Why doesn't wing chun actually work?

>>1940137
can't generate enough power compare to other fighting styles, and its range is close to clinch range which grapplers love. Even other striking styles like boxing and Muay Thai have clinching embedded into their sport and know how to at least break or launch strikes from there (dirty box clinch for boxing and the plum for Muay Thai)

WT is left in this weird grey area where they get out powered by other strikers and then their entire range is nearly nulled against grapplers.

>>1940137
because you will be easiily taken down and submitted because of grappling and leverage

>>1940137
Everybody wing chun tonight

Of course it works.

>>1940137
Saying it doesn't work is a stretch to be honest.

Traditional Chinese martial arts are difficult to pin down. There is a lot of uncertainty in why the moves that appear so impractical to fighting are learned so rigorously.

The only thing we know for sure is from fighters like Bruce Lee, ip man, and some of ip mans disciples. Wing chun is better the purer it is, and lacks the quality control judo, bjj, kickboxing and Muay Thai has because those arts fight and spar way more. Plus you can make more money fighting pro with those than you can with wing chun.

I wouldn't say it doesn't work, I would say there are some serious quality control issues and lack of understanding in techniques. Many Chinese arts are also very ornate in nature and lack the kind of practical fighting that fighting arts should have.

There is also the issue of where power comes from in Chinese martial arts. The Chinese believe in qi, and mix the concept with their fighting movements. Something like that can only be tested practically to understand why it's done.

I don't necessarily believe traditional Chinese arts are as a whole useless. But I believe teaching wing chun as a fighting art with no fighting experience is the trend for most wing chun "fighters". This coming from a guy who does tai chi.

>>1940955
lol, bruce lee abandoned wing chun when he got into literally one fight and realized it didnt work.

>>1940955
>Many Chinese arts are also very ornate in nature and lack the kind of practical fighting that fighting arts should have.

what did the resident /asp/retard mean by this?

>>1941025
I don't think he abandoned it. Like any fighter he evolved. Plus the guy he was fighting was internals heavy.

>>1941164
His fighting was non existant. His only documented fight was an unrecorded street fight where both sides say their guy won. Everything else was myth perpetuated by movies.

>>1940137
Cargo Cult Martial Arts. You know Cargo Cults? Bunch of primitive natives in New Guinea, remember how airplanes used to come and bring spam back in WWII, and now they cut down runways and go out and wave flags, but the Airplanes never come.

It's the same way with Wing Chun. The basic insights of it, attacking/controlling the center line, attacking and defending in the same motion are universal enough and practical enough that I can see the core of a once practical martial art in there. But at this point it's not just been watered down, but basically reconstructed by people who have no idea how to fight.

>>1940955
>Wing chun is better the purer it is
Exactly the opposite. The best and most serious Wing Chun gyms are ones that have abandoned lineage a sign of quality, and instead focused on experimentation and adapting to reality.

>>1940137
Easy answer: Guns
Hard answer: By the time you get close enough to do Wing Chun on the other guy he probably have enough CQC to take you out
Real answer: Martial "art" is a meme. That's why Sanda came around

>>1942491
>Easy answer: Guns
Fucking, this sort of shit only feeds TMA delusions. You know that the earliest mention of Wing Chun takes place after the Taiping Rebellion? Even if you go with the mythological origins, it's 1700. Hundreds of years after the development of Guns in china.

>>1940137
I Spent 5 years in wing chun. Five wasted years learning to "fight". Trapping doesn't work because that's assuming your opponent is a fucking wooden dummy and won't move his head or body while you do your fancy technique. All the person has to do is flail his arms and all your trapping goes to shit.

Oh, I haven't even mentioned if your opponent grapples you. Now what? You don't have a single wrestling or anti grappling move in your arsenal except "now you've entered my deadly strike range" which you've never tried and only have been told is 100 percent effective on passive human huggers.

I haven't even touched on the Lack of dynamic foot work or head movement, the use of feignts, out fighting, clinching, and any strike that is NOT a straight line attack like hooks or round kicks.


After a year of Muay Thai and bjj I learned more about fighting than I ever did at wing chun. It's sad really.

>>1941228
I'm there are at least some other people that realize Bruce was not a fighter. Ip Man didn't even train his hafu ass until after he got famous.

>>1940137
Because it was invented by a woman.

/thread

>>1941025
Nope, he's abandon WT because ip Man are a terrible teacher and Bruce is so arrogant too learn from other disciples , 80% off he's "JKD" is wt with other names, "I developed this new martial art, I am a genius "

>>1940137
Hum....
is a good martial art? Is amazing
Have good teachers? No, even ip man are a shit teacher, I only know 2 maybe 3 good wing chun teachers in the entirely planet.

The art surfer from bad methodology, incomplete system, lack off sparring (only a few gyms make sparring and this 70% is a bad kickboxing) and the art is extremely subjective, a young boy how don't have fight experience never understand

>>1941228
>>1945610
All of yip mans student fought retard and literally not one person said Wong jack man won

>lying this openly

>>1947094
But this leads to the question of why and how have these antiquitated methods of fighting continue to perpetuate as a viable form of self defense?

Granted there are surprising nuggets in some Chinese arts but as a whole they aren't meant for modern day fighting. So why advertise that these methods are sound fundamental techniques? Don't get me wrong I do enjoy the aesthetic and philosophy of Chinese arts, but quite simply the Chinese arts are not a viable means of fighting in this day and age.

>>1947077
>Bruce is so arrogant too learn from other disciples

Bruce learned from many reputable people in hong kong and filtered everything out that didnt work for him

>>1947475
>and filtered everything out that didnt work for him
He filtered out the stuff that didn't work for him under the circumstances in which he used and tested them in.

>>1947507
Yeah which was street fighting/challenges. JKD was just his on personal mma.

he actually won with wc once and fractured a guys face

https://sports.vice.com/ca/article/bruce-lee-vs-wong-jack-man-fact-fiction-and-the-birth-of-the-dragon

>>1947523
>Yeah which was street fighting/challenges.
Whether or not that was true, not all street fighting/challenges are the same.

