone from being murdered? I don't see your point. I'm not saying they're going to cure cancer im saying they deserve human rights

>>719354996
Technically by creating them you are taking away the rights of the voiceless. The only way to morally justify bringing a life into this world would be to have consent from the being that it wanted to live, before it was created, and since that's not possible then by simply reproducing you are taking away rights from the voiceless.

Also, if abortion is murder, then masturbation is genocide. Sperm cells are living beings right?

>>719357241
A fertilized egg is "human?" Define "human." without consciousness, soul, self awareness? no, it's an embryo. It is not a person

>>719354232
There are too many goddamn people. Even if a zygoye or embryo qualifies as a person by some arbitrary standards, human life isn't as valuable as you think. It might be immoral by your standards but who are you to tell other people what to do with their body? People are going to do what they want, might as well regulate it.

>>719357515
Holy fuck this

>>719356668
So let me ask you when does life begin? At birth? We know babies by a certain age can feel and writhe in pain during abortions, so what point do we say life or no life?

>>719354232
Because you're a faggot.

>>719356744
2 million couples like myself waiting to adopt.

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>>719357241

>>719357810
There's lots out there so what keeping you from doing it? Not enough white ones?

>>719354996
They're not babies dumbass. They abort fetuses. If you're too pleb to know the difference why bother posting?

>>719357491
>God kill jesus off
Jesus is God dumb ass. You clearly don't understand the trinity. Any Christian who isn't a child understands why Jesus died the way he did.
>abraham can kill isaac
Abraham didn't kill Isaac. That story was symbolic of the coming sacrifice Jesus was going to make.

>>719357810
I'm somewhat against you about this abortion topic, but I'm sincerely glad you're willing to care for parent less children

>>719357515
This

>>719357752
at that point you're too late for abortion, im talking about sucking a bunch of cells out of a vag.

>>719358030
fag

>>719356916
This has nothing to do with religion. At all. The heart beats at 5 weeks, there are brain waves by week 8. Most abortions occur during this time. Some occur later. Where's the line?

>>719356546
finite livable space and resources
exponential growth of population

how do you not believe in over population?

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thats weird, me too

>>719354232
Because for every special kid that may be born and 'saved' from abortion, there will be 10M neglected and unwanted children born that will steal my car.

>>719357842
They all look like slimely little mindless tadpoles to me, TBH

>>719357842
This doesn't prove my point wrong. Sperm without egg or egg without sperm don't have all the dna to make a baby but an embryo does

>>719354232

Because the function of feminism is to make women into men. Obstacle #1 men don't get pregnant. Solution? Compartmentalize thinking until a fetus isn't a person (unless you wanted to be pregnant) and waiting nine months to give birth because you chose to have sex is somehow a completely unreasonable burden to place on women.

Brainwash two generations of people and abortion isn't murder.

Proof? Most anon are under 25 and they will all scream at you you're a right wing religious lunatic for ignoring "science" despite the fact there is no medical definition for the moment a fetus becomes a person.

>>719357348
Fetuses can't survive if left alone outside of the womb. A baby can, and can't be legally killed. Just because one sperm makes it into the egg doesn't suddenly mean it has the right to vote.

>>719357515
Realist post ITT.

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>>719354232

No one cares what you think.

>>719357555
Has human dna = human

>>719357241
No its not faggot. Its collection of cells that still has a high chance of spontaneously failing.

There were 3.5 billion humans on this planet when I was born.

There are now nearly 7 billion.

Gee, let's double it again and see where this planet is at.

>>719358276
... Racist

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>>719354232
You are a person that values life, OP. I respect that. God bless.

>>719354232
It's inconvenient.

>>719358030
You have such poor reading comprehension that it partially explains your butthurt

>>719358291
Just because it's gonna be a human someday doesnt mean it is now

>>719358457
I can always count of /b for giving me a good laugh

>>719358479
7.125 billion currently.

We start running out of food/place to grow the food at 10 billion.

>>719358637
The only reaction I got was hunger.

>>719355834
This response perfectly answers the question and has no responses will you all jerk each other off. There's no debate here. It's not murder because that's not what the word means. By claiming that abortion is murder, you're waging a war on words that only exists in your stupid, stupid fucking head because the law is quite explicit on this.

The law might change, but until then? Abortion isn't murder. It's like pointing at a chair and saying that you believe it's a banana. Your precious fucking feelies can be whatever, you have that right, but you're categorically incorrect according to the rule of law.

You're using the exact same bullshit retarded tactics that the libtards and feminists use which so many are complaining about in this very thread, which is attempting to divorce meaning from a word when it has a very well defined meaning in the context of law, which is the only way in which this debate can mean anything beyond (again) your retarded goddamn feelies. I suggest you kill yourself, faggot.

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>>719358375
No one cares about you, neckbeard.

>>719358394
so does your poop retard

>>719358394
So my cum and hair is human?

>>719354232
>I believe that abortion is murder. Why is this so unpopular?

THE Republican plan:
>Make Abortion illegal
>Cut basic education.
>Cut welfare and social services

...so with these three things under control. You are forced to have the baby. But no help in taking care of it.

....The parent will be too busy working 3 jobs to keep their standard of living above the poverty line. Which means parental influence on raising the child will be minimal.

