HEMA General - Historical European Martial Arts

To the guy from the last thread asking about going to two different clubs: yes, do it. Most of us are lucky if there's one decent club within an hour's drive; if you have ready access to two, you should definitely take advantage.

You mentioned they study different sources, so you might have to be careful about switching and staying in-system, but that's not a big deal - certainly not worth missing out over.

>>2608115
this!

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>>2607719
GUYS I HAVE A PLAN
I'm taking a break from HEMA as my local group, while very enthusiastic, is sub-par technically & physically.

I choose ONE thing. Then my plan is to do 20 hours (in class) PLUS (but not counting) an extra two at home (One study/theory, the other practice) per class.
>e.g. 1.5h salle time + 2 hours home practice of theory & physical x 2 classes pw = 3h pw salle time, with 4 hours study.
So I should be able to smash them out in 2 to 3 months.

Current local groups are:
>Kendo.
>Oly Fencing.

So that'd be 20h in Foil (French), 20h in Epee (French), and 20h in Sabre.
Then 20h in Kendo (shinai), and 20h in Kendo (kata).

For the unarmed HEMA I'll cross train with Judo & Greco-Roman for the time being. Maybe other stuff later on.

Thoughts? I'm already using "visualisation" and "film analysis" in my study section.

>>2608613
Do you want to smash them to prove you're a big guy?
What's in it for you?
Are you trying to crash the group with no survivors?
And after that, what's the next step in your master plan?

But honestly, why? To prove them they're doing no good to HEMA and you want to prove cross-training and physical conditioning is beneficial to HEMA? Then do it!
Do you want to prove you're superior to them and they're just shit? You're just an asshole then, don't do it!

>>2608623
>Do you want to smash them to prove you're a big guy?
For you...
>What's in it for you?
It would be extremely painful...
>Are you trying to crash the group with no survivors?
The fire rises...
>And after that, what's the next step in your master plan?
See question 3.
>But honestly, why? To prove them they're doing no good to HEMA and you want to prove cross-training and physical conditioning is beneficial to HEMA? Then do it!
Yes.
They sadly fell for the "Fencing/kendo are the diluted bastard sports of muh glorious Europeen battlefield deadly arts!" maymay.
I'm not going to argue with them, I just want to improve my training and they're all so self-limiting I have to go elsewhere.
I also hit the gym three times a week (goal for 2017 post-op is 1/2/3/4), and again these guys feel for the "Just fight more to get stronger/my superior speed" meme.
>Do you want to prove you're superior to them and they're just shit? You're just an asshole then, don't do it!
No. I just want to up my personal game. If there does come a day when I outgrow them, then I'll just thank them for their time and move on to found my own group elsewhere.

btw When I referred to "smashing" I meant my own personal training, as in to focus and practice hard.

>>2608643
I'm in the lucky situation that my club does free and controlled sparring a lot and everyone tries to improve as much as possible.
Sparring with other clubs, going to tournaments and getting input from workshops and try it out.
In the very beginning it was the same though, 'we're doing our own stuff and don't care about others, also fuck sparring'.

I sure as hell hope that your work will open their eyes and see that your self-improvement actually has an immense effect!

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>>2608659
>I sure as hell hope that your work will open their eyes and see that your self-improvement actually has an immense effect!
Thanks man.

>>2608613
Can't you try to make your club better? I did, it worked.

>>2608785
>Can't you try to make your club better? I did, it worked.
At this point, no.
Too much ego involved from the founder reading a handful of Christian Toblerone's books and now believing he's "owed" respect for his "research" (cut-paste wiktenauer).
Plus why teach myself foundational skills when I can learn from people who have decades of experience in person, then keep what is useful and discard what is useless.
I'm willing to open my mind and experience. They're not yet.

>>2608115
Thanks, I came here to repost my question. I asked another guy from my club if he'd be interested in coming with me and we'll probably go.

>>2608785
Not who you're replying to, but how did you do it?

>>2608613
>For the unarmed HEMA I'll cross train with Judo & Greco-Roman for the time being. Maybe other stuff later on.

You'd do good to check out some combatives. Sportified martial arts aren't that great in the context of armed fighting.

As for splitting your training over 5 weapons in my opinion it's a shitty plan. Get 100 hours in arming sword, establish a good base in that, then branch out. The humble arming sword is where all fencing stems from, or if you want to go a step further master baton fighting first, as that is the basis of every single handed weapon.

>>2608803
>why teach myself foundational skills
This is the stupidest thing I've read today.

Does anyone here have experience fighting with rapier & dagger against longsword (or vice versa)? Is parrying longsword blows with dagger a good idea at all most of the time? Just a curious armchair HEMAfag.

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What do you call an undead fencing master?
A lich-tenauer.

>>2608822
I'd say it depends on the kind blow, but mostly it would be a bad idea. Parrying a two handed blow with a dagger can be done if there's not much force behind it I think. I never tried though, so this is all hypothetical

>>2608850
I don't think force is an issue. A parrying dagger is basically 80% "strong", you need to catch a blade way up the tip for it to fail to parry. The problem in my opinion is a dagger is garbage at defending against cuts, because it requires crazy precision compared to a buckler.
I would usually favor the longsword in a single weapon duel, but add the dagger in the mix and you might have quite an advantage on someone with a longsword. I personally would try to parry with the rapier and counterattack with the dagger, however that can be risky, as going in ringen distance of a lonswordsman might get you tackled or disarmed as they have a free hand.

>>2608860
Those are all good points. I would like to try one day

>>2608860
I suppose what you said applies to a typical dagger that would normally be used with a rapier. Something like a alehouse dagger is almost like a small buckler + dagger, or even almost like a short basket hilted sword. That combined with a rapier might be pretty awesome against longsword or sword & buckler I imagine.
But with your typical fairly puny dagger my armchair intuition says that it should be only used if the longswordsman comes close and while the threat of the dagger stab is useful, primarily the rapier guy should fight like he would with a single rapier, so not keeping the dagger forward, standing sideways to the opponent for maximum reach and to minimize the area of the body that is presented to the opponent.

>>2608926
I'd also like to add that to me it's not completely obvious to me that a buckler would be a better off-hand with rapier when facing cutting swords, because while the dagger is inferior for parrying cuts, the offensive capabilities of dagger become more useful in that match-up considering that it compensates for rapier's weakness at close range and more so than in rapier & dagger vs rapier & dagger it is in the interest of the opponent to close in. With buckler the opponent can fight much more aggressively if he gets close.

>>2608926
Your typical parrying dagger often times has substantial hand protection to begin with, that's not the issue in my opinion. Additionally I wouldn't consider them puny, many were pretty sizable.
Honestly if you have a rapier and a short blade versus someone with a longsword I think it would be most advantageous to close the distance and go straight for dagger plays, not allowing the longswordsman to get a cut in, or alternatively wait for a cut to parry with the rapier and riposte with the offhand.

Really a longsword vs a rapier match up is bad in my personal opinion. Many people seem to believe the rapier has an advantage, but I really don't see things that way, considering you are severely limited in your lines of offense and the poor viability of the rapier in am Schwert plays.

>>2608860
>I don't think force is an issue
Then you are wrong. One of the tactics you can use with longsword vs rapier is the force you pack with the two handed weapon and it is an efficient tactic to strike heavy blows to places where you have a biomechanical disadvantage to parry. Scheitelhau, Zornhau to the upper left and Unterhau to the lower left have a good chance of hitting trough a one handed parry and a two handed parry is in order, this in turn leaves room for follow ups like Twerhau or Einlaufen.
Rapier (& dagger) has a slight range advantage and a slight speed advantage against the longsword, so if you maintain your distance and poke holes in the longsworder from there you are good. If you misjudge the distance (thats roughly a dick length) the longsworder can push you into the defense, and it is no fun defending against a heavier and two handed weapon.

Use this heavy techniques only in controlled sparring and with dudes that have sword control. Injury risk is high.

>>2608973
Oh I completely agree a rapier is a poor weapon versus a longsword, and not only because of the cutting capacity, but for the variability of am Schwert plays you have.
And while force MAY be a problem in a dagger parry, it most certainly will not be a problem, IF you catch the blade in the right place, hence why I consider precision the be the issue of importance.

>>2608983
>a rapier is a poor weapon versus a longsword,
no, it is not a poor weapon, its a fair match, you just need to fence it differently. Also, it is highly unlikely you will do much bindwork with a rapier, getting out of the bind is a wristflick for the rapier. What however is true that the longsword can push the rapier out of the line of attack or from some angles can cut right trough it.