>>1947559
>not all street fighting/challenges are the same

They are all equally as dangerous. A novice or untrained fighter can still beat a trained one and also they can be extremely unpredictable. Also this was the culture of the time, most of yip mans students did it and other schools too

>>1947467
What you are all MA today, today kickboxing + wrestling is what all professional fighters use, no matter what martial art he training before, in the octagon he use these two, I don't enter in the point if good or not, only work.

And is viable, the problem is bad history of the art, if you training in sifu Marcos Almeida dojo (Pernambuco, brasil) you have a amazing training and are able to fight very good, sifu li hok ki iden, sifu Izzo... well , good.

Chinese martial arts have problems because of the brucexploitation, bad translations/cultural differences, butt say "all are ineffective " is very poor knowledge, in old K1 have a lot of fighters with tai chi background, hung gar / choy lay have strong fighters in South America and Asia, have lay tay and koshou, etc.

And have lots of martial arts with the same problems today, judo is a joke today, muay thay change a lot in past 15 years, savate is kickboxing today, even JJB is not the same since master Helio die.

>>1947475
>"learned from many reputable people in Hong Kong"
Like?????

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>>1947566
wanting to be spoonfed

>>1947523
JKD is only a few words in notebook how even Bruce lee don't give a fuck.

And he fight only one time (even I have a much greater street fight experience), and maybe all this is just a lie from this guy to make some money.

>>1947569
No you're just uninformed and dumb you didnt even read the link above

At a party a pommy git was telling me how he did WT and how awesome it was and how he doesnt like to show off at parties coz he always shows people up.
Never insisting, he said he wanted to show me his skills. 2v1. To demonstrate the awesomenes of WT.

So trying to slap the git, gave it a go, and yeah, it was impressive enough. Bounced the two of back.

But he wouldn't shut the duck up about it. Like his demonstration was defining proof. 2hours later he wanted to show off again. But this time I wrapped him up and tackled him to the ground and pretended to punch him style. I was yelling like corpse grinder, coz its funny. He didn't take it too well. He was pulling my hair the instant I started taking him down.
His style failed.

>>1947571
1) pay respect kid, I not a effeminate how read vice
2) stop act like a idiot and study
3) use fucking common sense

>>1947611
You must be low IQ. That article was done by a published author. I read books and understand what I am talking about. You have no knowledge of bruce's involvement in the martial art world and his relationships with the chinatowns in Hong Kong and in California.

>>1947566
His dad and his dad learned from Liang Zi Peng. His dad also introduced him to Shao han sheng who studied shaolin kung fu and was a Jing Wu graduate. According to Dan Inosanto Bruce taught tai chi, praying mantis style so he was familiar and learned in styles other than wing chun.

>>1947814
In the martial arts world he was known for fighting, the students of yip man say he fought a lot and caused trouble, he was so controversial on his martial arts going against the traditional, that's why people challenged him a lot


https://sports.vice.com/en_uk/article/photos-of-bruce-lee-and-the-early-martial-arts-culture-of-san-francisco-bay

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>>1948066
Also I want to say Bruce had been street fighting from age 12-19. He was sent to a new school st Xavier college in Hong Kong but still kept on fighting. At st Xavier college he was caught fighting by the schools boxing coach and joined the boxing team at his high school. I don't know if he actually won the rumored boxing tournament but he was definitely on the team and was mentored by Edward muss (the boxing coach).

Outside of high school he was still fighing and even fighing his wing chun elders (they didn't like it) he was kind of disrespectful against anyone who wasn't yip man or his appointed instructors. He was causing so much trouble they looked into his background and found out he was quarter white and threw him out. Yip man still liked him a lot and arranged for him to still be privately tutored by William cheung and well known street fighter Wong shun Leung. Wong and his students became active in "beimo" (wing chun street fighting/rooftop fighting). this also gave popularity to wing chun. Bruce didn't like the idea of belts or ranked systems like that so he often challenged masters and even when he came to the United States. If you read that article you will see how even in the u.s he was still fighting with the china town members saying "these old tigers have no teeth". He was extremely controversial with his articles that he put in papers he was so renegade.

>>1947565
>in the octagon he use these two
Surely he used his knowledge and training of other martial arts to defend against techniques and tactics from those respective martial arts. Therefore, he didn't only use wrestling and kickboxing.

>>1940137
TAAAAAAAKE MEEEEEEE ONNNNNNNNN

No one seems to like Fighttips around here but consider this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXg_zR8KeME

>>1940137
Master Wong works

>>1947430
Linda Lee is the only person who says Bruce won. WJM never said one way or the other, citing some agreement of secrecy, but offered a public rematch once Bruce started making claims

>>1947568
> makes dubious claim
> refuses to provide support
I dare you to do this when you reach high school and have to write a paper

>>1949081
> william cheung

Stop right there, pls

>>1949491
Wong shun Leung though, very reputable street fighter and actually considers wc a fighting skill unlike ip chun who considers it a health regime

>>1949486
Read>>1948066
>>1947523

Bruce made him tap that was aknowledged by both sides

>>1949490
Bruce's dad was a famous opera singer who taught him tai chi and also introduced him to a famous tai chi master and jing wu graduate

https://books.google.com/books?id=5FppBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=bruce+lee+the+complete+book+of+yiquan&source=bl&ots=DkD4FzPHGc&sig=5cLvpI2p_k-iKWALjHJ2EOKc4GE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif_8aR6p_QAhWh34MKHZccApMQ6AEIIDAB#v=onepage&q=bruce%20lee%20the%20complete%20book%20of%20yiquan&f=false

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>>1949714
And he wasn't that anti-wing chun pic related

He was more about freestyle than anything.

>>1940955
If traditional Chinese martial arts are so good, then why has a country with over a billion people never produced a single notable MMA fighter?

>>1950044
From 1943-1989 martial arts were completely banned from practice in china. This caused a surge in practicing though kata and reduced martial application. Not only that, the Chinese did not adopt new techniques from other countries which made them behind as far as fighting. There is sanshou, which is a hybrid of traditional Chinese martial arts, Muay Thai, and other sport arts with an emphasis on kicking. Overall China was defanged for so long it will take a while for them to catch up to the rest of the world.