....So it's up to the school system to educate the kid. But the government doesn't care about the quality of education, so they grow up stupid, and having the "streets" to socialize them.

...So when the child becomes an adult, they're limited means and intelligence force them to do menial jobs of servitude. Or imply they should join the military for the next war.


See, the Jews created Christianity as a means to control the lower-caste plebs through spiritual pathos. Making them believe 'abortion' is evil; when in fact it's just nature's many forms of balancing the environment. This age old tactic to turn people into baby-makers to feed into the war machine, and the republicans message to uphold "christian' beliefs (like abortion) is made to make sure the people are kept in line, and not thinking too much.

>>719358099
Thank you for letting me know you've run out of rebuttals.

>>719358120
The line is where the government steps in to make itself the decision maker. That line is not to be crossed.

Sorry everyone. I love babies. I love life. I think its worth noting that I am a female. So many of my friends and relatives have had abortions and regret it, it causes psychological pain that really hurts to see. My aunt saw her fetus, she then felt differently. I lost my baby, and it was inside the legal abortion limit. I hope unborn babies will have human rights someday.

>>719357348
is it the intent that the sperm fertilizes the egg that killing it counts as abortion?

>>719358800
It's known that they don't care about life, they just care about births.. they don't give a fuck about the child between birth and military age.

>>719357156
But even so those women who get abortions for the "eh" reason are obviously unfit at that time to raise a child, they cant even get over their own selfish needs, so in having a child under those circumstances the childs emotional development will suffer

>>719354232

So how many unwanted children have you adopted?

>Though so... NEXT.

>>719358479
You were born in 1968???

>>719358394
I was just gonna say "so does my hair follicle"

But >>719358718 puts it even better

>>719358914
What's the piont to government them?

>>719358120
Most abortions now take place before all that, there's chemical abortion now. All pills..

If you're going to be against something, at least try to understand it.

>>719358030
So just have the abortion but consider it a sacrifice to god. But instead of pussying out like Abraham, go all the way like how god did it to his son. Make sure the fetus die and it'll be fine.

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show me on the pic where personhood begins.

>>719359121
Umm..... no

earlier...

>>719357515
Best response ITT has no responses other than people agreeing with it You win anon.

>>719357515
Why did this post take so long to be made? Everyone saying other irrelevant bullshit

>>719359142
You're asking a guy with a couple degrees in political science and government. Best thing I can tell you is, get an education. I can't fully enlighten you here

>>719359218
Very neat gif

>>719357515
>Sperm cells are living beings right?

They are living cells, not living beings, and are not individuals. They are no more alive than clipped hair, and in fact are less because they only contain fragmented DNA. You can collect as much sperm as you want, but without an egg, it will never develop into anything and will die. A sperm has no thoughts nor feelings, and its entire existence is defined by relatively simple chemical interactions.

A fertilized egg, however, has a unique and complete DNA sequence and that, undisturbed, will develop into a human being. Though it is dependent on the mother, it is a unique individual with the potential to develop into a incredible organism.

That's basically the difference. Sperm is sperm. It's not like if it was left in a barren woman it would develop into a child on its own, and it certainly wouldn't develop into a child after being wiped up with a tissue.

>>719358479
>think about the size of a place like Seattle WA which houses about 600,000 people.

Now think about all the area in the united states that isn't occupied, like forests, plains, etc.

Now think about the largest apartment building ever, the 432 Park Avenue building, which doesn't even occupy that much space. Now imagine your town, but replace all the apartment buildings with towers like these.

Over-population isn't a problem. The carbon foot print we leave as a result of it is the problem.

Imagine all those people driving to work in a Diesel truck, now we have a problem.

I really just wanted to know where everyone stood. I think that worshiping the God of self is inherently evil, but people who have abortions aren't just "evil". I appreciate everyone's input.

>>719354232
because liberals convinced a bunch of ther liberals that abortion si good for womena dn everyone wantsto make women happy.

Women and Children first but WOMEN first. Get it?

>>719359177
>go all the way like how god did it to his son
When did God kill Jesus?

>>719359296
The Earths population was 3.5 billion in 1968. Earlier and it goes down from 3.4 billion.

Anyway, it is my experience that people in their 40s and 50s on /b/ are overwhelmingly pedofiles. I ask you, why are you here instead of 2^3 chan?

>>719359482
I'm just imagining that they all eat.......

>>719354823
This argument doesn't apply if the point of view you're advocating encroaches on the liberties of others. It may seem like a logical argument to you because you don't think that you are encroaching on another persons liberties but the other side views it differently. Because of this difference in opinion on this idea, this argument can't be made unless you can adequately defend it.

>>719354232
>Why is this so unpopular?

It's not.

>>719359608
I just don't understand why it's a feminist issue. Some women act so entitled.

>>719359739
Look at the posts, not one person agrees with me. the only people I know who do are people who have had abortions.

>>719354232
Because human rights are a myth. No one is owed shit, including life.

>>719359643
my experience is that that relates to the majority of the people on /b/, regardless of age

>>719359467
So I need an education because I think the government should set rules and guidelines relating to abortion?

>>719359676
i'm just imagining that there are literally millions of acres of forest that could be put to use as farm land.

>>719358457
slime mold can move too.
but the mold is smarter.