>>2608994
>getting out of the bind is a wristflick for the rapier
Would you really want to get out of a bind, when there's a point aiming at your face though? I don't know how you do it, but whenever you're in a bind you want to either be presenting a threat to your opponent, or clearing that threat away from yourself. Literally the first contact exercise you do with a partner is parry-wind-bind-threaten.

>>2609017
Doesn't work like that with rapiers. What you describe is longsword work.

>>2609029
I know, my point is if you parry a rapier thrust you would follow the same steps, which will dissuade a rapier wielder from breaking the bind as they will have a blade in their face otherwise. They would be inclined to clear the blade away, giving the swordsman the possibility for many more followups than it is possible with a rapier.

>>2608969
>>2608983
>>2608994
To point out the elephant in the room: it's almost meaningless to compare longsword vs. rapier in the abstract because there's so much variation in both weapons. If we think longsword as some kind of bastard sword with hilt just enough for two hands, a simple crossguard, a blade of arming sword length or just slightly longer and rapier as in the manuals of Capo Ferro, Fabris or Alfieri with fully developed hilt and 42+ inch blade, I'd definitely place my bet on the rapier. But if the blade lengths are similar and longsword has some extra hand protection as well the rapierist doesn't have much advantages over the longsworsman - in absence of off-hand dagger/buckler at least.

>>2609041
You underestimate the rapiers thrusting abilities, same as it is shit to parry longsword blows with a rapier, it is bad to parry rapier trusts with a longsword.

>>2609056
So if two people fight, one of them happens to be with a rapier, the other with a longsword they simply don't parry because it's somehow "bad"? Are you fucking stupid?

>>2609072
No, don't get pushed in a defensive situation if possible. For the rapier this means at all cost mind your distance and attack from there, hands and arms are prime targets.
For the longsworder it means the opposite, close the distance whenever possible, attack with a forceful strike preferably to the left side and have a follow up ready.
When you get pushed in the defense, same game, rapier should parry and back off as fast as possible, longsword parry and close in.
>footwork footwork footwork

>>2609047
Point taken, but I relate to sparring experiences, so Danelli vs. Regenyei or Regenyei vs. Regenyei weapons.

>>2609104
>don't parry, but when you have to parry parry

Uhh... ok

>>2609116
Shouldn't you be giving your moms boyfriend a rimjob?

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>>2609120
Don't be salty, some people just can't help but be born stupid. You're an excellent example.

>>2609104
For that matter, Sword & buckler vs longsword is something where you can be very successful fencing defensively, parry riposte works great, however if you go in the offensive you are open for quick blows from the distance.

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>>2609116
>doesn't read the post
>comments

>>2608816
My club was one of those little clubs with little theory and exercises, and a lot of sparring with inadequate gear. The "I must get faster and/or stronger" instead of "I must improve my techniques" attitude.
I have to say I did noy it all by myself, I had the help of a friend. First, we got the right gear. The other guys started getting interested. Then, during the free sparring time, we started actually studying from the sources and trying the interpretations available online. Doing this I went from worst fencer of the club to a really good one, so, one by one, the other guys asked us to join us. The instructor wasn't really happy but, well, he just had to accept it or leave.

>>2609900
We're always studying techniques, but we spar very little (so we don't get to try and use them very often against a non-collaborative opponent) and it gets boring fast. Plus a lot of people come late or don't come at all. Frustrating

About to start HENS at a local Schola St George group. What's /asp/'s consensus on them and the Fiore technique?

>>2610209
HEMA, stupid auto correct...

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Can anyone tell me about s-guards that curve in the horizontal plane like in the pic (Style 12 in Oakeshott's groupings)?

Does it have a functional purpose or is it just for looks?

>>2608821
He means why try to learn them solo when he can pick them up from someone who actually knows his shit already, dumbass.

>>2608822
>Does anyone here have experience fighting with rapier & dagger against longsword?
Natch.

>Is parrying longsword blows with dagger a good idea at all most of the time?
Not as such. The dagger will withstand it, but typically you won't want to do it that way. Incoming cuts should be managed through use of distance, which is enabled by you having a range and speed advantage. If/when the dagger comes into play it will more likely be trapping after a longsword cut is effectively spent, to further tangle the opponent and let the rapier do its stuff unimpeded.

Most of the time you just lunge from out of cutting distance, though. Quick disengage to sneak around a rebat, maybe.

>>2608818
>as for splitting your training over 5 weapons in my opinion it's a shitty plan.
Agreed. But then I re-read anon's post.
That's why >>2608613 mentioned
>I choose ONE thing.
So I assume Anon mean's they'll focus only on one thing each time. Hence the twenty hours of per weapon multiplied by three, equalling sixty hours per weapon.
He's cross training dude, you don't need 100+ hours per weapon for cross training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MgBikgcWnY

However I'm going to have to pull you up on this:
>Get 100 hours in arming sword... The humble arming sword is where all fencing stems from
I'm sorry, but wtf are you talking about? Armingsword and buckler, or do you mean solo messer, or do you mean Italian sidesword?
>or if you want to go a step further master baton fighting first, as that is the basis of every single handed weapon.
Again, what? Baton as in French or Sicilian or Dog Brothers?
I'm going to assume you're not a native English speaker because I get the feeling a lot has been lost in translation here...

>>2608821
>This is the stupidest thing I've read today.
Sorry buddy, what you wrote in fact is.

>>2608838
>getout.jpg

>>2608822
>Does anyone here have experience fighting with rapier & dagger against longsword
Yes. Joseph Swetnam mixed with some Fabris and Thibulet.
> Is parrying longsword blows with dagger a good idea at all most of the time?
No. Never of the time.
with the rapier alone however: http://www.salvatorfabris.org/RapierParryingLongsword.shtml

>How do you parry then?
You double that shit up knigga. Either blocking with both simultaneously OR reinforcing the rapier with the dagger and guarding with said rapier.

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>>2608860
>>2608926
>>2608969
>>2608850
>I'd say it depends on the kind blow, but mostly it would be a bad idea.
Yep. Don't parry cuts.
Parrying a two handed blow with a dagger can be done if there's not much force behind it I think.
Correct, namely thrusts. How? Just do what Giganti and Fabris say.
>I never tried though, so this is all hypothetical.
I have. Against polearms too. When you miss it sucks.
As to the other Anon speaking about "Alehouse Daggers". Yes a short sword is good for parrying cuts, BUT ONLY if you stop it before it's in full force. Otherwise you can quite happily parry thrusts with a "normal" simple-side-ring dagger.

>>2612295
>http://www.salvatorfabris.org/RapierParryingLongsword.shtml
LONGSWORDFAGS BTFO
srs love you guys though, but stop thinking your waifu queen of weapons is katana tier.
t. amputee who's friends built a Guts style attachment so I could do longsword with them.

>>2608973
>Then you are wrong.
Look who's talking.
Thibulet, Alfrei, Silver, et al., even fucking Navarrez all note that only an idiot tries to parry/block a two handed weapon with one. Instead you just bait them, cavazio, then when they over carry you stab them with nothing but an extension of your arm in a contra-position like seconda or quarta.
Scary facing one? Yes. But if the rapier also has a dagger they stand an equal chance of wrecking the longsworder.
Go home and re-read your material before you start shooting your mouth off.

>>2609047
>To point out the elephant in the room: it's almost meaningless to compare longsword vs. rapier in the abstract because there's so much variation in both weapons.
Well, not really. They [archetypal longswords and rapiers] literally co-existed for about 100 years (especially in training salles). Function wise yes they differed. But there are manuals that specifically speak about ways to counter them.
BUT I do agree it's meaningless to compare WHICH IS BETTER because they both have their place

>>2610209
>About to start HENS at a local Schola St George group
Historical European Nads Striking? That's basically just Fiore.

>>2610998
>Does it have a functional purpose or is it just for looks?
It ovffers more protection when rotated on certain axies.
Plus is looks cool.

>>2612376
Historic European Hatred for Working Joints (HEHWJ) is Fiore, get your facts straight

>>2612376
>>2612682
So what, is Fiore "dirty fighting"or something?

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>>2612844
>I choose to symbolize my skill with the broken arms I carry. And I do not lie when I tell you that I have broken and dislocated many arms in my life.
He doesn't like arms.

>>2612363
>>Then you are wrong.
>Look who's talking.
>Thibulet, Alfrei, Silver, et al., even fucking Navarrez all note that only an idiot tries to parry/block a two handed weapon with one.
You are contradicting yourself anon.

>>2612363
>Thibulet
>Alfrei
Who are those suppose to be? non-english-ish names are too hard to remember properly or what?

