Last thread 404'd Minimum wage debate continue

i'm not sure it's worth debating anymore, people just think you can hand out wage increases and suddenly fix everything. If that were the case we could just raise the minimum wage to $100 an hour and live in a paradise.

>>558954449
poor spic and nigger everywhere in america

>>558954717

I like to hear everybody's thoughts on it. I agree with what you're saying.

I personally am in the camp of abolishing it completely.

>im a white kid from a middle class family that hasn't had to struggle for anything. I'm afraid that other people are coming to take that away from me

This has to be bait. Have any of you retards opened a history book? Back before laws and regulations for labor, you had big monopolies, unsafe working conditions, unsafe labor, rampant overinflation, and the worst depression ever. You dumb fucks look down on the poor and say "fuck them" as if you're actually aligning yourself with the rich. Like they give a shit about you. You're just next. If they could have 99% of the money and fuck everyone else, they would. Free market is the dumbest thing ever.

>>558956072

Well if you want to talk backgrounds. I'm half white, half Native American. I grew up in 2 foster homes for a good chunk of my life, the other part was living with my grandma on welfare.

I'm now 26, a Business Economics and Law major and I am going into Law School next year.

I'll concede to your point with respect to working conditions. However in my opinion that was more a product of the time you speak of.

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>>558956072

I disgree with the "free market being the dumbest thing ever". Without, what incentive is there for people to do anything? Do you not agree that if a person puts a lot of hard work into their business, education that they should reap the benefits of it?

>>558957402
Pretty sad that your only motivation would be money.

>>558956927
Yeah, because if you look in other countries, you have totally safe working conditions now. Because it's now a better time. Right? Can't possibly find a place where a huge corrupt corporation causes thousands of deaths and doesn't give a shit, right? That wouldn't happen now, right?

Also
>native american
Good job being lucky on that one. If you were basically anything else, you'd be fucked. There isn't even a guarantee you'll be able to land a job, but the school is a slam dunk if you're NA.

>>558957402
Because people still have to work. If not for the tax loopholes they all get, where do you think they'd take that extra money out if they could? Fuck, Walmart had employees ask for donations. They set up a donation request from customers to give to their employees. Now look at how much money they made. If you were in charge of a country, would you give a shit about how much hard work someone was putting into their business if it was completely destroying your country and people?

>>558957664
Because the minimum isn't what it used to be. Minimum back then still meant livable. Minimum now means homelessness. Did the minimum for any of the things you listed change? Does minimum education now mean less than it did back then? No. So why should the minimum money become less?

>>558957786

You have to make a living. You can either ride the social safety net, or you can try and make something of yourself.

>>558957402
$11 an hour would obviously be great on a personal level, but can we get some hard science on what would happen if we raised it to $11 on a federal level?

>>558958234
Completely missed my point.
I meant that the desire to do a job should be because that job contributes something.
If all you need to do is 'make a living' then you would be the one 'riding the social safety net'

Just goes to show how people like you don't even think.

>Yeah, because if you look in other countries, you have totally safe working conditions now. Because it's now >a better time. Right? Can't possibly find a place where a huge corrupt corporation causes thousands of >deaths and doesn't give a shit, right? That wouldn't happen now, right?

The laws in other Country's vary. Keep in mind, while the conditions with sweat shops, factories may be terrible in some countries (and its changing believe me). Those people would have no jobs at all. The very fact that these corporations go into these countries with lower taxes/wages gives the people an ability to earn more then they would elsewhere in their home country.

>Also
>native american
>Good job being lucky on that one. If you were basically anything else, you'd be fucked. There isn't even a >guarantee you'll be able to land a job, but the school is a slam dunk if you're NA.

Meh. I've had a 3.6 and a 3.8 GPA in the last 2 years of Business. I haven't taken advantage of my status, however I do know a bunch that have.

>>558959019
Less people would have minimum wage jobs. Unemployment would increase. People would still bitch $11 isnt enough because people that earn minimum wage are too stupid to know how to handle money. Thats why they have a job making minimum wage.

>all these liberals thinking increasing it to $10293029320 will help the economy

kek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siW0YAAfX6I

>>558957664
>>558958141
So long as you have an opportunity to move up in your career, the minimum wage is fine. Get a roommate or something for the first few years if needed, and then you'll be fine when you move up from the minimum. If you work your ass off and get a promotion, or get a second job and work more hours, work overtime, you'll be making plenty enough to live. If you really want to get out of the hellhole and you work like it, you'll get out.

>>558959449
3.6-3.8 GPA in business. Wow you've accomplished so much. King of the turds. Let me go look at my engineering degree.

>>558954449
If you want the minimum wage to raise higher, just simply don't get a job as employers will raise the salary to get employees needed. But since no one is willing to go without a job for +1 years and Mexicans coming from the border wants jobs you're shit out of luck. Also raising the minimum wage is going to raise inflation, no wonder you get paid minimum wage you never passed high school economics.

>>558957664
>minimum skills

lets see a lawyer wash dishes for the sunday morning rush at an all you can eat buffet by himself

>minimum education

even though i am a mechanic by trade, and even a co worker of mine speaks 3 fluent languages

>minimum contribution to the workplace

at my job, the entire kitchen counts on me to do it. if i quit doing my job one day, the entire restaurant takes a gigantic loss.

Most of the people i work with at my shitty job are highly educated people fallen on hard times. i hope one day whoever made this hateful propaganda finds themselves in their situation, it can happen to anyone.

>>558954449
The free market guys are wrong, one should have everything while stand on top of the other guy

>>558960043
No that is the definition of the free market

>Because people still have to work. If not for the tax loopholes they all get, where do you >think they'd take that extra money out if they could? Fuck, Walmart had employees ask for >donations. They set up a donation request from customers to give to their employees. Now >look at how much money they made. If you were in charge of a country, would you give a shit about how much hard work someone was putting into their business if it was completely >destroying your country and people?

Wal-mart is an easy target. Yea they've done some shady things, there's no denying that however, that doesn't speak for companies in General.


>Because the minimum isn't what it used to be. Minimum back then still meant livable. >Minimum now means homelessness. Did the minimum for any of the things you listed >change? Does minimum education now mean less than it did back then? No. So why should >the minimum money become less?

I don't think there should be one one the first place. You basically alienate a portion of the workforce by putting one in

>>558954691
Except that minimum wage has been rising to keep up with inflation. Your image depicts it as staying the same.

Furthermore, nobody did or can guarantee you a nice living or even a living at all.

Stop being an entitle little shit and fuck off.

>>558959757

Engineering hating on Business. No way.

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Just like to say that i'm irish and unemployed now for 2 years, 20 years old. Living in a council house with girlfriend and both not working while on jobseekers benefit so no sneaky dosh to spend.
200 a week; 34 rent, electricity comes to in or around 100-150 every 2 months. Its very doable.
Use to have 2 jobs stacking shelves and shit, the usual shitty jobs. Ended up being 30-50 euro extra every week. 3 days a week, my first job eventually turned so bad they only gave me one day a week. There is fuck and all work over here. Where do I go to make money in this world? I'd really like to know where all the money is at. Also any advice for extra work would be nice if any half-jew fucks out there know any methods.
Happy to answer any questions also.

Big business is the new big government. Nothing but a bunch of self interested cheapskates creating a huge bureaucracy to make money off wasting your time. Go call and try and cancel a service

I'm fine with the abolishment of the minimum wage, provided a rather major change in our society.

Fair equitable housing, health care, education, food, clothing, and mental health care in safe environments.

I'm not saying it has to be 'the best'. Government crappy cheese, bread and water in a properly maintained 1 room efficiency (for single people, as example). A bare-bones roof over the head and an 1800 calorie a day diet from a soup kitchen is fine.

Otherwise, that minimum wage needs to be in line with that for the given area, given 45 hours of work a week.

Plain and simple, we are wealthy as fuck. We should not have a single citizen starve, go without a roof, without healthcare, without mental healthcare.

This just makes logical sense. Expand the pool of possible effective labor to it's maximum. Remove the entire option of illegal immigration (no jobs, gotta employ US Citizens first).

>>558960940
Unemployed 2 years meaning 2 shitty jobs during, so technically not unemployed.. Dun goofed but fuck it. inb4 someone points that shit out.

>>558959526
Dumbest statement ever. Poverty is self perpetuating. Look at things like a vehicle for work, and things for your residence. Without money, what kind of vehicle can you get? What kind of appliances can you get? What kind of clothes and other things can you get? Things that do not last. Things that break easily. Things that malfunction and need repair or replacement. If you have the ability to spend more money on these, it makes sense to. They last longer, and you're spending less in the long run because you don't need to replace these things. Less money often means living in higher crime areas as well. This can cost more money. Dumbest statement ever.

>>558959708
HAHAHA "get a promotion" oh god you kids think that everyone gets to be middle management. Oh god.

>>558959934
Not the least bit true about inflation.

>>558959609
Also retarded. The problem lies in the entitlement of the upper upper class, and the enormous money gap. Look it up. Look up what happens when there is a huge gap throughout history.

>>558960416
Look at how some companies treat customers. What makes you think they treat workers any better? I've had three different jobs in office buildings. Every single one of them used illegal labor for janitorial services. It's not isolated. It's everywhere. If they can save money by cutting it from employees, they will. You think these people have background checks? Ever work in a place where they passed someone on a background check and it came back to bite them? I did. Guy was a convicted felon, and they didn't bother with a background check. He fought with another employee and beat him half to death in the parking lot. There is nothing safe about their methods for cutting costs, and it's always at the expense of the employees.

