which one . . .

>>2629112
Based MIZ

>implying Miz would do any better in a shoot

>>2629122
> implying miz would work himself into a shoot

Someone who gets to creampie Maryse everynight wins by default.

Difference is CM Punk is an A-Lister with one of the most memorable title wins, he didn't even need Wrestlemania. Miz is a solid heel midcarder but not even close to Punk's greatness Could care less about their wives but my conclusion is that Miz is doing a great job but Punk will always be more relevant.

>>2629135
>creampies every night
> still no kids

Low count miz smdh

>>2629127
Phil mark btfo

>>2629139
Hahaha. Punk's entire title run was completely forgettable and a snoozefest.

>>2629139
>he didn't even need Wrestlemania
Phil disagrees.

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>>2629139
>Miz went from reality TV star to pro wrestler
>Punk went from pro wrestler to reality TV star

CM "Reverse Miz" Punk.

File: TheMizPunk.jpg (164KB, 1280x1010px) Image search: [Google]

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ITT:

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>>2629139
I think Punk is a gigantic faggot and deserved worse in the octagon but you're right, he will always be remembered more than the Miz.

Punk's WWE title reign was mediocre but the Miz had one of the worst title reigns in history and constantly came out to crickets. He's only been talked about since he had that stint with Sandow and thus became smark interest. He was universally hated and irrelevant for most of his WWE career.

The Miz is doing better now but he'll never be top tier, unless booking forces it or smarks continue to ride his cock.

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>>2629237
>constantly came out to crickets
Huh...but that's just not true

>>2629237
>smark opinions on someone means he's over

Tell me about CM Punk's PPV buys and ratings. There's a reason why he was the midcard WWE champion until he became a transitional champion to the Rock.

>>2629246
https://youtu.be/ahbeSxlHFh8
>can't even get a pop on the grandest stage of them all
>as WWE champion

>>2629237
>constantly came out to crickets

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/836331-the-miz-cuts-a-promo-in-italian-at-live-event-video-matt-hardy-wants-the-young-bucks-in-wwe-alexa-bliss-wwe-network-pick-video-y2j-news

>>2629259
can this audio quality BE anymore worse

>>2629252
PPV buys trended up during Punk's reign

>>2629252
>smark opinions on someone means he's over
That's the point I'm making about the Miz, it doesn't difference is Punk had a bigger casual following and sold a ton of merch

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>>2629259
>heel champ
>getting a pop

You're intentionally being retarded, right?

The reason why the Miz was chosen over CM Punk to act as foil to Cena is that he's the only guy at the time who people hated more than Cena.

He had Kevin Federline heat.

>>2629267
Read from the start and you'll realize I'm talking about when he was garbage for years. I already said he's better now.

>>2629267
>footage of this weekend proves Miz was over during his 2010-2011 title reign

>>2629284
>heels don't get pops at Wrestlemania

>>2629284
>Pop, A loud sudden heat from a house as a response to a wrestler's entry or hot move.
A pop refers to any noise, he got nothing.

>>2629282
The Miz is a heel. A heel isn't supposed to be a draw. He's supposed to get the face over.

As great as the nWo angle was, it ruined heel dynamics and had people wishing for tweeners and heels that sell merch.

>>2629282
So Punk is yet another heel that gets cheered? Get in line.

>>2629300
>A heel isn't supposed to be a draw.

>nWo ruined heel dynamics and invented heel merch

None of this is even close to accurate, you dumb underage shit.

>>2629290
>wanting heels to get pops

State of the wrestling world today.

>>2629295
>not hearing the chorus of boos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJXyULyPzYI

>>2629304
>None of this is even close to accurate, you dumb underage shit.

A heel is supposed to get a face over, who is a draw. A heel that gets cheered should either become a face or waste his potential.

Admit it or not, the Miz is a better heel than Punk in terms of boos because people will always cheer Punk as an anti-authority face a la Stone Cold.

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>>2629300
>A heel isn't supposed to be a draw.
I've heard every excuse under the sun for the Miz but this is a new one

>>2629290
Did you not hear the endless stream of boos for the Miz?

Wrestling Psychology 101. He's a heel viewed as not belonging in the ring versus the superior face.

>>2629305
>being this obtuse

I get that Miz marks by their nature can't be too smart but goddamn son.