>>2612844
Not dirty, just ungentle.

>>2613229
lol. I guess he got most of the right letters. Enough that I didn't notice he spelled them wrong until you pointed it out, at least.

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>>2612856
>>2613563
Interestingly enough, German schools saw it the same.

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>>2612363
>Thibulet, Alfrei,
>Go home and re-read your material before you start shooting your mouth off.

>>2613563
>lol. I guess he got most of the right letters. Enough that I didn't notice he spelled them wrong until you pointed it out, at least.
Yeah you're right, anyway, what's the best style for the two-handed sword? Fjord, Richtenure or Marerosso?

>>2613624
You'll notice he wrote two rapier masters's name wrong but Silver's right... Are you pondering what I am pondering?

>>2613762
It was three rapier masters, actually; he got Narvaez wrong too. That said, just to be pedantic, yuo cna reda ths sentanec dispeit teh fcat taht it'''s magnlled ot hlel nad kbac. Even with your more extreme example, it's still possible to figure out who you're talking about.

anyone here going fightcamp?

>>2614494
Nope. Out of curiosity, though, what sort of events do they have there, other than the longsword tournament?

>>2612363
This is why we need a Special Needs League in HEMA.

>>2615067
read the website famalam. steel longsword, steel saber and rapier. plastic longsword, s&b and saber. group tournament. and a bunch of lessons and shit

>>2617225
>read the website
cba; don't care that much

Is it synthetic S&B? Is it just not that popular in/around the UK?

>group tournament
? is that mixed weapons or more than two fighters?

Where do I find something on the basics of Ringen?
I've found this playlist for Lignitzer's techniques but I first need to get the basics down!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jnp6tKVpiY&list=PL3843BED5AAB1A743

>>2619262
Study Ott Jud or Fabian von Auerswald. The basics of Ringen are the very same of classic wrestling, so just grab a couple training manuals and get started

>>2619262
Ringschule Wroclaw has made DVD's on Ott and Auerswald.
They are great, the Wroclaw guys are ex oly wrestlers and put a lot of work and expirience in reconstruction.

>>2613762
>Are you pondering what I am pondering?
He's a disgusting Anglo-Fag?

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figure i may as well shill here.

i'm still working on this physics fencing game,

https://twitter.com/Fleech_dev?lang=en

basically my goal is allowing whatever movements you can create irl with a sword you can do in game with mouse and keyboard. so whatever hema you've picked up you can theoretically apply in game.

>>2622772
Interesting.
Can you make a Twerhau with this? It seems the wrists are missing which could make the endeavor a bit difficult?

>>2622772
so it's toribash with swords? neat, but could be tricky. the guy there is leading with his hands quite a bit; are you going to include fingers, so we can cut properly?

>>2622772
I got a guy in my class with the same footwork...

>>2624493
Hey, I can sympathize. I still have problems with not moving after the initial contact.

>>2622772
FUCK

You're doing something similar to what I'm trying but I've had to learn programming and stuff from scratch.

Might as well bin it now because this will probably get funding and I'll be accused as being a copycat. I'm shit so I HAVE to be first to get ANY traction or support (people are fickle), but by the time I get something even CLOSE to this I'll be in the pipeline to the shitter.

It's happened twice so far (the Italian Thokk gloves and hardening impact gel anyone?). Might as well move on to my next "great idea".

Fuck me lads, I just want a job were I don't feel like killing myself every other day.

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>>2623039

the system is set up in a way to encourage that kind of movement. you can even do sword grappling. i'm planning weapon disarms and full body grappling as well (no homo)

>>2624278

working on some more articulated hands and better less robotic footwork.

>>2617634
>Is it synthetic S&B? Is it just not that popular in/around the UK?
Synthetic Sword & Buckler is one of the options for the "eggleton cup". IIRC you can also choose synthetic longsword or synthetic arming sword. Medieval weapons with simple hilts basically.

My guess is that with a steel feder tournament, a steel saber, and a steel rapier, they don't have the manpower to run a steel s&b tournament for a small number of attendees. No, s&b is not that popular, just look at swordfish, it's an invitational only, because most people who do s&b are shit at it.

>is that mixed weapons or more than two fighters?
What do you think "group" means you stupid retard?

>>2625350
All I could think when he lopped off his head was a soundbite of
>"Psh, nothing personal kid..."

>>2625350
kek, that's pretty cool tbqh

Why are there so many witch-hunting Antifa fags in HEMA?

>>2628314
Are there? Over in the US or are you talking about EU?
I'm in the lucky situation that we just don't care about that shit.
Someone risks injuring others or himself or behaves like an asshole gets kicked out, simple as that

>>2628415
Mostly when I look around on Facebook. Americans mostly just have your run-of-the-mill SJWs, the Europeans(mostly Germans it seems) have communist anti-fa members.

I wonder if it's just that there happens to be a lot of them in Europe, or they're taking it up so they can bash the fash. Mostly wondering what's the draw.

Their public witch hunt against Anders Linnard was appalling.

>>2628433
Wtf are antifa-shits even doing at HEMA? I've had no problem in Austria (yet) and there where quite a few southern Germans (mostly Bavarians I guess) at the INDES-Fechtschule yesterday but everyone was cool.
I hope that's just a Facebook thing...

>witch hunt against Anders Linnard
What happened?

>>2628475
>>2628475
Anti-fa and SJWs accused him of being a racist and Nazi-sympathizer. Anders made a vid to clarify things and rebutt the claims.

https://youtu.be/SQv38dkG7Ng

Hopefully its Facebook only thing.

https://youtu.be/SQv38dkG7Ng

>https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/69w8wn/ringschule_wroclaw_ringen_dvds/
Anyone knows anything from the last few years?

>>2628314
Isn't HEMA basically the only martial art that teaches armed fighting from the start? Other mainstream MAs where weapons are thought are some asian MAs where you have to train years of hand-to-hand before you even get to touch a weapon. Considering Antifa is mostly spoiled millennials lacking any sort of patience, they sign up for whatever that makes them think they can beat "the nazis" with minimal effort.

>>2629686
>Isn't HEMA basically the only martial art that teaches armed fighting from the start?

kenjutsu? Escrima? several styles of stick and knife fighting?

>>2629790
Ah, okay, can't say I'm too informed with other MAs...

Idk, maybe HEMA just pulls in autistic retards...

>>2628433
Seems like an anglo/online problem to me. After a few years I haven't encountered anyone like that yet. I hope it stays that way and idiots won't start to politicize my hobby in real life

>>2629850
The fact that it revolves around european history is probably what draws out the antifa crowd. Since nazis are a part of euro history they fear they might be associated with them when do hema so they go on witch hunts to show everyone how un-nazi they are. Antifa fags in other MA don't have a reason to say anything so they are less vocal.

My theory anyway

>>2629968
True. Also doing asian MAs would be considered cultural appropriation according to them so that narrows their numbers down elsewhere.

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>>2631491
>>2629164
Hey guys, while you're bumping the thread try to add some value to it. Post a picture or ask a question or whatever. Empty posts are worse than offtopic.

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Does...does anyone practice bayonet?

>>2631996
No and I was really dissapointed when we didn't train bayonet during my military service. They said everyone would have a 2 week course on it but it never came.

Our ARs had mounts for bayonets and I know we had training bayonets but I guess our military prefers shooting people over stabbing them.

Fucking hell, Ringen is exhausting as fuck!
How are you guys doing that for a whole training session?

>>2632259
You get used to it. Just train more.

>>2632414
I plan on doing that but yesterday was really fucking hardcore.
Can't wait to get 5-6 people of our club into Ringen

>>2628433
Germany has a strong Antifa Movement, but what i gather from personal experience in a modern fencing Club + knowing 2 Hema guys its not Anitfa in Germany (Bavaria). Its Nerds and wellintentioned regular guys.

Basicly "refugees welcome" in an "Well, i would like other countries to take me in too, if i am fleeing from war." way. Not the SJW/Antifa way.

>>2629686
>Considering Antifa is mostly spoiled millennials lacking any sort of patience, they sign up for whatever that makes them think they can beat "the nazis" with minimal effort.

They are asocial loosers, that lack ANY willpower to train hard. Hence they use a few youtube clips, train them for a minute and thats it.

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>>2631996
>... does anyone practice bayonet?
Yes.
Jukendo then moved to HEMA.
Boring* but effective.
Beat's cavalry (friend's shoulders) lances and sabres, but hohleefuckaroo be careful doing bayonet vs. dismounted sabre.
It take you ONE missed attack and an aware sabreur and you will get wrecked.
>B-but my butt-stock-
A wooden club of 40cm vs 110cm of steel. Do the math.


