The great debate

One saved the company and one almost killed it

There's no debate

>Bret makes his return
>HBK retires
>Undertaker gets to main event WM
>That year's WM flops in buyrates
Probably would've been overkill if they also brought Kevin Nash

>>2286609
I wouldn't say Bret saved the company so much as made the guy who saved the company.

>>2286617
They saved that trump card for Punk

>>2286607
HBK always, shit hart was just a bitter whiney faggot then and still is now

>>2286625
Spoken like a true 14 year old

> hogan wrestled in tights his whole career
Kekekek

>>2286618
thats still far more than hbgay ever did for the company

Bret hand picked a guy to feud with who wound up saving the company. Hbgay despite having a major back injury and thinking it would be his last ever match still didn't want to job to the same guy and had to be threatened by Undercarder to finally lay down.

His second run he was never a major player for a consistent period of time, just used to put people over. He got one title reign for a month and that was it

>>2286607
The only people left on earth who don't think Hart is nothing more than the world's biggest crybaby are Canadian marks

>>2286629
stay bitter bret, reminder your brother was more talented than you

>>2286640
Muh flips

The only bret match you have ever seen was against vince and youve never watched owen

they were both crushing and burning with WWF until SCSA picked up and saved the company

>>2286643
>no argument
that's what I thought

>>2286607
Bret had a great look and intensity, and HBK is maybe the best in-ring performer ever.

>>2286648
You dont understand the buzzposts you spout
Muh flips is an argument
Saying you have obviously never watched their matches is an argument

More flips do not equal more talent you 12 year old pajeet

>>2286651
HBK's cartoon selling was a 6/10 at best
For this alone he is out of the best in ring performer runnings

>>2286658
nah

>>2286607
two manlets who almost tanked the company and were saved by the GOAT Austin

>>2286651
I don't know man.
I didn't liked his selling back then as I don't like Zigglers selling now wich he always is compared to.
I think the reason why HBK is sold as the best in Ring talent ever is because he is the guy both Vince and HHH like.
Current Talent put him over to be liked by the bosses.
Same with Ric Flair as the alltime goat.
The company tells you who are the Legends and you buy it or not.
Or do you guys think the HOF has anything to say besides who Vince liked and who not?

>>2286625
Which one of your MCMs did Bret BTFO?

>>2286761
the only
person bret is BTFO is himself for proving he's a senile fuck

>>2286765
Was it Samoa Joe?

And Bret already apologised for hurting your feelings, what more do you want?

>>2286756
His selling was fine. WWE has never said he was the best in-ring talent ever. He's never ever mentioned by WWE as being the GOAT. You people literally make things up.

>>2286785
>He's never ever mentioned by WWE as being the GOAT

http://www.wrestlingdvdnetwork.com/wwe-top-50-superstars-ranking-spoile/6904/

>#5 – The Rock
>#4 – Bret “The Hitman” Hart
>#3 – Stone Cold Steve Austin
>#2 – The Undertaker
>#1 – Shawn Michaels

some other highlights

>#23 – Hulk Hogan (he was in tna during this...lol)
>#7 – Ricky “The Dragon” Steamboat (love Ricky but 10 spots ahead of Flair? lol)
>#14 – “Macho Man” Randy Savage...#12 –Triple H

>>2286794
>>#2 – The Undertaker
>>#1 – Shawn Michaels

The one-two punch of WWE revisionist history right there. Genuinely surprised Austin is third instead of Triple H

>>2286794
never seen this so it had no effect on me or my opinion of HBK, who frankly I never liked but can't deny his in-ring skills

>>2286607
One killed a company the other helped it and then came back years later to put over talent and helpe make dimes
So hbk by a landslide GOAT

>>2286794
considering Steve saved Vince from bankruptcy and made him a billionaire how the fuck can he not be number 1

Oh, for fuck's sake. As a Bret fan.....can we please end this tired argument already?