>>558959072

>Completely missed my point.
>I meant that the desire to do a job should be because that job contributes something.
>If all you need to do is 'make a living' then you would be the one 'riding the social safety net'

>Just goes to show how people like you don't even think.

I apologize i didn't understand what you were getting at.

All jobs contribute something, somebody has to bake the bread, pave the road, manage people's money ect. Thats societal contract we all abide by.

Welfare isn't exactly a stellar way of providing a living. I think people in general strive for more.

People like to complain about minimum wage, government intervention and government regulation and etc, but I like to know that I can go to my neighborhood grocery store and be reasonably assured that through such regulation, I can but pretty much any edible product from the store and not have to worry about dying from it being tainted and grossly mishandled in some way to the point where it becomes an immediate danger to my health. You take the bad with the good, if you really hate government regulation so much, go move to Somalia and see how that works out for you in real life.

>>558959950
>wash dishes quickly instead of loafing around
Literally anyone with two hands can do that. You are not special.

>mechanic
So what? Even monkeys can turn wrenches. You think you're so fucking valuable meanwhile you have no fucking idea what it takes to design and build the machines you merely fix after they break down.

>the entire kitchen is counting on me!
>if I quit then the whole thing sinks
HA HA HA! Get over yourself. They can replace you in an instant with any random bum off the street.

You're so fucking conceited and you demand more money for nothing. Typical retarded lower class bullshit.

Here's the secret: you're not lower class because you're inherently inferior or because The Man is keeping you down. You're lower class because your arrogance, laziness, and unjustified sense of entitlement prevent you from bettering yourself.

I worked and payed my own way through college. I studied for exams, wrote papers all night, did math problems 'till my eyes burned and I graduated after eight years. What's keeping you back?

i dont understand, if people dont like being payed minimum wage why dont they go and get a skill that people are willing to pay more for?

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>my country does not have a minimum wage
feels good man

>>558960657
Except I also have a business degree and saw how it was worthless and did nothing for me.

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>>558955051
"but guys, raising the minimum wage never leads to price increases!"

>>558960940
A highly regulated country with very few jobs? Say it aint so. Maybe you should vote for more regulations and more job killing bills. That will fix it.

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>>558961775
> Get the skill

From where? The magical skill tree? With the magical USB sticks you plug into your fucking rectum and download into your brain like in the avatar movie or whatever?

Costs money to go to school. Costs money to live while going to school.

>>558961867
maybe you should try raising the amount of pixels in your shit can picture

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>>558962063
>Costs money to go to school. Costs money to live while going to school.
America

>>558961867
There is weak correlation there when compared with the other map. Really weak.

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>>558957664
You goin full retard mang, never go full retard.

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>>558961341
Try it, or you can just try getting a second/third job or working overtime if not.
Yeah it's not fucking easy trying not to be poor. Deal with it.

>>558961341
>
Also retarded. The problem lies in the entitlement of the upper upper class, and the enormous money gap. Look it up. Look up what happens when there is a huge gap throughout history.


M-muh 1%!!!111 waaahhhhhhhh

When there were free markets and less (in some cases none) wealth gap.

Also what is the objective wrong with wealth inequality? What are you going to do faggot?

>>558962206
I'm in agreement with you on that one.

I'm not saying college should be free. Tech/trade school? A 2-year program?
Yeah, you should be able to slot in and 'pay' for it with 2 years in field paying your goddamn taxes.

>>558961830

You do not represent a significant sample size, but in all honesty I have lots of respect for engineers.

I'm a Ph.D student in economics. the minimum wage is not a specialty of mine but I have written papers on it. It's as trade off. It has some depressing effects on poverty but also some accelerating affects on crime and unemployment. macro-level changes in PPP or living standards are ambiguous. It's clear-cut if the minimum wage is an economic positive or negative.

the debate we're having essentially comes down to principles: Is it ethical to have a minimum wage? What sort of society do we want to construct, what sort of civil society do we want to be a part of? These are not easily answered questions but it is important to talk about the,.

LIBTARDS

B
T
F
O

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWF1ffs1M4k

>>558959950
The lawyer could wash dishes. He probably washes dishes at his own house. Lets see you do a lawyers job. Lets see you do a engineers job. Lets see you do an accountants job. Every single of them could do yours. Minimum wage jobs are low/no skill jobs which means almost anyone can do them. The more people that are competing for the job, the lower the company can pay. People who work in fast food in North Dakota are making 17-20$ an hour/ You know why? Because up there the oil fields are hiring most of the dumb skilled wrench turners. This lead to a drop in the number of people applying for fast food work. So fast food joints had to raise the pay to compensate.

Free market, how does it work.

>>558962063
>Costs money to go to school

i literally decided one day that i wanted to work with computers so i pirated a bunch of books about it and used ciscos FREE simulator to learn how to do cisco routing, then spent less than 300 dollars to get my CCNA cert with the knowledge i had gotten from those books and simulator. i was hired within 3 months of getting my cert at net app starting at 60k a year with benefits and they literally pay me to continue getting certs.

o ya i also used youtube to study

>>558956927
i hope that you're going to a T14, because if not, enjoy not being able to get a decent JD-required job when you graduate.

>>558962803
Liberals want to take away my ability to work than less the minimum wage

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>>558962174

>>558960445
False, its been lowering. If we went with the actual minimum wage our parents had it would be 9 dollars now.

Source, every news channel this past year.

>>558954449
If you dont have a minimum wage the "hand of the free market" is going to fuck everyone but the big coorporations

>>558962840
That's all well and good, but how the hell did you walk in and get certification off of "I watched youtube videos and pirated books

>actually showed them your skill

Why doesn't everything work that way goddamn it.

>>558963014
>corporations
>Muh corporations

>2014
>not knowing governments make corporations

>>558963014

That must be why countries with no minimum wage, but strong unions, are ruled by the big corpor... o wait they're totally not.

>>558962752
>Tips fedora

My sisters husband has a business degree. He is now a store manager for a Walmart store in Ca. He is in charge of 500+ people and makes about 150k a year and then gets bonuses. So a business degree isn't that bad. ITs not like a political science or liberal arts degree.

We need to abolish the minimum wage. There is only one argument that matters–the moral argument. Does the minimum wage make the world a better place, especially for the poorest workers and their families?

Those Americans with the least education and lowest skill levels have struggled tremendously over the last few decades. They find themselves in competition with machines and foreign workers. Their job opportunities have shrunk. Their standard of living is mediocre at best.

The minimum wage is the wrong way to help these workers. It attacks the effects of economic change rather than the underlying causes.

You don’t need a special theory of the labor market or a degree in economics to understand that making workers artificially more expensive makes it harder for them to find work.

Those who support the minimum wage will tell you the MW gives needed bargaining power to low wage workers. Yet it helps very few people directly.

95% of those paid by the hour earn more than the minimum wage.

That includes my cleaning lady who earns more than double the minimum wage. Surely she should have little bargaining power. Her English is imperfect. No union protects her. Yet I pay her much more than the legal minimum. I like to think it’s because I’m nice. But I know better. If I don’t pay her around $20 an hour, she won’t show up. She has too many alternatives.

Alternatives force employers to treat their employees well.

>>558962840
I did much the same in the late 90s early 2000s.

MCSE+I, couple others. Was in the 30k range myself at the time.

Not everyone learns that way, even though it's a lot less expensive than people think it is.

>>558963353
For most of us, legislation isn’t necessary.

But the minimum wage does boost the salaries of those at the bottom especially young workers. About 1.7 million workers between the ages of 16-24–about half of all minimum wage workers–get a raise because of the minimum wage. And others with wages just above them also get a boost.

But those artificially higher wages discourage employers from hiring other low-skilled and inexperienced workers. This is particularly tragic when the unemployment rate among young workers today is over 16% and over 29% for young African-Americans.

Many who support the minimum wage argue that somehow, you can raise wages artificially and there will be no effect on employment. But who believes that employers don’t respond to higher wages? That’s why employers replace workers with machines. That’s why they send jobs overseas That’s why manufacturing employment is falling. Why would artificially increasing the wage of low-skilled workers have no effect?

Consider my favorite exemption to the minimum wage–the internship. You’re allowed to pay less than the minimum as long as it’s zero.

Do you think making internships illegal would increase the number of opportunities for young people to get experience? Do you think forcing employers to pay the minimum instead of zero would help young people?

Others justify the minimum wage saying the employment effects are small. Small? When you lose your job or can’t find one, the effect isn’t small. It’s 100%.

So it’s nice to give 1.7 million young workers a raise. But what about the 3.4 million unemployed young workers as of last month, workers actively looking for work who can’t find it? Is it worth it? Is it worth helping those 1.7 million people if it means making it harder for twice as many people to find any kind of job? That’s over 3 million people earning zero. I reject making that tradeoff. It’s a bad bargain.

>>558963119
o i forgot to mention it only took me 3 months to do all that but thats mostly because i read slow

Corporations are people and can contribute unlimited funds to political campaigns here in America. People deserve to be paid less than minimum wage in order for economic activity to increahahahaahahaha

>>558963353
Actually there is another argument, its called the 1850s and crony capitalism.

>>558961341

>Look at how some companies treat customers. What makes you think they treat workers any >better? I've had three different jobs in office buildings. Every single one of them used illegal >labor for janitorial services. It's not isolated. It's everywhere. If they can save money by >cutting it from employees, they will. You think these people have background checks? Ever >work in a place where they passed someone on a background check and it came back to bite >them? I did. Guy was a convicted felon, and they didn't bother with a background check. He >fought with another employee and beat him half to death in the parking lot. There is nothing >safe about their methods for cutting costs, and it's always at the expense of the employees.

