Help me understand. Is the confederate flag racist or not?

>>718923673
its about as racist as a nazi flag.
the flags are racist.
its the people holding them.

1. That's not even the official Confederate flag
2. Yes

>>718923673
Yes, but it looks fucking good.

>>718923673
I view it as southerners taking pride in their heritage, but I can also see why some people would take offense to it.

Yeah it is the flag was a sign of the south that wanted to keep slaves. To bad they lost the flag looks way cooler then the one we have and I would have loved to have a slave

>>718923857
>I view it as southerners taking pride in their heritage
sure.
how about the nazi flag?
is that taking pride in their heritage?
honestly.

The confederate flag was used in the civil war as a banner for the confederate states who wished to keep slaves, but also to succede from the nation and become a seperate nation.

Some people claim it is racist because the flag represents the people who wanted to keep slavery as a part of America.

Others claim it has nothing to do with slavery, and actually is a representation of the idea of state rights, and the right to make their own laws and seccede.

You really have to make your own call and decision on this one.

It's a flag of treason

>>718923874
shitty bait

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

all the southern states who decided to secede and their reasons.

>>718923673
no. the flag is a symbol, and it is not a symbol of racism for those who embrace it.

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>>718923673
It's not, everyone here just reads history from the side that won.

>>718924157
Texas:
s. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?
The Federal Government, while but partially under the control of these our unnatural and sectional enemies, has for years almost entirely failed to protect the lives and property of the people of Texas against the Indian savages on our border, and more recently against the murderous forays of banditti from the neighboring territory of Mexico; and when our State government has expended large amounts for such purpose, the Federal Government has refuse reimbursement therefor, thus rendering our condition more insecure and harassing than it was during the existence of the Republic of Texas
you now realize that Texas has been whinning about a wall for the past 155 years.
but Trump is now president.
so yeah...he will be the first president to actually build the wall....sure sure.
#buildthewall

>>718923673
Alabama here. Flags can't be racist, but it's definitely a symbol that many racists cling to, and has historical associations with slavery and oppression during the civil rights era.

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>>718923673

The Confederate battle flag (one of which you have pictured, there were a few) is not in any way racist.

Racist people have chosen to use it from time to time but to truly be fair you will find many pictures of KKK rallies around the American flag but is that a racist flag? Of course not. People choose symbols and use them for whatever they please.

>>718923874
Same

>>718923745
>That's not even the official Confederate flag
there's not an official flag because the confederacy doesn't exist to officiate anything. it was featured prominently on the second and third national flags of the confederacy, as well as the armies of north virginia and tennessee (I think), as well as the confederate navy.

It's easily the most ubiquitous symbol of the confederacy in the present day, and has strong historical ties to the confederacy. the only people who claim "that's not the real flag" are pedantic fucks.

>>718923673
That isn't the flag of the Confederacy
That's the battle flag of Northern Virginia
Battle flags don't represent ideals
They represent the average Joes risking lives
Not racist.

The actual flag of the CSA... Could be racist

>>718923673
Is the Nazi flag antisemitic? The answer is the same.

>>718924817
>Is American flag racist?
Well if you ask BLM it is.

>>718924817
It was featured prominently on the second national flag of the confederacy (a "nation" that broke away from the union over the issue of slavery). On this flag, the white field represents the purity and supremacy of the white race. It's impossible to divorce this flag from its historical associations with slavery and oppression. "muh lynard skynard" is not a valid argument.

>>718923673
No, it's not.

The Confederacy had a different idea on running the country from the Union. The biggest gripe was slavey. No, not slavey itself, but the act of simply imposing on a legal industry as a whole.

The Union was at fault for using slavery as an excuse to impose a standard on the businesses that had slaves, without providing an alternative to such imposition.

The Confederacy was at fault for using slaves as laborers, to an extent that it was dependent on it.

Any fucking idiot with a modicum of real education will know that even niggers owned niggers. It's not about niggers.

Confederacy stood for a freedom of entrepreneurship almost entirely independent of the State.

The Union saw itself as a big part of every citizen's life.

Nowadays, snowflake millennia faggots, feminazi cunts in gender/women studies, niggers, and white-guilt faggots think that Confederate flag means racism.

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>>718925218

>>718925177

Yeah but to be fair if you ask BLM if a fucking Whopper with cheese is racist half of those crazy niggers will say yes.

>>718925218
The CSA did adopt one of their most successful and infamous battle flags as part of subsequent national flags, but it's just a part. Just like stars are a part of it, oh no flags with stars are racist now.

>>718925218

It's an inanimate object. You can hold it up and shout "History" and you would be correct. Abner over there can hold it up and should "Death to niggers" and also be correct. The two are not mutually exclusive.

>>718923673
All flags are nationalist mentality. Eventually that turns to racism to some degree.

>>718925399
this was the flag of the fight to preserve slavery
that will never change

it was resurrected during the civil rights era for another racist battle.

>>718925035
So... If over in the middle east they start making the 82nd airborne unit flag ubiquitous with America, it's now the American flag?

>>718925471
Because it's a history of killing and enslaving niggers. Of course they aren't mutually exclusive.

>>718925551
your analogy isn't complete.

If we slap it on a white background and make it our national flag, and we make it the flag of the entire US navy, and the US crumbles, and 150 years from now people associate that flag with the united states? I don't think I'd bitch about it, it's the logical symbol to go with.

>>718925549
It was the flag of those who fought for their rights.

Yes the southern states left in order to preserve slavery as the north was trying to dismantle it. The north was only trying to dismantle it however because the southern economy was more successful and the whole thing that held it together was slavery.

