Hey /b/ let's discuss communism What are your thoughts?

>>719043747
>great in theory
>doesn't work so well in practice

A guy im seeing is a communist, i dont know much about it. should I be worried?

>>719043747
>terrible in theory
>somehow doesn't work out in practice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdXIF42UC7A

>>719044297
Also I fucked up. Wrong link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZou8mgDSs8

Capitalism will end by himself anyway so communism is just the following

bad at nuclear energy

communism = potheads

>>719043747
Based as fuck.

>>719043747

100 years ago it was new and exciting

At this point anyone who thinks any catagorical sysyem is The Solution is ignorant of philosophy, history and ethics.

>>719046121
Well said annon.

>>719043747
Disgusting cancer , fascism will win you disgusting bolshevik jew

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>>719043747
aside from being illiberal, its kind of a fucking joke

>>719044519
Nice propaganda vid m8

>>719043747
It completely ignores human greed and hopes everybody will play along, and hopes that the government will dissolve and give equal control of the means of production to the people once it has seized complete control of the economy and the autonomy of the citizens as the means of creating the communistic utopia. I thought this kind of optimism died at the age of four

>>719046682
Thanks m8.

>>719044519

Almost all the freedoms in this film don't apply in modern america. Warrent? tell that to the swat team. Freedom of speech? not on college campuses or in the media. Capitalism as a system doesn't automatically give you freedom. Capitalism leads to monopolies, which are the same as socialism except now it's owned by the 1% instead of the state,

Socialism doesn't automatically take away your freedoms either, in fact the USSR was more equal opportunity than america ever was during the Brezhnev period. Ask anyone who lived through it.

>>719046856
>in fact the USSR was more equal opportunity than america ever was during the Brezhnev period
i think fucking not m8, not from what ive heard from multiple people who lived through communist states.

>>719046856
>he thinks he lives in capitalism
America has STATE capitalism.

>>719046260
Go away, edgelord.

>>719046998
I know several people who lived in varying places, some in Ukraine, one in Talinn in Estonia and one in Saint Petersburg - they all said that the education was the best in the world. Teachers encouraged the smartest instead of holding up the tards like here.

the Saint Petersburg guy went to a school with an olympic sized swimming pool, 3 gyms and hundreds of after school programs like archery, baseball, etc. He laughed at our school system when he visited the UK, and that's a point of pride in this country - that really tells you something.

Qualifications would give you a better house, a car and a good position - your living standard and job was based on what you studied and how good you were; like capitalism claims to do, but doesn't. Everyone got a good education, and the opportunity to succeed - if you didn't, it was on you. All the time people who were poorer got respected positions because they were smart. That's true equal oppertunity, not this classist capitalist bullshit.

>>719047137
Barely, with the establishment of the feds, social security, medicaire, and the government subsidies of student loans and healthcare, I consider it to be too interventionalist. Also with the 08 crashes, the federal bailouts seizing ownership of major companies and the backdoor deals made by the feds its barely recognizable as capitalism

>>719043747
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TgdLkGwbTw

>>719047137
This capitalism is probably freer than any "true" libertarian capitalist society. Without the state, who would stop all the corportations from merging into an oligarchy? I mean, we already basically have one now, and that's WITH regulations.

>>719047781
I'm not arguing for absence of state.

Better dead than red

>>719047507
sorry m8, but this runs contrary to absolutely everything ive ever heard from those living under any kind of communist rule ever. unless your friends were of very high status within the USSR, i seriously fucking doubt any of that shit is legit.

>>719047942
What are you arguing for then? is state capitalism not the freest possible form of capitalism? before the consolidation got this bad, things were working well with this system.

>>719048078
Then you haven't asked a lot of people, or you asked people who were around only in the 80s when the economy crashed. Before then, they were very prosperous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=munr3OhtrDI


It's a shame we have so much pro-capitalist propaganda. Truly, if you want to hear good things about capitalism you need to ask high status people also - only difference is high status in the USSR was a right you earned, not one you were born into.

>>719048102
Free market capitalism.

>>719048791
so, care to explain to me why every economist ive ever read works by or listened to, even socialist leaning ones, are wholehartedly against state planning?