Who's going to work the bottom of the barrel jobs? You have immigrants that have little education (im assuming here), or work skills and you have felons that basically will get rejected from any job they apply to.

Yea part of it might be cost cutting but it also just might be the only people they can find that can do the job.

>>558963119
CCNA has a test you take to get certified.

>>558963507
The irony of the minimum wage is that it reduces the bargaining power of workers and makes them easier to exploit. It increases the number of workers trying to find work while reducing the number of jobs available. That encourages low-skilled workers to stay in lousy jobs where employers treat them badly. If they quit, they know the odds of finding another job is very small.

The best argument for the minimum wage is that our school system is a failure. So we have to do something to help people who have been abused and betrayed by the system. But the minimum wage is the wrong way to fix this failure. It’s just an additional barrier to the least skilled workers of America making it harder for them to begin their careers. Do we really want to make it harder for the least-skilled with the fewest connections, the ones who desperately need that first job to start their career? I beg you to consider that the best intentions don’t always lead to good results. Abolish the minimum wage and let young people and the least skilled have a better chance of getting the experience they need to thrive and prosper.

>>558963529
We have a winner

But obviously it won't work if everyone does this. It seems like someone always has to get fucked, there's no way for us all to be successful. And I'm fine with it so long as the ones who work the least are the ones getting fucked the hardest by it.

Let me get this straight. 71% of the US economy is based on consumer spending, and you want to pay them less, therefore giving them less money to spend, shrinking the economy. For sure.

>>558963653
I don't disagree.

My thought was trade school after high school is 'free'. As in, you get a good, marketable skill, on the dime of the companies that employ in it, and you work that field for 2 years after getting out.

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>>558963538
it works trust me 100%

government intervention is infallible

>>558963653
In September of 2011, the governor of American Samoa traveled 7000 miles to testify for 5 minutes before Congress. He begged Congress to stop increasing the minimum wage in American Samoa–a process that had begun in 2007 and was scheduled to increase until the minimum wage in American Samoa reached the US minimum of $7.25. In 2009, employment on American Samoa fell 19%. That’s because employment in the tuna industry–1/3 of total employment on the island–had fallen 55%. The governor blamed that collapse on the minimum wage. Here’s a quote from the governor’s testimony:

We are watching our economy burn down. We know what to do to stop it. We need to bring the aggressive wage costs decreed by the Federal Government under control.

Our job market is being torched. Our businesses are being depressed. Our hope for growth has been driven away…Our people live in the middle of the South Pacific Ocean, with no place to seek refuge in any economy other than our own.

Our question is this: How much does our government expect us to suffer?

I have the same question for those who support the minimum wage here in the United States. How much do you expect the least skilled among us to suffer?

Congress stopped increasing the minimum wage in American Samoa. They should have the same compassion for workers in the United States and abolish the minimum wage here.

Right now, there are people within a few blocks of where I am standing who cannot find work, simply because their skills are not worth $7.25 an hour. Why would you condemn those men and women to a wage of zero? Why would you cut off the bottom of the economic ladder and deprive a human being the chance to begin a life of honest work?

>>558964219
There are desperate people among us, people who have nowhere to turn, whose job prospects are poor. Why make their lives worse? It’s not just about the money. It’s about giving people a chance to find meaning and satisfaction from standing on their own two feet. Give the least skilled among us the chance they deserve. Abolish the minimum wage.

Two caveats: I argued that the minimum wage helps 1.7 million workers 16-24 years old get some kind of raise above what they otherwise would get without the minimum wage. But the cost is that it makes it harder for the 3.4 million young workers to find work. This was an elegant but inaccurate rhetorical flourish. Elegant, because 3.4 million (the number of unemployed 16-24 year olds in February of 2013, the most recent data) is exactly double the number of minimum wage workers 16-24 in 2012, the most recent data for minimum wage workers.

But it is not accurate. Just about 1/3 of all workers who earn less than the minimum are in food service. So their salaries are less than the minimum but they get tips which puts many of them above the minimum and many of those are 16-24. So the minimum wage probably helps a lot fewer than 1.7 million workers. But not all of the 3.4 million unemployed are hurt by the minimum wage. Many of them have enough skill and education to make much more than $7.25 and they are unemployed for all kinds of reasons unrelated to the minimum. In 2012, for example, 78% of teenagers (16-19 year olds) earned more than the minimum. More on these issues in another post coming soon.

>>558963618
he has a point though kinda, the CCNA if you take it all at one time usually has more simulation questions in it than if you were to take the 2 parter one. either way though ive never understood why more people dont go into computers, you literally only need a 200 dollar PC, youtube, the pirate bay, and the free shit out there to learn it

>>558964374
===================================
There is debate stirring about a possible minimum wage increase.
Obama and the Democrats in DC are advocating a proposal to raise the minimum wage from $7.25 per hour to $10.10 per hour.
This would actually be an increase in the minimum wage of 39%, which is extraordinarily high, especially given the already high unemployment rate, particularly among less skilled workers.
Overall, the American people are in a state of naivety about the minimum wage, thinking there is such a thing as a free lunch. The majority of Americans, who support not only a minimum wage, but also an increase in the minimum wage, do not understand that there will be negative consequences, or they don’t think they will be affected.

>>558964558

Some Republicans will speak out against raising the minimum wage. You will find fewer who will advocate an elimination of minimum wage laws. We also have to remember that the last time minimum wage legislation was enacted to raise the amount, it was under George W. Bush.
Neither side is consistent, with the occasional exceptions. If the Republicans say that raising the minimum wage will cause higher unemployment, then why wouldn’t they advocate getting rid of it? There are a few who do say that, but not nearly enough.
And if the Democrats think that raising the minimum wage is great and virtually cost free, then why not raise it to $15 per hour or $50 per hour?
The minimum wage simply prevents employment between consenting parties. It doesn’t mandate that someone be hired or that someone can’t be fired. It just means that some transactions won’t take place that otherwise would have.
If someone wants to pay another person $6 per hour to do some manual labor and the other person is willing to do the job at that price, then the government is telling them they are not allowed to enter into such an agreement. If the person willing to pay $6 is not willing to pay $7.25 (maybe soon to be higher), then the transaction will never take place.

>>558963319

Business is a good degree. Its not god tier by any means but considering that most of us will end up working for a corporation in some capacity, it provides a lot of education and skills for the working world.

>>558961727
>on /b/
>college graduate
pick one faggot

>>558964723

Like so many laws, it hurts the people most who it is purported to help. In this case, it tends to be younger people and those with fewer skills. These are the people most likely to lose a job or have more difficulty in finding one.
Ironically, it is legal to hire an unpaid intern in many circumstances. The intern would be willing to work for no pay just to gain experience. But if the company offered to pay the intern $5 an hour, then the transaction all of a sudden becomes illegal.
There was a CBO report just released saying that raising the minimum wage would lead to the loss of half a million jobs by late 2016. But the report also said that it would lift 900,000 people out of poverty, meaning it would push them above the designated poverty line.
Of course, these numbers are meaningless. The CBO has no idea what's going to happen. They can plug their numbers into graphs, charts, and various computer-modeling programs, but it can’t actually tell you how humans will react.
A 39% increase in the minimum wage could easily lead to greater poverty. If there are that many more people unable to find work, we really have no idea how bad the effects could be.
The estimate of 500,000 lost jobs could easily end up much higher than that, too.
Think of a small business with about 20 employees. Half of the workers are making around the minimum wage and the other half are making more, maybe even significantly more.

>>558963618
you don't need to qualify for the test in the first place?

I'm in the middle of studying for the CPA exams and they require you to have your bachelor before you can even sit for it

>>558964874

If the employer simply can’t make a big enough profit paying an extra $2.85 per hour per worker, then the employer might just shut his doors for business. The extra expense might be around $5,000 per month. And if any of the other workers were making around $10 per hour, how would they feel making the same amount as the other people who have less experience or fewer skills?
If the employer shuts down his business, then it would mean all 20 people would be out of a job, not just the minimum wage workers.
It's also important to point out that there are a lot of other hidden effects from minimum wage laws. An increase in the minimum wage may not lead to some people being fired, but it could lead to jobs not being filled or jobs never being created in the first place.
The bottom line is that minimum wage laws are bad economic policy. It will cause higher unemployment, assuming that the mandated wage is not lower than what workers would be paid anyway. It will also cause lower overall productivity and it distorts market activity.
The politicians who push for a higher minimum wage are playing on the economic ignorance of the voting population. Meanwhile, it is only hurting the people it's supposed to help.
The minimum wage should be abolished and people should be allowed to freely associate.

>>558964492
Because not everyone is wired that way. I'm a electrical engineer. I'm pretty good at math. But not everyone out there has the skills to be good at math. Problem is, to exist in middle class, you need to be more tech smart than the average person. Middle class jobs that don't require tech skills are getting less and less.

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>>558964558

No way they are thinking about raising it that much. That is brutal.

Well prepare for a storm of foreign (legal ones) workers, and outsourcing.

>>558965449
>Middle class jobs that don't require tech skills are getting less and less.
How is this bad? Its forcing us to evolve.

>>558965127
I don't think so. Their is no CCNA degree so Im not sure how they could require an education. I could google search it but I don't feel like it.