Slavery was a right for the states at the time, as written in the Constitution. It was also written non slave states had to return runaways. When they stopped doing that, it was the straw that broke the camel's back and the southern states began to leave the union because the contract unifying them wasn't being upheld.

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>>718923673
No

>>718923673
The confederate flag is the right wing version of the Che T-shirt.

>>718925783
I can see your point, though I'll still disagree when people call it the national flag of the CSA.

That being said, the battle flag/naval jack is not inherently racist

>>718925783
>If we slap it on a white background and make it our national flag,
but that isn't what happened.

its as if
the united states first official flag is the one we know today.
and then one day somebody decided to say that the official flag of the US is the Texas flag.
then others started saying the same thing.
150 years later everybody assumes that the offical US flag is the Texas flag.
...it just isnt.
the official US flag is the official US flag.

>>718925927
>It was the flag of those who fought for their rights.
namely, the right to own slaves and transport them across state lines, to have runaways returned to slavery, as well as the right of states newly added to the union to own slaves.

>>718923673
It's covert racism. As much as they cry about it being for history or heritage or whatever, if they display it, that means they're racist.

>>718926049
How's that?

>>718926069
But that was a right. If it was such a terrible thing the north wouldn't have compromised to allow it in their nation in the first place. The north wasn't any less racist, they just didn't have an economic system dependent on forced labor.

>>718925347
Underrated post

>>718925035
you just sound stupid when you call it the Confederate flag.
just because others agree with you doesn't make you right, dumbass.
facts are facts.

>>718925927
Slavery was unconstitutional. That means it's the southern states that broke the contract by maintaining slavery.

All they had to do was phase slavery out of the economy, like all the other industrial nations were going, but it seems Bubba liked his sex slaves too much, so he needed a lesson is law enforcement.

But do keep crying, slavery supporter tears are so sweet.

>>718926071
Most people I know who fly the confederate flag love black people, rarely say the word "nigger", and believe in racial equality

>said no one ever

>>718926358
How was it unconstitutional? It was literally allowed and had clauses providing for it in the Constitution lol

>>718926365
i can't wait in 150 years when we see Germans saying the same thing.
"b-b--but i-i-i-in Buddhism it means blah blah blah and muy heritage"

>>718923950
Get of your soapbox. Yeah southerners are mouth-breathers, but how can you compare southern pride to the Nazi party? I can understand the KKK or aryan brotherhood flag. Dont be dick.

>>718926316
And the fact is, it is the flag currently most associated with the Confederacy, and this is because of its historical usage BY the Confederacy itself.

If someone said it was the national flag of the Confederacy, they're wrong (thought it was the main part of the second and third national flags).

The confederacy was only around for what, 4 years? It didn't exist long enough to create a single ubiquitous flag that represented it for generations, and the Southern Cross was the most prominent symbol it created.

>>718924019
>succede
Secede

>>718925229
good one

>>718926622
>flag flown to preserve slavery, which basically caused a genocide of africans killed in the slave trade both in the journey and in captivity
>families torn apart, people beaten, branded, and tortured

vs.

>flag of the nation that fought to kill jews and gypsies
>families torn about, genocide, people killed and tortured

You're right, I just don't see it.

>>718926535
The "Confederate flag" is a battle flag. It symbolizes those who fought for their beliefs.

The nazi flag is literally the flag to represent a party with ideology based upon hatred.

Apples and oranges.

>>718923673
no

>>718926787
See
>>718926535

>>718926365
I used to live in the second most conservative county in Pennsylvania, measured by percentage of Republican votes. Almost all whites there. You'd see confederate flags outside houses. It was common knowledge growing up that if you saw that flag in front of somebody's house it meant "blacks not welcome".

People can argue about the flag all they want. If it's displayed in a museum or something like that, then it's about history. If it's used anywhere else, it's about racism. Say what you want about what it used to stand for. That's what it stands for now.

If the Confederacy was so bad and immoral, why did they have the blessings of the Pope at the time?

>>718926830
It represents the battles fought to preserve slavery.

It was also prominent on the second and third national flags of the confederacy, so I'd say it's pretty tied to the ideology of the confederacy. That ideology, as outlined in the articles of secession, includes the belief that the direct cause of the civil war was the issue of slavery.

>>718926958
It only stands for what people agree it stands for, and most people can't agree on what it means today. Therefore your interpretation of it being racist is just as valid as heritage and remembering states rights.

>>718926958
The rural, appalachian parts of Pennsylvania are as redneck as Mississippi, my condolences.

>>718923673
Yes, also treasonous.

>>718926980
they didn't.

>>718926980
If Mussolini was so bad, why did he have the blessing of the Pope?

>>718926997
It represents the battle fought to preserve a states sovereignty. It just so happened that those states wanted to use their sovereignty to preserve slavery.

And honestly, the war only stated because the north refused to accept the legitimacy of the Southern secession and wouldn't withdraw troops from another country. Quite hypocritical since the northern states had threatened secession before the civil war as well.

>>718927085
If you want to show pride in your heritage, then just pick some other visual symbol instead of the one that can be interpreted as racist.

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>>718923673
To some.. no. Its a historical thing, a symbol of a rebellious life style (Or more accurately, getting drunk and doing dumb shit all day)
To others, yes. It represents the southern struggle for states rights. You know.. the right to own slaves.

>The "Confederate flag" is a battle flag. It symbolizes those who fought for their beliefs.
>The nazi flag is literally the flag to represent a party with ideology based upon hatred.

the ignorance or straight up stupidity of those two sentences.

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html
The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States
(in your browser search for slave)

Old Dixie is a symbol of independence and freedom. It is a bad symbol to bad people. For good people it is a source of pride.

>>718927287
>>718926830

>>718927253
That wasn't the only right dumb ass

learning is fun...