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>>719043747

>>719048035
Then by all means kill yourself.

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It's impossible to implement because one of its foundational ideas is factually incorrect. You either end up collapsing or implementing some other system cloaked in Communist terminology. For the same reason, it's extremely difficult to sell to the masses, and most of the people who come to it on their own are alienated losers and unproductive eaters.

>>719046682
>All communism has to offer is propaganda
>Don't dare present any propaganda against it, though!

>>719049054
Because it was inneficient back then, and I agree - it took six months for data to reach the central planners (Gosplan) and nothing ever got where it needed to exactly. Nowadays it would probably work better since information can travel millions of times faster; Chile experimented with that concept (computerised central planning) during the 70s but there was a fascist coup before it really got off the ground.

I would personally prefer more local councils to manage planning, since centralised power always seems to corrupt, be it multinationals or politicians. This is actually what communism aims to achieve.

>>719048928
So how would a free market system, with little to no regulation prevent the largest and most successful companies form absorbing into a monopoly?

>>719049669
so, whats your major objections to liberal capitalism? seems to me that all the individually directed efforts in the world will never hope to equal the results of every man planning for himself according to his needs and desires within a competetive system.

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>>719049941
Because "muh NAP". Ancaps are truly just as retarded as communists.

>>719049663
No

>>719043747
communism is for the birds

>>719050062
I don't have any problems with liberalism - I'm not a collectivist, I just think the rights and needs of the individual would be better seen to by an accountable and democratic economy. And this is not what the free market gives us.

Eventually, the competition ends with one or two winners, a conglomorate that's essentially the same thing as a centrally planned economy but without any of the accountability of the state. It would be better to democratically handle it under socialism, with the planning done either with computers or local councils than entrust things to a "free market" that's owned privately by a handful of people. I know that's not what happened in the USSR, but this system seems just as flawed, if not moreso.

>>719049941
It doesn't have to.

>>719050163
I will wait for non-propaganda argument for communism.

>>719050917
Well a monopoly defeats the purpose of the market being "free" because they prevent competition by either killing them off or taking them over. They're so large no one can truly boycott them unless you go live in the forest and hunt for your goods.

I fuckin love it

>>719043824
this
although we have to admit that elitism had a lot to do with it's failure.
elitist ideals will always ruin a good thing.
russia, china and napoleon's republic all had the same problem:
they replaced the ruling elitists with the common elitists, and ended up in the same fucked up mess.

until the elitists are wiped out, neither communism nor democracy will work they way they were envisioned.

>>719051234
>by either killing them off
If they provide inferior product/service for same price, sure.

>or taking them over.
Can't buy what's not for sale.

Communism is a matter of willingness. Willingness to resist one's own temptations and work for the good of everyone. Now in a country where about half of the population is a Republican, there is no way everyone would be willing to pursue such an ideal.

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oh god ..dont get me started..i voted for a left wing goverment.as so many others here did..aaaand so far weve got nothing but a sore ass from all the fucking over that theyve done..never again,,,never ever ever
i gues everything sounds good theoreticaly but daaaaamn......

>>719051761
PAY DENTBS

>>719051500
>By killing them off
Problem is, when they're dead and there's no competition left, their products can be as shitty as they want. That's why everything breaks now compared to back 50 years ago and there's no magical "competition" thats better for the "free" market to enjoy.


>Or taking them over
Tell that to local businesses the world over; they force a sale eventually, either because it's one they can't refuse or starve them of business until it is.

>>719051234
>no one can truly boycott them unless you go live in the forest and hunt for your goods.

or you just don't buy into the hype that you "need" the shitty crap they're selling. mind that the sheep out there have been well trained to distinguish what they need from what they want. consumerism is all about want. corporatism is all about convincing the sheep that they need.

learn to distinguish between the two and you can start to undermine the corporate system.

>>719043747
Like all political ideologies it is best taken in small doses and paired with others. Extremism of any doctrine is the root of its failure as well as the denial of its people's freedom of expression.

>>719045521
>Venezuela
>Communism
Pick one

>>719051833
with what money you granf faggot of all that is pink and fluffy

>>719050782
>I just think the rights and needs of the individual would be better seen to by an accountable and democratic economy.
explain this to me. what is a democratic and accountable economy exactly?

