How did the whole flippy/technical meme start?

>>3109204
>WWE is the only wrestling that ever existed

Embarrassing thread.

Rey mysterio

>>3109226
WCW is dead and other modern feds do even more flippy technical shit than the E does. Maybe in Japan or Mexico that's what people want, but not in America. Us burgers want big charismatic monsters.

>It's obvious to anyone who pays attention to pro wrestling that THE most important factors are charisma, intensity, storytelling, and look.

Work rate and ethic are just as important, and Flippyshits do (usually) have a good work/ethic, and intensity


>Hogan wasn't particularly athletic.
Nash, Hall, Kane, and Undertaker weren't.
Austin wasn't particularly athletic.
Rock wasn't particularly athletic.
Mankind sure as fuck wasn't.
HGH wasn't.
Jericho, Angle, Guerrero, and Benoit were athletic, but that's not the main reason they became popular. Jericho, Angle, and Guererro were funny and charismatic. Benoit was intense and looked like a monster (and was one too, I guess).

I can't really dispute this but you're focusing on the E's and WCW's draws. Most Indie shows draw their dimes through flippyshits.

>Who the fuck thought the future of pro wrestling would be technical shit and boring people using their real names?

This hasn't been thought to be the future since the Attitude Era

>Vince McMahon is literally driving the E into the ground but at least he seems to understand that you need big brute-looking dudes with intensity and charisma. His mistake is that he keeps picking the wrong dudes. Cena is a joke. Reigns has no charisma. But the fundamental idea of what draws dimes is correct.

I agree that big guys draw dimes, but flippyshits are the current fad, at least in the Indies. It'll pass some day and a new style will take over. Wrestling is constantly in flux, and will continue to be so.

>Kane, Undertaker & Rock weren't particularly athletic

18+ you fucking embarrassment

>>3109273
charisma for the kids

>>3109204
>Who the fuck thought the future of pro wrestling would be technical shit?
Japan and Mexico.
When America gained mainstream appeal in the mid eighties, a LOT of young American men wanted to get into the business. But, a lot of them were smaller than the "Titans" they saw on WrestleMania or NWA (bodybuilders and football players).
For those smaller young American men who were truly serious about getting into the profession, the most viable option was to cut their teeth in Mexico or Japan, where the local performers were also smaller, and doing more (relatively) high flying performances than their roided up muscle-obsessed 1980's American counterparts.
When around 1993 ish these English speaking wrestlers got a lot of experience (guys like Benoit, Jericho, and Pillman come to mind), they were seen as good enough to be in the low-mid card on WCW, where they brought a faster paced style (and brought a few immigrants over with them over the border because they worked together before and had chemistry... Rey, Guerrero, Juvi etc.)

Now, of course, kids in 1995-1997 are seeing these smaller guys, and think to themselves, shit if they can do this i can too. And the bookers saw this surge in American interest in more high flying, lighter weight wrestling (It didnt help the bigger guys were getting older and slower, and probably didnt inspire kids to be like them like they did in the 80's). Instead, kids liked Bret and Shawn and Jericho and Rey and Benoit. Some liked Juvi and Kidman even.

>>3110646
And these kids who now were getting into the biz in late 90s early 2000's were flooding up the indies.

Remember, WWF and WCW are only as good as what the indies are giving them. As much as we like to think the big companies "create" the stars, all the WWE can ever truly do is pick guys out of the indie scene. And if the indies' most charismatic performers are smaller guys, thats the best you got.
Plus, with the steroid bans, it opens the floodgates even more for small 16-19 year olds to keep filling up indy rosters.

Alleged grown adults inability to comprehend how people can like things they don't is never not hilarious.
This is just a covert shitty trolling thread trying to belittle people who like flippyshit.
Grow up, get over yourself.
Imagine admitting to be an easily impressed mark who marks out for muscles and tall and good hair.
Pathetic.

>>3109204
Hardy Boyz

>>3109204
>Austin Rock Mankind HGH
Lets not forget how important chair shots to the head and blading were for getting the guys of this era over. The hype or "intensity" as you say were not all based on promos and charisma, but it was the weapons based brawling nature of their biggest matches too.

WWE doesnt want to do this anymore bc the concussion and health problems.
So what are guys supposed to do now? I think, in my opinion, the impending failure of 205 Live shows that small flippy guys are a subculture fad and will never be the next "golden age."
I think its guys like Omega and Styles who can wrestle AND do a FEW flips that will be the future drawing style.
Ospreay and Ricochet types will not, imo.