Bret had better technical matches and did a better job of bringing a good match out of just about anyone. But his matches were also formulaic to a certain extent. He was also barely passable on the mic and had a bland personality for the most part. He wasn't a big draw.

HBK was better on the mic and had more exciting, more versatile matches, but was an insufferable cunt backstage that actively tried to hold others down. His selling was also over the top at times. He wasn't a big draw.

And both Bret AND Vince were wrong in the whole Screwjob mess.

They're basically EVEN. Can we KILL this argument once and for all PLEASE

Bret phoned it in half the time. Shawn always gave 100% whether it be a house show or on Superstars

>>2286873
>Shawn always gave 100%

>sandbagged Diesel at WM11 to make him look bad (or even worse, depending how you look at it) so he can get the belt sooner
>In the middle of a match threw a tantrum and buried Vader
>tantrum during the finish of the ladder rematch vs Razor at summerslam 95
>put in an ankle lock by Shamrock and he fucks around by having a lolipop in his mouth
>threw an autistic fit at Summerslam 2005 because he got out-politicked for the first time in his life

>>2286607

I can't believe this is still up for debate. Bret was being way too unreasonable. Refusing to drop the title knowing you were going to WCW at the height of the war? Anyone would have done what Based Vince did.

>>2286873
Literal lies.

>>2286849
Define the word 'helped'

>>2286905
But he wanted to drop the title anywhere and anytime but his home country

File: 1486803643886.gif (2MB, 400x300px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 400x300px

Bret is an irrational whiner.
Shawn is a cocksucker-turned-reborn Christian.
Both are good in the ring, and shit outside of the ring.

>>2286877
if hbgay didn't shit on vader he could have been a decent draw as a heel and certainly a bigger one than any other opponent Shawn feuded with that title run

If we're talking only about last century, then Bret.
But after his comeback HBK outshone everything any of the two did previously.

>>2286618
I wasnt referencing that. Now that you mention it. Bret saved the company twice.

>>2287045
Bret never lost clean to Stone Cold once

File: Cat Face.jpg (26KB, 268x265px) Image search: [Google]

26KB, 268x265px

For a while there I was on the side of HBK and Vince when Bret refused to drop the belt in Canada as for me it comes down to the fact that he was a contracted employee and you HAVE to do whatever Vince says. If he says drop the belt, you drop it, that's your job. But then I heard Bret had creative control in the last 30 days of his contract. When I heard this I instantly flipped, because that's what he was owed in his contract. In Vince didn't like it, he should have given it to Bret.

>>2286607
Last time they wrestled, Shaun won. Therefore, he's the better wrestler.

File: cfd557ce32a177945c03ca0aa4a018b2.jpg (54KB, 720x540px) Image search: [Google]

54KB, 720x540px

>Owen was better than Bret

Name one memorable Owen Hart promo

>>2287060
Name ONE memorable Bret moment that wasn't the screw job.

>>2287060
>I kicked your leg out of your leg

>>2287060
"I just broke your neck"

There shouldn't be any debate. Bret was actually good.

>>2286607

these 2 and undertaker were probably my favorites to watch as a kid and im not gonna bother trying to separate them for playground points.

at first i hated shawn, for obvious reasons, then it became like a love-to-hate thing, then i couldn't help but admire his stunts and grit. it probably all played out according to keikaku, i was the perfect mark, but we are talking like 5-10y/o me.

>>2287047
Do you really think that iconic moment of Austin's bleeding face while in the Sharpshooter, would have meant as much if he somehow ended up winning the match after that?

That moment told the story of someone who had no choice but to lose to the better wrestler.....but who also lost on his own terms and refused to submit to pain. That could have been fucking Scotty 2 Hotty losing a match like that, and the fans would have loved him even more and had a newfound respect for him for not submitting (see: Jeff Hardy vs. Undertaker, ladder match)

Austin didn't need to beat Bret around that time (although yes, a final victory over Bret would have been great to close off the feud). If anything, Austin losing to Bret is what goaded the fans to support him even more

If there's one thing WWE has taught us, its that having someone win matches doesn't necessarily = putting them over with the fans

File: 1486160009286.gif (2MB, 189x200px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 189x200px

>>2286618

Bret saved the WWF/E many times, sometimes without even knowing

After Vince was paying big money to Hogan to main event, Bret became his new hotness when times were down and Bret was willing to work for cheap so Vince could get his shit back together.