>Eventually, the competition ends with one or two winners
even if this holds true (which im inclined to believe isnt the case without the state crippling competition in some manner, such as with patents), why not simply have a free market with anti-monopoly laws?

>with the planning done either with computers
do you have any knowledge of computer systems? the best computer systems we have are all either inferior to the capabilities of the human brain, or used merely to assist a human brain by providing it with a means of accessing and quickly processing vast amounts of data.

>I know that's not what happened in the USSR, but this system seems just as flawed, if not moreso.
so youre no collectivist, but youre fine with an inherantly collectivist system?

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>>719051918
That works for non essentials, but look at these. You can't buy half your food without giving one of these monsters money, and within their niche - most of their competition is themselves.

All the start up business become absorbed into one of these as well - like Innocent drinks for example got bought out by coca cola. They will end up owning everything eventually.

>>719047507
Only the thugs, resentful, malicious and incompetent people rise to the highest positions in ussr. If by smart you mean ''I will denounce my neighbor as an enemy of the working people, because I know he has a family member in Europe, that will pass under Article 58-3 'contact with foreigner with counter-revolutionary purposes'. He will be sent to gulag, and I will take his nice apartment''. yeah that's very smart

>>719052079
>Lets be liberal and all encompassing

fucking niggerlover new-ager individualist pos

>>719051874
What are you talking about? There IS competition.
And yes everything breaks now because if you want to stay competitive you have to make devices with same specs that will, as a consequence, be just as fragile at the same price.

Everything breaks now because people don't care about robustness. Excess of wealth breeds carelessness.

>Tell that to local businesses the world over; they force a sale eventually, either because it's one they can't refuse or starve them of business until it is.

How is that a bad thing? If consumers don't support local business that means they don't want them.
>>719052209
Sell your islands or something to China. I dunno. Make it happen.

>>719052330
Nice spooky story got you there kiddo

>>719043747
I dont have any thoughts on communism, other that it doesnt work in todays society, and then theres this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aekiMlGQDLY

>>719052330
Getting to the top of your class in physics, going to university and thus being qualified to work for the space program or whatever doesn't make you a thug. None of what you just described even applies to the way their system worked. If you want to see a system where being a vicious sociopath makes you a success, take a stroll down wall street.

>>719043747
>communism
its ded jim

>>719052509
It's a bad thing because when ALL the competition is gone, they can do whatever they want, and no one can stop them. It's all privately run by a handful of people - is this not the same as socialism? except instead of a democracy in charge, it's the shareholders. They aren't accountable, why cant you see this is a problem?

>>719051446
You can't get rid of the elitists...
When ever you consolidate power, whoever holds that power becomes the new elitist.

The more power you give the state the worse off the citizens have it.

>>719052509
Also, shoddy goods don't account for why this is acceptable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlaW_xh0nP0

>>719049941
Monopolies are hardly ever the result of a highly superior product/service, and the exceptions rarely last more than a decade. Government intervention is, in most cases, the catalyst to monopolization.

Commies, fuck commies!!!

>>719052952
>ALL the competition is gone
Here we go again. They can only get rid of competition if competition is worse than they are and has no local support.

>>719053097
What was the price? What's it's power requirement?

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>>719045178
Sound logic.

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>>719043747
It's the only hope for our civilization. It's the next stage in the development of our society. Remaining capitalist means stagnation and death.

>>719052241
One in which those managing it are elected and can be impeached by the public, and have to be transparent about their policies and decisions - just like shareholders can hold their CEOs to account for their descisions and "force retirement" if they don't like the direction a company is taking.

Because the state relies on the economy, and so they often make decisions in favour of business to appease them. So just as we're seeing here, the interest of the state is the interest of businesses, because politicians need them more.

The stock market is just as complex and handled by AI as a central planning system would need to be - if you can make multi-million dollar business deals through computerised predictions, you could handle shipments and trade routes and factory production and so on.

Socialism is not inherently collectivist - As I said earlier in the USSR their education favoured individuals who were particularly skilled. We don't believe democracy is collectivist, because it values the rights of the individual - a socialised economy won't change that if it's prioritised in the same way.