>>3109204
>It's obvious to anyone who pays attention to pro wrestling that THE most important factors are charisma, intensity, storytelling, and look.
Get on with times, grandpa

>>3110679
failure of 205 Live: from the first time Cruisers started on RAW it was doomed to fail
They haven't gotten ANY vignettes for people in arena to get to know them.
Champion (and championship belt) WEREN'T on RAW during their debut. And in the middle of the match of "the most impressive hour of television" you thrown on a headlock? Really?
And of course, you have Cedric, Tozawa and so on and first cruisers you choose to use is Daivari and Noam Dar? Really?
And then you throw on soap opera storyline with CWC being the purely sportsy. If you keep some semblence of a league or sport competition or even ladder style placement and number one contendership matches for title matches you'd be different from RAW.
And of course those fucking purple ropes which killed it from the start. You cool of crowd with ad break and putting on the purple rope? Good job, Vince, you doomed them from the start.

>>3110679
And also, Ospreay is awesome in every other aspect of wrestling, he's not only flipping guy. He can go on the mat, he is good promo. He has babyface fire, he is great asshole heel.
Go watch anything besides gifs of flips. Last BoSJ with KUSHIDA is great example. It build from previous matches they have with each other, after every devastating move both guys are on the ground selling. Will is selling his ass off to KUSHIDA's submissions, he scrambles to ropes anytime it looks like KUSHIDA will lock anything. It is my match of the year. Okada v Omega 2 is second best and AJ Styles v Cena from Rumble is third.

Vocal minority making the loudest noise. Somehow they went from the soap opera and compelling characters, the anything can happen atmosphere to the fake fighting itself being the centerpiece of the show, 20 minute pointless matches on RAW which nobody but smarks care about and the ratings show that. Workrate and being a "great wrestler" has never drawn the mass audience.

>>3110679
>in my opinion, the failure of a show that was set-up to fail

>>3110691
I was the guy making those long ass posts. I dont care for the "workrate/flippy" aesthetic either. I watch wrestling primarily for characters, storylines, funny promos and goofy hijinx (which every promotion seems to suck at these days sadly.)
I dont think the best works of art are showcases of technical ability for its own sake, and it leaves me scratching my head how people honestly enjoy it. Give me the Braun/Lesnar table spotfest or Styles/Ambrose TLC brawl any day.

>>3110691
Same as in '60s you mean? Yep. Or in any other decade before TV money being the most important money? And how Vince wants to be a film-maker? A movie studio? Yeah. That.

>>3110646
In the mid 90's WCW did a lot to give exposure to the whole luchadore / new japan scene. They did a lot more than WWF at the time to make it mainstream and use it to fill their undercard and sometimes midcard.

Go back to Dynamite Kid vs Tiger Mask and start from there.

>hall
>kane
>undertaker
>austin
>not athletic

25+ sonny pick 1

>the most important factors are charisma, intensity, storytelling, and look
>Proceeds to say Cena is a joke

Which one is it Op?

>>3110772
He is some Attitude Era nostalgia fag who thinks all wrestling should be like that
Ignore him

>>3110710
>(which every promotion seems to suck at these days sadly.)

Name a promotion you've watched this year that isn't WWE or TNA

probably when heyman brought those spics to ecw

>>3110593
Rey was more than just Charisma, he had speed and powerful moves to make up for being a manlet.

Flippy shit isn't technical, technical wrestling is more the slow methodical realistic looking English style wrestling used by Finlay, Regal, etc and it's amazing to watch. The flippy shit seems to be westernized lucha crap mixed with Japanese strong style strikes.

>>3109204

I blame people surrounding the culture like Meltzer. They somehow started believing that what made wrestling fun was how believable or interesting the fake fighting looked. Internet marks started taking their opinions from these people instead of listening to their instincts about things and here we are

>>3109372
>Work rate and ethic

No, this is not important to a normal person who doesn't post on an autistic circus wrestling board

>>3110942
>it's Meltz's fault that cruiserweights got popular 20 years ago

>>3110951

Not exactly what I said. I'm saying that people started worshiping the opinions of his type on the internet so they can flex nuts in forums and leddit. The disconnect between wrestling critics and mainstream audiences is even larger than the one you find for regular film and TV.

GODDAMN FLIPPYSHIT IS KILLING THE BUSINESS, THESE KIDS NEED TO SLOW DOWN AND SELL THE MOV-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yuIyNG5v6M

>>3109372
>but flippyshits are the current fad, at least in the Indies.

The current trend in the indies is BIG LADS who can work like Cobb, Lee and Walter.