>>1950078
This, today is easy see a good Kung fu/kuoshu in taywan than continental china or Hong Kong

Why do people still fall for martial arts memes?

>>1950078
The Chinese were more street fighting than tournament fighting

They have the tradition of street fighting/ challenging dojos. Also Chung le and Yi long? I still haven't seen any mma fighter challenge and beat the shaolin fighters, probably try best representation of traditional Kung fu

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_in_China

The Japanese and Koreans also give demonstrations too so this is not exclusive to the Chinese, Mas Oyama gave demonstrations but Bruce only gave demonstrations to show and stress that they are useless and ineffective in real combat. Bruce studied the science of street fighting and ultimately changed his art to mma where as Oyama kept it on karate.

Does anyone here practice any Kung fu?

>>1950044
https://dynastyclothingstore.wordpress.com/2013/02/01/where-are-the-chinese-fighters-why-mma-has-not-flourished-in-chinese-society-long-read-with-videos/

>>1950420
Chuan Fa and Jian Fa practitioner here

>>1950495
What do you think about internal martial arts?

>>1950796
Great for staying limber and understanding power generation. I know some basics of wudang internals, but the sifu at my kwoon that trained at wudang shan is a proponent for "internal alchemy".

>>1950845
Nice, do you have chi? I use to read a lot about internal martial arts and I use to meditate, I had it getting stronger but I never knew a master so I never knew what to do with it so I stopped.

>>1950962
Everything has chi. Meditation and other cultivation techniques just make you more sensitive in being able to feel it.

>>1951076
Yeah but people who are not sensitive often have weak chi because they haven't adjusted to a Taoist lifestyle, if you life a Taoist lifestyle (practice Kung fu, eat for fuel and for the season ect) it makes your chi stronger and that is when you can start to use it. I got to that point but I stopped because I didn't want to damage myself. If you leave a build up of chi anywhere it's bad for you.

>>1945824
>thread-ing your own post
kys famalamadingdong

>>1951102
I think you drank a bit too much Kool-Aid

>>1950495
In the end that doesn't say much, the excuses are communism but taiwan exists; being too close minded which could be correct*; being genetically disadvantaged but even they say japan should suffer the same effects; having a bad diet but even they say that for chinese-americans that isn't the case; the idea that the parents see martial arts as bullshit which could be legit but I mean, aren't they full of martial artists?
And the jet lag thing is silly

*I think it connects to the boxer rebellion, how china didn't realize just how much more powerful the external world was. As a nation I think they have so much to think about just only in their subcontinent that they forget a world around them exists. Japan is the polar opposite for adapting western values and making them theirs since the start of the 20th century and for having an entire country of mountains.

>>1951111
Nah, If you get a chi massage and he leaves too much chi in your liver or heart there can be damage.

>>1951111
I don't understand why you would say I drank kool aid everything I said was correct you are just ignorant. Read a book sometime

>>1951118
>>1951146
You trolls are just cute. My understandings on chi come from students that spent five years training at this Wudang academy: http://www.wudanggongfu.com/ (there are multiple schools that teach on the mountain). Chi is a continuously flowing energy, your organs aren't batteries.

>>1951153
I'm the same guy. I will say I never had formal training on internal martial arts but I've read a ton of books and yes chi sensitivity is a thing but if you are not being taught about the dangers and safety of using your chi you are in trouble and can injure yourself, make you're you're not getting mc dojoed.

>>1951161
Fuuuuuck guys I just channeled my chi through my katana and it came back as lightning and my hand exploded do not recommend

>>1951662
HA!

>>1951662
If you leave bio electricity or energy in your brain or organ its bad, they have to flow in a certain way look at the acupuncture/chi chart

See in the video how the guy touches one part of the guys body but makes his arms move like that? It's like he is into the computer and is messing with the energy connecting it. If you leave too much energy in a path you can cause a blockage or things like that

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3F3ovb2kZ9Q

>>1951873
That looks so bullshit, also funny how he finally comes out with the "I changed idea I won't show this anymore forever so you can't test it"

>>1952270
Because it's an ascended art reserved only for people who really want it and can really appreciate it. Not everyone wants to be in the mainstream shallow kid

>>1952410
ascended art? Wow. I'll give you the whole mainstream bit, but do you know how difficult it is to use things like wing chun practically? and then if you walk around talking about chi to westerners, you sound crazy.

>>1941093
He meant that a lot of styles "look good" but aren't actually good for fighting. They either take too long to wind up and get the move out, or there isn't enough power behind them to actually do any damage, and rather than this being a trait from one practitioner it's a thing that is taught and recommended by the masters.

Essentially, trying to look good while fighting, instead of fighting to actually win.

>>1952484
it is an ascended art because you heal others from your Kung fu and meditation skills, and this isn't exclusive to China and there is even a national tai chi/qigong day. If you see the beginning of the video he was a tai chi teacher at a ymca.

>>1940920
Everybody have fun tonight.

>>1952557
My mistake he wasn't teaching at the ymca but tai chi/qi gong teachers do

>>1940263
>can't generate enough power compare to other fighting styles,

I'd disagree with that. I learn Wing Chun from the Duncan Leung lineage, and I don't learn a move without my Sifu showing me how to put power behind it. And believe me, there is power.

The problem with Wing Chun is the same problem Western democracies have; we're too nice and forgiving. Too many charlatans and blowhards and frauds put up a Wing Chun sign and teach garbage. It's damn shame.

>>1940920
Lol

>>1952742
I'm sorry, you're full of shit.

I've wrestled guys who are ten times stronger than I am and I know what it means to get my ass kicked. I also know what its like to kick someones ass easily, and I can tell you, whatever the fuck you know there is someone out there that can beat it out of you. To think you can beat someone without pressure testing is extremely foolhardy.

You may be the worlds best wing chun practitioner. What happens if you get on the ground with a subpar brazilian jujustu guy? You get your ass kicked, that's what.

Your sticky hands is the best in the world. What happens when you get hit by an amateur boxer who spars every week?

You've learned economy of motion, directness, using little strength, and you can break an opponents strength. How do you fare when a muay thai practitioner breaks you down?