>>719359870
Fair enough

>>719358140
Pretty sure everyone agrees with Malthus but that doesn't mean that the globe is currently overpopulated. While there are certainly areas that are overpopulated across the world, it doesn't mean that the entire globe is overpopulated, much less USA which is where I assume most people on 4chan are from.

>>719359218
probably around the n1 section
anything else?

>>719359482
Simply put, you're wrong. Do even a little bit of research, and you'll find that at 10 billion we start running out of food for everyone, and places to grow that food.

If the rest of the world consumed beef and poultry at the rate that the first world countries consume it would take 3 planets the size of earth only to sustain the livestock.

>>719359879
No, you need an education to understand the proper role and responsibilities of nonrepressive government, and to understand what personal freedom means, in a functional democracy

>>719358394
by this definition my cum tissues are human

>>719360164
Please see here.

>>719359470

>>719359218
BIRTH. That baby ain't a citizen until it gets birthed therefore it doesn't have any rights and can be killed.

>>719359975
See>>719360069

Just because something makes sense in your head, doesn't mean it holds up outside of your head.

>>719355834
The supreme court ruled differently. If you don't like it, move, faggot.

>>719360015
abortions happen before this stage
anything else?

>>719360164
No you cum tissues don't have a complete set of chromosomes

>>719359843
Are we taking the thread you posted on 4chan asking why it's unpopular as the sample size, here?

>>719359482
what you are saying is that the necessary result of overpopulation is a problem. This means that overpopulation is a problem.

Its like saying "me shooting a gun doesn't kill people its the bullets hitting them that is the problem"

>>719360356
We live in a democracy, if you don't like something or if you do like something all you have to do is get people to vote for it or against it.

www youtube com/watch?v=AvF1Q3UidWM

>>719359509
your welcome
thumbsup.jpg

>>719360497
I really just wanted to know where everyone stood. I think that worshiping the God of self is inherently evil, but people who have abortions aren't just "evil". I appreciate everyone's input.

>>719360294
Genetically speaking, you are right

however, a baby cannot live without the help of its mother before later stages. And how can you assume an organism this premature can make its own life decisions.

Youre the kind of guy that would allow his daughter to have a sex change at 13 but wouldnt allow him to drink before 21

>>719360015
personhood requires personal identity which requires sentience which doesnt begin to form until many months after birth.

>>719360295
in the US you're not a citizen until you register to vote (read: for jury duty) at 18

>>719360069
>comparing what we need to eat vs what we actually eat

I'd wager that about 80% of Americans ignore portion size recommendations and eat well above the recommended amount of food intake. There is more than enough space to raise/grow food just in the united states alone.

Not to mention there is plenty of ocean out there and plenty of fish, and plenty of space for off shore agricultural platforms that would grow food.

The primary problem is securing enough fresh water to grow food. You could desalinate sea water, but then there's the issue of increasing the salinity of surrounding water by pumping out excess brine from the desalination process.

Underwater aquifers are also a possibility.

Advances in agricultural science could yield better farming methods as well. Carefully conserving water for crops, only giving each crop just the right amount of water could save thousands if not millions of gallons of wasted water.

Japan managed to support it's population on it's tiny islands by terrace farming and fishing way before they had large contact with mainland nations.

>>719354996
Yeah but did you ask them if they even want to live before making someone pregnant

>>719359745
everything is a feminist issue, it doesn´t even have to do with women and feminist ideologues will dig their claws in it.

Female entitlement deasn´t go much further than this issue in my opinion. Men have no say in it, the future baby has of course no say in it, churches have no say in it, it is a woman ´´choice´´ and only she gets to have a say in it.

I always hated that word Choice, too. She had many other choices before that, she had the choice to use the pill, condoms, IUD or any other birth control that many western countries give women for free; she also had the choice to pick a better partner, not to engage in sexual intercourse without protection or any other way of abstinence; she had so many choices and she made all the worst ones to get in that situation.

Those women are stupid and make stupid life choices so I don´t want them to reproduce anyways, but I sure as hell aint paying for her to get rid of her mistakes.

>>719360735
>however, a baby cannot live without the help of its mother before later stages.

A baby can't survive without help from someone up to several years of age. Some people can't ever survive on their own.
Dependency on a mother does not change that it is a unique and complete set of DNA that has all the components it needs to potentially grow into an independent person.

>And how can you assume an organism this premature can make its own life decisions.

Because the question is "Do you want to live?"
And, we're assuming it has not yet listened to Linking Park because it does not yet have ears.

>>719360613
lolno, you're twisting my words to suit your own purpose.

Our reliance on harmful technology is amplified by overpopulation, but it's a choice we make. Considering the advances being made in electric automobiles, that shouldn't be much of a problem in the future.

>>719360005
The problem with that though is at what point does the world have to be overpopulated enough for people to start doing something. Exponential growth is a bitch and so if you go "okay now lets do something about it" by the time that plan produces results the population has doubled already. In cases like this it cant be the number that you care about, it has to be the fact that it is exponential that we care about.

>>719361228
Thank you for this.

>>719360394
Right. That's what we want to happen.

>>719360791
okay

>>719361027
America is not the only first world country you moron.

The ocean life is dying quicker than we thought it would.

Japan has destroyed sea life to sustain itself. Do you like tuna? Cause if you do, you can thank the Japanese for destroying it in the coming years.