Thats not the Confederate flag. That's a remake of the Confederate flag that was created in the 1900s. It was the defining symbol of a political party known as "The Dixiecrats" who's platform was segregation, and why it's great. That particular flag in your post, is racist as shit, and isn't the actual Confederate flag. However, a bunch of fucking morons think it is.

- An anon from the south.

>>718926830
>being proud that your heritage fought to keep people slaves
So as long as you had a specific Nazi battle flag, it's K. That's your argument.

>>718927180
The Pope recognized the CSA as a legitimate nation.
>>718927189
He didn't, the Pope at that time didn't bless Mussolini nor did he condemn, he purposefully remained passive so as not to take a side since he was appreciative of the axis "reigning in the children of Jerusalem"

>>718927386
http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

these were the official reasons as to why they seceded.
slavery mentioned 83 times.

>That wasn't the only right dumb ass
that is like saying the Nazis didn't just spend their time killing jews!

>>718927249
Such as?
There are no other symbols that really came out of the Confederacy.

>>718927477
kys, the flag has deep ties to the confederacy and dates to the early 1860s

-another anon from the south

As some one who lives in Mississippi, the flag its self is not racist, but the ideology that it represents is quite clearly racist. Personally, I hate it, because people who have it on their cars and houses give the rest of the South a bad name.

>>718927287
Slavery was a state right though.
It was a right the north was okay with until the south controlled the national economy.

>>718927630
>The Pope recognized the CSA as a legitimate nation.
Which isn't even close to the same thing as blessing them. And even this recognition isn't firm, he just called Davis "the president of the CSA" in a letter, he never legally recognized the existence of the Confederacy or had diplomatic ties with the nation.

>>718923673
If the Confederacy itself was racist, yes--it would be the symbol of a racist rebel state and therefore a symbol of racism itself.

Was the Confederacy racist?

>>718927778
>I hate it, because people who have it on their cars and houses give the rest of the South a bad name.
If you're from the South and don't agree with this, you're the reason our region is the butt of every joke.

>>718927780
so by your logic.
The Nazi's had the right to kill Jews.
no reason to stop that.

>>718923673
Anyone who disagrees with a liberal about anything is automatically racist. As are things liberals don't like such as personal responsibility, small government, guns, and freedom.

>>718926358
the funny thing that some of these arguments don't take into account is that when Lincoln took office, he knew that slavery was such a hot bed issue that he wasn't going to touch it and risk fracturing the union. but the south seceded anyway and sped things along nicely, otherwise the US would have to have waited out slavery before it ended.

>>718923673
Depends on how the owner displays it, treats it, and acts. Symbols are only racist if you make them so. Does he just have a single flag somewhere or is it on half the shit he owns? Does he just calmy have it displayed somewhere or does he have it on the most prominent position he could find and incessantly points it out our talks about it? If some one confronts him about it does he just kinda brush them off or does he go into a huge tirade about heritage and muh freedoms?

>>718927866
IT WAS A LEGAL RIGHT GRANTED TO THEM BY THE MORAL AUTHORITY OF THE FUHRER

>>718927601
The southern states left the union because the northern states were failing to uphold the Constitution. If one party doesn't do their part of the contract, you either sue or the contract is null and void.

The actual fighting began because the north refused to recognize the legal secession of the Confederate States.

>>718923673
Fucking google it you pleb, why would you ask here

>>718927705
Don't ask me to come up with a symbol. Pick one for yourself. Find another old image or just make a new one. It's just stupid to keep using a controversial image when you constantly have to defend it. Clearly the original message has been lost. Cut bait and move on to something else. Plenty of ways to express support for troops or history or whatever. Just stop trying to shoehorn this particular symbol. It'll never be taken seriously again.

>>718927956
exactly.

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>>718927837

>>718927795
Honorable president*
Kinda hard to establish diplomatic ties when your nations born and immediately in conflict.
It was enough for the union to cut ties with the Vatican for awhile.

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>>718927705
Thats the point... what other cultural achievements did the Confederacy offer. They are just holding onto a symbol. An ideology that none of them ever experienced. They are just looking at the issue through rose tinted glasses, romanticizing the idea of small government and states rights being equal to their own vision of Freedom.
Its a dying idea. They just want a symbol to hold onto. Nothing else of value came from that period. Except maybe blues music? From the slaves?

>>718928028
fucking mexicans

>>718928064
So what you're saying is the Pope didn't bless the Confederacy?

>>718923673
Since everyone is talking about it and not posting it, the offcial flag of the Confederacy, v1.0

>>718926980
Uhh wut?

Pius IX was nice enough to respond to a letter.... that's it. If he really supported or 'blessed' the confederacy Pius wouldn't have discouraged Ambrose Dudley Mann from recruiting Irish and Belgian catholics to fight for the confederacy.

>>718927866
They had the right to treat their citizens however they wanted. The issue and the fighting happened because of their invasion of other sovereign nations.

>>718928162
way to go champ

>>718925275
and version 3.0

>>718927837
Yes and no. The Confederacy was established to preserve slavery, but even Jefferson Davis and Lee believed it should phase out eventually and that it would.

The people of the Confederacy were no less racist than the people of the Union.

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>>718928199
lol... wtf? my images...
Version 1.4

>>718927992
So.... If I pick a new symbol to represent exactly what the current one does... How long before it gets labeled racist and me a bigot?

>>718928272
that's version 2.0
there is no 3.0 really, just a 2.1

>>718928179
yeah. and the the Confederates tried to take US land.
the United States paid for all those southern states land from other countries.
same as if i were to stop paying taxes.
even if i owned my home.
guess what?
they're taking your home.