I'll give you this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxIiIcmFOkU

But for the most part most Chinese arts end like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB169ke1oao

>>1952742
This guy was a second generation ip man student. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc0Gt_M16lM

Guess he didn't whip out his power generation.

>>1940137
Because someone invented the sport of boxing in the last few hundred years.

FYI; older isn't always better

Although some styles of Kung Fu are still very noteworthy, and participating in any form of physical development always puts an individual above those who don't

As or which styles are the best, it all depends on how you train, and how determined you are.

It just happens styles with a higher intensity weed out the weaklings, so you tend to see stronger competition in styles that require more of the fighter.

>>1950078
Maoism, not even once

>>1954097
You need to know some grappling but that doesn't mean wing chun isn't good for striking. And wing chun > boxing because boxing has just hands wing chun has that plus a little grappling and kicks.

>>1952410
>it's an art only for a select few. If you're skeptical you can't experience it.

Cult mentality, folks.

>>1958043
Most secret societies or schools of spirituality and that nature operate in a secretive conservative manner. Especially if it is thousands of years old. Sorry they don't think your average westerner needs to know about chi.

>>1945242

This 100%

>>1959264
Anon is right on the money here but western slobs expect to be mass fed enlightening and wisdom alongside their micky d

>>1959348
wew, all "secret masters" in kung fu get their shit beat in even by wing chun practitioners, the only thing they're masters at is "funneling chi" which only works when they have a semi-mannequin in front of them that won't even try to hurt them otherwise they'll have to stop being their students.
Only if it's open to the public can it be determined whether it works or not, go ahead and keep it secret but don't get mad when people question its functionality

>>1959378
Right....

>>1959378
That's unfair to say, there are probably some internal martial artists good at fighting but it is primarily used for health, balence and core. Also you can increase your defense, your core will be strong, you will be comfortable with your body weight and balenced, (if you can use your chi to raise your body temperature at will you probably have a stronger mental connection). Definitely learning it can help somewhat to your future combat. It is probably better to learn external styles though.

Go to the China towns and you will see the old people at the parks doing tai chi, sometimes with their sword. Kung fu has its roots in warfare, that is something to consider.

>>1959378
Also I will say it is also available to the public they have national tai/ qi gong day and teachers at gyms but chi can't be measured with today's technology, the only thing they can prove is the raising in body temperatures and things like that. Also there are stories of esp and things of that nature. Chi or the spirit is found all over the world and is still relevant in the world despite modern technology and medicine. Chinese medicine is still used today even though some of it is extreme it's still used.

>>1945242
>It's sad really.
What's sad is that you didn't spar so you think everything is useless.

It's like you can't apply basic critical thinking skills or you're shitposting. Since this is 4chan, you're shitposting.

>>1959378
internals are an engine. an engine is pretty useless without a good car body around it

>>1959413
https://youtu.be/WZu5VUOsBM8?t=40m7s

>>1959599
NO NO NO. no teacher who knows what they are talking about will tell you its anything but an usual set of body mechanics which takes a lot of conditioning and retraining the body. It can be measured in the form of force generation.

raising your body temperature is a byproduct of certain breathing techniques that are not unique to martial arts but are found in several meditative traditions

>>1961608
I would say its deeper than that, the end goal for any internal martial artist is chi cultivation. Yes there is body mechanics but i don't think there can be any tai chi without "chi".

>>1961622
If your understanding of chi is mystical then your totally off base. and I dont care how amazing your Chinese teacher is, he his off base too. I am quite familiar with the traditional understanding of such things, its just an outdated model. especially here in the west were we have no culutal basis for such things

pulling silk, understanding six harmonies, six directions. microcosmic orbit, dantien rotation

important to understand,. bio-mechanically what is happening is very very different

>>1940137
There's this guy at my judo dojo who did wing chun for a few years.
First thing he attended was an MMA class. He went against me first for some sparring (im a judo yellow belt) and I threw him morote Seoi Nage over and over because he had no idea how to defend against it. He kept trying to get into my range, dart in and out and just tired himself out. Like, whatever dude, ill just block your shitty punches from that sort of range

>>1954105
>An art that has a similar/same ruleset with gloves and rings and practiced under that ruleset for longer than the art it's competing against does better in that ruleset.
>this is surprising

>>1950044
MMA isn't the be all end all of martial arts and is far from a martial arts litmus test

>>1961655
My understanding of chi is accurate. Did you learn at a western school where they say chi doesn't actually exist and it is just body mechanics? The end goal of any Taoist/scholar warrior or internal martial artist is internal chi/jing/Shen (the three treasures) cultivation.

>>1962736
Do you think Chinese guys are the only ones with legitimate lineages and real skill in this?

Do you know what fasica is, or anatomy trains? do you know they line up with traditional "Chi" pathways in at least 90% of cases?

>>1963032
No, but they have been using it for thousands of years and I don't think anyone else really incorporated spirituality into a lifestyle as much as them. They tied it into their architecture, diet, medicine, combat ect. I'm not a racist and I don't think only they can do it but they have used it more than anyone else in their daily life and culture.

And I didn't know that, you can elaborate on that if you want sounds interesting.

>>1941025
bruce lee was an actor with an entourage that was paid to make him look demi-godly. nobody but butthurt midget chinks think he had an above average body or was the GOAT fighter

I guess sly stallone is a legendary fighter too because his movies said so.

>>1963453
You're a idiot. Bruce's dad had him in acting because he was a famous opera singer. Just because your parents were famous and put you in acting doesn't mean it should over shadow your whole adult life. Bruce was on the streets of Hong Kong as a kid and teen and had many problems. He only got into professional adult acting at age 25. Not to mention in Chinese culture you become a scholar warrior meaning you do the arts, literature and combat which Lee excelled in.

>>1963470
>BRUCE WAS GOD FUCK YOU WHITE MAN ASIANS ARE THE TRUE MASTER RACE! ASIANS ARE NOT BETA MALES WE ARE ALPHAS ALL WOMEN WANT CHINA MAN!!!

shave your pube stache and wipe your tears off with it, chang

>>1963506
If you hate Asians so much why are you on 4chan. Everything being discussed is fact, maybe you are triggered? Prove me wrong on anything I have said

>>1963521
>r/asianmasculinity

>>1963534
Nah you should go to Reddit. It's probably already in your search history.