>>719361027
You know the oceans are already on track to be fishless by 2048 right

In order to argue that abortion is murder, you must first decide conclusively that a fetus is a person.

in order to to that you have to

1) Establish whether it is alive (Which is harder than it sounds)

2) Establish whether, if it is alive, it qualifies for its own personhood.

Once you figure out a way to establish that a fetus is an independant person, you then have to decide under what conditions it can be killed legally. A lot of people are quick to say "under no conditions", but those people likely aren't aware of all the worst case scenarios.

And on top of that, you have to do ALL of that without using religion as a source.

>>719360356
"It is illegal or illegal therefore it is okay" is something we've said time and time again and been wrong about. People always need to try to keep their minds open and not just accept shit so easily. Speaking out for what you believe in is always good. If I'm wrong my cause will die out because sunlight I the best disinfectant.

>>719354232
Only abortions of babies that could live outside the womb (late-ish term) are murder.

>>719361684
soo......

That means the carrying capacity of the earth is sufficient for an infinite number of humans?

If you think technology can stretch resources to allow for a doubling of our current 7 billion people, then double that. Then double it again.

You tell ME, what IS the carrying capacity of our globe?

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As opposed to forcing the kid to live a shitty 18+ years just because he was alive for say 3 months? Also
>you would put a dog down if it was suffering
>but would you get the dog in the first place if you knew it was gonna suffer its whole life?

My wife had a miscarriage. Millions of women have miscarriages every year. God is the biggest abortionist.

>>719362168

Plus, the bible doesn't consider children to be alive until they've drawn their first brreath.

>>719361324
that still doesn't account for the problem of finite resources.

No amount of removing harmful technology can create the exponential growth in biomass needed to support the exponential growth in population.

>>719359633
Through his inaction. Unless he's powerless against some skirt-wearing Romans. Then in that case he's a just a faggot with a serious delusion

>>719361824
I don't think it's under no condition. The life of the mother is always more important, and severe depression and sucidal thoughts count. So that excludes rape, ect. My baby had the hiccups by 9 weeks, I know that doesn't equate to life but it still sticks in my head. Here's a question: if a human being was on life support and brain dead and we knew that in a month they would come back we wouldn't even question whether or not that were alive.

>>719362003
You didn't even attempt to make a counter point.

Do you know anything at all about entropy?

>>719362404

Thats not a question, thats a statement. try again.

Also, how do we "know" that person is coming back in a month? Are we omnipotent now?

>>719362404
Babies are the most innocent amoung us. I believe that they are sacred, the over population argument to me isn't true, people are aborting more and more babies every year.

What i dont get is that the pro-life people seem to care about the rights/life/suffering of unborn people more then they care about the rights/life/suffering.

Neglected/poor children die all the time and you should fix this before you try to ban abortion and make the problem worse

>>719361824
It's not really all that difficult.

A baby lacks quite a bit as soon as its born. It's less intelligent than a dog, unable to fend for itself, and not going to make any informed decisions for over a decade. But, it is protected and treated as a human life because it has the full potential of developing further, with absolutely no foreseeable limit.

A sperm can't. An egg, by itself, likewise has no potential to be anything except an egg. That's why the most intelligent place to mark the distinction of when a life begins is when the egg is successfully fertilized and has a unique DNA sequence, since it has the full potential, barring interference, of the same limitless potential extended towards all humans.

Effectively, if you want to say abortion is not murder, you need to someone explain how killing a newborn infant is not murder.

Which, funnily enough, was the common attitude before Christianity. Whatever you want to say about Christianity, great, but before it gained influence, infanticide was a common practice and treated as a reasonable solution to unwanted children.

>>719362654
In this scenario yes, because we know that in 8 months that baby will be crying for warmth. A few months later the baby will smile at you. The heart is already beating by the time most women even find out. That was the case for me.

>>719362735
And yet the population is growing at an exponential rate. Do you know what the infant mortality rate was 200 years ago?

Abortion is, biologically, killing an alive being. But as long as the fetus doesn't have his nervous system developed enough to feel pain during the process of abortion, it is not cruelty and is needed when:
>Risks mother
>Risks baby's healthy life
>Can't afford a minimal amount of money for 18 or more years of raising
>Overpopulation and/or family overcrowding

>>719362455
A counter point to what? Did I miss something?

My readings told me, in short "Entropy is the Devil."

The Longer story is in general systems theory, of which entropy is the key consideration. Entropy: the longer a system exists, the more complex it becomes, and the more complex a system is, the more fragile it is; the more unbalance and unsustainable it becomes. Then it all collapses and equilibrium is reestablished in a system operating at a lower level, which then becomes to grow to be more complex..... ad infinitum

Yeah, entropy. I think I got it. Now, what was your point?

>>719362820
Funny, because the biggest charity in the world is the Catholic church, and it runs the most orphanages and provides for more children than any other charity.

So, yes, they're working to help neglected and poor children.

>>719362735

>People are aborting more, therefore overpopulation doesn't exist

You're retarted. Unless people are aborting more babies than they are giving birth to (which will never happen) the population is still going to rise.

>TFW this is the average intelligence of an Anti-Abortion fucktard.

