Katas connections and origin in karate

>>1544801
Most of the core karate kata are also found in various southern Chinese martial arts like white crane. While there are several "Okinawan" things found in karate the base of the system was imported from china.

>>1544812
It's rather irrelevant since so far I have not found a single chinese form that resembles a kata that hasn't been brought to okinawa in the 20th century

>>1544821
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLog9TMFfo8

Things do not stay the exact same over hundreds of years.

>>1544828
That's the single exception I'm talking about, sanchin is from naha-te which is known to have ties with china.
Naha-te katas should generally have a chinese correspondent even though sanchin is the only one I've seen.
Shuri and Tomari te are a lot more blurry, even though they were influenced from chinese fighters around the 18th century, today it's hard to find any resemblance with chinese forms

But that's besides the point, even if Jion came from china, what's blurry is through whom it was passed down. It's generally called a tomari-te kata, but neither Matsumura nor Itosu learned tomari-te, yet Itosu lineages have the kata
A common link is Annan (chinese) who influenced both Matsumura and Tomari-te, but another kata is actually known to be connected with him while this one curiously isn't

>>1544848
Thats probably more a question for a board with researchers and academics

>>1544856
Researchers and academics need 6 months to get something that is 85% of the time true
Anons need one active thread to get something that is 75% of the time true

Also researchers and academics suck shit when there is little to work with

>>1544905
Thats ridiculous.

Do you have any idea how many martial arts myths have been overturned through recent research?

>>1544933
I wonder how they always fail to do anything conclusive though.
The less is known about something the more their guesses are as good as a normal guy's, only a group of normal guys arguing will get you something very close to the truth

>>1544949
again that is stupid, I am going to assume you have never taken a college level history course.

conclusivity comes from repeated tests which you cannot do on past events.

A group of normal people talking are far more likely to just repeat what they were told off hand or some outdated idea they learned in highschool

>>1544977
>I am going to assume you have never taken a college level history course.
lel no.
>conclusivity comes from repeated tests which you cannot do on past events
If you define conclusivity as something 100% correct.
What I mean is getting to the most plausible thing out of all the versions we can come up with, the group is going to come up with different ideas coming from different viewpoints and the ones that can be recognized as highly unlikely will stop appearing, unless they can't be completely debunked and get the occasion to shine if there are changes, while the versions that hold their ground the most will inevitably remain.
This kind of arguing is very limited when there are so many filters like each person's abilities, names, backgrounds, situations, that make the inspection of different opinions almost impossible.

>>1545020
That is what historians do, but they have the advantage of a consistent methodology, knowledge of primary sources and peer review but other people with the same qualifications.

>>1544801
It's generally believed to have come from Tomari-te so Itosu and Sokon might not have known it considering they're linked to Shuri-te. Also the answer is someone thought this sequence of movements was a nice way of passing down techniques and his students adopted it and repeated it over and over again until it stuck.

>>1545085
And what happens when there are no primary sources? Nothing gets done because no one can say things for sure

>>1545114
>Itosu and Sokon might not have known it considering they're linked to Shuri-te.
But it's in the shotokan and shito-ryu curriculums
Funakoshi didn't have any tomari-te instructors, although he learned some katas from Kenwa
Mabuni Kenwa doesn't seem to have had any tomari-te instructors either

Some shidokan schools seem to practice it, but Chosin Chibana seemed to be friends with Chotoku Kyan who actually practiced Tomari-te

>>1545159
What's to say it didn't wind up in Shotokan and Shito-Ryu curriculums because they were exposed to it by a practitioner of Shuri-te or even just someone who happened to know the kata and they happened to like it even though it wasn't recorded? It's just a kata.

See the problem here is that martial arts are prone to iffy documentation at best, a lot of it has been word of mouth and sucking off your teacher without question for the longest time and sources can be unreliable and amount to mildly educated guesses and hearsay. All this trying to find the One True Original Source of a form designed to pass down techniques anyone might've thought of seems pointless.

>>1545175
>What's to say it didn't wind up in Shotokan and Shito-Ryu curriculums because they were exposed to it by a practitioner of Shuri-te or even just someone who happened to know the kata and they happened to like it even though it wasn't recorded?
They didn't have the internet or practical cameras, to learn a kata you had to actually have it taught to you, also what's with the sudden appreciation of these katas (considering I say Jion for convenience but it's also Jitte and Jiin they learned)?

>pointless
My objective is understanding who the katas passed through to understand the changes they went through and thus their original purposes which get lost between modifications

And then the Pinan have some relatively clear Jiin elements, like the rotating hammer first and this thing https://youtu.be/A8WOdWebtwg?t=33s

>>1545281
Nevermind that thing, the pinan have a simple uchi-uke

>>1545159
>And what happens when there are no primary sources?

They use archeology

Bassai Dai/Passai intrigues me. I've heard some speculation it comes from Xing Yi's Lianhuan. I've studied both and can identify some similarities between them in terms of the emphasis of hip switching and counter-intuitive directional changes (something that the chinese 'song' of lianhuan emphasises from memory), but honestly the similarities are vague enough that im pretty convinced it's just wishful thinking on my part.

For those that don't know, a lot of Xing Yi teaches basics through five 'kihon' sets called the five elements (they are referred to as forms/equivalent of kata, but are a few moves long at most and are repeated up and down the training space in lines) wu xing lianhuan, or lianhuan for short, is 'the five elements linked together', which takes above moves and mixes them with others in more of your traditional kata format. Many older styles of xing yi don't have this, but given that it's one of the styles we can trace back farthest overall, even its younger permutations have a fair age on them. 'Hebei Xing Yi' is what is stereotypically though of as the modern form.

>>1550399
Looking at "BaJi Xiao" from Baji ch'uan I can see some similarities with tomari passai, the starting with "clasped" hands, the hand drawing a circle to catch the arm, that hand with the proximal phalanges out, the "manji-uke"
But like you said it's very vague, it's so easy to cherrypick similarities between things that are completely unrelated

>>1544801
stop talking about anime this is a wrestling forum.

>>1550399
A guy named Kwang Shang Fu could have brought passai to okinawa, he practiced Ch'uan Fa