>>1962284
>muh eye pokes

>>1963541
>r/asianmasculinity

Static tunnel vision wing chun doesnt work. Although there are a lot of moves that you can and should take. I like the foot work and distance control. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXg_zR8KeME

>>1963549
I am not even Asian fucking retard

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>>1963440
Most internal arts only have a clear lineage going back a few hundred years.

The Japanese actually have internal lineages
to, most extint but some like shindo yoshin ryu and daito ryu alive.

I would also say that your idea that the Chinese were uniquely spiritual does not hold up to snuff, look at the Indians or even pre-modern Europe. spirituality was everything.


anatomy trains or Myofascial Meridians are based on long strips of facia that run throughout the body, and the now theoretical idea that they are an essential component to how we move.

Now while they closely correspond to the meridians of Chinese medicine there are some differences, and in internal work there is still not a really clear model, but it also probably involves the skeleton (frame) and various muscle groups, particularly the legs and abdominals. The triggering of certain muscles groups and the somewhat counter intuitive relaxation of others in essential

shindo yoshin ryu describes it this way

"The greater benefit of this type of body training is that it inculcates an integrated form of muscular power rather than one that is sectional or isolated. "

"Further exploration of our omote kata teaches how to create pathways that allow us to re-channel energy (applied force) away from our center of gravity. The utilization of structural alignment and controlled relaxation to re-channel forces so they travel thru our bodies and into our base, making our base stronger and more able to resist opposing forces without the accompanying tension employed in an unconnected body structure. "

4chan thinks Facebook links are spam so just search for nairiki no gyo

>>1963588
Okay I will check it out, and I never said the Chinese were unique to spirituality I was saying they were more advanced than everyone else really, can you argue that anyone else made it as widespread in their culture? What do you think about the YouTube video posted itt of the Chinese Doctor? Also have you ever taken any formal internal martial art lessons?

>>1963658
> I was saying they were more advanced than everyone else really, can you argue that anyone else made it as widespread in their culture?

Yes, furthermore I dont see how you can argue they are. Nor do I consider spirituality good within itself, I am an atheist.

Ive never trained in a traditional ICMA, nor do I have any interest in it. To much secrets, to many teachers who dont know their stuff. If I was going to pick up an ICMA it would by something like I liq chuan which is based out of New York, clear teaching method, only two forms, students who are actually learning what their teacher can do.

>>1945242
Are not most Asian fighting arts nothing more then fancy dancing?

Like karate you sign up your kid and he thinks is cool
> kung fu movies YEY
However all the moves are impractical and 100% useless in reality.
Like even when i was a kid I realized that karate was total bullcrap.
You move in these matches in pre made poses and "dance" with your partner until one of you "wins".

Ann form of experimentation will show that the sloping, dragon pose or whatever can be extremely easy countered with someone who has a brain and is not forced to use only the karate dance poses to "attack".

Pictured idiotic pose, IRL countered by someone running behind your back and kicking you (you have ZERO possibility to rotate yourself).

I did get the impression that karate and all other oriental martial arts are complete bull crap.
You might find some gem however its unlikely berried under a shit pile of:

>WE are japaneses/chiness and we teach you the same thing we where thought with no experimentation or checking for 500 years without thinking we are autistic like this; look at our hieroglyphs that are outdated crap and we use them today.

>I teach you shit to get you to pay me money, best scam ever.

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>>1945242
>>1963690
Forgot picture

>>1963670
>Yes, furthermore I dont see how you can argue they are. Nor do I consider spirituality good within itself

Well I have already stated some of my arguments, you say it can be argued but you didn't really list anyone. India is not as advanced as China, the west doesn't incorporate personalized spirituality into their architecture or medicine. Also to argue the worth of spirituality is a whole different argument. Historically I think China is the oldest country/culture to continuously practice, refine and expand its spiritual practices, it is also high in population.

>>1963694
>Historically I think China is the oldest country/culture to continuously practice, refine and expand its spiritual practices,

That would be India. Things like Yoga go back millennia, parts of Hinduism date back from before the Aryan invasion.

You will find that most premodern societies integrated spirituality into architecture, medicine and other aspects of life. Its very hard to separate spiritualism from proto-science, as you can see by reading occult books like the works of Cornelius Agrippa.

From a marital arts perspective one must be careful to understand such things in light of the beliefs of the time and a functional training model rather than something that actually exists.

>>1963725
>that would be India

India sucks compared to China. The Chinese medicine, diet, architecture, combative arts are far more sophisticated and developed than India.

>You will find that most premodern societies integrated spirituality into architecture, medicine and other aspects of life. Its very hard to separate spiritualism from proto-science

Not personalized or as developed as the Chinese or Asians because even the Japanese have their own version of feung shui. The Chinese arguably (not seeing any strong arguments against it) have the most detailed spiritual system/lifestyle that has endured for hundreds of years in a high population. Also the Japanese invasion where they destroyed a lot of schools and then Mao.

Do you really think India is as advanced and sophisticated as China? I mean they have some things right but overall I don't think so.

>From a marital arts perspective one must be careful to understand such things in light of the beliefs of the time

Well back then human power and skill ruled, more was given to warfare because you didn't have the gun.

>>1963762
>India sucks compared to China. The Chinese medicine, diet, architecture, combative arts are far more sophisticated and developed than India.

What do you base this on? are you familiar with Idian history or aesthetic traditions? Do you realize Yoga itself contains internals that are every bit as developed as the Chinese, indeed its possible that is where they originated.

>
India sucks compared to China. The Chinese medicine, diet, architecture, combative arts are far more sophisticated and developed than India.

your not seeing any argument because that is essentially an opinion which cannot proven or disproven. Its entirely a matter of taste.

Of course china today is far more advanced than India, a few hundred or even a thousand years ago, no I do not. China actually owes alot of the spiritual heritage to India, not just in the form of Buddhism, but forms of meditation and other knowledge those Buddhist monks brought with them.

>Well back then human power and skill ruled, more was given to warfare because you didn't have the gun.