>>719362820
I also believe in the importance of the secular family, I have a huge problem with the 72% of black babies born without dads. That doesn't mean you get to kill them. There are 2 million Americans on the list, newborn babies have no trouble being adopted.

>>719362956


>It will be alive in 8 months

therefore

>It is alive now

Not feeling your logic there.

>>719363008
It's not really okay to kill a living being because the parent made poor decisions.

>Can't afford a minimal amount of money for 18 or more years of raising
>Overpopulation and/or family overcrowding

These need to be answered with "If you plan on having sex, you're getting your tubes tied until you can afford to get them untied."

>>719354232
Because you are provably wrong.

Definition of Murder: When one human being kills another.

Definition of Human: Modern humans (Homo sapiens, primarily ssp. Homo sapiens sapiens) are the only extant members of Hominina tribe (or human tribe), a branch of the tribe Hominini belonging to the family of great apes. They are characterized by erect posture and bipedal locomotion; manual dexterity and increased tool use, compared to other animals; and a general trend toward larger, more complex brains and societies.

When abortions are done, the """"baby""" is nothing more than a few dozen cells, lacking definition in any method.

A fetus is not a human being.

>>719362372
You don't understand the difference between God's permissive will and God's perfect will. Also you don't understand why Jesus had to die the way he did and I assume you don't really care.

>>719363380
It's not that it's alive then and now, it's that it will develop into a child.

Don't act stupid and then try to pretend it's someone else with faulty logic.

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lol...Jesus can't control abortion machines

>>719363072

They're doing less good than harm. None of those kids would NEED orphanages if the pope would let his followers wear a fucking rubber or take birth control.

>>719363502

>These need to be answered with "If you plan on having sex, you're getting your tubes tied until you can afford to get them untied."

Good point there. It's just some people are really stupid (my neighbours for example) can't afford for raising but they are still having kids, like if a condom was 20 dollars expensive

>>719363072
but not making laws about it. They dont try and make laws about being a good parent. if just giving money was enough then instead of banning abortion you should be at the clinics offering to help pay for the child to be raised.

Also I think the bible says that its not the person who gives the most who is the most righteous so dont pull that shit buddy.

>>719362288
See>>719355783

>>719363502
I'm not that anon, but this argument is bullshit. Sex is sex, and it's not for procreation alone.

If you're arguing that the woman should have her tubes tied, I'd argue that the men should have a vasectomy. Cause it takes two to tango.

>vasectomies are safer
>can be more easily reversed

>>719363640
I really dislike the Christian argument that God isn't accountable for anything bad.

>>719363713
>None of those kids would NEED orphanages if the pope would let his followers wear a fucking rubber or take birth control.

Or if their parents waited until marriage before having sex.

If you're taking the risk and having sex while pretending you don't realize that sex can result in babies, you can't really blame the guy saying "yo, maybe don't have sex if you don't want babies."

>>719363644

Its not my fault if you failed to fully explain your point. I assume your unwarranted hostility means you haven't got a real argument, and you're now going to resort to petty name-calling, like Anti-Choice advocates always do when cornered?


GG, Thanks for the win.

>>719363640
Well, considering the Bible was written by people who weren't even alive when Jesus was alive, and that santa Jesus god is just another name given to an object of our misguided praise id say none of your arguments are valid.

It's okay to believe, but don't push religion as fact.

>>719363904
Sure, if that's how you want it.

In fact, BOTH should get the operations done.

There. Problem solved. If you want to have sex but can't afford a kid, you need to rendered incapable of having a kid, regardless of gender.

Don't like the risk of operation? Don't have sex.

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>>719359045
But it is free to give your child to adoption agency's where a caring family will adopt them, not only a caring family but usually a wealthy family since buying a kid isn't cheap

>>719364170
Depends on what you consider bad. The agreement is humans have free will so while God would rather we do something his way he allows us to do it our way.

>>719364229
I'm a different anon, and I saw that person's point because it was pretty obvious.

I'm sorry, but the hostility is warranted, because you seem to be genuinely stupid.
As for the real argument, there's still the whole business about the it developing into a child that you failed to address, and instead hoped to divert the discussion in the direction of showing how upset you are that someone called you out on acting stupid.

>>719364216

Ah, an abstinance fag. Let me know how that abstinance is working out for you.

OH WAIT, IT ISN'T WORKING.

I wonder fucking why.

Meanwhile, in parts of the country where Sex education is required, there are less teen/ extramarital births than areas that rely on "abstinance only"

I wonder why

and I wonder why everyone else keeps sticking to their guns, even though its ABUNDANTLY clear that

IT

DOESNT

WORK

>>719354232
my problem is pro-abortion sides claims it isn't alive and that it's not a person, but if you kill a pregnant woman you get charged with 2 counts of murder, 1 for the woman, 1 for the unborn baby. you can't have it both ways.

>>719364554
If people are so ready to adopt children all the time and solve all the problems why are there still orphanages filled with kids. You imply that there is an endless list of happy parents to be ready to give any and all children a full and happy life but this is not the case.

>>719364478
I agree then, I've said for years that we should be made infertile as soon as possible, and only be given fertility back once we've proven our capability to care for a child. Cause there is way to many children having children.