*And by "boring" I mean limited in technique but what do you expect from a standardised military system?

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>Wearing armor (even if just mail under your shirt or something)* and carrying a shield on your back in civilian life is impractical, stupid and crazy which is why nobody ever did it
>Wearing an armpit length rapier that sticks out and bumps into everything is totally practical, sane and normal which is why it was common

*This is actually what a certain YouTuber does in this very day and age for self-defense purposes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwXpXg78VQA
(from 12:00 onward he explains)

>/pol/ debate
>weird youtube shit
I don't like where this thread is going...

I'm kinda new to HEMA and english is not my first language, so I have a noob question.
What is a "displacement"? Is it a
synonymous of "parry", or is it something different?

>>2631996
Did you go to Dijon? They had a cavalry vs infantry workshops, so I guess they must have a bayonet practice.

>>2634242
comes from the German Versetzten and is sort of a parry with the weapon, but is highly context sensitive.

>>2634288
P.S. on occasion certain master strikes where also called a Versetzen so it is not purely defensive.

>>2633433
Yes, one really is more practical than the other, you fucking sperg. Shields are heavy, and mail is uncomfortable. Rapiers are fairly light weight, and it's easy enough to mind where the tip swings. Besides, by the 17th century, civilian swords were as much if not more about fashion and status as about self defense.

>>2633433
Metatron is a fucking sperg and I can't stand him at all. However, why would you go on your life carrying a 10kg mailshirt or a 5kg shield believing you'll get stabbed? That's straight up paranoid. Swords on the otherhand could even be seen as a fashion statement, besides being a lot lighter and more advantageous in a self-defense situation. Also rapiers weren't commonly carried around, it was something like smallswords or whatever.

Also
>rapier
>120cm
>armpit height
Holy shit what kind of turbo manlet are you, even by medieval standards?

>>2635573
>what kind of turbo manlet are you
not him but maybe he's a cute girl

>>2635573
>rapiers weren't commonly carried around
What? Do you have a source for that. Sounds like bullshit.

>>2635798
>HEMA thread on 4chan
>cute grill
All the cute ones in HEMA are fucked in the head, and around here, they probably have a bigger cock than you do.

>>2635876
>All the cute ones in HEMA are fucked in the head
I'm not so sure about that, there are some cute AND nice ones!

>they probably have a bigger cock than you do
That's objectively true

>>2635943
Not on 4chan you idealist retard.

>>2635956
Eh, you're right. I was thinking of HEMA in general, sorry sempai

>>2633433
>>2635573
>Wearing armor (even if just mail under your shirt or something)* and carrying a shield on your back in civilian life is impractical, stupid and crazy which is why nobody ever did it
>However, why would you go on your life carrying a 10kg mailshirt or a 5kg shield believing you'll get stabbed? That's straight up paranoid.
It obviously depends on the time period but for instance, wearing a mail shirt was a fairly common thing in France in the late 16th century because of the civil war, open season on the huguenots and such... many nobles or other gentlemen never got out without a mail shirt.
Metatron is from Sicilia iirc, so maybe he has a more valid reason to be paranoid of getting stabbed but still...

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>>2635876
>All the cute ones in HEMA are fucked in the head
Can confirm.

>friend in my fencing group starts hanging around with qt girl he met at an open mat
>seems cool at first
>turns out to be crazy feminist
>also seems to exclusively date guys from the HEMA scene
We then tried to come up with names for somebody who only dates HEMA people while we were out drinking.

>>2635876
>All the cute ones in HEMA are fucked in the head, and around here, they probably have a bigger cock than you do.

That's total bullshit

>>2636498
absolutely, I don't think there are many cute girls doing HEMA but those I know are really sweet and nice

>>2631996
Friend does, but it's the Japanese version.
You might be able to get the Jūkendō guys to spar with you.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nlnWDgDs0I
>those fucking comments
fucking normies are going to ruin HEMA, right?

>>2634288
>>2634292
Thanks, it's starting making sense for me now

>>2637096
>sickles
>another neckbeard trains Mair

>>2607719
>HEMA
Isn't that a more sophisticated form of LARP

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>>2637445
Only if you wear faggy renaissance pants when you do it. Also, if you happen to wear faggy renaissance pants, then ffs do take a low Meyer style stance. A low Meyer will make you look cool and your butt look good, even when wearing faggy renaissance pants!
I hope that answers your question.

>>2637370
>still hating sickles
you're a buttqueen

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>>2637474
Mair is for nances! Sickles are a gimmick at best!

>>2637483
Sickles are fun. FUN!

>>2637474
I bet you also hate dussack.

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>>2637486
>FUN!

>>2637504
I guess you wanted to quote the sickle hater?
Because Dussack is based, even more fun than sickles

>>2637514
in this time and age? yes

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>>2637504
Fuck no, I love Dussack! Minimal gear, like a cup, a glove and a mask and the heavy leather dussacks. And you can really teach guys what a good defense is worth. I'd recommend that you tape your nipples when you fight buttnaked, hits really hurt like hell!

>>2637528
>I'd recommend that you tape your nipples when you fight buttnaked.
Did you try it?

>>2637533
Sure, thats why I tell you. We went so far to give tripple points for nipple shots.
Also nice are wristflick-slashes to the fatbelly, it gives those nice deep bruises that you'll feel for a fortnight.

>>2637547
Pics or it didn't happen. Show me your body anon.

>>2637560
Dude, that was some time ago, at a show called midnight brawl.

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>>2620316
I ordered the two Ott and the von Auerswald DVDs.
I'M FUCKING HYPED!

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>>2639124
Upload online pls

>>2639129
I was actually thinking about it, but Ringschule Worclaw deserves the money if the DVD's are actually that fucking good.
Maybe I'll upload a few 'teasers' if the Ringschule allows it.

>>2639124
>I ordered the two Ott and the von Auerswald DVDs.
HOW?

They're literally not responding to me and I've contacted them THREE SEPARATE TIMES?

>also those DVD's + Finlay's Book + 20 hours of any grappling style (Judo, Greco-Roman, et al.) = SNAP OR TAP NECKBEAR BELLY FAT!
>Sadly my legs are fucked up from being hit my a car years ago, STILL.

Is there any good GoPro-footage of high level HEMA fighting around? It's really popular in the Bohurt community and adds a lot to the coolness factor but the ones of HEMA I found were mostly short snippets of some amateurs playing around.

Like when you try to explain bohurt to someone, you just show them one of these videos: https://youtu.be/qZElG263Dd4

>>2639330
>They're literally not responding to me and I've contacted them THREE SEPARATE TIMES?
Same for me, I guess the mail address isn't used anymore and they haven't answered on facebook yet.

>HOW?
Tried 'Bloss - Hema Gear' on facebook (their shop is down so you need to order via facebook), some guys from [spoiler]reddit[/spoiler] told me they sell them.
They normally respond within the same day and the ordering itself works damn fine, paid yesterday and they sent the 3 DVDs within an hour.
Should reach me within the next 4-5 days.

They're a bit more expensive though, 20€ for Ott part 1 and 30€ for Ott part 2 and von Auerswald

I got the Auerswald DVD and one of the Ott dvd's but somehow I am too stupid to make webm extracts. Sorry guys.

>>2639434
I'm not familiar with any, but I don't think it would be very good, anyway. With just two people fighting, there's much less to see from a first-person perspective. You hardly see anything that the guy wearing it is doing, and it's not a great perspective on the other guy, either.

>>2639434
here is some polish saber: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z19hR04Ckb8
Wouldn't know for other disciplines, go pro's are not that common in HEMA

>>2639749
I can help.

What problems with the webms are you having?

If all else fails, you could send the dvds to me and I'll make the webms for you.

>>2640978
I got a ubuntu box, the original dvd's and have no plan how to convert them nor what tool to use. I'm not stupid, just very lazy.
I just wanted to make short snippets so people can judge by themselves if its worth it.

>>2641005
Haven't used Linux in awhile, but this should probably work.
>Download FFmpeg
>Get a GUI (like FFmpegYAG) since you probably don't want to have to enter all the commands from a terminal
>open video file from dvd in GUI
>set the start time and end time of the clip you want
>make webm
That's pretty much it, other than fiddling with the settings to make it look better.

>>2641068
ok thanks, will try that

>>2639330
Got a reply from Ringschule Wroclaw and they told me to order from Bloss

are those coldsteel plastic rondel daggers good? I've read a few times they're the best coldsteel has to offer

>>2642554
meh, the daggers are ok, but the best thing cs has to offer is their plastic buckler.