What ruled was good logistics, good weapons, and good tactics. once you have armies in the thousands individual valor plays only a small role. Chinese marital arts in particular, or at least those that survive today were more civilian focused than many Indian and Japanese martial arts, though that was also a matter of degree. Martial arts tend to flourish during peace time and are then adapted to war, not vice versa. While they were often created by warriors they tended to be developed by their peace time successors.

>>1963856
I said India had some things right but overall no. They cannot compete with Chinese architecture, medicine or combat. spiritually China is the most developed and sophisticated, you're not proving me wrong. Even the Hindu architecture cannot compete with China even though it is older than Taoism.

>What ruled was good logistics

Not only that but culture too, culture with the logistics and strategy. And it wasn't just black and white like peace time/war, in those days at least from the Tang Dynasty there was a constant development of martial arts and you had to deal with things like bandits and other stuff.

>>1963970
> you're not proving me wrong.

Because its a subjective judgement, I cant prove wrong your personal tastes.I can only say there is no objective basis for them, which there is not. To be frank you dont seem to know a lot about Asian cultures other than China

> in those days at least from the Tang Dynasty there was a constant development of martial arts and you had to deal with things like bandits and other stuff.

no martial lineage survives from the tang dynasty. They are at most a few hundred years old. While most ICMA claim some link to military or warfare, they were mostly the development of peacetime. This is a fact.

>>1963691
Nigga that isn't even a karate move, the movie creators made it up

>>1964000
Not really it is objective fact China's culture and art is far superior to Indias. At the end of the day China was cleaner and more developed than India.

>claim link to military or warfare

Because monks and Warriors were intertwined. Even since the Tang Dynasty you had the poet who was also a swordsman Li Po. Since the Tang Dynasty there was a constant development of martial arts by generals, secret societies, gangsters, monks, clan members and imperial Knights. By the time of the Quinn dynasty the monk and warrior were one.

>>1964058
>see one example and decide it was the norm: the post
Also nobody here knows anything about pre-colonization indian culture me and probably the guy you're arguing with included, how can you pretend that it's inferior to another?

>>1964082
Maybe it really is subjective but I feel that the Chinese have taken things more seriously. I guess it is the Hindu temples vs the Chinese pagodas

> At the end of the day China was cleaner and more developed than India.

You have any academic sources or empirical data to base that on? Besides I thought we were talking about spiritual life

>>1964058
You dont seem to understand how lineage works. Martial knowledge gets lost all the time, because people decide its no longer relevant, or the guy who knows it dies without passing it on. Unless you read classical Chinese martial arts texts (if many from that period exist which I doubt) and academically compare them to modern arts there is no way of knowing what the relationship between them is. To assume that modern arts are some direct development from Tang period arts is just an example of a post hoc fallacy.

It would be like claiming medieval Italian swordsmanship is an offshoot of Roman swordsmanship

>>1964104
pagodas are a development from Indian Stupa. Its a Chinese take on an Indian idea

>>1964114
The Chinese spirituality especially Taoism promotes cleanliness as one of the highest priorities, India today still has designated shitting streets.

>muh lineage

It is impossible to trace the history of martial arts in any linear fashion

>>1964116
India was exposed and influenced a lot more than China was

>>1964139
>It is impossible to trace the history of martial arts in any linear fashion

No more impossible than any other aspect of history. and if we are talking history and historical development then muh lineage is one on the most important factors.

>The Chinese spirituality especially Taoism promotes cleanliness as one of the highest priorities, India today still has designated shitting streets.

Are we talking about modern China/India or historically?

>India was exposed and influenced a lot more than China was

And almost all of the influences of China come from India, even the Chinese admit this and the influence is probably a lot bigger than they admit.

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>>1964157
Stupas are inferior to pagodas, they improved it.

pic related

>>1964157
>No more impossible than any other aspect of history

It is impossible to cover all the martial arts and their history you have no idea how secret some of them are and some of the secret societies are still around.

>Are we talking about modern China/India or historically?

>During the early 14th century, it was recorded that in modern-day Zhejiang province alone there was an annual manufacturing of toilet paper amounting in ten million packages of 1,000 to 10,000 sheets of toilet paper each.[1] During the Ming dynasty (1368–1644 AD), it was recorded in 1393 that an annual supply of 720,000 sheets of toilet paper (two by three feet in size) were produced for the general use of the imperial court at the capital of Nanjing.[

The chinese invented toilet paper in the middle ages, the indians still are still not fully using toilet paper

>>1964218
>Stupas are inferior to pagodas, they improved it.

At this point I had to go back and read your posts since your point has morphed over time. How does advanced architecture or toilet paper (which was mostly used by the upper class) have anything to do with spiritual or marital arts development?

art tends to get more complicated over time.

>It is impossible to cover all the martial arts and their history you have no idea how secret some of them are and some of the secret societies are still around

None of that invalidates what I am saying. family and secret lineages only make matters a little more grey and complicated. Most historical issues are grey and complicated. My statement on the tang still stands.

There are a number of ways to analyze the development of martial arts and whether they relate to their stated goals hoplologist do this , There are academics who study these issues as a discipline.

>>1964218
>Greeks are bankrupt so the papal states were better than the byzantine empire

>>1964274
Cleanliness. Promoted heavily in Taoism. China is home to millions of martial artists who live in Taoist and Confucian values.

>my tang statement

Its not so much about the lineage but what changed the arts. Over time they have changed because they were used by scholar warriors. Lao Tzu was a reowned swordsman, Confucius held the title of Leader of the Knights. Yes things changed but not always because of what you think.

>>1964288
Not a valid comparison, they still have designated shitting streets

>>1964395
>Lao Tzu was a renowned swordsman,

We know hardly anything about Lao Tzu besides legends and myths.

> Yes things changed but not always because of what you think.


I will never understand why people confuse a continuous martial tradition in a country with a continuous martial art. They are not the same thing.

The fact that some guys were practicing swordsmanship a thousand years ago in china does not imply a direct connection with the swordsmanship of today. That simply is not how it works

martial arts change for a lot of reasons, mostly social. There is a lot of reinventing the wheel, even today when information is a lot more accessible.