>>558965531
>Let's give the employer thousands of more dollars in expenses
>Let's make it illegal for anyone to negotiate a contract mutually that pays under the so called limit
>Government intervention in the economy is infallible
>Let's make the employer pay more than the worker produces

lel

>>558965449
no people can learn what ever the fuck they want to, the problem is most people are just lazy or give up when things get slightly difficult. if you are not willing to put in the work to make yourself better then you deserve the bare minimum

Welp, here's my 2 cents. I could go on about how the minimum rage will drive up prices, create unemployment, and reduce customer service standards.

I could also go on about how someone with minimal skills deserves minimum pay. More work, more *marketable* skills, more *marketable* education, more pay. Simple.

But I won't go on about those things, because the only thing that really matters is the concept of freedom. That is what I will go on about.

The government does not have the right to dictate to a business how it pays their employees. A business ought to be free to choose how it pays its employees, who it employs, and how it treats them. No one has a right to a job, and no one has a right to a good-paying job. If you want that "right," then get marketable skills anyway you can.

Freedom works both ways. We cannot have a government protecting a certain group (i.e. today's workforce) at the expense of another group (i.e. businesses). If a business has a right to pay you a piss-poor salary, then you have the right to go work somewhere else. That's how it should be, but that's not how it is today. More and more workers are demanding more money and higher wages for the same amount of work.

You don't have a right to shop anywhere in this country. If you don't like how a business operates, either from a consumer's perspective or a employee's perspective, then go somewhere else. If a company continues to pay workers poorly, another company will come along promising better pay and better benefits. In other words, we have to let the free market regulate itself.

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>>558965449

You would not believe the demand for IT. It's insane. We are probably employing a city in India at this point.

Its not even the wage either, its the fact that we don't have enough people here to fit the demand.

>All these retards thinking raising the minimum wage will increase unemployment

The lower classes (those living on minimum wage) are the best circulators of wealth in our economy. The vast majority of the money they make, they spend on food, rent, utilities, medical bills - they put it back into the economy, as opposed to the upper classes, who just sit on their wealth and pile more on, letting proportionately very little back into the economy. The economy runs on people spending money, so doesn't it make sense to close tax loopholes exploited by groups that just stockpile their cash, and increase wages for those who are guaranteed to use it and create more jobs in the process?

>>558965660
Lets look at it from a what if situation.

What if intead of having to be tech smart, you had to be artistic. I am not creative at all. I cannot draw worth shit. If I had to earn my living doing that, I would be screwed. The solution isn't take force a company to pay me more, thats for sure.

>>558966131
>This retard thinks that making more unemployed low skill workers helps the economy

Do you have a fucking dense skull? Making it impossible for low skill workers to get jobs will make the economy become worse than it already is.

Also

>that failed multiplier theory

Krugman pls go

Also when can the state be allowed to tell me how much I can work for? That's bullshit if i've ever seen it

Fixing the issue with minimum wage jobs is simple... QUIT, and go to a better job. If the workforce wasn't a bunch of paranoid pansies there would be no poorly paid jobs because no one would do them... too bad the U.S. doesn't have any borders and the government and major corporations are welcoming illegal immigrants with open crotches.

>>558963353
So get rid of the minimum wage and expect rich people to be nice to poor people, no ones going to allow that because the majority of people do not wish to be taken advantage of. If that was to happen shit will get done quicker resulting in no jobs to be done eventually. The construction industry would be fucking disastrous even more so then it is now. people would be more inclined to steal shit generally during work. The more educated than the ones without qualifications degrees etc would eventually get shitter pay than they do now.

>>558966438
How are you making more unemployed? My point was that by paying the low-end wage earners more per hour, they pump more cash into the economy, which in turn generates more jobs.

>>558966169
But its not, they are not asking something that only some people can do. Anyone can learn tech stuff, it may take others more time but anyone can, provided they have a functioning brain.

>>558966498
>Workers
>getting taken advantage of

Take your paranoid conspiracies and jealousness of the rich out into the rubbish you twat.

The "business guy taken advantage of people" thing only make sense if there is one guy, but there are many business owners who compete for workers you idiot, if one pays jack shit the worker is going to go to the other employer

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>>558966621
>limiting jobs
>not allowing the already 3.4 million youths unemployed to get jobs

You make it illegal for me or anyone else to make a contact to be paid under the minimum wage, and thus you very much constrict the amount of jobs.

I don't think you understand that with the massive taxes and regulations on businesses and the very expensive licenses it is very costly and hiring people at a high value (sometimes more value than they produce) makes the employer lay off people so the company stays afloat.

>>558966035
So when you guys get the tech over there when is there going to be this magical utopia where people can live freely without money, because money cannot work with this much people and growing. Or are we going to have to gas some people every 200 years? The Money system is failing and only creating lazy fuckers, slave fuckers and always the ever so smart rich fuckers

>>558967061
>has nice fleece
>has iphone
>clean
>probably has nice shoes
>has a place to live

Yeah I'm sure he is as bad off as his African counterparts

captcha: humbova jealous

Lololol my mom survived the minimum wage and were rich because we invested our money not buy shit we dont need

Sure, raise the minimum wage to 11. But only if we compensate by eliminating welfare, obamacare, and all the other free shit the lazy minimum get for free.

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>>558954449
It's not even a debate. This argument is as old as money it's self.
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-BGi4NIFww

>>558954691
This problem is caused by inflation, and inflation is caused by making more money. It will only get worse if you higher the minimum wage.
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ4TTNeSUdQ

>>558955956
With 15$ everybody goes hungry.

>>558966834
People don't understand the value of labor. A business man wants to make money. So he needs to hire people to make him money. But he also has to profit on their labor or else he losses money.
So lets say he hires a man to work for him that will allow him to earn 20k more a year. Well he can only afford to pay that person at most, 20k a year. Realisticly he is going to pay him about 10-15k a year, giving him a bit of profit, and a safety net.

But lets say, that worker is so good, he makes that employeer 50k a year instead of the planned 20. That employee has the power to negotiate a higher pay. If the employeer doesn't want to pay it, fine. The employee can go to another company which would gladly hire him since he can make 50k a year for them. This gap would allow employeer B to pay the person more.

Problem with increasing minimum wage is you can increase the cost of labor over the value of labor. If that concept gets lost on you, then you a idiot.

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>>558966498

So get rid of the minimum wage and expect rich people to be nice to poor people, no ones going to allow that because the majority of people do not wish to be taken advantage of. If that was to happen shit will get done quicker resulting in no jobs to be done eventually. The construction industry would be fucking disastrous even more so then it is now. people would be more inclined to steal shit generally during work. The more educated than the ones without qualifications degrees etc would eventually get shitter pay than they do now.

Its not about being nice. The Japanese said that "Business is war". You either compete or you go out of business.

If a corporation wants to stay in business it has to pay a wage that people are willing to work for. There is no stopping a person from going somewhere else.

Disagree on the on the degree's part. The whole point of getting a degree is to put your self in a selective pool of people, your qualifications are greater and thus your skills are more sought after.

>>558967197
>Limiting jobs
I don't think you understand, friend. Companies in America are doing incredibly well right now - Particularly their executives. They're not in a position where they're barely scraping by. If companies cut what they paid their executives in half, for example (Including things like stock options, pensions, and other perks, not just salary), they'd have more than enough money to pay for minimum wage increases AND avoid layoffs of their workers AND hire more people to meet the increased demand for goods that a lower class with more spending power would create AND the executives would still be able to lead obscenely wealthy lifestyles.

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As a libertarian and as a small business owner this may sound incredibly counter to my philosophy but in the current climate;

Here's the thing, minimum wage is a good thing for the people and ideally it should be pegged to inflation,

It seems to work in plenty of strong economies, so why not here?
The workers are happier and thus they're likely to be more productive.
It also honestly doesn't hinder business or jack up prices, no matter how much the right protest or yell bloody socialist.

>>558962814
EXCUSE me, did you just try to bring facts and logic into this? Who the FUCK do you think you are? You can just take your conservitard ass, fuck it with a rolled up constitution, and get the FUCK off my /b/.

>>558967764
While Friedman was a petty Keynesian he had a lot of points I agree with.

Also
>Never seeing his freedom to choose series

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3N2sNnGwa4&list=PL12A7B1CFC1FEF8DA

A must for you anon

>>558967208

I'm incredibly confused by your post

>>558968201
It's hilarious to see CEOs raking it in, records high revenue and still companies find it necessary to line shareholders pockets by slashing thousands of jobs.

I'm not against rich people, but this specific kind of behavior is fucking pathetic. How many yachts can one buy?

Why not increase minimum wage. i mean minimum wage has stayed the same while ceo etc get increased wages. minimum wage was supposed to be 20.00 now.

>>558968059
There is no such thing as a society of winners, society will always have winners and losers. By punishing the winners you're only making it worse for everyone.

>>558968227
>>558968309
Mah niggas

England can do it.

>>558966834
>>Failed to read everything else after
lol at "one guy"
You dont seem to realize how any people there is on this earth. Somewhere else third worlders are moving up setting up there own shit and immigrating they would be use to that sort of pay if not delighted to be getting more and in such a great and "famous" [insert country here].

>>558968746
>> line shareholders pockets by slashing thousands of jobs.

Good, as a investor, I demand the companies I invest in remain profitable

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>>558968201

Alright and for the guys that busted there ass in school, work, never took a day off, worked 16 hour days for years to get to those high up positions....youre going to tell them they need to take a paycut for people that have no education, skills, because its not fair?

>>558969168
Yes.

>>558968929
Sure raise the minimum wage to 20.00$, just create the money! Nothing bad will happen! Why can't you understand that creating money just creates inflation..