>>2642554
I think they're pretty good, yeah. If you really try to smash somebody with one it'll hurt, but at normal speeds they're fine.

The only issue is the ornamentation on the hilt; the little spiky bits look nice, but they aren't very comfortable. Not really a safety hazard, just painful. I cut them off of mine.

>>2642554
I use them for sparring with gorget, mask, cup and light gloves. I like them because they are not too wobbly to hook and lever and they have a smaller profile then padded daggers. Also, you may consider what >>2642955 said

>>2642554
Another option, if you don't want to get those, is to just use some rolled up newspaper. It's a bit fiddly getting the right balance of solidity and tip flex, but once you do, it's great; still a lot better than most of the synthetics out there. Plus, it's real cheap, and you don't have to worry about losing it.

>>2644704
yes, plus the newspaper is halfway save for stabbing with reasonable force, you still get a bruise but it is kinda tolerable, while wood and plastic really can fuck you up.

I've heard a few times the thing about friction tape on synthetics edges to improve the binding feeling.
Is friction tape the thing you put on tennis rackets handles? Does it work well?

>>2645147
Friction tape is that thing you put on the edge of a stair. You know, that scratchy black thing.

>>2645147
I put hockey tape on a few of our club's point of percussion for the purpose of making the blades stick during the bind. We use Rawlings swords, which are notorious for slipping and when they encounter Black Fencers, they just give way unless you have much better form than the BF user.

We found that the hockey tape did approximately dick to help with the bind sticking. However it is useful as a label for the PoP for newbies. If they can see the PoP while they're solo drilling, they become more aware of where to turn the sword and the distance they require for a proper strike.

So tape on your plastics can be useful. But not truly for the bind. If you want to work on binds with plastics, get the Black Fencer "Like Steel" swords.

>>2642554
Legit, the best Cold Steel has to offer is their bucklers. They're a perfect companion for steel and synthetic trainers. They're fucking hardcore.
But the Rondel is good. My club owns two so far, and we can spar using Fiore dagger play safely, provided we have masks and thin gloves. Jackets work for comfort with dagger sparring.

>>2645278
>tfw Australian
>tfw can't get cold steel bucklers for as cheap as people everywhere else can
>tfw Prime Minister is introducing a 10% import tax on all goods + GST

JUST

>>2612333
>amputee who's friends built a Guts style attachment so I could do longsword with them.
Pic?

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Hey guys, Im new to HEMA and loving every minute of it. I train with a couple of guys who are trying to form their own legitimate club. Things are moving.. slowly... And they only focus on Meyer's longsword.

Do you guys have any recs on where I can learn/research more sabre oriented stuff?

Also, any recs on a good steel sabre?

Is it true that McBane considered smallsword to be superior to broadsword in one-on-one duels?

>>2647334
>Do you guys have any recs on where I can learn/research more sabre oriented stuff?
ScholaGladiatoria/Matt Easton, he's a fucking pro!

>Also, any recs on a good steel sabre?
Danelli if you're rich and have the patience, Regenyei if you want the best for <300€ or the Cold Steel training saber if you want cheap, available and acceptable quality.

>>2647345
>Is it true that McBane considered smallsword to be superior to broadsword in one-on-one duels?
Yes. For all the meme reasons all smallsworders do.

Speaking of which, I'm starting Oly fencing soon to learn some foil and epee. Going to take what I learn and read some Girade, Labbat, and Lincour.
Wish me luck lads.

>>2647345
>Is it true that McBane considered smallsword to be superior to broadsword in one-on-one duels?
>>2647721 here.
If I get time, and if you'd like, I can use my copy and pick out some sentences where he says so and why.

>>2647723
That would be very much appreciated. McBane had experience in both weapons, was in a lot of duels and apparently was in general quite the badass so his word would carry more weight on the matter than your stereotypical saloon fencing smallsword fop's arm chair theories. Still I'm rather skeptical.

>>2647345
>>2647783
Did he tell how to fight with the small sword vs the saber?
got quotes?

Are these threads for oly fencing too?

>>2648100
No, but have you ever sparred with a HEMA practitioner?
I'm always interested in the advantages olympic fencers have regarding footwork

>>2647721
>Girade, Labbat, and Lincour.
Is it so hard to get names right around here? Because I can't believe that Girard, Labat and Liancour are actually hard to remember correctly for normal people who somehow care about their hobby.

Some of you guys doing sword and buckler?
What's the best non I.33 manual for that?

>>2648317
preferable from the german school

>>2648318
Afaik German school has only fragments of S&B besides the I.33. You could try Paulus Kal

>>2648317
>>2648318
Lignitzer is cool. Unfortunately there are only six plays.

>>2635573
You're the retard, son.

>rapiers weren't commonly carried around, it was something like smallswords or whatever.
Those aren't even contemporary swords, people absolutely did wear rapiers daily all the time for like a hundred and fifty years.

>120cm
Where did you even get that figure? Several masters such as Capoferro explicitly recommend armpit height as the proper proportionate length of a rapier for a given user.

>>2648623
ridiculously long rapiers where often carried along by servants and almost exclusively a British thing.
Modern interpretations of Capofero come to a different conclusion: http://guywindsor.net/blog/2015/07/size-matters-how-long-should-your-rapier-be/

>>2648623
> Several masters such as Capoferro explicitly recommend armpit height as the proper proportionate length of a rapier for a given user.
>160 cm
I should get into rapier.

>>2648646
In the comment section there's this link http://blog.subcaelo.net/ensis/capoferro-weapon-length/ where it is argued that armpit length is indeed what is meant.

Judging from the illustrations, I think Capoferro's rapiers are just a little bit shorter proportionally than in the manuals of Alfieri, Fabris and Giganti. But in all those four I think they look significantly longer than the rapiers most people fence with today and roughly armpit length.

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>>2648662
Such weapons existed for sure, but on average they where considerably shorter than armpit height.

Do they have a HEMA group in Louisville? I want to get into it but I can't find anything.

>>2648719
I don't know about hema but there is a hontai yoshin ryu group there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hontai_Y%C5%8Dshin-ry%C5%AB

How useful is HEMA from a fitness perspective? I'm looking for something that's entertaining while providing a measure of strenuous activity. I've been eating well and doing archery/cycling for three years now, but lately I've been looking for something new.

Also, is trying to start this when there aren't any clubs and the only local group has nothing but a Facebook page with the latest post stamped six years ago worth it?

>>2648623
>Where did you even get that figure?
Swetnam says "At least Four feet (122cm)", so he's one example.
Plus, y'know, >>2648674 most surviving example being about that long on average.
The English >>2648646 were known for having 130cm rapiers on the regular, plus they often only weight 1kg or so.
The Spanish often had surprisingly short ones (even if later sources said they used 5ft rapiers)
Also your armpit is not my armpit is not someone else armpit. And armpit for what? Pommel, same as longsword? Or cross guard?
Tom Leoni's thoughts on correct length:

>The most common mistakes beginning rapier students make:
>Mistake: Obsessing too much about ideal rapier length.
>Consequences: Illusion that technical or theoretical shortcomings are "the rapier’s fault," resulting in failure to address them.
>Correction: Get a well-balanced rapier that works for you and then give it no more thought. Masters such as Alfieri and Capoferro specify that a rapier should be proportionate to the height of the fencer - it should comfortably stand under the armpit. A good practical way to measure whether a rapier fits your proportions is this: stand it in front of you
>if the quillons are as high as your navel (Marcelli says "belt"), it’s a go. After this, think no more about it. Any mistakes you make with this sword are most likely the result of faulty techniques or imperfect training.

So for me, for the cross guard to reach my navel, it is indeed 120cm in total length.

>>2649533
>How useful is HEMA from a fitness perspective?
Better than nothing. You can crank it up to calisthenics level if you want. But given you're already probably good on the cardio, if you wanted strength just hit the gym. More bang for your buck in less time.
>I'm looking for something that's entertaining while providing a measure of strenuous activity.
It can be as hard or easy as you like.
>I've been eating well and doing archery/cycling for three years now, but lately I've been looking for something new.
You're already ahead of the standard HEMA practitioner.
>Also, is trying to start this when there aren't any clubs and the only local group has nothing but a Facebook page with the latest post stamped six years ago worth it?
No. You can try to contact them, but don't hold your breath.

>>2648378
>>2648567
thanks guys!

>>2648719
Check the fucking group finder. Also, which Louisville are you talking about?