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>>718928099

>>718924699
Bama here as well.
The way I understand it, that is the Confederate battle Flag. There were a few variations of the CSA flag just as there were for the USA.
From what I read, the Civil War actually started with the North firing at trade ships that were under embargo. North tried to sanction South from selling to Europe because not paying taxes, South did it anyways. North fired the first shots at ships set for sail. War happens. It's always over money.

>>718928145
I'm not the anon that said he did, but he did recognize the CSA.

>>718928475
fort sumter
o
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t

s
u
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t
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>>718923673
It's the symbol of the losers. Why are they so proud of being losers? Yay, we lost! Don't forget about us losing, everyone! I habe so much pride in my loser ancestors that I'm going to fly their loser flag so everyone knows I'm a descendant of the wrong side of the Civil War. Derp.

>>718928514
not in any official capacity

>>718928093
The nation didn't even exist ten years, hard to make a cultural achievement I'm that time frame lol.

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>>718928418
Agreed. Why'd they bother anyway?
Version 2.1

A flag can't be racist. It has no will. Racism is based on a personally held belief that one race is superior to another. Flags have no sentience and therefore can't hold beliefs.

>>718925229
>Nowadays, snowflake millennia faggots, feminazi cunts in gender/women studies, niggers, and white-guilt faggots think that Confederate flag means racism.

The Confederacy was largely formed to protect the institution of slavery. Slavery was racist. Show me some point in the history of the south where white slavery was as rampant and widespread as black slavery and tell me again that the stars and bars doesn't reflect inherently racist values.

>>718928416
Depends on how long it takes for the mouth breathing racists to adopt it too.

>>718928591
because when the wind wasn't blowing you couldn't see the corner of the flag, so it looked like you were just flying a white flag (ie surrendering)

>>718928173
Could you provide proof?
Also he can recognize and legitimize a cause without wanting his own people to die for it ya know.

>>718928611
inb4 he tells you about how the irish totes had it worse than africans

>>718925229
This anon is correct. There were free blacks that owned other blacks. These free blacks fought for the CSA. Of course this will never be taught in schools and is almost wiped from history.
>The winners of war write history

Yeah, the Democrats who wanted to keep slaves wore this flag with pride
The Republicans in the north decided the free the slaves and take down that Democratic party nonsense

>>718928431
The only land the Confederates tried to take were the actual federal lands, the military forts, because they were all over in the middle of their new nation.
The federal government actually doesn't own the states you realize.

>>718928765
>outliers define history now

>>718928431
The US didn't pay for the southern states?
Additionally if they had, wouldn't it have been with the money they made off the exports taxing the more successful production economy of the south

>>718928569
It was official enough for Congress to get pissy and stop talking to the Vatican for a couple years in 1867

>>718928921
I don't think the Mississippi territory was very profitable before it was purchased...

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>>718923673
It can also be used to line the bottom of the bird cage too!

>>718924019
/thread

>>718923673
That is the flag of the democrats. Democratic are racist as fuck, so yea, that flag is racist.

>>718928611
is there something wrong with that? since they've been given freedom what have they done with it. In nations where they're native what has their civilisations become?

>>718928475
South fired the first shots actually. Fired upon the Star of the West which was a "trade ship" but also had supplied to restock Fort Sumter

>>718928968
kinda like how people are pissed at trump for taking a call from taiwan even though the US still doesn't legally recognize the country

>>718928544
Because standing up for what is right and having the ability to do so is 100% American and you should never feel like you can't? Better to die free than live subject to tyranny

>>718925229
>It's not about niggers.
This guy knows whats up.
It's about the ruling class, keeping us divided and making up issues to keep us busy.
The real problem was slavery. that is always the REAL struggle of the people. Keep the ruling class in check.
So no its not a symbol of Racism.
It IS a symbol of a time when the elite once went to war over their right to treat the working class like slaves.

>>718929068
doesn't matter that they're useless, they still need a chance and it's against human nature / immoral to own another person. Imagine being a prodigy yourself born into a race of good-for-nothings and never getting a chance to do something important because you're forced to pick cotton all day long.

>>718928611
The united States was formed so every man be equal and free.
Except blacks
Creation of our nation was racist
US flag is racist.

>>718923673
No. It's just treacherous

>>718929105
Except trump has also stated that he doesn't believe in one China as anything more than a bargaining chip, and us stance hasn't changed because he's not in office yet

>>718928802
The Louisiana Purchase (French: Vente de la Louisiane "Sale of Louisiana") was the acquisition of the Louisiana territory (828,000 square miles) by the United States from France in 1803.

The Adams–Onís Treaty of 1819,[1] also known as the Transcontinental Treaty,[2] the Florida Purchase Treaty,[3] or the Florida Treaty,[4][5] was a treaty between the United States and Spain in 1819 that ceded Florida to the U.S. and defined the boundary between the U.S. and New Spain.

>>718929204
it was a time when working class whites were duped into fighting for the "rights" of rich plantation owners, whose use of slavery made it much more difficult for the average farmer to make a profit.

> people arguing that racism was coincidental
Literally they seceded to be racist. They secession want recognized because they seceded so they could continue being racist.
It's a flag tied to a racist nation, that fought for their racism. If you're proud of that heritage, you're proud of racism. If you support this flag, you are racist.

>>718929252
if it was against human nature than slavery never would have existed to begin with. morality is just some made up shit, and differs depending on one's perspective.

>>718928802
>The federal government actually doesn't own the states
I think the Civil War established that yes, in fact, it does (now).

i don't really care about the symbolism, but it's stupid to hang the flag of a defeated secessionist state in government buildings

This song ought to clear things up

https://youtu.be/KSurzeGvPrQ

>>718929575
Probably the most accurate post ITT.