But as things stand the Chinese arts of today are not more than a few hundred years old. Without a doubt they descend from older arts and material which isn't around today. They are almost certainly radically different from those arts.

>>1963762
Dude, you can't be Asian no matter how hard you try. Get off china's nuts.

>>1964476
It changed mostly because of guns, the Japanese and Mao.

In the boxer rebellion the martial artists tried everything they could even charms but they were gunned down. The Japanese also invaded and destroyed a lot. Mao later destroyed more. But the connection is not completely lost only 200 years ago it was still in tact

>>1964505
I can accept the cultural aesthetics though, China Japan Korea are all beautiful countries.

>>1964532
The modern arts yes, since the boxer rebellion the Chinese martial arts have suffered greatly.

But if your trying to suggest that they were the same and unchanging in essence before that point your talking nonsense.

The current arts are only a few centuries old. Period. This is a fact no amount of pseudo intellectual wrangling with get you out of this

>>1964626
When did I ever say the arts never changed?

>>1964626
I said unchanged in essence which you seem to imply.

You seem to have a problem with the idea teh Chinese arts we know today are only a few hundred years old

>>1964679
And what would make you think that? My stance on its relevancy and usage?

>>1964690
>And what would make you think that?

>It is impossible to trace the history of martial arts in any linear fashion


>It is impossible to cover all the martial arts and their history you have no idea how secret some of them are and some of the secret societies are still around.


>Its not so much about the lineage but what changed the arts. Over time they have changed because they were used by scholar warriors. Lao Tzu was a reowned swordsman, Confucius held the title of Leader of the Knights. Yes things changed but not always because of what you think.

pretty much everything you said

>>1964696
Yeah nothing there disagrees with the change and destruction caused by the guns, Japanese and Mao

>>1964139
>The Chinese spirituality especially Taoism promotes cleanliness as one of the highest priorities, India today still has designated shitting streets.
/int/ memes thread? You know your 'clean' Chinese people cook in raw sewage, and smoke like chimneys, which probably would be a bigger problem if they hadn't shit up the air so badly they die of lung cancer at the ripe old age of 8.

>>1964748
Idk man they invented toilet paper a thousand five hundred years ago and smoking isn't really that bad

>>1964728
No one denies that the boxer rebellion and more recent upheavals had a negative impact include some changes.

what we deny is that there is a direct connection between tang dynasty practices and what they were doing right before the boxer rebellion

>>1964814
Yeah but you don't have to go that far back, you're forgetting the Qing dynasty 1644-1911.

>>1964825
Yes that is the period many of the current arts were created, a few hundred years ago

>>1964843
No that is pre destruction. One of the best scholar warriors lived during that time his name was Qianlong who was trained in both shaolin and wudang and he made the shaolin and wudang war with each other. And he fought too he had personal duels.

>>1964859
What do you mean by "pre-destruction" its before the boxer rebellion yes, but most of the CMA we know of today like taichi were developed during this period.

Certainly the revolutions in china as well as the modern demands have reeked havoc on their transmission to the modern day. A lot of them are probably shadows of what they once were, but there are still unbroken lines.

Frankly I am not even sure what your arguing. You seem to change your point randomly and I cant follow

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>>1964784
At least the Indians manage to stick to their designated streets.

>>1964909
Public style tai chi is recent but there are still ways to learn some of the old temple style. Also I am not really arguing just conversing, maybe someone else can give insight into our conversation..

>>1965745
Maybe they were racist

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>>1965807
They probably were. It doesn't change the fact that Chinese people defecate publicly just about anywhere, and eat raw sewage.

>>1965851
New York City too, sometimes in nyc you can go to the subway and see human shit and urine. Places with a high population often have hygene or sanitary issues.

>>1964909
>Frankly I am not even sure what your arguing. You seem to change your point randomly and I cant follow

don't worry about it, it's just buttmad CMA guys swarming in to try and defend their sacred cows long after they got turned to ground beef. No points, just bringing up legends and unverifiable chinese hearsay accounts and the same like 5 videos of fights between two dudes that don't know what the fuck they're doing and the CMAer happens to win.

>>1964909
Pre destruction meaning pre guns, boxer rebellion, pre Japanese, pre Mao

All of those eroded and destroyed the arts and meaning of the scholar warrior. A good animation of the Japanese invasion is Fist of Fury with Bruce Lee that's a reason why he is famed because he birthed Chen Zhen and promoted Chinese pride.

>>1965965
I'm not that guy and seen him post on /fit/ too. I actually look at things from an objective stance. You cannot deny history and culture. I mean what are your points even? Everything I say is from books by known authors. I can drop authors what can you do? Nothing. You come to 4chin for fact instead of visiting your local library.

>>1965968
Confucians would sometimes criticize people for practicing marital arts and perusing a military career.

"One does not turn good iron into nails, one does not turn good men into soldiers"

Most martial artists were peasants who practiced a local art from their village, or members of a secret society or militia.

>>1966231
Confucius was definitely for the 6 arts and thought that cultural prestige helped in war. You have to be a scholar warrior doing art, writing and combat.

>>1963470
>was on the streets of Hong Kong as a kid and teen and had many problems
>Bruce's dad had him in acting because he was a famous opera singer.

your a fucking idiot

>>1965872
People don't gather that up, and use it as cooking oil, you spaz.

>>1966498
dont conflate Confucius with Confucianism, particularity the later schools which were popular during the Qing era.

>>1966508
That doesn't mean anything, Bruce had personal issues and was drawn to the streets. When he was young he was fraile and had a medical issue and was bullied by British students so he later formed a gang. When he was 12 he was carrying chains and knives on him, Hong Kong is basically the Asian equivalent of Nyc so lots of urban gangs and fighting. He had to transfer schools and began training in wing chun to street fight better. He was always fighting and ip mans son even called him "crazy fighter". Even in his new school, the schools boxing coach caught him fighting and got him to join the team. He fought a lot when he was in Hong Kong and when he had to leave he had to clear his name with the Kong Kong police because he was on a list.