>>2650482
Kentucky

>>2608822
Yes. If you are parrying a longsword blow with a dagger (which means he's already fucked up, since he should be using point work), your rapier had better already be embedded far into him because you are way too close.

>>2651597
>If

>>2650866
looks like you are in luck then mate, you got an ARMA chapter near you! The most autistic and sectarian HEMA group there is.

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>>2649991

>>2648317
>>2648378
>>2648567
How's P.H. Mair's Sword and Buckler?
>inb4 triggered Mair hater posts shit AGAIN

>>2654182
If you already know I.33 and ignore the text, Mair s&b is basically I.33.

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kek, that looks like a fight from a fucking manga
based hema

>>2649552
I appreciate the response.

What's rewarding about HEMA, then? Is it the tournaments? Is it reconnecting with one's historical interests?

>>2656086
You get good at it. suddenly you do can moves and techniques, got reaction, got precision, got speed, got power.
It kicks a hell lot more than sports fencing
You make a good fight
You win against a stronger kid.
You read something up in a 600 year old manual, train the fuck out of it and the you pull it successfully in a fight.
Pretty much everybody is nice and plays it fair, you get tons of bruises but always feel safe
Folks are great, and just weird enough so you don't stick out
Travel, see Europe, know bro tier people in every major city
Nerd into a manual, into an epoch, into history.

in no particular order

>>2656086
Well, I like swords

>>2656086
>What's rewarding about HEMA, then?
fighting with fucking swords and other fine shit

Should I take Rapier or Longsword?
Also is SCA really a joke? They offer classes near me but desu they seem more like roleplayers than actual HEMA instructors.

>>2658051
>Should I take Rapier or Longsword?
Both really cool, watch some YT sparring videos and decide yourself.

>Also is SCA really a joke?
Depends on the group and if you have actual HEMA clubs nearby or not.
They're better than nothing in most cases.

>>2658051
Let's say it like this

HEMA is like Krav Maga, you learn how to actually kill people as easily as possible. If sparring is done, it's not full force and emphasises technique.

Bohurt is like Boxing, the rules forbid certain techniques to allow a better competetive platform. Fights are always done at full force and training emphasises strength and endurance over technique.

SCA is like tag, can be fun when done with friends and there's probably some advanced techniques but shouldn't be taken too seriously.

>>2658132
>HEMA is like Krav Maga, you learn how to actually kill people as easily as possible

>Bohurt is like Boxing
>Fights are always done at full force and training emphasises strength and endurance over technique.

Have you done krav or boxing? Because it sounds like you haven't.

>>2658231
It's just a metaphor ding dong

Of course there is more to them than that. But on a larger picture it applies.

>>2653137
FLOTOFMUHSTRAWNG

>>2658132
You suck at analogies, please refrain from using them!

Just lost most respect for myself

>today
>county taekwondo contest
>3 fights I score most points
>win second place
>special guests are a team of korean chinks
>can berely speak english
>do a friendly match with a chink (woman)
>try pandae-dollyeo
>pandae-yop
>quickest ap-chagi
>she's too fast and dodges everythings
>kicked the shit out of me

>>>/sp/75948530

kek

>>2658479
>try pandae-dollyeo
>pandae-yop
>quickest ap-chagi
worst combo ever, dude

>>2658479
>>2658486
>>2658494
/asp/ is dead, mandrama killed it. deal with it

Is there a compendium of Sword and Buckler guards from Liegnitzer and Talhoffer?
From what I've read and seen it's a mixture of Liechtenauer longsword guards and I.33 wards, but is that really the case?

>>2658581
There are no illustrations on Lignitzer s&b, and iirc he doesn't mention any guard/ward.
I don't know about Talhoffer.

Btw I.33 and german longsword guards'n'wards work well, so don't worry.

>>2658479
>korean chinks
>berely speak english
>pandae-dollyeo
>pandae-yop
>ap-chagi
It's like when people talk about magic the gathering, and you don't know whether they're making shit up or if they're just that silly.

>>2657819
>fighting with fucking swords and other fine shit
If Hiro ever gave us our own board, this would be on the banner.

>>2658051
>Also is SCA really a joke?
No. Only to people who don't like it or aren't willing to give it a chance.
>They offer classes near me
Perfect, do some of their rapier and cut-and-thrust classes. They're basically HEMA just an earlier variant of it.
>but desu they seem more like roleplayers than actual HEMA instructors.
That would be correct, they're essentially "acting" as a "persona". The really good ones are basically living historians (i.e. that 1300's knight who quotes primary sources regarding rumours of the Black Death but in a way as though they were that person, also look at my turnshoes!). However I think SCA and LARP, while similar, are different enough to warrant separate categories.

>>2658132
>HEMA is literally jew-jitsu, you learn how to actually kill people as easily as possible.
Stop...
>If sparring is done, it's not full force and emphasises technique.
STOP!
>Bohurt is like shitty hug-fest MMA, the rules forbid every fundamental techniques to allow a better profitable platform. Fights are always done at full force and training emphasises strength and endurance over technique. Also their overbuilt armour and equipment are borderline LARP.
ftfy
>SCA is like tag, can be fun when done with friends and there's probably some advanced techniques but shouldn't be taken too seriously.
Only one you got even remotely close to right on.

I'd argue SCA is more like an actual historical Bohurt than ACL, HMB, or BoTN. i.e. Rene of Anjou.

>>2658581
>From what I've read and seen it's a mixture of Liechtenauer longsword guards and I.33 wards, but is that really the case?
Well... Yes, because it's part of a pedagogical system. Why rename stuff when it's all basically the same. Wait until you compare it to messer, it's literally the same.
But yes, there are shitloads of compendiums for german sword and buckler.

>>2659953
>But yes, there are shitloads of compendiums for german sword and buckler.
name some then

>>2659945
>SCA and LARP, while similar, are different enough to warrant separate categories
I've never LARPed, so I won't comment on the accuracy of that comparison, but I think this is very much the case with HEMA and SCA.

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>>2655580
True, some illustrations look really cool

>>2660367
DOOT

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>>2660378
>feels like I'm wearing nothing at all

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Medieval art is fun

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Master Liechtenauer, I'm Gladiatoria

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/hema/ needs more memes!

>>2660508
What is there in there?
Two daggers, spears/lances, quarterstaves, and longswords. A messer, poleaxe, halberd, what I assume is a buckler, and maybe an arming sword?

>>2659945
>>Bohurt is like shitty hug-fest MMA, the rules forbid every fundamental techniques to allow a better profitable platform. Fights are always done at full force and training emphasises strength and endurance over technique. Also their overbuilt armour and equipment are borderline LARP.
So thrusting = every fundamental technique ever? Honestly it's very fittin to compare bohurt to boxing where kicking and wrestling is forbidden.

Also it's hilarious how hema-people who claim that the repros used in bohurt are not historical enough, also use synthetic weapons and modern fencing masks in their sparring.

I agree that bohurt would be a lot cooler if proper technique was allowed but I don't see how it would be competetively viable while keeping the fights as intensive.

>>2660584
Yeah I think so, a fine armory!

>>2660624
>I agree that bohurt would be a lot cooler if proper technique was allowed but I don't see how it would be competetively viable while keeping the fights as intensive.
Melmet instead of helmet and flexible weapons might be worth a try

>>2660624
>So thrusting = every fundamental technique ever?
not the guy you respondet to, but in armored combat, that's basicaly it, yes. At least until poleaxes are involved.
Grappling is a good way to controll your opponent, but that won't end the fight in most cases.

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For those who are interested, found this on /r/wma. Apparently the first fencing manual published in Australia in 1859.
>hXXps://drive.google.com/file/d/0B90B1IqWDLowSm5ZUnE5Y2IwMzg/view

>>2660624
Have you ever read an armored fencing treatise? And to your second point, the reasoning is not that historical equipment should be used but historical methodology. It makes sense to protect yourself and your opponent in the best way available while attempting to understand and reproduce the historical methods used in duelling and combat.

>>2660825
>>2661510
I'm not denying that thrusting is very essential to actual armored combat, however keep in mind that while many of the manuscripts describe how to kill an armored opponent in reality this wasn't necessarily always the desired outcome. Someone who has spent a fortune on a suit of armour is probably more than willing to pay you some more to spare his life. Thrusting someone in the armpit is somewhat counterintuitive for this endgoal.

Now I'm not saying this would make modern Bohurt historically accurate, far from it. The rules are still modern and some modern equipment is used. But it is currently the best way of representing medieval armored combat in a competetive setting in regards to the strength, endurance and even technique in some ways.