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>>719051446
>until the elitists are wiped out, neither communism nor democracy will work they way they were envisioned.

Which is literally what the communists say, dummy. Americans really need to learn about socialism before parroting what the ruling class tells them to say about it.

>>719044263
1) Yes.
2) You should really read into this subject more. Not communism specifically, just politics in general. I feel our representative democracy would be much healthier if its foundation of voters were more informed.

>>719053931
Based on what, exactly?

>>719054274
Fiction.

>>719053695
Wal Mart sells products cheaply right now, so everyone shops at wal mart - the local businesses can't compete and close. When they're all gone, why does Wal Mart need to sell its products at a higher quality or cheaper price?

So it makes shitty goods, or sells them at a premium, and then a competitor opens and they're in some way superior, but because Wal Mart is making a profit equivilent to it's own small nation they offer them X amount of money, buy out the store and carry on. This is the problem.

>>719053931
Yes, it's worked swimmingly for all other States looking to take that next step.

>>719052309
Buy fucking real food then...
Stop buying packaged food.
Get fresh produce and meat thats local.

>>719043747
I have no thoughts, the party decides.

>>719054472
Why is it a problem?

>>719053675
This

Most regulations are typically to server the interest of the large corporations and help keep the small, local ones from being able to compete or even being able to start up.

>>719054654
He just stated the problem.

>When they're all gone, why does Wal Mart need to sell its products at a higher quality or cheaper price?

>>719051833
I paid my debt to your mother. I was raping her until she got pregnant to you.

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>>719054274
Capitalism has served its purpose of creating an industrial society capable of automating labor and using information technology to control distribution networks. And it has shown that we cannot trust a small group of people to control society as a ruling class through the over-concentration of economic power that capitalism inevitably produces. Our current capitalism-driven and capitalist-controlled policies are leading us directly towards ecological and social collapse, and the ruling class is not willing to do anything about it because - as always - they care only about maintaining their power and nothing about what is good for humanity and our future.

Socialism is economic democracy. It is about emancipating the people from the economic ruling class by taking away the base of their power - their ownership of the means of production. Only then can we start to organize our society in a sane manner and plan for the future instead of wallowing in an orgy of exploitative overconsumption presided over by sociopaths until all the resources of this planet are gone.

Capitalism is a death sentence for our civilization. Socialism is the only way forward.

>>719054729
>>719054472
>When they're all gone, why does Wal Mart need to sell its products at a higher quality or cheaper price?
It doesn't need to. If you don't like the price or quality, don't buy it.

>>719054777
Are you really this terrible at English or merely pretending?

>>719054729
This - without competition, you're left with one massive place to buy goods, all owned by the same people, and you don't have a say in any of it. The free market loses it's freedom. Though that's fine right? freedom is slavery. Wal-Soc.

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Fascism gets the results that communism wishes it could.

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>>719055003
>Socialism is economic democracy.
This could also accurately be said about the unrestricted free market. Maybe part of the reason both systems are so retarded is that the demos is retarded.

>>719055231
But it's food, you have to buy food, and there's only one place to buy food at that point. And as well as food, all the other essentials too.

>>719054497
What's going to stop fresh produce and meat from being monopolised as well? where I live, farmers markets are slowly dying out because they can't compete with these superstores.

>>719055254
>and you don't have a say in any of it.
Yes. Consumers are just zombies after all.

>>719055430
>But it's food, you have to buy food
If you're still not buying it directly from the guy who produces it, sure.

>>719046284
glad to see more level headed classical liberals out there /b/rother

>>719055420
>This could also accurately be said about the unrestricted free market.

Certainly not. In capitalism there is always an antagonistic productive relationship between capital and labor. Someone owns the factory and someone works in it, just like in feudalism someone owns the land and someone works on it. Neither are compatible with democracy because both have a built-in minority ruling class whose interests are hostile to the people as a whole. The ruling class succeeds by ensuring that the people have no political power - superficial political democracy always gets eroded to some form of corrupt managed pseudo-democracy in these systems.

>>719055743
Classical liberals: The last 250 years have taught us nothing and we're very smug about it!

>>719043747
It's bad

>>719043747
Is best, comrade.