>>718929536
i guess it is, but we can agree that all men should be treated as equals and given equal opportunity.

It doesn't matter, it's a fucking flag. pieces of fabric sewn together. Those who actually run the US are just using some old, irrelevant shit to keep the people divided. If you want to fly the flag, fly the flag. If you don't like it, turn your head the other way. Simple.

>>718929536
*if it were against human nature

>>718929502
actually it was economics, they had to have free labor to continue making themselves rich.If a way came about that cost less before the war. the war would have never happened.

>>718923673
Who cares, its the flag of treason, so its unamerican by default. fuck off kike shill

>>718929536
civilized human nature, I meant to say. We're civilized now.

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>>718929536

>>718927888
Trips of truth. There was actually a letter from Lincoln stating that the States with slavery could keep on having it as long as no more territories would have it. Kinda like a grandfather clause to appease them. South gave him the middle finger and shit got real.

>>718929712
why should lesser men be treated the same. you wouldn't treat some downy the same you would a genius.

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This thread isn't filling with bullshit fast enough. Does anybody have some YLYL garbage they could contribute, preferably very quickly?

>>718923673
No

>>718929575
Agreed.

>>718929763
>ve had to kill ze jews and slavs to create lebensraum! zare vuz no uzzer vay!

>>718927992
The exact same could be said about the current USA flag. I'm sure many people across the globe don't see the Star Spangled Banner as the flag of freedom and hope that a lot of Americans remember it being representative of.

>>718929763
> their economy was based on free labor
> aka slavery
> they enslaved a singular race

Cause for the racism is not important. The confederate states fought for that racism. It is racist to support their ideals.

>>718929982
no what i was getting at is if slave labor was costing more it would have been abolished sooner and no one would have given a fuck since they could make more money through other methods.

>>718930095
at the same time, the very nation itself wasn't created over the singular issue of slavery. and it survived, grew, and thrived as a nation, doing both good and bad in the world, as any nation does. the confederacy broke away over slavery, killed a bunch of americans, then ceased to exist- that's its entire history.

>>718929878
exactly. no states were going to lose the right to slavery, which kinda takes the 'states' rights' argument off the table.

and what do we have left without that argument? just a burning cross.

>>718929895
people with down syndrome can be cool, im friends with one and he's a really nice guy, excellent taste in music and he really understands the shit i'm going through.

i'd like to believe that they're lesser men because all evidence points to that, but something inside me says they still deserve a chance, if only they'd raise their children not to be so entitled. thoughts/ personal info for further discussion?

>>718930231
And if it weren't for slaves Roman rulers couldn't have embarked on their many building projects. Doesn't make it ok. The difference is Romans weren't as racist, they'd enslave just about anybody.

>>718930379
>tfw the Old Testament has clauses about treatment of slaves and having to forgive all debts every 52 years

>>718930479
I know the OT has rules about the manumission of Jewish slaves (jubilee), but are they required to release gentiles? I'd need to see a verse on that.

>>718930534
have you ever really closely read the OT?! Technically we're not even allowed to go to the bathroom.

>>718930479
>>718930534
nevermind found it. jewish slaves are to be released every 7 years, all other slaves wait 50 years

>>718929437
I stand corrected technically, but my other point still stands, that money was gained off the backs of the slave states

>>718930630
I have. Started studying up on the vestiges of Canaanite polytheism that you find throughout the OT because I kept coming across verses that seemed odd. Plus the whole "bridegroom of blood" thing with Moses? OT is some weird shit, lots of interesting narratives though.

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>>718930534
Don't have he exact verse, haven't read that shit since grade school.
But yes, it does specify the differences around he same area of the 7 year break and the 52 year forgiving debt, if I recall correctly.

>>718930630
Ha.

>>718930101
The Yankees were literally just as racist they just didn't have an economic model based on slavery dude.

>>718930827
formed over the very issue of chattel slavery? Confederacy. The rest of the shit? Unfortunately for many rednecks, the Confederacy didn't exist long enough to commit further atrocities.

>>718929549
Eh maybe now, depending on how you want to spin ownership. It certainly didn't then though.

LA here. My catholic high school mascot was a rebel. Basically a caricature of plantation owner, similar to something like "the fighting irish". We were "rebels", flew the rebel flag and still had black people in a school of 95% white people who were overwhelmingly not racist.

I could wave a union jack and shout "DIE NIGGERS" but that wouldn't make the UK a racist country. I see no reason to vilify the confederate flag/south just because some people who wave it shout "DIE NIGGERS".

When the flag is taken down from upstanding citizens/goverment buildings, the only people left waving it are the racists. So now, OP, yes, it is considered a racist symbol.

And now that almost all retailers have decided to disparage southern heritage, it makes me what to buy the flag at 400% mark up from one of the few people that still sell them and wave it in my front yard.

Essentially, non racist white people would have to "take it back"... like "porch monkey".

>>718930827
you really think the gov. is responsible for more blacks being in prison than college? seriously?

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>>718923673
If it offends niggers an nigger lovers I love it

>>718930878
but they didn't fight to preserve slavery, so...

no one is saying this makes them more moral than the average confederate soldier, but it doesn't mean that the cause of the confederacy was just, or worth the bloodshed

>>718931107
>Basically a caricature of plantation owner, similar to something like "the fighting irish".
that little rebel dude is about as ubiquitous as bulldogs or tigers as far as school mascots in the deep south go.

>>718924019
The Confederate flag was used for all states south of the Mason Dixon. Not all southern states had not wished to own slaves. Learn your history.