It's funny how Scott Hall hated Bret and called him the "400,000 dollar Champion" because Bret never asked for more money. It's sad that Vince would suck the Kliqs dick, but they were the ones who always bled the company dry

Later on Bret would get back into the driver's seat when Project Lex failed, Project Diesel failed and then Project HBK failed. Then Bret hand picked Austin and he becomes not only the future of the company, but the key to what made Vince a BILLIONAIRE.

Add that and Stu employed Rocky Johnson during his tough early years and maybe the Hart's indirectly helped with the Rock too. (It's a stretch)

Bret Hart. GOAT.

>>2286756
The Kliq cost the WWF tons of money, would give them all kinds of problems and drama, 2 of them left and made the rival company almost KILL Vince's.

And Vince still puts them over with HHH. If there is any proof that Vince had sex with all of them I don't know what is

>>2286798
Give it a couple of years

HHH is going to make himself #1 with Shawn being #2, Scott Hall being #3 and Kevin Nash being #4

Already we see how the "Power Ratings" are being controlled by HHH in the video games. If you looked at the whole 82 character roster, would it shock you that HHH is the 2nd most powerful under Undertaker in it? Imagine....

>>2286873
Hogan called, he wants his selling back Shawn.

>>2287065
Not only a great promo, but a GOAT promo to money

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdb4B9kosxY

Go to bed, you will never win.

>>2286862
My interpretation? Longevity in the company as well as unbroken dedication to the company, are factors. This would certainly explain why Hogan was placed at number twenty-fuckin'-three.

Out of that top 5, who gave Vince the most years of their career to help the company, with the least amount of problems in terms of deserting him? HBK and Taker.

Meanwhile....we all know about Bret and the Screwjob. And yes, Rock and Austin were clearly bigger stars......but one retired when he was still very profitable and also gave Vince issues ("taking his ball and going home"), and the other up and left to make Hollywood his main focus.

The only surprise to me is that Bret isn't below Rock.

>>2288420
>the guy who's been in the company as an active wrestler longer than everyone except for Taker is ranked 2nd

Wow fuck Triple H and his ego in video games

File: 1465927410334.gif (1MB, 312x176px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 312x176px

>>2288516
I remember it made news when Bret Hart on his podcast learned that in WWE 2K5 or 6 that HHH was Power Rated above everyone (with a 98/100 rating) and Bret was like 87 and how "Triple H can't even lace my boots" and somehow he got FLAK for that. If anyone is in the wrong, it's Gay Hunter

File: donald-trump-memes-gop-candidate-ftr.jpg (89KB, 600x699px) Image search: [Google]

89KB, 600x699px

>>2286877

>put in an ankle lock by Shamrock and he fucks around by having a lolipop in his mouth

Anyone got a clip of this?

>>2286877
this.

Neither of them were exactly monster draws but Bret was at least a class act who groomed other talent such as Austin and Shamrock whereas HBK nearly ran the company out of business and would actively destroy talent.

>>2286905
>He had the creative control in his contract to refuse
>He was willing to and wanted to drop the title to Austin
>He was even willing to drop the title to shawn but shawn decided to be a disrespectful twat as usual
>He promised to drop the title the next night
>Vince agreed to this
>vince was coaxed into the screwjob by gaytch and hbgay
>Bischoff didn't want him bringing the title to wcw because of legal ramifications
>He was still contracted with wwf for weeks after survivor series. He couldn't just leave.
>Bret would never have done anything like that in a million years anyway (even though he wouldn't be able to even if he wanted to)
>Bret's friends and family still worked for vince

I don't even blame vince as much as I blame the kliq pushing vince into it. Every member of the kliq was a cancer on wrestling.