>>2629305
>audience video
You do realize audio recording from a phone is only close proximity right? The lowest jobbers get huge reactions on a phone.

>>2629307
>cheers = drawing

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>>2629312
You honestly think a heel champion is supposed to draw?

Al Snow said it best. A true heel is supposed to get the face over, who's supposed to be the draw. If a heel is being cheered, then he should be the draw or else he's wasting his potential.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHhWGe02EeI

You fucking mark.

>>2629315
All I heard during that Wrestlemania entrance was crickets.

>>2629329
>Al Snow

kek

>>2629315
>Did you not hear the endless stream of boos for the Miz?
No and I have headphones on, timestamp where the boos are if you will.

>>2629259
>>2629290
>>2629295
>he actually believes a pop is a reaction rather than something only babyfaces get

s. mark

Educate yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhgRkNftqc0

>>2629333
>smark knows more about the business than an actual wrestling trainer
>he thinks heels should be cheered and faces should be booed
>he thinks heels are draws

Aaaaand this is why WWE is drawing shit. They keep listening to smarks who don't know better.

>>2629334
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtJg-dsLs_8

The boos are thunderous.

>>2629335
>>2629341
The biggest accomplishment of Al Snow's career was being the butt of jokes in Foley's books.

>le "WWE books for the smarks" meme

Yeah they love that Reigns push!

>>2629348
SEE: >>2629321

>>2629321
He's been getting consistent boos throughout his 2016 run. He was put on the pre-show with Balor exactly because he gets booed.

When he got his ass kicked by Balor, Balor then got a thunderous pop. It's wrestling psychology 101.

If you got Punk to fight Cena at Wrestlemani and Punk isn't the face, you'd get shit like Reigns getting booed over Braun or Brock.

>>2629329
You're reinforcing the fact that the Miz was a heel who couldn't draw because he was garbage, He was simply a heel that wasn't relevant enough to make the face look good. Like every other low grade jobber heel.

>>2629354
So your poor audio recording is the right one?

Because even in Punk's heel run versus Mr. McMahon (the one where he elbowed a fan), he never got the pure unadulterated heat Miz gets on the daily.

>>2629367
A classic heel isn't supposed to draw. He's supposed to get the actual draws over.

The Attitude Era has ruined face drawing power by having them essentially go against other faces or heels that get cheered.

>He was simply a heel that wasn't relevant enough to make the face look good.

That's simply not true in light of how he just got into Raw's main event.

He also main evented Wrestlemania when Punk never did.

>>2629350
Ad hominem against Al Snow's career is irrelevant of the fact that you don't even know what heat, pop, face, or heel means.

>>2629368
Not even the guy who posted it anon.

But just for funsies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmD4nm5bK4M

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3on1g6

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3onaa4

>>2629360
The original point was before the Sandow stint which finally gave the Miz smark attention, he's had great material to work with recently but like I said he'll never be top tier after the joke that was his WWE title run, he's the ultimate midcarder and that's not necessarily a bad thing considering the IC title needs to stay relevant.

>>2629383
Just so I'm keeping up: I can't ad hominem your jobber husbando but you can strawman about me and the other anon, right?

>>2629387
I can clearly hear the boos.

>>2629380
You're referring to fans from the 70's etc but applying it to a 2017 fanbase, a huge demographic think heels are cool. I assume NWO kickstarted the trend

>>2629391
>The original point was before the Sandow stint which finally gave the Miz smark attention

He didn't need smark attention. Smarks noticing just now that he's actually an excellent heel that WWE has used consistently to try to get low-level talent over after his WWE championship run is irrelevant to the fact that he is viewed as an excellent heel that works the marks.

Meanwhile, Punk is starring in a reality show that Miz used to be on, so there's that.

>>2629392
>strawman

Someone on this thread literally claimed pop means any reaction.

>>2629402
>2017 wrestling is muh indies, muh work rate, muh spot monkey
>WWE adopts it
>WWE makes as much money as indie promotions

Poetry.

>>2629409
He's not out-and-out wrong as a "pop" can refer to the noise made from a crowd reaction.

>le indies boogeyman

WWE has been lifting from "indies" since the mid-80s.

>>2629402
Go watch a 4 Horsemen interview from JCP, you can see college kids wearing suits and flashing the handsign.