>>2660785
Making the weapons flexible would honestly take away a lot of bohurt as a sport. I think it would just devolve essentially into olympic fencing in tinfoil-armor. The meta-game would still be modern technique based around the rules, rather than actual historical techniques. Using rigid blunt weapons forces the fighters to use actual armour.

>>2662709
>But it is currently the best way of representing medieval armored combat in a competetive setting in regards to the strength, endurance and even technique in some ways
See, this is where I disagree. At the technique part anyways. As soon as you can basically ignore your opponents weapon and the bullrush is the go-to technique, most of the rather relevant techniques simply die away and the dynamic of the fight totally changes. so in its core the problem is kinda like in oly fencing.
And don't get me wrong, I think Bohurt is a fun activity that requires a lot of athleticism to compete seriously, but to me it does rather represent a modern form of armored grappling then historical armored combat.

And yes, I am aware that in HEMA, there are also compromises for the sake of safety.

>>2662960
I see where you're coming from. I'd really like to try some proper armored hema but I don't know if there are any instructors for it who don scoff at anything bohurt related.

I'd see great potential in friendly hema-bohurt-tournaments and other collaborations. It would greatly benefit both arts and create new connection. The biggest obstacle is that some people on both sides would have to swallow their pride for it to work.

>>2607719
As a freindly bump and because someone said Japanese sword arts would be welcome here, I offier this video that recently surfaced of bokuto kendo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ALy3lhrgAQ

The group behind it apparently practices both shinkage ryu kenjutsu and modern kendo, I believe I see influences of both.

>>2663337
Isn't this not Jikishinkage-ryu rather than Shinkage-ryu though? Note that I didn't looked extensively at the video but Jikishinkage-ryu is known for its all white clothes, the fact that it's one of the styles that were instrumental in the creation of kendo and their sparring practices so...

>>2663627
No, this group, from what I can tell and also the entry on bokuto kendo in Dave Halls encyclopedia, this is associated with a particular dojo that teaches shinkage ryu, shin shin muso ryu iai and an amalgam of gendai budo.

How do I into pankration?

>>2663645
>a particular dojo that teaches shinkage ryu
The thing is the kanji aren't the same as (Yagyu) Shinkage-ryu and it's, to my knowledge, the only school still out there with such a name.

There is a Kage-ryu (影流) of course and then a Oishi Shinkage-ryu (大石神影流) which looks closer name-wise and a Nito Shinkage-ryu (大石神影流), but simply "Shinkage-ryu" (神影流) I hadn't saw it yet...

And yes, of course I'm wondering if it's legit or if the names are simply off and that the demonstration is something else entirely.

>>2663765
Don't bite,
Don't go for the eyes.

>>2663906
According the the encyclopedia of Japanese martial arts, this is an example of Ryushinkan budo founded by Nakajima Shohitsu circa 1953. he was a fourteenth generation successor of Shinkage ryu (apparently this line is spelled with the 神影 kanji) and the creator of shin shin muso ryu iai.

Their curriculum consists of Shinkage ryu, shin shin muso ryu, kendo, bokuto kendo, karatedo, and taijutsu.

There shinkage ryu link appears to be legitimate, though what line they stem from the encyclopedia doesn't say.

There were of course many many lines of the style separate from the mainline yagyu. Looking up those kanji there is a line of the shinkage ryu stemming from Kamizumi through Izu Muneharu that uses that spelling, as well as the jikishinkage ryu you reference. The lines appear to be unrelated.

>>2663765
Get into MMA

Or into gay orgies

Depends on what you're looking for.

>>2663002
>It would greatly benefit both arts and create new connection
What would bohurt contribute to HEMA? This would seem like a very one-way relationship.

There's some athleticism that's often lacking in HEMA, but that's nothing specific to bohurt; there are a ton of non-sword-related sports that could help fitness.

>>2663337
thats impressive skills there.

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anyone else love the long sword simply for the sick rotation fun it can do?

>>2663002
>I'd really like to try some proper armored hema but I don't know if there are any instructors for it who don scoff at anything bohurt related.
A good instructor wouldn't scoff at what is just one form of many tournament fighting styles.
>I'd see great potential in friendly hema-bohurt-tournaments and other collaborations.
I agree it would be fun, and maybe it'd help toughen up HEMA players. However regarding technique HEMA, even in armour, has nothing to gain from bohurt. HOWEVER if we wanted to learn a historical form of tournament fighting with tournament equipment, then of course yes.

>t. HEMA practioner of 8 years, SCAdian of 14. The meta-game is real.

>>2664822
I do a bit of canne, baton/bastone, and picked up some later Italian longsword/great sword.
I can confirm that rotating, spinning, and circles are super fun and audiences love them. All the German practitioners where I am are hardline "muh vor" so they end up starting in a sprinter like stance, the laziest of lazy vom tags, do kendo tier pop-and-drop, run past each other, then fist pump like an Oly fencer.
You can here the cricket.
But when us Italian/Iberian practitioners come in, well, see the above.

>bitches love my montante

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>>2664091
Besides growth in the community? Access to wide variety of armour that many bohurtists are open to borrow? Sharing rent for training halls? Getting rid of this ridiculous battle of egos whenever bohurt and hema get compared?

I'm not saying we have to start merging the sports or even having shared training sessions but there's an unnecessary rift between our arts that in the end is more harmful than not.

We all love swords and armours and shit, can't we spend more time concentrating on that?

>>2665145
>there's an unnecessary rift between our arts
>bohurt
>art

Oh, I'm sorry, was that unnecessary?

>>2665124
>A good instructor wouldn't scoff at what is just one form of many tournament fighting styles.
He probably wasn't a very good one, just the local one...
>I agree it would be fun, and maybe it'd help toughen up HEMA players. However regarding technique HEMA, even in armour, has nothing to gain from bohurt. HOWEVER if we wanted to learn a historical form of tournament fighting with tournament equipment, then of course yes.
It's true that beyond basic footwork, how to swing a sword and maybe some basic takedowns there's not much common technique. However, for a bohurtist anything done in armor counts as productive training and the footwork, distance-play, etc. wouldn't hurt either. And while we sure can't teach hema people any technique, bohurtists are surely more than happy to do some sparring in hema gear as well, not mention share some effective power- and endurence-workouts.

The end-product could very well be that we end up with stronger hema-fighters and more techically adept bohurt-fighters.

>>2665174
Was your post necessary?

While the techniques in bohurt are still in development due to it being a new sport, there's still techniques taught and practiced within the sport. I'm pretty sure this allows it to be called a Martial Art.

You can go have deeper discussions about what constitutes as an art with Meryl Streep.

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>>2665180
>bohurtists are surely more than happy to do some sparring in hema gear as well
Most bohurtists I met wouldn't try it

>>2665224
Yeah... I didn't say the fault was only in the hema community, some bohurt-fags should get over their egos as well.

All sparring is beneficial regardless of your art and declining a chance for it for reasons as petty as "i think my art is better than his" is fucking dumb.

>>2665180
>And while we sure can't teach hema people any [appropriate] technique
> [some] bohurtists are surely more than happy to do some sparring in hema gear as well
"Okay Jetvic, this is how you zwerch-"
"HIP THROW!"
"N-no Jetvic, if you just turn you hands this w-"
"THEN PUNCH SHIELD TO FACE?"
"Jetvic I've hit you, you're dead, this is longsword not-"
"PUSH KICK!"
*kicks Sergai in balls, punches him in the face caving his mask in, steps next to him and hip tosses on to his neck*

>>2662709
>actual armour
HMB armors are heavier than most historical armors

>>2665585
Hey if it works...

No but really though, bohurtists can spar without using full force or even straight up fence. We often do training in just gambeson and helmets for technique.

>>2665647
That's factually false. Armours used in bohurt vary generally from 0,8mm to 1,5mm depending on the steel and tempering, which is pretty close to what armours usually were. Remember that the armours during the middle ages greatly varied depending on the armoursmith, some were heavier, some lighter.

Helmets can for sure be a bit heavier by average, but even then not nothing that couldn't have existed.

Even gambesons aren't as thick as you'd, though this depends greatly on prefernece. Some like it more padded, for others it's like an autumn-jacket.

For reference, my set is around 25kg and mostly 1mm tempered spring steel, helmet being 3mm on top and 2mm on sides mild steel.

>>2632259
I run alot.

It gets easier as you better. Partly because you get fitter but mainly because you get better at letting your opponent do all the work.

I once sparred with a HMBfag. All I did was parry and riposte, and easily won.

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>>2664822
Longsword isn't the only thing that has rotation cuts.

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>>2666400
Good for you anon.