>>718930790
i was stating that just because the governors of those southern states decided to secede, it doesn't give them the right to take the US land.

if texas/alabama/georgia/florida/etc fought for their land or paid for it then i could understand the reason for seceding but it was never theirs to own, it was only theirs to control.

>>718923673
The American civil war wasn't mainly about slavery. It was about the right to seperate and the independence of the states as opposed to federal rule. Slavery played a very minimal part in the motivations for the war. Associating the confederate battle flag with racism and slavery is just blatant ignorance of history and historical context. It's the equivalent of associating the iron cross with naziism.

>>718931450
literally the 3rd time posting this:
http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

>>718929632
As a native Texan and transplant Alabamian, I hate country music, but that was ok I guess.

>>718931184
If you really want to start splitting hairs, the south didn't fight to protect slavery. They left the nation and made their own to protect slavery.
They fought because the north went lalala with their fingers in their ears and refused to accept the Confederacy as a nation.

The president of the Confederacy knew slavery wasn't good and that it would and should phase out eventually, but the northern states putting pressure in Congress to cripple them economically and remove slavery is what made them leave. They still got crippled economically in Reconstruction, but at least they tried

>>718931463
But the united States government didn't own the land any ore once they gave it to the state governments.

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>>718931450

>>718931491
>It was about the right to seperate
and why did they want to separate?

>Slavery played a very minimal part in the motivations for the war.
According the the Vice President of the Confederacy (see Cornerstone Speech) and the Declaration of Causes for Secession of most of the states themselves, it was THE motivation for the war.
>>718924157

>>718931551
And still nobody cares.

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>>718931815
>i don't care about "facts"
>>718931551

>>718931491
Symbols take on a life of their own after they're established. The iron cross was just a symbol; now displaying it says "HEY I WANNA KILL SOME JEWS". The confederate battle flag was a symbol, and one only used by the army, not by the governing body in question - but displaying it now says "FUCK THE NIGGERS."

Hell, the swastika used to be a commonly-seen good luck charm in the 10s-30s.

>>718931896
iron cross and swastika predate nazis though

>>718931799
No it was THE motivation for leaving the union. THE motivation for fighting was the northern states hypocrisy in failing to recognized the southern states seceded even though they had threatened secession before too, just pussied out and didn't follow through.

>>718923673
it's as racist as trap threads are gay

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>>718931450
south carolina

>>718931890
No I don't care because that's the reason for leaving, not the reason for the war. Back then, they had every right to leave the union for whatever reason they chose to.

>>718931951
>I'm a dumbass redneck that doesn't pay attention

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>>718931450
texas

>>718924019
>state's rights
That's because they don't understand the Ninth and Tenth amendments. Also, they don't consider black people (or queers) as equals under the law. They're just blowing the old segregationist dog whistle (see: State's Rights Democratic Party).

In short, it's the battle flag of LOSERS and it's been picked up by stupid fucking rednecks.

>>718931799
The confederates just didn't want the federal government to dictate how they run their states. The president of the confederacy himself wanted to faze out slaver later on their own terms. The point flew way over your head.

>>718923673
No.

>>718932033
If you read what isn't highlighted as well, you see they have a compelling argument to leave actually.

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>>718932067
they had no reason to start the war.
the US was just taking their land back from the traitors.

>>718931896
The iron cross has never been seen as an antisemitic symbol. If you think the iron cross has anything to do with nazism you are an idiot.

>>718931574
Been in AL for over 20 years now and what I see is so many interracial couples. Black guys/white chicks. white guys/black chicks and because of the Uni here, many more mixes. It's changed a lot in 20 yrs actually. I remember when hate for whitey was strong, there were remnants of indentured black slaves sold by their family to pay old debts. Shits changed and many of those I work with (black) like to joke with their version of nigger jokes (that's that white people shit). Nigger jokes are equivalent to dead baby jokes, just sick humor. Racism in the South might have it's pockets but it's been a non-issue for a long time. Like almost any community, it's usually the youth that are a bunch of dumbshits stirring up trouble. Us oldfags, black and white, know the South is just a chill place to do what you want in the country.

>>718932071
yes, you are. so I'll explain it for you. the confederate flag began with the confederacy, there is no other interpretation of its origin, not other uses in history other than by people invoking the confederacy. the same is not true of the swastika, which (unlike the flag) is a symbols that has been used across many cultures for millennia and had various meanings.

so while you can say that a swastika doens't always relate to the fight to kill jews, the confederate flag is inexorably tied to the fight to enslave blacks

>>718932273
The US government didn't own the land.
There was no treason, as secession was legal.

>>718926682
You missed
>seperate

>>718925347
You can't taste racism, baby

>>718923673
flags aren't racist. people are. learn to use your brain.

>>718932405
> a symbol that represents a racist ideology can't be racist
Welcome to the discourse. You're about an hour late.

>>718932360
see:
>>718929437
the governors didn't own any of that land either.
the US either bought the land or took it (from mexico or the savages)

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>>718932348
>symbols change over time and are more akin to concepts, with the meaning open to interpretation, than words with definitions grounded in reality

>>718932146
then they should have listened with lincoln when he tried to reason and negotiate with them instead of being obstinate rednecks and starting a war.

>i]n the prewar period, as well as into the first months of the [ American Civil War ] itself....Lincoln believed it prudent to administer a slow death to slavery through gradual emancipation and voluntary colonization rather than to follow the abolitionist and demanding an immediate end to slavery without compensation to owners."

>>718932538
The idea of rebellion against the federal government isn't racist. Take a fucking history class for christ sake.

>>718932360
>as secession was legal.
https://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2010/02/26/james-madison-on-secession/

>>718932629
The governor's don't own it of course, the state government itself owns it's land. And the governor's, as the executors of the will of the state, back then could call for secession with the agreement of the legislature and it was 100% legal.