>>2288576
Shawn put over Razor, Diesel, Sid, Bret, Mankind, Dean Douglas and Owen when he took the ezuguri of death

Daily reminder that HBcucK would have singlehandedly killed the company if it wasn't for SCSA

Daily reminder that Bret Hart is the GOAT

File: x3fy4p.jpg (37KB, 750x341px) Image search: [Google]

37KB, 750x341px

>>2288603

>Shawn Put over Razor/Diesel
Kliq Rules rule idiot.
>Sid
Kevin Nash/Kliq said in his interview with Kayfabe Commentary they knew the guy would never go anywhere so he was never an issue
>Bret
The one time in 1992 when he was at risk of getting fired when Sherri left his side

Shawn is a legend of putting NO ONE over

First IC title run. Loses it because Marty was going to beat him up (again) if he refused

Second IC title run. Didn't lose it clean due to being caught positive for steroids

Third IC title run. Didn't lose it clean due for "being beat up", forfeits it (I never understood why this was a reason, but we really know why now, see later)

First Tag Team run, didn't loose it clean and forfeited it due to "drama" with Diesel

Second Tag Team run, didn't loose it clean due to "controversy"

Third Tag Team run, due to having a fight with Bret and thus refusing to work the next night and was suspended and thus the titles too were never lost clean, just forfeited (Seeing a trend yet with him?)

Forth Tag Team run, didn't even lose the titles, they were in a Battle Royal and lost it due to other people going over

Fifth Tag Team run.... THEY FINALLY LOST CLEAN

Only European Championship run, lies down for HHH and make a joke of the match and belt

First World Title run, all kinds of drama with chairs and Sid

Second World Title run, "I lost my smile" forfeits the belt.

Third World Title run, Undertaker was going to beat him up if he didn't put Austin over

Forth World Title run, lies down for HHH again, this time because now he is the future boss of the company.

That piece of shit fag never did a job for anyone, unless it was a blow job for Vince, it's how he was still on the payroll for 4 years straight without ever doing anything, no one gets that kinda stroke.

>>2286618
Bret never really put Austin over. Not once did he let Austin win a match in their feud.

>>2286873

Everyone knows Shawn phoned it in repeatedly. You're a mark if you think otherwise.

>>2286873
Hello Mr. Hickenbottom

>>2286952
Ironically Bret recently buried Vader in a shoot interview, basically calling him a sloppy worker and saying he smelled like shit. At least Shawn never publically humiliated Vader like that.

It seems like Bret developed into a sad, bitter old man while Shawn became a cool older guy who does classy movies.

>>2288829
the finish of wm13 got austin over more than a win would have

>>2286607

As much as I hate Hogan, he is deserves the title "Mr. Wrestlemania" over HBK any day. Hogan main evented 8 Wrestlemanias in a row.

Shawn had a great match with Razor at WM10 (which RAZOR went over not Shawn), not main event

Shawn had a terrible match in WM11, not main event

Shawn had a great match with Bret at WM12 (and that was not a one man match), main event

Didn't even show up for WM13 because he "Lost his Smile" (Mr. Wrestlemania INDEED)

Undertaker had to threaten to beat the shit out of him if he didn't put Austin over at WM14, main event

Absent for WM15, WM16, WM17, WM18.

Had a terrible match with Jericho with had a lot of real life heat with Jericho at WM19, not main event

Benoit had to beat the Kliq and get his moment at WM20, main event

The Shawn vs Angle match was great but Kurt Angle is no slouche at WM21, Kurt went over, not main event

At WM22 he had sex with Vince, not main event

WM23 was all John Cena, Shawn was in the main event but was he really even there? Main Event

Sent to kill an old man at WM24. Not main event

WM25 Jesus Shawn vs Devil Undertaker. Not main event

WM26 Loses to Taker. It's over

He was in 14 Wrestlemanias, only main evented 5 of those. Hogan did more. Undertaker and Kane have been in more Wrestlemania then Shawn. Heck Shawn is tied with The Rock and John Cena.