>>719046260
go away /pol/ we dont like communists but we also dont like u

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>>719055781
>The ruling class succeeds by ensuring that the people have no political power
This is not a problem as such. I don't trust the average person to wield political power- and neither, apparently, does the average person, since as you noted all democratic systems erode. The people's primary political function is to occasionally throw off the yoke of their """oppressors""" and put on a new one.

The question is how to ensure that the one who holds the reins is someone with the interests of the nation at heart.

I honestly don't really understand communism as an idea, so this is a serious question.
From what I understand communism is about taking the power away from the "elite" and distributing it among the masses. The thing I don't understand is that someone still has to control shit. There still has to be a government.
So then how are the people in the government in a communist society any different from the "elite" in a capitalist one?
Seems like basically the same thing happens where all the power is in the hands of a few people, except that in a communist society, both the economic power and the governmental power is in the hands of the government, which basically makes an "elite" group with even more power than the ones in a capitalist one.

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>>719056126

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQe8wohdCTo

>>719056208
Well it doesn't mean that there isn't some sort of government. But the politicians wouldn't be worth more than every other random guy. Different professions, but still no class society

>>719043824
>>great in theory

If you work based on ability, what reason do you have to develop your ability?.
If you gain according to your need, what reason do you have to be frugal?

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>>719056208
>So then how are the people in the government in a communist society any different from the "elite" in a capitalist one?
They're not. The ideal is that the people govern themselves on a low level through consensus, but this has only happened once and it was so inefficient that fascists quickly crushed them. The communists literally spent all their time burning churches and terrorizing the citizenry.

>>719056208
You're talking about centralised socialism which is just as bad - but Socialism does give a lot of power to local councils (the soviets) which people had a lot of say in, and were headed by the workers.

Full communism gives all the power to these councils, and would make everyone a part of them, so everything is managed by a democracy controlled by everyone.

>>719056260
As long as they dont do anything to make communism party or anything like that,they can talk about it,the same u can talk u want to kill all jews,homos and black as long as u dont do it.Because it doesnt matter who anyone says,it doesnt cause any harm

>>719056206
Democracy is a dilution of political power that ensures that nobody can make decisions that benefit their own narrowly-conceived self-interests at the expense of the long-term good of society. It is not about handing a crown to "average people" - it is about getting rid of the crown.

>as you noted all democratic systems erode.

The erosion is caused by the actions of the underlying ruling class built into the economic substructure of society. You can't just leave that part out and make a vague, universal statement about democracy.

>The question is how to ensure that the one who holds the reins is someone with the interests of the nation at heart.

No, the question is how we can evolve beyond the need for kings - and how we can evolve beyond looking for kings to rule us. It is about growing up as a species and not crying for a metaphorical mommy or daddy to save us.

>>719056469
But how is the politician not worth more than some other random guy?
Wouldn't the people in the government (especially the higher ups) hold way more power than the random fucker working in a factory?

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>>719043747

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>>719056755

>>719056854
>communism
>liberal

This is why it's obvious that you don't know anything.

>>719056925
look here,communists are less than 1 % of populacy in 1st world countries,even if they did wanted to overthrow they woudnt even enough support from people,doesnt help that communistic parties are illegal in some countries.They just theorize about it there is no way they can make it real

>>719056643
I just don't really get how this would work.
How do you get rid of a centralized government completely?
Like, there would still have to be some sort of central government to deal with matters concerning the whole nations, so wouldn't they still hold most of the power?

>>719054729
And I asked why it is a problem.

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>>719057478

>>719057899
I wonder which system built that bus

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>>719057995

>>719057995
That's like telling a slave to get back to work because slavery built his equipment.

Communism can build a bus as well, just without fucking over the people who built it.

>>719057899
before moment u were against communism,why y show this communist propaganda,u say thats how they would make people to trust them?
also nice dubs

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>>719057995
Why would I be against communism? Communism is the future.

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>>719056789
That's not how it works. You're presupposing that you can direct humanity toward the tenets of your ideology rather than design an ideology based around human psychology.

I had a discussion with someone else on this, actually. The reason communism fails where fascism succeeds and capitalism struggles along is that the latter two take into account the tools they have to influence people whereas communism either tries to use screwdrivers to hammer in nails, or tries to create new tools.