>>719364554
Have you been to a foster home? It's rare as fucj to find a caring and loving foster parents that aren't total dick wads yo their kids

>>719364229
OP here. My point is I'm determining life by it's ability to grow, adapt, and reproduce.
https://youtu.be/RDmwPGrZkYs

>>719364372
>Bible was written by people who weren't even alive when Jesus was alive
False
>It's okay to believe, but don't push religion as fact.
It's okay to believe your own misunderstanding of religion just don't use it as an argument against religion.

>>719364554
>being this naive

That's not the way it works in real life anon.

>>719364720

>"I don't see your point"

>LOL THATS CUZ UR RETARTED

And you anti-choice fags wonder why nobody takes you seriously. You don't actually try to get your point across, you just call people stupid and refuse to explain how you arrived at your conclusion.

I haven't addressed the part about it developing into a child because that anon did not give me enough context to understand his point, and neither have you.

>>719364640
1. So if God thinks the best thing to do is let us have the choice to abort why do you think your opinion is better than His?

2. Do you think people (who are and can only be the way god makes them) making the wrong choices (choices that they would think are for the best at the time given their limited ability to understand the consequences of their actions) should be blamed for horrible and malicious diseases that exist in the world?

>>719365224
No man, that's an absolute fact. Even Saint Paul was born 5 years after Jesus had died. If you're going to defend something at least understand the goddamn thing.

>>719364764
It doesn't work?
That's funny, because statistics show that people who abstain from sex don't get pregnant.

It's a "You can't blame the advice if people don't follow it" sort of thing. If your advice for the obesity epidemic is "Stop telling kids to eat healthy and exercise, they're not going to do it," then what do you suggest we do?

Your solution would apparently be "Tell them getting fat is normal and shouldn't be discouraged, and help them afford rascals to haul their fat asses around."

Sure, "Abstinence-ONLY" is not the best form of sex education, but no one here is advocating that.
Only that abstinence really is the only 100% surefire way of avoiding having a child.

>>719364771
Not all of us do though.
Some of us think that its a complicated situations and that overall in some situations abortion is the best choice.

So do you think its okay for me to choose abortion then?

>>719365220

Ah, I see. That gives me something to work with.

In this case, the fetus is not alive. It grows, but it does not adapt or reproduce. It is incapable of sustaining its own existance. the fact that it could "eventually" fit that criteria doesnt satisfy that definition.

in fact, by that definition, Cancer is more "alive" than a fetus, as it both

•Grows

•Adapts

and

•Reproduces.

Also, being alive is much different from being Sapient. Our only moral grey areas come from killing sapient life. Trees and insects are alive, but not sapient. A fetus may be "sort-of-alive", but it isn't yet sapient.

>>719365609
it depends on your definition. If it's because it's inconvenient to you, then I disagree.

>>719365245
>it develops into a child

What more context do you need? Do you just want that repeated a few times until you realize what we're talking about?

When I call you stupid, I do so with a warm heart, because I'm trying to help you stop thinking you're too smart to have to actually listen to when people say really, really simple things.

Like the fact that a zygote develops into a child.
Do you really want more context?

>>719365580
Not everyone is as strong willed and perfect as you are. For some people making the right choice is hard. Obviously if people were to maintain abstinence then we wouldn't need abortion.
The argument is that simply giving the advice is not enough and more needs to be done.

>>719365776
A newborn baby isn't sapient by your definitions.
Shall we return to the time when infanticide was permissible?

>>719365580

Abstinance IS the best way of avoiding a child, just like not eating is the best way to avoid getting fat. But Abstinance education is pointless because

•people are gonna eat when they get hungry

•People are gonna fuck when they get horny

The catholic church, by ignoring human nature, and by convincing its followers that they'll burn in hell if they use a condom, is responsible for the gigantic number of poor children that would have been avoided if they would just come out and say

"Use a rubber, folks."

its not that they're giving out advice that people arent following, its that they're giving out BAD advice that people ARE following.

>>719365352
>So if God thinks the best thing to do is let us have the choice to abort why do you think your opinion is better than His?
My opinion isn't better than his it is his. Just because God gave us free will doesn't mean he wants use to do whatever we want.
>Do you think people (who are and can only be the way god makes them) making the wrong choices (choices that they would think are for the best at the time given their limited ability to understand the consequences of their actions) should be blamed for horrible and malicious diseases that exist in the world?
God has told us what to do in the bible. If we do something he doesn't want us to do it's either out of ignorance or we just don't care so it's our fault.

>>719358140
The only places where populations are spiking at exponential rates are 3rd world contries currently going through industrialization. Medicine is improving reducing the infant death rate. Eventually the culture shifts from spamming babies to the 2.2 kids level that the industrialized world operates on.

At the rate we're going, we're probably gonna plateau around the 10 to 11 billion global mark.

>>719356458
>no lives matter

'All lives are worthless' ftfy

Also doesn't matter they arent "babies" they are alive and forming naturally. this is still murder, not it matter since not even the parents care. also theres no reason to brought up the fetus argument to velid your selfish actions.

>>719365842
That's not what you said your problem was though

>>719355369
and your opinion doesn't trump the rights of a female and wether or not she chooses to give birth.

>>719365852

I didn't have a hard time grasping the statement. what I was getting at was "What point are you trying to make by saying that."

Are you austisic? can you REALLY not understand how a lack of context prevents understanding?

Maybe your mom should have aborted you instead of raising up a potato.