Man fuck this guy

>>2288850
You are an idiot. Shawn not only did that to Vader but tried to get him fired

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUZizMxgSlY

>>2288850
Why must you turn /asp/ into a house of lies.

HBK pioneered the Ladder match. Bret couldn't have come up with anything original like that if he tried.

>>2288850
>Shawn never publically humiliated Vader like that

Are you serious

He legit yelled at him AND legit kicked him for a simple botch, during a televised match in front of a crowd of thousands

And don't give me "most of the fans thought it was part of the match at the time" because that's a shit excuse for a shit move by a shit human being

I give Bret wrong for unnecessarily shit-talking Vader as well but Michaels is NO better

>>2288891
except it was Bret who brought the idea of a ladder match to Vince, only to have Shawn steal it

Hbgay actually had to politick because Bret cucked him with sunny

>>2288901

God, I really didn't want to believe Shawn's "Sunny days" comment at the time, but since Bret admitted in his book to cheating on his 1st wife while on the road.....Sunny probably was a target of the Hitman

>>2288898
>Believing the lies of the Shitman over well-documented and verified piece of WWF history backed up by the company itself

>>2288923
>(((the company)))

>>2288891
>HBK pioneered the ladder match
18+

>>2288882
His Mania match with Jericho at 19 is terrific.

Bret is a boring fuck who can't pull his ego out of his ass

I remember reading a forum post that (imo) accurately summed up the entire Bret/Shawn rivalry. Something about how Bret used to be Vince's favorite "son" and later hating Shawn for being Vince's new, younger, favorite "son", despite being the less responsible, reckless one. And how younger brother HBK was always trying to impress older brother Bret, to the point where it eventually formed into a rivalry after he realized he wasn't earning older brother's respect.

When I read that post, I immediately remembered Shawn's line the night when Bret finally returned to Raw: "You know, Bret.....I always respected you......I just felt like you never respected me".

Now take that father/two sons scenario....and imagine the father not only telling the older son to leave his home, but also deceiving him to take a prized possession that was first given to him, to give to the younger, irresponsible son. Of course the older brother's gonna become bitter after that......

>>2289073
>Both of Vince's sons end up being complete failures
>Vince picks up some kid from ECW and makes him his new son and replaces both Bret and Shawn

>>2288891
I think at this point this guy is trolling.

>>2288909
Sunny actually admitted that she slept with a bunch of guys but not Bret Hart. She even shocked the world with an interview to admit after all these years that she slept with Davey Boy but NOT Bret

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6WnT7GEnbc

File: 47b10ce10cc6f556885e78001716ca6c.jpg (30KB, 480x473px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 480x473px

did they?

>>2286651
>HBK is maybe the best in-ring performer ever.

I feel like people who believe this are also the people who think Seth Rollins is currently the best wrestler in the world and shit.

>>2289207
I just don't like that he is like 2 different people

Like when he talks about himself pre-2002 and all the bad shit he did, he acts like that is a different people and he can't be responsible for that.

Modern Shawn is soooooo religious that he ain't even real anymore. Bret can call him a cock sucker and he would just smile and hug him.

>>2289306
You can tell he still has some asshole in him. The Hogan match where he oversold the entire time is a great example. Yeah Hogan did a dick move, but to respond by doing that was also kinda dickish.

>>2290256
It's still an accomplishment in its own right that he was able to work Hogan into a shoot in that match. You can see how visibly angry Hogan was about the whole thing.

>>2290474
Being proud and impressed that someone can be a greater dick is nothing to put on a trophy.

Bret Hart still the GOAT.

>>2290474
That's a personal accomplishment, not one for the company or fans.

Even then it's hardly something to brag about.