>>3110956
This match is awesome.
also this >>3109226

>>3110954
>HUGE DISCONNECT BETWEEN CRITICS AND FANS!!!
'sup Dwayne ?

>>3110954
>The disconnect between wrestling critics and mainstream audiences is even larger than the one you find for regular film and TV.

This. Casuals just want to be enertained by larger than life characters and entertaining storylines. They don't watch it to analyze every match move by move so they can rate the fake fight with star ratings that means nothing.

>>3110954
Meltz gave Rock vs. Austin in X-Seven 4.5 snowflakes. You're talking outta yo' ass.

>>3110970
Explains why casuals have left WWE in droves since 2001 and especially since Roman Reigns got his big megapush

>>3110970
You mean like star rating is also investment of the crowd? If you have the best match in the world from move by move and crowd sits on their hands, the match is not so much fun.
Star rating is same as rating a movie. Did you have fun? Give it four stars. Have you had fun and it was the best movie you saw whole year? Give it five stars.
That's the star rating.

>>3110749
It wasn't even that flippy

What's the earliest example of moonsaults and other flippy shit? Can't find shit on Youtube

>>3110985
I posted a match from the 60s just above here that had ranas

>>3110985
Fucking Santo did Suicide dives and Planchas. His finisher was diving headbutt. Flippy shit was in wrestling in '50s.

>>3110991
You mean flying headscissors? Yeah, those were in wrestling in '20s.
Fuck this "indy shitters manlet flying around ruining my wrestling" meme.

>>3109204
What happened was we used to call that the cruiserwieght division, but now guys are so small that they're starting to bleed into the heavyweight division. Keep the flippy shit in the cruiserweights, and the actual wrestling in the heavyweights.

>>3111024
I started typing something, then gave up. You are wrong.

Found a spotfest from the 60s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNLAFlqztGM

>>3110973

Him giving it a 4.5 instead of just giving it a 5 is some true contrarianism. Let me guess how his review went:

"ah ya know, I mean, I guess it was the biggest match of the uhhh year. But I mean....I GUESS the crowd loved it...I mean they sold the arena out I suppose but uhh I don't know, I thought the false finishes were a bit over done, uhhh...the heel turn was a surprise but i'm not sure if this stone cold character is really getting over anyways, uhhhhh..."

>>3109297
>big charismatic monsters
Yeah how is that working for ya. Other than Strowman I can't think of a single one.

>>3111176
>being this pathetically seething over 0.5 of a star rating
oh but I thought you don't care what Meltzer thinks? Fuck him and his irrelevant ratings right?
Then why are you crying about it?
Pathetic.

>>3109204
>Flippshit
>Technical

Someone get this hothead outta here

>Undertaker wasn't athletic
FUUUUUUCK

OFFFFFFFFF

>>3111176
>being this upset over a review score

>Undertaker not athletic

You have to be pretty damn agile in order to avoid hitting a single dime for 25 years.

>>3111338
>>3111581

Worked.

>>3110772
Cena can be legitimately funny, but he has no intimidation factor. Because of this, it's hard for me to take him seriously as a top guy. He strikes me as more of comedic, Mankind-type dude. Main eventer? Sure. Just not top guy. Now, one could argue that Hogan was never really intimidating either, but Hogan at least could look crazy/intense when he wanted to.
This isn't necessarily Cena's fault... I know word has it that the company just doesn't want him to fuck up his good guy image. For all I know, maybe he would be really good at being intimidating if he was allowed to. I'm just criticizing the character, not the actor himself.

>>3109204 (OP)
You faggot. Undertaker was during suicide dives and walking on the ropes.If that doesn't take any athleticism than you're a fucking dumb ass.

>>3109204
There's a difference between pro wrestling and sports entertainment. Think of it like the territories. There are people that prefer New York, with an emphasis on all those things you pointed out. Then there are people that prefer rasslin', which had character work and all that, but put the focus on ring work.
So while WWF was doing Mega Powers Explode, love triangles and all that stuff, NWA had Flair and Steamboat wrestling 60 minute classics.
Of course, there are people who enjoy and watch both. The real flippy shit probably had its roots in Mexico, that's what lucha is partially built on. As the business evolved, there was demand from some for a more athletic style, more exciting and unpredictable matches, and a fanbase grew that either wanted to see these things, or began to study and respect the "psychology" of a wrestling match, which is what puro is based on in Japan.
Different strokes.

>>3112156
I'm using "athletic" to mean "athletic relative to WWE standards".

File: efb8b-robvandam[1].png (149KB, 450x385px) Image search: [Google]

149KB, 450x385px

>>3109204
>sorry about ruining wrestling, bruh