>>719365776
If you want to go in that direction I believe theidea of “potential life” presumes that something has the ability to, at some point in the future, become alive. But as our brief look at the zygote confirms, he or she is alive at the point of conception. Through internal self-direction, he or she is growing, metabolizing, responding to various stimuli, crying in the womb, dreaming, adapting to the environment, and already has the necessary genetic material in place for reproduction. By week 16 baby girls have eggs in place. Life does not begin at birth.

>>719366128
The failures of a parent shouldn't mean the death of a child.
If for some people making the right choice is hard, the hard solution is to take away that choice.


Yes, people are not strong, and there's no way to stop people who are not ready to have a baby from potentially having one without mandatory vasectomy/tube-tying, but if that's what you're suggesting needs to be done in order to prevent innocent lives from ending, I'm kind of on the side of "Let's stop vilifying abstinence already, holy shit."

It's a lot better than just pretending abortion isn't one hell of a fucked up method of birth control.

>>719366200

stop misconstruing my arguments, I'm genuinely trying to have a frank discussion here.

Newborns ARE Sapient. They have brain activity and they have thoughts.

A fetus has no brain activity, and no thoughts. Its the empty vessel into which a person WILL grow. But it isn't a person YET, its just a vegetable with a heartbeat


thats the point I'm trying to make.

It WOULD become a person, but it isn't there yet.

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>>719354232
You're right it is murder... one is killing a small multi cellular organism. So then is walking to your car bad because you may crush small indistinguishable creatures (ants, insects, plants, etc)?

>>719366286
Human nature isn't to be a slave to desires.
If that's what you believe, that's your personal failing, and not the Church's for believing that you're somehow not a lowly animal that can't resist temptation.

If you can't stop getting fat, how is anyone supposed to expect you to make any important decision?

>>719366925

We aren't villifying abstinance. we're vilifying "Abstinance-Only."

Abstinance is great, but when it's your *only* option, you might end up fucked, pun intended.

>>719366521
Scott Klusendorf calls this “degree of dependency.” Since when do we have the moral right to kill someone based on his or her degree of dependency on another person? A toddler is more dependent than a teenager so do we have the right to kill the toddler but not the teenager? This argument acts as though the baby is somehow intentionally enslaving the mother for his or her own selfish purposes. In the majority of abortion cases, I'm not talking about the small amount of rape cases that warrant abortion over th well-being of the mother, the abortion is a procedure of convenience after unprotected sex. Should we now kill the unborn baby because he or she was conceived and may potentially inconvenience someone due to the mother’s choice to have sex?

>>719366959
>Newborns ARE Sapient. They have brain activity and they have thoughts

So do insects.

>>719366322
Does the bible say that abortion is wrong though?

But God made me of critical mind. God made me not believe things that are inconsistent. God made me not believe in the bible. So when I make choices that are against the bible because I believe that my rational thinking is better I am doing what God has always wanted me to do. Also are you saying that children that die because of child-specific diseases deserve it for not being Christian enough?

>>719367238

>Human nature isn't to be a slave to desires

go ahead and quote the bible here, because literally EVERYTHING humans do is done with the (subconscious) goal of BREEDING.

So yes, humans ARE slaves to desire, and the church wants them to curb their desires so they can collect more tithes.

>>719366358
2.2 kids from each family is still exponential

>>719366925
You are so right

>>719367381

Insects have instinct and hormonal reactions, not thoughts. If humans were true artificial intelligence, insects would be individual lines of code designed to fulfill one purpose. they don't contemplate their own existance, they don't question their world or experiment. babies can and do.

>>719354232

I think so too.

But most abortions are niggers killing niglets so meh. its all good.

>>719354232
because as unsavory as it is, it is mostly poor niggers and spics destroying future criminals before they cause any headaches.

>>719367381
From zygote to delivered baby, he or she is a human being. Not a bug. There is no point during development when he or she matures into a human or somehow “turns human.” He or she is a unique human being from the point of fertilization. Comparing the two are intellectually dishonest, bugs don't turn into walking talking beings. If they did I would feel different.

>>719367245
Abstinence really is the only practical solution, because everything else on the market has a risk of failure. Even vasectomies and tube tying, anything short of permanent sterilization, have been proven to not be completely, 100% effective in preventing pregnancies.

Educating people on the risks and the other options available is great, but advocating Abstinence as the best form of birth control should hardly be so vehemently opposed as it is. It genuinely sounds like there are people who genuinely believe that humans have absolutely no control over themselves.

If that is really the case, the argument ends up "If people can't make the right decisions, the right decisions must be made for them." Let's not make it so, and act like humans have the capacity to not only make decisions, but be held responsible for them.

>>719367963

The point I'm getting at (Not the person you replied to) is that just because it "could" turn into a person doesn't mean it is one now. I believe that there IS a point when the fetus becomes human. I believe that point is when it starts thinking. prior to that, its just a clump of cells with a potential.

Obviously I would prefer a lack of conception too abortion. That's not the point though. Its about whether or not people who already have conceived should have the legal choice to abort or not.
I'm sure a lot of us pro-abortionists think it is an unfortunate situation to be in. We just think there are cases where abortion might be a better option and so people should have the choice.