>>719057609
Personally I don't mind centralised governments which deal with international issues, but I do believe the local populace should handle their own lives and never really be affected by the kremlin, or parliment or washington etc. This can include local planning of resources.

>>719043747
it's the perversion of anarchy

Im not a fan of liberalism and the "free" market. i think people are ignoring the big problems that liberalism brought upon us. I dont think communism is the solution tho

>>719057668
Because you lose your freedom to decide what products are made. If Wal Mart started selling shit on its shelves, you will have to buy shit. There is literally no other choice at that point. No other stores, no other products.

>>719043747
Go back to the shadows (also knows as /pol/)

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>>719057899

>>719047781
>with regulations
The corporations have our politicians by the pockets, fuck its even legal, what are lobbyists.
I know i sound crazy, but maybe the answer isn't unregulated capitalism or marxist capitalism, maybe the nordic countries have the right idea... why don't we try SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE

>>719058492
Wouldn't the centralized government still have to have power over the local governments in case of "national emergencies"?
Basically if there's a war starting or some weird shit, a whole lot of local governments wouldn't be nowhere near as effective at coming to a consensus on what should be done.
So either the centralized government has a lot of power, which would mean they basically have power over all of the capital too, which I feel is really dangerous, or all the power remains in these local governments, which I feel like makes the nations as a whole unprotected, because it's basically impossible to do anything nationwide.

>>719058731
And that's when a new store appears, selling better products, which forces wallmart to compete.

Non-issue.

>>719058923
The whole reason why the corporations have power is because the government sells their power to the corporations, without government power, there is no power to be sold, therefore the corporations have no power

>>719058319
It didnt worked so many times,how can u still believe it can work?

>>719059237
Because society as a whole has now completed the capitalist phase of development.

>>719055231
I'm not fluent in barbaric languages. Still raped your mom though.

>>719059149
Except when Walmart buys them out, or forces them out of the market because they can't compete with Walmart's high volume and low prices.

>>719059237
Because muh late capitalism, muh historical dialectic.

>>719059149
We're going in circles because you're not listening. Like has happened before, make them an offer they cant refuse, set them up for life and buy the store. And so on, and so forth.

Furthermore, the logistics behind competition is becoming unfeasable as well. A lot of these areas are too poor to start up their own companies, and their people too poor buy more expensive products. They have no other option to buy anything but shit.

>>719059304
This is so obvious that I'm convinced the "we already tried socialism" crowd is just being deliberately stupid because they masturbate to power fantasies of being a Spess Mehren in the grimdark future of corporate-fascist America.

>>719056854
>Conflates Liberalism with Communism

I can't believe someone is actually this retarded.

>>719043747
Can we talk about the number of people who have an opinion of communism without really knowing what it is?

A communist society is:

>Stateless-lacking a centralized government or political structure
>Classless-lacking any social or economic classes
>Moneyless
>Collectively owned and managed means of production

If you're not discussing a society that doesn't have those four elements, then you're not discussing communism.

>>719059209
Lobbyists pay government officials to write the new laws of what is right and wrong. Suddenly banks, & other corporations are allowed to pay us nothing and charge up the ass, now it is imposaible to save up money and make my own company.
Government are in the corporations payroll, you think there'/ a difference? They're freelancers pleb, selling your rights for cash
>corporations have no power

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>>719059575
>capitalism is the same as fascism
>everything I don't like is fascism
Nice meme.

>>719059304
serious question, what has the capitalist phase of development changed, so that now communism would not only work, but would be better than capitalism?

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>>719043747
Daily reminder these cucks are from leftypol and trying to force their bullshit upon everyone

>>719059304
No,i didnt say capitalism is good i ask why u think communism is why should replace it,there surely are better political systems

>>719056260
Do you realize communist regimes specifically targeted gays and anyone who was a threat to their ideology?

>>719059697
Well, there's about 320 million people who live in the United States, for a start.

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>>719059697
It's funny because trve communism is even easier to shit on than the "communisms" that have been implemented.

>>719059697
The Symantics have been fucked with by decades of western propaganda. Most people confuse Communism with Socialism; you just have to work with it.