>>2629387
I'm trying to hear the boos from all 3 videos but it's just crowd ambience, call me biased if you like but I'm not hearing boos.

>>2629409
Heels were cool in the highest grossing WWE era too.

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>>2629433
Nah dude there weren't any indy guys or spot monkeys in The Attitude Era what are you talking about?

>>2629437
Wasn't really talking about that but okay

>this thread

And this is why the heel in current pro-wrestling is dead. We now only have spot monkeys who think being bad ass means they're heels.

They all want to be Triple H.

Jim Ross says it best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unb53Ohry6o

>>2629425
>"pop" can refer to the noise made from a crowd reaction.
>heels should be cheered and the draw should be booed
>why are ratings down?

Pffft.

>>2629380
>was
Not once have I said he isn't getting reactions recently. He's upped his game and creative have given him good material to work with.

This was only about the Miz being inferior to Punk anyway.

>>2629456
When he ended his championship run, he was being used as a heel for up-and-comers.

Even in what people view as his down time, he was perfecting his craft of how to be a heel. He came up with the stunt double idea for Mizdow and Mizdow ran with it.

Smarks just noticing it now because they all got excited that he "roasted" Daniel Bryan doesn't mean his ability didn't exist before.

>>2629446
There's no shortage of great heels outside WWE.

>>2629451
>strawmanning

*yawn*

>>2629456
>This was only about the Miz being inferior to Punk anyway
In terms of being a heel, Miz is miles away from Punk.

>>2629460
And yet these great heels promote draws that make indie promotion level money.

NJPW isn't even making a fraction of what WWE is making on its downtime or slump and it's considered highly profitable for a promotion.

NJPW is many, many times larger than your TNAs, ROHs, and other indie feds.

>>2629460
"Great" heels that are just bargain basement SCSAs or HHHs?

>>2629459
Ever stop to think that it's experience that improves your heel game?
Which is the case for most iconic heels. Some take longer than others to get the reactions they want. There's no definitive way to say the Miz was awful then became good or he was always this great heel even at a young age with little experience.

And smarks have been riding his cock since Mizdow

>>2629470
>a company predominantly based in Japan isn't making as much as an effective global monopoly

Really makes you think...

>every promotion has to be a threat to WWE or they're not doing well

There have been exactly 2 promotions in history that were competitors to post-territories WWE.

2.

>>2629474
>Ever stop to think that it's experience that improves your heel game?

Literally what I just said on that post.

>>2629472
nope

>I can only view wrestling through WWE's lens

18+ babby

>>2629476
>>2629482

I'd argue that WWE adopting the current indie spot monkey mentality is the reason why when their babyfaces face off with their heels, they get lukewarm to silent reactions.

>>2629463
Punk was a garbage heel though.
And the Miz is a garbage face.

>>2629485
You'd be wrong for doing so considering that crowds booing dull babyfaces in favour of skilled heels goes all the way back to Savage's IC Title win.

>I don't watch indies but here's my opinion

>>2629480
Shit I read two different posts simultaneously.

>>2629485

No, it is their shitty writing and booking, that prevents pretty much any face from getting over, no matter how talented it might be.

>>2629503
Nah man, obviously it's those damned indy spotmonkey marks who are to blame for Sheamus not being cheered after he beats up his opponent's ring announcer, steals their car and uses it as his toilet.

>>2629503
Vice versa for non-indie heels, I'm still buttmad about how they just dropped Rusev when he was the one, if not the biggest heels in the company as he came out in that tank.

Nvm he's Bulgarian again and back to irrelevance.

>>2629112
Punk has been gone for 3 years yet people are still talking about him. He also gets chants on almost a weekly basis. Miz has never remotely been over in his entire career.

>>2629901
A heel isn't supposed to be over.

>>2629503
>>2629511
So explain to me why the Rollins-Joe matches (an indie darling dream match) they've been giving away on PPV not drawing flies or getting a reaction? Why are people silent whenever Joe comes out?

>>2629139
GUARANTEED

REPLIES

You can get heel heat and not be a draw, Vickie Guerrero got enormous heat during her heel run. There was one tv segment where she was drowned out with boos. I don't remember a wrestler heel getting that kind of response (as a heel, roman/cena gets them all the time).

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The fans love Punk but backstage he's a prima donna.

The fans think the Miz is a prima donna but backstage everyone loves him.