>>719354232
it is better to murder the unborn child than to raise it in the current foster care system

why condemn that child to a lifetime of abuse, poverty and something like 70% chance of ending up in jail?

just abort it. i get how it's 'immoral', but i feel its way more immoral to bring a human onto this earth just so that it can suffer for a lifetime, just to appease YOUR consciousness

>>719368223
So specifically tell me when is that.

>>719367410
There's actually the process of a primitive kind of abortion described and condoned in Leviticus..

>>719368043


Again, nobody is saying that.

At least, I'm not. what I'm saying is, while abstinance is the most responsible choice, people aren't going to do it. sometimes because they don't want to, sometimes because they lose control of theirselves.

Abstinance should ABSOLUTELY be taught as the best method of birth control, but people NEED to know about the other options. Otherwise we get conditions lile Mexico where they're breeding more than they can support.

>>719368472
I did not know this, can post/ link verse?

>>719367736
Babies don't. A newborn baby is less intelligent than a honey bee.

And, don't underestimate insect intelligence. They communicate, solve problems, have memories, can be trained, and so on and so forth. The line of where you draw instinct and what you call intelligence isn't so clean and clear.

So, we're back to the point where you need to defend me from killing a newborn infant, which for all practical purposes is mentally less human than a chicken, cow, or pig you may have recently eaten.

And, your argument has to somehow exclude making it impermissible to kill a zygote.

>>719368585
>abstinance is the most responsible choice

fuck that. i'd rather get a vasectomy.

>>719368433
Although I disagree this is an understandable argument. My problem is that I think we really need to put responsibility on ourselves, people are being coddled into thinking they aren't accountable because for every problem we have a quick fix. It's a selfish world.

>>719368453


I just did. Did you want me to tell you what stage of pregnancy it is? I'm not a doctor. But I do know that the law shares my opinion. Abortion is illegal after that level of cranial development has occured.

>>719368043
You Abstinecers say that it is the only 100% guarantee to not having children. I think you are forgetting about a certain someone who had their birthday last month.

I'll take King of rhetoric crown whenever you are ready.

>>719368653

>Newborn baby has less mental capacity than a honey bee

Okay, I van see this argument is going nowhere. I can't argue rationally if you're just going to make shit up.

Good job conforming to the stereotype of Anti-Choice fags being ignorant and uneducated.

>>719368318
was meant to reply to >>719366925

>>719368686

Good for you, by all means, do it. But it isn't 100% effective. tread carefully, anon.

>>719354232
because no body cares aboute life anymore, just kill the babies and all we'll be happy

>>719368723
personl responsibility SHOULD be the first line, but since we have a society of instant gratification, we cannot count on that, since it would never work. abortions are the only humane option since even foster homes have high rates of abuse, and raise children with much higher rates of social/mood problems

>>719369091
well, i'm 35. probably close to shooting blanks by now anyway

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>>719368653
>mentally less human than a chicken, cow, or pig

So it would be OK to kill your retarded ass?

>>719369011
not who you are replying to but hasn't God made an interesting and wonderful world for us to live in?

Why are you so sure that honeybees are not smarter then newborns.

>>719368608
Sorry it was numbers..

Numbers 5:11-31

>>719368759
The law allows abortions sickeningly late term.

>>719354232
>266 replies
Yep I'm not opening this thread

>>719368953
100% guaranteed for ordinary humans.
Mary was born without original sin, effectively a divine being closer to God and not to be treated as really in the same category (though she was still "technically human" just like Jesus was).

So, unless you yourself also happened to be immaculately conceived, Abstinence is still 100% guaranteed.

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>>719354232

>>719354232
You can't murder something that isn't alive.

>>719368723
>>719369244

keep in mind the person that pays for the selfishness and instant gratification are never the parents, but the children.

there needs to be incentives or punishments for people that keep having kids, but do not raise them or cannot raise them. say they have two kids on welfare. if they have a 3rd, they must pay the govt back for all benefits received for the 3rd child. something that removes the incentive for being a baby factory

>>719369476
This. Abortion was practiced even in the Bible.

>>719354232
Children are an affront to the male sexdrive
>rawdogging is so much better why do i have to pay for 18 years for the privlege

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>>719369574
What the fuck, Anon?!

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>>719369397
This little girl is likely still smarter than you.

>>719369788
how dare you assume the gender that lump of tissue

>>719369574
Very very sad.

>>719361824
>Establish whether it is alive (Which is harder than it sounds)
If you can kill it, it was alive. Anything that grows, consumes, reproduces, dies and rots is a life form. Not hard at all.

>>719369476
Damn...........

Damn

>>719369011
Not making anything up here. Newborn Infants are incredibly stupid. Depending on what intelligence test you propose, a honey bee will likely perform better.

They can learn and remember complex directions, communicate them through dance and pheromones, construct elaborate structures while problem solving to adapt to irregularities, and exhibit independence.

A newborn child, while adorable, is barely able to suck on a nipple.

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>>719370192
They sure are cute

>>719370795
until you have to take care of them

>>719371090
It's the greatest joy I have ever known

>>719371303
i prefer when theyre 5+ when you can actually play and teach them things

the 4 years of hell is worth it though

>>719354232
Seems pretty popular to me. All I ever see or hear about abortion is that it's pure evil and anyone who is pro choice is a monster and should be killed.