>>558968935

sorry the top paragraph i was quoting

>>558968227
>You can lie on the internet

k

>>558968201
I don't think you understand how companies work m8.

Right now companies are artificially held up by the government like GM (Government Motors) and other 'too big to fail' companies because the government is becoming more socialist and wants a planned economy.

Forcing every single company to pay (including small businesses) to pay a massive amount of money to people whom their value is less?

Those executives are highly skilled and specialize, why should they get paid more? Because it's unfair anon? Welcome to life! and life outside the womb!

Those people worked 18 hour days and did very well in school to run those positions. The company is massive and so the little profit they make after each purchase accumulates into their paychecks for themselves.

Don't be a jealous coward, there are plenty of avenues for the minimum wage worker, but their too lazy to do anything.

>>558963774

someone does not always have to be fucked as long as everyone is playing by the rules and not fucking someone else over for their own gain.

>>558962829
Washing dishes at home is a far cry from washing dishes in a fast paced, high volume restaurant during peak times. Just saying.

>>558969168
Really? are democrats helping the poor by making their cost of living go up?

>>558969560
>>You can lie on the internet
>everyone on 4chan is a neckbeard virgin basement dwelling troll
>massive projections
Yer a funny one.

>>558968005
>muh value of laboor!!! marx said it must be truee!!!

Take your socialist dribble elsewhere fucking pinko

>>558969168
Yes. They have a duty to those they employ to pay them a livable wage.

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>>558969294

Alright. Then where is the incentive to work hard?

>>558969381
hiking minimum wage is not creating money.
And inflation of prices have not increased on bit over the last few decades of minimum wage bumps.

>>558969754
Never said that.

>projecting this much

>>558969381
England does it.

>>558969560
>Welcome to life!
Another way of saying "I have no argument!"

How much does one make on minimum wage, after taxes?

I really doubt its impossible to live off minimum wage if you know how to manage your money.

>>558969886
>>558969886
>Alright. Then where is the incentive to work hard?
You get more money.

>>558969972
>Ignores everything I have to say

Looks like I am here m8

>>558970108
So welfare gives an incentive to work

kekekek

>>558969145
There's no problem with investors making money, of course not.

But what the hell is the reasoning to cut 1000s of jobs, when there has been a record profit for the company?

Do you think the company will keep the revenue flowing at the same level when there's fewer people working? How is this kind of shark investing, not shortsighted?

I may be a fucking retard, but I don't see it.

>>558969857
If the wage wasn't livable then there would be more death. If we just gave everyone the best then there would no incentives to better themselves.

>>558969890
Yes it is. Do you actually believe that money just comes from Washington with no consequences?

>>558969972
And hows England's inflation doing huh?

So, according to >>558968227 the three person family poverty line is $10.00 per hour... But why do we want low-skilled dunces to reproduce? Shouldn't we discourage reproduction by keeping their wages low? Why would we want their shit in the gene pool?

>>558969965
So, what was the lie you were referring to?

>>558969381
its called increaseing minimum wage decreasing ceo/higher up money. They shouldn't be making that much money if the minimum wage was increasing along with ceo/higher up salary increase. Why do people go crazy increasing minimum wage and decreasing ceo money.

>>558969819
Whaaa? I'm against minimum wage. Then again I'm a skilled, high valued worker. Not a dish washer or fast food worker that can be replaced by someone with down sydrome.

>>558970679
>But why do we want low-skilled dunces to reproduce?
Who else would do their jobs?

>>558970603
heres an idea why not decrease ceo/higher up money increase minimum wage?

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>>558970108

Alright so we agree? I'm not sure what side you're on.

>>558970708
The amount of money a CEO makes is the wealth they created on their own so therefor it's THEIR money, and has nothing to do with the economy.

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>>558969819
So much anger in your posts; are you overweight and suffering from back problems, I bet you own a gun also on a sidenote your also a huge faggot who should use that gun on some unemployed and then an hero, just a suggestion

>>558967764
"The businessman, especially the smaller businessman, cannot afford to bring in these people at the higher wage."

Truly. Except this does not apply to all business owners. Large companies (Walmart) can certainly afford to pay more.

>>558970603
The money is already created, and flowing through the company chain. So what's the fucking problem?

Ever been to Singapore? Germany? Switzerland? Hong Kong?

They're running some of the richest economies in the world and they have strong minimum wage laws.

And fun fact, there was no rise in cost of living.

>>558970548
So me a company with record profits that lays off thousands. What happens is there are record profits for certain companies while others are loosing money. Those loosing money or with weak profits are the ones cutting jobs. But when you lump them all together you are making it seem like every company has record profits and every company is laying people off when that is completly not true.

>>558970826
The labor theory of value is absolute dribble and ignores everything about economics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyf2wBKQScw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zisxWMu34k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQj1qlsjVoM

>>558971001
Yes it does. MINIMUM WAGE HAS STAYED THE SAME AS INCREASE IN CEO/HIGHER UP. Minimum wage should have been increasing along with ceo/higher up money. But no they kept blocking increase in minimum wage job whiel a ceo goes hey guess waht gonna increase my pay for the 137146817246 time.

>>558970895
>Alright so we agree? I'm not sure what side you're on.

That you think in terms of sides is everything wrong with the system of debate everyone in the world uses.

Once you realise that, you'll feel like you've reached enlightenment.

>>558971071
>look mum! i am making ad hominems on 4chan!!

Kill yourself summerfag

>>558970679
Because all archivers come from money, right?
Jesus fucking christ, another shortsighted eugenicist.

>>558971159
You do know if there was no minimum wage we would go back to companies paying their workers shit money...

>>558969560
Accept it because that's the way it is is bullshit, circular logic.

If a company can't raise its wages across the board by 10%, the business is already failing. There is no excuse other than greed at the top end that a company can't pay more. Most employees get hired at less than accounting budgets for anyway.

Example:
A business needs to hire an employee. They budget for $17 an hour but list $12-14 an hour. In the interview the person doing the hiring tries to low ball the employee so budgets come out with excesses. The employee might get hired on at $13 but that extra $4 was already on the balance sheet and ends up becoming profits when all is said and done.

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>>558970859

I posted the tax statistics in the last thread.
>Top 40% of wage earners pay 106% of taxes (thats not a typo)
>bottom 40% pay -9% (again not a typo)

I think its hard to argue that they needed to be taxed more. Considering that that increase in minimum in wage will come from them while at the same time getting taxed more.

>>558954449
That image is so fucking stupid. If you prefer a free market economy - fine. Whatever. Don't pretend that no one gets screwed, ok? If you know ANYTHING about the nineteenth century, or early twentieth century you know that's
pure bullshit. Four words: robber barons and monopolies. EVERYONE gets fucked in the ass for the sake of a tiny few.

>>558971159
I've taken macro econonics. It has not been disproven. Some people don't agree with it. That hardly means its disproven.

>>558971121
What I'm talking about is, the companies who made record profits, before slashing jobs. But still do it.

HP, Microsoft and other silicon valley assholes come to mind.

>>558971413
When was that?

last i checked in the 1800s there was tons of growth in companies, high competition, leaps and bounds in living standards, with little inflation

>>558971581
im not saying tax them. I am saying minimum wage should have been increaseing while ceo/higherup pay incrase. They both should have been increasing steadily instead of people blocking to increase minimum wage.

>>558970708
>increaseing
>decreaseing
You were held back a couple grades in school weren't you?

>>558971850
Holy hell are you this delusional. Read history. Late 1800s/early 1900s people were getting payed like shit. So many people were poor and living standards were shit. Not to mention no child labour laws etc.

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>>558971312
I'm still waiting on that overweight/gun question?
Pls respond

>>558971586
unfettered free market would basically be two people pointing guns at each-other.

>>558970859
>>558971085
>>558971119
>>558971205
The money wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the company. Did your parents never teach you what's yours and what's not or something?

I'll give you an example
>Guy A starts a farm
>Guy B decides to stay inside all day and pursue knowledge
>Guy A then has more food then he knows what to do with
>Guy C then forces guy A to give guy B half of his food even though it would not effect guy A's food supply for his own living

Do you see the problem here?

>>558971927
And no i wasn't i type fast.

>>558971662
It's been disproven buddy, the value of a product does not matter how hard you worked on it.

Just look up essays on it, just because you've taken econ 101 doesn't mean you have jack shit authority nor does it mean you are correct.

You're on an anonymous image board, no one gives a shit what you do irl, your identity means nothing here

>>558972149
Yea, back then people did far more manila labor and ate bland shitty food. Right now we live as gods with mobile communication, on demand entertainment, the beat social connectivity the world has ever had and automation to make our work loves far more productive and easier.

People need to be paid more for economic reasons, but not by much.

>>558972234
I will give you another example. 1960s minimum wage guy and 1960s ceo guy. money making fair w.e

1970 ceo gay gets huge pay increase minimum wage stays the same

1980 ceo guy gets another huge pay increase minimum wage stays the same

1990 ceo guy gets another huge pay increase minimum wage stays the same

2000s ceo guy gets huge pay increase minimum wage stays the same

During this time people blocked laws from increasing minimum wage for 40 years.

If the minimum wage is raised then folks will just have to work the same hours for longer pay

>>558972165
>epik trole

You showed me!

>>558972234
>would not effect guy A's...
http://www.grammar-monster.com/easily_confused/affect_effect.htm

Idiot.

>>558972589
And autocorrect is still shit

>>558972605
Can you even read? Or are you just talking out of the side of your neck.
>IT'S NOT OK TO TAKE SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS CREATED.