>>2607719
Need some quick advice guys.
Me and the club I'm in are starting shillelagh soon, and we already do 18th C Broadsword (Page, Wylde, McBane etc) and Quarterstaff (Silver and Swetnam)
Since a shillelagh is an evil beast, we're all gonna need some joint protection - elbows and knees. The club has some red dragon shin protectors we've been using for staff but I haven't been a massive fan and have heard some bad things.

What would you guys suggest for elbow/knee protection?

>>2669458
>Me and the club I'm in are starting shillelagh soon, and we already do 18th C Broadsword (Page, Wylde, McBane etc) and Quarterstaff (Silver and Swetnam)
So you're a typical Australian then?
wtf is up with you guys, it's like every single one of you does only that tiny irrelevant group of masters?

Regarding protection, just bite the bullet and don't target joints. I know it's hard, but protecting those areas enough while maintain any semblance of mobility is next to impossible.

Now go back to your colony where your best instructors still wear re-enactment gear as legitimate protection.

>>2669579
We're not australian, we're UK actually.

Although I have noticed the weirdness going on down in the colonies.

And really? Is there no protection you'd consider even adequate?

>>2669584
>Although I have noticed the weirdness going on down in the colonies.
It's sad, they want to be part of the Big Boys club but they're still about a decade-and-a-half behind. Sad.

>And really? Is there no protection you'd consider even adequate?
Look in to how the SCA armor their joints and do that.
Your problem is that if you're SPECIFICALLY TARGETING said joints (like in pretty much all stick fighting systems) there's nothing currently that will provide the amount of percussive protection and absorption you need to protect some of the most vulnerable parts of the body with any degree of certainty.
Again, just don't do joint targets in freeplay. Only in slow drills and solo practice imo.

>>2669602

As far as I can remember, the primary targets in shillelagh are head and forearms, so no direct targeting but accidents do happen and we don't want broken knees etc.
Would you consider the spes elbow protectors inadequate even for incidental blows?
I saw some glowing reviews for the neyman knee protectors for steel longsword sparring so figured they might be good enough.

We plan to pad the head of the stick like we do with the staffs to make it safer (although it does make them look very LARP-like, which is unfortunate.

>>2669619
>We plan to pad the head of the stick like we do with the staffs to make it safer
Or just use cane, rattan, lighter sticks? The Dog Brothers get by fine like that.

>the primary targets in shillelagh are head and forearms, so no direct targeting
Temples, jaw, hands, knees if you're wanting to fuck someone up. The whole forehead area was just because it was the cudgeling rule of bleeding a bit to indicate a lose, hence the first move often being to knock off your opponents hat.

>but accidents do happen and we don't want broken knees etc. Would you consider the spes elbow protectors inadequate even for incidental blows?
Ah, well for incidental blows I think they'll be fine.

I hope you guys are using the correct 4ft ones, not the later walkingstick systems that are essentially just cane fighting.

>>2669648
We use rattan for staff but it's cheaper and easier to get lengths of blackthorn from walking stick suppliers. Although they are not walking stick length, yes. We're having a bit of confusion over length/weighting but they're definitely not walking stick length.

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>>2669458
Ok, here is what I use for longsword, knee pro ultra flex pads and field hockey hard shin guards.
the overlap is pretty good and the shin guards wrap around the leg and down to the ankles.
You need to go full polyen with this combo to protect the outer side of the joints, so I made some wings out of vibram and sewed/fuzed it to the knee pads.

>>2607719
How big is the HEMA community currently?

>>2669684
I've seen a lot of people using similar, what do you have against the red dragons?
>>2669686
The HEMAA facebook group has around 12,000 members. The community is probably a fair bit bigger than that, considering the ARMA lads who don't really interact with us and a variety of other orphan clubs who I suspect exist all over the place.
There's no real way of accurately measuring it, unfortunately.

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>>2669684
Sorry, I meant Poleyn, you can see the side flaps here.
The combo works extremply well for longsword and takes even heavy hits from all steel weapons.

Can't really take a pic of my setup rights now, give me a few days.

Other than that,d look into ice hockey gear, especially knee and ellbow guards, they make a decent job but are bulky.

>>2669697
>I've seen a lot of people using similar, what do you have against the red dragons?
The side of the knee joint is not properly protected for a clean hit with a steel weapon. Thats a small fault, but chance adds up to statistics and there where some nasty hits.
You can pimp a red dragon easily and you should do if you go steel sparring.

Now I prefer the pad & guard combo because it fits better to my size, I can have the field hockey guard that its best. the knee pad is light but offers plenty of protection by hard plastic and shock absorbing with foam. They are easy to pimp, with a bit of vibram or kydex. It is lighter, less bulky and cheaper than good ice hockey gear, the only thing in the market that really offers bullet proof shin/knee guards of the shelf.

Like the gents in the high gothic had really good armor and understanding of bio-mechanics what they needed. Oddly enough that plastic diy Poleyn and shin guard combo really works best for me. Also seems to be popular with the Dutch.

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>>2669724
ha found it, gent on the right is wearing the dutch combo, rollhockey guards under socks and kneepad with modded flaps on the outside.

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>>2669728
here are some mods.

>>2669697
>The HEMAA facebook group has around 12,000 members
Even if you include the stragglers, HEMA is an exceptionally small community. Guess it makes it easier to be the best, eh?

>>2669697
>There's no real way of accurately measuring it, unfortunately.

I dream of a flash mob, dozens and hundreds of people who suddenly start sword fighting in the middle of a small historic European town. Epic shots of lads who fight it up the battlements and lassies fighting outside the taverns.

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Would you do catch as catch can if it were available?

>>2670006
no

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>>2670006
Hell yeah.

Here's a Mega of Catch wrestling sources. It's all out of copyright so download freely.

https://mega.nz/#F!JUtwxLCT!-9uyDLBL3z9mpj9hSyGbvw

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>>2669654
>We're having a bit of confusion over length/weighting but they're definitely not walking stick length.
Donald Walker & Allison Winn are the two most often quoted regarding stick length.
It's 4ft (120-122cm) and about as thick "As a man's thumb" consistently throughout he length. The specific grip you take makes a whole lot more sense.
HOWEVER we also know that the Irish liked fencing with two sticks, one short and a knobbly to parry with, and the regular one.
So if you want to do double stick, use a walking stick length one (90-100cm) AND a normal sized one (120cm).
The other advantage of the 120cm length is that you can go full on baton/bastone/shortstaff/longsword in about 0.01 seconds.

SOURCES:
https://hemamisfits.com/2015/02/03/what-is-irish-stick-fighting/

>>2669686
>How big is the HEMA community currently?
Big enough for me to make 20k a year teaching, selling gear, winning tournaments, and working towards doing it full time.
Feels good.

>>2669728
>Dutch Combo
It is funny how each country has little quirks and preferences with their kit.

>Italy, Iberia and Eastern Europe seem to have a boner for leather plastrons (The Spanish Vest or Polish Apron).
>America tends to cling to re-enactment gear and puffy pants.
>Britania is basically Red Dragon central.
>Australia is like a grenade went off and people just use whatever they can while avoiding doing full MEDIOCRE

What are the uniforms like in your country Anons?

>>2670006
>Would you do catch as catch can if it were available?
Yes.
>>2671178
Awesome. Thanks.

>>2671281
I'm in the US, and from what I've seen, clubs are usually either really into the reenactment outfits, or are really against them. The closest thing to a middle ground is some of the equipment made by vendors who have been around for a long time - sometimes pre-dating HEMA - and who use a more historical style. Like those leather gorgets with the metal studs. That stuff's sometimes grandfathered in, essentially, at the anti-reenactment clubs, but it seems grudging.

>>2674905
Oh come on, dude. Take the two minutes to formulate an actual post. There are even two real easy questions you can respond to.

>>2671233
Where do you live that permits that lifestyle?

>>2675117
Not Australia that's for sure.

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The DVDs from Ringschule Wroclaw are really damn good, I especially like Ott's wrestling 1+2.
All those 'games' to learn the basics and build strength but also the techniques themselves are done step by step so you could probably start teaching them.

>>2676426
Then pepper your angus for a bunch of "instructors" who have never done any wrestling or Judo before pretending they know what they're talking about!

>t. dude who visited a local club and watched as future spinal problems were liberally handed out

>>2676468
Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me.
I've done Judo and Aikido for some time so I at least know a few basics and can fall properly, but I still wouldn't instruct anyone without getting more experience and lots of controlled sparring.

>>2668300
>yo dawg i heard you like knifes, so we put a knife with your knife so you can cut while you cut