One of his girlfriends recalls how he once fought 2 gangsters hitting them without warning because they attacked his gang once. Another girlfriend recalls how Bruce was extremely confident and was one of the only Asian guys that she knew that was proud to be Asian and was really masculine.

>>1966586
He himself argued that "if the people of distant lands do not submit, then the ruler must attract them by enhancing the prestige of his culture"

>>1965977
>I'm not that guy
>Everything I say
Nice slip up CMAfag

>>1966668
That has nothing to do with what I said

>>1965965
>two dudes that don't know what the fuck they're doing
Except they clearly did.

>>1963547
>>1962282

>>1941228
You're full of shit dude. Maybe you don't mean to be, but somebody filled you up with shit

>>1966819
>your full of shit
>doesn't present evidence to the contrary

>>1966747
That quote advocates a mixture of culture and strategy. "Indeed, martial association may have well inspired Confucius' definition of the ideal scholar. At the heart of his analects, he utilized the word "shi", his designation for a scholar, which meant "warrior". A shi was a fighter of high rank- he went on to battle in a war-chariot rather than on foot. Confucius' use of the word implied a person who would uphold the Tao (he used the word Tao to mean divine law) as valiantly as a warrior would. The term was eventually applied to all cultures people"

>>1966866
To all cultured people*

>>1966866
Who are you quoting? I was not familiar with any connection between shi and warriordom outside a japanese context.

And no that is not how I would interpret that quote .

IN any case many later Confucian scholars poo poo'ed martial endeavors and even Confucius expressed his contempt for soldiers in the quote I posted.

martial arts in China were associated with Taoism and Buddhism more than Confucianism, though they followed a very Confucian androgogy

>>1966976
I quoted Deng Ming Dao and that is exactly how he interpreted that quote as well. You should read his book

>>1967011
>Taoist and marital artist

Not exactly a academic or even neutral source. Whatever his martial or religious accolades

>>1967059
Wtf? Are you on crack or something? Still unable to understand the concept of a scholar warrior, and you're still wrong.

He's the author of eight books and his books have been translated in 15 different language. Get real kid

>>1967080
Academic, in other words associated with a college or institution of higher learning. writing books does not make you an academic, a higher degree from a University does. And no I do not consider any native Chinese system of education the equal of that.

being a practicing Taoist and a martial artists makes him qualified to write about those things, not to analyze Confucius in a historical context

I am very familiar with the concept of the warrior scholar, Bun and Bu.but I also know many martial artists with a few notable exceptions have been very uncritical analysts of history. The Taoists in particular have long been the rivals of Confucians at court, so a practicing Taoist would hardly be an unbiased source of commentary in this regard.

>ITT CMA defense squad brings up chinese myth, hearsay and philosophy
>still have zero to offer on CMA being glorified dance routines
>still insist something stuck in the past with no inclination to change is combatively relevant

>>1967365
/thread

>>1967365
>still have zero to offer on CMA being glorified dance routines
Now your just being willfully ignorant and obtuse
>still insist something stuck in the past
Your ignorant statement applies to a lot of TMA's that are still "combatively relevant"
>with no inclination to change
>what are the 100+ styles of kung fu that clearly show that it did

>>1967125
>Academic, in other words associated with a college or institution of higher learning

kill yourself

>being a practicing Taoist and a martial artists makes him qualified to write about those things, not to analyze Confucius in a historical context

double kill yourself

>Writing books does not make you an academic, a higher degree from a University does

Triple kill yourself, Do you know how many people didn't go to college and are still credible in their field? If youre going to do a internal martial art book you need to include history. That is not "out of bounds" for him. Lao Tzu and Confucius, Hua To, Li Po had all the principals of the scholar warrior. Confucius said flat out " The people of distant lands do not submit, then the ruler must attract them by enhancing the prestige of his culture". You use your culture as a weapon in war too. The six arts have been in practice all the way from the Zhou all the way to the Qing historical fact. And this was for everyone.

>>1968667

If you know anything about peer review or the differences between popular and academic writing you would agree with. me.

Some of my favorite writers on martial arts made horrible historical mistakes in their books. this is because they were martial artists and not historians. They were actually well informed in many respects, but they were not trained academics and did not critically study what they were writing in terms of the history of the arts

>>1969014
What are some of your favorite martial art authors and which one did you find to be wrong? If you're a martial artist learning the history and art go hand and hand. If you're going to express the Chinese combat or Japanese combat it isR essential to understand its history, at least the basics.

>>1969097
>If you're a martial artist learning the history and art go hand and hand.

Not really, learning legends and oral accounts is one thing, but evaluating those according to academic standards in another.

I have alot of Books, Robert Smith, Donn Draeger, Otake Risuke, and of course I have read interviews and articles by many marital artists. When it comes ot history most of them present accounts that I would consider inaccurate, or at least out of date. The worst were of course those who simply passed down stuff from their teacher which is completely outside the academic consensus, like Tokimune insisting his daito ryu goes back, through his father over eight hundred years. Martial arts is full of stuff like that if you dont critically evaluate

>>1964082
>pre-colonization indian culture
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2012/09/its-time-to-stop-mocking-indians-for.html?zx=21f0869b60adc218
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2012/09/its-time-to-stop-mocking-indians-for_30.html
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-mocking-indians-for.html
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-mocking-indians-for_885.html
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2013/01/its-time-to-stop-mocking-indians-for.html

>>1969190
Well that's true but Deng Ming Dao is talking about a broader topic and is accurate, also he also won awards for literature. I've read and have books done by people like Deng Ming Dao, That Nich Han, Tomas clearly, Waysun Liao. I usually read books done by shambala and turtle publishing. I remember I had zen and Japanese culture by Suzuki but I never got a chance to read it and sold it. For accuracy I just read about the same topic from different authors, sometimes you can see the contrast and see the middle ground.

>>1940137
Anon it's just Boxing with added blocks.
It does work but not alone.
Learn some Sambo on top of it.

Anyone able to reccomend a good chinese boxing manual?

Looking to do some training in a fighting GYM and need to get some guidelines.
I'm generally slow on my feet and quick with my hands so i decided to try out stuff like wing chung.

>>1974030
I found this

https://mywayofwingchun.com/downloads/

Let me know they are