>>558972605
Well you can't argue with these people.
They will always see it as coercion and theft.

>>558972149
Are you that delusional? When did the minimum wage ever get rid of poverty? Poverty was sharply declining in the 1800s as we shifted from mercantilism to capitalism you fucking nut.

You expect people in the beginning of an industrial revolution and expansion to be paid massive amounts of money? That would cut opportunity cost and stop the expansion that competition did cut down furiously on the poverty.

The minimum wage is nothing but a populist party move

>>558971205

>Yes it does. MINIMUM WAGE HAS STAYED THE SAME AS INCREASE IN CEO/HIGHER UP. Minimum >wage should have been increasing along with ceo/higher up money. But no they kept blocking increase >in minimum wage job whiel a ceo goes hey guess waht gonna increase my pay for the 137146817246 >time.

Im not sure if your advocating a Maximum Wage or something along those lines but in theory I don't think you can make a minimum wage relative to CEO's.

If they lead a company to better profits/performance they should be entitled to a bonus. Considering that they are directly responsible to all the shareholders/investors. Some of these people may even have their savings put into the company.

>>558972234
than he knows

>>558972926
Besides that one spelling mistake is that your argument?

>>558969687
hurdurdur neocons only think in zero sum

>>558972728
>>Still neglecting the fact that you're a massive homo and a pathetic human being
Seriously kill some people I know you want to.

>>558972965
WHERE DO YOU THINK IM SAYING TAKE AWAY FROM SOMETHING. ALL I AM TRYING TO DO IS FIX A WRONG THAT COMPANIES HAVE MADE SINCE THE 60S. WHY DO YOU THINK ITS OKAY FOR PEOPLE TO LIVE IN POVERTY DOING SHIT. SACRIFICE A FEW FOR THE MANY DIPSHIT. ALSO ITS NOT OKAY FOR MANY PEOPLE TO BE IN SUCH POVERTY WHEN WE HAVE THE MEANS TO CHANGE IT.

>>558973054
Yes, and a high percentage of their pay is related to their performance where as an hourly worker can slack off and still get paid the same.

>>558973340
How exactly is it wrong to not want to share what you've created?

If Congress actually listened to small-business owners, the minimum wage would be going up.

The only people fighting this are conservative (by this i don't mean republican, but set in their ways) assholes and major companies, that wants penny pinching profits.

>>558973054
Capping CEO pay had nothing to do with increasing lower paid workers. It was to allow smaller businesses with less money to attract better executives.

ITT a bunch of right wing nutjobs with no education who don't understand economics

Fuck

>>558973054
no I am not saying put minimum wage like a ceos wage that is stupid. I agree that ceo/higher ups should be paid a lot more for their work. What i am saying is minimum wage shouldnt have stagnated while higher ups pay increase for the last 40 years. it should have been steadily increasing. right now ceo/higher ups make 300+x the amoutn regular workers make. it should be around 100-150 x the amount regular workers make.

>>558973305
Do you think your cool or edgy?

Do you think insulting me is cool, do you think you win internet points?

No, you're a leddit faggot.

Fuck off N?????e??????????w??????f??????????????a??g?????????

>>558973525
If small business owners wanted to pay higher wages, they would.

>>558973457
How is it not wrong the minimum wage stagnated for 40 years and anyone trying to increase it is an evil villian? What would you do to solve this then. Have people live not in poverty and remove minimum wage then?

>>558973525
Raising the minimum wage hurts the economy m8

>>558973340
The Cost to End World Hunger. The cost to end world hunger… — $30 billion per year is needed to end world hunger. — $737 billion per year is the amount Congress spends on Defense.

>mfw revolutionary cancer drugs keep popping up in research over the last 20 years or so. But never gets to market, because there's more money in research and treating people, than curing disease.

Here's the deal, people just don't give a shit.

/tinfoil

>>558973457
Its wrong to force me to share. If I want to share, then so be it. Its not charity if you use government to take money from me to give to someone else so they will vote for your politicans.

>>558970010
its not impossible, i work for minimum wage and have my own apartment, granted its really really small and shitty, a cell phone, and a shitty computer. the thing about living on minimum wage is that its doable but you never get to go out and do anything or shit like that, you pretty much go to work and go home

>>558973669
Their pay increases are tied to company performance, not annual salary. 75% or more of a CEOs pay is hinged on the success of the company. If it wasn't for the success of the company, they would get paid less than hourly office people below them.

What you would probably rather is that your pay be based the same, you have your wages reflect the success of the company, ie how good of a worker and how good of coworkers you are.

>>558973525

raising the minimum wage would kill small business.

>>558973681
No I just wanted to remind you of how shit you are because you sound like a cunt

>>558973829
The minimum wage does not reduce poverty idiot

http://www.socsci.uci.edu/~dneumark/min_wage_review.pdf

"A summary of the last two decades of research from economists at the University of California-Irvine and the Federal Reserve Board found that 85 percent of the most credible studies on the minimum wage point to job loss for less-skilled employees."

>>558960445
If one works 40 hours or more a week in a difficult, shitty manual labor job, then yes, they're "entitled" to at least sufficient food, clothing, and basic housing. When this was actually the "conservative" paradise some of you imagine, that was a perfectly reasonable expectation. It continues to be a perfectly reasonable expectation everywhere else in the civilized world. THAT, perhaps more than anything else, shows how our country is becoming a Third World nation because of the uncontrolled greed of a tiny minority. Sometimes a little greed makes sense. Burning your house down so you can sell the copper pipes does not.

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>>558973829
Nothing needs fixing, American's in poverty live better than kings 150 years ago. They're not victims of society nor are CEO's keeping them in poverty.

>>558973054
>I don't think you can make a minimum wage relative to CEO'
Tthere's a spanish company called Mondragon that works on that principle.

His salary is locked to 8x what the lowest paid worker earns.

I'm not saying this is a good or even ethical idea, but i just wanted to let you know.

>>558960445
Completely false. Quote directly from Pew Research: "Adjusted for inflation, the federal minimum wage peaked in 1968 at $8.56 (in 2012 dollars). Since it was last raised in 2009, to the current $7.25/hour, the federal minimum has lost about 5.8% of its purchasing power to inflation."
In fact, if minimum wage followed productivity it would be $21.72 an hour...Stop being a dumb shit and fuck off

>>558973903
It sucks. People are so selfish these days. Imagine if we end world hunger literally get rid of crime lords fix shit up. We could be advancing far in sciences never before. All our potential untapped but being halted by the few who wan't to make money.

>>558973579

oh really?

>>558974210
>Thomas Sowell

My niggah

>>558955513
Just saw this reply. You are literally retarded.

>>558974164
okay so we abolish minimum wage. How will that not stop companies paying their workers 1 or 2 dollars an hour to work?

>>558963353

Incorrect, if your worker is illegal, let's assume here, she shows up just because it's a job oppourinity, people think immigrants always have the ability to get any job, that's not always true, in fact, I think she thinks you're a miracle worker for paying that much.

>>558974139
It would kill shitty small business. The ones who would fail if not for their ability to have cheap labor. Small businesses should be in the margins to have better profits relative to revenue.

>>558973923
Congratulations! You're an intellectual!

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>>558954449

Individuals in power simply don't have the majority's best interests. I certainly wouldn't. Communities always band together to establish governments, and they reach a consensus on what they don't want people doing.

>I don't want you to rape my daughter, so I won't rape your daughter

If they have the foresight, they'll make sure no one person or group gets too powerful. You don't want the people making the laws to be enforcing them, or the people enforcing them to be interpreting them.

It's not perfect, but it works.

>>558974260
Since when did productivity negate the value of a product you fucktard?

If a burger flipper produces $20 (with inflation accounted for) in 1968, and still produces $20 today there is no reason to increase it.

>>558974210
who cares if they live like kings compared to back then. we are talking now on how to fix minimum wage and fix poverty. abolishing it will increase poverty to the extreme. To think people will defend to abolish minimum wage or let it stagnate as ceo/higher ups get even more money holding the country in a vice grip.

>>558972169
Exactly.

>>558974139
I honestly have never seen a single small business that would go bankrupt for a on a 15 dollar wage. Except for ultra strapped startups, which could possibly be excluded by law.

>>558964723
>hen why not raise it to $15 per hour or $50 per hour?
This is a fallacy you fucking retard

>The minimum wage simply prevents employment between consenting parties
Is a contract for endentured servitude "employment between consenting parties"
People are forced into situations

>>558964874
>A 39% increase in the minimum wage could easily lead to greater poverty. If there are that many more people unable to find work, we really have no idea how bad the effects could be.
So these guys who know what they're talking about are full of shit and WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN based on absolutely nothing is the entire economy might collapse overnight resulting in a nuklar holocaust of biblical proportions

>>558965354
>If the employer simply can’t make a big enough profit paying an extra $2.85 per hour per worker, then the employer might just shut his doors for business. The extra expense might be around $5,000 per month. And if any of the other workers were making around $10 per hour, how would they feel making the same amount as the other people who have less experience or fewer skills?
THIS SHIT IS TARGETED AT MEGLOBILLION DOLLAR COPORATIONS WHO ARE THE LARGEST EMPLOYERS IN THE COUNTRY AND POSTING RECORD PROFITS YOU IGNORANT FUCKTARD
If the small business owner actually had an issue with it they'd cut his taxes.
You're so full of shit.
Wrap your lips around the barrel of a berretta.