>>718932703
Lincoln himself said that he'd wanted to maintain slavery, he just buckled under pressure. He wasn't as much a saint as everyone tries to make him out as.

>>718932710
federal govt:
>we won't return your runaway slaves and will fight the expansion of slavery into new territories. also you can't bring your slaves here.
confederacy
>YES WE CAN AND WE'LL RIGHT CAUSES OF SECESSION THAT RAIL ABOUT SLAVERY AND THE RIGHT TO KEEP BLACKS AS SLAVES
>THEN WE'LL MAKE A NATIONAL FLAG WITH A BIG WHITE FIELD TO SYMBOLIZE WHITE RACIAL SUPERIORITY

That entire war was fought in order to keep slavery a thing lmao. Black people were forced to fight under that flag because they had no choice to. It's literally pro slavery symbolism. We don't walk around saluting like hitler did and rocking swastikas anymore.

>>718932929
I don't think it was a moral failing, he wanted to minimize the bloodshed and prevent a civil war. he was a practical man.

>>718932710
The idea of rebelling primarily to hold onto Slavery most certainly is.

>>718932847
back then could call for secession with the agreement of the legislature and it was 100% legal.
>>718932360
There was no treason, as secession was legal.
[citation needed]

>>718933091
WE

>>718933095
No, you're claiming that secession was illegal. Therefore you're claiming a federal law existed or a clause in the Constitution that barred it.
The burden of proof is on you since you're the one claiming something existed.

>>718933268
No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation….

>>718932931
You're an absolute fucking moron if you actually think that. The civil war was a complex conflict that did not necessarily have a good vs evil slant. Your shitty American educational system just can't properly educate you as to what the historical context was.

>>718932375
You can. And it is sweet, oh so sweet.

>>718932944
Holy fuck you're ignorant.

>>718933300
I actually don't know what you're quoting there.

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>>718932944
>we don't walk around saluting like hitler
Uh... Wow. NeoNazis are still a thing, Anon.

>>718933308
It can't educate us because the winners write the history books and theyre spouting falsehoods, which causes those who know what really happened to be upset.

>>718933384
U.S. Constitution - Article 1 Section 10

>>718933023
Look. The point is the civil war is incredibly more complex than everyone makes it out to be. To be brutally honest I don't think the general public should talk about history as if they know anything about it. The general public, especially the American public, knows next to nothing about anything historical. I had an American buddy actually tell me they teach that they won the war of 1812.

>>718933071
Slavery just happened to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Tensions had been rising between the North and the south for years.

>>718933525
Thanks, Anon.
Why do people think it was called "the Confederacy"? What they were doing was unconstitutional and they fucking knew it.

>>718933308
>he civil war was a complex conflict

This is a simple point that most people won't understand, because despite this event being the defining event in our history, it is generally covered only briefly in public education. The result is a population who can probably spit out a little bit of trivia - a couple of names, a battle or 2, maybe the century it occurred - but has no contextual knowledge of it. In their minds, the country was going along, then suddenly one morning there's a war, it lasts for however long they think it lasts, then it ends and the country continues on its way. The reality is decades and decades of political tension, real political tension. Not the "I think Trump is a racist and I'm mad about it #notmypresident" kinds of people think is tension. The kind of tension where states believe their local power is under threat from a federal government to the point that they will take up arms against it. I don't think people realize the complexity of this event, and they show that when they regurgitate simplistic lines like "the war was fought over slavery", even though abolition was not a specific motivating factor until well into the war when Lincoln rebranded the north's mission when the war was going badly, much as Bush did in Iraq.

Not really. The Civil War wasn't even about race until after 1863 or so.

The Confederacy would have had to eventually abolish slavery if they had won the war anyways.

The only people that make it about race are the idiots that actually call people "nigger", and liberals who don't do research.

>>718933525
But... The states left the union, therefore the Constitution doesn't apply to them anymore.

>>718933493
I'm lucky I learnt about the American civil war from an outside context so there isn't really a bias towards either side

>>718933859
>simplistic lines like "the war was fought over slavery", even though abolition was not a specific motivating factor until well into the war
because the US fought to preserve the union. the confederacy seceded over the the issue of slavery.

>>718933970
So what is your take on the causes then?

>>718934073
orange shortage

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>>718925035
>it's not official because the Confederacy isn't around to officiate
No, it's not official because that's the Confederate battle flag. Pic related is the real Confederate flag (or at least the original).

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>>718933906
it was never about race.
not really.
it was about slavery.
just so happened that they wanted to keep enslaving the nigger race...
pic related

>>718933474
We still have KKK members burning crosses too.

>>718923673
Only if you're a dumbshit liberal that thinks they're educated.

“As a people we are fighting to maintain the heavenly ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. Such a flag would be a suitable emblem of our young confederacy, and sustained by the brave hearts and strong arms of the south, it would soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN’S FLAG.” this is an actual quote from the man that designed that confederate flag. You wana say again that it's not racist?

>>718934031
>the confederacy seceded over the the issue of slavery.

See, you can't just say slavery, because then people think we're talking about abolition. Slavery was an issue in the sense that as new territories were admitted to the union, whether or not they would enter as slave or free states threatened to tip the balance of power in Congress. That's the major source of political tension. The south saw power being stacked against them in Washington. Abolition had nothing to do with it.

>>718934162
for two years, then:
>>718925275

>>718923673
No. The American civil war was fought over states' rights to secede from the Union - not over slavery. The Union attacked the Confederacy first - not the other way around. Technically, it was a failed war for independence, because the Confederacy wasn't interested in absorbing the Union - just in being able to do what they wanted to.