>The Miz is one of the few wrestlers that Vince McMahon follows
>Indie darling Daniel Bryan admits that the Miz is a better talker than him (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfjW3AknA3Y)
>Daniel Bryan admits the Miz was right all along at Talking Smack (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/09/01/wwes-daniel-bryan-tells-espn-his-televised-fight-with-the-miz-was-real/?utm_term=.3e837126939f)
>Indie darling AJ Styles calls him one of the toughest cats he has ever worked with (http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2016/0327/609016/aj-styles-on-if-he-got-heat-for-knocking-out-miz-tooth/)
>Mick Foley says he could never make him the butt of a joke ever again
>Triple H of all people calls him the best on the mic in the current roster (https://www.sportskeeda.com/wwe/wwe-news-triple-h-praises-the-miz-calls-him-the-best-on-the-mic-in-the-current-roster)
>Indy darling Samoa Joe calls Miz an unsung talent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dgPbuD-rCY)

While Punk is burning bridges against HHH and Colt Cobana, the Miz is building bridges instead and getting into the prime of his wrestling shelf life.

>>2629983
Punk was a heel most of his wwe run.
Also did you forget that God awful face run for Miz?

>>2631329
That's what makes him a terrible or half-cocked heel. A heel people cheer.

At least Reign of Terror HHH actually has people cheering to get over Shovel Man.

>>2629490
You must have not seen his Straight Edge Society run, a.k.a. his best WWE stuff.

>>2631482
SES was a forgettable chapter in Punk's career.

People didn't give a shit.

>>2629139
Miz Ziggler >>> Punk Cena

>>2631575
It being a forgettable chapter is because of how they were booked, not the quality of Punk's worth. Remember him coming out dressed as Jeff Hardy? Or singing Happy Birthday to Rey Mysterio's daughter? Nuclear heat. It's not his fault that they were booked to get destroyed by fucking Big Show.

>>2631589
>bait.jpg

>>2631597
>muh booking

If it was that exciting, we would've had Summer of Punk levels of attention to SES.

>>2631612
Are you saying that he was given the same level of push during SES as the Summer of Punk? Beating John Cena vs. losing to Big Show 3 on 1.

>>2629112
>2629112
>Haitch and Mickey Gall doing god's work

>>2631627
What you really should be asking yourself is why he got a better level of push in Summer of Punk versus the level of push he got in SES.

I'll give you a hint. One of them had hotter crowds. One of them had more people giving a shit.

>>2629367
It's a shame that idiots like you think every heel that doesn't get nWo reactions is garbage. If you knew anything at all about wrestling and it's psychology you would see how great of a heel Miz really is. It's not an accident that he's been a consistent go to heel gate keeper for wwe for over a decade now. He might not be a legend like Hogan, but that doesn't mean he's automatically garbage. He's got all the tools of a natural heel and he's made the best of his role and has improved every single year he's been on the roster.

>>2629495
Is Balor a dull babyface? How about Seth? How will Braun fare if he turned babyface?

This is why Indie promotions can't compete with the WWE. They lack basic wrestling psychology.

>>2629425
>Go watch a 4 Horsemen interview from JCP, you can see college kids wearing suits and flashing the handsign.

If you expect every heel to be the Four Horsemen, Evolution, or the NWO, what you'll have more often than not are faces that get buried and heels that aren't fulfilling their full draw potential because they don't have a proper outlet of hatred.

Hence the shitty state of crowds in WWE at the moment where when you transition heels to faces, they end up not living up to their potential. They;re not "all the way over", as Stone Cold would say.

>>2629139
Longest reign in modern history.

Forgettable.

Not worth green texting.

>>2632281
Wrong guy. Sorry.

I agree with you.

>>2632281
>>2632284
No one gave a shit about a midcard world champion.

>>2632084
Balor wasn't an indy guy and neither of them got big as babyfaces.

>implying WWE has psychology

>>2632090
The larger point was that heel crowds always existed.

>>2632716
The even larger point is that the best heels put the face over instead of making him look weaker.

>>2632716
>Balor wasn't an indy guy and neither of them got big as babyfaces.

This isn't about indy or not indy. It's about indy psychology thinking that spotfest equals wrestling psychology, which leads to flippy shit matches with no story and without anything on the line because you have no idea how to book heels.