>>558974210
Rich people actually benefit a lot from what other people do. Think about any company and think about their product. Would the guy who started the company be rich if he started on an island alone? Without the rest of society? Of course not. They owe a lot to society because social climate, their workers, the services etc were there for them. This is why they pay higher taxes. Poor people do not benefit from those things in the same way rich people do. (if you believe they do, you are literally retarded).

Thomas sowell is an idiot.

>>558974606
then why should ceo get huge pay inscrease. there is no reason to increase it.

>>558974645
Stop living beyond your means
>poverty solved

>>558974450
Because of competition, anon, because of competition.

I don't think you understand when there are hundreds of thousands of actors who want a steady stream of labor that if one pays shit the laborer selling their labor won't go to another employer.

In Hong Kong they have no minimum wage but heir average salary has increased greatly and there is a massive amount of wealth being created in that country/province.

This is a big part of it. I worked for a company that laid off 15% of it's workforce, the week before Xmas and with no warning, to "maximize profits". Then they went out in January and hired several high priced MBAs in VP slots who proceeded to tank the company harder, alienating it's core market and customers. Reaction? They laid off another 15% 6 months later, all low paid employees, like admins, not a single executive was laid off, and they all got bonuses even though profits were way off and they lost 60% of their core market. 60%. Documented, but hushed up.

That's why discussing a higher minimum wage is ludicrous, because we KNOW what will happen - people will lose jobs to make up for the loss of profit. Corporations only care about maximum profit, lowest overhead possible, and a strong stock price. Period. Everything else is expendable. Minimum wage goes up, 10% of the company gets laid off, prices go up for the customer, and the execs will be laughing their way to another Outward Bound camp for a week on Hawaii on the company dime.

This isn't an economic problem that be solved by mandating wages. It's a cultural problem, that will be solved only when the executive office is held to the same standards the lower workers are, the ridiculous employment packages for them are reigned in, and the corporate culture returns to caring about things like longevity, quality of workplace and product/services, and not sacrificing employees for the stock price. Not gonna happen in our lifetime. Raising the minimum wage will be seen by history as a useless exercise and a bandaid on a massive, obvious flaw in our society.

>>558974645
What poverty? the bottom % in America still have cars, tvs, internet, cellphones, cheap fast food. Your argument is to give them all that and more for free.

>>558974047

see your the guy i actually really feel for. Honestly, save every penny and go to school for something. If you do manage to pull it off. Get a protected title, i can't stress that enough. (Engineering, Accounting, Med, Law) ect.

My uncle got a biology degree and still found it hard to find a job because he didnt have a title.

>>558974947
Love government control? Move to North Korea

>>558974867
im not im saying we could drastically reduce poverty. we can already end world hunger. we are at a point right now where not many people have to work because of machines. we can invest in science and in the arts etc.

>>558974528
I don't understand, it isn't a miracle for her. She has a lot of job opportunities.

>>558974606
but it's not
>(with inflation accounted for)

>>558974769
Probably a troll but I'll play. The rich people are rich because they created something poor people want.
Is that really so bad? Should Steve Jobs have been forced to give everybody free IPhone's?

>>558974892
Competition won't change the fact that companies will continue to develop new technologies to cut the cost of paying their employees (new machines to do the job etc) and the workers won't be as needed. They will be the ones who will have to settle for less if they want to work. We're not in the 1900s anymore you fucking retard.

I really only think it will be a good idea to raise minimum wage once somebody finds a way to stop inflation, which I don't think will happen.

>Holy hell are you this delusional. Read history. Late 1800s/early 1900s people were getting payed like shit. So many people were poor and living standards were shit. Not to mention no child labour laws etc.

the late 1800's and early 1900's were the era of the robber barons.

If you were lower class then, you were fucked.

It's scary how clueless how many Americans are of our history.

>>558974892
i guess competition fixed the late 1800s and early 1900s 1 dollar wage then. People are waaaayy more complacent today then they are back then. back then people would revolt if they found out their own government was spying on them. Now a days people joke and don't do shit. if companies abolish minimum wage very few people would revolt or do anything to change it

>>558975224
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach him to fish and it's up to him to feed himself, but if he knows you have fish you can give him, the pole he has is always broken.

>>558974814
Because he found cheaper ways to acquire resources, making the burgers cheaper, making the amount of burgers he flips a little bit more per hour.

You do realize that those 'ebul CEOs who just want tot ake out money!!! moar welfare!!' are people who worked very hard in school and learned and were not lazy and used their full potential to go where they are now, right?

>>558962347
This was never necessary for basic living. Why is it now? What has changed, except for the rich being way richer now?

>>558962367
The objective wrong? Because a country does not thrive when 99% of its citizens are poor. While we're not there, this is what the free market pushes people towards. The people in control only care about staying in control, and they have 0 incentive to help anyone else. They don't spend money on things that help an economy thrive.

>>558963563
Because they aren't willing to pay minimum wage if they can pay below, even if it means doing so illegally. But yeah these people care about us. Let's put all of our lives and our trust in their hands. Fucking morons.

>>558966035
>>558967197
Oh, because if they pay people 5 dollars an hour, they'll definitely not keep making these anyway to further cut employee costs.
>>558972965
It absofuckinglutely is when it's causing your country to shit itself economically. Think if you were in charge, and companies did fuck all for your people, so they starved, moved, and turned it into a second or third world country. Look at our infrastructure compared to other countries. Look at our transit, look at our internet even. Compare it to countries that recovered from the world recession better. Now look at countries that don't give a shit about this and worry only about the rich. Look at Russia, look at shitball favelas in the middle east. But then you have the abundance of jobs in places like India coming from our country. They have little regulation, but the money takes them way farther there, so it has actually helped them enormously. Here, where the CoL is way higher, people aren't being paid the equivalent. So what happens? We take a dive. If you were in charge of a country, why would you let that happen? There is literally nobody that it is good for outside of the richest of the rich.

>>558974947
>Somalia as a Libertarian utopia meme
Yeah, you have no fucking clue about history.

>>558974986
So how could we solve it then?

>>558974947
Somalia is the product of socialism you fucking idiot

>>558974538
>>558974656

No you guys are thinking about it wrong. If a small business all the sudden has to pay 15$ an hour for example. That has to come from somewhere, whether it be layoffs, less hours for employees.

With that in mind, the small business still has to compete with other businesses, some of which will have more money then they do and can still charge lower prices and provide better service, which would ultimately lead to them going out of business.

>>558975589
How exactly are companies fucking people by selling them goods?

>>558975013
the bottom % of america has to work a shit ton of jobs with no health care. Are you delisional there are a lot of poor people in america alone. and my argument isn't to give them all that and more it is to give them a wage to live on that they won't have to struggle all the time. I am done arguing with you. If you want to impede or slow down human progress for a few extra bucks fine by me.

>>558975374
"something poor people want"
A technology that society wanted. Social climate made it the next big thing (did you know that things like the Iphone have existed before but they didn't catch on?)

It came out at the right time with the right marketing. Was it all steve job's doing? No. He came up with an idea that wasn't new and asked people to make it seem like a good idea. So does he deserve billion? Is he the one who did all the job? No, not even fucking close. The people who made it what it is get paid like shit compared to him.

You are obviously very stupid if you can't understand that.

>>558975106
>Engineering, Accounting, Med, Law
That's freedom right there. Do these or starve!

And law degrees don't mean shit any more. The industry is flooded.

Hobby Lobby voluntarily pays it's employees $15 an hour + benefits and closes Sundays.

>>558957786
Why would acquiring an object that makes you powerful in mass quantities be sad?

>>558975441
No, one dollar back in 1800s was actually a lot of money.

Even during a depreciation of the dollar in 1907 a dollar in 1913 is worth $24.08 today m8.

People are not any less complacent today than they were yesterday my friend, in fact they demand more and more.

>>558974356

Care to elaborate as to why?

>Their pay increases are tied to company performance, not annual salary. 75% or more of a CEOs pay is hinged on the success of the company.

Complete and utter bullshit. It's widely known that companies reward bonuses for failure, as well as success - best example is the banks that got bailed out paid HUGE bonuses to the fucks who blew everything up WITH BAILOUT FUNDS.

Corporate motherfuckers have pulled out every excuse they can out of their fat asses to justify it, too. "Oh, we have to pay that much to attract the right talent" - yeah, the same "talent" who get to decide who to lay off when they fuck up.

Who at Microsoft got laid off above the level of manager for the fiasco that Windows 8 was? I know a bunch of low level people did.

What punishment did Balmer get for almost tanking the company? He's got a pension that would make you weep.

Tied to success, my pasty Irish ass. You're a clueless fucking douchebag.

>>558975409
Inflation is needed in our system. It's an incentive to spend money.

Raising the minimum wage to something like 11$ will NOT make inflation go out of control. (look at other countries that did this. Canada has almost 11$/hour and inflation remains at 1,9% most of the time)

But hey, keep on using retarded arguments.

>>558975783
Under their ideal, goods with no regulation, completely monopolized, poor quality, dangerous, still expensive. Working conditions poor, unsafe, paying nothing.
We know this, because it is what happened, and what continues to happen when there are no regulations. You might think you're immune because you're either too young and still think everything will work out wonderfully, or you're from a family that has given you everything, or you think your middle class job would be safe from that. In all of these cases, you need to educate yourself, because this happens constantly. Nowhere ever can you find a working example of what you describe, but I can point out endless ones where it just doesn't work.

>>558975931
>That's freedom right there. Do these or starve!

You're free to pick whatever job you want.