>>718934073
Tensions were escalating between more socially and religiously conservative states and the more "progressive" (for lack of a better word" federal government. The states wanted more legal power than the federal government. They wanted to be their own governing force so they decided that succeeding was their best bet. The last deciding factor though, for some of these states to separate was slavery, but it wasn't just simply slavery.

>>718934247
>ust so happened that they wanted to keep enslaving the nigger race...

Of course they did, but at no point in the beginning of the war was Lincoln or anyone else in the federal government threatening abolition.

>>718934352
Right. I didn't think abolition was implicit, but you might be right that people can and will assume that it is.

>>718934490
>succeeding

Just get out, you don't know what you're talking about.

>>718934314
Yeah. I know. It's fucking crazy.

>>718934581
My gay phone did autocorrect. So sue me.

>>718934581
I scored badly on english but I got real good marks in historie.

>>718934593
>>718934314

There are less than 10,000 active KKK members in the US. Let's not pretend they are relevant.

>>718927962
What do you think would happen if half the country tried to leave today? You think that the government would let them? No. Just like back then.

>>718934352
This. The initial issue that resulted in the secession of the CSA was over Congressional power. All the slave states tended t agree with each other, and all of the free states did he same. However, the free states wanted to introduce rules into which new states could and couldn't become slave states, and the slave states wanted new states to be able to choose. Essentially, it was an issue of centralized vs localized power.

>>718934502
lol.
the north already abolished it.
it was only a matter of time.
this is exactly why they were upset with the north.
the north wasn't upholding its end of contract (Constitution)
if the north wasn't upholding its end of the contract then why should the south?
their nigger property would flee to the North where the Northerners wouldn't give the Southerners their nigger property back...like the constitution said it should.

the north would never be able to compete with the south as long as slavery was still a thing.
just like hiring illegals disrupts the markets.
sooner or later there would be laws against it.
just like there are laws against hiring wetbacks.

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>>718933619
native americans deff lost... England and America won the war, the natives got fucked, thats what they teach us faggot

>>718934581
The classic "you wrote a word wrong so your entire argument is invalidated". Absolute definite proof you're a fucking idiot.

>>718934741
Less than 10k who are known and pay dues. How many more wipipo would throw on the robes and lynch negroes if it were more socially acceptable to do so?

>>718934767
>What do you think would happen if half the country tried to leave today? You think that the government would let them? No. Just like back then.

If states wanted to leave, then the situation would already be extremely grim, and the states would likely have a very good reason to leave. What's the government going to do, send the military to attack the states? I don't think today's military is going to participate in that. Mass defections. Then you'll have Russia coming in on the side of the rebels, Europe on the side of the feds. Mass chaos. Feds would lose that one, and the world would officially be in the shitter for a very long time without a strong US.

>>718933619
Technically nobody won the war of 1812 - the Treaty of Ghent favored no one, just reset everything to the way it was before.

>>718934767
Well that depends. Today there are laws and things in place. 2/3 the current States have to approve another state legally leaving. But assuming that happened, the federal government's hands would be tied.

>>718934881
Told me they taught that the English lost and they won. But this was back in the 80s though so they might have changed it. It's still wrong though. You lost the war. Just like nam.

>>718934879

leave the thread dummy.

>>718923673
no ignore the niggers

>>718935088
Idk guys you got your White House burnt the fuck to the ground. Kinda sounds like you lost bud.

>>718934975

Making a typo is one thing. Not knowing the difference between secession and succession means there's a high probability you know little about the topic.

>>718923673
It's just as racist as the African, Mexican or any other flag they run around with.

>>718935271
you realize we're talking about an actual war and not some capture-the-flag shit on xbox right?

>>718935296
My fucking autocorrect botched it. Fucking hang me from the gallows.

>>718935296
And he said it was a typo, so stfu

>>718935271
>Kinda sounds like you lost bud.

Suffering a loss in the war is not the same as losing the war. Losing the war implies that our military was routed and we surrendered. That didn't happen. Treaty was signed and war ended. The end. Be less dumb.

>>718935403
You're just agro cause you got your whitehouse lit the fuck up you little bitch.

>>718935521
Your military was gay and fucked horses.

>>718935179
In the present case, that fact is established with certainty. We assert that fourteen of the States have deliberately refused, for years past, to fulfill their constitutional obligations, and we refer to their own Statutes for the proof.

The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."

This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which now composes the States north of the Ohio River.

>>718935538
still mad you couldn't put down a little colonial rebellion?

>>718935791
I betcha they took a huge dump on its doorstep.

>>718923874

>I would have loved to have a slave

No anon, you'd have been the slave.

>>718923745
this

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>>718935521
KEEP TELLING YOURSELF THAT, FAGGOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>718936148
I'm sorry you got the horse mouth, and lack of caring for teeth genes britbong

>>718923874
By today, you still wouldn't have a slave because slavery would have phased out like Jefferson Davis wanted.

>>718936925
The way people are still acting, I don't believe it

>>718923673
It's a symbol of unpatriotic and anti-American terrorist sympathisers

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>>718936925
Not really. The war wasn't fought over slavery it was fought over states rights. Also Lincoln provoked the firing on fort Sumter to start the civil war as he stated in letters to his friends in congress because like he said. Someone needs to pay for the government.

http://www.tulane.edu/~sumter/Reflections/LinWar.html

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>>718929829
Of course we are.

>>718937966
~503,093 Slave masters still, and that isn't one slave per owner

>>718936538
We have the same problem here in Mexico.

>>718936148

but that's the definition of losing a war you raging autist. Losing a battle or having some other military setback is not losing the war, that's losing a battle or suffering some other military setback. Losing the war is losing the war. "Battle" and "war" mean different things for a reason.