You just have to suffer the consequences of your choices and actions

>>558975843
Still better off than they were 50 years ago. and things will continue to get better with free markets.

>>558975914
No no no, the IPhone won because it was cheaper and better than it's competitors. You see that's how free markets work, the best idea always wins.

>>558975931
>Med, Law
>Money
Maybe in it's hay-day, but unless you get in on a top law program you're shit out of luck.

And medicine, enjoy your measly bucks, debt and disdain for human life.

>>558975589
>Because a country does not thrive when 99% of its citizens are poor.

Yeah I know communism/socialism doesn't
work.

Hong Kong has no minimum wage and it is absolutely thriving, poverty is greatly decreasing and wages are going up due to competition and this trend has been going on since it's creation. With no resources of it's own besides a little fishing it is doing extraordinarily well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqh0zXSd4vc

>>558974604
That's why our gov. has 3 departments

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>>558968671
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJfKXbvA5T8
Something like this guys shit

the probably with increasing minimum wage it would hurt small businesses person but it would help the guy working for a greedy cooperation.

>>558976408
Better off because of regulations in safety that placed restrictions on companies. That and basic advances in technology.

>>558975960
Christians doing the right thing for once. I'm glad.

>>558976254
Here's a simple answer. No ones forching anybody to buy from that company. You socialist always complain about this then go to walmart and buy an Iphone.

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>>558975526
i know that. are you listening to what i am saying. I am saying why is it fair for ceos to block minimum wage increase for 40 years WHILE INCREASING THEIR OWN PROFITs to astronomical portions.

It would be like if i had a cure for cancer, aids and every disease but instead of giving it out to people i say no you cant make me give it to people i make too much money treating them until they die.

>>558976036
Look at the image. people made shit money back then. Learn to history m8. i can't believe you think the poor had a good living back then. getting payed for shit. not eating starving. I am done arguing with and idiot like you.

>>558976109
Abolishing it is a race to the bottom. Employers will always pay less while technology replaces human workers. People will become poor and they'll become criminals (that''s what poverty does) which will cost a lot etc

It's a spiral downward.

>>558976624
No, regulations just get in the way of what the consumers wants.

>>558976493
>Hong Kong has no minimum wage
>mfw CAP 608 MINIMUM WAGE ORDINANCE
Yeah, we've had it for 5 or so years.

>>558976691
There is no way someone can do his research on every product he buys. Not only that but you'd need consumers to be perfect as in wanting to act for the greater good. If it was the case then the free market would work. It's not. This is why government regulation is needed.

>>558954691
can we stop pretending it is okay to stay at a minimum wage job for life?

hard to gather up sympathy for these fucks when they complain about shit pay, but lag ass at work, yet have iphones and jordans

>>558974606
If minimum wage followed the pay increase and worth the 1% has felt we would have reached $30/hr in 2007. Arguing for anything but a minimum wage increase is fucking asinine...

>>558976408
>No no no, the IPhone won because it was cheaper and better than it's competitors. You see that's how free markets work, the best idea always wins.

Oh, obvious troll.

>>558976694
I am asking you, what is the objective problem with employers having more profit? They know the risk of hoarding their cash. If your jealous then see how easy it is to make your own business and succeed.

The poor had their living standards increase dramatically you idiotic cunt. If you look at living standards in the US vs Russian empire in 1913 you would see a very stark difference. The Russian Empire had no economy and was still living under serfdom whereas the US went under industrialization and living standards greatly increased in the previous century you fuckwad.

I never said they were living good like today, but their living conditions have GREATLY fucking increased and has been for centuries.

>>558977004
With that logic it would be in the companies best interest to openly advertise why their products better. Anybody with the right mind would buy the food that has the ingredients on it, so then the company that doesn't would go out of business. How freedom of choice works my lad.

>>558977167
Because everyone are capable of running their own company or climb the fucking corporate chain, right?

No matter what, there'd always be a need for minimum wage jobs

>>558976493
They have a minimum wage, you dumb bag of cocks.
>>558976691
Monopolies would, you dumber bag of cocks.
>>558976858
Yeah, I'd love some nice mercury in my food, and asbestos in my house. When does regulation get in the way of what consumers want? Because I can give endless regulations that have saved lives and prevented enormous negatives.

>>558976858
Hey did you know without regulations companies would give you shit meat and shit food with maggots in them. Oh wait are you saing it happened before? well of course it did. Not only did it happen during the industrial revolution SOMEONE MADE A BOOK ABOUT IT CALLED JUNGLE. Imagine no regulation Im sure those good companies wouldn't replace most of what they are selling with cheap materials.

>>558976718
>People will become poor and they'll become criminals

thats kinda stereotyping poor people isnt it?

regardless, minimum wasge isn MEANT to be a fuckin living wage. its a job just for someone with no skills. if one refuses to expand their skillset/become a harder worker, then they dont deserve more than minimum

>>558977382
And i am asking you what is the problem wit employees having more profit? And i know they had better living standards in russia that doesn't mean companies were screwing them over.

>>558977167
>BOOHOO POOR PEOPLE HAVE PHONES AND SHOES.
Jesus fucking christ.

>>558977503
Idk what country you live in but in the USA companies don't force anyone to buy anything.

>>558976876
In the last few years, but for the last several decades there were no minimum wage m8. Anyways their currency minimum wage is a trinket to appease those who criticize them aboard

>>558977382
does it makes since when the employer makes billions of dollars while their workers are on welfare?

I love how so many people who make barely more than minimum wage are militantly against raising it and act like elitists. They have no idea there bullshit job is hanging by a thread and it's only getting worse.

>Maybe in it's hay-day, but unless you get in on a top law program you're shit out of luck.

Seriously this. I know a bunch of lawyers, they all HATE their jobs, it's a fucking grind. It's not exciting, it's not glamorous, you don't make big money unless you make partner or work for a premier firm. It's soul-killing make work, to pad the bill for the partners. Or, you're grinding bucks working family law or divorce law, or sleeping in endless meetings doing commercial or real estate law.

And, yes, we have way too many lawyer now.

The growth industries for the next 30 years are nursing, home-care, retirement housing, and anything related to the massive amounts of aging boomers who will be retiring. Lots of states are screaming for nurses.

Science is also screaming for people. I sat next to a young woman on a plane, who was a lab technician, who did things like drug testing. She made a pretty good salary (over 100k a year), they flew her around the world for training, and had solid benefits, and enjoyed her work. She said they needed several more like her, and were having problems finding candidates.

>>558977435
But without regulations company can just lie about the product. It's easier than actually making something good.

Keep being retarded

>>558977701
>THEY ARE STARVING HALP THE WELFARE MAMAM GET MAOR MONEY!!
>But sir they have iphones and really expensive shoes, why would..

>SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU CIS GENDERED BIGOT

Kill yourself you faggot

>>558954449
move this shit to the proper board. Ive been doing econ homework all day please let me relax, jesus

>>558977527
What part of competition will stamp out most of these degenerative companies, don't you understand?

>>558977527
Jumping to the worst possible out come is always good.
Again no one would ever buy from these companies and they'd go out of business.
If you really need government to tell you not to eat food with maggots in them you're an idiot.

>>558954449
Increase minimum wage.
cost passed on to minimum wage earners
price of gas goes up
price of food goes up
value of your increased wage falls back to normal
Small businesses less common
harder to find a job
economy will suffer

THREAD OVER

>>558977647
Not stereotyping, there's a direct correlation. (Enough to imply causation in this case.)

Did you ever take a sociology class or something like that in college?

>>558977445
everyone IS capable

it ALL boils down to 'do they want it bad enough'

everyone is so fucking entitled now, the reason i hear the MOSt why they suck at their job is 'why do i have to work hard first? what if i work hard and they dont pay me more"

well stupid fucks, you agreed to that job when you were hired. if you want to barely do the minimum of your job, expect minimum fucking pay.

if one cant move up to a better ob after a few years, they kinda deserve the shit theyre getting.

nothing but entitled shits everywhere

>>558977995
What is late 1800s/early 1900s companies that existed paying shit wage. What part of competition doesn't always benefit the consumer don't you understand. we have examples of unregulated markets doing shit for hte consumer a la late 1800s early 1900s

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>>558977720
Again. Take away the regulations. Monopolies existed in the past. They pretty much still do today.

>>558977647
yea, because only the lazy and unskilled are poor.

>>558978149
Liberals don't understand that.

They use their magic economy dust they removes all reality an suddenly anything is possible, why not increase the minimum wage to $1,000,000 an hour?

>>558976718

>Abolishing it is a race to the bottom. Employers will always pay less while technology >replaces human workers. People will become poor and they'll become criminals (that''s >what poverty does) which will cost a lot etc

>It's a spiral downward.

People being replaced by technology is inevitable in certain occupations whether there is a minimum wage or not. The higher wage would only speed that process.

As for a race to the bottom, depends on how you look at it. North America is moving towards technological-centric economy. Its going to become mandatory for in the next 20 or so years to have at least 2 years of college education if they want a decent living. I see it is an incentive for a more educated population.

>>558977886
No one would buy from said company. Maybe you're just the retard who needs to be told to not buy mercury from a company and eat it.

>>558978149
I love this post because it is completely wrong and has been proven to be wrong by every economic organization in the world

>>558962213
Agreed. Washington has the highest minimum that I saw, but it's very reasonable on the composite as compared to California which has a much lower minimum. Some places cost too damn much to live in because that's just the way it is. "Oh you like our beaches? $900/month for a single room with a window facing a brick wall." "We're Maine, we fish and shit, therefore give us all of the money."